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On May 31 2010 23:12 KorvspaD wrote:
Its amazing how many people posting in here without reading anything at all. I don't understand how anyone can side with blizzard in this and still pretend to be an esports fan. I don't give a shit about SC2 at this point. Blizzard/GOM can do whatever the hell they want with it, but if they end up killing SC:BW with this I'll never forgive them.
sign me in
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KeSPA is not hiding behind the fans, I think when it comes down to it they are in the right. At this point, in Korea I don't believe Blizzard should receive compensation for the use of their game if they are going to control the scene and who does what. It's ridiculous.
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On May 31 2010 22:59 keV. wrote:
Yes, KeSPA has done a great job making money for itself AND promoting the growth of eSports. You have no idea what happened in negotiations, so don't act like you do. Yes, Blizzard wants more control, they've made it clear. They are not the ones hiding behind "the growth of esports" and "the fans." KeSPA wields too much control and personal stake in eSports for them to grow uninhibited.
Yeah, Blizzard has done a great job making money for itself and promoting the growth of ESPORTS. Oh wait...
Have you not read the Blizzard interviews? Pretty much every answer somehow references them caring for the fans and promoting ESPORTS. The "hiding" you are talking about it called PR, every company does it.
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On May 31 2010 23:12 KorvspaD wrote:
Its amazing how many people posting in here without reading anything at all. I don't understand how anyone can side with blizzard in this and still pretend to be an esports fan. I don't give a shit about SC2 at this point. Blizzard/GOM can do whatever the hell they want with it, but if they end up killing SC:BW with this I'll never forgive them.
this is exactly what i said in the irc channel. i have no idea how anyone can side with blizzard after reading this.
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On May 31 2010 22:59 keV. wrote:
Well Australians are fucking stupid.
I only mentioned that i have distaste for how you and some of your compatriots seem to bask in short-sighted corporate greed like it's a virtue. If you're just going to result to insults backed up by blind ignorance and sophistry than I'll leave you to it. The company/pro-team thing was funny though, we should really start calling Federer Nike.
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I'm so sick of KeSPA calling on the fans, all they're trying to do is pretend that they're appealing purely to the masses and attempting to get anybody on their side. They screwed up, now they have to deal with the company they killed, and I hope GOM handles it with great vengeance and furious anger.
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On May 31 2010 23:14 buhhy wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2010 22:59 keV. wrote:
To your first point, It is not their responsibility to handle a professional scene AND make the games. My only point was that KeSPA should not be the EXCLUSIVE association that is handling an entire pro-scene.
Lol. If it is not their responsibility to handle a professional scene, then they do not need control of it. End of story. You seem to have misconceptions on what KeSPA is; it's the conglomerate of ALL the corporate sponsors. If a company like Pringles would like to start investing in the progaming scene beyond a tournament, it's going to join KeSPA. The only reason KeSPA is the exclusive association managing the pro-scene is because the market impact of the pro-scene is so small. If there was more interest, more companies would begin sponsoring teams and more associations will emerge. Simple supply and demand.
Blizzard just sold broadcast rights to GOM. They won't be handling anything. I understand what KeSPA is, what people don't seem to understand is how much control their position offers. I find it odd people are still making these kind of points when the Blizzard/GOM tournament was spat on by KeSPA just recently. The issue is the indirect control KeSPA wields over the pro-teams and broadcasting.
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Netherlands4511 Posts
People definately should NOT feel sorry for KeSPa.
Look at how progamers are treated, look at the lives they are living, look what happens to retired progamers, there are tons of 'progamers' out there playing 12 hours a day for years without getting paid...
And then just look at their history and what they have done to companies like GOM etc...
I don't buy any of the stuff KeSPa is saying.
I find it hard to believe that Blizzard/GOM would make things worse for your average B team or Low A team progamer.
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The grace period is too short. It should at least be a year. Brood War will die this august and the rest of the scene with it I'm afraid. For anyone thinking esports will be big in the USA/EU now, your naive. The social stigma on games is far greater here than in Asia. Also it took 10 years to grow SC in Korea only.
I agree with KESPA here on principal. Blizzard has no IP rights on broadcasting/streaming/videos of it's games imho. They own the game and sell it, and that should be it. Greedy is all you can say.
Blizzard is killing korean esports, that's how it is. And along with it any hope of expansion.
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On May 31 2010 12:50 Empyrean wrote:
Will this reach the Korean courts?
No doubt. And I think it's probable that the courts will side with KeSPA. They already have in the past:
"[The] Korean government's response on a copyright infringement claim in Blizzard vs. Kespa case was plain simple: as Kespa is the official Korean e-sports coordinator, a ruling body similar to European auto sport FIA, all the decisions must go through them, and just like that we are at a stalemate."
http://www.gosugamers.net/starcraft/news/10265-blizzard-vs-kespa-the-ultimate-fight
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I'm happy that there is BW Proleage, I'm content that there is Kespa and people who make it real, else we would never have known all the beauty of this game, and for this I will always be grateful to anyone from Korea, who somehow was involved in it. The idea that Blizzard will try to make anything like that sounds amusing to say the less, do u believe they will invest in creating some non-korean proleage? With SC2 just another era of amateurish tounaments will emerge to the scene flooding us with its phony level of entertainment and skill.
