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Osaka27174 Posts
On September 05 2009 15:15 wwsmks wrote:
hi first I'd like to say i am new and i enjoyed reading Hot_Bid's article.
My under standing of it is that the other race do not have the ability to properly
scout out what the opposing Zerg is doing with their extra larva or have an effective
way of getting rid of the queen. So i was wondering if making the creep speed
bonus a upgrade would help solve this.
Hi, welcome. Reducing her speed on the creep would help with the initial scouting I would imagine. The problem still comes from the exponential growth of zerg, rather than the linear growth of terran and protoss. BW managed to balance that with the three larvae system, but it seems the extra larva really stress that balance.
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I think that decreasing the larva count to 3 or increase the spawn larva's cooldown to like 40 second would balance out the ability. I think as of now, the Queen's larva ability seems to be too useful. Having a lot of Hatcheries was actually one of the theme for the Zergs in SC1 and with the introduction of the Queen, it doesn't feel like that anymore.
I still like the feel of having a lot of Hatcheries for the Zerg. Nerfing the spawn larva ability will probably do it. However, this is all subjected to change during beta. I'm sure we will see some dramatic changes once beta hits.
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Wouldn't a slow queen be easier to kill. If you kill the queen once or twice that would negate the minerals saved by not making a hatchery and disrupt spawn larva ability. The queen only has 150 heaths so it could be a safer investment to get a second hatchery with 1250 instead.
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So this means that zerg can fight effectively 1base vs 1 base ? In SC1 no one 1 bases as zerg unless its some extreme cheese/all - in . I think its a good addition to the zerg race . If i want to play 1 base as zerg i don't want to be at a disadvantage against the other races , but if its imbalanced it should be nerfed a bit .
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Sweden33719 Posts
On September 05 2009 15:05 Kennigit wrote:Show nested quote +On September 05 2009 11:40 heyitsme wrote:On September 05 2009 08:01 mutantmagnet wrote:I expect PFs to die easily to zerg/baneling swarms, yet I have a hard time believing your mass hydras would break PFs when so many reviews for awhile stated mass zealots and stalkers died to them (and hydras aren't that much different from Stalkers when it comes to taking down buildings). If you didn't test PF that might've been the type of thing that creates a coin toss uncertainty in your build since you implied mass zerglings have trouble with walled in Terran in general.
yea I would also like to know if you guys tried some sort of PF fast expand build Yes, we tried over and over and over. I know you are reading articles on other sites where people say it's no problem to pylon forge....if you play games vs scrubs who make 5 spawning pools and complain that theres no button to make zerglings then yes you can fe pretty easily. At least with us you have some gauge of where we are coming from as players - my biggest gripe is someone saying they dont even play starcraft but have successfully mastered some build or counter to what was being demonstrated in this article.
PF means Planetary Fortress ...... you idiot
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Zurich15366 Posts
On September 05 2009 08:01 mutantmagnet wrote:I expect PFs to die easily to zerg/baneling swarms, yet I have a hard time believing your mass hydras would break PFs when so many reviews for awhile stated mass zealots and stalkers died to them (and hydras aren't that much different from Stalkers when it comes to taking down buildings). If you didn't test PF that might've been the type of thing that creates a coin toss uncertainty in your build since you implied mass zerglings have trouble with walled in Terran in general.
I could see this working on some maps. A lot of the Blizzcon maps had back entrances so there no PF at the front will help you. Also, runbys are probably effective too.
The larger problem of course is if Zerg sees you making a CC they will expand and whore drones at a rate your 2 CC will never be able to match. Also you won't have the MULE on your nat and very little SCV, so you won't even benefit that much from the expansion.
It's an interesting thought though, maybe you can build a decent midgame army like this and hit the Zerg before hive but I doubt it will work against a smart Zerg player that keeps tabs on your build.
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On September 05 2009 21:28 zatic wrote:
I could see this working on some maps. A lot of the Blizzcon maps had back entrances so there no PF at the front will help you. Also, runbys are probably effective too.
The larger problem of course is if Zerg sees you making a CC they will expand and whore drones at a rate your 2 CC will never be able to match. Also you won't have the MULE on your nat and very little SCV, so you won't even benefit that much from the expansion.
It's an interesting thought though, maybe you can build a decent midgame army like this and hit the Zerg before hive but I doubt it will work against a smart Zerg player that keeps tabs on your build.
I think that this could turn into a little guessing game on both sides if scouting is denied:
zerg sees CC, can decide to attack or expand
- if zerg atttacks, terran can defend with PF
- if zerg expos, terran can use comsat (sry forgot the name) to be able to run MULEs on 2 bases, allowing them to build a teched up army more easily
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What is if the queeen requirement was 2 hatches, instead of 1. Or maybe even 3?
