EPTLook at me, replying to my own poll o/
Have the results of IPL3 and IEM Guangzhou changed your op…
| Forum Index > Polls & Liquibet |
Waxangel
United States33371 Posts
Look at me, replying to my own poll o/ | ||
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jalstar
United States8198 Posts
Thorzain over MC remains the biggest foreigner win, with maybe Huk over Nada in second. | ||
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endy
Switzerland8970 Posts
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Ruscour
5233 Posts
On October 11 2011 14:43 Waxangel wrote: Hmm, considering that I always thought the BEST foreigners always have a shot against mid-level Koreans, and they still have almost no chance against the BEST Koreans, I don't think much has changed for me. Look at me, replying to my own poll o/ Completely agree. | ||
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Mandalor
Germany2362 Posts
I don't feel like this is the case anymore. | ||
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Yamulo
United States2096 Posts
On October 11 2011 14:44 jalstar wrote: Not particularly, the top foreigners like Thorzain, Huk, Idra, Stephano, have always been able to beat mid-tier Koreans. Thorzain over MC remains the biggest foreigner win, with maybe Huk over Nada in second. Huk over MC wasn't big? | ||
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GrapeD
Canada679 Posts
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FrostedMiniWheats
United States30730 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + ![[image loading]](http://img.gomtv.net/userimg/0001/0643/34643.jpg) only zerg ever to do it in a televised series | ||
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theBALLS
Singapore2935 Posts
You may be special, but you're not going to be consistently dominant over someone who trains 10x as hard as you. Until foreigners are able to adhere to a regime akin to that of the koreans, the skill game will always be there. | ||
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ragealot
432 Posts
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Slusher
United States19143 Posts
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Drake
Germany6146 Posts
also alot of foreigns run in their worst matchups often or perfom WAY under skill (Idra every 2nd tournament see him vs ogsstc where he played not on 5%) i think it was just a matter of time and think! Stephano plays ~3 hours a day on ladder  not like 12 hour korean progaminmg schelude with train allysps: alot guys here forget hsc3 naniwa and huk beat mc, and that dimaga is the only zerg that crushed nestea (offline IN korea) | ||
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GhandiEAGLE
United States20754 Posts
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R0YAL
United States1768 Posts
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SpiritAshura
United States1271 Posts
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dala
Sweden477 Posts
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Yamulo
United States2096 Posts
On October 11 2011 14:54 FrostedMiniWheats wrote: + Show Spoiler + only zerg ever to do it in a televised series completely forgot about that ^^, yeah that was huge. Diamaga vs MVP as well ^^ | ||
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Doof
United States204 Posts
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lizzard_warish
589 Posts
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ThaZenith
Canada3116 Posts
If foreigners take half the tournaments over the course of 2-3 months, then I'll acknowledge it. | ||
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tredogz
Canada170 Posts
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Kaizoku
Sweden96 Posts
On October 11 2011 14:57 Slusher wrote: Lucky beating MMA and Ryung was a bigger suprise than Stephano beating Lucky +1 User was warned for this post | ||
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blacktar
United States49 Posts
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KIKIZerg
26 Posts
for the rest, i dont see any diffrence... | ||
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RiT4LiN
Netherlands131 Posts
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dcemuser
United States3248 Posts
On October 11 2011 15:35 ThaZenith wrote: Opinions on something as major as a skill level difference shouldn't change over a weekend or two. If foreigners take half the tournaments over the course of 2-3 months, then I'll acknowledge it. Agreed. However, there is a small improvement from like the early MLG era. The first MLG that did Korean invites, I think foreigners took like a total of 5 MAPS off Korean players. It was that bad. Still, the improvement isn't massive, so I voted little to none. | ||
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rift
1819 Posts
Though sc2 is a bit "chancy" to be PC about it | ||
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sickoota
Canada918 Posts
On October 11 2011 14:44 jalstar wrote: Not particularly, the top foreigners like Thorzain, Huk, Idra, Stephano, have always been able to beat mid-tier Koreans. Thorzain over MC remains the biggest foreigner win, with maybe Huk over Nada in second. Mana and Elfi both also beat Nada. | ||
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Lann555
Netherlands5173 Posts
Really, it was only Stephano anyway who prevented it from being another Korean dominated event and the guy is just a remarkable talent, so he might not be an accurate skill-gauge for the the entire foreign scene. To really say the skill-gap has decreased , you need to have some players like MVP/Bomber/Nestea/DRG or even a July/MMA/Losira/Top/Polt going down in BO5 to foreigner | ||
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synapse
China13814 Posts
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Rachnar
France1526 Posts
On October 11 2011 15:04 R0YAL wrote: The thing is that it's Korea vs the rest of the world and Korea still has the best of the best as well as a greater number of great players. Surely there will be a few individuals throughout the entirety of the planet that can compete with some of the better Koreans. But you have to remember that it's literally everyone vs the Koreans so a few players competing with the Koreans doesn't mean that foreigners as a whole can compete with Korea. thing is, in korea there's almsot as many people that play starcraft as in the rest of the world ... anyways, Korean's aren't human's, they're above us :p | ||
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Lysanias
Netherlands8351 Posts
But it is not consistent and more often they do not win, also there absolute top is simply better. So ... nothing changed, but it's such a good feeling to get a big tourney one's in a while. | ||
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setzer
United States3284 Posts
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MotherOfRunes
Germany2862 Posts
On October 11 2011 14:44 jalstar wrote: Not particularly, the top foreigners like Thorzain, Huk, Idra, Stephano, have always been able to beat mid-tier Koreans. Thorzain over MC remains the biggest foreigner win, with maybe Huk over Nada in second. nahhhh goody beating NESTEA (altough i know nestea had to play with KR on NA lag while thorzain and mc played their tsl match at a LAN event  ) | ||
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dAPhREAk
Nauru12397 Posts
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arterian
Canada1157 Posts
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jmbthirteen
United States10734 Posts
MLG Orlando will probably change this though as pretty much every Korean there with be Code S level... including the open bracket guys. | ||
tree.hugger
Philadelphia, PA10406 Posts
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xtfftc
United Kingdom2343 Posts
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jyisvip
Canada209 Posts
On October 11 2011 15:35 tredogz wrote: I have never thought there was that big of a gap between foreigners and Koreans.. I do NOT think Koreans play better than foreigners I guess you weren't watching most of the tournaments... | ||
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RAPiDCasting
Korea (South)594 Posts
The prevailing wisdom is that if you want to be good, play on KR/go to Korea. 3/4 players mentioned have done this. What impresses me is that Stephano seems to have done well without substantial KR training. I'm not really a fan, but I will be watching his GSL games with interest. | ||
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Atlant
Moldova1 Post
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lacho_u
Bulgaria535 Posts
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seansye
United States1722 Posts
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nailseater
France9 Posts
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Sitinte
United States499 Posts
On October 11 2011 17:53 Atlant wrote: The real korean jedi masters never leave korea to play foreign championships (mvp nestea july....) MVP was the winner of MLG Anaheim and he as well as Nestea are going to Blizzcon. I believe July played in the NASL as well as play in MLG Columbus (also getting invited to MLG Orlando) and went to Dreamhack in Sweden. You mean want some better examples :p (I get what you're trying to say though) | ||
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red4ce
United States7313 Posts
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figq
12519 Posts
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Xcobidoo
Sweden1871 Posts
On October 11 2011 17:53 Atlant wrote: The real korean jedi masters never leave korea to play foreign championships (mvp nestea july....) Congratulations, your first post was wrong :D | ||
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Goibon
New Zealand8185 Posts
I do eagerly await future events though with more interest, that's for sure. | ||
Ouga
Finland645 Posts
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Apollo_Shards
1210 Posts
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pPingu
Switzerland2892 Posts
The only ones to have beaten code s or a players are ret and whitera (if I didn't forget anybody). Everybody already knew that ret is a beast and mma wasn't prepare to play agaisnt whitera style. So koreans are still "way" ahead imo | ||
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deathly rat
United Kingdom911 Posts
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BigLighthouse
United Kingdom424 Posts
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bbm
United Kingdom1320 Posts
On October 11 2011 19:04 pPingu wrote: Stephano didn't beat any code s or even a korean (except lucky, but zvz is his worst mu) so... The only ones to have beaten code s or a players are ret and whitera (if I didn't forget anybody). Everybody already knew that ret is a beast and mma wasn't prepare to play agaisnt whitera style. So koreans are still "way" ahead imo in IPL3 (not including the qualifiers since they were online) stephano beat: code s: huk korean: thestc, lucky, boxer, violet, inori. I don't mind people trying to downplay his accomplishments based on the skill levels of his opponents, but don't just ignore the entire championship bracket (except for kiwikaki + lucky who you mentioned). Dont mistake his easier route than some for a complete cakewalk versus nobodies or something. --- Overall, I think the results do change a bit. Whereas skill-wise, I've always thought the top players are able to compete in the lower end of code a, I've never seen them as being capable of actually taking a tournament with koreans in. These have showed me that there's a possibility of this, which excites me immensely. While, say, a foreigner in code A always gets me going "Oh maybe they'll be able to pull through and win this one!" when it's a foreigner-korean match in, say, MLG, I just think "well koreans will sweep this as always". These latest tournaments have gone some way to dispelling that image in my mind. | ||
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Robinsa
Japan1333 Posts
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eoLithic
Norway221 Posts
Shouldn`t change anything imo. | ||
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bartus88
Netherlands491 Posts
A foreigner will probably never win the GSL, although statistically it may happen once. | ||
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fams
Canada731 Posts
On October 11 2011 14:43 Waxangel wrote: Hmm, considering that I always thought the BEST foreigners have a good shot against mid-level Koreans, and they still have almost no chance against the BEST Koreans, I don't think much has changed for me. Look at me, replying to my own poll o/ Such a badass Wax | ||
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yoshi245
United States2969 Posts
On October 11 2011 18:07 seansye wrote: The day a foreigner wins GSL is when I will vote significantly changed. This exactly, until a foreigner does that. Foreigners will always be seen as second banana to Koreans, despite what accomplishment they have. | ||
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mango_destroyer
Canada3914 Posts
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Sprouter
United States1724 Posts
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grappasc
Belgium86 Posts
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kickinhead
Switzerland2069 Posts
I also begin to feel like, although there are some very good Protoss around, we could really need some more Top-Toss players. I don't wanna talk imbalance, but with Korean Terrans and pretty many Zerg-Pro's already proofing that they are world-class, many Toss-players are very good, but didn't quite break that last barrier to become god-like, kinda like MC before everyone figured out his timings an he began slumping a bit (compared to winning everything before of course). ^^' | ||
