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Have the results of IPL3 and IEM Guangzhou changed your op…

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Bobster
Profile Joined January 2011
Germany3075 Posts
October 12 2011 13:20 GMT
#181
Little to no change!


Always thought the level at the top was close across regions, and that we've seen a ton of close games before (that more often than not turned out in the Korean's favour) - was only a matter of time before those close games produce less one-sided results.

hmunkey
Profile Joined August 2010
United Kingdom1973 Posts
October 12 2011 13:22 GMT
#182
Basically we established the the absolute best non-Koreans can sometimes beat mediocre Koreans, and even then not that consistently. No, not much has really changed. We already saw this with the foreigners over in Korea.
OCsurfeR
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
United States195 Posts
October 12 2011 15:02 GMT
#183
I've been constantly amused by some members in this community and their expectation that the foreigner scene is going to catch up to the Korean scene seemingly overnight. I'd like to remind everyone that SC2 has only officially been released for just slightly over one year (July 2010), and that StarCraft as a professional sport in Korea is a decade old.

The foreigner scene is not going to catch up to the Korean scene in the first year. It may even take several years, but evidence that the evolution is occurring is veritable.

So sit back, enjoy the games, root for your foreigner heroes and know that in time the foreigner scene can and likely will rival the Korean scene.
"Your mother puts license plates in your underwear? How do you sit?" - Chris Knight, Real Genius
NonY
Profile Blog Joined June 2007
8748 Posts
October 12 2011 15:11 GMT
#184
On October 12 2011 17:48 Djagulingu wrote:
Population of Korea: 40 million.
Population of Rest of the World: ~6.5 billion.

Enough said.

Not enough said. Why do these populations matter? I think the relevant populations are the number of SC2 players practicing 8+ hours a day (already pro) and the number of SC2 players practicing 20+ hours a week and trying their best to get as good as they can. It doesn't matter how many people in a country aren't playing SC2 or how many people are playing SC2 casually or how many "pro" SC2 players are half-assing it. What matters is the number of people trying to be pro and actually putting in the effort. Korea has the highest number for any country, and I think they still have the highest number when counting the entire rest of the world as one country.
"Fucking up is part of it. If you can't fail, you have to always win. And I don't think you can always win." Elliott Smith ---------- Yet no sudden rage darkened his face, and his eyes were calm as they studied her. Then he smiled. 'Witness.'
caradoc
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
Canada3022 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-10-12 15:37:02
October 12 2011 15:23 GMT
#185
IPL3 was a surprise, since I hadn't seen Stephano play before and it just came out of nowhere. IEM though really only had 4 Koreans. Even if said Koreans were favoured to win 80% over all opponents in the group stage and playoffs, statistically they still aren't favoured to win the whole tournament just due to numbers.

As others have said, I think the best foreigners are on par with mid tier Koreans-- some in code S/A.

ALSO,

People make a lot out of 'korean work ethic' and all, but I don't think that's necessarily as much a factor as people make it out to be. If this were true, Korean mechanics would be head and shoulders above everyone else, there may be an average difference across the general population, but I don't think this is the case at the very top. Practice environment probably makes a difference, yeah, but I think rather than 'work ethic', a much bigger factor is the fact that the overall culture is still much more developed in Korea, and you see more cutting edge builds/strats coming out of korea, making the scene in general just ahead of the curve. This will be even more exaggerated within a team environment.

Decision making is attuned to what you come to expect a player to do in a given scenario, which is obviously impacted if your environment is slightly ahead of current trends elsewhere. You will have the advantage of knowing likely decisions your opponent will make, who will have less an advantage over you-- blue flame hellions and terran mech play in MLG Anaheim is a pretty obvious example.

EDIT:

On October 13 2011 00:11 Liquid`Tyler wrote:
I think the relevant populations are the number of SC2 players practicing 8+ hours a day (already pro) and the number of SC2 players practicing 20+ hours a week and trying their best to get as good as they can. It doesn't matter how many people in a country aren't playing SC2 or how many people are playing SC2 casually or how many "pro" SC2 players are half-assing it. What matters is the number of people trying to be pro and actually putting in the effort. Korea has the highest number for any country, and I think they still have the highest number when counting the entire rest of the world as one country.