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IMO one way that Blizzard could balance out 1-hatch queen play vs 2-hatch play would be to move roaches to tier 1, allowing zerg to defend its nat from early game toss/terran pressure.
If we tweak and balance out the Queen and Roach abilities, the zerg player could be left with an interesting choice: should I go pool first or hatch/roach den first?
Also that could be a way to diversify ZvZ: imagine agressive 1-hatch queen w/ lings/mutas versus defensive 2-hatch roaches/hydras.
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The simplest thing would be changing Spawn Larva to a 50 or 75 energy instead of 25 (maybe changing the Spawn time to 40 sec. instead of 20 sec.)
This might also help make the other abilities more attractive
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On September 05 2009 17:05 Fontong wrote:Show nested quote +On September 05 2009 11:42 fanatacist wrote:
It is surprising how some people could be so stupid. whoa thought you were superjongman admittedly i got excited...
-_-;
Not excited about me posting? F uuuuuuu
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To the people who went and played:
After reading the thread, it seems like it's more or less agreed that Zerg controls early game. However, it also seems to be an agreement that T2 Zerg isn't all that great. Would there ever be a point at which once the T/P player reached T2 that they would be able to move out and take back the advantage the Queen gave? Or is Z too far ahead at that point for that to happen? Is it possible that once a strategy (if one exists) to get around the advantage the queen gives, that Z won't have a strong enough economy to stay ahead in T2, and would fall behind?
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The problem is that Zerg can stay at T1 and use the advantage that Queens give long-term and ultimately overrun even higher tier units from enemies simply because of the army regeneration rate and the fact that sticking to T1 units means you will never be low on gas, and thus can get dual upgrades, further cementing your advantage. The problem with letting the Zerg sit as you turtle and tech to T2 is that the Queen advantage compounds, especially when Zerg can just inject larvae nonstop without having to worry about pressuring you or receiving pressure. Zerg will outexpand you, then outproduce you, and if you choose to go for an economic advantage, Zerg will counter that by injecting larva and massing drones. Zerg is simply better at making armies, bolstering eco, etc. etc. because of this one mechanic.
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Hot_Bid, zatic, Chill:
Did you guys get the impression that it takes 8 lings to kill one zealot in SC2? That's what the guy who wrote the gamereplays article thinks, and Psyonic_Reaver seconds that opinion- and this does not assume advantageous positioning for the zealot or the zealot being one attack upgrade ahead of the zerglings' armor upgrades; just a straight fight between a bunch of lings vs. 1 zealot in open ground, no upgrades for either side.
I found it very difficult to believe this, so I'd love to hear your impressions on this issue.
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Braavos36402 Posts
I didn't notice the zergling/zealot ratio being any different than BW. In fact I think its easier for Z since the lings surround much better.
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From my experience, one zealot does not pose more of a threat than it did in SC1. 4 lings should be sufficient to kill 1 zeal. And like Hot_Bid said, with surround, when there are higher amount of zealots against proportionally greater zerglings, the zealots less effective than they were in SC1 in the hands of a complete amateur.
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Did any of you guys try using the nullifiers? they do great damage to lings and they can create walls. Which is really important when going FE or just fighting swarms of lings in general.
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Nullifiers are interesting but I found that I couldn't get them fast enough when FEing (if I go forge nexus gate) to withstand any real ling pressure, and dras would still be a nuisance.
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On September 04 2009 11:38 Manifesto7 wrote:Show nested quote +Sometimes the ridiculousness you guys post makes it into my inbox and then I just have to respond.p Yeah, way to endear yourself to the community right off the bat. Your entire post is belittling, full of exageration, and the TL post openly admitted it was nothing but a couple days experimentation. I didn't see anything methodical about your column, it was just one mans subjective opinion with little context as to how you drew your conclusions. You are one guy who has played 60 hours. TL is made up of a dozen staff members who have been to all three blizzcons, two WWIs, and all the Blizzard invite events at Irvine. They also worked as a team at Blizzcon, rather than playing WoW scrubs by themselves. If you are new here, you should show the same manner a TL staff member would show on your site. And LoA, why does SCL seem to get so defensive with TL lately when all we have done is help you (promoting CGI, getting PP done). I don't think anyone worthwhile believes some bnet forum retard represents your site. Nobody here said anything bad about your site. edit - and www.starcraft2forum guy, I think people were talking about the gamereplays article, not yours. But go ahead and get defensive anyway.
I can only hope to aspire to your sophistication when dealing with posts like this....
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Realy sad if Zerg loses his natural mass/fast expand attitude.
They are zerg...
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EPT
