EPT[SC2] Zerg & Larvae Injection - Page 20
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Archerofaiur
United States4101 Posts
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WWJDD
India342 Posts
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Grendor
United States70 Posts
On September 07 2009 10:25 Archerofaiur wrote: This is allittle off topic but could anyone who went to Blizzcon draw us the changling? The creature has been around for months and we still have no idea what it looks like. I made one, not even knowing what it was. It dropped out of an overlord or overseer, I can't remember which. Basically it looked like those guys in hell in diablo2 that drag their torsos on the ground and walk with their arms. They also carry a sack of orange liquid if I remember correctly. Speed seemed similar to an unupgraded zergling. | ||
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Archerofaiur
United States4101 Posts
On September 07 2009 11:52 WWJDD wrote: WTF is a changeling? lol my point exactly Grendor (or someone else) could you draw us one? | ||
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goatrope
Canada41 Posts
On September 07 2009 09:28 Hot_Bid wrote: nice! i'm happy to know that even if im wrong in this article i at least helped a few TL'ers win beta keys by abusing a 1-hatch Queen build lol One more reporting in! I got pretty lucky and ended up fighting Cydra (I think) on Zerg who is apparently not as good as Karune. I had played 4 or 5 skirmishes vs the computer and one vs a human where I used the 1hat queen build so I was getting comfortable with the game. I'm not great at BW; I hover around D+/C- with 150-175 apm for reference. I did a 12 or 13 pool, gas, got 6 lings to block my ramp to deny a drone scout, and positioned my queen to kill an incoming overlord. I rallied future lings to an area in my base that I didn't think his overlord would spot. Then I goofed and actually lost my own scouting overlord to his queen which sent me into a panic; I was going to lose my beta key! But I caught back up in overlords and by the time speed finished I had about 18 lings. Moving out I encountered 6-8 lings of his which I easily surrounded and just moved into his base for an easy win. Turned out he laired right after killing my overlord and was planning to do a quick 1hat+queen muta build. Anticlimactic.  I was the third person in line and the first person to use the build, and expected the people after me to have a tougher time winning with it. But as evidenced by posts here and elsewhere, a few still found success. That said, having watched Karune play and having discussed it with him (and a couple other folks, some TLers) in detail it doesn't seem as overpowered as once thought. In ZvP if the protoss walls with gateways and doesn't mismicro his zealot block, I can't see it ever winning. I didn't get to see it used in ZvT but speaking with Karune he felt confident he could survive it with a wall + repair micro, and marauders if the zerg does a hydra switch. ZvZ it is apparently the dominant build and it is purportedly being worked on. It's definitely strong, maybe imbalanced, but very far from unbeatable. | ||
Manifesto7
Osaka27174 Posts
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Archerofaiur
United States4101 Posts
On September 07 2009 12:02 Grendor wrote: I made one, not even knowing what it was. It dropped out of an overlord or overseer, I can't remember which. Basically it looked like those guys in hell in diablo2 that drag their torsos on the ground and walk with their arms. They also carry a sack of orange liquid if I remember correctly. Speed seemed similar to an unupgraded zergling. It looked like these guys? ![[image loading]](http://dia2.somegate.com/info_monster/act5/putriddefiler-opt.gif) On September 07 2009 22:08 Manifesto7 wrote: After reading through the continuing repost (great job goatrope and CauthonLuck) I'm just a little worries about the narrowness of the early game. As I assumed, there is something that is safe from this build, but hopefully the game is not locked into that and is a bit more dynamic. It would suck to know you have to do a very similar opening every time in a certain matchup. How quickly the game opens up probably depends on allot of things. Instead of thinking about the macro mechanics as strategic choices it might be better to think of them as the backbone of the game. For instance, the player is supposed to make drones. No one ever looks at drones and says "man I wish it was possible to do a build that didnt include making drones first." Well except for rushes but that should still apply to the queen. The point is that making the queen is as much of a certainty as making drones. This doesn mean that there cant be variation in the opening builds. | ||
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eshlow
United States5210 Posts
What is/was the actual build order you guys are using (HB and the people who helped write/research article)? How many initial lings are you making? How many of the initial inject larva go towards drones and/or lings/hydras? The one thing I've seen a lot of times is without a clear precise build order there's going to be differences in drone/military count which may or may not affect the ability to mass produce. Some people may be making too much military too early, not enough drones overall, too many drones, etc. As Mani said though... if 1H Q is THE dominant build in a matchup then there's not going to be much variation in the early game which is bad for competitive games. | ||
