EPT[SC2] Zerg & Larvae Injection - Page 5
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professorjoak
318 Posts
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FabledIntegral
United States9232 Posts
On September 03 2009 10:11 tedster wrote: Everyone who feels that this could be fixed by simply making the Queen more expensive is missing the point - there is no choice when it comes to the Queen, and regardless of how much she costs Zerg still has to beeline straight to her, at which point they have a ridiculous economic advantage and unit production rate for the rest of the game. This is stupid good on a number of levels, but Hot_Bid is the first reviewer to point out the craziest and most counter-intuitive issue - zerg now has the EASIEST time reaching mad drone saturation, instead of the hardest, and benefits from it more than any other race, since they can pretty easily reach infinite unit production rates (infinite larvae) with the smallest expenditure. Not true - if you put the Queen later in the game, or the inject larvae at least, Zerg will be much more vulnerable early game to rushes, etc. It will also allow T/P to establish their positions on the field more. I heard a 2gate rush is quite hard to counter without the Queen. It will not only reestablish the entire concept of Zerg needing to go beyond 1 base play, but also force Zerg to play at a much slower gamepace, etc. T/P won't have to overcompensate on defenses as much either, and will have chances to throw in their own macro mechanics. Defending from rushes means less drone pumping and more unit pumping, which means they'll prob not be able to afford a queen as soon because all minerals will be spent on either units or more drones. Remember, spawn larvae only creates more larvae, you need minerals to actually buy the units. I'm not arguing it's not imbalanced or some shit like that or that merely making it more expensive would be the solution. Personally I'd like to see "spawn larvae" continue to spawn something like 4 larvae for a very expensive mana cost, maybe significantly more than it does now. Also spawn larvae could be researchable for something like 100 gas, and a Queen spawns with 0 mana unlike most units that have some. If it costs the same to build, however, Queens can still be used in fending off rushes, etc. EDIT: Note the post wasn't addressing the fact that it might be superior to P/T mechanics for hte rest of the game, rather rushing to queens would be just as viable, etc. It'd def help the early game and transition into midgame, which is the time that Zerg has Toss/Terran in the dark. I remember in early versions of SC that the wraith had an upgrade that allowed it to even have a ground attack - maybe have that with the queen as well so it's harder to kill scouting units. | ||
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Misrah
United States1695 Posts
Very well written, and extremely informative. thanks for the time and effort. It's greatly appreciated! I <3 zerg >) | ||
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tedster
984 Posts
On September 03 2009 10:58 FabledIntegral wrote: Not true - if you put the Queen later in the game, or the inject larvae at least, Zerg will be much more vulnerable early game to rushes, etc. It will also allow T/P to establish their positions on the field more. I heard a 2gate rush is quite hard to counter without the Queen. It will not only reestablish the entire concept of Zerg needing to go beyond 1 base play, but also force Zerg to play at a much slower gamepace, etc. T/P won't have to overcompensate on defenses as much either, and will have chances to throw in their own macro mechanics. Defending from rushes means less drone pumping and more unit pumping, which means they'll prob not be able to afford a queen as soon because all minerals will be spent on either units or more drones. Remember, spawn larvae only creates more larvae, you need minerals to actually buy the units. If you move the queen to later game because it's too overpowered early game, you're basically saying zerg has to be as good early on (when it doesn't have a macro mechanic) as T or P when they do have their mechanic, which would probably throw the balance of power off even further as soon as the queen did come into play, all while making zerg easier to play. No matter where you put the queen in its current incarnation, it's going to create an imbalanced playing field unless the other races gain dramatic new macro mechanics. | ||
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Nuj
United States24 Posts
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JWD
United States12607 Posts
Silversky: holy shit, what a classy and appropriate banner. | ||
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Clow
Brazil880 Posts
But after reading your article, I think it's just a matter of how you play the races. People are playing SC2 with the BW mind and start making assumptions that aren't true. If Zerg stays the way you said it is (mass units), I'm gonna be happy. And if it needs to be balanced, Blizzards' gonna do it, that's not an issue. For the Swarm. | ||
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genryou
Malaysia390 Posts
though I dont see how is that possible, 1-Hatch seem like a pretty solid strategy with no obvious weakness. Maybe Terran can float buildings to Z main as alternate way to get info since SCV would surely died to Queen. | ||
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uglymoose89
United States671 Posts
Like start with only one or two larvae that can be spawned. And as you upgrade the ability you can get more larva per spawn. This would allow the zerg to still have this ability early game but not be able to use it to gain as large of an advantage as they would have with the origional ability. This would also keep the queen as Level one tech without eliminating the ability or the unit altogether. | ||
SilverskY
Korea (South)3086 Posts
On September 03 2009 11:26 JWD wrote: This is a great article HB, very informative. Silversky: holy shit, what a classy and appropriate banner. Haha, the credit for the concept goes all to Hot_Bid. But, yeah I love the banner for this one too~ :D | ||
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hyst.eric.al
United States2332 Posts
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genryou
Malaysia390 Posts
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blue_arrow
1971 Posts
On September 03 2009 12:01 genryou wrote: I want to see the reaction from the guy at the Gamereplay. i want to see everyones reactions! very insightful article, wish i could play =p | ||
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Archerofaiur
United States4101 Posts
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Luddite
United States2315 Posts
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Jibba
United States22883 Posts