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J1.au
Australia3596 Posts
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UnholyRai
720 Posts
However I think that once koreans study stephanos style, it will be the same old korean dominance again. i answered "moderately changed", because I was not expecting foreigners to win these tournys, specifically IPL3. | ||
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Headnoob
Australia2108 Posts
Happy as fuck that idra and stephano pulled out wins, but if we threw in an MVP for every ret/idra/huk (just examples) it'd just be embarrassing. Personally i think moonglade will one day be the SC2 god, for australia | ||
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Micket
United Kingdom2163 Posts
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minimalistic
Hungary157 Posts
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VTJRaen
United Kingdom238 Posts
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hysterial
United States2044 Posts
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SoniC_eu
Denmark1008 Posts
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Probe1
United States17920 Posts
On October 11 2011 14:43 Waxangel wrote: Look at me, replying to my own poll o/ doctors in white coats this way \o Feel the same way;; Give me 2 foreigners in the Ro8 and I'll hush but I feel like Stephano//Idras accomplishments are huge- just not as huge as home turf bringing the noise to Mok Dong | ||
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Thrill
2599 Posts
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DyEnasTy
United States3714 Posts
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docvoc
United States5491 Posts
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Jakkerr
Netherlands2549 Posts
But those mid tier koreans have a few very strong builds prepared where they can kill better players with if they aren't prepared well enough. So yeh.. top foreigners are better players, but not as well prepared which is why they have a lot of unneeded losses vs mid tier koreans | ||
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CatNzHat
United States1599 Posts
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Choboo
Sweden2088 Posts
On October 11 2011 14:44 jalstar wrote: Not particularly, the top foreigners like Thorzain, Huk, Idra, Stephano, have always been able to beat mid-tier Koreans. Thorzain over MC remains the biggest foreigner win, with maybe Huk over Nada in second. You do know that Elfi, Kiwikaki and Mana has also beat Nada right? | ||
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sVnteen
Germany2238 Posts
so nothing changed for me here xD | ||
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Elem
Sweden4717 Posts
all that needs to be said. | ||
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DeadCell
Canada256 Posts
It wasn't even close. I was really expecting it to be a little more drawn out then that. After Idra had defeated Puma, I was quite confident he would win; He had to go through Revival, and THEN Puma. Quite the task if you ask me. | ||
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ComusLoM
Norway3547 Posts
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NotSorry
United States6722 Posts
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darthcaesar
United States475 Posts
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mnck
Denmark1518 Posts
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Asha
United Kingdom38239 Posts
Might be a bit cynical but this was bound to happen at some point given the nature of the game; it needs to become a repeated trend before I think it will really affect my perception of where the balance of power lies though. Chances are that this weekend IEM NY gets rolled by TOP (if he's not too worried about his up&down group) and a KR player takes down MLG too, and then everything looks the same as it did before. | ||
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Haustka
United States221 Posts
However, if foreigners have any chance of beating Koreans in their own soil, they need to have system thats similar or same to what Korea offers to their players. The major reason why foreigners are struggling compare to Koreans is purely coming from the practice. Koreans have the right system that supports quality and quantity of practice to success in the esports. As long as foreigners dont get that similar amount and quality practices, we will never reach the level that Koreans have. | ||
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Ryncol
United States980 Posts
On October 11 2011 23:19 Choboo wrote: You do know that Elfi, Kiwikaki and Mana has also beat Nada right? Frankly, I don't really think that Nada is a top level Korean. He seems more like an upper mid-tier player to me. I don't think that any of those player's wins over him are as big as Thorzain's over MC. | ||
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coolzombie
Sweden25 Posts
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danl9rm
United States3111 Posts
On October 11 2011 14:44 jalstar wrote: Not particularly, the top foreigners like Thorzain, Huk, Idra, Stephano, have always been able to beat mid-tier Koreans. Thorzain over MC remains the biggest foreigner win, with maybe Huk over Nada in second. This right here. I always thought the best foreigners could do moderately well against the Koreans, even some top-tier, but Thorzain over MC, man, I cried, almost. Those games were great. | ||
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ThatGuy89
United Kingdom1968 Posts
It wasnt filled with high level koreans at all imo and yet every korean lost to another korean, apart from idra vs artist (come on, wtf was that about?) Ret vs alive and ofc stephanos run. stephano played brilliantly, but i think people are slightly bigging him up. I dont think he'd take out the likes of mvp, mma, DRG. one tournament, where a foreigner wins that has pretty much all the best non koreans in, and only a handful of decent koreans, and people think that all koreans are suddenly worse or something we'll see after a few more MLGsd and such, until then, there is still a huge gap in skill imo | ||
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Voldron
Greece91 Posts
On October 11 2011 14:43 Waxangel wrote: Hmm, considering that I always thought the BEST foreigners have a good shot against mid-level Koreans, and they still have almost no chance against the BEST Koreans, I don't think much has changed for me. Look at me, replying to my own poll o/ 100% | ||
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Wallice
Norway10 Posts
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LeKiNGG
Canada110 Posts
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CNSnow
Greece67 Posts
I see this gap will come to an end in helf year or a little more! | ||
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bobwhiz
United States725 Posts
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ptrpb
Canada753 Posts
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Sea_Food
Finland1612 Posts
So no, I have never, or at least in multiple months, felt that koreans would be above others. | ||
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Skwid1g
United States953 Posts
On October 11 2011 22:58 KingPwny wrote: I'm pretty sure if an American took the IPL 3, the forums would be going nuts. I for one, am extremely pleased that a european took the IPL in convincing and entertaining fashion (yes u should watch kiwi vs. stephano *drool*). I dont believe there is some crazy big change now in skill lvls, but that europeans are slowly catching up to the koreans and this shows. But make no mistake, the koreans are still the strongest. As for NA, well maybe someday they too can win big tournies, but it seems they have a long ways to go at the moment. :D WELL DONE STEPHANO! :D ... What? Idra JUST won IEM not too long ago. Huk is the only foreigner in Code S and he's from... you guessed it, North America! It's like you were just trying to find a way to say "EU > NA" for some reason. | ||
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States44300 Posts
Little to no change. | ||
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PiRate647
Belgium187 Posts
"upsets" are small koreans beating big ones | ||
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Carny
Croatia284 Posts
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Thorakh
Netherlands1788 Posts
At the moment it seems the foreigners are barely catching the train. | ||
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Oreo7
United States1647 Posts
So nope, no change. | ||
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Kuzmorgo
Hungary1058 Posts
Changed my opinion compared to what? Compared to BW we came a long long way. But its not like foreigners dominated the tourney. Stephano won! And I am very happy about it!! But I always thought we had a chance against the koreans. Like in TSL. | ||
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Erasme
Bahamas15899 Posts
On October 12 2011 04:15 Oreo7 wrote: Very mid tier koreans beaten by tip top foreigners. Honestly I would discouraged by people like HuK a "top foreigner" going out so early, and all the other foreigners who keep losing ro32 in Code A. So nope, no change. MMA, PuMa, TheSTC and Lucky who made a nice entry. Sure when foreigners beat Korean at non-lan it's because of lags, and when it's a lan, they're all newbs so it doesn't count. Can we just say that the gaps is reducing little by little ? If a monster like Stephano grew up with only 4hours a day and no house gaming, imagine what we can do ... | ||
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ppshchik
United States862 Posts
Def. a big improvement over Broodwar though, many foreign Broodwar "progamers" weren't even close to being as good as Korean amateur players. | ||
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epoc
Finland1190 Posts
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polysciguy
United States488 Posts
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nakedsurfer
Canada500 Posts
If any korean wins an event it's "OMG they're so good!!!"(doens't matter which korean wins it too...) but when a foreigner wins it, it's "oh that isn't The best korean player and therefor it doesn't count." Really?... If anything the question most of you are answering is how much better are the top players. not how well do korean and foreginer players do against eachother because obviously they can compete against one another with good games. Besides Dimaga has beaten ImNestea and Huk has beaten MC. Surely that means that the "Gosu Koreans" can be touched. Oh right i forget that was just a 1 best of 3 and he got lucky or Nestea wasn't trying or since it was mirror matchup which is 100% luck(Herp Durp!) | ||
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vitonga
United States45 Posts
...I guess not. | ||
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kilergrunt
United States263 Posts
On October 11 2011 14:44 endy wrote: Only a handful of foreigners can defeat Koreans, and not even consistently. Nothing changed. My thoughts exactly, a few players get some wins and almost every one is getting ahead of them-self. | ||
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Kennigit
Canada19447 Posts
On October 12 2011 03:21 Skwid1g wrote: ... What? Idra JUST won IEM not too long ago. Huk is the only foreigner in Code S and he's from... you guessed it, North America! It's like you were just trying to find a way to say "EU > NA" for some reason. As great as idra's win was, i think it's hard to say that it was a defining moment for foreigners turning the ship around. He did have a tough time in groups and while his games vs Puma were really well played, there was clearly a few other factors at hand (namely, the condition of TvZ). I think the real big test is MLG. | ||
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1Eris1
United States5797 Posts
Idra and Jinro proved 6+ months ago that the top foreigners could compete with all but the best of the Koreans. (Even then, they both showed they could take games off of guys like MC or MVP) Why is this being brought up now? Idra beat Puma, a Code B player in IEM Stephano beat Lucky and theStc, Code B/A players. The only real suprise was Ret beating Alive. But then he got smashed by another korean the next round. Fact: The average Korean pro is better than the average foreigner pro. Fact: Top foreigner pros can compete with all but the pinnacle of Korean pros. And even, they can give them a run for their money once in a while. Opinion/Fact: Foreigners are ocassionally going to beat top level koreans. However, 9/10, it will be the other way around. P.S. Stephano is good. He's not Code S though. Don't make him out to be something like that until he actually does it. | ||
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Incognoto
France10239 Posts
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Steel
Japan2283 Posts
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Ardure
4 Posts
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Faraday5001
England51 Posts
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Erasme
Bahamas15899 Posts
On October 12 2011 05:44 Kennigit wrote: As great as idra's win was, i think it's hard to say that it was a defining moment for foreigners turning the ship around. He did have a tough time in groups and while his games vs Puma were really well played, there was clearly a few other factors at hand (namely, the condition of TvZ). I think the real big test is MLG. Still terran favored. Thanks for that. But we'll see at MLG if Stephano can hold his own a second time :D | ||
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KingAce
United States471 Posts
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TemplarCo.
