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Map preview: (694x704)
![[image loading]](http://img190.imageshack.us/img190/7378/torrasquesmall.png)
High quality image (1338x1408)
Players: 2
Size: 128x128
Money
Main: 8 mineral, 2 gas
Natural: 5 rich mineral, 2gas
3rd: 8 mineral, 2 gas
4th: 7mineral, 2 gas
Top right corner: 8 mineral, 2 gas
Middle base: 6 rich mineral, 2 gas
Concept
+ Show Spoiler +standard macro map was my goal. u start in these close positions in air distance but to reach each other you can choose to go through the cave with the hostile ultralisk or the way around it which is a little longer.
by the ultralisk is a neutral creep tumor which boosts the ultralisk speed.
now i say again, the ultralisk is hostile so it will start attack ur units if u come close to it, once u exit the cave he will turn around and walk home ^^
there are 2 ramps in ur main base, 1 which leads out to the open and 1 which leads to the natural base.
the first way is blocked by destructible rocks which is a way potential backstabbing in case ur opponent decides to fast expand, should play out like blistering sands but less extreme.
the natural base is made out of rich minerals so it will run out quite quickly but with maximum workers it will give same income as a normal blue natural.
u get out of ur natural is a big wide open space with a watch tower in the middle of it. this watch tower is on a small high ground but the ramp sticks in the reverse direction, which would give more of an edge to a possible contain rather than a defender.
top left corner and bottom right corner are the 3rd bases, very far from ur opponent and should be very safe to take, which is good to compensate for the cheap natural.
the 4th base is easily harassed from the high ground, map control and scouting intel is pretty important to keep this base from getting destroyed or harassed to death.
the map theme overall is that i want the players to climb up the map and grab a base at a time and in late game fight for the top right corner expansion. i want the game flow to be like the sc1 map ride of valkyries where the player who climbed the most is rewarded with higher ground and more map presence.
the map is quite large for a 2 player map but it should be fine i think.
Personal notes
+ Show Spoiler +the map might be a little boring or too obvious or macro-oriented but i wanted to switch direction from my last map city of mengsk, macro player like me would probably feel more comfortable on maps like this^^
Observations
+ Show Spoiler +the ultralisk is hostile so he will attack incoming units. the ultralisk will turn around after a certain number of time and dsitance, he will not follow you into the opponents natural for example.
the creep tumor gives speed bonus to all zerg units, it can only killed by splash damage until u get detector and then target fire it to kill it.
Image Links
Torrasque chilling with his tumor buddy at the middle expo
First watch tower
Second tower
Line of sight blocker (los): none
Watch Tower: 4 of them located outside the natural and between the 4th base and the neutral corner base at 2 o clock
Destructible debris/rocks: 1 in the second main ramp (2000 hp)
Version 1.1
- made it visually easier to see ramps and divide high ground from low ground
- made the choke point between second tower cliff to the other side into the map smaller
- pushed out the cliffs between the very large center ramp to stick out a bit more into the low ground passage
- added in more water behind the ultralisk cave to make the area more cramped but also walk distance longer in comparison through the cave
- added some water at the far top right expo
- 1 mineral field added to the 3rd bases
Talked to my friend DIMAGA about the map and his thoughts around use of hostile and neutral units in maps. for those who dont know dimaga he is a top zerg gamer and has done very well so far in the beta stage  + Show Spoiler +Q: what do you think about using neutral units or structures such as creep tumors in melee maps? A: for zerg its better with creep tumor :D
i think now map makers have very big potential to be creativeQ: what are your thoughts of using hostile units that will attack on sight, like this ultralisk for instance, do you think this has great potential for interesting maps or is it too complicated or boring? A: its not bad Q: what do you think about having rich gold minerals in the natural base? could this be balanced or would it favor a race more than another, if so - which race would benefit the most from a gold natural? A: i think its not too bad but terrans mule its really will be too strong i thinkQ: what do you think about the backdoor to the mainbase with destructible rocks. i know blistering sands has this too. what do you think about this idea to have backdoor to main base? do you think its bad for gameplay or adds interesting dynamic? A: its good idea but its not the same as blisttering sands cause this rock is near main entranceQ: im not pvz expert but zerg seemed to have trouble vs protoss on blistering vs mass warpgate just because of this backdoor exit, the spinecrawlers just cant be everywhere. i also heard artosis talk about this in a glhf.it game analyse. is this true? A: dunno, i dont have such BIG problem cause have my own playstyle ^^
but in theory sure its huge important things for protoss, just build one pylon and u can warp
any units^^Q: also stalkers can blink past them while zerg always must kill :D, burrow can not move under moving on to this actual map. as a top zerg player, which race would you say is strongest in zvt? A: its better then scrap station :D seems balancedwhat would you advise to me as a mapmaker to make it more balanced? A: hmm i think we need test itQ: what do you feel about in zvp on this map, which race do you think would be strongest and is there anything you would like changed to give more balance? A: aaa its hard to say smth without practice TT its close resp by flying and far by road so... all can happen..
i think questions about map is hard to answer without testing, after testing i think my opinions can maybe change i dont knowQ: indeed its hard to judge a map without testing it, white ra thought the same when i talked to him about city of mengsk whats your overall opinion about this map? A: my opinion its not bad map and i think its playabletnx alot for this little interview A: yea sure no problem
Poll: Hostile units in Melee maps?Great potential (180) 75% Too complicated (34) 14% Boring (27) 11% 241 total votes Your vote: Hostile units in Melee maps? (Vote): Great potential
(Vote): Boring
(Vote): Too complicated
Download Map: Published to Europe server.
Read more about how to download the map.
Other maps:
Argutaris
Othello
Byzantium
City of Mengsk
Torrasque
Landscape
Black Rainbow
Gaia
Medusa
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That looks quite unique and exciting. I like it.
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Questions:
1) How exactly does that neutral ultralisk work, is it for UMS only or does it work with the other settings?
2) The bases are out of siege tank range of each-other right? They're really quite close anyway...
Suggestion: For LOS blockers, might I suggest a line of them somewhere just past the natural, to encourage flanking around that hill thing.
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On June 30 2010 10:32 Inschato wrote:
Questions:
1) How exactly does that neutral ultralisk work, is it for UMS only or does it work with the other settings?
2) The bases are out of siege tank range of each-other right? They're really quite close anyway...
Suggestion: For LOS blockers, might I suggest a line of them somewhere just past the natural, to encourage flanking around that hill thing.
it works for melee
u can basically in the editor choose the unit to be Neutral or Hostile. hostile units will attack on sight and u will attack them on sight while neutral units u will be allied to. the tumor is neutral and the ultralisk is hostile
the bases are supposed to be short to each other, i dont believe tanks could range over and even if they could simply dont make ur stuff at the very edge lol, is this an issue to u because in my eyes its really not. i just wanted to encourage aerial playstyle and harassment
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Such a cool map... I wish the beta was up so I could try it. Would definitely play it even though I play mostly ladder. Looks awesome man :O
I love that you gave it a spin with the ultralisk
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Well if they were in range, "not building at the edge" wouldn't be an option since that's where the gas is, but I don't think they're in range anyway. Otherwise the distance isn't really much of an issue though it probably encourages void ray cheese in PvZ (I don't really know how often that works these days, since I stopped playing a few months ago (My CPU died)) or whatnot. Otherwise not really a big deal at all.
Thumbs up to this map overall ^_^
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Tarrasque is spelled with an A (two, rather)... I don't think Wizards of the Coast enforces their copyrights on SC2 maps.
Also, it looks like Incineration Zone. What's the rush distance?
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On June 30 2010 10:38 Kratisto wrote:
Tarrasque is spelled with an A (two, rather)... I don't think Wizards of the Coast enforces their copyrights on SC2 maps.
i dont see what ur driving at at all but i took the name from the sc1 ultralisk hero ^^
isnt wizards of the coast magic company?
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This works in melee?
That is awesome. Awesome, awesome map.
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this kinda looks like dreamliner from osl
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i have a feeling ZvZ on this would be weird. really early scout and you see exactly what each other is doing.
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On June 30 2010 10:41 MorroW wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2010 10:38 Kratisto wrote:
Tarrasque is spelled with an A (two, rather)... I don't think Wizards of the Coast enforces their copyrights on SC2 maps. i dont see what ur driving at at all but i took the name from the sc1 ultralisk hero ^^ isnt wizards of the coast magic company?
