EPT[SC2] Zerg & Larvae Injection - Page 13
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Chill
Calgary25981 Posts
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Adeeler
United Kingdom764 Posts
Protoss Observer's not needing an obs building was something I cringed at but as lurkers are all the way away now that doesn't matter as much but infestors might have a hard time. Can infestors take control of Observers or how about take over a Mothership? :D Also what was the regen time like if you ever got to tinker with the infestors, I'm guessing it'll be similar to Spawn Broodling used to be on Queens in Brood War which was handy to a degree but a bit of a hassle though with smart casting maybe its viable to turning the tide in a battle with a good number of infestors. I'm curious as to whether the improved pathing AI hurts zerg as well as now units will clump as a group so Psi storm would sound more powerful as trying to spread units will cost a lot more apm as it'll be more necessary when it used to be sort of easy to move hydras left and right a bit and they would spread into a line due to the pathing AI being worse. | ||
Hot_Bid
Braavos36375 Posts
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yarders
United Kingdom194 Posts
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Kaniol
Poland5551 Posts
 ) gogogo  | ||
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On_Slaught
United States12190 Posts
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uglymoose89
United States671 Posts
On September 04 2009 08:24 On_Slaught wrote: I'll put $100 on TL. haha, but we would need to make it more fair, how bout a one game handicap? | ||
JWD
United States12607 Posts
On September 04 2009 05:39 On_Slaught wrote: Interesting how two sc communities can be polar opposite on something like this. Yeah: one is right...one is wrong. | ||
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cerebralz
United States443 Posts
What we'll have to see is that both p and t adapt to the possibility of that early hydra break with something. Personally i think it might have to be early pressure of their own. Remember, it's still in that t can bunker jump, salvaging for 100% cost, and zealots in numbers overcome large numbers of lings, so early pressure vs. z might be necessary to force the z out of his 1 hatch queen build. Until we can really get our hands on the game and are able to technically parse food/mineral/gas count and such, we won't really know. As far as the blizz dev's are concerned, i believe Dustin Browder has already said that there are imba mechanics in the game, they are just waiting for the beta testers to break/perfect them. Besides, what else would we have to talk about while our fingers are itching to get a hold of that beta??? =P | ||
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AlwaysGG
Taiwan952 Posts
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Pyrrhuloxia
United States6700 Posts
On September 04 2009 04:33 Manit0u wrote: @Hot_Bid: Has anyone tried some queen-sniping strategies out? I believe that getting her at the right moment can stall one hatch queen strategies for enough time for the other player to catch up, am I right? I know this sounds a bit stupid since most PvZ and TvZ games would turn into "Queen Hunt" but that's what it looks like from your report. Oh gawd CONFIRMED FOR WC4. + Show Spoiler + jk | ||
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ShadowDrgn
United States2497 Posts
On September 04 2009 07:10 zatic wrote: Oh yeah and Oakhill surely still knows how to troll haha. That's what I was thinking. I bet the guy arguing with him from SCLegacy is also banned here. | ||
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1n5an1ty
United States22 Posts
of course this isnt my opinion but w/e lol | ||
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GOsmurf
5 Posts
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Joneagle_X
United States26 Posts
Jon from SC2Forums.org. I'm the guy whom HotBid "made look like he knows nothing." Sometimes the ridiculousness you guys post makes it into my inbox and then I just have to respond. Feel free to read (and inevitably downplay) my review here. And in contrast to HotBid's two days (maximum 20 hours) of playtime I've logged almost 60 hours on StarCraft 2. Look, I respect quite a few guys from TL. There are some very capable people on staff. I had a pretty good discussion with a TL member who had commented on the article I wrote, and while he had some valid points I think we straightened out some issues he wasn't understanding with StarCraft 2. Alas, I'm never going to understand the horses in the header, but that's not the point. Unfortunately, it's damaging to the development of the game and the credibility of TL when someone posts an article like this one. It's so narrow and focused (at the author's repeated admittance) that it's like measuring the safety of a vehicle solely by the type of tires it has. You can't look at StarCraft 2 through such a narrow scope and decide that you've found an issue. What's interesting is that the refutations to this article are all over the place and yet they're shot down by so many TL backers (most, if not all of whom have never played the game) because those refutations are made by "random peons" (I believe that's the popular term). In any case, let's get down to business on this one. The Queen is weaker than she was in previous builds. The only thing she's got going for her is the Larvae Spawn ability. Don't get me wrong, this ability is far and beyond the main mechanic keeping the Zerg in the game at this time (I disagree with saying that Zerg is weak, I just think they need new mechanics like the proposed Roach movement while burrowed). But that doesn't mean they're suddenly ruling the battlefield. Yes, the Zergling pathing has improved immensely. Yes, the Zergling is generally more deadly in combat, but so is the Zealot. Even with the speed upgrade Zealots are able to stack more effectively as well which means they're better able to kill Zerglings. In addition the fact that cliff vision is so dampened in StarCraft 2 makes it incredibly easy to hold a ramp against Zerglings. The only race at a disadvantage in Tier 1 is Terran and even then a Terran can have an effective wall up by 