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darthfoley
United States8004 Posts
Nah. On January 19 2018 01:21 Rels wrote: I also don't like BTDT's first post. Feels weird. I also don't like rsoul being the Damdred whisperer and being bothered with him but not poking him to get a proper read There ya go. | ||
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Mocsta
Australia9388 Posts
Why call me out, ignore me and then throw this? On January 19 2018 05:10 darthfoley wrote: I find it peculiar that you go into detail on why you dont 'understand' BDTD motives; yet, for me, its a simple (and backtrackable): scum alignment.Mocsta can still be scum though. On January 19 2018 05:03 darthfoley wrote: What was this intentionI'm also sus of those of you who scumread me for one post where my intention was pretty clear, if you weren't trying to misrepresent me | ||
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darthfoley
United States8004 Posts
On January 19 2018 09:17 Mocsta wrote: @darthfoley Why call me out, ignore me and then throw this? I find it peculiar that you go into detail on why you dont 'understand' BDTD motives; yet, for me, its a simple (and backtrackable): scum alignment. What was this intention I haven't ignored you. I fell asleep last night and then by the time I was off work today, there were 7 pages of reading I did and I responded to them. What I said here On January 18 2018 12:58 darthfoley wrote: who is this mocsta character and why is he speaking so much? Is basically what HF said here On January 18 2018 17:18 Holyflare wrote: Cos I'm town. Also don't take mocsta's enthusiasm as towny. Looks pretty forced and says nothing. I agree with HF that you've posted a lot and yet I can't remember anything you've actually said. What do you think of the game currently? | ||
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darthfoley
United States8004 Posts
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darthfoley
United States8004 Posts
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Mocsta
Australia9388 Posts
============================ I am concerned... I am seeing a pattern of people issuing town reads (solely) for being congruent with their reads. Does it really bear repeating: Mafia know who the town is! ============================ If you want me to join the town circle-jerk club. Fine: There is only one individual that gives me consitently good feelings and that is + Show Spoiler + TWAT. Why? Because whilst mafia and town have the same priorites during Day1 (i.e. establish innocence); I dont believe mafia are capable of consistently simulating in parallel: - paranoia - confirmation bias / fixed dichotomy mindset - willingness to throw out a position Whilst I dont agree with the conclusions drawn by this player, I dont think the motives are malicious due to the above. ============================ But, I would rather weigh in on nulls and reds. Priority #1: What to make of damerion/damdred case
Whilst I have no qualm with Damdred brushing off the case, i do have a problem with how Damdred clings to the mocsta/DF thread sentiment throughout his filter and case response. "Why doesn't it make sense that they could be scum together (mocsta and DF), they have no real interactions together (yet)...But still a bit much to make a decision either way I suppose. But both are scummy" "But id be happy just lynching moc today anyway." "but also seems like a way to change conversation away from DF and moc who I guess you have at null?" This is wishy washy at best, and non-congruent with the town-play meta argument at worst. I think a town that is +1 bandwagoning would be more likely to get frustrated during this exchange. Especially in day1 when circles are small, and paranoia can be at its peak. This is not present at all. Rather, whilst being poked Damdred remains calculated in response; making it even more intrigruing that a firm opinion is held without a firm base. Uncharacteristic of a measured thinker. Overall, I observe Damdred employing an "appeal to emotion" through reconjuring thread bias without further substantiating or developing it. Whilst, town is capable of using this (typically under confirmation bias) - at what point can it be deduced that Damdred is experiencing confirmation bias?? At what point can it be deduced that Damdred is poking somone, or laying a trap? Rather, I prefer the simplest explanation: that an appeal to emotion is a tactic associated with lazy mafia play. ============================ Priority #2: Other comments of interest Holyflare Im confused by HF - until he "couldnt fathom the mindset" of kelsier, I wasnt actually sure why damdred was voted. On one hand, I feel that HF is constantly prodding people in a constructive manner; On the other hand, whilst he has communicated why he voted damdred, its for reasoning I dont agree with (i.e. focusing on behaviour rather than motive). Am i wrong to expect more? Darthfoley Reads like he is observing the game and commenting for funsies. I dont know how to explain it other than its feels like he is here, yet not actually in the moment?!?! More investigating required. mderg I feel that mderg is trying to post just enough to not be forgotten. Its interesting that the biggest attempt to persuade the thread revolves around shifting the focus from damdred to damerion. "Using the fact that Damdred left the thread is like the weakest reason to push the read I can imagine." Given I think the poke was fair game, i think this is hyperbole from mderg. An interesting connection with potentially interesting timing nonetheless. | ||
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Mocsta
Australia9388 Posts
