EPTI know this sounds a bit stupid since most PvZ and TvZ games would turn into "Queen Hunt" but that's what it looks like from your report.
[SC2] Zerg & Larvae Injection - Page 12
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Manit0u
Poland17575 Posts
I know this sounds a bit stupid since most PvZ and TvZ games would turn into "Queen Hunt" but that's what it looks like from your report. | ||
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Railxp
Hong Kong1313 Posts
my grin was wider than a Mr.Jack defiler's mouth when reading this article. Good to know my favorite race is still made of ownage, and that battle reports only show suckage. | ||
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Aegraen
United States1225 Posts
I'm pretty sure that Toss should be able to get charge on their zealots by the time you get speed upgrade and have such a mass. Zealots also cost less and from other reports dark pylon is the most powerful economic macro booster. I guess we'll find out when Beta is released, just really curious how can you really get double the units of your opponent especially when that unit cost 100M/75G meaning that at most you can only get 66 hydra's off one base. | ||
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WWJDD
India342 Posts
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Teejing
Germany1360 Posts
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Kennigit
Canada19447 Posts
On September 04 2009 05:10 WWJDD wrote: I am not sure if anybody else has realized this, but there's one aspect of larva selection that makes it really really tough on a scout. Previously, if you see three larvae morphing into eggs simultaneously, you only need to look at one to know what's in the pipeline. But now, the user can go zhdhzdoqmm and create a bunch of units near simultaneously that'll all need to be looked at individually by a scout. Does this mean that scouting the zerg is much tougher now, even if you manage to somehow get a scout into the base and keep it alive in the first place? I think this makes it even more OP than just having the ability to spawn extra larvae, because scouting is not only tough, it also needs a lot more APM for the probes and SCVs. ...ummm...you are not able to see what are in opponent eggs in starcraft or starcraft 2. Only in replays. | ||
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On_Slaught
United States12190 Posts
http://forums.battle.net/thread.html?topicId=19717642275&sid=3000 The Powda guy seems very angry at your article haha. Seems like he's a SClegacy guy who hates TL lol. After reading the SCLegacy forums they have a thread like this about how Zerg is underpowered. Interesting how two sc communities can be polar opposite on something like this. | ||
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peidongyang
Canada2084 Posts
 hotkey queen every 25 seconds, inject larva. haha, its like playing starcraft1 off 1 hatch which produces 2.5x larva lol | ||
Chill
Calgary25991 Posts
On September 04 2009 04:45 Aegraen wrote: I'm pretty sure that Toss should be able to get charge on their zealots by the time you get speed upgrade Not even remotely close. Like this is so wrong it's actually incomprehensible that you could be pretty sure about it. I guess we'll find out when Beta is released, just really curious how can you really get double the units of your opponent especially when that unit cost 100M/75G meaning that at most you can only get 66 hydra's off one base. http://www.sc2armory.com/game/zerg/units Hydralisks are 75/25, so that clears your other problem up nicely. | ||
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reallogic
United States65 Posts
On September 04 2009 04:45 Aegraen wrote: I'm pretty skeptical how you can mass a unit that costs 100m/75g so much that you even have a chance to have double the amount of units that cost much less. On top of that even have upgraded speed.... I'm pretty sure that Toss should be able to get charge on their zealots by the time you get speed upgrade and have such a mass. Zealots also cost less and from other reports dark pylon is the most powerful economic macro booster. I guess we'll find out when Beta is released, just really curious how can you really get double the units of your opponent especially when that unit cost 100M/75G meaning that at most you can only get 66 hydra's off one base. I'm not 100% sure how accurate this is but after reading your post I was curious to how you could mass hydras as hot_bid suggested while they were so expensive, so I did some digging and found this site: http://www.starcraft-source.com/unitdatabase/. If some one could confirm this is accurate I think we can see how it'd be much easier to mass hydras if they are only 75 mins and 25 gas. ::Looks like Chill beat me to it. | ||
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Kennigit
Canada19447 Posts
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r4j2ill
Canada111 Posts
however! i think sc2 ppl can make this ballanced by increasing the energy required to do larva injection so it is used less often | ||
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Aegraen
United States1225 Posts
On September 04 2009 05:53 Chill wrote: Not even remotely close. Like this is so wrong it's actually incomprehensible that you could be pretty sure about it. http://www.sc2armory.com/game/zerg/units Hydralisks are 75/25, so that clears your other problem up nicely. Thanks for the clarification. Blizzard is taking far too long with the Beta >.< | ||
Hot_Bid
Braavos36389 Posts
