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Nobody's saying Flash's TvP is bad, just that it's much, much worse than his godly TvT and TvZ.
Yes, Flash curbstomps low-level Protoss with ease, but the ex-dragons all seem to be on equal (or even higher) footing with him.
Elo tells the tale just as well. Flash has the highest TvP Elo, but it's still much lower than his other two matchups, and some Protoss players have close to or higher PvT Elo than Flash's TvP Elo.
TvT: 2280
TvZ: 2268
TvP: 2196
No player has a ZvT or TvT score within 50 pts of Flash's score in those matchups, so he's the king of TvT and TvZ, sure.
But look here, players who have ~50 close to Flash's TvP in PvT:
Bisu (above Flash, even)
Stork (2 points away)
Jangbi
free
Kal
So yes, we're in an odd situation where Flash has the (theoretically Elo) best TvP (realistically, Fantasy is very close and it's hard to tell whose is better), and yet it's still not good enough to avoid worrying about Flash dropping games to the dragons, especially in Starleagues.
If Flash can avoid Protoss players, he should have a really good shot at winning a Starleague. If he runs into any of the ex-dragons, Flash fans have good reason to be worried. He really does need to work on his TvP if he wants to win a starleague again. The same goes for any Terran player right now, though.
And no, god no, he's not the next Firebathero. Flash TvP: 2196. FBH TvP: 1971. End of discussion.
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Meh. I'm not too worried about Flash's TvP for alot of reasons, mainly that it seems like Protoss players just adapt to his style and he's not putting his A game PvT out there. He'll fix it eventually.
I mean look at Bisu V. Flash in GOMS2 on Medusa... Flash beat Bisu on a P>>>>>>>T map (1.0) in a long macro game and then like a week later Bisu curbstomped him on the same map after simply adapting his strategy to Flash's. It's not like Flash suddenly got worse inbetween those two games, he just got out played. Flash just needs to mix it up a bit and try to be less predictable in TvP because once P's adapt to his gameplan he's put into a really bad spot.
Maps like Destination (map where he's lost to Kal, Jangbi and Bisu) only make it that much harder for Flash to win against S class PvT'ers and distort his results/form imo. It's a very unforgiving map for TvP and I think that's a pretty legitimate factor in his recent "TvP v S class protoss." One mistake and you're toast... I mean HBR can even be thrown into this discussion.
I think people tend to be a little bit too results oriented on TL. If game 3 of WCG Korea was on Athena II or something like Eye of The Storm/Katrina/Moon Glaive/Othello and Flash won a long macro game against Bisu, knocking him out of WCG (which he probably would on those kind of T>P maps... [I guess Katrina is more Flash>P though huh]) I think there would be alot less questioning of Flash's TvP.
I'm not saying there isn't a problem, just that people are probably overthinking it. It's a combination of different things and I don't think Flash has gotten any worse in TvP than he was in GSI or OSL08... he just needs to work on his style a bit.
EDIT: I MEAN FREAKING LOOK AT DESTINATION AHHHHH! Most imba TvP/PvT map in TLPD's database. (Not that that says everything but come on!)
http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/maps/balance_table.php#tblt-1004-1-5-DESC
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On November 11 2009 04:57 DreaM)XeRO wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2009 05:52 Djabanete wrote:
Flash is becoming FBH 2.0, you heard it here first! not at all. Flash's TvP is RIDICULOUSLY better than FBH's.. -___- and dont even get me started with Casy's TvP
Arg I didn't think anyone would take that remark seriously.
Flash's TvP is his Achilles' heel for the moment, but (a) it's way better than most TvP, and (b) I expect him to rework it soon and make it even better than it is already.
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On November 11 2009 08:56 Vasoline73 wrote:Meh. I'm not too worried about Flash's TvP for alot of reasons, mainly that it seems like Protoss players just adapt to his style and he's not putting his A game PvT out there. He'll fix it eventually. I mean look at Bisu V. Flash in GOMS2 on Medusa... Flash beat Bisu on a P>>>>>>>T map (1.0) in a long macro game and then like a week later Bisu curbstomped him on the same map after simply adapting his strategy to Flash's. It's not like Flash suddenly got worse inbetween those two games, he just got out played. Flash just needs to mix it up a bit and try to be less predictable in TvP because once P's adapt to his gameplan he's put into a really bad spot. Maps like Destination (map where he's lost to Kal, Jangbi and Bisu) only make it that much harder for Flash to win against S class PvT'ers and distort his results/form imo. It's a very unforgiving map for TvP and I think that's a pretty legitimate factor in his recent "TvP v S class protoss." One mistake and you're toast... I mean HBR can even be thrown into this discussion. I think people tend to be a little bit too results oriented on TL. If game 3 of WCG Korea was on Athena II or something like Eye of The Storm/Katrina/Moon Glaive/Othello and Flash won a long macro game against Bisu, knocking him out of WCG (which he probably would on those kind of T>P maps... [I guess Katrina is more Flash>P though huh]) I think there would be alot less questioning of Flash's TvP. I'm not saying there isn't a problem, just that people are probably overthinking it. It's a combination of different things and I don't think Flash has gotten any worse in TvP than he was in GSI or OSL08... he just needs to work on his style a bit. EDIT: I MEAN FREAKING LOOK AT DESTINATION AHHHHH! Most imba TvP/PvT map in TLPD's database. (Not that that says everything but come on!) http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/maps/balance_table.php#tblt-1004-1-5-DESC
wow, I never knew TLPD had a map imbalance feature.. which is pretty awesome
Although looking at it further, how does the map imbalance feature actually determine whether the map is imbalanced or not?
