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I thought the proton charge was a ton easier to use than the larvae mechanic. You could use it with a simple click and walk away. The Zerg you've got to plan ahead (takes about 30-40 seconds for your mutant larvae to mature, I think), decide what you're going to build, and then make a choice.
Your economic macro is effectively tied to your production. You have to do one or the other. Meanwhile the proton charge is totally separate from production for the Protoss (and it has defensive abilities since it acts as a shield battery).
The MULE is simple and effective. I don't really see an advantage here over the Protoss though except that the MULE is free in supply and only costs energy. Again, I feel like it's an attempt to catch up to the Protoss' ability. The call down is easy and with one Orbital Command you can call down MULEs to any of your expansions. You can probably afford to bring in My preference was to expand using liftoff and loading 5 SCVs to a protected natural and then make that CC into a planetary fortress (takes quite a commitment by the opponent to take one down) and then use my Orbital Command to bring in MULEs as needed.
Oh and the OC's ability to call in extra supplies is fun too.
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i think you're totally missing the point of this article. i dont know how high the proton charge is in the tech tree but when you are starting out a zerg who can hatch 5 drones at a time while you are stuck making one probe at a time the definitely holds the economic advantage.
when you get beyond that yes a fully saturated mineral line of probes + dark pylon may have larger returns but that would be much later in the game which opens up another can of worms.
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Why was he banned when he was giving pertinent SC2 information and not fighting people anymore?
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Calgary25998 Posts
There's more to it, but basically it works like this:
The Mule is good at the start because it isn't affect by worker numbers.
Proton Charge is good later because its affect gets larger with more workers.
Inject Larvae is the best because it can be used for both workers and production.
It's a bigger issue than that, but that's the gist of it. You can't "compare" them directly. It's like comparing hatcheries to gateways, which one is better? Well, it's not exactly like that because in this case the queen is just better. lol >_<
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Kennigit
Canada19447 Posts
On September 04 2009 14:25 Archerofaiur wrote:
Why was he banned when he was giving pertinent SC2 information and not fighting people anymore?
15/17 posts over the course of his life cycle were some kind of attack or defense about his site or something we wrote. Disagreeing without any backing, admits he doesn't play SC and justifies opinion with the number of hours he has played....would you like information from bnet pubs? Plenty of people around here who played the blizzcon build. Ill make hotbid answer you when he wakes up.
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SC sounds like it may be too complicated for the average player?
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Braavos36399 Posts
On September 04 2009 14:14 milikan wrote:
I would like to inject my own opinion into this argument here. Not about SC2, but about personal conduct on forums.
Even if someone comes here and badmouths everyone associated with TL, I believe that, if no one else, the admins should remain civil towards him. They represent the site, and I think while it may be perfectly justifiable to counter attack a hostile poster, it would be way more mature to be nice towards him. If he continues to be an ass, warn him, then ban him. I don't really enjoy seeing the TL admins getting personal towards this guy; it makes them look bad, and gives this thread a rather childish flavor. Also, it would make relations with other sites easier, and just in general make everyone's life easier.
In other words: LESS QQ PLZ.
I really don't see what I posted in this thread that made me look bad and childish, but I guess that's just your opinion. I know this is the internet but you don't go onto a forum and act like a condescending asshole by insulting everyone and the site.
On September 04 2009 14:25 Archerofaiur wrote:
Why was he banned when he was giving pertinent SC2 information and not fighting people anymore?
Its a tough judgment call on the ban. On the one hand we were having a discussion, on the other hand we don't tolerate people coming into "our house" and just blanket insulting everyone. Frankly he should've been banned for the first one or two posts but we felt that the thread probably would benefit more from discussion with him, despite the frustration.
Providing SC2 information != free pass to be an asshole.
Chill answered your question about comparing mechanics -- I'd like to add that we aren't sure of the exact numbers of how they compare, but its clear that the Zerg one is the most flexible in that you can make units with the extra larvae not just workers.
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On September 04 2009 04:14 Hot_Bid wrote:
Everyone needs to calm down with the overreactions to Blizzard not knowing whats going on or making an imbalanced game.
First, they probably are better than we are at playing this game. Second, they probably know exactly whats going on. If its imbalanced, they'll fix it. If it's not, then our first impressions were simply wrong. Remember, we didn't play that many games.
Ultimately, we really shouldn't react so wildly to just a few people's opinions.
i really like how you handle this topic, great work as always. Also thanks for answering to my DT theory, altough i had another one, with 1 base mass zela (+possibly macro boost trick if it's accecible)
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On September 04 2009 15:03 Hot_Bid wrote:
Chill answered your question about comparing mechanics -- I'd like to add that we aren't sure of the exact numbers of how they compare, but its clear that the Zerg one is the most flexible in that you can make units with the extra larvae not just workers.
Thanks for the responce. Just to clarify. You were playing against Protoss players using Proton Charge constantly and correctly? And the extra minerals was still not enough to keep up with spawn larva?
We just want to be sure that zerg wasnt out producing everyone because Protoss wasnt using their own macro mechaincs.
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Awesome thread, lolz at the thread drama later in, love reading the impressions, thoughts on the current build etc.
Stupid question, but will there be another blizzcon thread about the other races/general mechanics, perhaps not as indepth as this current one, but one all the same, or was the primary focus of most of the TL guys who went the zerg.
