EPT[SC2] Zerg & Larvae Injection - Page 17
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IntoTheWow
is awesome32274 Posts
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Zato-1
Chile4253 Posts
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ProoM
Lithuania1741 Posts
On September 04 2009 18:50 Cheerio wrote: Guys come on. Ok 1,5 hatch now costs 150 minerals (- 2 supply + many other bonuses. Actually it may be considered even free of charge. You can build an early goon which cannot leave your base but does not cost gas and requires only pool tech. Wouldn't you pay 150 minerals for it in SC just to get rid of a scouter? I would. And the 1,5 hatch is just a bonus. Niiice). Doesn't anyone smell imballance? It will be fixed so fast I don't see the point of spending so much time to dabate over this point. P.S. There are crucial factors that keep SC balanced. In SC2 THEY SHOULD NOT BE ALTERED HEAVILY. They have proven to be correct by the years of progaming. Is larva spawn rate a crucial factor? Yes. How badly was it increased? More than doubled. What did you expect really? What will happen if in SC you will increase larva spawn rate 2 times? Will you wonder how to stop tier 1 all-ins from zerg? Lets look at the other side of Queen. Queen is extremely slow on non-creep ground, so basically it can't help you on your attacks. Also Queen is not a hatchery, you cant compare them. Yes, you can get 1.5x larvae, but then you cant secure the expansion and the drones mine slower if they are all in 1 base. Also, everything you gonna make out of larvae's is gonna cost minerals AND supply whereas photon charge doesn't require it. I think it's balanced pretty good, the only thing now is to figure out for other races, what counters this kind of 1 base play. What about scouting, if you scout and see he hasn't got expo in his nat, it's 1 hatch queen play. What about denying scouting, as protoss you can get 2 zealots and block your ramp. Those zealots will also be used in attacks while queen wont. As terran you can deny scouting by walling even easier (smaller building gaps) which is absolutely free. I think it's all balanced pretty well and when sc2 will be released, we will see some strategies which can be played against 1 hatch queen for sure. No worries for now ;]. 1 Hatch queen in SC2 kinda reminds me 2 gate toss PvZ in SC:BW. Possible early aggression with scouting denying, with possible early expanding(10/12 gates mostly leads to early expanding). What I'm saying, the direct counter may not exist, but using certain builds can get you the advantage over 1 hatch queen play. | ||
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WWJDD
India342 Posts
Does anybody know why what Joneagle mentioned does not counter Hot_Bid's build? I haven't seen anyone address that. | ||
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Teejing
Germany1360 Posts
The way i see it is: - queens extra drones are grant a better eco-advantage than obelisk/mule at start, but beome worse, because of oversaturation - when queen produces no more workers, it becomes a 1,5 hatch, which can be compared to 2 gateways > 300min The way i see it that, because of the queen the zerg player starts with the best economy, but falls behind as the game progresses, because of possible oversaturation. So far so fair, but the queen, after providing early eco advantage over T and P, transmutes into 2 free gateways, worth 300min. The Zerg starts with a lead vs P and T in exchange for crappy economy efficiency. Around t2 you need 1 extra base and around t3 2 extra bases to match P/T mining efficiency. Still, if you bunker too much t1, zerg expands over the map > you lose If you dont bunker enough you just die early on. Looks like if you just bunker enough to defend you should be in the lead since mining efficiency should push you ahead from this point on. Regarding scouting, if you can just scout if zerg is expanding, this should be enough until you get comsat/sair, because as long as z is on 1 base like you, you just need to survive until mule/obelisk kick in. Ofc if zerg i super agressive, you will want to not have a greedy build, like against 4 pool in bw. just my 2 cents | ||
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SirKyleAziz
Canada1 Post
Maybe you guys needed to do ____. Who knows right? Who can really say until we all are playing. | ||
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TheBigOne
Canada8 Posts
On September 05 2009 06:45 WWJDD wrote: BTW, Does anybody know why what Joneagle mentioned does not counter Hot_Bid's build? I haven't seen anyone address that. I would love to know why too. Too bad, all hell broke lose with Jon and the admins as they can't keep a civil discussion. From what I have seen, Jon degraded TL and the admins didn't appreciate his actions. Afterwords, I believe Jon calmed down and started discussing the mechanics but everyone else including the admins were calling Jon a noob and doesn't know any RTS background. Based from what I read, both Hot_Bid and Jon have their views. I don't think neither is better then the other. It's why I don't understand why everyone was calling Jon a noob. Jon has no rights coming in here degrading TL like that. As admins, I think it's unprofessional to go into a flame war when some trolls are coming in here looking for a fight.Resort to calling others a noob just makes the flavor of this forum extremely unprofessional and unreadable when SC2 fans like me are coming here to read up info. Either BAN his ass or give him a warning about his behavior. No need to start up a huge flame war. | ||
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mutantmagnet
United States3789 Posts