KelsierSC: Is that not the point? Damdred was appealing to thread bias to push scum reads on his behalf...A soft push bruh.Main issue is the damdred discussion... I didn't feel he was really pushing a scum read that hard. KelsierSC: Firstly, Tina hasnt put me in town circle?? Secondly, this is a not a logical conclusion as when reversed: If Tina is mafia and likes enthusiasm; your logic infers it would be a naturally difficult for her to call me mafia... i.e. whether rsoultin is town or mafia, I end up town. I've agreed with most everything that Tina has said and I knew she would like costa. They both post in similair style. Costa's enthusiasm is enough for a tone read pass D1. KelsierSC: I dont understand how you can elicit such a strong opinion when damdred hasnt flipped? I do think Damdred is scummy, so why should others know better? The strong opinion is what makes this feel like a cheap way to open the door to target that wagon.my scummy reads come from people who agree on the damdred wagon when they should probably know better. KelsierSC: What credit? He was trying to sway the case from damdred to damerion?I don't like Mderg I think his disappointment at the thread felt fake and his 10 page hf point was not my experience of hf at all. In general I have disagreed with almost everything he said apart from his agreement that damerion is just too aggro. So I could see Mderg knowing both damdred and damerion are town and trying to get some credit later...maybe im just biased with that . Either you are using too much intraverted intuition to converge possibilities or or intentionally misinterpretting events. KelsierSC: This I do agree with.I like kmatt but just because his 4d chess comment was really funny. | ||
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Mocsta
Australia9388 Posts
On January 18 2018 22:38 Damerion wrote: [...] .... <Darthfoley read>,.... ... <Mocsta read>... On January 19 2018 02:29 TheTwatyEvildoer wrote: Its not sealed TWAT.I was worried about him only seeming to have a read on damdred. But it seems strange for him if he is mafia to exclude the other two prime vote targets at the time from his pool. ... Bear in mind this is before the damdred votes piled so it would be a major gamble from him to make it impossible to chase Mcosta Rico and Darthfoley based off current suspecious of them. I felt he was town before, but I think this seals it. Thoughts? This is way too convoluted. Whether town or mafia, Damerion could have done what you were saying. A non-alignment example is to not want to dilute a point with rambling. Lets pretend I am mafia and Damerion is mafia. I dont see a motive to do what you said because Firstly, was there actually any pressure? Secondly, Who actually voted me....? .. No One. Lets pretend I am mafia and Damerion is town. I dont see a motive to do what you said because why cant he focus first on someone he has familiarity with? why does he have to agree with your reads? Whether town or mafia, your reasoning above is not a justification. Which is why i keep coming back to the Damdred soft push on me. As mafia, who wouldnt want to shift the thread Day1 onto an "Easy Target" that has somewhat polarised the thread and is in opposite timezones? | ||
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rsoultin
Netherlands15308 Posts
On January 19 2018 08:34 prplhz wrote: I have very little time who are you voting for rsoultin? Holyflare most likely. Not Damdred. Probably not mocsta. Realistically might have to consider other lynches. | ||
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rsoultin
Netherlands15308 Posts
I'm not going to pretend that I'm infallible. Reading Damdred is something im good at, though. And I'm pretty confident he's town here. If you put yourself in the shoes of someone thinking a town lynch is being pushed, and you see people jumping on the wagon for flimsy reasons that you believe to be beneath their town play, the natural conclusion then is that they're probably just scum. | ||
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rsoultin
Netherlands15308 Posts
Can you read my attempt to explain my scumread on him earlier and give a fleshed opinion on him? | ||
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rsoultin
Netherlands15308 Posts
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Mocsta
Australia9388 Posts
On January 19 2018 15:06 rsoultin wrote: Welcome, however Im a bit confused here, because I cant tell if you are addressing me; or responding to a comment I wrote to ?Kelsier?@mocsta...I know how this sounds to players who are relatively new, but expecting certain players to see things differently than others isn't strange. It's a function of playing with them enough to get an idea of how they think. I'm not going to pretend that I'm infallible. Reading Damdred is something im good at, though. And I'm pretty confident he's town here. If you put yourself in the shoes of someone thinking a town lynch is being pushed, and you see people jumping on the wagon for flimsy reasons that you believe to be beneath their town play, the natural conclusion then is that they're probably just scum. As for the bold.. ppl jump on wagons all the time. I think its quite pointless to question the antics and sequences, unless a flip connected to the wagon has occured. With your damdred knowledge, as town, is he liable to use an appeal to emotion? | ||
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Mocsta
Australia9388 Posts
