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I do think it's funny that we disagree on the Queen but I think it's because you're assuming I'm just giving the Queen an overall "D."
The grade I gave her is based on her change from the previous build. I'm rating the change in the Queen from one build to the other as a "D."
Does that make sense?
And I'm mostly hostile because I have to expect that I'm not going to receive a response that is genuine and isn't simply bashing. That's all I've ever experienced on here. I read quite a bit of the posts here and I find some of the posts to be almost as tasteless as those on the Battle.net forums.
Refreshing to find someone who wants to discuss the game and not just bash someone else's view.
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Osaka27177 Posts
On September 04 2009 12:16 Joneagle_X wrote:Show nested quote +On September 04 2009 12:07 Manifesto7 wrote:
Apparently this is the SC2 superduperfunsite admin build order.
- Insult an entire website by telling them they are drooling over players who are very good at a game they enjoy.
- Come back 5 months later because you think someone was talking about your column, but no one was.
- Call everyone ridiculous and unprofessional.
- Compare 60 hours of game play by one person to hundreds by many as being superior.
- Then try to make a point about the game and a column, now that you have pissed everyone off.
- Get run over by 1 hatch hydras.
Sound accurate? Because I don't act like this.
o rly?
Who could possibly not like drooling over Korean pros all day?
Jon from SC2Forums.org. I'm the guy whom HotBid "made look like he knows nothing." Sometimes the ridiculousness you guys post makes it into my inbox and then I just have to respond.
(nobody was talking about it)
Sometimes the ridiculousness you guys post makes it into my inbox and then I just have to respond...
...You may act professionally. However, the "teams" you send to these events for the most part do not meet that requirement.
There is no exaggeration, and I have also attended those same events. Except in my case the same staff attended all the events instead of the smattering of representatives from TL...
...And in contrast to HotBid's two days (maximum 20 hours) of playtime I've logged almost 60 hours on StarCraft 2...
If you have an issue with constructive criticism and discussion of articles posted by your staff members then I would suggest you not allow posts based on "experimentation" to be written.
Yes, because experimentation is bad. And... your criticism was constructive. I'll refer back to the "ridiculous" and "laughable" adjectives you used.
All that is left is for you to lose a game. 1v1 iccup right now?
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Braavos36402 Posts
On September 04 2009 12:50 Joneagle_X wrote:
Let's agree to disagree on the fundamentals of reviewing the game.
I've tried the micromanagement style of the review and it just doesn't work. The build changes so often and you have so little time that it's really difficult to understand an issue in depth. It's inevitable that you're going to miss something if you're not looking higher up the tier.
This supports my point that assessing builds past Tier 2 is too complex, and supports the idea that doing a review that has a few sentences on every unit is basically useless aside from aesthetic stuff like hit points and damage. There just isn't enough time to fully test what builds are viable.
I disagree with it being any more difficult to scout in SC2. I agree that Zerg can easily change from drones to troops in a flash but I don't think that makes them any more dangerous than they were in BW.
Have you ever played competitive Brood War? Because its far, far, far easier to keep your scouting worker alive in BW than in SC2. How can you possibly say that scouting "isn't more difficult in SC2" when Zerg has an early game ranged unit and the pathing AI is like 3x better? The difference is huge.
In fact I feel they might have to be less aggressive because of the achille's heel that the Queen represents. Take her out and the entire Zerg macro is crippled. Unless they have another they're in really deep trouble. Especially when they're trying a 1-Hatch build like you're suggesting. In addition she's incredibly easy to kill which only makes this worse.
The Queen is NOT incredibly easy to kill. I don't know what else to say about this other than if you can walk into a Zerg base with Zealots or Marines and snipe a Queen you are playing a horrible Zerg player. There's no way with overlords and 2 early lings will you get close enough to a Zerg base to snipe a Queen early in the game without the Zerg being fully prepared for you.
Also, how can you say that extra larvae doesn't make Zerg more dangerous? Choosing to make units or workers together was the strength of Zerg macro in BW -- you weren't sure what the Z was doing. In SC2 you know even less because your scout dies fast and they have more larvae to exponentially increase their eco or army early game. What conclusion can you draw from that other than that it makes early game all-ins / eco powering more dangerous?