Mexico2870 Posts
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Necro)Phagist(
Canada6644 Posts
If MLG Orlando doesn't havea pure Korean top 8 I might change my mind. But with Polt, MKP MVP MC etc. coming over I don't see that happening. | ||
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OmniEulogy
Canada6592 Posts
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Torte de Lini
Germany38463 Posts
People tend to glamorize one event or specific match and make a generalization. | ||
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DoomsVille
Canada4885 Posts
But the top koreans (MVP, NesTea, Bomber) still blow away all foreigners. IPL3/IEM have just reaffirmed by beliefs. We will find out for certain when blizzcon/wcg/blizzard cup roll around. | ||
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Pyskee
United States620 Posts
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Narcotic
Italy101 Posts
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Shebuha
Canada1335 Posts
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fant0m
964 Posts
On October 12 2011 07:32 DoomsVille wrote: I've always thought the top foreigners were Code S level. They can compete against most koreans. But the top koreans (MVP, NesTea, Bomber) still blow away all foreigners. IPL3/IEM have just reaffirmed by beliefs. We will find out for certain when blizzcon/wcg/blizzard cup roll around. Makes sense, since those 3 blow away everyone else in Code S on a regular basis. | ||
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AnxiousHippo
Australia1451 Posts
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TigerKarl
1757 Posts
There's no genetic reasons why koreans are better in general, but it's the influence of the environment that helps them develope their skills to a higher level. Top Foreigners are not less talented than top koreans, in fact there's more top talents in non-korean countries, simply because of the population numbers of korea and the rest of the world. | ||
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Luepert
United States1933 Posts
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Orcasgt24
Canada3238 Posts
On October 11 2011 14:44 jalstar wrote: Not particularly, the top foreigners like Thorzain, Huk, Idra, Stephano, have always been able to beat mid-tier Koreans. Thorzain over MC remains the biggest foreigner win, with maybe Huk over Nada in second. Dimaga over Neastea is also a big upset. QXC's all kill in GSTL and Fenix 3 kill are also decent upsets As for teh poll i voted slight change. I have a feeling the recent patch may have something to do with it though. Everyone is still kinda feeling the new game out still. | ||
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Kroml
Turkey308 Posts
I think It's all about efficient practice and their ways of practice. I think they really know how to practice efficiently and they are taking that efficient practice and doing it for 10 hours a day. Anyone who is smart will become something if you show him whats important, how to practice, and put him in a room of computers filled with smart ppl like him. If you have noticed most of the non-Korean famous "skilled" players say "I am trying to forget what I know because I've started to learn from the beginning". (i.e. NaNiWa). Do you know why they say this? "The practice system and how they approach the game" Playing Brood-War for 10 years like a national-sport gave them unmeasurable amount of insight. They are using it well. By saying all these I am not denying the reality of natural skill in this strategy game, I am saying is it's not because of "being korean" it's individually spread like any other activities (playing an instrument, being more talented in math, being an actor etc.) To conclude, it was never "Koreans are more skilled" for me, so it didn't change anything. It was always "they have the most efficient practice system and a mountain of accumulated game-insight". | ||
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koolaid1990
831 Posts
On October 12 2011 08:50 Luepert wrote: What About QXC? Srrsly, the bandanna man gets no love. because he hasn't shown any results. Besides all-killing IM and when he did, he was praised but that was ages ago. and all-killing IM isn't as praiseworthy as it would seem if losira/nestea wasn't part of it | ||
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iiGreetings
Canada563 Posts
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Theeakoz
United States1114 Posts
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Mr Showtime
United States1353 Posts
On October 11 2011 14:43 Waxangel wrote: Hmm, considering that I always thought the BEST foreigners have a good shot against mid-level Koreans, and they still have almost no chance against the BEST Koreans, I don't think much has changed for me. Look at me, replying to my own poll o/ I agree that the best Koreans still stand far ahead of all foreigners, but I think it's safe to say that the best foreigners now have more than a "good shot" at beating mid level Koreans. It's pretty even in my opinion. | ||
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vVvPastry
United States244 Posts
The Koreans at IEM were mid tier. The Ipl tournament was weird and if this went just a tad bit differently such as boxer not stepping on a baneling bomb and knocking out lucky I think Ryung might have won considering he 3-1ed stephano. But yea the Koreans still dominated the top of the bracket just with a foreign winner not really the biggest of deals. | ||
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I_Love_Bacon
United States5765 Posts
What is important to keep in perspective is that, "the best Korean," is a very selective group. I think most people's lists would only run like 8 names deep, maybe a little more. And if you're within reach of those players and able to takes games off of them, even if not series, that is certainly saying something. | ||
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Dakota69
United States51 Posts
On October 11 2011 14:54 theBALLS wrote: Foreigners have the soul, koreans have the regiment. You may be special, but you're not going to be consistently dominant over someone who trains 10x as hard as you. Until foreigners are able to adhere to a regime akin to that of the koreans, the skill game will always be there. This guy said it, that's why foreigners who go and train in Korea are the ones that are able to keep up. It's not like Koreans are genetically better....well, not THAT much genetically better ^^ | ||
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Kazeyonoma
United States2912 Posts
Stephanos results were surprising but not trend changing. | ||
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Maynarde
Australia1286 Posts
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Ownos
United States2147 Posts
You have foreigner every now and then that can do well, but to no real consistently. Koreans still dominate the upper tiers of foreign tournaments. Only other foreigners were Idra and Ret in the top 8 at IPL3. | ||
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jax1492
United States1632 Posts
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MadNeSs
Denmark1507 Posts
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barkles
United States285 Posts
(2) There are always statistical outliers in every large enough sample size (meaning that if koreans play foreigners enough, the foreigners are bound to win sometimes). Since the time of Moon's famous "Koreans own white dudes" saying, there have been precious few victories for non-Korean trained (read: not HuK or Jinro, and maybe even IdrA) foreigners in events which mid- to top-level Koreans have participated. | ||
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jyisvip
Canada209 Posts
On October 12 2011 11:45 MadNeSs wrote: Well stephano shoved something else. He might be the best zerg on the world. And I am certain he would rape Nestea, in a ZvZ any day of the week. And he probably has a good chance against MVP (Who I consider the best korean in the world) to beat him. But hopefully we will see that some day. Really? NesTea? The guy with 92% win rate in zvz? | ||
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magnaflow
Canada1521 Posts
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legendre20
United States316 Posts
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LAN-f34r
New Zealand2099 Posts
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Greggle
United States1131 Posts
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Protocon
United States255 Posts
Think about it this way; if you place foreigners through the gsl system, qualifiers and all, not very many would make it far. | ||
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poor newb
United States1879 Posts
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Keone
United States812 Posts
I'm definitely not taking anything away from Stephano but at the same time, one foreigner in one tournament in a Lucky draw is not going to change much for me. | ||
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BreakfastTea
United States184 Posts
On October 12 2011 11:45 MadNeSs wrote: Well stephano shoved something else. He might be the best zerg on the world. And I am certain he would rape Nestea, in a ZvZ any day of the week. And he probably has a good chance against MVP (Who I consider the best korean in the world) to beat him. But hopefully we will see that some day. So, stephano won one tournament where he played mid-tier Korean pros and we're all supposed to suddenly crown him the best zerg on earth? Ease off the gas, friend, you've been sipping too much kool-aid. | ||
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HappyChris
1534 Posts
We do actually see it all the time recently. MaNa beating puma both online and offline. Idra beating puma and revival. Dimaga completly destroying JYP that got one of korea´s best PvZ atm. Socke beating killer quite easy in a pvp at IEM. Tod beating slayersAlicia 2 times at an MLG PvP. Mirror matches comes down to micro and mechanics so when some of best protoss can beat some of the best korean protoss in a mirror match it says alot. Ret beating Alive etc the list goes on and on Thorzain in Dreamhack valancia and GSTL. And ofc Stephano´s complet domination in all matchup in IPL vs all those koreans qualifier and the live final. It wasnt even close You have to be really single minded if you cant see a trend here. Our best foreigners can beat and compete with the best korea have to offer im so sure. And we got more to come. Alot of talant is finally comming out from the foreigners scene atm. Just wait until Nerchio and MaNa go into beast mode | ||
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BreakfastTea
United States184 Posts
On October 12 2011 14:17 HappyChris wrote: Our best foreigners can beat and compete with the best korea has to offer im quite sure about that. We do actually see it all the time recently. MaNa beating puma both online and offline. Idra beating puma and revival. Dimaga completly destroying JYP that got one of korea´s best PvZ atm. Socke beating killer quite easy in a pvp at IEM. Tod beating slayersAlicia 2 times at an MLG PvP. Mirror matches comes down to micro and mechanics so when some of best protoss can beat some of the best korean protoss in a mirror match it says alot. Ret beating Alive etc the list goes on and on Thorzain in Dreamhack valancia and GSTL. And ofc Stephano´s complet domination in all matchup in IPL vs all those koreans qualifier and the live final. It wasnt even close You have to be really single minded if you cant see a trend here. Our best foreigners can beat and compete with the best korea have to offer im so sure. And we got more to come. Alot of talant is finally comming out from the foreigners scene atm. Just wait until Nerchio and MaNa go into beast mode Except I would add that foreigner's are continually beating the same Koreans or Koreans are who are only mid-tier. And this is to be expected, due to familiarity in the first case and simple statistic probability due to increased interaction in the second. Also, when big names have lost, it's a game, or a single series. We aren't seeing anything close to consistent performance. That doesn't mean we shouldn't be optimistic, but let's not get ahead of ourselves. | ||
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chrisolo
Germany2606 Posts
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shawster
Canada2485 Posts
puma has meh tvz and i'm not surprised with greg beating him get like ganzi/taeja/nestea to go north america. | ||
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Zeroxk
Norway1244 Posts
On October 12 2011 14:17 HappyChris wrote: Our best foreigners can beat and compete with the best korea has to offer im quite sure about that. We do actually see it all the time recently. MaNa beating puma both online and offline. Idra beating puma and revival. Dimaga completly destroying JYP that got one of korea´s best PvZ atm. Socke beating killer quite easy in a pvp at IEM. Tod beating slayersAlicia 2 times at an MLG PvP. Mirror matches comes down to micro and mechanics so when some of best protoss can beat some of the best korean protoss in a mirror match it says alot. Ret beating Alive etc the list goes on and on Thorzain in Dreamhack valancia and GSTL. And ofc Stephano´s complet domination in all matchup in IPL vs all those koreans qualifier and the live final. It wasnt even close You have to be really single minded if you cant see a trend here. Our best foreigners can beat and compete with the best korea have to offer im so sure. And we got more to come. Alot of talant is finally comming out from the foreigners scene atm. Just wait until Nerchio and MaNa go into beast mode Out of those players the only Code S player you named was Alive and Killer(who has suspect PvP). Please don't get ahead of yourself. If Stephano and Lucky had swapped places in the bracket and Stephano still gotten to the finals I would've been impressed, but he had the luck of the draw to dodge the best players there. Do you really think the best foreigners can beat mvp, nestea, bomber etc? MVP and Bomber already went to MLG and roflstomped everyone | ||
