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SQ Leaderboard by Region - Page 2

Forum Index > News
393 CommentsPost a Reply
Prev 1 2 3 4 5 18 19 20 Next All
jjhchsc2
Profile Joined December 2010
Korea (South)2393 Posts
October 29 2011 02:17 GMT
#21
impressive!!!
cant wait to see all the rankings and results
Lee Ssang/ Lee Shin/ Kim Jung Woo/ Kim Min Chul/Jun Tae Yang/Park Soo Ho/Lee Jung Hoon/Choi Sung Hoon/ Moon Sung Won/Park Ji Soo/ Lee Ho Joon/ Jang Min Chul/ Kim Seung Chul/SaSe/IdrA/Ret Fighting! BW4Life
monkeycid
Profile Joined May 2006
Sweden44 Posts
October 29 2011 02:20 GMT
#22
[quote]I hope you find this analysis interesting! [quote]
Oh hell yes. More stuff like this, please! While I'm not quite sure how to interpret the data, it is intriguing - especially the protoss bit.

Very well-written and argued, with some very healthy skepticism towards drawing any conclusions at this stage. AAAAAAA++++++ would read again
woot!
whatthefat
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States918 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-10-29 02:22:56
October 29 2011 02:21 GMT
#23
On October 29 2011 11:13 Imperium11 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 29 2011 10:40 whatthefat wrote:

Among the top 8 players, Protoss scored notably lower than other races. While this is an extremely small sample of players, I found this surprising. Especially since this sample included two of the best Protoss players in the world (HuK and MC). Whether this down to their particular playstyles, skill sets, or some sort of systematic SQ bias against Protoss due to the race's mechanics will require additional data from other top Protoss players to test. It certainly seems possible for Protoss players to score extremely high SQs in individual games, but the highest average SQ observed for a Protoss player to date is 89 (ToD). If no higher SQs are found once the Korean ladder is analyzed, it may be necessary to adjust the way SQ is scored at the top level.


In addition to Pokebunny's comment above about Protoss intentionally overmaking gates and banking resources, it should be noted that there is a natural buildup of resources during each warpgate cooldown, resulting in a lower SQ even were the Protoss to not overmake gates.

I also would like to point out that this measures only the spending of money, not the efficacy of that spending. As far as I understand it, a player poorly macroing and queuing up several units would receive a high SQ because their money was being spent, even if it was not being done in a productive way.

Edit: misquote

Well, let's remember that all the races score equally well on SQ for Bronze through Grandmaster (top 100). It's only at this extremely high level that I'm seeing any racial differences (and they aren't yet confirmed).

And yes, there are ways to 'game' SQ, e.g., building way too many production facilities for your income, or queuing like crazy. But even still, on average Bronze players score worse than Silver players, who score worse than Gold players, and so on. So it still seems to be a pretty good metric for assessing your spending ability. But it shouldn't be viewed in complete isolation - of course if you are doing something else terrible, like queuing all the time, you need to address that. I don't think any pro players are doing that though.

Once we have more data we can figure out whether the SQ needs to be slightly adjusted for race at the pro level - or just compared within races as Whitewing suggested.
SlayerS_BoxeR: "I always feel sorry towards Greg (Grack?) T_T"
EtohEtoh
Profile Joined May 2011
Canada669 Posts
October 29 2011 02:25 GMT
#24
kinda odd seeing Goody up there, I haven't kept up with him, but he's known for queuing the shit out of his factories right? I guess that doesn't really factor in SQ, and if he would just build more factories then his macro and relative SQ would make sense
Horse...falcon
Profile Joined December 2010
United States1851 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-10-29 02:34:22
October 29 2011 02:34 GMT
#25
Hmm I don't know if this was addressed but does the SQ rating account for those long-ass macro games where you're already maxed and there's nothing to spend your money on so you end the game at X000m, X000g?
Artosis: "From horsssse....falcon"
Reborn8u
Profile Blog Joined January 2010
United States1761 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-10-29 02:58:26
October 29 2011 02:35 GMT
#26
Protoss is of course going to have higher unspent, zergs and terrans can make 50 mineral units. So all game long a protoss player would have to wait for at least 100 before he can spend it. Not only that but because of warp cycles, protoss is always going to be stacking up minerals in between cycles. Where a zerg can constantly spend if he has larva and a terran can cue units. As a game goes on there are going to be more gates added and more accumulated from income in between warp cycles. All of this artificially inflates a protoss players average unspent resources. Especially when you look at the cost of stalkers, colossus, immortals compared to anything terran or zerg are producing in the mid game. Protoss has to let more pile up before it gets spent. On top of that most protoss upgrades and tech structures are 2x the cost of terran or zergs.