The bottom line is that clearly scouting has become imperative to the player in StarCraft 2. However, I don't think it's going to be any tougher, just different. Perhaps scouting will just become a more aggressive affair than the simple suicide worker.
There's no basis to this statement, it's 100% conjecture and the opposite of how we believe things work in RTS games. It's not going to be tougher to scout!? It's just going to be "different and more aggressive than suiciding a worker?!"
That statement leads me to believe you really don't understand how scouting and adaptive builds work, and that you've never kept your scouting worker alive in an opponents base in BW for longer than 10 seconds after their Tier 1 units spawn.
Zerg having a ranged unit that can easily kill scouting workers plus better AI for chasing lings is absolutely huge.
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On September 04 2009 12:50 Joneagle_X wrote:
Let's agree to disagree on the fundamentals of reviewing the game.
I've tried the micromanagement style of the review and it just doesn't work. The build changes so often and you have so little time that it's really difficult to understand an issue in depth. It's inevitable that you're going to miss something if you're not looking higher up the tier.
I disagree with it being any more difficult to scout in SC2. I agree that Zerg can easily change from drones to troops in a flash but I don't think that makes them any more dangerous than they were in BW. In fact I feel they might have to be less aggressive because of the achille's heel that the Queen represents. Take her out and the entire Zerg macro is crippled. Unless they have another they're in really deep trouble. Especially when they're trying a 1-Hatch build like you're suggesting. In addition she's incredibly easy to kill which only makes this worse.
If you think about it it's also incredibly difficult to scout Terran. Marines + walling makes it incredibly hard to guess what they're going to do and with the addition of the Reaper and Viking you could make an argument that it's actually more dangerous to not know what the Terran is doing than the Zerg.
The bottom line is that clearly scouting has become imperative to the player in StarCraft 2. However, I don't think it's going to be any tougher, just different. Perhaps scouting will just become a more aggressive affair than the simple suicide worker.
i dont want to be a jerk and come out of no where but your posts reek like you have no idea what you're talking about. while sc2 is obviously a different game the mechanics of sc meta game remains largely intact. while you berate the 1 hatch queen build for being short sighted you present a terran turtle build complete with supply count that is a fancy version of "2 rax 1 base and then tech, leaving the zerg map control so i can die later".
saying things like "it's hard to scout the terran because he has a ramp with rines" is utterly ridiculous when even a D- player can tell you that sac'ing an ovie is the correct thing to do. as far as i know hydras do 10 normal damage in sc2 as opposed to 10 concussive damage in sc and though they are a tier higher in sc2 they will pretty much destroy rines for cost until medievac and given that you essentially start with 2 hatches with a queen you can reach tier two that much faster in sc2. though i wont go into this since i havent logged 60 hours like you.
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Braavos36402 Posts
On September 04 2009 12:57 Joneagle_X wrote:
I do think it's funny that we disagree on the Queen but I think it's because you're assuming I'm just giving the Queen an overall "D."
The grade I gave her is based on her change from the previous build. I'm rating the change in the Queen from one build to the other as a "D."
Does that make sense?
And I'm mostly hostile because I have to expect that I'm not going to receive a response that is genuine and isn't simply bashing. That's all I've ever experienced on here. I read quite a bit of the posts here and I find some of the posts to be almost as tasteless as those on the Battle.net forums.
Refreshing to find someone who wants to discuss the game and not just bash someone else's view.
Let me get this straight, you come to our forum, bad mouth everyone here, put the entire community down, and justify it because you "expected" us to act hostile?? And when someone posts civilly and that doesn't fit your idea that we're all "hostile flaming bashers" you give some ridiculous backhanded "compliment" and in your mind that somehow is an acceptable post?
I'm closer to banning you than continuing to discuss this with you.
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Osaka27177 Posts
On September 04 2009 12:57 Joneagle_X wrote:
And I'm mostly hostile because I have to expect that I'm not going to receive a response that is genuine and isn't simply bashing. That's all I've ever experienced on here.
You have insulted this site and its members every time you have posted here. And... you are surprised that people are hostile.