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Dante_A_
United States161 Posts
Koreans who lost to Foreigners + Show Spoiler + Artist Alive Violet (Stephano) Inori (S) TheSTC (S) Lucky (S) Foreigners knocked out by Koreans + Show Spoiler + Haypro Socke Sheth Minigun CatZ Machine Strelok White-Ra Huk Ret Idra Koreans knocked out by Koreans + Show Spoiler + Boxer (Lucky) Hero MC Ryung (L) Sleep Select Puma MMA (L) Stephano amounted to more than half of the Foreigner wins against Koreans. He had to play 4/5 Koreans, an impressive championship run. Lucky had a great run too, who's wins against Boxer/Ret/Ryung/MMA are notable. It remains that arguably the top 5 pre-tournament favorites were all knocked out by another Korean (MMA, Hero, MC, Puma, Ryung). I guess I'm impressed with Idra and Stephano, but not necessary by the foreigner group in general. I think the top 5-6 Foreigners could compete in Code S and show good games. I think it drops off after that, the next 15 best could probably be competitive in Code A/Qualifiers, although the qualifiyers for Code A are so brutal that I'm not sure they would make it through if not given an automatic Code A spot. So many good players don't make it through those, and those are supposed to be the Koreans outside of the top 64. I think it would be reasonable to say that the 10th best Foreigner is about as good as the 100-150th best Korean, so it drops off fairly quickly outside of the top few. | ||
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Larryx
Poland148 Posts
GSL is crap due to its format (sadly MLG too) and Artosis is biggest bullshit spreading guy on the planet. | ||
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Tofugrinder
Austria899 Posts
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Wroshe
Netherlands1051 Posts
While that was a very much needed win for IdrA you can't look past these two things. * He was struggling in group stages and only made it out because Elfi decided to play his last group match seriously. * IEM's Korean invites besides PuMa weren't that strong. JYP is a new face who made it to RO8 in Code A and PuMa/RevivaL/Jinro aren't even in code A. Also it was curious to me that Jinro was invited as a Korean but that is another matter. IPL however did change my opinion although only slightly. For what's stated below I'll only take the final bracket in consideration and will ignore the pool play; because that didn't really matter. While it gave us the first foreigner victory in a LAN tournament with serious Korean representation after HuK's win at DreamHack not all that much has changed. * Only Ret and Stephano managed to beat Korean's that are on Korean teams; IdrA beat a Korean on a foreign team. (What's Artist's situation? Living in Korea practicing alone?) * Any comments about Stephano only beating code B players should be dismissed as garbage: the reason he only beat Code B players is because he didn't have to play any Code A/S players. Reason he didn't have to play them is because they weren't good enough to win their half of the bracket which is their fault, not Stephano's. At the end of the day however it still proved the idea that top foreigners can beat koreans. The only new thing is that we finally found one that can beat enough of them to win a tournament. | ||
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SoniC_eu
Denmark1008 Posts
On October 12 2011 05:34 nakedsurfer wrote: You guys are so negative and in my eyes kind of retarded. If any korean wins an event it's "OMG they're so good!!!"(doens't matter which korean wins it too...) but when a foreigner wins it, it's "oh that isn't The best korean player and therefor it doesn't count." Really?... If anything the question most of you are answering is how much better are the top players. not how well do korean and foreginer players do against eachother because obviously they can compete against one another with good games. Besides Dimaga has beaten ImNestea and Huk has beaten MC. Surely that means that the "Gosu Koreans" can be touched. Oh right i forget that was just a 1 best of 3 and he got lucky or Nestea wasn't trying or since it was mirror matchup which is 100% luck(Herp Durp!) I couldnt agree more. We all agree that Koreans are the best. But it would be folly to downplay the recent events. And to those saying stephano had a easy run to the top, I dont think he did (someone insinuated he had a "easy" run to the top). I am not downplaying Idra winning IEM either, I was impressed when he beat Puma 3-0, that was a nice moment But stephano beat in the groupplay, qualifying and championship (if we only count koreans) Revival, Puzzle, MMA, Boxer, Inori, theSTC, and Lucky. I am quite sure that counts for something (regardless of how you categorize them), and regardless of you negative nancys! Lucky spanking the slayers terran boys was also extremely noteworthy and might mark a change in this overall matchup.Digression: something someone else pointed out. Koreans are the foreigners (since we dont live in korea). It's a bit odd if we call ourselves foreigners isnt it? Is it a carryover from BW or something? For a sc2 player its a bit odd hehe. | ||
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Tommylew
Wales2717 Posts
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T0fuuu
Australia2275 Posts
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Djagulingu
Germany3605 Posts
Population of Rest of the World: ~6.5 billion. Enough said. Korea and rest of the world clashes every single time and still Korea is better. In BW, it was just one sided. Last bits of WC3 was the same too. And now SC2. Same story, different video game. | ||
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michielbrands
Netherlands1146 Posts
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michielbrands
Netherlands1146 Posts
On October 12 2011 17:48 Djagulingu wrote: Population of Korea: 40 million. Population of Rest of the World: ~6.5 billion. Enough said. Korea and rest of the world clashes every single time and still Korea is better. In BW, it was just one sided. Last bits of WC3 was the same too. And now SC2. Same story, different video game. Don't think the Koreans really dominated the scene, they were good. But far from unbeatable. In the last bits of wc3 it was more that most top europeans switched to sc2..... | ||
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KAPdlight
United Kingdom61 Posts
inori is a coach and hasnt theSTC or Lucky recently come out of the army? its a testament to how good the korean players overall can be, and the fact nobody knows how to deal with stephano's crackling style at the moment | ||
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Tofugrinder
Austria899 Posts
On October 12 2011 18:27 KAPdlight wrote: and hasnt theSTC or Lucky recently come out of the army? STC, about 2-3 months ago if i'm correct. but I think he trains fulltime at the ogs house right now | ||
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Koshi
Belgium38799 Posts
ThorZain beating MC (for TL cup) when they were both in Europe. Stephano winning a tournament that had MMA, Puma, Ryung, Lucky and other good tier Koreans in it. Those 3 are the big wins foreigners had. EIM Guangzhou is 4th. Homestory cup was a PvP and only MC was there... | ||
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bana
Germany22 Posts
On October 11 2011 16:15 Rachnar wrote: thing is, in korea there's almsot as many people that play starcraft as in the rest of the world ... Definitely not. They are a lot of more players in the Rest of the world playing SC2 as in Korea. (South)Korea hasn't even a big population. And you have to know, that SC2 is still a minor game in Korea. Broodwar is still bigger there, so comparing the "Foreign SC2" Scene with "Korean SC2 Scene" is nearly like comparing the "Korean BW Scene" to the "Foreign BW Scene". | ||
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Itsmedudeman
United States19229 Posts
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Wroshe
Netherlands1051 Posts
On October 12 2011 19:22 Koshi wrote: Jinro beating Koreans in his first 2 GSLs ThorZain beating MC (for TL cup) when they were both in Europe. Stephano winning a tournament that had MMA, Puma, Ryung, Lucky and other good tier Koreans in it. Those 3 are the big wins foreigners had. EIM Guangzhou is 4th. Homestory cup was a PvP and only MC was there... Honestly I feel that HuK's Dreamhack victory is as big as those three. Winning a tournament with MC, Moon, July and Bomber is very good. Although I will agree that HuK also had some luck with the brackets there (He with July on one end, Moon MC and Bomber on the other one) | ||
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Mabilis
United States162 Posts
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Bobster
Germany3075 Posts
Always thought the level at the top was close across regions, and that we've seen a ton of close games before (that more often than not turned out in the Korean's favour) - was only a matter of time before those close games produce less one-sided results. | ||
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hmunkey
United Kingdom1973 Posts
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OCsurfeR
United States195 Posts
The foreigner scene is not going to catch up to the Korean scene in the first year. It may even take several years, but evidence that the evolution is occurring is veritable. So sit back, enjoy the games, root for your foreigner heroes and know that in time the foreigner scene can and likely will rival the Korean scene. | ||
NonY
8748 Posts
On October 12 2011 17:48 Djagulingu wrote: Population of Korea: 40 million. Population of Rest of the World: ~6.5 billion. Enough said. Not enough said. Why do these populations matter? I think the relevant populations are the number of SC2 players practicing 8+ hours a day (already pro) and the number of SC2 players practicing 20+ hours a week and trying their best to get as good as they can. It doesn't matter how many people in a country aren't playing SC2 or how many people are playing SC2 casually or how many "pro" SC2 players are half-assing it. What matters is the number of people trying to be pro and actually putting in the effort. Korea has the highest number for any country, and I think they still have the highest number when counting the entire rest of the world as one country. | ||
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caradoc
Canada3022 Posts
As others have said, I think the best foreigners are on par with mid tier Koreans-- some in code S/A. ALSO, People make a lot out of 'korean work ethic' and all, but I don't think that's necessarily as much a factor as people make it out to be. If this were true, Korean mechanics would be head and shoulders above everyone else, there may be an average difference across the general population, but I don't think this is the case at the very top. Practice environment probably makes a difference, yeah, but I think rather than 'work ethic', a much bigger factor is the fact that the overall culture is still much more developed in Korea, and you see more cutting edge builds/strats coming out of korea, making the scene in general just ahead of the curve. This will be even more exaggerated within a team environment. Decision making is attuned to what you come to expect a player to do in a given scenario, which is obviously impacted if your environment is slightly ahead of current trends elsewhere. You will have the advantage of knowing likely decisions your opponent will make, who will have less an advantage over you-- blue flame hellions and terran mech play in MLG Anaheim is a pretty obvious example. EDIT: On October 13 2011 00:11 Liquid`Tyler wrote: I think the relevant populations are the number of SC2 players practicing 8+ hours a day (already pro) and the number of SC2 players practicing 20+ hours a week and trying their best to get as good as they can. It doesn't matter how many people in a country aren't playing SC2 or how many people are playing SC2 casually or how many "pro" SC2 players are half-assing it. What matters is the number of people trying to be pro and actually putting in the effort. Korea has the highest number for any country, and I think they still have the highest number when counting the entire rest of the world as one country. I kind of agree with this as well-- though I look at it more at a systemic rather than an individual level-- the prevalence of people trying to be pro accelerates the development of the game in Korea with respect to the rest of the world. | ||
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pHelix Equilibria
United States1134 Posts
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Mr Showtime
United States1353 Posts
On October 12 2011 11:45 MadNeSs wrote: Well stephano shoved something else. He might be the best zerg on the world. And I am certain he would rape Nestea, in a ZvZ any day of the week. And he probably has a good chance against MVP (Who I consider the best korean in the world) to beat him. But hopefully we will see that some day. You can weigh in on the matter when you've watched Nestea play.... | ||
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QTIP.