TanGeng
Sanya12364 Posts
On September 07 2009 20:44 goatrope wrote: That said, having watched Karune play and having discussed it with him (and a couple other folks, some TLers) in detail it doesn't seem as overpowered as once thought. In ZvP if the protoss walls with gateways and doesn't mismicro his zealot block, I can't see it ever winning. I didn't get to see it used in ZvT but speaking with Karune he felt confident he could survive it with a wall + repair micro, and marauders if the zerg does a hydra switch. ZvZ it is apparently the dominant build and it is purportedly being worked on. It's definitely strong, maybe imbalanced, but very far from unbeatable. I think if the protoss were 100% sure that a Zerg was going to ling up and then do a hydra switch, the protoss would be able to fend off the early attack without falling behind. But it's entirely possible for the zerg to power to tier 3 and come at the protoss with an overwhelming economic attack while the P over built tier 1 defenses. The part of denying the scouting information is to keep the opponent guessing on what the Zerg can and will do. | ||
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Teejing
Germany1360 Posts
On September 08 2009 02:15 TanGeng wrote: I think if the protoss were 100% sure that a Zerg was going to ling up and then do a hydra switch, the protoss would be able to fend off the early attack without falling behind. But it's entirely possible for the zerg to power to tier 3 and come at the protoss with an overwhelming economic attack while the P over built tier 1 defenses. The part of denying the scouting information is to keep the opponent guessing on what the Zerg can and will do. Is it really viable to tech to t3 from 1 base? | ||
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ghrur
United States3786 Posts
On September 08 2009 03:31 Teejing wrote: Is it really viable to tech to t3 from 1 base? Who said Z had to keep at one base? | ||
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Grendor
United States70 Posts
It looked like these guys? yep | ||
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Shadeye
Australia75 Posts
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Archerofaiur
United States4101 Posts
http://forums.battle.net/thread.html?topicId=19820873170&postId=198189898001&sid=3000#2 "Additionally, the 1hatch queen build is strong, but relatively easy to stop if you know this is a potential strategy on the field. These are just a few strategies I use and by no means the only strategies I've seen used: With Terran, you will naturally want to block your choke point. This in itself will easily stop fast Zerglings, as you can use Marines to fire upon enemies from a cliff (since they don't have LoS, just make sure you keep those pesky Overlords at bay, which is relatively easy as well). SCVs do an excellent job of repairing much faster than Zerglings can do damage at this early of a stage. Hydralisks on the other hand pose a bit more problems, but can still be handled by a group of Marines behind supply depots or even a bunker if it is needed. Terran choke points are quite difficult to break at the moment and while your enemy expends resources determined to break it, I would hope you would be teching either to Banshees or Reapers for harassment, then putting them into the defensive and taking you into the mid-game, where arguably at the moment Zerg is forced to be at a defensive if they did do the 1hatch queen strategy (key point being the 1 hatch or late expand). With Protoss, the proposed Zerg strategy is a bit more viable and it takes a little more skill to defend against it. For me, I often block my choke point with 2 gateways or 1 gateway/1 cybernetics core (if I am teching), leaving one cell open for an easy single Zealot block. Breaking that choke point for a single Zergling hitting that Zealot at a time, is an easy block, and quite cost effective for the Protoss player. For a determined Zerg player, they would either start attacking the gateways or tech to Banelings to take out the Zealot(s). Timing-wise, you will be able to get your second Zealot out in time well before the Gateway is even at half health, which is usually enough to push off those initial Zerglings. When your Cybernetics Core is up, this opens up Nullifiers, which is a must used unit in my opinion against Zerg. At this time if the Zerg player has converted to Hydralisks (or even straight teched to Hydralisks), you should have at least one Nullifier up, which are excellent at both killing Hydralisks (with even 1 Zealot tanking) or even better, cutting a Zerg force in half while they push up the ramp, easily allowing your Zealot to hold the choke while your ranged units like Nullifiers and Stalkers annihilate half the force with ease, putting the Zerg on the defensive now, and opening up mid-game options. Of course both strategies require micro, which is intentional - with an Overlord scouting and giving LoS, Hydralisks can be very potent. The 1 hatch queen strategy is quite capable, but not overpowering. Hope this was useful - though you can expect lots of things to still change and be changed throughout beta. Zerg's were mentioned as the 'weaker' race in a developer interview not because of their early game, but their mid game. In current builds, it is much more balanced with recent changes to make Zerg a bit more threatening in mid-game, such as Roaches moving while burrowed as one example. " | ||
Hot_Bid
Braavos36401 Posts