This clearly demonstrates protoss having more unspent. I think it is purely a result of the race mechanics. It could probably be factored out by subtracting a certain 10 factor of unspent minerals from protoss. If you look at enough averages I'm pretty sure you could accurately calculate what the amount subtracted should be.

Edit: My bad thought that was by race.
Here it is, it's still close but there are a lot of green dots above the rest. That could be a reflection of skill or race mechanics. You can almost see on this chart when warp finishes the toss unspent jumps. OP is obviously going to be 10x better at drawing an accurate conclusion than I. But excellent post! and thank you!

Also for consideration is that once a zerg maxes they are going to stack like crazy. So @ 200 supply the unspent really shouldn't be counted. (if it is)

[image loading]
:)
Heyoka
Profile Blog Joined March 2008
Katowice25012 Posts
October 29 2011 02:35 GMT
#27
Everything you post is amazing, great stuff

SPOTLIGHT
@RealHeyoka | ESL / DreamHack StarCraft Lead
Imperium11
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States279 Posts
October 29 2011 02:36 GMT
#28
On October 29 2011 11:21 whatthefat wrote:

Well, let's remember that all the races score equally well on SQ for Bronze through Grandmaster (top 100). It's only at this extremely high level that I'm seeing any racial differences (and they aren't yet confirmed).

And yes, there are ways to 'game' SQ, e.g., building way too many production facilities for your income, or queuing like crazy. But even still, on average Bronze players score worse than Silver players, who score worse than Gold players, and so on. So it still seems to be a pretty good metric for assessing your spending ability. But it shouldn't be viewed in complete isolation - of course if you are doing something else terrible, like queuing all the time, you need to address that. I don't think any pro players are doing that though.

Once we have more data we can figure out whether the SQ needs to be slightly adjusted for race at the pro level - or just compared within races as Whitewing suggested.


These are some fair points. I agree that on the whole SQ seems to be a decent metric of skill measurement, as your correlation with increasing league level shows. I just also think it is good to keep these inherent flaws in mind as they can explain unexpected variance (such as already described above regarding Goody).
Tantaburs
Profile Joined August 2010
Canada1825 Posts
October 29 2011 02:42 GMT
#29
So i took the the time to calculate my SQ and found to things

1. My macro is alot better then i thought it was with a SQ of 80 over 15 games

2. I macro like a beat when i proxy gate =P average proxy gate SQ 92
"One cannot play StarCraft with clenched fish.." ~Nick "Confucius" Plott
whatthefat
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States918 Posts
October 29 2011 02:44 GMT
#30
On October 29 2011 11:35 Reborn8u wrote:
Protoss is of course going to have higher unspent, zergs and terrans can make 50 mineral units. So all game long a protoss player would have to wait for at least 100 before he can spend it. Not only that but because of warp cycles, protoss is always going to be stacking up minerals in between cycles. Where a zerg can constantly spend if he has larva and a terran can cue units. All of this artificially inflates a protoss players average unspent resources. Especially when you look at the cost of stalkers, colossus, immortals compared to anything terran or zerg are producing in the mid game. Protoss has to let more pile up before it gets spent. On top of that most protoss upgrades and tech structures are 2x the cost of terran or zergs.