I really appreciate the work you put into your article Hotbid but there was one thing missing from the article that makes it from being a good one. You explained what you did but barely explained what your opponents did once they've experienced your usage of the Queen. I was hoping towards the end you or somone would insert a minireport giving a basic gist of the timings used but it wasn't there. I could tell you had some difficulty with Terran but I could never tell if they went Orbital Command for the Mule econ advantage or the Planetary Fortress for the high scv/low army econ advantage. From the way people generally talk about the PF on the internet I know most don't recognize it as an econ improvement building like the OC is but I was hoping you at least attempted to use it because what had you to lose after trying a dozen OC timings. I expect PFs to die easily to zerg/baneling swarms, yet I have a hard time believing your mass hydras would break PFs when so many reviews for awhile stated mass zealots and stalkers died to them (and hydras aren't that much different from Stalkers when it comes to taking down buildings). If you didn't test PF that might've been the type of thing that creates a coin toss uncertainty in your build since you implied mass zerglings have trouble with walled in Terran in general. | ||
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Cheerio
Ukraine3178 Posts
On September 05 2009 06:36 ProoM wrote: Lets look at the other side of Queen. Queen is extremely slow on non-creep ground, so basically it can't help you on your attacks. Don't think of it as a unit, think of it as a defensive structure which can move in your base shoot both air and ground and has other usefull abilities even if you take spawn larva out. It costs 150 minerals even without spawn larva ability. On September 05 2009 06:36 ProoM wrote: Also Queen is not a hatchery, you cant compare them. Yes, you can get 1.5x larvae, but then you cant secure the expansion and the drones mine slower if they are all in 1 base. Yes you can't load gathered resourses into a queen but how many hatches do you need for that in SC? Only a few. All the others are for larva. Consider the queen as a substitute for those others. It does make it a little bit less valueble compared to hatches but only a little. On September 05 2009 06:36 ProoM wrote: What about scouting, if you scout and see he hasn't got expo in his nat, it's 1 hatch queen play. Is this all the information you need from scouting? How many bases your opponent is on? On September 05 2009 06:36 ProoM wrote: What about denying scouting, as protoss you can get 2 zealots and block your ramp. 2 zealots denying a zerg scouting... What??? On September 05 2009 06:36 ProoM wrote: I think it's all balanced pretty well and when sc2 will be released, we will see some strategies which can be played against 1 hatch queen for sure. No worries for now ;]. This is a perfect argument against imballance worries, you can use it against anything at all. | ||
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DefMatrixUltra
Canada1992 Posts
On September 05 2009 07:54 TheBigOne wrote: I would love to know why too. Too bad, all hell broke lose with Jon and the admins as they can't keep a civil discussion. [1] From what I have seen, Jon degraded TL and the admins didn't appreciate his actions. Afterwords, I believe Jon calmed down and started discussing the mechanics but everyone else including the admins were calling Jon a noob and doesn't know any RTS background. [2] Based from what I read, both Hot_Bid and Jon have their views. I don't think neither is better then the other. It's why I don't understand why everyone was calling Jon a noob. [3] Jon has no rights coming in here degrading TL like that. As admins, I think it's unprofessional to go into a flame war when some trolls are coming in here looking for a fight. [4] Resort to calling others a noob just makes the flavor of this forum extremely unprofessional and unreadable when SC2 fans like me are coming here to read up info. Either BAN his ass or give him a warning about his behavior. No need to start up a huge flame war. [5] [1] It's a bit difficult to keep a civil discussion with someone so defensive. Every argument (civil or not) against his position is taken as a personal attack on him. It can be clearly seen from his posts. [2] It's pretty apparent that the guy is short on knowledge about RTS. To answer WWJDD's question (which was already actually answered earlier), Jon's 'counter' was to wall-in hardcore at his base, tech up to something meaningful, and then somehow not have a ridiculous economic disadvantage. If you sit in your base and turtle against a Zerg that is capable of quad speed larva production per hatchery, you might as well just concede the game at the beginning. [3] Jon's knowledge is just not as extensive as Hot_Bid's or many other TL staff on the subject. He speaks in general concepts which do not necessarily apply in practice. A build in something like Starcraft goes far beyond general concepts. His argument that scouting will somehow be easier is just plain wrong. Two zerglings will shut down any scout in a matter of seconds with the speed increase on creep. Trying to scout with a worker is basically like wasting 50 minerals + mining time. It's the creep and improved pathing that makes it difficult - that is what Hot_Bid is trying to say. Also, he's said some pretty silly stuff. Particularly his comment on unit counters. "You use this unit, I use that unit. Not because of numbers, but because of my instinct from playing so many hours of Starcraft 2." That is a very naive view of unit counters. First off, the numerical aspect of it is more useful than experience from playtime. It's not like the numbers are hidden. They are clearly there. What really comes into play with unit countering is timing, timing, and more timing. [4] These guys are not suits in charge of an operation. They consider it their personal website, and they've done a hell of a job. Being