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On October 11 2011 14:44 jalstar wrote:
Not particularly, the top foreigners like Thorzain, Huk, Idra, Stephano, have always been able to beat mid-tier Koreans.
Thorzain over MC remains the biggest foreigner win, with maybe Huk over Nada in second.
what about dimaga > nestea? that doesn't count? You could say that Nestea wasn't trying in the match... but you could also say that dimaga used magic....
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It didn't change my opinion at all really.. I always believed if anyone can put in the right practice for themselves then they should be able to stand up to other people..
What I really wonder however... is how this poll adds up to 110% of total votes....
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Good foreigners go about even with Code A/Code B Koreans (the none beast mode Code A ones at any rate), this isn't a surprise.
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On October 13 2011 09:45 Insomni7 wrote:I agree with most of the posts here. I don't think anyone can say that top koreans arent the best around but we have seen how even they are only a little bit above players like huk, thorzain, stephano, sen ect. Show nested quote +the BEST foreigners have a good shot against mid-level Koreans, and they still have almost no chance against the BEST Koreans I don't fully agree with this. The more you look the more you find games of the best of the best Koreans falling to foreigners, or even playing very even looking series with foreigners. A short list GSL World Championship -sen vs. Marineking -TT1 vs. nada -MC vs. Whitera -Dimaga vs. July -Dimaga vs. MVP -Dimaga vs. Nestea (first nestea zvz loss i believe and it was bo3 too) TSL 3 -Goody vs. Nestea -Adelscott vs. MVP -Qxc vs. Genious -Thorzain vs. fruitdealer -thorzain vs. MC -Kaz vs. Nada Also one of my favorite series and one of the most evenly matched series i can remember is Thorzain vs. DRG (dreamhack valencia). Though thorzain didn't win, he played with DRG stride for stride throughout the series and looked evenly matched with DRG, a korean zerg who had looked practically invincible against terran in korea. You will also notice many of the players on this list aren't even huge names. Players like adelscott, TT1, qxc, who are certainly good but who we don't think of as the very best around. this shows by what a thin margin Koreans surpass foreigners and how easy it is for a korean to have a bad day and a high level foreigner to have a good day and an upset to result.
Showmatch
Showmatch
Showmatch
Showmatch
Showmatch
Awesome
Online
Online
Online
Yes(but Fruitdealer was no longer a top Korean, Thorzain is still really good though)
Yes(Best series ever imo)
Online
The WC team USA vs Korea was essentially a showmatch, in the real tourney MKP met sen again in ro16 and won decisively. In fact the only foreigner to get out of ro16 in WC was Dimaga and TT1(only because he fought Moonglade in ro16)
Thanks to the wonders of lag people don't really count online results, Destiny beat Bomber and Ace in the Geforce pro/am tourney for example. A "legit" win is usually considered to be in a LAN setting
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On October 11 2011 14:43 Waxangel wrote:
Hmm, considering that I always thought the BEST foreigners have a good shot against mid-level Koreans, and they still have almost no chance against the BEST Koreans, I don't think much has changed for me.
Look at me, replying to my own poll o/
This. (:
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Personally think people see this from a much too narrow perspective. Sure there still is a certain disparity between Koreans and the rest of the foreigners. But there's several factors that all work hand in hand. Saying things like: Person A only won because of his build-order, person B lost because of the match-up or person C only won the tournament because he didn't play against X just show's there's a certain degree of bias. All players have a strong match-up, all players have a weak match-up. all players can win some easy games with the right build-order/tactic to counter the respective person. The skill in most of these cases that people are (should) be referring to, is the ability to quickly take the right decision for the match-up. The fact that for ex. Stephano managed to pick those pretty easy wins in the finals was because he had "the skill" to properly read his opponent and counter it. That's what most starcraft2 games boil down to. You see good players dropping really early in a tournament because of the "wrong" match-up. Sometimes koreans eliminate each other, but just as often you see foreigners eliminate each other as well.
I'm fairly confident that if, for example, kiwikaki had won against stephano, we wouldn't have seen a foreigner take the first place.
Imo the skill-gap is much smaller than most people think. That being said i do agree that koreans are still the best at the game right now. But there's more to winning a tournament than just "beating opponents of a certain rank".
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People saying the best foreigners can't win vs the best Koreans is just wrong IMO. Two tournaments in a row, IEM and IPL, both won by foreigners. I see Koreans lose a lot, though they win more than 50 % of matches (obviously).
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Top foreigners have always been able to win vs good Koreans. But it does not happen often that a foreigner wins a big tournament cause Korea just have a lot more good players.
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The skill gap has at least marginally closed...