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On May 31 2010 23:24 ret wrote:
People definately should NOT feel sorry for KeSPa.
Look at how progamers are treated, look at the lives they are living, look what happens to retired progamers, there are tons of 'progamers' out there playing 12 hours a day for years without getting paid...
And then just look at their history and what they have done to companies like GOM etc...
I don't buy any of the stuff KeSPa is saying.
I find it hard to believe that Blizzard/GOM would make things worse for your average B team or Low A team progamer.
I think being unemployed is worse than the current conditions.
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On May 31 2010 23:18 buhhy wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2010 22:59 keV. wrote:
Yes, KeSPA has done a great job making money for itself AND promoting the growth of eSports. You have no idea what happened in negotiations, so don't act like you do. Yes, Blizzard wants more control, they've made it clear. They are not the ones hiding behind "the growth of esports" and "the fans." KeSPA wields too much control and personal stake in eSports for them to grow uninhibited.
Yeah, Blizzard has done a great job making money for itself and promoting the growth of ESPORTS. Oh wait... Have you not read the Blizzard interviews? Pretty much every answer somehow references them caring for the fans and promoting ESPORTS. The "hiding" you are talking about it called PR, every company does it.
I don't have a defense for that. Conceded.
On May 31 2010 23:19 Scarecrow wrote:I only mentioned that i have distaste for how you and some of your compatriots seem to bask in short-sighted corporate greed like it's a virtue. If you're just going to result to insults backed up by blind ignorance and sophistry than I'll leave you to it. The company/pro-team thing was funny though, we should really start calling Federer Nike.
So you were insulting me because I'm American, I understand. That is what I said. I was just thinking about how you and some of your Australian brethren have a knack for saying retarded things.
I still am amazed people can be OK with the way KeSPA treats players. I really am.
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Netherlands4511 Posts
On May 31 2010 23:28 SuperArc wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2010 23:24 ret wrote:
People definately should NOT feel sorry for KeSPa.
Look at how progamers are treated, look at the lives they are living, look what happens to retired progamers, there are tons of 'progamers' out there playing 12 hours a day for years without getting paid...
And then just look at their history and what they have done to companies like GOM etc...
I don't buy any of the stuff KeSPa is saying.
I find it hard to believe that Blizzard/GOM would make things worse for your average B team or Low A team progamer. I think being unemployed is worse than the current conditions.
In my opinion it is definately not. Current conditions equal slavery almost. Unemployment leaves room to chase different carreer paths. Which would be best for anyone outside of the top20 players ( 90% of them ), or anyone that doesnt rig matches. 
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5003 Posts
On May 31 2010 23:29 ret wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2010 23:28 SuperArc wrote:On May 31 2010 23:24 ret wrote:
People definately should NOT feel sorry for KeSPa.
Look at how progamers are treated, look at the lives they are living, look what happens to retired progamers, there are tons of 'progamers' out there playing 12 hours a day for years without getting paid...
And then just look at their history and what they have done to companies like GOM etc...
I don't buy any of the stuff KeSPa is saying.
I find it hard to believe that Blizzard/GOM would make things worse for your average B team or Low A team progamer. I think being unemployed is worse than the current conditions. In my opinion it is definately not. Current conditions equal slavery almost. Unemployment leaves room to chase different carreer paths.
They were unemployed. They chose to work for those conditions. They made the choice. Are we to stop people from gambling? Because that's what B teamers are actually doing.
Almost slavery? Way to completely and utterly undermine actual slavery.
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On May 31 2010 22:52 Milkis wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2010 22:43 mustache wrote:
Why is it a necessity? The Korean scene has been amazing in the promotion of SC1 and SC2 would be the same. Kespa is willing to pay royalties whilst Blizzard spouts clandestine demands for total control far beyond their rights as game designers and their abilities as esport organisers. Blizzard's investment in the Korean scene has been a joke and now they want it all just to make a quick buck. KespA re-invests profits in the scene and functions purely as an advertiser for blizzard and the company's that comprise the pro-teams. It sickens me that Americans like yourself see this greedy, short term power play as glorious. I'll be laughing when Activision-Blizzard shits all over its remaining naive fanboys for the $$$.
1) Stop living in your make believe world. Kespa is around to make money. How is paying B-Teamers no money "re-investing" it into the pro scene? Sounds like they invest in players that earn them money in turn.. 2)Being american has nothing to do with it. Take your strawman arguments elsewhere. Plus Blizz is owned by Vivendi. At least 54%. They're french btw. 3) If blizz shits on its fans it shits on itself. No fans, no money, no blizzard. you'll learn this in school eventually Can you people stop talking about B Teamers and pretend that that is a valid point? Not even minor leaguers in baseball/other sports have well paid minor leagues. B Leaguers are there because they want a chance to be an A teamer. Nothing else.
Minor league ball players make roughly 15k a year and they don't have to live as slaves. Hell you can do it part time.