I kind of agree with this as well-- though I look at it more at a systemic rather than an individual level-- the prevalence of people trying to be pro accelerates the development of the game in Korea with respect to the rest of the world.
Salvation a la mode and a cup of tea...
pHelix Equilibria
Profile Joined August 2010
United States1134 Posts
October 12 2011 15:40 GMT
#186
Yeah as I remember, MVP was not at either tournaments.
Mr Showtime
Profile Joined April 2011
United States1353 Posts
October 12 2011 15:47 GMT
#187
On October 12 2011 11:45 MadNeSs wrote:
Well stephano shoved something else. He might be the best zerg on the world. And I am certain he would rape Nestea, in a ZvZ any day of the week. And he probably has a good chance against MVP (Who I consider the best korean in the world) to beat him. But hopefully we will see that some day.


You can weigh in on the matter when you've watched Nestea play....
QTIP.
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States2113 Posts
October 12 2011 15:47 GMT
#188
No it hasn't changed anything. It's just 2 Tournaments.
"Trash Micro but Win. Its Marin." - Min Chul
Caddy
Profile Joined July 2011
United Kingdom178 Posts
October 12 2011 16:51 GMT
#189
My opinion still hasn't changed much, unfortunately. It's good to see foreigners doing well at these tournaments but I still think the skill gap is huge. The Korean practice houses must make a huge difference.

I don't think that there is any reason for the Koreans to always be better than foreigners, however. The foreigners just have to put in the effort to catch up, although there is no doubt that it is tough.

Like White-Ra said, foreigners are lazy compared to Koreans. White-Ra is always right.

Schenkee
Profile Joined October 2010
Scotland322 Posts
October 12 2011 16:51 GMT
#190
If mpv or nestea were at any of thies to events it would have been different, best forigners beating mid par koreans is all we seen. This is only my opinion ofc
Qaatar
Profile Joined January 2011
1409 Posts
October 12 2011 17:13 GMT
#191
All this proves is that Stephano, as of right now, has a Code S level of play, and Idra is perhaps around Code A'ish. Beating two Code B players at IEM isn't anything worth bragging about, and while I agree that Puma is better than Code B, he's just not consistently good.

Stephano beat a guy in the Up/downs, and a bunch of Code B Koreans. STC is talented, yes, but still unrefined and inconsistent. The others are just unproven besides some PvP's, and one is teamless. The online results have been talked to death, so I won't get into them.

Either way, saying Stephano is Code S level really isn't saying much at all, since "Code S level" essentially encompasses the top 40-50 players in the world, considering the fact that there ARE some Code A and Code B players who are "Code S level." Consequently, saying Stephano is one of he top 40 or 50 players in the world isn't much of a stretch at all.

Thus, no change in opinion. One player does not equate to the entire scene.
Treva
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
United States533 Posts
October 12 2011 17:15 GMT
#192
I chose moderate, IPL had some pretty big talent. It didn't make me view Koreans as any real less of players now as a whole but it did make them look a little bit vulnerable.
Live it up.
turamn
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
United States1374 Posts
October 12 2011 17:58 GMT
#193
No change. Top tier Korean talent was not present at most of those tournaments. MMA and Puma are decent, but they are not MVP or Nestea.
Cloud9157
Profile Joined December 2010
United States2968 Posts
October 12 2011 18:18 GMT
#194
Considering only a few of the best Koreans were at IPL3 (MMA, Stc) my perception on this matter has changed little.