United States2113 Posts
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Caddy
United Kingdom178 Posts
I don't think that there is any reason for the Koreans to always be better than foreigners, however. The foreigners just have to put in the effort to catch up, although there is no doubt that it is tough. Like White-Ra said, foreigners are lazy compared to Koreans. White-Ra is always right. | ||
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Schenkee
Scotland322 Posts
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Qaatar
1409 Posts
Stephano beat a guy in the Up/downs, and a bunch of Code B Koreans. STC is talented, yes, but still unrefined and inconsistent. The others are just unproven besides some PvP's, and one is teamless. The online results have been talked to death, so I won't get into them. Either way, saying Stephano is Code S level really isn't saying much at all, since "Code S level" essentially encompasses the top 40-50 players in the world, considering the fact that there ARE some Code A and Code B players who are "Code S level." Consequently, saying Stephano is one of he top 40 or 50 players in the world isn't much of a stretch at all. Thus, no change in opinion. One player does not equate to the entire scene. | ||
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Treva
United States533 Posts
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turamn
United States1374 Posts
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Cloud9157
United States2968 Posts
Stephano has shown what a monster he can be, but he needs a true test: MVP, DRG, Nestea, Polt, and the rest of Code S that have not played him. | ||
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HEROwithNOlegacy
United States850 Posts
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Peetee
United States9 Posts
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Keone
United States812 Posts
On October 13 2011 00:11 Liquid`Tyler wrote: Not enough said. Why do these populations matter? I think the relevant populations are the number of SC2 players practicing 8+ hours a day (already pro) and the number of SC2 players practicing 20+ hours a week and trying their best to get as good as they can. It doesn't matter how many people in a country aren't playing SC2 or how many people are playing SC2 casually or how many "pro" SC2 players are half-assing it. What matters is the number of people trying to be pro and actually putting in the effort. Korea has the highest number for any country, and I think they still have the highest number when counting the entire rest of the world as one country. Tyler, this time I'll have to completely disagree with you. This might have been the case with SCBW, but there are NOWHERE as many Koreans who are trying to go Pro SC2 as there are in the REST of the world. SC2 has been a hit in so many countries, in Europe, China, North America... I'm venturing to say that the number of people trying to go "pro" in China alone is probably higher than the number of people trying to "pro" in Korea. This is probably because lots of Koreans are still interested in BW > SC2, although a shift in focus is happening. In summary, there is absolutely 0% chance that there are more Koreans trying to go "pro" than the entire rest of the world, and I don't even think the number even approaches the total of the other countries in Asia. You've got to remember, SC2 is just one of HUNDREDS of popular games in Korea. Koreans make so many games that are high-quality that actually are the most popular in PC-bangs. When I recently visited Korea, SC2 wasn't even readily available in many PC-bangs, and EVERYONE was playing something else. Back in the SCBW days, EVERYONE was playing SCBW. Things have changed. | ||
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TheTurk
United States732 Posts
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PhoenixDark
United States286 Posts
If Idra practices and is in a decent mental state, he can reach impressive heights as well. Guys like Huk and Dimaga have shown they can compete with Koreans as well. They're solid players. But the scene needs more before it can challenge Korea. | ||
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HereBeDragons
1429 Posts
On October 13 2011 00:11 Liquid`Tyler wrote: Not enough said. Why do these populations matter? I think the relevant populations are the number of SC2 players practicing 8+ hours a day (already pro) and the number of SC2 players practicing 20+ hours a week and trying their best to get as good as they can. It doesn't matter how many people in a country aren't playing SC2 or how many people are playing SC2 casually or how many "pro" SC2 players are half-assing it. What matters is the number of people trying to be pro and actually putting in the effort. Korea has the highest number for any country, and I think they still have the highest number when counting the entire rest of the world as one country. You have MLG in a few days - get off the forums and continue your practice!!!! <3 | ||
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iruel
Canada75 Posts
On October 13 2011 00:11 Liquid`Tyler wrote: Not enough said. Why do these populations matter? I think the relevant populations are the number of SC2 players practicing 8+ hours a day (already pro) and the number of SC2 players practicing 20+ hours a week and trying their best to get as good as they can. It doesn't matter how many people in a country aren't playing SC2 or how many people are playing SC2 casually or how many "pro" SC2 players are half-assing it. What matters is the number of people trying to be pro and actually putting in the effort. Korea has the highest number for any country, and I think they still have the highest number when counting the entire rest of the world as one country. It's just like the NHL and Canadians. Canada has a similar population to that of California, yet we produce a greater number of top tier hockey players, this is because more Canadians love hockey. | ||
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Slangen
Sweden1166 Posts
(guess QXC and Fenix did alright too | ||
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Rebs
Pakistan10726 Posts
On October 13 2011 05:44 Slangen wrote: Thorzain taking three games in a row in GSTL was amazing for me. (guess QXC and Fenix did alright too Playing individual leagues is a completely different dynamic. As for IPL 3 Stephano has been on a tear and frankly his games against Lucky were all BO wins where he basically just mindfucked the hell out of lucky who had no idea what was going on. As for his v T I feel he understands the matchup fanastically and his control and tempo during the game screams talent, but he had the advantage of being rather unkown/underestimated (amongst koreans). I find it hard for him to repeat the fight with a cross hair on his back. Something every korean deals with every single game they play when they go to foreign tournaments, atleast the regular ones. | ||
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skatbone
United States1005 Posts
On October 13 2011 06:13 Rebs wrote: Playing individual leagues is a completely different dynamic. As for IPL 3 Stephano has been on a tear and frankly his games against Lucky were all BO wins where he basically just mindfucked the hell out of lucky who had no idea what was going on. As for his v T I feel he understands the matchup fanastically and his control and tempo during the game screams talent, but he had the advantage of being rather unkown/underestimated (amongst koreans). I find it hard for him to repeat the fight with a cross hair on his back. Something every korean deals with every single game they play when they go to foreign tournaments, atleast the regular ones. I'm confused...how is a "BO win" the same as mindfucking "the hell out of" your opponent? A BO win is a victory that didn't have anything to do with mindfucking at all...a victory where you just happened to use a BO that blind-countered (hence, no mindfucking) another BO. | ||
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Rebs
Pakistan10726 Posts
Either way theres really no point in nitpicking what a BO win is I feel like I got my point across. | ||
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Ribbon
United States5278 Posts
Top Foreigners Mid Koreans Mid Foreigners | ||
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Djagulingu
Germany3605 Posts
On October 13 2011 00:11 Liquid`Tyler wrote: Not enough said. Why do these populations matter? I think the relevant populations are the number of SC2 players practicing 8+ hours a day (already pro) and the number of SC2 players practicing 20+ hours a week and trying their best to get as good as they can. It doesn't matter how many people in a country aren't playing SC2 or how many people are playing SC2 casually or how many "pro" SC2 players are half-assing it. What matters is the number of people trying to be pro and actually putting in the effort. Korea has the highest number for any country, and I think they still have the highest number when counting the entire rest of the world as one country. Exactly, that's what I was trying to tell (but, well... sometimes my writing skills go down to 5% of the original value). A country with 40 million population may have higher amount of pro gamers and skill than rest of the world. Back to the skill gap, is not clearly as large as in BW, where top foreigners could easily get dismantled by unknown b-teamers, but it's not any different from before since I've been following SC2. Foreigners were always in it, but a serious competition between foreigners and koreans has never happened. For each tournament that is won by a foreigner, something like 5 tournaments has been won by Koreans. | ||
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asdfOu
United States2089 Posts
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WArped
United Kingdom4845 Posts
On October 13 2011 07:08 Ribbon wrote: Top Koreans Top Foreigners Mid Koreans Mid Foreigners Yes, this is pretty much the gist of it. Although we are seeing a few more foreigners improving and breaking through that Mid level skill gap, namely IdrA, Ret, Stephano, MaNa and SeleCT have proven they can beat the Mid level Koreans. ThorZain, NaNiwa and HuK are pretty much at the top of the foreign scene and have been for a while. Top Koreans are still dominating though, but I would say there is moderate change in my viewpoint. | ||
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Insomni7
667 Posts
the BEST foreigners have a good shot against mid-level Koreans, and they still have almost no chance against the BEST Koreans I don't fully agree with this. The more you look the more you find games of the best of the best Koreans falling to foreigners, or even playing very even looking series with foreigners. A short list GSL World Championship -sen vs. Marineking -TT1 vs. nada -MC vs. Whitera -Dimaga vs. July -Dimaga vs. MVP -Dimaga vs. Nestea (first nestea zvz loss i believe and it was bo3 too) TSL 3 -Goody vs. Nestea -Adelscott vs. MVP -Qxc vs. Genious -Thorzain vs. fruitdealer -thorzain vs. MC -Kaz vs. Nada Also one of my favorite series and one of the most evenly matched series i can remember is Thorzain vs. DRG (dreamhack valencia). Though thorzain didn't win, he played with DRG stride for stride throughout the series and looked evenly matched with DRG, a korean zerg who had looked practically invincible against terran in korea. You will also notice many of the players on this list aren't even huge names. Players like adelscott, TT1, qxc, who are certainly good but who we don't think of as the very best around. this shows by what a thin margin Koreans surpass foreigners and how easy it is for a korean to have a bad day and a high level foreigner to have a good day and an upset to result. | ||
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blizzind
United States642 Posts
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theMiNUS
United States333 Posts
On October 13 2011 11:09 blizzind wrote: i don't see an elite korean terran losing a bo7 to a foreigner ever. foreigners can definitely beat the weaker korean players though. maybe we'll see something happen at blizzcon since nestea and mvp are going. There is no doubt that MVP and Nestea are the best of the best of Korea... I agree that since they're both going to blizzcon, we'll see how the rest of the world can compare.... (although it can be argued that the best of the best of the foreigners will not all be there) | ||
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DreamChaser
1649 Posts
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icarly
United States400 Posts
