EPT[Map] Torrasque - Page 6
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ROOTCatZ
Peru1226 Posts
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FabledIntegral
United States9232 Posts
On July 01 2010 05:36 XBLancer wrote: Tarrasque: Beast from D&D role-playing game http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tarrasque_(Dungeons_&_Dragons) Torrasque: Starcraft Hero Ultralisk unit that occasionally haunts my nightmares. http://starcraft.wikia.com/wiki/Torrasque Awesome map though, although wouldn't Terran have a huge advantage economically since they can use MULES? But they saturate the slowest so less workers...? Protoss can chrono and transfer most probes to the gold... but idk just speculation (Zerg can do the same in terms of fast expanding like normal and taking advantage of the natural). | ||
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Lucius2
Germany548 Posts
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FabledIntegral
United States9232 Posts
On July 01 2010 05:57 Lucius2 wrote: 1 permanent mule roughly equals 6 workers, well terran doesnt need to pay money+supply for these 6 workers zerg and protoss need to equalize with terran incomewise... it gets worse with more expansions and more orbital commdands... More expansions won't matter when you're going to be mining out your natural around the time you take your third most likely, since as soon as your natural is up you're going to work on saturating that before your main, and since a saturated natural mines out faster than a saturated main, your nat will be exhausted pretty quickly one would assume. You have to buy the initial orbital command and cut SCVs while doing it, remember SCV production is the *slowest* rate compared to Toss (chrono probes) and Zerg (very fast expand, build multiple drones from inject larvae). So I feel like even if Terran does garner an advantage from mules, it'll be slightly toned down from what ppl think. But it's all theorycraft. | ||
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Lucius2
Germany548 Posts
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FabledIntegral
United States9232 Posts
On July 01 2010 06:14 Lucius2 wrote: well ye scv production is the slowest idd, thing is: terran DOESNT need so many scvs because of the mule. he has to pay once 150 for orbital command and then basically gets 6 free workes (300mins, 6 supply). and to the point of getting mined out: theres always the possibility of flying a cc to a (gold) expo and drop tons of mules resulting in massive income without even dangering a single one of your scvs. You're not getting 6 free workers... stop saying that... | ||
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ItsTheFark
United States158 Posts
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MorroW
Sweden3522 Posts
On July 01 2010 06:14 Lucius2 wrote: well ye scv production is the slowest idd, thing is: terran DOESNT need so many scvs because of the mule. he has to pay once 150 for orbital command and then basically gets 6 free workes (300mins, 6 supply). and to the point of getting mined out: theres always the possibility of flying a cc to a (gold) expo and drop tons of mules resulting in massive income without even dangering a single one of your scvs. im no genious at math but i dont understand what the fuzz is about with mules on gold. normal workers mine just as much faster as mules does so i dont see how the whole mule changes so much. sure terran would get alittle more minerals of their mule but think about it this way. lets say toss and zerg gets X income from a base and terran gets X*1.1 cause of the mule. it doesnt matter if its on gold or not terran is still gonna get this *1.1 regardless if its on gold or blue or am i wrong? i guess is only true if the gold would have some amount of minerals which is not the case here. so i guess thats the little bonus money comes from, but its not alot to be honest lol. On July 01 2010 06:39 ItsTheFark wrote: Could you make it so that the ultralisk respawns after every 2 minutes or so? so that if its killed early on it isn't gone forever. no, thats custom editing and i dont like the idea in the first place. just like destructible rocks i want it to be gone after destroyed ^^ | ||
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Lucius2
Germany548 Posts
and harvesting minerals faster, but being depleted earlier cannot be a disadvantage ~.~ | ||
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Logo
United States7542 Posts
Following your guide above MorroW Terran base + Orbital = 1.1x Zerg/Protoss base. If that's the entire story it's balanced. The terran is getting 1.1x the mineral income of the other races just like with blue bases. The problem is when it's multiple bases. Terran doesn't get 1.1x Blue base income + 1.1x Gold base income of Protoss/Zerg. They get 1.0x Blue base income + 1.2x Gold base income of Protoss/Zerg because they can drop 2 bases of MULES on the gold. So it is a step above the other races in that respect. On the flip side MULES + gold will drain the natural really really fast and with the macro oriented nature of your map there's a good chance the 3 basing zerg or the protoss chronoboosting probes will still come out ahead. | ||
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MorroW
Sweden3522 Posts
On July 01 2010 07:12 Logo wrote: I don't think Lucius is explaining it well, but he does have a point (though I disagree that it's OP). Following your guide above MorroW Terran base + Orbital = 1.1x Zerg/Protoss base. If that's the entire story it's balanced. The terran is getting 1.1x the mineral income of the other races just like with blue bases. The problem is when it's multiple bases. Terran doesn't get 1.1x Blue base income + 1.1x Gold base income of Protoss/Zerg. They get 1.0x Blue base income + 1.2x Gold base income of Protoss/Zerg because they can drop 2 bases of MULES on the gold. So it is a step above the other races in that respect. On the flip side MULES + gold will drain the natural really really fast and with the macro oriented nature of your map there's a good chance the 3 basing zerg or the protoss chronoboosting probes will still come out ahead. ah yes very well explained, i totally see the point now. thats so obvious when u think about know it xD but at the end of the day the fact still remains that zerg takes his natural base first and the way the map is designed he should be able to go 3base extremely fast compared to other maps. but the gold natural expo idea should according to me favor terran but tvz im still not convinced  | ||
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FabledIntegral