Stephano has shown what a monster he can be, but he needs a true test: MVP, DRG, Nestea, Polt, and the rest of Code S that have not played him.
"Are you absolutely sure that armor only affects the health portion of a protoss army??? That doesn't sound right to me. source?" -Some idiot
HEROwithNOlegacy
Profile Joined June 2010
United States850 Posts
October 12 2011 18:18 GMT
#195
I know that what makes Stephano such a great player is his skill in the early to mid game to holding off all sorts of timings, and his ZvZ is top notch in the world. However, a lot of people in starcraft 2 still play risky timings. I think that MVP is still the dominant force in the world and that this event just confirmed my belief that there are top foreigners who can compete with the majority of koreans, But koreans are still the dominant force with the best players. As time goes on and the game gets more in depth, hopefully we see timings and all ins disappear and more crisp mechanics come into play in which case whoever plays more will be rewarded.
SlayerS Fighting!
Peetee
Profile Joined April 2010
United States9 Posts
October 12 2011 18:28 GMT
#196
After watching that match between Ganzi and Supernova round of 8 Code S. There is no doubt in my mind that a foreigner could compete atleast at that level.
Keone
Profile Joined April 2011
United States812 Posts
October 12 2011 19:00 GMT
#197
On October 13 2011 00:11 Liquid`Tyler wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 12 2011 17:48 Djagulingu wrote:
Population of Korea: 40 million.
Population of Rest of the World: ~6.5 billion.

Enough said.

Not enough said. Why do these populations matter? I think the relevant populations are the number of SC2 players practicing 8+ hours a day (already pro) and the number of SC2 players practicing 20+ hours a week and trying their best to get as good as they can. It doesn't matter how many people in a country aren't playing SC2 or how many people are playing SC2 casually or how many "pro" SC2 players are half-assing it. What matters is the number of people trying to be pro and actually putting in the effort. Korea has the highest number for any country, and I think they still have the highest number when counting the entire rest of the world as one country.

Tyler, this time I'll have to completely disagree with you. This might have been the case with SCBW, but there are NOWHERE as many Koreans who are trying to go Pro SC2 as there are in the REST of the world. SC2 has been a hit in so many countries, in Europe, China, North America... I'm venturing to say that the number of people trying to go "pro" in China alone is probably higher than the number of people trying to "pro" in Korea. This is probably because lots of Koreans are still interested in BW > SC2, although a shift in focus is happening.

In summary, there is absolutely 0% chance that there are more Koreans trying to go "pro" than the entire rest of the world, and I don't even think the number even approaches the total of the other countries in Asia.

You've got to remember, SC2 is just one of HUNDREDS of popular games in Korea. Koreans make so many games that are high-quality that actually are the most popular in PC-bangs. When I recently visited Korea, SC2 wasn't even readily available in many PC-bangs, and EVERYONE was playing something else. Back in the SCBW days, EVERYONE was playing SCBW. Things have changed.
BW Forever. Flash is the Ultimate Bonjwa.
TheTurk
Profile Joined January 2011
United States732 Posts
October 12 2011 19:49 GMT
#198
Yes, there are a few prodigies like Stephano who are individual outliers in the Korea-Foreigner comparison but the skill gap is definitely still tangible and gigantic.
Starcraft is a lifestyle.
PhoenixDark
Profile Joined March 2011
United States286 Posts
October 12 2011 20:04 GMT
#199
Nah. Idra and Stephano's accomplishments cannot be overlooked or understated, but the fact remains that overall the Korean scene is better than the foreign scene. It'll stay like that until foreigners improve their micro, macro, etc. Stephano dominated IPL in part because his micro and decision making were very high level; I definitely think he could compete in Code A. He needs to work on macro but he's got the raw skills/talent to succeed at anything.

If Idra practices and is in a decent mental state, he can reach impressive heights as well. Guys like Huk and Dimaga have shown they can compete with Koreans as well. They're solid players. But the scene needs more before it can challenge Korea.
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=435469
HereBeDragons
Profile Joined May 2011
1429 Posts
October 12 2011 20:17 GMT
#200
On October 13 2011 00:11 Liquid`Tyler wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 12 2011 17:48 Djagulingu wrote:
Population of Korea: 40 million.
Population of Rest of the World: ~6.5 billion.

Enough said.

Not enough said. Why do these populations matter? I think the relevant populations are the number of SC2 players practicing 8+ hours a day (already pro) and the number of SC2 players practicing 20+ hours a week and trying their best to get as good as they can. It doesn't matter how many people in a country aren't playing SC2 or how many people are playing SC2 casually or how many "pro" SC2 players are half-assing it. What matters is the number of people trying to be pro and actually putting in the effort. Korea has the highest number for any country, and I think they still have the highest number when counting the entire rest of the world as one country.


You have MLG in a few days - get off the forums and continue your practice!!!!

<3
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