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reneg
United States859 Posts
as a whole skill base, i feel like KR is stronger than the whole foreign scene, but the skill gap at the top is a lot smaller. Here's hoping it stays that way | ||
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laguu
Finland278 Posts
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Azarkon
United States21060 Posts
If "BEST Koreans" strictly mean MVP and Nestea, then it gets a bit more complicated. MVP has barely competed outside of Korea, and Nestea almost not at all. If Dimaga vs. Nestea isn't a legitimate result because it's ZvZ or too early or whatever, then I don't think anything can really be said about BEST Koreans vs. BEST foreigners. What I do know, however, is that Ret 2-1'd Alive, a Code S player, in IPL 3, and that Stephano beat two Code A players and an ex-Code S player. Code S isn't what you normally think of as "mid-tier," and with people telling us all the time that Code A is just as competitive as Code S, well, I don't think it's fair to keep calling them "mid-tier" unless you are willing to define "BEST Koreans" so exclusively as to exclude the vast majority of GSL contestants. To this end, I think the gap is definitely much, much narrower than in BW, when the best foreigners were having a hard time beating B teamers, much less A teamers, who still weren't the best of the best, but this isn't much of a change as it's been true since the start of SC 2. What it does show, however, is that foreigners aren't "falling further and further behind," as people started talking about a while ago. SC 2 isn't looking to become BW, at least not yet, and so there's plenty to look forward to for the foreigner's scene. | ||
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papaz
Sweden4149 Posts
Stephano is exactly where Thorzain was. Just wait until the korean scene gets the replays and analyzes them and then Stephano won't be seen as the savior anymore but another good foreigner. RIght now he is on the "unknown" foreigner bandwagon and can probably take down a korean top player or two. | ||
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justinpal
United States3810 Posts
Edit: you know besides HuK/others qualifying way back when . | ||
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Art_of_Kill
Zaire1232 Posts
On October 11 2011 14:44 jalstar wrote: Not particularly, the top foreigners like Thorzain, Huk, Idra, Stephano, have always been able to beat mid-tier Koreans. Thorzain over MC remains the biggest foreigner win, with maybe Huk over Nada in second. ahaa?! and dimaga raping nestea and mvp is nothing? zero changes, europeans elite could always beat any korean and will always be able | ||
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LXR
357 Posts
On October 11 2011 14:44 jalstar wrote: Not particularly, the top foreigners like Thorzain, Huk, Idra, Stephano, have always been able to beat mid-tier Koreans. Thorzain over MC remains the biggest foreigner win, with maybe Huk over Nada in second. what about dimaga > nestea? that doesn't count? You could say that Nestea wasn't trying in the match... but you could also say that dimaga used magic.... | ||
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URvis
New Zealand57 Posts
What I really wonder however... is how this poll adds up to 110% of total votes.... | ||
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Count9
China10928 Posts
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Zeroxk
Norway1244 Posts
On October 13 2011 09:45 Insomni7 wrote: I agree with most of the posts here. I don't think anyone can say that top koreans arent the best around but we have seen how even they are only a little bit above players like huk, thorzain, stephano, sen ect. I don't fully agree with this. The more you look the more you find games of the best of the best Koreans falling to foreigners, or even playing very even looking series with foreigners. A short list GSL World Championship -sen vs. Marineking -TT1 vs. nada -MC vs. Whitera -Dimaga vs. July -Dimaga vs. MVP -Dimaga vs. Nestea (first nestea zvz loss i believe and it was bo3 too) TSL 3 -Goody vs. Nestea -Adelscott vs. MVP -Qxc vs. Genious -Thorzain vs. fruitdealer -thorzain vs. MC -Kaz vs. Nada Also one of my favorite series and one of the most evenly matched series i can remember is Thorzain vs. DRG (dreamhack valencia). Though thorzain didn't win, he played with DRG stride for stride throughout the series and looked evenly matched with DRG, a korean zerg who had looked practically invincible against terran in korea. You will also notice many of the players on this list aren't even huge names. Players like adelscott, TT1, qxc, who are certainly good but who we don't think of as the very best around. this shows by what a thin margin Koreans surpass foreigners and how easy it is for a korean to have a bad day and a high level foreigner to have a good day and an upset to result. Showmatch Showmatch Showmatch Showmatch Showmatch Awesome Online Online Online Yes(but Fruitdealer was no longer a top Korean, Thorzain is still really good though) Yes(Best series ever imo) Online The WC team USA vs Korea was essentially a showmatch, in the real tourney MKP met sen again in ro16 and won decisively. In fact the only foreigner to get out of ro16 in WC was Dimaga and TT1(only because he fought Moonglade in ro16) Thanks to the wonders of lag people don't really count online results, Destiny beat Bomber and Ace in the Geforce pro/am tourney for example. A "legit" win is usually considered to be in a LAN setting | ||
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ChewbroCColi
Denmark108 Posts
On October 11 2011 14:43 Waxangel wrote: Hmm, considering that I always thought the BEST foreigners have a good shot against mid-level Koreans, and they still have almost no chance against the BEST Koreans, I don't think much has changed for me. Look at me, replying to my own poll o/ This. (: | ||
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VTXShiva
Romania7 Posts
I'm fairly confident that if, for example, kiwikaki had won against stephano, we wouldn't have seen a foreigner take the first place. Imo the skill-gap is much smaller than most people think. That being said i do agree that koreans are still the best at the game right now. But there's more to winning a tournament than just "beating opponents of a certain rank". | ||
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AnnoyingNoob
Norway18 Posts
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Rylaji
Sweden580 Posts
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labbe
Sweden1456 Posts
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RawDogginRandoms
United States8 Posts
I mean, IPL3 results... | ||
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icarly
United States400 Posts
On October 13 2011 16:54 LXR wrote: what about dimaga > nestea? that doesn't count? You could say that Nestea wasn't trying in the match... but you could also say that dimaga used magic.... non tvt mirrors will always be subject to coinflips and the inferior player having a shot at winning. | ||
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ElemUnit
United States38 Posts
It lets me know that there are a few new(?) foreigners that are starting to rise up in the ranks, and are able to beat koreans(I've never paid any attention to stephano until IPL 3, and even then, i'm still skeptical about him) every now and then. Now whether they're able to beat them or go toe to toe with them on a consistant basis, is when i'll start to really think that us foreigners have increased in skill to get to the top ranks. | ||
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LowChucky
United Kingdom243 Posts
Nerchio ZvZ Dimaga ZvZ Mana PvT | ||
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ticktack
United Arab Emirates874 Posts
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Zeddicus
United States239 Posts
On October 14 2011 01:22 ticktack wrote: Nothing really changed for me. the best koreans really are the best in the whole world. This seems to be the most common type of comment in this poll so far. "Best koreans are still best" and "Top foreigners have always been able to beat Koreans" etc... That's not what the poll said though: Have the results of IPL3 and IEM Guangzhou changed your opinion on the Korea-International skill gap? Best Koreans are still the best, but that's not where the skill gap is. My opinion of the skill gap has moderately changed. I understand that nobody's going to be beating MVP or Nestea regularly anytime soon, but I think we see Foreigners are getting better, closing the skill gap. | ||
Poopi
France12839 Posts
On October 13 2011 21:05 AnnoyingNoob wrote: People saying the best foreigners can't win vs the best Koreans is just wrong IMO. Two tournaments in a row, IEM and IPL, both won by foreigners. I see Koreans lose a lot, though they win more than 50 % of matches (obviously). They are not wrong you just don't understand what best koreans means ^^'. IMMvp, IMNesTea, ST.Bomber, TSL.Polt, MarineKingPrime, SlayerS_GanZi, IMLosirA, MMA etc. It depends of their form and so on who are the current best koreans currently so it's a little bit hard to know but still. IEM which korean was here lol? PuMa who is code B maybe? Can't remember if they were others but pretty sure there wasn't top koreans. IPL there was some very good koreans and they failed early against koreans for the most part (MC, MMA etc), most of the koreans that were trashed by Stephano are good code B / code A but it's just that Stephano has an astounding talent thus the fact that he is training in the foreign scene doesn't prevent him from having success against koreans :D. What I mean is that for most of the foreigners, they can't have success against koreans if they don't train/have trained there. The gap is not THAT huge depending on the foreign player. Anyways the results of IPL didn't made me think that the gap has changed, just that Stephano has a fucking champion mental state, and I wasn't able to see the finals but how he overcame the game 2 against KiWikaki and game 1 against Inori showed me that. | ||
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Djagulingu
Germany3605 Posts
On October 14 2011 00:20 icarly wrote: non tvt mirrors will always be subject to coinflips and the inferior player having a shot at winning. What? So Nestea's wins at every single god damn motherfucking ZvZ except the ones against Dimaga are subject to coinflips? Hell no. | ||
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Swiftly
Iceland160 Posts
not really pvp was so much build order loss | ||
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ZeroSix
England54 Posts
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vitruvia
Canada235 Posts
these 2 weeks has moderately changed my opinion of korean dominance. | ||
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CScythe
Canada810 Posts
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MooLen
Germany501 Posts
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Danglars
United States12133 Posts
Turns out I was wrong. So moderately changed, albeit in the week following the two listed. | ||
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drumsetjunky
United States136 Posts
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JulsFoF
49 Posts
On October 11 2011 14:43 Waxangel wrote: Hmm, considering that I always thought the BEST foreigners have a good shot against mid-level Koreans, and they still have almost no chance against the BEST Koreans, I don't think much has changed for me. same here | ||
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Cambam
United States360 Posts
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jinorazi
Korea (South)4948 Posts
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SupLilSon
Malaysia4123 Posts
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VTXShiva
Romania7 Posts
On October 14 2011 08:08 SupLilSon wrote: Until I see MVP or NesTea fall to a foreigner in a LAN competition or we see a foreigner (outside of IdrA) make a real showing in GSL, nothing about my opinion will change. Stephano got lucky(no pun intended) and didn't even play any of the top koreans invites at IEM. Nothing new was revealed about the KR-World skill gap. this kind of reasoning is exactly why i think people are biased. You attribute all of stephano's win to luck? "Luck" will always be on the side of the winner if we break it down. just because he didn't play who you wanted him to play doesn't mean he's no good or not as good. It just means the brackets ended up differently. it will ALWAYS happen. if you try to match-up 1european with 1 korean every single time in a,say Ro32 by the time you hit ro4 you'll notice at least once a korean eliminated a korean in ro16 or Ro8 and at least once a foreigner did the same. There really isn't a perfect way to gauge someone's skill. It's mainly why i really like the pool plays. it shows what people can do against each other. Maybe one's style doesn't work against Idra, but it does charms against say Ret or Lucky. At the same time pool plays are a perfect example why i think someone's skill isn't entirely related to the spot you hit. Just because X didn't reach Ro8 doesn't mean he wasn't good. it just means his last match-up wasn't what he needed to advance. | ||
