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On October 14 2011 18:52 VTXShiva wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2011 09:06 SupLilSon wrote:On October 14 2011 08:32 VTXShiva wrote:On October 14 2011 08:08 SupLilSon wrote:
Until I see MVP or NesTea fall to a foreigner in a LAN competition or we see a foreigner (outside of IdrA) make a real showing in GSL, nothing about my opinion will change. Stephano got lucky(no pun intended) and didn't even play any of the top koreans invites at IEM. Nothing new was revealed about the KR-World skill gap. this kind of reasoning is exactly why i think people are biased. You attribute all of stephano's win to luck? "Luck" will always be on the side of the winner if we break it down. just because he didn't play who you wanted him to play doesn't mean he's no good or not as good. It just means the brackets ended up differently. it will ALWAYS happen. if you try to match-up 1european with 1 korean every single time in a,say Ro32 by the time you hit ro4 you'll notice at least once a korean eliminated a korean in ro16 or Ro8 and at least once a foreigner did the same. There really isn't a perfect way to gauge someone's skill. It's mainly why i really like the pool plays. it shows what people can do against each other. Maybe one's style doesn't work against Idra, but it does charms against say Ret or Lucky. At the same time pool plays are a perfect example why i think someone's skill isn't entirely related to the spot you hit. Just because X didn't reach Ro8 doesn't mean he wasn't good. it just means his last match-up wasn't what he needed to advance. It's not biased... how in the world is it biased? Lucky and TheSTC are not top level Koreans, not by a pretty long shot. That is an unbiased FACT. Neither of them are in Code S. That is a FACT. If Stephano had faced MMA in the finals instead of Lucky and had shown the same amount of skill and ease I would have no problem saying yea, the skill gap is closing... but no... Suppose the United States Olympic Football (soccer for americans) team played and beat a mid tier European team. Would have justify US> EU in football or even US = EU? HELL NO. All I am doing is looking at the situation realistically. In any sport, when rating skill you have to take into account the competition level. So just because a person didn't take a test to prove he can pass it, he automatically can't do it? That's some interesting logic. GSL alltogether is a korean thing. While some foreigners are working towards it, it is not the be all end all of starcraft competitive gaming. Many players don't strive for that. It's somewhat flawed to say GSL defines the competitive gaming worldwide. You're argumentation is besides the point. footbal to begin with is a team play. As long as half the group performs sub-par the whole group ends up performing sub-par no matter how good one individual is. You could argue that applies to starcraft.but the results are still individual. Did i at any point say koreans are still not the best? No, i didn't. Check out what i wrote one more time. Lucky beat Violet (now A),Boxer(A),Ryung(S) ,Ret and MMA(S) to get to the finals. That alone tells you he's very good. Heck. only one more win against S and lucky would've been S himself. Stephano also went through Violet(now A), then Inori, who incidentally beat MC(now A) and Huk(S), Stc and finally lucky(A). In pool play, Stephano lost against aLive(S) but won against Huk(S). Not to mention Lucky went 8-0 matchups, coming from open bracket. If you look at the whole picture suddenly his performance isn't as terrible as you make it seem. I'm not going to start breaking down each players individual performance that weekend or the match-ups themselves. They are how they are and is not a factor you can rule out.
The GSL is the litmus test. it's the most difficult tournament in the world where all the best players are. When the best players from GSL go to foreign tournaments, they curbstomp everyone they run into. MVP in MLG wasn't even competitive until he ran into his countrymen.
Basically, more of the worse Koreans are going to tourneys so more foreigners are getting wins, but the wins which truly matter aren't happening.
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I voted little to no change,
That is because I never thought of the skill gap as being that big.