The Tarrasque is a monster from Dungeons and Dragons. It's nigh unkillable, and sort of looks like a huge dinosaur. I didn't know about the SC1 hero named in reference.
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I really like the idea of having a neutral ultralisk. My question is: will it be able to kill a scouting worker before it escapes from the cave?
Hmm...I really like the fact that the natural expo is gold, because that, as you said, encourages macro-heavy play. (Not to mention it will make it easier to recover from harass with the gold minerals).
This map really reminds me of dreamliner, mainly because of the close aerial distance between bases, as well as the curvy route you need to take to push to your opponents base.
edit: also the area without rocks in the center kinda looks like a plane too =0
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uhh, can you use a worker to lure the ultralisk into the enemies base?
this is the first thing that came to mind and it would be a little obnoxious if you can...
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On June 30 2010 10:44 blahman3344 wrote:
I really like the idea of having a neutral ultralisk. My question is: will it be able to kill a scouting worker before it escapes from the cave?
Hmm...I really like the fact that the natural expo is gold, because that, as you said, encourages macro-heavy play. (Not to mention it will make it easier to recover from harass with the gold minerals).
This map really reminds me of dreamliner, mainly because of the close aerial distance between bases, as well as the curvy route you need to take to push to your opponents base.
edit: also the area without rocks in the center kinda looks like a plane too =0
thats funny because i never even heard of that dreamliner map before xD
if u send in a scout u can dodge the ultra with epic micro but its not so safe to be honest. if i send a worker straight move to enemy base then i would probably not feel so confident it would make it out alive.
i didnt wanna be too extreme with the hostile units power by adding more units to the map but yes the ultra might not change the gameplay too too much but it should be fun to see how this affects rushes seeing how u gotta dodge the big man all the time. adds nice feeling to the map but my goal wasnt that the map itself would rely on hostile units
On June 30 2010 10:48 sob3k wrote:
uhh, can you use a worker to lure the ultralisk into the enemies base?
this is the first thing that came to mind and it would be a little obnoxious if you can...
written in the OP that it will turn around after a while, i already tested it
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It looks very very interesting. Not sure how I feel about a "Hostile" ultralisk but I love the gold expo as a natural. So so so interesting. Expands my mind to a whole new range of possibilities.
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On June 30 2010 10:49 MorroW wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2010 10:44 blahman3344 wrote:
I really like the idea of having a neutral ultralisk. My question is: will it be able to kill a scouting worker before it escapes from the cave?
Hmm...I really like the fact that the natural expo is gold, because that, as you said, encourages macro-heavy play. (Not to mention it will make it easier to recover from harass with the gold minerals).
This map really reminds me of dreamliner, mainly because of the close aerial distance between bases, as well as the curvy route you need to take to push to your opponents base.
edit: also the area without rocks in the center kinda looks like a plane too =0 thats funny because i never even heard of that dreamliner map before xD if u send in a scout u can dodge the ultra with epic micro but its not so safe to be honest. if i send a worker straight move to enemy base then i would probably not feel so confident it would make it out alive. i didnt wanna be too extreme with the hostile units power by adding more units to the map but yes the ultra might not change the gameplay too too much but it should be fun to see how this affects rushes seeing how u gotta dodge the big man all the time. adds nice feeling to the map but my goal wasnt that the map itself would rely on hostile units Show nested quote +On June 30 2010 10:48 sob3k wrote:
uhh, can you use a worker to lure the ultralisk into the enemies base?
this is the first thing that came to mind and it would be a little obnoxious if you can... written in the OP that it will turn around after a while, i already tested it
Sorry, I read it looking for that and somehow missed it...looks great other than that.
I'm gonna get my friends to play me on this map without telling them about the ultra...lol
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can you kill torrasque? and i guess you cant really buff the hp/damage to that of the sc hero? =\
also, it'd be really awesome if you could kill it, but it'd keep respawning unless you killed a cerebrate in the corner.
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I like it very much! The Ultralisk is a very creative idea. I still doubt it's balance because Terran can overcome the Ultralisk way earlier than Zerg and Toss. Also, does "neutral creep tumor" mean no speedboost for Zerg? Because I thought creep itself is neutral anyways.
This might be intresting to play! Perhaps you can "Creepjack" the Terran while he is trying to kill the Ultra early with Marauders :D
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lol someone played D&D
Great map though.
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On June 30 2010 10:56 seRapH wrote:
can you kill torrasque? and i guess you cant really buff the hp/damage to that of the sc hero? =\
also, it'd be really awesome if you could kill it, but it'd keep respawning unless you killed a cerebrate in the corner.
you can kill it, its just a normal ultralisk. u cant buff or nerf the hps or anything in melee maps. after u kill it it wont respawn, it just dies and rots in the ground, this is not dota in space ^^
On June 30 2010 10:57 Turbo.Tactics wrote:
I like it very much! The Ultralisk is a very creative idea. I still doubt it's balance because Terran can overcome the Ultralisk way earlier than Zerg and Toss. Also, does "neutral creep tumor" mean no speedboost for Zerg? Because I thought creep itself is neutral anyways.
This might be intresting to play! Perhaps you can "Creepjack" the Terran while he is trying to kill the Ultra early with Marauders :D
the creep tumor gives speed to all zerg units, creep is creep, it has no owner :d
i wouldnt say map is balanced based on who can kill the ultralisk fastest, its just a touch in the map and i wouldnt get hanged up on it, nobody is forcing u to kill it before attacking ur enemy xD
im going to bed now i think ive covered all the ultralisk questions now xD
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On June 30 2010 10:43 Kratisto wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2010 10:41 MorroW wrote:On June 30 2010 10:38 Kratisto wrote:
Tarrasque is spelled with an A (two, rather)... I don't think Wizards of the Coast enforces their copyrights on SC2 maps. i dont see what ur driving at at all but i took the name from the sc1 ultralisk hero ^^ isnt wizards of the coast magic company? The Tarrasque is a monster from Dungeons and Dragons. It's nigh unkillable, and sort of looks like a huge dinosaur. I didn't know about the SC1 hero named in reference.
No, like roughly all other stuff in DnD the Tarrasque is a beast taken from legends that already existed. They don't got copyrights on things like dragons either...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tarasque
On June 30 2010 10:57 Turbo.Tactics wrote:
Also, does "neutral creep tumor" mean no speedboost for Zerg? Because I thought creep itself is neutral anyways.
The creeptumor being neutral means that your units don't auto attack it, which is good since there are occasions where you might want to keep it. For example if you are zerg, or if the enemy wants to expand there etc.
On June 30 2010 10:57 Turbo.Tactics wrote:
I still doubt it's balance because Terran can overcome the Ultralisk way earlier than Zerg and Toss.
No, zerg can just run past it and toss can kill it with 3 zealots while barely taking anything more than shield damage if you micro slightly, terran needs many marauders before he can get past it without noticeable damage and trying with marines is suicide.
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On June 30 2010 11:00 MorroW wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2010 10:56 seRapH wrote:
can you kill torrasque? and i guess you cant really buff the hp/damage to that of the sc hero? =\
also, it'd be really awesome if you could kill it, but it'd keep respawning unless you killed a cerebrate in the corner. you can kill it, its just a normal ultralisk. u cant buff or nerf the hps or anything in melee maps. after u kill it it wont respawn, it just dies and rots in the ground, this is not dota in space ^^ Show nested quote +On June 30 2010 10:57 Turbo.Tactics wrote:
I like it very much! The Ultralisk is a very creative idea. I still doubt it's balance because Terran can overcome the Ultralisk way earlier than Zerg and Toss. Also, does "neutral creep tumor" mean no speedboost for Zerg? Because I thought creep itself is neutral anyways.
This might be intresting to play! Perhaps you can "Creepjack" the Terran while he is trying to kill the Ultra early with Marauders :D
the creep tumor gives speed to all zerg units, creep is creep, it has no owner :d i wouldnt say map is balanced based on who can kill the ultralisk fastest, its just a touch in the map and i wouldnt get hanged up on it, nobody is forcing u to kill it before attacking ur enemy xD im going to bed now i think ive covered all the ultralisk questions now xD
aw shoot
and actually there is one. is it set as an enemy or neutral, or rather will you auto-target if a-moved?
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Lovely, beautiful map MorroW. You never seem to disappoint!