1:40 by using an additional SCV for the second supply depot. As far as macro is concerned (and to refute the idea that a 1-Hatch Zergling build is somehow "invincible") the race with the most powerful macro element is Protoss. The new Obelisk ability is absolutely ridiculous. Even utilizing the Queen's larvae ability, it's still a challenge for the Zerg to keep up economically. I think this is a fundamental mistake made in this article. HotBid failed to take into account the fact that while the Zerg has the option to either produce extra units or opt for saturation of their expansions, the Protoss also has the ability to mass produce these same tier 1 units. It's likely that HotBid's opponents weren't utilizing this mechanic to its full potential. I'd also like to point to the fact that the Queen has only 175 HP and only does 8 damage, half that of the Zealot. A single zealot could easily kill a Queen as she's fairly slow even on Creep. This makes the Queen incredibly easy to kill and is a big, fat, juicy target. It is a viable strategy to kill your opponent's Queen instead of going for their drones. She's the cost equivalent of three drones and also has the potential to create many more. Next I feel I just have to address what I can only describe as a laughable description of "20+" Hydralisks at only 5-6 minutes in (from HotBid's description it seems like even less time). I find it hilarious that he suggests he had produced this many before a Terran opponent was able to tech Siege Tanks. Absolutely ridiculous. I'd also like to point out that the Terran Hellion is so mass producible (I will describe a perfect counter build shortly) and so devastating to Hydralisks that as a Zerg player I would be very reluctant to mass produce Hydralisks against a Terran opponent. Roaches would be much more appropriate. Lurkers even more so. I could go into the fact that there is no real acceptable tier 2 "tank" unit for the Zerg like the Lurker was in BW but that's not for this discussion. In essence what I'm saying is that while the Queen's macro ability is certainly powerful, it is not in any capacity a game ending mechanic. I played against a couple decent Zerg players and an easy and effective counter as Terran is as follows: 8 SCV -> Wall Supply Depot -> Barracks 12 SCV -> Second Wall Depot 13 SCV -> Refinery -> Marine 15 SCV -> Barracks Reactor -> Pump Marines -> Orbital Command -> MULE This is easily enough to eliminate any threat made by Zerglings. You're simply not going to take a ramp with Zerglings against a Terran build like that. You need more firepower. The Terran's next step is to tech a factory, swap out their second barracks for a reactor on the factory, and begin producing Hellions en masse. The Hellion (with Marine support) is more than a match for Hydralisks even in a decent group. Their speed also makes it all but impossible for the Zerg to flee to battlefield as they're as fast as speedlings. As if it needed a third reason, the Hellion is also massively produceable at 100 minerals and has splash damage. Another option would be to go for Marauders which massed with Marines (saying a 4 rax Terran is unable to keep up with Zergling production is just ridiculous) would be enough to counter Hydralisks as well. You'd still need some Hellions but you wouldn't need the factory reactor. Anyway, a second factory is then used to tech Siege Tanks and grab a couple Thors (to decimate Mutalisks as well as destroy Hatcheries in just a couple shots). I could go on forever, but frankly I think HotBid should have focused more on Zerg's inability to counter Terran Tier 2 than their supposed ability to conquer all during Tier 1. | ||
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Joneagle_X
United States26 Posts
But I'll take a 1v1 challenge for SC2. | ||
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LordofAscension
United States589 Posts
On September 04 2009 11:05 Joneagle_X wrote: Oh, and ease up on Legacy. TL is not the be-all end-all of StarCraft. But I'll take a 1v1 challenge for SC2. Not to mention that the SC:L poster doesn't represent SC:L - so please don't judge the site or its community by one person's ranting. The bashing is not appreciated. As to the article - it is well written - but beta will be the true indicator of its success. I tend to agree with Joneagle that there's more to it. ~LoA | ||
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Adeeler
United Kingdom764 Posts
20x 100m = 2000m 20x 75g = 1500g 20x 75m = 1500m 20x 25g = 500g The gas difference is huge thats for sure. If zerg can survive with as few lings as needed based on BW the cheaper amounts of gas & minerals weren't very hard to achieve but the larger gas price would be hard to get to. Whats the major gas mechanic change exactly? Less gas gathered wasn't it? Well its all very interesting to see how things will work out in beta. | ||
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EEEE1234
Canada55 Posts
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Manifesto7
Osaka27152 Posts
Sometimes the ridiculousness you guys post makes it into my inbox and then I just have to respond.p Yeah, way to endear yourself to the community right off the bat. Your entire post is belittling, full of exageration, and the TL post openly admitted it was nothing but a couple days experimentation. I didn't see anything methodical about your column, it was just one mans subjective opinion with little context as to how you drew your conclusions. You are one guy who has played 60 hours. TL is made up of a dozen staff members who have been to all three blizzcons, two WWIs, and all the Blizzard invite events at Irvine. They also worked as a team at Blizzcon, rather than playing WoW scrubs by themselves. If you are new here, you should show the same manner a TL staff member would show on your site. And LoA, why does SCL seem to get so defensive with TL lately when all we have done is help you (promoting CGI, getting PP done). I don't think anyone worthwhile believes some bnet forum retard represents your site. Nobody here said anything bad about your site. edit - and www.starcraft2forum guy, I think people were talking about the gamereplays article, not yours. But go ahead and get defensive anyway. | ||
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