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On October 14 2011 20:40 iamthedave wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2011 18:52 VTXShiva wrote:On October 14 2011 09:06 SupLilSon wrote:On October 14 2011 08:32 VTXShiva wrote:On October 14 2011 08:08 SupLilSon wrote:
Until I see MVP or NesTea fall to a foreigner in a LAN competition or we see a foreigner (outside of IdrA) make a real showing in GSL, nothing about my opinion will change. Stephano got lucky(no pun intended) and didn't even play any of the top koreans invites at IEM. Nothing new was revealed about the KR-World skill gap. this kind of reasoning is exactly why i think people are biased. You attribute all of stephano's win to luck? "Luck" will always be on the side of the winner if we break it down. just because he didn't play who you wanted him to play doesn't mean he's no good or not as good. It just means the brackets ended up differently. it will ALWAYS happen. if you try to match-up 1european with 1 korean every single time in a,say Ro32 by the time you hit ro4 you'll notice at least once a korean eliminated a korean in ro16 or Ro8 and at least once a foreigner did the same. There really isn't a perfect way to gauge someone's skill. It's mainly why i really like the pool plays. it shows what people can do against each other. Maybe one's style doesn't work against Idra, but it does charms against say Ret or Lucky. At the same time pool plays are a perfect example why i think someone's skill isn't entirely related to the spot you hit. Just because X didn't reach Ro8 doesn't mean he wasn't good. it just means his last match-up wasn't what he needed to advance. It's not biased... how in the world is it biased? Lucky and TheSTC are not top level Koreans, not by a pretty long shot. That is an unbiased FACT. Neither of them are in Code S. That is a FACT. If Stephano had faced MMA in the finals instead of Lucky and had shown the same amount of skill and ease I would have no problem saying yea, the skill gap is closing... but no... Suppose the United States Olympic Football (soccer for americans) team played and beat a mid tier European team. Would have justify US> EU in football or even US = EU? HELL NO. All I am doing is looking at the situation realistically. In any sport, when rating skill you have to take into account the competition level. So just because a person didn't take a test to prove he can pass it, he automatically can't do it? That's some interesting logic. GSL alltogether is a korean thing. While some foreigners are working towards it, it is not the be all end all of starcraft competitive gaming. Many players don't strive for that. It's somewhat flawed to say GSL defines the competitive gaming worldwide. You're argumentation is besides the point. footbal to begin with is a team play. As long as half the group performs sub-par the whole group ends up performing sub-par no matter how good one individual is. You could argue that applies to starcraft.but the results are still individual. Did i at any point say koreans are still not the best? No, i didn't. Check out what i wrote one more time. Lucky beat Violet (now A),Boxer(A),Ryung(S) ,Ret and MMA(S) to get to the finals. That alone tells you he's very good. Heck. only one more win against S and lucky would've been S himself. Stephano also went through Violet(now A), then Inori, who incidentally beat MC(now A) and Huk(S), Stc and finally lucky(A). In pool play, Stephano lost against aLive(S) but won against Huk(S). Not to mention Lucky went 8-0 matchups, coming from open bracket. If you look at the whole picture suddenly his performance isn't as terrible as you make it seem. I'm not going to start breaking down each players individual performance that weekend or the match-ups themselves. They are how they are and is not a factor you can rule out. The GSL is the litmus test. it's the most difficult tournament in the world where all the best players are. When the best players from GSL go to foreign tournaments, they curbstomp everyone they run into. MVP in MLG wasn't even competitive until he ran into his countrymen. Basically, more of the worse Koreans are going to tourneys so more foreigners are getting wins, but the wins which truly matter aren't happening.
Stephano beat MMA (Code S Ro4) in qualifying for the IPL3,
And after seeing Lucky play, I was like shocked how amazing he played. The slayers terrans looked like "wtf do we do now" lol!  Look fwd to see more play from him :D
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On October 14 2011 03:37 Djagulingu wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2011 00:20 icarly wrote:On October 13 2011 16:54 LXR wrote:On October 11 2011 14:44 jalstar wrote:
Not particularly, the top foreigners like Thorzain, Huk, Idra, Stephano, have always been able to beat mid-tier Koreans.
Thorzain over MC remains the biggest foreigner win, with maybe Huk over Nada in second. what about dimaga > nestea? that doesn't count? You could say that Nestea wasn't trying in the match... but you could also say that dimaga used magic.... non tvt mirrors will always be subject to coinflips and the inferior player having a shot at winning. What? So Nestea's wins at every single god damn motherfucking ZvZ except the ones against Dimaga are subject to coinflips? Hell no.
Nestea and Dimaga made 4 matches during dimagas stay in Korea (one was showmatch of them)
2 of them won by Nestea in straight up normal ZvZs.
The first dimaga won, was a 7 pool drone all-in against a hatch first, which is a 100% build order win. Even a Silver/Bronze player would win in this case against a grandmaster player.
The second game dimaga won, was pretty build order win from diamaga too. Dimaga played EXTREME greedy - went for 16 hatch, 16 gas, 16 pool and late roach tech and had economic lead. Such builds are quite risky, if the opponent goes for baneling aggression or early pools.
So I would say, that Dimaga only beat Nestea in one "normal" ZvZ.
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Calgary26004 Posts
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koreans are still best but foreigners are catching up FAST!!
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stephano beat lucky in 4 straight games. that really did change my perception. it couldve been blind luck, and lucky was nervous, but still!