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It sort of bring back memories of Paranoid Android and Ride of Valkyries... In some respects, this is sort of a mix of those two xD
Edit; Wouldn't it be sort of imba to do a ling rush and drag the ultralisk to the opponent base? =>
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On June 30 2010 11:03 Klockan3 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2010 10:43 Kratisto wrote:On June 30 2010 10:41 MorroW wrote:On June 30 2010 10:38 Kratisto wrote:
Tarrasque is spelled with an A (two, rather)... I don't think Wizards of the Coast enforces their copyrights on SC2 maps. i dont see what ur driving at at all but i took the name from the sc1 ultralisk hero ^^ isnt wizards of the coast magic company? The Tarrasque is a monster from Dungeons and Dragons. It's nigh unkillable, and sort of looks like a huge dinosaur. I didn't know about the SC1 hero named in reference. No, like roughly all other stuff in DnD the Tarrasque is a beast taken from legends that already existed. They don't got copyrights on things like dragons either... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tarasque
Should have known. Thanks for that.
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Very unique, Possibly my faveorite map I have seen so far in the beta
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On June 30 2010 10:43 Kratisto wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2010 10:41 MorroW wrote:On June 30 2010 10:38 Kratisto wrote:
Tarrasque is spelled with an A (two, rather)... I don't think Wizards of the Coast enforces their copyrights on SC2 maps. i dont see what ur driving at at all but i took the name from the sc1 ultralisk hero ^^ isnt wizards of the coast magic company? The Tarrasque is a monster from Dungeons and Dragons. It's nigh unkillable, and sort of looks like a huge dinosaur. I didn't know about the SC1 hero named in reference.
me and my friend spencer killed it hehe
way back in the day. version 3.5
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i like this idea, only because the torrasque was awesome in the BW mission. I think it would be cool to make him a hero ultralisk with similar stats as in the original mission (account for new ultralisk cleave) and have it respawn after 3 minutes if it dies.
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Vatican City State2594 Posts
On June 30 2010 10:58 Easy772 wrote:lol someone played D&D Great map though.
Or heroes of might and magic... With some Paranoid Android xD
Interesting map, wondering if the same balance issues as PA apply though..
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the creep tumor gives speed to all zerg units, creep is creep, it has no owner :d
Ok, that's what i figured. I was a bit suspicious because you wrote neutral creep tumor.
i wouldnt say map is balanced based on who can kill the ultralisk fastest, its just a touch in the map and i wouldnt get hanged up on it, nobody is forcing u to kill it before attacking ur enemy xD
Yup. This is why I think it's intresting to play. The whole argueing over balance is kinda vague anyways as long as one hasn't played the map. You have to see what the players come up with in the games they play on this map.
I wasn't planning on starting a huge arguement over balance. I just wanted to point out that Terrans will be able to hunt down poor Torrasque very quickly.
Despite the Ultra it's basically Paranoid Android upside down and I remember lots of fights over the small bridge. Controlling the cave early may be key. The rush distances on Torrasque are faster than on Android I think, so maybe you can ignore the "shortcut" through the cave (if it even is a shortcut).
After all this theory I reeeeeaaaaally want to play this map! Love it so far!
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MorroW, I like your map, kid! Visually it is very tight, the spaces are easy to understand.
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Personally it reminds me of creeps which was one of the features I disliked in WC3. To me an RTS should be about player vs player, having a 3rd hostile "faction" adds a random element which I felt took away from the game. I hated having my opponent getting lucky and come up behind me while I was creeping. It also felt cheap when I would randomly come up on my opponent creeping and force them to blow their TP early.
However that's just my opinion and to each their own. 
Edit:
I missed the post where you said the mob is just a normal Ultralisk, I assumed you had made some sort of "uber" unit that would require a decent force to take down. So not as bad as I first thought. :p Still, I'm heavily biased against creeps ^^.
Kudo's for the DnD reference though, that brings back memories.
+ Show Spoiler +
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konadora
Singapore66158 Posts
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reminds of me an upside down scrap station, not to sure about the naturals either.
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I'm also not that sure about the naturals being high yield.
You'd need a significantly less amount of workers to saturate it, decreasing the need for macroing a lot of workers, making certain timing pushes pointless imo.
The Ultra in the center is a great idea! If you can, you should program the creep tumor to die when the Ultralisk gets killed so that players can expand there without the need to kill the creep tumor.
Also - since the ultra won't follow your units - can't you kite with it very easily?
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Also, if that is the real range of the creep tumor, zerg could cover this map REALLY fast with creep!
:D
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A GOLD natural? thats like... different. I like it, calls for build changes though. o well, it can be balanced out eventually. makes taking a 3rd much more important for later game.
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I opened this thread and when I saw the picture my mind got blown, nice idea thinking outside of the "rock" box with the ultralisk and that was truly an apropriate name ^^.
It seem that our friend morrow isn't only a good player.
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On June 30 2010 10:58 Easy772 wrote:lol someone played D&D Great map though.
Dude, Torrasque is a hero in BW campaign....If you played through you'd know.
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looks like an air-cheese map, also is there enough room for buildings in the starting expo?
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Considering changing it so that when the Ultralisk dies, the creep tumor also dies, for expansion options.
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the map looks cool, but the first thing i think when i hear hostile units is "this isn't warcraft 3 <:D"
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On June 30 2010 13:43 sob3k wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2010 10:58 Easy772 wrote:lol someone played D&D Great map though. Dude, Torrasque is a hero in BW campaign....If you played through you'd know.
I did, but I guess it wasn't that memorable because Broodwars came out when I was like a freshman I think? Forgive me if I'm not up to par on my Single Player campaign trivia.. BTW "Torrasque" is based on the super regen monster from D&D though.
Torrasque
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United States7166 Posts
hostile units could definitely provide a very interesting element to the way the game is played, but balancing it would be fairly difficult. particularly you'd need to make sure the ai of the unit/s werent abuseable (for example having it chase 1 unit around while the rest of your army moves through the cave). putting this aside however, I think this idea or a similar one is fantastic and could maybe even eventually find its way into official or tourney maps. well done!
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2 questions
1.) Can you kill the utlra (I would think so since it is gaurding an expo
2.) Is it possible zerg players not take the speed bonus on the ultras creep. Else early lings will be just as strong cuz the ultra won't be able to catch up to them.
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On June 30 2010 14:16 Zelniq wrote:
hostile units could definitely provide a very interesting element to the way the game is played, but balancing it would be fairly difficult. particularly you'd need to make sure the ai of the unit/s werent abuseable (for example having it chase 1 unit around while the rest of your army moves through the cave). putting this aside however, I think this idea or a similar one is fantastic and could maybe even eventually find its way into official or tourney maps. well done!
If a player can micro around it thats fine. It therefore doesn't effect the game that much until players want to expo - its like a DR that needs to be microed around. keeps players on their feet.
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Or just kite it to opponents base and let it finish whatever you intend to start if its even possible to do that sort of thing. xD
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I really like this map...
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just make the gold minerals only at top right and its a decent map.
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Really curious to see how the hostile Ultralisk and that creep is going to work out! Great idea though, and a lot of potential!
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the grass on the top is fail 
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Can the idiots asking whether the creep works for zerg (obviously it does, even your enemies creep works) and whether the Ultralisk will attack you/follow you please READ THE THREAD?
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Awesome map, im gonna play it as soon as beta is up! :D
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Personally I dont think we need more "scrap station clone maps" and the symmetry looks pretty much like Scrap Station.
The idea with the Torrasque is nice, BUT when I look at the whole map picture it should be more obvious that something isnt quite right in the middle from the background. Most of the map should be lush green and only the middle with the "all devouring beast" should be greyish, so you are drawn to it instantly with the eye.
Having such a hostile NPC in the middle is nice, if that beast is hard to kill (i.e. it actually hurts when attacking and isnt just "a destructible rock that itches a little") and you can move past it without needing to fight it. There should also be a "reward" for killing it ... a gold expansion with a regular number of patches perhaps? Sadly your version has more than just this one gold expo, so it isnt as desirable as it could be.
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Like the funky color scheme as well the ultra instead of the more common rocks.
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On June 30 2010 20:58 Rabiator wrote:
Personally I dont think we need more "scrap station clone maps" and the symmetry looks pretty much like Scrap Station.