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On May 31 2010 23:29 ret wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2010 23:28 SuperArc wrote:On May 31 2010 23:24 ret wrote:
People definately should NOT feel sorry for KeSPa.
Look at how progamers are treated, look at the lives they are living, look what happens to retired progamers, there are tons of 'progamers' out there playing 12 hours a day for years without getting paid...
And then just look at their history and what they have done to companies like GOM etc...
I don't buy any of the stuff KeSPa is saying.
I find it hard to believe that Blizzard/GOM would make things worse for your average B team or Low A team progamer. I think being unemployed is worse than the current conditions. In my opinion it is definately not. Current conditions equal slavery almost. Unemployment leaves room to chase different carreer paths.
You do know that most of them have given up their school for their careers? They won't find anything good for working. Especially when Kespa and Korean BW scene dies.
Wtf, how can you call unemployment better. That's something only an European can say.
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5003 Posts
On May 31 2010 23:31 keV. wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2010 22:52 Milkis wrote:On May 31 2010 22:43 mustache wrote:
Why is it a necessity? The Korean scene has been amazing in the promotion of SC1 and SC2 would be the same. Kespa is willing to pay royalties whilst Blizzard spouts clandestine demands for total control far beyond their rights as game designers and their abilities as esport organisers. Blizzard's investment in the Korean scene has been a joke and now they want it all just to make a quick buck. KespA re-invests profits in the scene and functions purely as an advertiser for blizzard and the company's that comprise the pro-teams. It sickens me that Americans like yourself see this greedy, short term power play as glorious. I'll be laughing when Activision-Blizzard shits all over its remaining naive fanboys for the $$$.
1) Stop living in your make believe world. Kespa is around to make money. How is paying B-Teamers no money "re-investing" it into the pro scene? Sounds like they invest in players that earn them money in turn.. 2)Being american has nothing to do with it. Take your strawman arguments elsewhere. Plus Blizz is owned by Vivendi. At least 54%. They're french btw. 3) If blizz shits on its fans it shits on itself. No fans, no money, no blizzard. you'll learn this in school eventually Can you people stop talking about B Teamers and pretend that that is a valid point? Not even minor leaguers in baseball/other sports have well paid minor leagues. B Leaguers are there because they want a chance to be an A teamer. Nothing else. Minor league ball players make roughly 15k a year and they don't have to live as slaves. Hell you can do it part time.
At most, 1100 a month. In the United States.
Notice how 1) Baseball has a much bigger audience, 2) US has twice the PCI of Korea, 3) B teamers are paid living expenses.
It works out to be about the same either way. They're all gambling.
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Netherlands4511 Posts
On May 31 2010 23:31 Milkis wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2010 23:29 ret wrote:On May 31 2010 23:28 SuperArc wrote:On May 31 2010 23:24 ret wrote:
People definately should NOT feel sorry for KeSPa.
Look at how progamers are treated, look at the lives they are living, look what happens to retired progamers, there are tons of 'progamers' out there playing 12 hours a day for years without getting paid...
And then just look at their history and what they have done to companies like GOM etc...
I don't buy any of the stuff KeSPa is saying.
I find it hard to believe that Blizzard/GOM would make things worse for your average B team or Low A team progamer. I think being unemployed is worse than the current conditions. In my opinion it is definately not. Current conditions equal slavery almost. Unemployment leaves room to chase different carreer paths. They were unemployed. They chose to work for those conditions. They made the choice. Are we to stop people from gambling? Because that's what B teamers are actually doing. Almost slavery? Way to completely and utterly undermine actual slavery.
No they were young teenage kids chasing a dream without knowing where they would end up and what the consequences would be... naive 12-13 year old boys. Read the recent articles about the progamers conditions coming from the Korean Community.
Slavery is just a term, perhaps not rightfully used, im sorry if anyone is offended.
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Netherlands4511 Posts
On May 31 2010 23:31 SuperArc wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2010 23:29 ret wrote:On May 31 2010 23:28 SuperArc wrote:On May 31 2010 23:24 ret wrote:
People definately should NOT feel sorry for KeSPa.
Look at how progamers are treated, look at the lives they are living, look what happens to retired progamers, there are tons of 'progamers' out there playing 12 hours a day for years without getting paid...
And then just look at their history and what they have done to companies like GOM etc...
I don't buy any of the stuff KeSPa is saying.
I find it hard to believe that Blizzard/GOM would make things worse for your average B team or Low A team progamer. I think being unemployed is worse than the current conditions. In my opinion it is definately not. Current conditions equal slavery almost. Unemployment leaves room to chase different carreer paths. You do know that most of them have given up their school for their careers? They won't find anything good for working. Especially when Kespa and Korean BW scene dies. Wtf, how can you call unemployment better. That's something only an European can say.
It's better for them to end up in this situation now, then when they are 25-26 years old and still haven't achieved anything. Most of them won't. On top of that, most players are still very young and they do have parents.... you overdramatize things.
Also : I said that Blizzard will do things better if they do win this pending lawsuit. I think the situation for the players will improve. Unemployment would definately be the worst case scenario. Noone knows what's going to happen.
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EPT