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On October 11 2011 14:50 Yamulo wrote:Show nested quote +On October 11 2011 14:44 jalstar wrote:
Not particularly, the top foreigners like Thorzain, Huk, Idra, Stephano, have always been able to beat mid-tier Koreans.
Thorzain over MC remains the biggest foreigner win, with maybe Huk over Nada in second. Huk over MC wasn't big?
Idra beat MC convincingly at MLG (few MLGs back)
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anyone can win anytime. but the guy who practices more against the highest quality opponents is going to win the majority of the time.
not every time, but the vast majority of the time.
skill = natural talent + practice time + quality of opponent
So gap in skill is not shifting, in my opinion, due to 2 weeks of tournaments.
IPL3:
1. foreigner
2. korean
3. korean
4. korean
IEM Guangzhou
1. foreigner
2. foreigner
3. korean
4. foreigner
MLG Anaheim
1. korean
2. korean
3. korean
4. korean
5. korean
6. korean
7. foreigner
MLG Columbus
1. korean
2. korean
3. korean
4. foreigner
NASL
1. korean
2. korean
3. korean
4. korean
sure looks like a whole lot of koreans there
As Ace said after 2010 IEM World Championships, "Koreans own white dudes."
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On October 14 2011 18:52 VTXShiva wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2011 09:06 SupLilSon wrote:On October 14 2011 08:32 VTXShiva wrote:On October 14 2011 08:08 SupLilSon wrote:
Until I see MVP or NesTea fall to a foreigner in a LAN competition or we see a foreigner (outside of IdrA) make a real showing in GSL, nothing about my opinion will change. Stephano got lucky(no pun intended) and didn't even play any of the top koreans invites at IEM. Nothing new was revealed about the KR-World skill gap. this kind of reasoning is exactly why i think people are biased. You attribute all of stephano's win to luck? "Luck" will always be on the side of the winner if we break it down. just because he didn't play who you wanted him to play doesn't mean he's no good or not as good. It just means the brackets ended up differently. it will ALWAYS happen. if you try to match-up 1european with 1 korean every single time in a,say Ro32 by the time you hit ro4 you'll notice at least once a korean eliminated a korean in ro16 or Ro8 and at least once a foreigner did the same. There really isn't a perfect way to gauge someone's skill. It's mainly why i really like the pool plays. it shows what people can do against each other. Maybe one's style doesn't work against Idra, but it does charms against say Ret or Lucky. At the same time pool plays are a perfect example why i think someone's skill isn't entirely related to the spot you hit. Just because X didn't reach Ro8 doesn't mean he wasn't good. it just means his last match-up wasn't what he needed to advance. It's not biased... how in the world is it biased? Lucky and TheSTC are not top level Koreans, not by a pretty long shot. That is an unbiased FACT. Neither of them are in Code S. That is a FACT. If Stephano had faced MMA in the finals instead of Lucky and had shown the same amount of skill and ease I would have no problem saying yea, the skill gap is closing... but no... Suppose the United States Olympic Football (soccer for americans) team played and beat a mid tier European team. Would have justify US> EU in football or even US = EU? HELL NO. All I am doing is looking at the situation realistically. In any sport, when rating skill you have to take into account the competition level. So just because a person didn't take a test to prove he can pass it, he automatically can't do it? That's some interesting logic. GSL alltogether is a korean thing. While some foreigners are working towards it, it is not the be all end all of starcraft competitive gaming. Many players don't strive for that. It's somewhat flawed to say GSL defines the competitive gaming worldwide. You're argumentation is besides the point. footbal to begin with is a team play. As long as half the group performs sub-par the whole group ends up performing sub-par no matter how good one individual is. You could argue that applies to starcraft.but the results are still individual. Did i at any point say koreans are still not the best? No, i didn't. Check out what i wrote one more time. Lucky beat Violet (now A),Boxer(A),Ryung(S) ,Ret and MMA(S) to get to the finals. That alone tells you he's very good. Heck. only one more win against S and lucky would've been S himself. Stephano also went through Violet(now A), then Inori, who incidentally beat MC(now A) and Huk(S), Stc and finally lucky(A). In pool play, Stephano lost against aLive(S) but won against Huk(S). Not to mention Lucky went 8-0 matchups, coming from open bracket. If you look at the whole picture suddenly his performance isn't as terrible as you make it seem. I'm not going to start breaking down each players individual performance that weekend or the match-ups themselves. They are how they are and is not a factor you can rule out.
Honestly, It seems like my post went right over your head... This poll is all about people opinions and I really don't feel like I should try to hammer my point any harder. Your logic is flawed, not mine. It really seems like you misread/misinterpreted every point I make, or you are just arguing for the sake of arguing.