professional has nothing to do with it. [5] I think it's perfectly valid to call out someone on their lack of knowledge, especially if you are intending to have a meaningful discussion. In fact, the 'flaming' that's going on is informative to other people that lack knowledge as well. --- I honestly feel for this guy. He wrote up something that he obviously cares about on his website, and he feels that someone disagreed with him and in a rude manner. I might respond to something like that too. But the fact is, no one was referring to him at all in the first place. Also, you can't take everything so personally and lash out and attack others just for having a different viewpoint. If he really thinks the community is made of nothing but trolls, he should show some class and not respond to them. He should just address the points here as intelligently as he can and shrug off the responses of those he considers trolls. I think this discussion is completely noteworthy, and I wish more people had something to say other than automatically agreeing with one side or the other. Surely there are some guys out there with their own home-baked opinions that could give more insight than what's already been given. | ||
zatic
Zurich15325 Posts
On September 05 2009 06:45 WWJDD wrote: BTW, does anybody know why what Joneagle mentioned does not counter Hot_Bid's build? I haven't seen anyone address that. He mentioned a lot of things. What specifically? On September 05 2009 07:54 TheBigOne wrote: I would love to know why too. Too bad, all hell broke lose with Jon and the admins as they can't keep a civil discussion. [... ] but everyone else including the admins were calling Jon a noob and doesn't know any RTS background. Based from what I read, both Hot_Bid and Jon have their views. I don't think neither is better then the other. It's why I don't understand why everyone was calling Jon a noob. Read his first post. Why would anyone want to start a civil discussion after this? You will notice as soon as he slowed down everyone else did too. Oh why am I even typing, thanks DefMatrixUltra that answers everything. | ||
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TheBigOne
Canada8 Posts
You do bring up a lot of good points. Very indepth and well put. However, I personally just don't see the need of flaming someone that is just coming over here looking for trouble. Why steep to their level? I personally just hate watching two sides of people ranting over each others idea calling them noobs and not knowing what they are talking about especially when it's an admin that represents the website. If the other person wants to come over here looking for trouble, BAN HIS ASS. Steeping down to their level just makes the community in a whole looks worse. Hot_Bid was actually very professional when handling this situation. But not so much with the others as they let their emotions got in their way which quite frankly, I would have understood since Joneagle was the one coming over here degrading the TL community in the first place. Joneagle and Hot_Bid actually has a civil argument going along later on but the other admins started to intervene. Little did I know, just when Joneagle was answering questions that people were asking, he was banned. Personally, I think he should have been banned long before all the flame war started off. But hey, what do I know? I actually like this community a lot as a whole. Lots of wonderful info about SC2 and SC1. When I came to this forum, I just came to read good reports like Hot_Bids. Not to see flame wars especially with admins involved in them. I know that I have no rights to rant about the admins and it is their website and they can do whatever they want. But I'm sure that there are alot of people out that that are like me, who doesn't post much or doesn't even have an account, and browse TL everyday. And I'm sure a majority of them doesn't like to see a bunch of flame wars going on in a extremely good report like this one. Just my 2 cents. | ||
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eshlow
United States5210 Posts
On September 05 2009 06:45 WWJDD wrote: BTW, Does anybody know why what Joneagle mentioned does not counter Hot_Bid's build? I haven't seen anyone address that. If you read the whole thread you would see why. They already went over stuff like that. I'll answer it again below if you're still wondering. On September 05 2009 07:13 Teejing wrote: Love the drama! The way i see it is: - queens extra drones are grant a better eco-advantage than obelisk/mule at start, but beome worse, because of oversaturation - when queen produces no more workers, it becomes a 1,5 hatch, which can be compared to 2 gateways > 300min The way i see it that, because of the queen the zerg player starts with the best economy, but falls behind as the game progresses, because of possible oversaturation. So far so fair, but the queen, after providing early eco advantage over T and P, transmutes into 2 free gateways, worth 300min. The Zerg starts with a lead vs P and T in exchange for crappy economy efficiency. Around t2 you need 1 extra base and around t3 2 extra bases to match P/T mining efficiency. Still, if you bunker too much t1, zerg expands over the map > you lose If you dont bunker enough you just die early on. Looks like if you just bunker enough to defend you should be in the lead since mining efficiency should push you ahead from this point on. Regarding scouting, if you can just scout if zerg is expanding, this should be enough until you get comsat/sair, because as long as z is on 1 base like you, you just need to survive until mule/obelisk kick in. Ofc if zerg i super agressive, you will want to not have a greedy build, like against 4 pool in bw. just my 2 cents No. Remember, it's compounding interest. Terran and Protoss are stuck with producing 1 worker a time. Zerg, with a 