The idea with the Torrasque is nice, BUT when I look at the whole map picture it should be more obvious that something isnt quite right in the middle from the background. Most of the map should be lush green and only the middle with the "all devouring beast" should be greyish, so you are drawn to it instantly with the eye.
Having such a hostile NPC in the middle is nice, if that beast is hard to kill (i.e. it actually hurts when attacking and isnt just "a destructible rock that itches a little") and you can move past it without needing to fight it. There should also be a "reward" for killing it ... a gold expansion with a regular number of patches perhaps? Sadly your version has more than just this one gold expo, so it isnt as desirable as it could be.
why would it be scrap station at all? thats like saying metalopolis is like lost temple. seriously comments like this blow me away. yes it has close positions in the air that doesnt mean its a scrap station clone, infact anything outside that aspect is totally different from scrap station. why would the hostile creature nescasarily have to reward u with something obvious? why cant i just put it there and add gameplay, kill it if u want, run around it if u want, go around the cave if u want. its just supposed to add some gameplay and not give some reward for the slayer, this isnt a rpg game where u get concrete rewards for everything u kill or do.
On June 30 2010 14:48 Entertaining wrote:
just make the gold minerals only at top right and its a decent map.
that would just favor zerg insanely much. new gamers just assume that the far away expoes deserve more gold but in fact if u do that zerg ends up taking it every game and just needing to worry about the timing attack. if u dont know how balance work dont say anything at all
On June 30 2010 14:40 Madkipz wrote:
Or just kite it to opponents base and let it finish whatever you intend to start if its even possible to do that sort of thing. xD
read the OP or the comments in this very thread. it will TURN AROUND and go home. its getting frustrating to tell everyone over and over because they cant bother to read whats already in the thread
On June 30 2010 14:27 terranghost wrote:
2 questions
1.) Can you kill the utlra (I would think so since it is gaurding an expo
2.) Is it possible zerg players not take the speed bonus on the ultras creep. Else early lings will be just as strong cuz the ultra won't be able to catch up to them.
you can kill the ultralisk, its just a hostile ultralisk, nothing more, nothing less.
creep is creep like i said before, no its not possible to edit that and i dont want to edit that. even if lings can run past quickly how would that change anything from a normal map then lol. what r u driving at?
On June 30 2010 13:47 LuigiNMario wrote:
looks like an air-cheese map, also is there enough room for buildings in the starting expo?
yes there is room for buildings in the main base, its not called starting expo tt. air cheese could have potential, just like desert and scrap station, doesnt mean its good cheese. its not like everyone is rushing for air just because its close pos, i think its horribly wrong to call a map air-cheese map as a general theme
On June 30 2010 11:55 Antares777 wrote:
I'm also not that sure about the naturals being high yield.
You'd need a significantly less amount of workers to saturate it, decreasing the need for macroing a lot of workers, making certain timing pushes pointless imo.
The Ultra in the center is a great idea! If you can, you should program the creep tumor to die when the Ultralisk gets killed so that players can expand there without the need to kill the creep tumor.
Also - since the ultra won't follow your units - can't you kite with it very easily?
some timing attacks would get pointless, but it would also give room for a ton of new timing attacks and strategies that wouldnt ordinarily work.
im not gonna add triggers to make the creep tumor die if ultra dies, that custom map. this is a melee map and i cant do such things.
the ultra will follow for lets say 10 seconds, then it will turn around. even if its easy to kill it doesnt matter, it will still add gameplay in the early stages that no other map has. just because i put out an element in a map doesnt mean everything has to be so revolved around it, just see it as a small touch.
On June 30 2010 11:41 Kinmaul wrote:Personally it reminds me of creeps which was one of the features I disliked in WC3. To me an RTS should be about player vs player, having a 3rd hostile "faction" adds a random element which I felt took away from the game. I hated having my opponent getting lucky and come up behind me while I was creeping. It also felt cheap when I would randomly come up on my opponent creeping and force them to blow their TP early. However that's just my opinion and to each their own. Edit: I missed the post where you said the mob is just a normal Ultralisk, I assumed you had made some sort of "uber" unit that would require a decent force to take down. So not as bad as I first thought. :p Still, I'm heavily biased against creeps ^^. Kudo's for the DnD reference though, that brings back memories. + Show Spoiler +
the difference is that in wc3 u ran around killing creeps for experience. and here there is 1 ultralisk at 1 point in this 1 map. there is 0 luck factors by adding this element to the map. in wc3 u ran out and got backstabbed because u were out creeping but this is sc2, try to kill the ultralisk but then its up to ur level of play to scout that ur enemy went around on the outside just like any other map with 2 directions to reach ur opponent. its exactly the same concept of luck without the ultralisk
im not gonna answer any more questions that ive already answered now. this is not air cheese map this is not scrap station and its definitely not wc3, lets move on from these silly questions please
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Well done Morrow. This is something i was expecting for someone to try out. (hostile units) The gold minerals is also interesting. This map basically provides potential for something new to happen, very cool.
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the natural base is made out of rich minerals so it will run out quite quickly but with maximum workers it will give same income as a normal blue natural.
This doesn't take into account aggressive low drone zergs or mules, I'd be very surprised if this was balanced, if you didn't want the minerals to last as long why didn't you just reduce their amount.
Apart from that I think that the map is pretty well designed and there is not much wasted space.
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definitely no hostile units cause i think that will screw up the entire early game imho. I can only see the point of neutral hostile units if ur playing warcraft 3 and is trying to level up your hero. Other than that i don't see a point unless you want to make stuff like having your 1 hp tank(example) getting killed by the hostile unit.
Other than that,keep up the good work! Its good that many people are coming up with new maps to play
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remove the ultra, add rocks and its perfect
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Why not call it Scrap Zone or Incineration Staion? 
I like the map, looks kinda like a standart SC2 map^^ I also really like the thing with the Ultralisk, I always wanted to make a map with Neutral units that attack everything but I have no idea about triggers etc.
I'm not so sure about the 2nd entrance being just next to the main entrance. Seems kinda weird to me. But I don't wanna complain without having played it. I don't like back entrances so that's definitely something new
One last thing I have to say... This green sand just doesn't fit in with that tile set
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i believe you could quite easily blink from main to main using the 'cannot land here' bug thing where it blinks double.
Fix that make sure its more than double the regular blink distance.
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Really well done as always MorroW. Don't let people get you down with their stupid comments/questions.
My only suggestion is fix the grass area. It looks ugly in an otherwise great looking map.
What tileset is this is in? It looks pretty slick.
Also if the gold expo doesn't work people it's not like it'd be hard for him to change. Still it seems like a fun way to mix up build orders without really tilting the map.
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So much talk about the poor Ultra and not about all the other unique map features, it is crazy.
I like the look and feel of this map, very well constructed. I don't like change so I automatically feel leery of the quick golds, but I think we really need to see maps with different mineral configurations played before we can assume that is better / worse for certain races.
It seems that with the high yield that it and the main will probably run out at nearly the same time (depends on when you expand) This may make for some interesting actions as it could force double expands.
The watch towers seem really to help defensive play. I can see the tvt match up being unique on this map since you wouldn't really need the viking element when defending if you control the watch tower.
For zerg I wonder what the fastest time you can get a queen to the cave is, I can see and interesting play where you rush tumors by starting off the central creep into a Protoss base so they can't build more buildings.Of course that is just a thought and in reality may be completely impossible, or add an interesting element since you would be sacrificing your injects early on.
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Hm, what do you think about a watchtower? It would be kind of cool if there was one right next to the ultralisk or possibly in a similar position to the one on Incineration Zone?
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Great looking map, except for the random grass texture. That's my only criticism.
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I guess gold naturals are a huge handicap for protoss. Terran got mules and Zerg needs to spend less larva on drones, but Protoss got no benfit at all in comparison - or do i forget something?
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God I hate hostile units in melee maps, just like WC3 hero levelling. Annoying and boring as hell.
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This map looks great!
I love the idea that the ultra is there. People seem to think that its going to have a much larger impact than it actually is. This isnt going to make the game warcraft 3, where you are going around killing lots of neutral units, this is simply a more creative way to block off an area of the map than boring rocks.
The cave is really interesting, because it is the fastest route to the enemy base, but you have to risk the ultra killing your stuff. Early rushes will be forced to go around the cave, unless someone wants to outmicro the ultra (lings should be able to get through, making early lings really dangerous). But as soon as you get into midgame, that ultra will be picked off really easy and will no longer have an impact.