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Zurich15365 Posts
On September 04 2009 15:51 Archerofaiur wrote:Show nested quote +On September 04 2009 15:03 Hot_Bid wrote:
Chill answered your question about comparing mechanics -- I'd like to add that we aren't sure of the exact numbers of how they compare, but its clear that the Zerg one is the most flexible in that you can make units with the extra larvae not just workers. Thanks for the responce. Just to clarify. You were playing against Protoss players using Proton Charge constantly and correctly? And the extra minerals was still not enough to keep up with spawn larva? We just want to be sure that zerg wasnt out producing everyone because Protoss wasnt using their own macro mechaincs.
A lot of us played P and T as well and yes of course we were using their macro mechanics. We had a lot of TvZ and PvZ games where we painfully tried to play as cleanly as possible, but it was incredibly hard to match Zerg production. As HotBid wrote towards the end of the second day we specifically tried to figure out the 1hatch queen builds trying different T and P builds with different macro mechanic timings.
On September 04 2009 16:16 Wedge wrote:
Stupid question, but will there be another blizzcon thread about the other races/general mechanics, perhaps not as indepth as this current one, but one all the same, or was the primary focus of most of the TL guys who went the zerg.
Yes we will be releasing more stuff no worries. We were just kind of forced to deal with Zerg so much due to HotBid raping our asses with 1hatch builds :-)
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lolol i didn't even get an obelisk the game i won PvZ...
the way i see it, 1-hatch hydra all-in is in many ways similar to 4 pool in sc when the game first came out. sure basically the only way to defend against it without really being good at the game is 6gate or 6rax. blizzard had to make the spawning pool 200 (and even now a 5 pool from a good zerg is difficult to play against)
in this case though, a number of factors did conspire to make 1-hatch hydra really effective:
- queen means being able to pump off 1 hatch
- creep speed bonus means shutting down scouting early
- small map size and rush distances (and backdoors) of blizzcon maps makes all-in much more effective
- hydras being massively buffed (from 10/7.5/5 dmg to heavy/medium/light to 12/8 dmg to armored/light) makes them so much more powerful
I don't think 1-hatch hydra is unbeatable, but it's maybe something that requires balancing
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Guys come on. Ok 1,5 hatch now costs 150 minerals (- 2 supply + many other bonuses. Actually it may be considered even free of charge. You can build an early goon which cannot leave your base but does not cost gas and requires only pool tech. Wouldn't you pay 150 minerals for it in SC just to get rid of a scouter? I would. And the 1,5 hatch is just a bonus. Niiice). Doesn't anyone smell imballance? It will be fixed so fast I don't see the point of spending so much time to dabate over this point.
P.S. There are crucial factors that keep SC balanced. In SC2 THEY SHOULD NOT BE ALTERED HEAVILY. They have proven to be correct by the years of progaming. Is larva spawn rate a crucial factor? Yes. How badly was it increased? More than doubled. What did you expect really? What will happen if in SC you will increase larva spawn rate 2 times? Will you wonder how to stop tier 1 all-ins from zerg?
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Yeah more lavae makes the timing window of PvZ and TvZ more narrow to grasp since the swing can be more dramatic...
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ZERG POWARH! 
Can't wait to play this game and have my n00b skills transform into deadly 1 hatch 1 queen slaughter games 
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On September 04 2009 13:21 Archerofaiur wrote:Whoa whoa guys guys guys guys calm down. Seriously we dont need this kind of interwebsite conflict. Its not good for the game, its not good for the respective websites and most importantly its not good for the fans. Seriously lets please try and keep this as non-personal as possible and just discuss the issues. I think the crux of the issue is this Show nested quote +On September 04 2009 11:03 Joneagle_X wrote:
As far as macro is concerned (and to refute the idea that a 1-Hatch Zergling build is somehow "invincible") the race with the most powerful macro element is Protoss. The new Obelisk ability is absolutely ridiculous. Even utilizing the Queen's larvae ability, it's still a challenge for the Zerg to keep up economically. I think this is a fundamental mistake made in this article. HotBid failed to take into account the fact that while the Zerg has the option to either produce extra units or opt for saturation of their expansions, the Protoss also has the ability to mass produce these same tier 1 units. It's likely that HotBid's opponents weren't utilizing this mechanic to its full potential. The question of how the Obelisk compares with the queen has been brought up multiple times but not really addressed. Hot Bid, Did anyone compare Spawn Larva with Proton Charge?
no way thread got like 10x better when that guy starting posting crap and hotbid/manifesto started refuting him lol
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Kennigit
Canada19447 Posts
Unbanned Joneagle_X. Thank German Security Council Veto.
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On September 05 2009 00:09 Kennigit wrote:
Unbanned Joneagle_X. Thank German Security Council Veto.
wtf?? how did that happen oO
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So it sounds like the best thing for protoss to do against Zerg 1 hatch is go on the defensive till Proton Charge ramps up. Making additional obelisks for shield/energy recharge should help you hold key positions.
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Cool article. I really like how you experimented with a specific build in testing. I think that's the best way of testing with the time that you had. Hopefully your results are of use to Blizzard for tweaking if nothing else.
I'm not going to join the debate about bashing SC sites except to say stop it. It isn't helpful when someone with a couple posts says, "Stop bashing other SC sites, TL. You guys are dicks." That post itself generalizes the members of TL, makes us take offence, and reciprocate dislike for that website. It also happens the other way around. We all need to remember that lone posters are not representitives of the website, and most likely not staff, so don't generalize.
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EPT
