EPTHave the results of IPL3 and IEM Guangzhou changed your op…
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CScythe
Canada810 Posts
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MooLen
Germany501 Posts
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Danglars
United States12133 Posts
Turns out I was wrong. So moderately changed, albeit in the week following the two listed. | ||
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drumsetjunky
United States136 Posts
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JulsFoF
49 Posts
On October 11 2011 14:43 Waxangel wrote: Hmm, considering that I always thought the BEST foreigners have a good shot against mid-level Koreans, and they still have almost no chance against the BEST Koreans, I don't think much has changed for me. same here | ||
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Cambam
United States360 Posts
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jinorazi
Korea (South)4948 Posts
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SupLilSon
Malaysia4123 Posts
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VTXShiva
Romania7 Posts
On October 14 2011 08:08 SupLilSon wrote: Until I see MVP or NesTea fall to a foreigner in a LAN competition or we see a foreigner (outside of IdrA) make a real showing in GSL, nothing about my opinion will change. Stephano got lucky(no pun intended) and didn't even play any of the top koreans invites at IEM. Nothing new was revealed about the KR-World skill gap. this kind of reasoning is exactly why i think people are biased. You attribute all of stephano's win to luck? "Luck" will always be on the side of the winner if we break it down. just because he didn't play who you wanted him to play doesn't mean he's no good or not as good. It just means the brackets ended up differently. it will ALWAYS happen. if you try to match-up 1european with 1 korean every single time in a,say Ro32 by the time you hit ro4 you'll notice at least once a korean eliminated a korean in ro16 or Ro8 and at least once a foreigner did the same. There really isn't a perfect way to gauge someone's skill. It's mainly why i really like the pool plays. it shows what people can do against each other. Maybe one's style doesn't work against Idra, but it does charms against say Ret or Lucky. At the same time pool plays are a perfect example why i think someone's skill isn't entirely related to the spot you hit. Just because X didn't reach Ro8 doesn't mean he wasn't good. it just means his last match-up wasn't what he needed to advance. | ||
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StatikKhaos
United States214 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + so basically this poll is almost meaningless | ||
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SupLilSon
Malaysia4123 Posts
On October 14 2011 08:32 VTXShiva wrote: this kind of reasoning is exactly why i think people are biased. You attribute all of stephano's win to luck? "Luck" will always be on the side of the winner if we break it down. just because he didn't play who you wanted him to play doesn't mean he's no good or not as good. It just means the brackets ended up differently. it will ALWAYS happen. if you try to match-up 1european with 1 korean every single time in a,say Ro32 by the time you hit ro4 you'll notice at least once a korean eliminated a korean in ro16 or Ro8 and at least once a foreigner did the same. There really isn't a perfect way to gauge someone's skill. It's mainly why i really like the pool plays. it shows what people can do against each other. Maybe one's style doesn't work against Idra, but it does charms against say Ret or Lucky. At the same time pool plays are a perfect example why i think someone's skill isn't entirely related to the spot you hit. Just because X didn't reach Ro8 doesn't mean he wasn't good. it just means his last match-up wasn't what he needed to advance. It's not biased... how in the world is it biased? Lucky and TheSTC are not top level Koreans, not by a pretty long shot. That is an unbiased FACT. Neither of them are in Code S. That is a FACT. If Stephano had faced MMA in the finals instead of Lucky and had shown the same amount of skill and ease I would have no problem saying yea, the skill gap is closing... but no... Suppose the United States Olympic Football (soccer for americans) team played and beat a mid tier European team. Would have justify US> EU in football or even US = EU? HELL NO. All I am doing is looking at the situation realistically. In any sport, when rating skill you have to take into account the competition level. | ||
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thane
United States407 Posts
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oxxo
988 Posts
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windsupernova
Mexico5280 Posts
IEM was just...weird. I still think the gap is there(and really foreigners let it grow too much) but its not as big as it was in BW. Until I see a foreigner doing well in Korea(I love Huk, but really he is just hanging in there in Code S. When FD and other korean players were doing the same we called them bad) I will change my mind about the skill gap | ||
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doner0
United States233 Posts
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KimJongChill
United States6429 Posts
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Nadarath
98 Posts
It would be much more fun when u had 15+ players that could take win in each tournament. I don't mind having like 1 player who is considered best - but still would be perfect if he wasn't out of reach of others. ps. Please don't forget every competition involves a bit of luck. I think i agree with opinion that every player needs bit luck in brackets. So dont start this whole crap about someone not wining legit because he got __lucky__ in brackets... | ||
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VTXShiva
Romania7 Posts
On October 14 2011 09:06 SupLilSon wrote: It's not biased... how in the world is it biased? Lucky and TheSTC are not top level Koreans, not by a pretty long shot. That is an unbiased FACT. Neither of them are in Code S. That is a FACT. If Stephano had faced MMA in the finals instead of Lucky and had shown the same amount of skill and ease I would have no problem saying yea, the skill gap is closing... but no... Suppose the United States Olympic Football (soccer for americans) team played and beat a mid tier European team. Would have justify US> EU in football or even US = EU? HELL NO. All I am doing is looking at the situation realistically. In any sport, when rating skill you have to take into account the competition level. So just because a person didn't take a test to prove he can pass it, he automatically can't do it? That's some interesting logic. GSL alltogether is a korean thing. While some foreigners are working towards it, it is not the be all end all of starcraft competitive gaming. Many players don't strive for that. It's somewhat flawed to say GSL defines the competitive gaming worldwide. You're argumentation is besides the point. footbal to begin with is a team play. As long as half the group performs sub-par the whole group ends up performing sub-par no matter how good one individual is. You could argue that applies to starcraft.but the results are still individual. Did i at any point say koreans are still not the best? No, i didn't. Check out what i wrote one more time. Lucky beat Violet (now A),Boxer(A),Ryung(S) ,Ret and MMA(S) to get to the finals. That alone tells you he's very good. Heck. only one more win against S and lucky would've been S himself. Stephano also went through Violet(now A), then Inori, who incidentally beat MC(now A) and Huk(S), Stc and finally lucky(A). In pool play, Stephano lost against aLive(S) but won against Huk(S). Not to mention Lucky went 8-0 matchups, coming from open bracket. If you look at the whole picture suddenly his performance isn't as terrible as you make it seem. I'm not going to start breaking down each players individual performance that weekend or the match-ups themselves. They are how they are and is not a factor you can rule out. | ||
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Fatze
Germany1342 Posts
On October 11 2011 14:44 endy wrote: Only a handful of foreigners can defeat Koreans, and not even consistently. Nothing changed. Totally agree | ||
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Vorenius
Denmark1979 Posts
Yeah, Idra beating Puma is amazing, but he even admitted that Puma is a far better player than him. Puma beat him 70-80% of the time when they were practising together. Of course Idra won when it mattered so it doesn't take anything away from him, but it certainly underlines the fact that koreans are way ahead of foreigners in general. Puma isn't even a top level korean. He hasn't been able to qualify for Code A yet. Now, the very very top level foreigners can compete with your average Code A/S player. Idra and HuK has had no problem getting into the GSL the seasons they have been playing and Jinro had back-to-back Ro4 showings. But these are the MVPs and NesTeas of the foreigners community, and they are still no where near the korean counterparts. Top foreigners beating average koreans changes nothing. | ||
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