Also, the natural gold means that it should be standard for terran to lift and start at the natural wont it?
I think TvZ on this match would be really unique.
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God I hate hostile units in melee maps, just like WC3 hero levelling. Annoying and boring as hell.
You just draw such a comparison without any thought at all. It's not like creeping because there is no benefit from killing the creature beyond safe passage. It serves pretty much the same purpose as destructable rocks, just a whole lot more interesting with regards to the early and mid-game.
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Belgium9947 Posts
What is the torrasque AI like? Could I send one of my first SCVs, get the ultra to chase the SCV, and get an ultra in my opponents base at 6 supply?
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On June 30 2010 23:46 Prog wrote:
I guess gold naturals are a huge handicap for protoss. Terran got mules and Zerg needs to spend less larva on drones, but Protoss got no benfit at all in comparison - or do i forget something?
They can saturate really really fast with chronoboost. In comparison to a regular expansion they'll save on chronoboost which they can use to make more military units or tech faster.
On June 30 2010 23:57 RaGe wrote:
What is the torrasque AI like? Could I send one of my first SCVs, get the ultra to chase the SCV, and get an ultra in my opponents base at 6 supply?
It's been answered a bunch already. It turns around after chasing for a little while.
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Belgium9947 Posts
On June 30 2010 23:57 Logo wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2010 23:46 Prog wrote:
I guess gold naturals are a huge handicap for protoss. Terran got mules and Zerg needs to spend less larva on drones, but Protoss got no benfit at all in comparison - or do i forget something? They can saturate really really fast with chronoboost. In comparison to a regular expansion they'll save on chronoboost which they can use to make more military units or tech faster. Show nested quote +On June 30 2010 23:57 RaGe wrote:
What is the torrasque AI like? Could I send one of my first SCVs, get the ultra to chase the SCV, and get an ultra in my opponents base at 6 supply? It's been answered a bunch already. It turns around after chasing for a little while.
Yeah just read the rest of the thread :\
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Lol, Torrasque. That's new. The creep in the middle of the map might be slightly problematic. But I'm excited for this potentially new idea.
Incidentally, having the natural be gold seems imba for terran float.
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If the Ultra turns around after chasing for while, can't stimmed marauders just kite it?
Also, make so when the ultra dies the creep tumor dies.
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I like the concept and general design of this map. The neutral creep thing is cool and adds something interesting to the map.
Couple of thoughts:
1) Is the cave intended to be claimed as an expansion? The existence of creep there makes it favor Zerg if so.
2) I'm curious to see the SC2 Map Analyzer results on this puppy.
Great looking map so far! Would love to play it.
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added an interview with dimaga in the OP
will update the map today or tomorrow i think, maybe longer delays but i doubt it
tnx for ur inputs and please make a vote in the OP if u haven't already
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Is it just me or does the map kinda resemble a Drone?
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I like the Ultra instead of destructible rocks for the gold expansion. You should remove the gold expo from the nat, though. As stated by others this is a bit imba for Terran... also with only the single gold expo controlling the short path AND the additional resources it will become a fierce battle over that middle ground. But of course you have to get an army big enough to kill the Ultra first.
I really like the tactical opportunities that this map presents. For example if a Protoss decides to rush 3 Zealots and try to take out the Ultra early so he can cannon expand there, Zerg or Terran could easily run in with some T1 units and kill the zealots, then the Ultra, and take the expansion themselves. With good scouting by both players I think the Ultra might actually stay alive for a while as both players will be afraid to engage it for fear of being "ganked".
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On July 01 2010 01:29 Uranium wrote:
I like the Ultra instead of destructible rocks for the gold expansion. You should remove the gold expo from the nat, though. As stated by others this is a bit imba for Terran... also with only the single gold expo controlling the short path AND the additional resources it will become a fierce battle over that middle ground. But of course you have to get an army big enough to kill the Ultra first.
I really like the tactical opportunities that this map presents. For example if a Protoss decides to rush 3 Zealots and try to take out the Ultra early so he can cannon expand there, Zerg or Terran could easily run in with some T1 units and kill the zealots, then the Ultra, and take the expansion themselves. With good scouting by both players I think the Ultra might actually stay alive for a while as both players will be afraid to engage it for fear of being "ganked".
indeed there is a possiblity gold natural could favor zerg.
the way i see it is that mule is the only aspect which favors terran in this gold expo.
zerg is more favored because zerg
- takes his nat faster
- has less workers out on the map when natural is completed
- is the race that has least trouble taking 3rd base which leads to the zerg being least worried about getting mined out on 2 bases
my general guess about the gold natural is that it favors zerg the most, terran in middle and protoss the least, simply because protoss has no gain in the whole situation
i dont simply want to do the obvious and switch the gold nat with a normal nat. the way i want to balance the map is to keep the same concept and fix the balance issues by touching other elements rather than the actual issue. so lets just assume it favors terran, then later on i can respond by nerfing terran in some other way. u can balance a map in the obvious ways which is to eliminate the issues or u can balance the map by adding new content or tweaking and twisting the already existing concept
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T could just lift off and take the nat first so I would say there isn't that much of a difference between balance for T and Z.
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Very interesting concept, can't wait to give this a shot... We need to really break away from the norm at this early stage of map-making in sc2, just so we can test what will and won't work with the new mechanics..
MorroW is a mapping hero ^^
I can imagine the dark swarm / disruption webs being replaced by hostile PDDs and unique LOS blocker use on city maps for example
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Maps do not get remembered if they are really good strategically. They get remembered if there is something unique. Andromeda had cliffs that were connected to its main via DRs for harassment towards the natural. That's why I remember Andromeda. Triathlon had arbiter's cloaking eggs as a path blocker. That's why I remember Triathlon. God's Garden had an in base expo with cliffs for harass, but not at the normal natural. Blistering Sands I think everyone will remember because of the backdoor option.
And everyone will remember this map - its creativity in having a high yield natural (which I don't think will catch on as a trend) and an Ultralisk guarding the quickest path to your enemy will make sure of that.
I wouldn't have ever thought to have an Ultralisk guarding the quickest path. Great job, MorroW!
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Am I the only one who looked at this map and immediately saw an ultralisk's face? I don't know if that was intentional but it definitely looks like one.
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Neutral units/structures are fine, but I do not want to have to creep, like in WC3, in order to get to my opponent or secure a base. How does the ultralisk affect things like bunker rushing? A really fast expo should be punishable, but that might not be possible just because an ultralisk forces you to take the longest path.
I like the concept of adding the gold minerals to the natural, but the downside is that your natural will be mined out a lot faster.
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Great map, but what significance does a hostile unit have in StarCraft 2 Melee maps? This isn't WarCraft 3, you don't have a hero to level up? It just seems like a waste of time and would just get in the way of an actual battle especially if its like uber strong haha.... But I wouldn't know.... I haven't played the map.
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On July 01 2010 03:35 setzer wrote:
Neutral units/structures are fine, but I do not want to have to creep, like in WC3, in order to get to my opponent or secure a base. I like the concept of adding the gold minerals to the natural, but the downside is that your natural will be mined out a lot faster.
Yeah Morrow you should make it so that if the Ultra dies so does the creep tumor (if possible).
EDIT: Sorry for asking so much - I just really want to see that happen
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Im not sure if this has been answered? but if the ultra is just normal str id recommend making it stronger say..1250 hp? rocks have 2k dont they, but since this can attack it doesnt deserve that much life.
maybe a stronger attack too
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On July 01 2010 03:35 setzer wrote:
Neutral units/structures are fine, but I do not want to have to creep, like in WC3, in order to get to my opponent or secure a base. How does the ultralisk affect things like bunker rushing? A really fast expo should be punishable, but that might not be possible just because an ultralisk forces you to take the longest path.
I like the concept of adding the gold minerals to the natural, but the downside is that your natural will be mined out a lot faster.
you know what else prevents bunker rushing?
