EPT[SC2] Zerg & Larvae Injection - Page 6
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d(O.o)a
Canada5066 Posts
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ArvickHero
10387 Posts
On September 03 2009 12:08 Archerofaiur wrote: I think this is kind of like if we were playing SC1 alpha and someone discovered that making workers all game was unbeatable. Of course you would have people saying making workers is overpowered. to be honest, this was a really dumb analogy. | ||
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Hot_Bid
Braavos36401 Posts
On September 03 2009 12:33 d(O.o)a wrote: I'm curious, did you try a 1gate expand sort of build? or 2gate using zeals to force defense but never actually attacking or faking the attack and pulling back while adding an expo or something like that. 1 gate expand = instadeath to lings 1 gate into stalkers = might get ramp broken by lings 2 gate commit zeals to attack = death if the Zerg is decent 2 gate save zeals, get stalkers, pressure = maybe you win if you micro well vs hydras FE = gigantic coinflip, if you guess right on defense you are probably even, if you guess wrong, you instadie | ||
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d_so
Korea (South)3262 Posts
maybe make this ability have diminishing returns in terms of cooldown: first time cool down is so and so, second time has an increased cd, etc. after a while it's so slow you have to make urself a new queen | ||
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FabledIntegral
United States9232 Posts
On September 03 2009 11:13 tedster wrote: If you move the queen to later game because it's too overpowered early game, you're basically saying zerg has to be as good early on (when it doesn't have a macro mechanic) as T or P when they do have their mechanic, which would probably throw the balance of power off even further as soon as the queen did come into play, all while making zerg easier to play. No matter where you put the queen in its current incarnation, it's going to create an imbalanced playing field unless the other races gain dramatic new macro mechanics. How is that true? By what "rules" state that macro mechanics need to be introduced at the same part of the game to be balanced? It doesn't necessarily throw off the balance of power at all. Terran supposedly doesn't even use theirs too much early game, while Toss may have higher worker saturation by midgame thus increasing the yields even further with the mechanic. I'm not arguing that it doesn't need to be tweaked, but you're overexaggerating the effects. | ||
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Hyde
Australia14568 Posts
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dcttr66
United States555 Posts
On September 03 2009 08:36 toopham wrote: good writeup. very interesting. I am confuse about 1 part though. In the Macro section you wrote: "With Zerg you select your hatches, hit "S" to select all the larvae, and press "H" 10 times to make 10 hydralisks. Easy." In BW you select the hatches, press S and it selects ALL the larvae. So why would you have to press H 10 times to make hydras? Did they change it in SC2 where pressing H only use up 1 larvae? my favorite reason for why they did this is that now you can select all and go like hhhhhzzzzz instead of selecting five, doing h and selecting 5 and doing z...it's a lot simpler and smoother this way. | ||
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Archerofaiur
United States4101 Posts
On September 03 2009 12:36 ArvickHero wrote: to be honest, this was a really dumb analogy. Why? The new macro mechanics are analogous to SC1's manual worker mining. Its something you want to do all game to increase your army size. If you tried playing SC1 without making any more workers I think youd have a tough time winning aswell. | ||
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Hot_Bid
Braavos36401 Posts
On September 03 2009 12:55 Hyde wrote: This is a really nice write up, TL articles always are. There's a stark contrast between what you are saying in this article and what GamesReplay are saying, yesterday I was reading their article and thought "wow this sucks" because I didn't like the whole zerg are now a defensive race, I'm now still thinking "wow this sucks" because zerg are (particularly with this one build) too strong. It appears you are either equal in build or your are behind, you never actually have an advantage with the other two races no matter what strategy you take. Is the queen built really quickly? (what's the build time?) maybe sniping the queen early on may halt their production abilities early on? Queen builds extremely fast and you usually have it out before your lings reach their base (that means the Queen has already spawned larvae and is ready if they rush you with zealots or marines. it also means that by the time 3 or 5 zealots get to your main, you have at least cycled through 3-4-5 regular larvae from hatch plus the queen's extra larvae which show up 25 seconds later. rushing against 13-pool queen with Protoss is basically impossible, they make too many lings too fast. i guess it might work if you like proxy inside their main or something lol | ||
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Hot_Bid
Braavos36401 Posts
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Mystlord
United States10264 Posts
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Hot_Bid
Braavos36401 Posts
On September 03 2009 13:08 Mystlord wrote: Nice write-up. Never knew how powerful the Inject Larva ability was. Hopefully Blizzard fixes this or something. There's still a chance we staff just completely overestimated it and missed something with T and P. | ||
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Nightmarjoo
United States3360 Posts
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Plexa
Aotearoa39261 Posts
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ShadowDrgn
United States2497 Posts
On September 03 2009 08:33 Hot_Bid wrote: I mean, I'm not going to go up to David Kim and be like "yo Queen is imba" after playing 5 games with it. I know enough about StarCraft to know I'm not THAT good at it haha. Mazar and I asked one of Blizzard's programmers about this and he thought David Kim got his queen a bit later. We tried to track down the SC2 bonjwa and get some insights, but we failed at finding him. Supposedly he spent a lot of time in the public SC2 area playing random people.  | ||
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tedster
984 Posts
On September 03 2009 12:50 FabledIntegral wrote: How is that true? By what "rules" state that macro mechanics need to be introduced at the same part of the game to be balanced? It doesn't necessarily throw off the balance of power at all. Terran supposedly doesn't even use theirs too much early game, while Toss may have higher worker saturation by midgame thus increasing the yields even further with the mechanic. I'm not arguing that it doesn't need to be tweaked, but you're overexaggerating the effects. The basic idea that all 3 races should be viable at every point in the game is basic game balance. Obviously some races may have a slight advantage over others at specific timing windows, but the general balance should remain. Testing of SC2 has shown that a player utilizing proper macro mechanics will absolutely slaughter a player who is not (similar to in SC!) On top of that, it's already been shown that Zerg suffers badly in the early game if they are not abusing Larvae Inject. Now, compound this fact with zerg being considered BY FAR the most limited race in options in the current build of SC2's early game, and you've got a situation where delaying the macro mechanic is simply impossible. On top of all that, you're suggesting a significant delay to a mechanic that was added in because macro was considered too easy without it. Making zerg "good enough" to compete for a significant period of time without it removes the burden of macro and creates a very linear early game - which is part of what makes Warcraft 3 so boring to SC players. Another enormous problem that you practically invite is how "Queen tech being delayed invites T and P to rush zerg early game before it comes out". I understand what you're trying to say (more play with zerg making units vs. drones instead of spamming both with larvae) but you're absolutely missing the point with respect to how this would destroy game depth. Admitting that spawn larvae is probably too strong and putting it at a higher tech with the intention that T and P should be rushing Z every game (in order to win before the queen comes out) and have an advantage in doing so is a horrible linear gameplay idea and would necessitate A.) Zerg being weaker than T and P in general for it to be fair and B.) T and P rushing Z every damn game. This is a bad solution and would result in a matchup far less interesting than the current ZvZ in SC1 that so many people seem to dislike. | ||
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Kennigit
Canada19447 Posts
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0neder
United States3733 Posts
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Pyrrhuloxia
United States6700 Posts
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tedster
984 Posts
On September 03 2009 13:29 Kennigit wrote: I think theres a lot of theory crafting going on in this thread that isn't relevant lol. Be cool dudes. To be fair it is kind of a theorycrafting thread, and we're having fun =] | ||
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