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StatikKhaos
United States214 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + so basically this poll is almost meaningless | ||
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SupLilSon
Malaysia4123 Posts
On October 14 2011 08:32 VTXShiva wrote: this kind of reasoning is exactly why i think people are biased. You attribute all of stephano's win to luck? "Luck" will always be on the side of the winner if we break it down. just because he didn't play who you wanted him to play doesn't mean he's no good or not as good. It just means the brackets ended up differently. it will ALWAYS happen. if you try to match-up 1european with 1 korean every single time in a,say Ro32 by the time you hit ro4 you'll notice at least once a korean eliminated a korean in ro16 or Ro8 and at least once a foreigner did the same. There really isn't a perfect way to gauge someone's skill. It's mainly why i really like the pool plays. it shows what people can do against each other. Maybe one's style doesn't work against Idra, but it does charms against say Ret or Lucky. At the same time pool plays are a perfect example why i think someone's skill isn't entirely related to the spot you hit. Just because X didn't reach Ro8 doesn't mean he wasn't good. it just means his last match-up wasn't what he needed to advance. It's not biased... how in the world is it biased? Lucky and TheSTC are not top level Koreans, not by a pretty long shot. That is an unbiased FACT. Neither of them are in Code S. That is a FACT. If Stephano had faced MMA in the finals instead of Lucky and had shown the same amount of skill and ease I would have no problem saying yea, the skill gap is closing... but no... Suppose the United States Olympic Football (soccer for americans) team played and beat a mid tier European team. Would have justify US> EU in football or even US = EU? HELL NO. All I am doing is looking at the situation realistically. In any sport, when rating skill you have to take into account the competition level. | ||
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thane
United States407 Posts
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oxxo
988 Posts
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windsupernova
Mexico5280 Posts
IEM was just...weird. I still think the gap is there(and really foreigners let it grow too much) but its not as big as it was in BW. Until I see a foreigner doing well in Korea(I love Huk, but really he is just hanging in there in Code S. When FD and other korean players were doing the same we called them bad) I will change my mind about the skill gap | ||
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doner0
United States233 Posts
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KimJongChill
United States6429 Posts
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Nadarath
98 Posts
It would be much more fun when u had 15+ players that could take win in each tournament. I don't mind having like 1 player who is considered best - but still would be perfect if he wasn't out of reach of others. ps. Please don't forget every competition involves a bit of luck. I think i agree with opinion that every player needs bit luck in brackets. So dont start this whole crap about someone not wining legit because he got __lucky__ in brackets... | ||
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VTXShiva
Romania7 Posts
On October 14 2011 09:06 SupLilSon wrote: It's not biased... how in the world is it biased? Lucky and TheSTC are not top level Koreans, not by a pretty long shot. That is an unbiased FACT. Neither of them are in Code S. That is a FACT. If Stephano had faced MMA in the finals instead of Lucky and had shown the same amount of skill and ease I would have no problem saying yea, the skill gap is closing... but no... Suppose the United States Olympic Football (soccer for americans) team played and beat a mid tier European team. Would have justify US> EU in football or even US = EU? HELL NO. All I am doing is looking at the situation realistically. In any sport, when rating skill you have to take into account the competition level. So just because a person didn't take a test to prove he can pass it, he automatically can't do it? That's some interesting logic. GSL alltogether is a korean thing. While some foreigners are working towards it, it is not the be all end all of starcraft competitive gaming. Many players don't strive for that. It's somewhat flawed to say GSL defines the competitive gaming worldwide. You're argumentation is besides the point. footbal to begin with is a team play. As long as half the group performs sub-par the whole group ends up performing sub-par no matter how good one individual is. You could argue that applies to starcraft.but the results are still individual. Did i at any point say koreans are still not the best? No, i didn't. Check out what i wrote one more time. Lucky beat Violet (now A),Boxer(A),Ryung(S) ,Ret and MMA(S) to get to the finals. That alone tells you he's very good. Heck. only one more win against S and lucky would've been S himself. Stephano also went through Violet(now A), then Inori, who incidentally beat MC(now A) and Huk(S), Stc and finally lucky(A). In pool play, Stephano lost against aLive(S) but won against Huk(S). Not to mention Lucky went 8-0 matchups, coming from open bracket. If you look at the whole picture suddenly his performance isn't as terrible as you make it seem. I'm not going to start breaking down each players individual performance that weekend or the match-ups themselves. They are how they are and is not a factor you can rule out. | ||
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Fatze
Germany1342 Posts
On October 11 2011 14:44 endy wrote: Only a handful of foreigners can defeat Koreans, and not even consistently. Nothing changed. Totally agree | ||
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Vorenius
Denmark1979 Posts
Yeah, Idra beating Puma is amazing, but he even admitted that Puma is a far better player than him. Puma beat him 70-80% of the time when they were practising together. Of course Idra won when it mattered so it doesn't take anything away from him, but it certainly underlines the fact that koreans are way ahead of foreigners in general. Puma isn't even a top level korean. He hasn't been able to qualify for Code A yet. Now, the very very top level foreigners can compete with your average Code A/S player. Idra and HuK has had no problem getting into the GSL the seasons they have been playing and Jinro had back-to-back Ro4 showings. But these are the MVPs and NesTeas of the foreigners community, and they are still no where near the korean counterparts. Top foreigners beating average koreans changes nothing. | ||
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iamthedave
England2814 Posts
On October 14 2011 18:52 VTXShiva wrote: So just because a person didn't take a test to prove he can pass it, he automatically can't do it? That's some interesting logic. GSL alltogether is a korean thing. While some foreigners are working towards it, it is not the be all end all of starcraft competitive gaming. Many players don't strive for that. It's somewhat flawed to say GSL defines the competitive gaming worldwide. You're argumentation is besides the point. footbal to begin with is a team play. As long as half the group performs sub-par the whole group ends up performing sub-par no matter how good one individual is. You could argue that applies to starcraft.but the results are still individual. Did i at any point say koreans are still not the best? No, i didn't. Check out what i wrote one more time. Lucky beat Violet (now A),Boxer(A),Ryung(S) ,Ret and MMA(S) to get to the finals. That alone tells you he's very good. Heck. only one more win against S and lucky would've been S himself. Stephano also went through Violet(now A), then Inori, who incidentally beat MC(now A) and Huk(S), Stc and finally lucky(A). In pool play, Stephano lost against aLive(S) but won against Huk(S). Not to mention Lucky went 8-0 matchups, coming from open bracket. If you look at the whole picture suddenly his performance isn't as terrible as you make it seem. I'm not going to start breaking down each players individual performance that weekend or the match-ups themselves. They are how they are and is not a factor you can rule out. The GSL is the litmus test. it's the most difficult tournament in the world where all the best players are. When the best players from GSL go to foreign tournaments, they curbstomp everyone they run into. MVP in MLG wasn't even competitive until he ran into his countrymen. Basically, more of the worse Koreans are going to tourneys so more foreigners are getting wins, but the wins which truly matter aren't happening. | ||
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Sqalevon
Netherlands523 Posts
That is because I never thought of the skill gap as being that big. | ||
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SoniC_eu
Denmark1008 Posts
On October 14 2011 20:40 iamthedave wrote: The GSL is the litmus test. it's the most difficult tournament in the world where all the best players are. When the best players from GSL go to foreign tournaments, they curbstomp everyone they run into. MVP in MLG wasn't even competitive until he ran into his countrymen. Basically, more of the worse Koreans are going to tourneys so more foreigners are getting wins, but the wins which truly matter aren't happening. Stephano beat MMA (Code S Ro4) in qualifying for the IPL3, And after seeing Lucky play, I was like shocked how amazing he played. The slayers terrans looked like "wtf do we do now" lol! Look fwd to see more play from him :D | ||
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bana
Germany22 Posts
On October 14 2011 03:37 Djagulingu wrote: What? So Nestea's wins at every single god damn motherfucking ZvZ except the ones against Dimaga are subject to coinflips? Hell no. Nestea and Dimaga made 4 matches during dimagas stay in Korea (one was showmatch of them) 2 of them won by Nestea in straight up normal ZvZs. The first dimaga won, was a 7 pool drone all-in against a hatch first, which is a 100% build order win. Even a Silver/Bronze player would win in this case against a grandmaster player. The second game dimaga won, was pretty build order win from diamaga too. Dimaga played EXTREME greedy - went for 16 hatch, 16 gas, 16 pool and late roach tech and had economic lead. Such builds are quite risky, if the opponent goes for baneling aggression or early pools. So I would say, that Dimaga only beat Nestea in one "normal" ZvZ. | ||
Chill
Calgary25980 Posts
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AgentChaos
United Kingdom4569 Posts
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CaptainSlow
Malaysia164 Posts
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SpeCtor
233 Posts
Idra beat MC convincingly at MLG (few MLGs back) | ||
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metbull
United States404 Posts
not every time, but the vast majority of the time. skill = natural talent + practice time + quality of opponent So gap in skill is not shifting, in my opinion, due to 2 weeks of tournaments. IPL3: 1. foreigner 2. korean 3. korean 4. korean IEM Guangzhou 1. foreigner 2. foreigner 3. korean 4. foreigner MLG Anaheim 1. korean 2. korean 3. korean 4. korean 5. korean 6. korean 7. foreigner MLG Columbus 1. korean 2. korean 3. korean 4. foreigner NASL 1. korean 2. korean 3. korean 4. korean sure looks like a whole lot of koreans there As Ace said after 2010 IEM World Championships, "Koreans own white dudes." | ||
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SupLilSon
Malaysia4123 Posts