1.5 hatches at 1/2 of the price essentially gets a HUGE increase in production early instead of having to lay down more hatches. Someone already calculated it out to about 9 extra larva by the time 12 hatch would normally pop. So you have 9 extra drones (or military units) early game before you would normally get a 2nd hatch in BW. Yes, you have to pay for these units, but remember you have extra minerals from NOT putting down a second hatch PLUS you have the extra mining of drones everytime you invest. It's compounding. Do you see why now this is imbalanced? Before supersaturation of your main you can plop down an extra couple hatches in expos. If terran/toss is 1base tech/turtle such as what joneagle is suggesting they lose map control and end up at a huge economic disadvantage. If they fast expand, they will get crippled by early game zerg supersaturated mineral line doing a hydra/ling all in before any of their macro mechanics can kick in. Since they can't scout well what the zerg is doing (producing workers or military units), it's very difficult to know exactly what the zerg is doing and how to respond. Hence, the coinflip prediction of getting it correct. You guys need to read the whole thread. All of these points have been addressed before I'm just repeating what others have said. | ||
Manifesto7
Osaka27139 Posts
On September 05 2009 07:54 TheBigOne wrote: I would love to know why too. Too bad, all hell broke lose with Jon and the admins as they can't keep a civil discussion. From what I have seen, Jon degraded TL and the admins didn't appreciate his actions. Afterwords, I believe Jon calmed down and started discussing the mechanics but everyone else including the admins were calling Jon a noob and doesn't know any RTS background. Based from what I read, both Hot_Bid and Jon have their views. I don't think neither is better then the other. It's why I don't understand why everyone was calling Jon a noob. Jon has no rights coming in here degrading TL like that. As admins, I think it's unprofessional to go into a flame war when some trolls are coming in here looking for a fight.Resort to calling others a noob just makes the flavor of this forum extremely unprofessional and unreadable when SC2 fans like me are coming here to read up info. Either BAN his ass or give him a warning about his behavior. No need to start up a huge flame war. No offense buddy, but did you read the thread? This is the second time this guy has come onto our site and been a dick. In addition, he also badmouths TL on his on site repeatedly. After he came in with his condescending essay I gave him a pretty clear warning to not be a dick. There is a certain way to behave when you are a guest. He continued to be a dick, and only at that point did I flame him. Pretty mildly too. People throw around the word unprofessional, well guess what, this isn't a business. This site is a group of like-minded friends who like to sit around online and shoot the shit about starcraft. Until we start drawing a paycheck, it is going to stay that way. Our friend Jon wouldn't walk into a real life conversation swinging his dick like that and pissing people off, so I am not sure why he thinks it is ok to do here. Admins help maintain this site, but we are also members of the community as well. We are not soulless emotionless robots. TL would be a worse place if we were. Sorry if you don't like it. If you want to see what happens to forums that are run like a business, check out the battle.net forums and all their outstanding qualities. If you want a forum which is built around a society, then you go to TL. | ||
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heyitsme
153 Posts
On September 05 2009 08:01 mutantmagnet wrote:I expect PFs to die easily to zerg/baneling swarms, yet I have a hard time believing your mass hydras would break PFs when so many reviews for awhile stated mass zealots and stalkers died to them (and hydras aren't that much different from Stalkers when it comes to taking down buildings). If you didn't test PF that might've been the type of thing that creates a coin toss uncertainty in your build since you implied mass zerglings have trouble with walled in Terran in general. yea I would also like to know if you guys tried some sort of PF fast expand build | ||
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fanatacist
10319 Posts
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Avidkeystamper
United States8552 Posts
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Kennigit
Canada19447 Posts
On September 05 2009 11:40 heyitsme wrote: yea I would also like to know if you guys tried some sort of PF fast expand build Yes, we tried over and over and over. I know you are reading articles on other sites where people say it's no problem to pylon forge....if you play games vs scrubs who make 5 spawning pools and complain that theres no button to make zerglings then yes you can fe pretty easily. At least with us you have some gauge of where we are coming from as players - my biggest gripe is someone saying they dont even play starcraft but have successfully mastered some build or counter to what was being demonstrated in this article. | ||
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wwsmks
United States2 Posts
My under standing of it is that the other race do not have the ability to properly scout out what the opposing Zerg is doing with their extra larva or have an effective way of getting rid of the queen. So i was wondering if making the creep speed bonus a upgrade would help solve this. | ||
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Fontong
United States6454 Posts
On September 05 2009 11:42 fanatacist wrote: It is surprising how some people could be so stupid. whoa thought you were superjongman admittedly i got excited... | ||
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