+ Show Spoiler +destructible rocks, look at scrap station. r u starting to see how much alike this ultralisk fellow are to destructible blockers now? its idiotic to say the ultralisk dont belong because u want to bunker rush. u can bunker rush at any most maps its not like its a must, personally i never bunker rush and i do just fine without it lol. its like saying maps cant have long distances because u want 6pool to work
On July 01 2010 03:44 arb wrote:
Im not sure if this has been answered? but if the ultra is just normal str id recommend making it stronger say..1250 hp? rocks have 2k dont they, but since this can attack it doesnt deserve that much life.
maybe a stronger attack too
its impossible to edit unit stats in melee mode, else it would be interesting to change the hp and name of it :d and ye its been said about 3 times already in this thread
On July 01 2010 03:37 Antares777 wrote:Yeah Morrow you should make it so that if the Ultra dies so does the creep tumor (if possible). EDIT: Sorry for asking so much - I just really want to see that happen
uve said that about 5 times already in this thread. ive already told u this is custom map with triggers, cant do this in melee and i dont want to do it. you should learn to read before asking and requesting same thing over and over, its really starting to get annoying ;p
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It's difficult to tell from the map picture, does the creep tumor block the expo from being placed for zerg? If not I'd strongly recommend moving the tumor closer to the minerals so it blocks a zerg expo.
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MorroW is it possible to block unit pathing for Hostile units only? I'd surround the creep tumor and creep with pathing blockers so the Torrasque cannot leave that center area. Just a suggestion
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On July 01 2010 04:12 MorroW wrote:Show nested quote +On July 01 2010 03:35 setzer wrote:
Neutral units/structures are fine, but I do not want to have to creep, like in WC3, in order to get to my opponent or secure a base. How does the ultralisk affect things like bunker rushing? A really fast expo should be punishable, but that might not be possible just because an ultralisk forces you to take the longest path.
I like the concept of adding the gold minerals to the natural, but the downside is that your natural will be mined out a lot faster. you know what else prevents bunker rushing? + Show Spoiler +destructible rocks, look at scrap station. r u starting to see how much alike this ultralisk fellow are to destructible blockers now? its idiotic to say the ultralisk dont belong because u want to bunker rush. u can bunker rush at any most maps its not like its a must, personally i never bunker rush and i do just fine without it lol. its like saying maps cant have long distances because u want 6pool to work
That was just one example (a bad one, I guess), but I personally would not want a hostile creep destroying my rallying points for any early game pressure/harassment. Units will always take the shortest possible path to their destination, so at least with rocks I do not have to worry about a (possible) superunit killing off my attempt to punish greed builds.
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Potential, but I would defintely like to see the watch towers not on raised ground so an easier flank could occur, atm it seems like most SC2 maps are going 180 from the direction SC1 maps went, and are unncessarily cluttered simply because designers feel that they need to have something... everywhere...
On July 01 2010 05:09 setzer wrote:Show nested quote +On July 01 2010 04:12 MorroW wrote:On July 01 2010 03:35 setzer wrote:
Neutral units/structures are fine, but I do not want to have to creep, like in WC3, in order to get to my opponent or secure a base. How does the ultralisk affect things like bunker rushing? A really fast expo should be punishable, but that might not be possible just because an ultralisk forces you to take the longest path.
I like the concept of adding the gold minerals to the natural, but the downside is that your natural will be mined out a lot faster. you know what else prevents bunker rushing? + Show Spoiler +destructible rocks, look at scrap station. r u starting to see how much alike this ultralisk fellow are to destructible blockers now? its idiotic to say the ultralisk dont belong because u want to bunker rush. u can bunker rush at any most maps its not like its a must, personally i never bunker rush and i do just fine without it lol. its like saying maps cant have long distances because u want 6pool to work That was just one example (a bad one, I guess), but I personally would not want a hostile creep destroying my rallying points for any early game pressure/harassment. Units will always take the shortest possible path to their destination, so at least with rocks I do not have to worry about a (possible) superunit killing off my attempt to punish greed builds.
Then don't rally point through the Ultralisk route...? It's a feature of the map, and it just sounds like you're complaining that you cba to make the rally point take the other route, which is not too time consuming.
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On July 01 2010 04:26 NastyMarine wrote:
MorroW is it possible to block unit pathing for Hostile units only? I'd surround the creep tumor and creep with pathing blockers so the Torrasque cannot leave that center area. Just a suggestion
ah i dont believe that is possible
after the testing i made the ultralisk will turn around right when the cave ends
worst case scenario ill add a small rock in each cave passage so basically ultralisks/thors cant enter/exit
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I like the ultralisk thing. I was trying to achieve the same block with force fields but I couldn't get them to last. The best part is that choke is unpassable until late game and you can still fit a base in there as opposed to destructible rocks need a 3x3 choke T think. Also it does add game mechanics. If you have equal armies, the one who takes the shortcut will be weakened and probably lose the upcoming battle. Or if you go around the other guy will have more time to build more units and he'll have the xelnaga scout.
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On July 01 2010 05:26 aeoliant wrote:
I like the ultralisk thing. I was trying to achieve the same block with force fields but I couldn't get them to last. The best part is that choke is unpassable until late game and you can still fit a base in there as opposed to destructible rocks need a 3x3 choke T think. Also it does add game mechanics. If you have equal armies, the one who takes the shortcut will be weakened and probably lose the upcoming battle. Or if you go around the other guy will have more time to build more units and he'll have the xelnaga scout.
I think it'd totally be badass to have forcefields flickering on and off - a big wall of like 7 or 8 appearing and staying there every ~10 seconds (staying there for a full 2 seconds maybe). Would screw up retreating options, give a good place to hold ground, screw up mass armies moving through that way.
If they did a map like Plasma they could do a map like that^^ (in terms of balance, not feasibility haha).
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Encourages fast expansions, which I like
2nd path leading into the main may be a problem, consider moving rocks onto the ramp.
Air distance is EXTREMELY CLOSE.
Other than that, it looks really good
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I like the map for one reason: it would force people to get creative and totally out of their comfort zones to adapt specific strategies for this one map, but it just feels like it would require a lot of balancing, Obviously would require some testing but I dont think its quite there yet.
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But they saturate the slowest so less workers...? Protoss can chrono and transfer most probes to the gold... but idk just speculation (Zerg can do the same in terms of fast expanding like normal and taking advantage of the natural).
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1 permanent mule roughly equals 6 workers, well terran doesnt need to pay money+supply for these 6 workers zerg and protoss need to equalize with terran incomewise... it gets worse with more expansions and more orbital commdands...
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On July 01 2010 05:57 Lucius2 wrote:
1 permanent mule roughly equals 6 workers, well terran doesnt need to pay money+supply for these 6 workers zerg and protoss need to equalize with terran incomewise... it gets worse with more expansions and more orbital commdands...
More expansions won't matter when you're going to be mining out your natural around the time you take your third most likely, since as soon as your natural is up you're going to work on saturating that before your main, and since a saturated natural mines out faster than a saturated main, your nat will be exhausted pretty quickly one would assume. You have to buy the initial orbital command and cut SCVs while doing it, remember SCV production is the *slowest* rate compared to Toss (chrono probes) and Zerg (very fast expand, build multiple drones from inject larvae). So I feel like even if Terran does garner an advantage from mules, it'll be slightly toned down from what ppl think. But it's all theorycraft.
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well ye scv production is the slowest idd, thing is: terran DOESNT need so many scvs because of the mule. he has to pay once 150 for orbital command and then basically gets 6 free workes (300mins, 6 supply). and to the point of getting mined out: theres always the possibility of flying a cc to a (gold) expo and drop tons of mules resulting in massive income without even dangering a single one of your scvs.
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On July 01 2010 06:14 Lucius2 wrote:
well ye scv production is the slowest idd, thing is: terran DOESNT need so many scvs because of the mule. he has to pay once 150 for orbital command and then basically gets 6 free workes (300mins, 6 supply). and to the point of getting mined out: theres always the possibility of flying a cc to a (gold) expo and drop tons of mules resulting in massive income without even dangering a single one of your scvs.
You're not getting 6 free workers... stop saying that...
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Could you make it so that the ultralisk respawns after every 2 minutes or so? so that if its killed early on it isn't gone forever.
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On July 01 2010 06:14 Lucius2 wrote:
well ye scv production is the slowest idd, thing is: terran DOESNT need so many scvs because of the mule. he has to pay once 150 for orbital command and then basically gets 6 free workes (300mins, 6 supply). and to the point of getting mined out: theres always the possibility of flying a cc to a (gold) expo and drop tons of mules resulting in massive income without even dangering a single one of your scvs.
im no genious at math but i dont understand what the fuzz is about with mules on gold. normal workers mine just as much faster as mules does so i dont see how the whole mule changes so much. sure terran would get alittle more minerals of their mule but think about it this way. lets say toss and zerg gets X income from a base and terran gets X*1.1 cause of the mule. it doesnt matter if its on gold or not terran is still gonna get this *1.1 regardless if its on gold or blue or am i wrong? i guess is only true if the gold would have some amount of minerals which is not the case here. so i guess thats the little bonus money comes from, but its not alot to be honest lol.