On October 14 2011 18:52 VTXShiva wrote: So just because a person didn't take a test to prove he can pass it, he automatically can't do it? That's some interesting logic. GSL alltogether is a korean thing. While some foreigners are working towards it, it is not the be all end all of starcraft competitive gaming. Many players don't strive for that. It's somewhat flawed to say GSL defines the competitive gaming worldwide. You're argumentation is besides the point. footbal to begin with is a team play. As long as half the group performs sub-par the whole group ends up performing sub-par no matter how good one individual is. You could argue that applies to starcraft.but the results are still individual. Did i at any point say koreans are still not the best? No, i didn't. Check out what i wrote one more time. Lucky beat Violet (now A),Boxer(A),Ryung(S) ,Ret and MMA(S) to get to the finals. That alone tells you he's very good. Heck. only one more win against S and lucky would've been S himself. Stephano also went through Violet(now A), then Inori, who incidentally beat MC(now A) and Huk(S), Stc and finally lucky(A). In pool play, Stephano lost against aLive(S) but won against Huk(S). Not to mention Lucky went 8-0 matchups, coming from open bracket. If you look at the whole picture suddenly his performance isn't as terrible as you make it seem. I'm not going to start breaking down each players individual performance that weekend or the match-ups themselves. They are how they are and is not a factor you can rule out. Honestly, It seems like my post went right over your head... This poll is all about people opinions and I really don't feel like I should try to hammer my point any harder. Your logic is flawed, not mine. It really seems like you misread/misinterpreted every point I make, or you are just arguing for the sake of arguing. | ||
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r0b0t
United States6 Posts
On October 11 2011 14:56 ragealot wrote: Anyone who watched last season's Code A can see the top foreigners are capable of beating Koreans, but it's more a question of can they compete with the best of Code S, NesTea/MVP/Bomber excluded. I'd say right now only about four or five are capable so nothing's changed. while I can agree that the foreigner secene is catching up, they are still a long way from being equal to Korea. I could go into more detail explaing my reasons for saying that. but I am on my phone and do not feel like typing anymore. | ||
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SupLilSon
Malaysia4123 Posts
On October 15 2011 03:12 r0b0t wrote: while I can agree that the foreigner secene is catching up, they are still a long way from being equal to Korea. I could go into more detail explaing my reasons for saying that. but I am on my phone and do not feel like typing anymore. Honestly, I don't think there is a single foreigner that could go againt MVP or NesTea in a series. Take games off them? Sure. Win in a series format? Not a chance. Also.. Remember that the best of the Koreans, were not even the top of koreans in SC1... What if FlaSh or JD or pretty much any SC1 pro moved over... the Koreans are still miles ahead even while top korean gaming talent is focused on an entirely different game. | ||
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clanbrown
United States9 Posts
koreans practice more so they understand more...thats it. | ||
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Chill
Calgary25980 Posts
On October 15 2011 05:20 clanbrown wrote: there is no skill gap. skill is an illusion, its all about practice and understanding the game. koreans practice more so they understand more...thats it. Do you understand what skill means? | ||
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verne
United States43 Posts
why bother asking if my opinion has changed if you dont know my original opinion?? this poll is useless | ||
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Scrutinizer
170 Posts
Anyone who does still tries to underestimate Stephano is either dumb(sorry) or doesnt have a clue about Starcraft in general and cant understand what he watches. He is the number 2 zerg in the world right now (with a greater potential than the number 1), and I have been saying how good he is since the first game of him that I have watched. It is not talking about results people or what has been accomplished or not, it is about understanding what one sees: DONT YOU "SEE" THE HUGE DIFFERENCE IN THE PLAY OF THE PLAYER HIMSELF? + Show Spoiler + I am not french or tunisian | ||
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EmilA
Denmark4618 Posts
IT'S ALL AN ILLUSION WE'RE ALL FUCKING HIGH | ||
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ooni
Australia1498 Posts
On October 15 2011 01:57 metbull wrote: anyone can win anytime. but the guy who practices more against the highest quality opponents is going to win the majority of the time. not every time, but the vast majority of the time. skill = natural talent + practice time + quality of opponent So gap in skill is not shifting, in my opinion, due to 2 weeks of tournaments. IPL3: 1. foreigner 2. korean 3. korean 4. korean IEM Guangzhou 1. foreigner 2. foreigner 3. korean 4. foreigner MLG Anaheim 1. korean 2. korean 3. korean 4. korean 5. korean 6. korean 7. foreigner MLG Columbus 1. korean 2. korean 3. korean 4. foreigner NASL 1. korean 2. korean 3. korean 4. korean sure looks like a whole lot of koreans there As Ace said after 2010 IEM World Championships, "Koreans own white dudes." Actually Moon said it, and it was a parody of Carmac's quote "Koreans own white dudes" in WC3 (which Carmac received a lot of criticism for). I think the skill gap was that big to begin with. If you look at GSL, you can see the skill gap between the best Koreans and the avg Code S Koreans, I think it's not a gap that cannot be overcome. Well unless some foreign pros continue to practice like 2-3hrs a day... | ||
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AusBox
Australia214 Posts
Anyway, we have seen the absolute best of the foreigners beat the average Koreans. Wait until we see a Flash level of skill to come into SC2. Whoever that person is, they'll be Korean. | ||
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drumsetjunky
United States136 Posts
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Goshdarnit
United States540 Posts
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The KY
United Kingdom6252 Posts
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Megaliskuu
United States5123 Posts
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Noocta
France12578 Posts
Yeah, perhaps foreigner can beat these 2 ( even if Dimaga do it once against each ) but every other koreans, even the code S one ? I would not put my bet on them everytime. | ||
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WeaVerPrime
34 Posts
now i know that MMA (code S finalist now!) is a mediocre koreans... LOL ^^ | ||
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TicketoHELL
Canada368 Posts
On October 16 2011 04:18 WeaVerPrime wrote: i'm surprised to read phrase like "BEST foreigners have a good shot against mid-level Koreans "... now i know that MMA (code S finalist now!) is a mediocre koreans... LOL ^^ i dont remember MMA losing to foreigners...if youre talking about ipl he lost to lucky another korean | ||
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Fubi
2228 Posts
That is just like Yao Ming being good at basketball, but you don't see people suddenly going "yay Asians are catching up to the West in their basketball skills" | ||
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backtoback
Canada1276 Posts
On October 15 2011 05:20 clanbrown wrote: there is no skill gap. skill is an illusion, its all about practice and understanding the game. koreans practice more so they understand more...thats it. except skill comes from practicing..... therefore your statement has a contradiction | ||
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Crownlol
United States3726 Posts
People need to realize that progamers are progamers, and the simple fact is this: The more exposure foreigners have to Korean gameplay, the smaller and smaller the gap will get. This is just an undeniable truth of competitive communities. I'm sure the NesTea and MVP groupies will scoff until the day a foreigner is elected president of Korea, but foreigners are looking great in tourneys. I'd love to see a close WCG at some point- and we're closer to that than ever. | ||
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zdfgucker
China594 Posts
Aside from that Korea has so much potential left, just think of all the BW Code A players that might switch prior to or for HotS. That's a shitload of at least MVP-level players that might enter the battlefield and leave the current top-tier players behind. Not even mentioning the BW Code S players as they are a league of their own. So for me nothing has changed. | ||
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figq
12519 Posts
On October 16 2011 07:44 TicketoHELL wrote: He lost to Stephano in the 3rd qualifier final (1-2).i dont remember MMA losing to foreigners...if youre talking about ipl he lost to lucky another korean It was online however, so people tend to dismiss the result. But from the way MMA played, he didn't play bad at all, he seemed to be playing his best, Stephano just played slightly better that match.. | ||
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Qaatar
1409 Posts
On October 16 2011 11:36 Crownlol wrote: Looks like a lot of Korea fanboys >.> People need to realize that progamers are progamers, and the simple fact is this: The more exposure foreigners have to Korean gameplay, the smaller and smaller the gap will get. This is just an undeniable truth of competitive communities. I'm sure the NesTea and MVP groupies will scoff until the day a foreigner is elected president of Korea, but foreigners are looking great in tourneys. I'd love to see a close WCG at some point- and we're closer to that than ever. Or perhaps, in four years when all the expansions have come out, and perhaps the skill cap has been raised so that 3 hours of practices no longer beats 8 hours, will we actually see "undeniable truth" in a competitive community. Once more and more talented Koreans start playing this game in its finished state, the larger the gap will get. See, I can dish out pointless speculation too. -_- | ||
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hugman
Sweden4644 Posts
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SupLilSon
Malaysia4123 Posts
On October 16 2011 01:55 The KY wrote: If we're talking the very best Koreans, even the other Koreans have serious trouble beating them. I mean, are we calling everyone under MVP and Nestea 'mid-tier'? You do realize that Nestea was pretty mid tier in BW... imagine if the creme of the crop SC1 pros switched over to SC2. I don't mean players like BoxeR who are way past their prime, I mean current height of their career players. SC2 itself closes the skill gap somewhat since it is so much less mechanically demanding but seriously, foreigners can't even touch NesTea right now... how do you think they would fare against JaeDong? Get real people... SC2 isn't nearly as big in KR as it is here. Koreans still own white dudes, and until foreign CULTURE changes and the negative stigma on E-Sports are lessened it will always be that way. | ||
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eoLithic
Norway221 Posts
The fact that millenium.stephano had a goon run and won a major tournament doesn`t make Koreans worse, nor does it makes foreigners better. Foreingers in general get stomped by koreans, but some foreigners occasionally has a pretty good run in tournaments with alot of koreans in it, can`t really say it justifies any conclusion as to wether the skill gap between the scenes has decreased. Also, teamliquid members also seems to be very critical of small samples, oh well do I really have to point out how small the sample that resulted in this poll was? Kind of a shit poll in my opinion, we can allready see that things are back to normal over at MLG and IEM. On topic: little to no change. Reason? Koreans are simply alot better and stomps most foreigners, about it for this poll imo. | ||
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jpak
United States5045 Posts
Of course I can be wrong since I don't follow SC2 closely. That's just how I feel, though. | ||
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oneofthem
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
you don't even need to bring up flash jaedong etc. the top 20 in bw right now are made up of players at least in the same class as mvp, who is being talked about as a G_d for having A team progamer basics. yea the scene outside of korea is growing, but korea has a huge huge head start with the bw players. | ||
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whitelly
Czech Republic50 Posts
And if so,how come stephano won that tournament? He was just lucky? | ||
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