This clearly demonstrates protoss having more unspent. I think it is purely a result of the race mechanics.

+ Show Spoiler +
[image loading]


Please note that the graph colors correspond to the graph above that, i.e., green = masters, red = top 100, blue = top 10. It's not showing races - they end up pretty much on top of each other (you can actually see the top 100 plot by race in the original SQ thread). Sorry, I should have made that clear in the OP - I'll edit now.
SlayerS_BoxeR: "I always feel sorry towards Greg (Grack?) T_T"
whatthefat
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States918 Posts
October 29 2011 02:46 GMT
#31
On October 29 2011 11:35 heyoka wrote:
Everything you post is amazing, great stuff

SPOTLIGHT

<3
Thanks!
SlayerS_BoxeR: "I always feel sorry towards Greg (Grack?) T_T"
Childplay
Profile Joined October 2011
Canada263 Posts
October 29 2011 02:46 GMT
#32
top 3 control > SQ =D
ReturnStroke
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
United States801 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-10-29 02:51:02
October 29 2011 02:49 GMT
#33
This guy has put SO much time into his posts. Kudos
KiF1rE
Profile Blog Joined November 2009
United States964 Posts
October 29 2011 02:50 GMT
#34
these things are always interesting and yet depressing to me at the same time.

when averaging games with builds ive refined and feel comfortable with my sq averages at 92 lol... and ive been stuck in master =/

On October 29 2011 11:01 Pokebunny wrote:
Great article.

Protoss can be explained by the fact that it is the only race where it's sometimes actually good to overmake warp gates and bank resources. I suspect that is why we see lower protoss SQ especially in tournaments; planned strategies probably take the into plan more than ladder strategies, and the very best protoss are more likely to implement this often.


and then this is something ive actually changed instead of spending it instantly ive been trying to bank a little more and make better decisions, my sq dropped and my MMR went up to the point i got paired with you lol...though its awkward yet i think your so right. i hope the next time i get you on the ladder i dont choke =P
Praetorial
Profile Blog Joined May 2011
United States4241 Posts
October 29 2011 02:51 GMT
#35
I read this. I'm afraid I don't understand most of the statistics, but those results sure are interesting to look at. Great work!
FOR GREAT JUSTICE! Bans for the ban gods!
crms
Profile Joined February 2010
United States11933 Posts
October 29 2011 02:53 GMT
#36
yeahhh ret! SQ bOSS.
http://i.imgur.com/fAUOr2c.png | Fighting games are great
Amornthep
Profile Blog Joined September 2011
Singapore2605 Posts
October 29 2011 02:54 GMT
#37
Very interesting and detailed analysis.
Sniper937
Profile Joined October 2011
Canada23 Posts
October 29 2011 02:56 GMT
#38
On October 29 2011 10:50 MonkSEA wrote:
I think the warpgate mechanic might actually be hindering Protoss' SQ, but very nice read. I'm pretty surprised at Bombers SQ and Ret's as well.


this. a lot of players like to use all their warp gates at once to "save apm" so during the cool down the resources pile up.
GhostFall
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
United States830 Posts
October 29 2011 02:57 GMT
#39
This does give inspiration to blizzard to include in the end game stats total queue time of units.

For example, if there are 2 units queued up, not being built, than the Total Queue Time counter would be going up by 2 a second.

Then if Blizzard could also reveal game length in the statistics, you could make a similiar SQ, for queue time.
Verator
Profile Joined June 2010
United States283 Posts
October 29 2011 02:58 GMT
#40
With the large amount of tournament replays available, it would be nice to put as many tournaments together into this as possible, perhaps segregated by month?

Additionally, there has to be a reasonable web application or tool which people can submit their own data into quickly, to increase the sample size significantly.
So far as I can remember, there is not one word in the Gospels in praise of intelligence. -- Bertrand Russell
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