United States9232 Posts
On July 01 2010 07:03 Lucius2 wrote: a fully (over) saturated 8 blue patch base with normal workers gives around 860-900 income. i think a 6 gold expo gives 10% more income then a 8 patch blue (there was some thread about this stuff some time ago) and needs less workers. during the time 1 mule is harvesting u get like 180 bonus income (=270 mins) on a blue and like 250 bonus income (=380 mins) on a gold. so lets say u drop 4 mules at a gold + having it fully saturated u'll get 1000 bonus income for that time (u'll get extra 1500mins at the gold just from the 4 mules). there is no possible way other races can catch up with these 1500 free minerals u just got there while having the same amount of real workers. and harvesting minerals faster, but being depleted earlier cannot be a disadvantage ~.~ What? You just said it's a bonus 130 minerals on gold. So that would equate to 4*130 = 520 "free minerals." Not 1500 free minerals. Unless you're assuming that the system we have right now Terran ALREADY gets ~1,000 free minerals from the four mules. Then still you have to talk about the DIFFERENCE from normal play, not the total. And after 4 mule cycles if you're up 520 (compared to normal) and have less SCVs because of slower production, had to cut SCVs building the orbital, haven't used a single scan, etc. I'd say you're not at a massive advantage. Also remember you have to spend 300 minerals to get two orbital commands, although I didn't factor it into the equation because that's what already happens by a normal blue natural so it's not calculated in the difference. I'm not saying there isn't a larger advantage than normal, I'm just saying don't say that it's impossible to counter... just yet. | ||
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Chizambers
United States126 Posts
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Lucius2
Germany548 Posts
blue mule = 270 bonus minerals, gold mule = 270 + 40% = 378 bonus mins so when u drop 4 mules u'll get 4*378 = 1512 bonus minerals from a gold after all the mules died. sure u have to wait for orbital command to finish and it costs 150, but its not like u could only drop 1 mule. especially lategame where worker production isnt that important anymore, because the available bases are fully saturated, then taking a new expo and dropping tons of mules is rediculous (esp on a gold). thats why i say mules need a cooldown just like spawn larva. even chrono boost has some kinda cooldown since u cannot put it on a certain building for increased or longer effect. | ||
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FabledIntegral
United States9232 Posts
On July 01 2010 08:01 Lucius2 wrote: well i maybe indeed explained it a bit crappy and ofc u have to check the overall situation with scans etc..., but alone the pure theory,i'll try to make it clear now: blue mule = 270 bonus minerals, gold mule = 270 + 40% = 378 bonus mins so when u drop 4 mules u'll get 4*378 = 1512 bonus minerals from a gold after all the mules died. sure u have to wait for orbital command to finish and it costs 150, but its not like u could only drop 1 mule. especially lategame where worker production isnt that important anymore, because the available bases are fully saturated, then taking a new expo and dropping tons of mules is rediculous (esp on a gold). thats why i say mules need a cooldown just like spawn larva. even chrono boost has some kinda cooldown since u cannot put it on a certain building for increased or longer effect. But these aren't "bonus minerals." Wouldn't bonus imply that's it's more than the normal. And if 4*270 = 1080 normal minerals, the "bonus" amount would be 1512 - 1080 = 432, correct? Chronoboost has no cooldown? You can use all 100 energy instantly on 4 different warpgates right next to each other. I do completely understand your point about lategame Terran dropping tons of mules on a new expo, but that's not related to a natural with gold minerals is it? | ||
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slush20
United States37 Posts
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gdroxor
United States639 Posts
With the gold expos so close to the spawn points, it looks like it would become a fairly common strategy just to float your CC to the expo at the start. | ||
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ItsTheFark
United States158 Posts
On July 01 2010 06:51 MorroW wrote: im no genious at math but i dont understand what the fuzz is about with mules on gold. normal workers mine just as much faster as mules does so i dont see how the whole mule changes so much. sure terran would get alittle more minerals of their mule but think about it this way. lets say toss and zerg gets X income from a base and terran gets X*1.1 cause of the mule. it doesnt matter if its on gold or not terran is still gonna get this *1.1 regardless if its on gold or blue or am i wrong? i guess is only true if the gold would have some amount of minerals which is not the case here. so i guess thats the little bonus money comes from, but its not alot to be honest lol. no, thats custom editing and i dont like the idea in the first place. just like destructible rocks i want it to be gone after destroyed ^^ Well, then you are allowing a zerg player to quickly take out the ultralisk, and plant spine crawlers on the creep that is normally there with no consequence. If possible, I would suggest just manually increasing the ultras speed and removing the creep in general, as it gives zerg just a slight unfair advantage. | ||
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terranghost
United States980 Posts
I forsee a similiar strategy on this map as on metaoplis of terrans just flying to the gold (their natural) And on this map it would be alot easier to hold as it is not on raised ground in the middle of the map. | ||
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FabledIntegral
United States9232 Posts
On July 01 2010 08:49 ItsTheFark wrote: Well, then you are allowing a zerg player to quickly take out the ultralisk, and plant spine crawlers on the creep that is normally there with no consequence. If possible, I would suggest just manually increasing the ultras speed and removing the creep in general, as it gives zerg just a slight unfair advantage. Um, then have it a strategy to Zerg. It's not much different than using an OL to spawn creep in that spot... there's no way in hell you're going to try to plant static defense in that spot unless it's late game - you couldn't afford killing an ultralisk early-midgame. If anything it adds a tactical placement to the map. | ||
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