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Dude, the Queen only does 8 damage. Even though she's ranged she doesn't move very quickly. If you stay outside the Creep you can dodge her all day. And even if she does hit you a probe's shields will regenerate.
I was referring to your mid-game scouting in that you'd need to suicide a worker to get any useful information. Add in the queued commands and scouting isn't tough at all.
The last comment I'm going to make (this isn't going anywhere) is that the Queen is worth killing with any attack force. If you have some Zealots and you're pushing the attack that you described in your original article I'd go for her instead of workers. That would put the Zerg player back into the stone age.
@ Manifesto,
Like that will validate your behavior? I don't like to play SCBW anymore. Played last week and the older AI pathing just disgusts me. I'll gladly play you during SC2 beta.
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Osaka27177 Posts
Yeah, this isn't going anywhere. I was just trying to complete your sweet build order, but obviously you are too good at a game that isn't out to play the game that it is based upon.
edit - nvm, a lack of rts fundamentals means we are speaking a different language.
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Braavos36402 Posts
On September 04 2009 13:10 Joneagle_X wrote:
Dude, the Queen only does 8 damage. Even though she's ranged she doesn't move very quickly. If you stay outside the Creep you can dodge her all day. And even if she does hit you a probe's shields will regenerate.
You have clearly never ever tried to keep a probe alive in a Zerg base against lings (which spawn before the Q is out) and a Queen.
I was referring to your mid-game scouting in that you'd need to suicide a worker to get any useful information. Add in the queued commands and scouting isn't tough at all.
This is just wrong. You can't get a worker into the Zerg base once the first one dies. You thinking scouting "isn't tough at all" just shows how ignorant you are about it :/
The last comment I'm going to make (this isn't going anywhere) is that the Queen is worth killing with any attack force. If you have some Zealots and you're pushing the attack that you described in your original article I'd go for her instead of workers. That would put the Zerg player back into the stone age.
At what point in Tier 1 will you be able to move out with P or T units and get into the Zerg base without them being completely ready to kill that group? The idea of doing what you're suggesting is just ridiculous, it doesn't work in a normal game.
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Whoa whoa guys guys guys guys calm down. Seriously we dont need this kind of interwebsite conflict. Its not good for the game, its not good for the respective websites and most importantly its not good for the fans. Seriously lets please try and keep this as non-personal as possible and just discuss the issues. I think the crux of the issue is this
On September 04 2009 11:03 Joneagle_X wrote:
As far as macro is concerned (and to refute the idea that a 1-Hatch Zergling build is somehow "invincible") the race with the most powerful macro element is Protoss. The new Obelisk ability is absolutely ridiculous. Even utilizing the Queen's larvae ability, it's still a challenge for the Zerg to keep up economically. I think this is a fundamental mistake made in this article. HotBid failed to take into account the fact that while the Zerg has the option to either produce extra units or opt for saturation of their expansions, the Protoss also has the ability to mass produce these same tier 1 units. It's likely that HotBid's opponents weren't utilizing this mechanic to its full potential.
The question of how the Obelisk compares with the queen has been brought up multiple times but not really addressed.
Hot Bid, Did anyone compare Spawn Larva with Proton Charge?
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Braavos36402 Posts
For anyone reading this who is familiar with BW, imagine if Zerg had a ranged unit that can move on creep faster than workers can, and Zergling chase AI is vastly improved so you don't even have to micro to kill the worker, just a+move on it. Its hard enough to keep your worker alive in BW without these two additional aspects.
But hey its "not tough at all" for you, so we all must be missing something super special about the probe.
edit: Regardless Blizzard is probably going to tweak the macro concepts before Beta is out anyway so we're arguing uselessly anyway.
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Hot Bid, I respect you and your opinion but I cant tell if you just dont want to answer this question (which is ok just say so) or if you just havnt noticed it (I know your busy with Jon).
Did the Protoss players you played against use Proton Charge correctly? How much did it help them compared to Spawn Larva?
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United States12607 Posts
On September 04 2009 13:10 Joneagle_X wrote:
I don't like to play SCBW anymore. Played last week and the older AI pathing just disgusts me.
Oh man, you must really be dying for the SC2 beta.