the larger point from my post is not that Zerg can always win with 1 hatch hydra. its that because your dead scout can't see what the Z is doing, its impossible to tell what he's spending the extra larvae on. among tier 1 units, Zerg dominates. this allows them to gain a ridiculous advantage if the T or P doesn't "guess" correctly (whether the Z is powering, attacking, or doing a combination of both). Of course it'd be easy to win if you knew exactly how many hydras the Z was making. it mean it makes sense intuitively -- more larvae = more extreme unit or worker production swings. you can either make a lot more lings for an all in or make a lot more drones, or a combination of. there are already a lot of problems with all-in "guesses" against Zerg in BW, the extra larvae just exasperate the problem. | ||
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Archerofaiur
United States4101 Posts
Did you every play a Protoss player who was constantly using Proton Charge correctly? | ||
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dNo_O
United States233 Posts
Personally i think this might be an ability blizzard should think about scrapping: -The concept of larvae injection is the absolute ideal for a war... better resourcing and by doing it you can also create misinformation and a larger army? how can you make an ability even close to that without it being exactly that? the p and t bonuses are only to minerals, which as hot_bid mentioned, are quite quickly useless without gas // drones can expand or mine gas or minerals). -If you bring it into the game at a later tech tier, the concept behind larvae injection is entirely impossible for p or t to match. for 150 minerals you have (from what i've read) a feasible mobile (moves around your base like greased lightning) scout denying, misinforming, and (every 25 seconds) 4 x barracks/factory/gateway/stargate/starport/robo/worker producer. -Even if you were to nerf it down to 1 larvae/skill use it's a production bonus that p and t cannot possibly compete with... in BW how many gates/barracks do you need to keep up with a 3 base 5 hatch zerg? 6 or 7? so... even if it's just 1 larvae bonus... 5 hatch would be roughly 7 hatch now, for the cost of an extra overlord or 2(so you can build the queens)? -The cost? 150 is 25 less than a sunken in BW, and only as much as a gate/barracks, but this one is a super producer, can hide, shoots air and can chase down scouts (if my info on the queen is still correct... can you still get burrow for it?). -I don't see how a 20%(?) bonus to minerals (for p and t) can be equal to a 25%(?) potential production bonus (hatcheries produce 4 larvae now right?) + expo defender(?) + scouting denier. -The only way i could see it evening out would be if zerg wasn't the strongest army supply for supply like it is in BW... but that would rely on games making it to max supply counts so people would have to weigh having an extra ultra or 2 queens, but of course, if you have those queens you can just reinforce that much faster than your opponent can... yeah I don't see any way you can make this mechanically fair. if you increase the mana cost, what's the loss? there's nothing you could add that would be more worthwhile without being even more imbalanced... you could just end up with the original BW queen, a quirky POS that occasionally makes an entertaining appearance. -If you're already going to give mineral only bonuses to two of the three races why wouldn't you just throw your hands up and make it easy on yourself by giving it to all three? conceptually isn't this impossible to balance without making it into some kind of equally capped eco boost like the p and t ones are? it plays too much on the original unique benefit that zerg has and eliminates what i've heard zerg players say is the real definition of skill for zerg: choosing between resources, technology, or army strength I hope i'm not repeating what everyone else is saying so far... honestly i feel like i'm rambling a bit because i have no hands on experience with the game... and i think my first sentence+paragraph sums up the whole post if you think critically about it. Of course, i haven't played the alpha, and this is all on whatever most likely outdated information I have about sc2, and whatever details, or schemes i could gleam from the article without actually hearing/seeing the games and players.. I think I need a nap. | ||
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dNo_O
United States233 Posts
On September 04 2009 05:53 Chill wrote: Not even remotely close. Like this is so wrong it's actually incomprehensible that you could be pretty sure about it. http://www.sc2armory.com/game/zerg/units Hydralisks are 75/25, so that clears your other problem up nicely. is that updated regularly as they move into new builds? it says the queen is only 100M now | ||
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Chill
Calgary25991 Posts
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reallogic
United States65 Posts
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zatic
Zurich15358 Posts
On September 04 2009 06:14 Hot_Bid wrote: lol he's so mad at us -- would've loved to see what he said if we actually played him. whereas i freely admit that we could be completely missing things and aren't experts, he's going off on how he's some sc2 superpro -- nobody at this stage in game development can be that great at a game when people are coming to completely opposite conclusions about it. This is why I love putting out those articles, makes half the world rage. I played 2 days more Starcraft2 than him, by his logic I must be super uber pro right? Oh yeah and Oakhill surely still knows how to troll haha. | ||
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