On July 01 2010 06:39 ItsTheFark wrote:
Could you make it so that the ultralisk respawns after every 2 minutes or so? so that if its killed early on it isn't gone forever.
no, thats custom editing and i dont like the idea in the first place. just like destructible rocks i want it to be gone after destroyed ^^
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a fully (over) saturated 8 blue patch base with normal workers gives around 860-900 income. i think a 6 gold expo gives 10% more income then a 8 patch blue (there was some thread about this stuff some time ago) and needs less workers. during the time 1 mule is harvesting u get like 180 bonus income (=270 mins) on a blue and like 250 bonus income (=380 mins) on a gold. so lets say u drop 4 mules at a gold + having it fully saturated u'll get 1000 bonus income for that time (u'll get extra 1500mins at the gold just from the 4 mules). there is no possible way other races can catch up with these 1500 free minerals u just got there while having the same amount of real workers.
and harvesting minerals faster, but being depleted earlier cannot be a disadvantage ~.~
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I don't think Lucius is explaining it well, but he does have a point (though I disagree that it's OP).
Following your guide above MorroW Terran base + Orbital = 1.1x Zerg/Protoss base. If that's the entire story it's balanced. The terran is getting 1.1x the mineral income of the other races just like with blue bases.
The problem is when it's multiple bases.
Terran doesn't get 1.1x Blue base income + 1.1x Gold base income of Protoss/Zerg. They get 1.0x Blue base income + 1.2x Gold base income of Protoss/Zerg because they can drop 2 bases of MULES on the gold. So it is a step above the other races in that respect.
On the flip side MULES + gold will drain the natural really really fast and with the macro oriented nature of your map there's a good chance the 3 basing zerg or the protoss chronoboosting probes will still come out ahead.
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On July 01 2010 07:12 Logo wrote:
I don't think Lucius is explaining it well, but he does have a point (though I disagree that it's OP).
Following your guide above MorroW Terran base + Orbital = 1.1x Zerg/Protoss base. If that's the entire story it's balanced. The terran is getting 1.1x the mineral income of the other races just like with blue bases.
The problem is when it's multiple bases.
Terran doesn't get 1.1x Blue base income + 1.1x Gold base income of Protoss/Zerg. They get 1.0x Blue base income + 1.2x Gold base income of Protoss/Zerg because they can drop 2 bases of MULES on the gold. So it is a step above the other races in that respect.
On the flip side MULES + gold will drain the natural really really fast and with the macro oriented nature of your map there's a good chance the 3 basing zerg or the protoss chronoboosting probes will still come out ahead.
ah yes very well explained, i totally see the point now. thats so obvious when u think about know it xD
but at the end of the day the fact still remains that zerg takes his natural base first and the way the map is designed he should be able to go 3base extremely fast compared to other maps.
but the gold natural expo idea should according to me favor terran but tvz im still not convinced
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On July 01 2010 07:03 Lucius2 wrote:
a fully (over) saturated 8 blue patch base with normal workers gives around 860-900 income. i think a 6 gold expo gives 10% more income then a 8 patch blue (there was some thread about this stuff some time ago) and needs less workers. during the time 1 mule is harvesting u get like 180 bonus income (=270 mins) on a blue and like 250 bonus income (=380 mins) on a gold. so lets say u drop 4 mules at a gold + having it fully saturated u'll get 1000 bonus income for that time (u'll get extra 1500mins at the gold just from the 4 mules). there is no possible way other races can catch up with these 1500 free minerals u just got there while having the same amount of real workers.
and harvesting minerals faster, but being depleted earlier cannot be a disadvantage ~.~
What? You just said it's a bonus 130 minerals on gold. So that would equate to 4*130 = 520 "free minerals." Not 1500 free minerals. Unless you're assuming that the system we have right now Terran ALREADY gets ~1,000 free minerals from the four mules. Then still you have to talk about the DIFFERENCE from normal play, not the total.
And after 4 mule cycles if you're up 520 (compared to normal) and have less SCVs because of slower production, had to cut SCVs building the orbital, haven't used a single scan, etc. I'd say you're not at a massive advantage. Also remember you have to spend 300 minerals to get two orbital commands, although I didn't factor it into the equation because that's what already happens by a normal blue natural so it's not calculated in the difference.
I'm not saying there isn't a larger advantage than normal, I'm just saying don't say that it's impossible to counter... just yet.
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It looks great. I would love to try it out when beta comes back up. Nice work!
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well i maybe indeed explained it a bit crappy and ofc u have to check the overall situation with scans etc..., but alone the pure theory,i'll try to make it clear now:
blue mule = 270 bonus minerals, gold mule = 270 + 40% = 378 bonus mins
so when u drop 4 mules u'll get 4*378 = 1512 bonus minerals from a gold after all the mules died.
sure u have to wait for orbital command to finish and it costs 150, but its not like u could only drop 1 mule. especially lategame where worker production isnt that important anymore, because the available bases are fully saturated, then taking a new expo and dropping tons of mules is rediculous (esp on a gold).
thats why i say mules need a cooldown just like spawn larva. even chrono boost has some kinda cooldown since u cannot put it on a certain building for increased or longer effect.
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On July 01 2010 08:01 Lucius2 wrote:
well i maybe indeed explained it a bit crappy and ofc u have to check the overall situation with scans etc..., but alone the pure theory,i'll try to make it clear now:
blue mule = 270 bonus minerals, gold mule = 270 + 40% = 378 bonus mins
so when u drop 4 mules u'll get 4*378 = 1512 bonus minerals from a gold after all the mules died.
sure u have to wait for orbital command to finish and it costs 150, but its not like u could only drop 1 mule. especially lategame where worker production isnt that important anymore, because the available bases are fully saturated, then taking a new expo and dropping tons of mules is rediculous (esp on a gold).
thats why i say mules need a cooldown just like spawn larva. even chrono boost has some kinda cooldown since u cannot put it on a certain building for increased or longer effect.
But these aren't "bonus minerals." Wouldn't bonus imply that's it's more than the normal. And if 4*270 = 1080 normal minerals, the "bonus" amount would be 1512 - 1080 = 432, correct?
Chronoboost has no cooldown? You can use all 100 energy instantly on 4 different warpgates right next to each other. I do completely understand your point about lategame Terran dropping tons of mules on a new expo, but that's not related to a natural with gold minerals is it?
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This map is so so so cool. It reminds me of (S)crap Station, with a shorter ground distance, some interesting expansion placements and more open spaces. Basically they should throw out Scrap Station and replace it with this.
With the gold expos so close to the spawn points, it looks like it would become a fairly common strategy just to float your CC to the expo at the start.
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On July 01 2010 06:51 MorroW wrote:Show nested quote +On July 01 2010 06:14 Lucius2 wrote:
well ye scv production is the slowest idd, thing is: terran DOESNT need so many scvs because of the mule. he has to pay once 150 for orbital command and then basically gets 6 free workes (300mins, 6 supply). and to the point of getting mined out: theres always the possibility of flying a cc to a (gold) expo and drop tons of mules resulting in massive income without even dangering a single one of your scvs. im no genious at math but i dont understand what the fuzz is about with mules on gold. normal workers mine just as much faster as mules does so i dont see how the whole mule changes so much. sure terran would get alittle more minerals of their mule but think about it this way. lets say toss and zerg gets X income from a base and terran gets X*1.1 cause of the mule. it doesnt matter if its on gold or not terran is still gonna get this *1.1 regardless if its on gold or blue or am i wrong? i guess is only true if the gold would have some amount of minerals which is not the case here. so i guess thats the little bonus money comes from, but its not alot to be honest lol. Show nested quote +On July 01 2010 06:39 ItsTheFark wrote:
Could you make it so that the ultralisk respawns after every 2 minutes or so? so that if its killed early on it isn't gone forever. no, thats custom editing and i dont like the idea in the first place. just like destructible rocks i want it to be gone after destroyed ^^
Well, then you are allowing a zerg player to quickly take out the ultralisk, and plant spine crawlers on the creep that is normally there with no consequence. If possible, I would suggest just manually increasing the ultras speed and removing the creep in general, as it gives zerg just a slight unfair advantage.