On September 03 2009 11:43 uglymoose89 wrote: What if the Queen's spawning ability wasn't as effective early game but gained effectiveness later on as you went higher in the tech tree. This would not only prevent such early advantages but allow the zerg to keep up as the game gets to late game. Like start with only one or two larvae that can be spawned. And as you upgrade the ability you can get more larva per spawn. This would allow the zerg to still have this ability early game but not be able to use it to gain as large of an advantage as they would have with the origional ability. This would also keep the queen as Level one tech without eliminating the ability or the unit altogether. I don't think this, increased costs or later tech are the proper solution. Maybe my take on it isn't accurate, but it sounds like Inject Larvae breaks the philosophy of Zerg itself, that is numerous/expansive bases and a critical choice between army and economy. Zerg outnumber their opponents, so it just makes no sense that Zerg should be able to play late game against P/T on just 2 bases. I don't think they'll take the route of increasing mana cost simply because they want it to be a new component to macro like the P/T equivalents. Casting it once every 150 energy instead of 25 energy is a huge difference in your econ management. Maybe a better solution would just be to reduce the amount of larvae added. Also, thanks for the article HB, and I'm also impressed with your idea behind it. Instead of making a worthless complete summary of the race based purely off FUD *coughGameReplayscough*, you chose something very specific so that you could try to understand all the dimensions of it. Very smart move. | ||
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Tyraz
New Zealand310 Posts
On September 03 2009 12:13 Jibba wrote: I don't think this, increased costs or later tech are the proper solution. Maybe my take on it isn't accurate, but it sounds like Inject Larvae breaks the philosophy of Zerg itself, that is numerous/expansive bases and a critical choice between army and economy. Zerg outnumber their opponents, so it just makes no sense that Zerg should be able to play late game against P/T on just 2 bases. I don't think they'll take the route of increasing mana cost simply because they want it to be a new component to macro like the P/T equivalents. Casting it once every 150 energy instead of 25 energy is a huge difference in your econ management. Maybe a better solution would just be to reduce the amount of larvae added. Also, thanks for the article HB, and I'm also impressed with your idea behind it. Instead of making a worthless complete summary of the race based purely off FUD *coughGameReplayscough*, you chose something very specific so that you could try to understand all the dimensions of it. Very smart move. Or Individual Lava upgrades per queen? So you have the choice of waiting for like 150 energy to boost total amount of Lava up to a maximum of 4 (from 2 or something) or just keep shootin them out? That way when you get a new expo, you need to keep making the decisions. Just an idea though. | ||
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uglymoose89
United States671 Posts
On September 03 2009 12:13 Jibba wrote: I don't think this, increased costs or later tech are the proper solution. Maybe my take on it isn't accurate, but it sounds like Inject Larvae breaks the philosophy of Zerg itself, that is numerous/expansive bases and a critical choice between army and economy. Zerg outnumber their opponents, so it just makes no sense that Zerg should be able to play late game against P/T on just 2 bases. I don't think they'll take the route of increasing mana cost simply because they want it to be a new component to macro like the P/T equivalents. Casting it once every 150 energy instead of 25 energy is a huge difference in your econ management. Maybe a better solution would just be to reduce the amount of larvae added. Also, thanks for the article HB, and I'm also impressed with your idea behind it. Instead of making a worthless complete summary of the race based purely off FUD *coughGameReplayscough*, you chose something very specific so that you could try to understand all the dimensions of it. Very smart move. But my idea wasn't just later tech. The ability remains at the lower level just not as effective as it is right now. But higher in the tech tree the ability would gain potency. The upgrades to make more larvae per cast coupled with a higher energy cost would help alleviate the problem of zerg being able to power drones early on that easily. | ||
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Jibba
United States22883 Posts
On September 03 2009 12:20 uglymoose89 wrote: I know but you're still faced with the problem (and I do think it's a game design problem) of Zerg 2 basing. Now min/gas requirements might force them to get to 3/4 bases, but the unit production with that is still just off the charts, and within 30 seconds of that 3rd base going down, it can be fully drone saturated while the 1st hatchery works on other units.+ Show Spoiler + On September 03 2009 12:13 Jibba wrote: I don't think this, increased costs or later tech are the proper solution. Maybe my take on it isn't accurate, but it sounds like Inject Larvae breaks the philosophy of Zerg itself, that is numerous/expansive bases and a critical choice between army and economy. Zerg outnumber their opponents, so it just makes no sense that Zerg should be able to play late game against P/T on just 2 bases. I don't think they'll take the route of increasing mana cost simply because they want it to be a new component to macro like the P/T equivalents. Casting it once every 150 energy instead of 25 energy is a huge difference in your econ management. Maybe a better solution would just be to reduce the amount of larvae added. Also, thanks for the article HB, and I'm also impressed with your idea behind it. Instead of making a worthless complete summary of the race based purely off FUD *coughGameReplayscough*, you chose something very specific so that you could try to understand all the dimensions of it. Very smart move. But my idea wasn't just later tech. The ability remains at the lower level just not as effective as it is right now. But higher in the tech tree the ability would gain potency. The upgrades to make more larvae per cast coupled with a higher energy cost would help alleviate the problem of zerg being able to power drones early on that easily. I know that latter part is theorycraft, but for the people who played 1hatch builds extensively, do you think Zerg can hold their own lategame with 2 hatch (ignoring the ridiculous tier1 advantage they're currently getting)? I mean simply production wise. | ||
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Islandsnake
United States679 Posts
*enjoyed this. | ||
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