the main thing that enables larvae injection abuse is information denial -- and nobody really has addressed this, except maybe some theorycrafting newbies who simply say "oh scout more" when its basically impossible to see what the Z does past the first three larvae when his pool finishes. | ||
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Archerofaiur
United States4101 Posts
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Joneagle_X
United States26 Posts
Surely Karune's opinion has some weight to you? There's plenty of scouting options beyond the reasons I've stated previously in this thread. Not only can you scout with workers (which I still assert can be done even with pathing improvements and the Queen's ranged attack) but you can utilize the Orbital Scanner, etc... Yes, the Overlord scout is an issue but it's not something that ends the game. Both players equally have the same disadvantage. It's not a simple match of check and mate anymore. And Karune has stated (and I've said it previously here) that the ZvZ matchup is a problem. So they're aware of it and are working on it. Perhaps the new Roach ability to move underground will shift the table a bit. | ||
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Mobius
Canada1268 Posts
Nice write up though | ||
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Manifesto7
Osaka27174 Posts
On September 11 2009 19:32 Joneagle_X wrote: I would've thought the viewpoints discussed by the author of the TL post would have put some of these fears to rest about the 1-Hatch build but I don't think that's going to be the case. Surely Karune's opinion has some weight to you? There's plenty of scouting options beyond the reasons I've stated previously in this thread. Not only can you scout with workers (which I still assert can be done even with pathing improvements and the Queen's ranged attack) but you can utilize the Orbital Scanner, etc... Yes, the Overlord scout is an issue but it's not something that ends the game. Both players equally have the same disadvantage. It's not a simple match of check and mate anymore. And Karune has stated (and I've said it previously here) that the ZvZ matchup is a problem. So they're aware of it and are working on it. Perhaps the new Roach ability to move underground will shift the table a bit. First of all, Karune did not address the point of HB article. He talked about how to defend against a rush. That is not the point here. How can you assert that workers can scout vs a ranged unit and zerglings? Like, how would you do it exactly? You can't do it in BW with "horrible path finding" so how can you do it in SC2 with better path finding? Also, don't you think that using the scan early will hurt your economy? Finally, how exactly would burrowed roaches affect zvz? It is a nice thought, but how would it change the matchup? | ||
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Joneagle_X
United States26 Posts
And the probe's movement speed is slightly faster than that of the Zergling un-upgraded so it's possible to dodge unless they've blocked the choke. Furthermore, the Queen does only 8 damage (4x2) and moves incredibly slowly off Creep (and slower than a probe even when on Creep). Early game so long as you stay out of range and off the Creep she can't hurt your worker. At least not like Hot_Bid has suggested. You might have a hard time harassing with that worker, but it's not tough to scout. Only when you get Speedlings does scouting become an issue and by then you have other options including the Observer (or Orbital Scanner) which, as Karune stated, you can achieve in tier 2 because it doesn't require an observatory. As a Zerg player you also have the option of morphing to an Overseer at lair for 50/100 which gives you the speed boost and detection as well as a food boost of 6 (not sure of that number). The burrowed movement and super-regen (from discussing this build change with Dustin Browder I'm under the impression that the Roaches regen while burrowed just like the last build) Roaches could help the ZvZ matchup by completely negating the presence of Zerglings. A Zerg player could opt for an early tech to Roaches while holding his choke, researching burrow, and then being effectively invincible to Zerglings by moving underground and popping up only to attack. The Roach is already a counter for the Zergling but now it has a way to avoid Zergling surrounds just like the Stalker's Blink. It would be very similar to a Dark Templar strategy against Zerg where you'd need to police Overseers with Corruptors/Mutas, etc. This would make the Roach (with the burrow movement ability) an even more solid counter to the Zergling and even give it a chance against the Hydralisk (while remaining vulnerable to air in true ZvZ ground v air fashion). Essentially what I'm saying is that it would make the ZvZ matchup into a Roach v Roach option rather than Zergling v Zergling. And by forcing that tech jump you're opening the matchup into the higher tiers which makes it far more interesting than the traditional ZvZ mass muta/ling strategies we see in SC:1. Also, I know everyone is upset about the Mutalisk stacking issue but I'd like to add that I think this could be a good thing down the road for competitive play. The hold order attack while moving is great and while it's pretty tough to stack (it can be done during movement, just not while attacking) it's really fun to use the stop and move attack commands now. :D | ||
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