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Just thought of something how long is the building fly time from main to natural..
I forsee a similiar strategy on this map as on metaoplis of terrans just flying to the gold (their natural)
And on this map it would be alot easier to hold as it is not on raised ground in the middle of the map.
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On July 01 2010 08:49 ItsTheFark wrote:Show nested quote +On July 01 2010 06:51 MorroW wrote:On July 01 2010 06:14 Lucius2 wrote:
well ye scv production is the slowest idd, thing is: terran DOESNT need so many scvs because of the mule. he has to pay once 150 for orbital command and then basically gets 6 free workes (300mins, 6 supply). and to the point of getting mined out: theres always the possibility of flying a cc to a (gold) expo and drop tons of mules resulting in massive income without even dangering a single one of your scvs. im no genious at math but i dont understand what the fuzz is about with mules on gold. normal workers mine just as much faster as mules does so i dont see how the whole mule changes so much. sure terran would get alittle more minerals of their mule but think about it this way. lets say toss and zerg gets X income from a base and terran gets X*1.1 cause of the mule. it doesnt matter if its on gold or not terran is still gonna get this *1.1 regardless if its on gold or blue or am i wrong? i guess is only true if the gold would have some amount of minerals which is not the case here. so i guess thats the little bonus money comes from, but its not alot to be honest lol. On July 01 2010 06:39 ItsTheFark wrote:
Could you make it so that the ultralisk respawns after every 2 minutes or so? so that if its killed early on it isn't gone forever. no, thats custom editing and i dont like the idea in the first place. just like destructible rocks i want it to be gone after destroyed ^^ Well, then you are allowing a zerg player to quickly take out the ultralisk, and plant spine crawlers on the creep that is normally there with no consequence. If possible, I would suggest just manually increasing the ultras speed and removing the creep in general, as it gives zerg just a slight unfair advantage.
Um, then have it a strategy to Zerg. It's not much different than using an OL to spawn creep in that spot... there's no way in hell you're going to try to plant static defense in that spot unless it's late game - you couldn't afford killing an ultralisk early-midgame. If anything it adds a tactical placement to the map.
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back when ppl used to lift their ccs to the golds were around patch 5<. so much has happened and i dare to say everyone were terrible at the game then. it needs testing and if lifting to gold is so brilliant then i could figure something out to prevent it. but i will not adapt my map to a strategy that was popular and arguably bad in the early beta.
On July 01 2010 08:49 ItsTheFark wrote:Show nested quote +On July 01 2010 06:51 MorroW wrote:On July 01 2010 06:14 Lucius2 wrote:
well ye scv production is the slowest idd, thing is: terran DOESNT need so many scvs because of the mule. he has to pay once 150 for orbital command and then basically gets 6 free workes (300mins, 6 supply). and to the point of getting mined out: theres always the possibility of flying a cc to a (gold) expo and drop tons of mules resulting in massive income without even dangering a single one of your scvs. im no genious at math but i dont understand what the fuzz is about with mules on gold. normal workers mine just as much faster as mules does so i dont see how the whole mule changes so much. sure terran would get alittle more minerals of their mule but think about it this way. lets say toss and zerg gets X income from a base and terran gets X*1.1 cause of the mule. it doesnt matter if its on gold or not terran is still gonna get this *1.1 regardless if its on gold or blue or am i wrong? i guess is only true if the gold would have some amount of minerals which is not the case here. so i guess thats the little bonus money comes from, but its not alot to be honest lol. On July 01 2010 06:39 ItsTheFark wrote:
Could you make it so that the ultralisk respawns after every 2 minutes or so? so that if its killed early on it isn't gone forever. no, thats custom editing and i dont like the idea in the first place. just like destructible rocks i want it to be gone after destroyed ^^ Well, then you are allowing a zerg player to quickly take out the ultralisk, and plant spine crawlers on the creep that is normally there with no consequence. If possible, I would suggest just manually increasing the ultras speed and removing the creep in general, as it gives zerg just a slight unfair advantage.
its not possible. even if that element of a creep tumor gives zerg an edge i would say the backdoor debris gives an edge to toss and as many said gold expo give an edge to terran. u need to stop call maps imbalanced because of 1 tiny little thing xd
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people are just trying to figoure out the map, and they are noticing advantages for different races, but instead of thinking and elaborating on them, they just yell imbalance :-D
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Bravo Morrow! Your maps really impress me conceptually. Also yay for nice big macro maps! :D
Im really digging all the funky stuff like the 5patch high yield nat and the hostile ultralisk is awesome! The neutral creep will be very helpful for a Zerg player if he can find a way to drop a creep tumor early on, they could really advance the creep quickly. Also regarding the gold nat... Terran mules may help in the short term scheme of things but it will also mine out pretty remarkably faster as well. Zergs would probably benefit the most since they can expand and drone easier. Protoss im not sure, this map look pretty big so with the long travel distance it could open up safer opportunities to expand sooner.
It also looks like Stalkers can also blink from one main to the other which would be crazy effective.
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Wow awesome map, very creative. I especially like the 5 gold mineral patches at your first natural, allows for quicker saturation and a more interesting play but not sure how macro extensive this is though. The ultralisk in the middle is very inventive and I like where this is going. I've seen alot of macro oriented maps being made lately, and I'd love to somehow see a micro oriented map (not sure if this makes sense, I probably mean a more aggressive map). Can't wait to play your new maps and expecting more cool maps to come.
edit: It would be interesting if there were maps especially designed for mirror match ups. neutral pylon power across the map for PvP, creep for ZvZ not sure about TvT though. and how about permanent force fields that block off an expansion forcing a player to either get drops or massive units to get past them. I like how we're inspiring each other, it's nice :D
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I would like to DL this and try against Ai but it is not possible to DL :<
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On July 05 2010 05:22 arnold(soTa) wrote:
I would like to DL this and try against Ai but it is not possible to DL :<
just wait for the beta to come back online... hes just making these threads to collect feedback atm.
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Version 1.1
- made it visually easier to see ramps and divide high ground from low ground
- made the choke point between second tower cliff to the other side into the map smaller
- pushed out the cliffs between the very large center ramp to stick out a bit more into the low ground passage
- added in more water behind the ultralisk cave to make the area more cramped but also walk distance longer in comparison through the cave
- added some water at the far top right expo
- 1 mineral field added to the 3rd bases
oh, lol actually theres a command center in the picture, please ignore that :p
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I'm surprised at the number of people who don't remember that obnoxious Hero Ultra from the last Terran mission in Brood War.
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I can't unsee the Space invaders alien dude in this map xD
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This map reminds me of Flight-Dreamliner in S2 Korean Air OSL Map Pool
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On July 27 2010 04:11 Salteador Neo wrote:
I can't unsee the Space invaders alien dude in this map xD
FFFFFFFFF Now I can't unsee it! D:
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Hostile units can add something unique to the map, but it's maybe hard to balance because some race could be able to "easy kill" them.
They have to be immune to things like force fields, marauder's slow. They could follow reapers abusing the ramp etc. A high HP or shield regeneration out of combat could be a good idea (like protoss). But it won't be a big deal on this particular map since it's at the expo on the middle.
At the beginning of warcraft III, some players pulled lvl 10 dragons on plunder island to the other player's base.
But every idea making a map unique is something to follow.
It's a very nice map and I'm definitely going to try it.
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I like the neurtral creep, but not the creep thats under him. Terran/Toss need to get detection to kill the tumor and expo there when zerg can just build immediatly, and start getting static D too. Getting rid of the tumor would work, but you could also place the tumor right in the middle of the area where you build your CC/hatch/nexus so that way all 3 races would need to kill it before expanding
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On June 30 2010 10:42 Ducci wrote:
this kinda looks like dreamliner from osl
thats what i was thinking
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I realise you must be very busy now, but would it please be possible to publish this on the american server if you have an account there? Would really love to play on this map, looks awesome and unique.
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Cool bump imo.
This looks like a bitchin' map, I'd love to play it on USA tbh...
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EPT![[image loading]](http://www.motifake.com/demotivational-poster/0905/tarrasque-d-amp-d-tarrasque-dungeons-dragons-rpg-demotivational-poster-1242484389.jpg)