Does it take into account Bisu winning against Flash on that map versus Bisu winning against someone like FBH? Or are both wins counted as the same stat?
Confusing...
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It's determined by ELO I think.
Pokju beating Flash on Destination would swing the balance more P>T than Bisu beating Flash on Destination... stuff like that.
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On November 11 2009 20:01 Vasoline73 wrote:
It's determined by ELO I think.
Pokju beating Flash on Destination would swing the balance more P>T than Bisu beating Flash on Destination... stuff like that.
blashphemy
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United States10328 Posts
On November 11 2009 20:01 Vasoline73 wrote:
It's determined by ELO I think.
Pokju beating Flash on Destination would swing the balance more P>T than Bisu beating Flash on Destination... stuff like that.
LOOOL reminds me of fakesteve's "HURRR WHERE'S POKJU"
hmm I remember the days where flash was invincible TvP
guess the protoss have adapted... but will flash unveil his supersexy TvP build and pwn all of them? stay tuned!
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destination is a really really really imbalnced map for pvt though, t cant do a damm thing on it.
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On November 14 2009 05:50 4Servy wrote:
destination is a really really really imbalnced map for pvt though, t cant do a damm thing on it.
besides camp outside the bridges and take their 3rd, turret up and max out?
The bridges make a P push impossible
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Philadelphia, PA10406 Posts
On November 14 2009 06:17 DreaM)XeRO wrote:Show nested quote +On November 14 2009 05:50 4Servy wrote:
destination is a really really really imbalnced map for pvt though, t cant do a damm thing on it. besides camp outside the bridges and take their 3rd, turret up and max out? The bridges make a P push impossible
In some games, [race] can play well and defeat [other race] on [map] therefore, [previous poster] is incorrect and the balance is in fact opposite.
Duh.
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On November 14 2009 06:17 DreaM)XeRO wrote:Show nested quote +On November 14 2009 05:50 4Servy wrote:
destination is a really really really imbalnced map for pvt though, t cant do a damm thing on it. besides camp outside the bridges and take their 3rd, turret up and max out? The bridges make a P push impossible
Have fun pushing half a mile, across bridges, through the infinite flanking zones into the protoss base while he recalls your main into oblivion, and stasis's twice at the ramps to completely block your push.
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If Destination is a bad map for Terran to mass vulture/tank off two bases and try to break Protoss's third in a massive push, then Terran should play a different style. If Destination is a bad map for Terran to mass vulture/tank off three bases and try to break Protoss's face in a massive push (with a few gols and one sci vessel OMG so much unit variety), then Terran should play a different style. "I can't win by massing two units, so imba!" is pathetic.
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Destination is a bad map for terran in every which way versus protoss. Unless you've got some magical incite that the progamers have no clue on.
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On November 14 2009 06:17 DreaM)XeRO wrote:Show nested quote +On November 14 2009 05:50 4Servy wrote:
destination is a really really really imbalnced map for pvt though, t cant do a damm thing on it. besides camp outside the bridges and take their 3rd, turret up and max out? The bridges make a P push impossible
Notice how Flash picks his tank spots so as to minimize how much he stretches his Defense line, yet manages to shell the P middle expos and eventually bitch crawl to the other side of the map. It's all about positioning on Desti
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Flash is 4-6 on destination vs P, all of his losses coming from anyone mildly competent.
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Are international tournaments taken into consideration in the PR?
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On November 15 2009 18:28 Holgerius wrote:
Are international tournaments taken into consideration in the PR?
WCG should be. :p
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On November 15 2009 18:28 Holgerius wrote:
Are international tournaments taken into consideration in the PR?
WCG should be, although that might drop JD out of next month's PR since he dropped a game to a foreigner...
first Hyuk, now some foreigner... what a loser... he should have just retired when he had the chance...
+ Show Spoiler +nice win over stork though... he's won every major competition out there now.
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On November 15 2009 20:33 jello24 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2009 18:28 Holgerius wrote:
Are international tournaments taken into consideration in the PR? WCG should be, although that might drop JD out of next month's PR since he dropped a game to a foreigner...
lol like Effort/Bisu's perfect runs in IEF last month
Edit:Sarcasm detector fail, it usually doesnt work when you target JD, you should only use this kind of jokes for flash
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EPT