I mean, IPL3 results...
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On October 13 2011 16:54 LXR wrote:Show nested quote +On October 11 2011 14:44 jalstar wrote:
Not particularly, the top foreigners like Thorzain, Huk, Idra, Stephano, have always been able to beat mid-tier Koreans.
Thorzain over MC remains the biggest foreigner win, with maybe Huk over Nada in second. what about dimaga > nestea? that doesn't count? You could say that Nestea wasn't trying in the match... but you could also say that dimaga used magic....
non tvt mirrors will always be subject to coinflips and the inferior player having a shot at winning.
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Moderately changed, I probably should've picked little to no change but oh well.
It lets me know that there are a few new(?) foreigners that are starting to rise up in the ranks, and are able to beat koreans(I've never paid any attention to stephano until IPL 3, and even then, i'm still skeptical about him) every now and then. Now whether they're able to beat them or go toe to toe with them on a consistant basis, is when i'll start to really think that us foreigners have increased in skill to get to the top ranks.
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There are only 2 or 3 players who i can think of now who i beleived and still beleive can consistently take games of TOP Koreans, and it is still only matchup dependant.
Nerchio ZvZ
Dimaga ZvZ
Mana PvT
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United Arab Emirates874 Posts
Nothing really changed for me. the best koreans really are the best in the whole world.
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On October 14 2011 01:22 ticktack wrote:
Nothing really changed for me. the best koreans really are the best in the whole world.
This seems to be the most common type of comment in this poll so far. "Best koreans are still best" and "Top foreigners have always been able to beat Koreans" etc... That's not what the poll said though:
Have the results of IPL3 and IEM Guangzhou changed your opinion on the Korea-International skill gap?
Best Koreans are still the best, but that's not where the skill gap is.
My opinion of the skill gap has moderately changed. I understand that nobody's going to be beating MVP or Nestea regularly anytime soon, but I think we see Foreigners are getting better, closing the skill gap.
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France13022 Posts
On October 13 2011 21:05 AnnoyingNoob wrote:
People saying the best foreigners can't win vs the best Koreans is just wrong IMO. Two tournaments in a row, IEM and IPL, both won by foreigners. I see Koreans lose a lot, though they win more than 50 % of matches (obviously).
They are not wrong you just don't understand what best koreans means ^^'.
IMMvp, IMNesTea, ST.Bomber, TSL.Polt, MarineKingPrime, SlayerS_GanZi, IMLosirA, MMA etc.
It depends of their form and so on who are the current best koreans currently so it's a little bit hard to know but still.
IEM which korean was here lol? PuMa who is code B maybe? Can't remember if they were others but pretty sure there wasn't top koreans.
IPL there was some very good koreans and they failed early against koreans for the most part (MC, MMA etc), most of the koreans that were trashed by Stephano are good code B / code A but it's just that Stephano has an astounding talent thus the fact that he is training in the foreign scene doesn't prevent him from having success against koreans :D.
What I mean is that for most of the foreigners, they can't have success against koreans if they don't train/have trained there.
The gap is not THAT huge depending on the foreign player.
Anyways the results of IPL didn't made me think that the gap has changed, just that Stephano has a fucking champion mental state, and I wasn't able to see the finals but how he overcame the game 2 against KiWikaki and game 1 against Inori showed me that.
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On October 14 2011 00:20 icarly wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2011 16:54 LXR wrote:On October 11 2011 14:44 jalstar wrote:
Not particularly, the top foreigners like Thorzain, Huk, Idra, Stephano, have always been able to beat mid-tier Koreans.
Thorzain over MC remains the biggest foreigner win, with maybe Huk over Nada in second. what about dimaga > nestea? that doesn't count? You could say that Nestea wasn't trying in the match... but you could also say that dimaga used magic.... non tvt mirrors will always be subject to coinflips and the inferior player having a shot at winning.
What? So Nestea's wins at every single god damn motherfucking ZvZ except the ones against Dimaga are subject to coinflips? Hell no.
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On October 11 2011 14:50 Yamulo wrote:Show nested quote +On October 11 2011 14:44 jalstar wrote:
Not particularly, the top foreigners like Thorzain, Huk, Idra, Stephano, have always been able to beat mid-tier Koreans.
Thorzain over MC remains the biggest foreigner win, with maybe Huk over Nada in second. Huk over MC wasn't big?
not really pvp was so much build order loss
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nothing much has changed. the koreans are still very good. even if they are not the best of them
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Results are results, now i know there are more than a few foreigners that can take out koreans, hoping to see more in the future.
these 2 weeks has moderately changed my opinion of korean dominance.
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EPT