Archerofaiur, I'm not sure where Hot_Bid is getting "personal"? You have to consider that he's fighting the uphill battle of trying to have a serious conversation with a guy who evidently has little idea what he is talking about.
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Kennigit
Canada19447 Posts
On September 04 2009 13:10 Joneagle_X wrote:
I don't like to play SCBW anymore. Played last week and the older AI pathing just disgusts me.
How can you possibly say this and then argue about comparissons between SC1/2 like whether scouting is easer?....why are you even in this thread? no one was talking about you..at all lol.
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to link his site and leech hits obv
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On September 04 2009 13:54 JWD wrote:Show nested quote +On September 04 2009 13:10 Joneagle_X wrote:
I don't like to play SCBW anymore. Played last week and the older AI pathing just disgusts me.
Oh man, you must really be dying for the SC2 beta. Archerofaiur, I'm not sure where Hot_Bid is getting "personal"? You have to consider that he's fighting the uphill battle of trying to have a serious conversation with a guy who evidently has little idea what he is talking about.
Yah I know that. But I think the truth of the matter is that regardless of who wronged who, what the SC2 fans really want to know is "Is Spawn Larva too powerful right now?"
And to make some judgement on that we need to hear what your guys opinion of Proton Charge vs Spawn Larva was.
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On September 04 2009 14:01 Archerofaiur wrote:Show nested quote +On September 04 2009 13:54 JWD wrote:On September 04 2009 13:10 Joneagle_X wrote:
I don't like to play SCBW anymore. Played last week and the older AI pathing just disgusts me.
Oh man, you must really be dying for the SC2 beta. Archerofaiur, I'm not sure where Hot_Bid is getting "personal"? You have to consider that he's fighting the uphill battle of trying to have a serious conversation with a guy who evidently has little idea what he is talking about. Yah I know that. But I think the truth of the matter is that regardless of who wronged who, what the SC2 fans really want to know is "Is Spawn Larva too powerful right now?" And to make some judgement on that we need to here what your guys opinion of Proton Charge vs Spawn Larva was.
I feel sorry for you Archerofaiur. You're trying hard to find the answer only to have other people just answer some other post rather than get back on topic. so the question is:
And to make some judgement on that we need to here what your guys opinion of Proton Charge vs Spawn Larva was.
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I felt the Spawn Larvae was a mechanic that matched the Proton Charge only when used en masse. If you use it completely as an economic advantage yes, it's equivalent to Proton Charge. But if you opt to go for increased unit production your economic advantage is lost.
I think the spawn larvae mechanic is a great addition to the Zerg but the Queen needs to have some more use than just being a macro mechanic.
However, you also have to take into account that spawning more drones is a liability and costs more supply whereas the Proton Charge simply increases the efficiency of existing workers.
And no, I don't think spawn larvae is too powerful. Just another mechanic.
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On September 04 2009 14:06 Joneagle_X wrote:
I felt the Spawn Larvae was a mechanic that matched the Proton Charge only when used en masse. If you use it completely as an economic advantage yes, it's equivalent to Proton Charge. But if you opt to go for increased unit production your economic advantage is lost.
I think the spawn larvae mechanic is a great addition to the Zerg but the Queen needs to have some more use than just being a macro mechanic.
However, you also have to take into account that spawning more drones is a liability and costs more supply whereas the Proton Charge simply increases the efficiency of existing workers.
And no, I don't think spawn larvae is too powerful. Just another mechanic.
And what did you think of Proton Charge?
and MULE?
thx man
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I would like to inject my own opinion into this argument here. Not about SC2, but about personal conduct on forums.
Even if someone comes here and badmouths everyone associated with TL, I believe that, if no one else, the admins should remain civil towards him. They represent the site, and I think while it may be perfectly justifiable to counter attack a hostile poster, it would be way more mature to be nice towards him. If he continues to be an ass, warn him, then ban him. I don't really enjoy seeing the TL admins getting personal towards this guy; it makes them look bad, and gives this thread a rather childish flavor. Also, it would make relations with other sites easier, and just in general make everyone's life easier.
In other words: LESS QQ PLZ.
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EPT