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On October 11 2011 14:56 ragealot wrote:
Anyone who watched last season's Code A can see the top foreigners are capable of beating Koreans, but it's more a question of can they compete with the best of Code S, NesTea/MVP/Bomber excluded. I'd say right now only about four or five are capable so nothing's changed.
while I can agree that the foreigner secene is catching up, they are still a long way from being equal to Korea. I could go into more detail explaing my reasons for saying that. but I am on my phone and do not feel like typing anymore.
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On October 15 2011 03:12 r0b0t wrote:Show nested quote +On October 11 2011 14:56 ragealot wrote:
Anyone who watched last season's Code A can see the top foreigners are capable of beating Koreans, but it's more a question of can they compete with the best of Code S, NesTea/MVP/Bomber excluded. I'd say right now only about four or five are capable so nothing's changed. while I can agree that the foreigner secene is catching up, they are still a long way from being equal to Korea. I could go into more detail explaing my reasons for saying that. but I am on my phone and do not feel like typing anymore.
Honestly, I don't think there is a single foreigner that could go againt MVP or NesTea in a series. Take games off them? Sure. Win in a series format? Not a chance. Also.. Remember that the best of the Koreans, were not even the top of koreans in SC1... What if FlaSh or JD or pretty much any SC1 pro moved over... the Koreans are still miles ahead even while top korean gaming talent is focused on an entirely different game.
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there is no skill gap. skill is an illusion, its all about practice and understanding the game.
koreans practice more so they understand more...thats it.
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Calgary26004 Posts
On October 15 2011 05:20 clanbrown wrote:
there is no skill gap. skill is an illusion, its all about practice and understanding the game.
koreans practice more so they understand more...thats it.
Do you understand what skill means?
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This poll is flawed, it assumes it knows what I thought of the "Skill gap" prior to the tournament.
why bother asking if my opinion has changed if you dont know my original opinion??
this poll is useless
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I personally do not care about the nations or the foreigner vs korean stuff, although I have to say that I do in fact respect koreans a lot more than foreigners personally, BUT:
Anyone who does still tries to underestimate Stephano is either dumb(sorry) or doesnt have a clue about Starcraft in general and cant understand what he watches. He is the number 2 zerg in the world right now (with a greater potential than the number 1), and I have been saying how good he is since the first game of him that I have watched.
It is not talking about results people or what has been accomplished or not, it is about understanding what one sees:
DONT YOU "SEE" THE HUGE DIFFERENCE IN THE PLAY OF THE PLAYER HIMSELF?
+ Show Spoiler +I am not french or tunisian
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On October 15 2011 06:15 Chill wrote:Show nested quote +On October 15 2011 05:20 clanbrown wrote:
there is no skill gap. skill is an illusion, its all about practice and understanding the game.
koreans practice more so they understand more...thats it. Do you understand what skill means?
IT'S ALL AN ILLUSION
WE'RE ALL FUCKING HIGH
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On October 15 2011 01:57 metbull wrote:
anyone can win anytime. but the guy who practices more against the highest quality opponents is going to win the majority of the time.
not every time, but the vast majority of the time.
skill = natural talent + practice time + quality of opponent
So gap in skill is not shifting, in my opinion, due to 2 weeks of tournaments.
IPL3:
1. foreigner
2. korean
3. korean
4. korean
IEM Guangzhou
1. foreigner
2. foreigner
3. korean
4. foreigner
MLG Anaheim
1. korean
2. korean
3. korean
4. korean
5. korean
6. korean
7. foreigner
MLG Columbus
1. korean
2. korean
3. korean
4. foreigner
NASL
1. korean
2. korean
3. korean
4. korean
sure looks like a whole lot of koreans there
As Ace said after 2010 IEM World Championships, "Koreans own white dudes."
Actually Moon said it, and it was a parody of Carmac's quote "Koreans own white dudes" in WC3 (which Carmac received a lot of criticism for).
I think the skill gap was that big to begin with. If you look at GSL, you can see the skill gap between the best Koreans and the avg Code S Koreans, I think it's not a gap that cannot be overcome. Well unless some foreign pros continue to practice like 2-3hrs a day...
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Koreans are simply better. No change at all from me.
Anyway, we have seen the absolute best of the foreigners beat the average Koreans. Wait until we see a Flash level of skill to come into SC2. Whoever that person is, they'll be Korean.
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I think that we are seeing the skill gap begin to close. I don't think we will see a major swing away from Korean dominance anytime soon. But my opinion beginning to change...slowly.. ^_^
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EPT