On January 19 2018 15:11 rsoultin wrote: Nevermind. You kind of did. What is this example of constructive prodding you mentioned? On January 18 2018 17:18 Holyflare wrote: ...Also don't take mocsta's enthusiasm as towny. Looks pretty forced and says nothing. On January 18 2018 21:36 Holyflare wrote: On the train in I thought about taking back my Mocsta read and was gonna come in and announce that but his later posts still don't say anything other than trying to explain why his initial posts feel weird. He's defending himself instead of making the top tier reads. Don't like. On January 18 2018 21:42 Holyflare wrote: Why is mocsta slightly scummy anyway? Not explained it. On January 18 2018 22:35 Holyflare wrote: You just acknowledged he was correct lol. On January 19 2018 04:56 Holyflare wrote: Who are these people calling df scum? As a web of posts, I see an effort to provide small impetus. They arent meaningless posts, rather, they succinctly question the thought process. I dont think in any of these examples he is trying to exert/influence the recipients view point - rather open their thoughts. That is constructive prodding to me. | ||
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rsoultin
Netherlands15308 Posts
On January 19 2018 15:12 Mocsta wrote: Welcome, however Im a bit confused here, because I cant tell if you are addressing me; or responding to a comment I wrote to ?Kelsier? As for the bold.. ppl jump on wagons all the time. I think its quite pointless to question the antics and sequences, unless a flip connected to the wagon has occured. With your damdred knowledge, as town, is he liable to use an appeal to emotion? As town he gets emotional. As scum he has a hard time reproducing the feelings in his town game. It's unfair to call it an appeal to emotion when I happen to know it's not intentional and he actually was trying (at least at one point) to keep the emotion out of his town play. And while I understand your assertion and obviously a flip provides more information, it's a legitimate way to get reads day 1. It's not what reads people have, but how they come to them that is the main focus. That is why I think that holyflare is scum. | ||
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Mocsta
Australia9388 Posts
I am at no point commenting of damdred becoming emotional. I am commenting on him plucking on the emotions of the thread to push his agenda. Appeal to emotion or argumentum ad passiones is a logical fallacy characterized by the manipulation of the recipient's emotions in order to win an argument, especially in the absence of factual evidence === Re: wagon voters Its not real pressure unless all town are voting. Last I checked, 5 voted, 8 did not vote. There is no real pressure to be lynched at this stage... Thus, I dont view assessing a non-flipped wagon on day1 as legitimate, because town and mafia are equally capable of jumping on for funsies, pressure, laziness <insert another 1000 reasons>. === As for HF, I see a lynch on him at this stage as a hail-mary attempt. If hes mafia, its very destabilising, and almost game over. If hes town, its destabilising and we lose a very good asset. Remember, he would also have 2 team mates... | ||
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Mocsta
Australia9388 Posts
In retrospect, I would like to hear HF thoughts on my damdred observations. Whilst I dont like HF voting damdred for behaviour instead of motive; it is also arguable I could only discern motive through a vote on behaviour. My problem is a town or mafia HF could easily say they voted damdred because of the meta case as a prod... where does that get us? | ||
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rsoultin
Netherlands15308 Posts
On January 19 2018 15:17 Mocsta wrote: As a web of posts, I see an effort to provide small impetus. They arent meaningless posts, rather, they succinctly question the thought process. I dont think in any of these examples he is trying to exert/influence the recipients view point - rather open their thoughts. That is constructive prodding to me. I can see why you think that. The first two were elicited by my engaging him, though. And you'll note he was singularly not constructive when I pressed for elaboration. Then you have a request for an explanation, the post that led to his shit reason for scumreading Damdred the likes of which I've seen in previous scum games of his, and a pretty innocuous question. I don't call that constructive. I call that lazy at best and shallow skating by at worst. You have to understand that holyflare is considered to be one of the best players on tl. And his push on Damdred in the context of this nothingness with shit reasoning clinches it for me. Like I agree you look bad just defending yourself but your 'crazy' entrance that contributes nothing to a game that hasn't started yet with almost no one posting and you prodding people to respond to you should not be getting scum reads in my opinion. I don't like hf pointing at that. He takes my one slight townread and shits on it for poor reasons while not commenting on any of my other reads. he just made a joke about itch cream. That has obvious scum motivation if you know that I'm town. | ||
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rsoultin
Netherlands15308 Posts
On January 19 2018 15:32 Mocsta wrote: rsoultin, perhaps you have misunderstood "Appeal to Emotion" I am at no point commenting of damdred becoming emotional. I am commenting on him plucking on the emotions of the thread to push his agenda. Appeal to emotion or argumentum ad passiones is a logical fallacy characterized by the manipulation of the recipient's emotions in order to win an argument, especially in the absence of factual evidence === Re: wagon voters Its not real pressure unless all town are voting. Last I checked, 5 voted, 8 did not vote. There is no real pressure to be lynched at this stage... Thus, I dont view assessing a non-flipped wagon on day1 as legitimate, because town and mafia are equally capable of jumping on for funsies, pressure, laziness <insert another 1000 reasons>. === As for HF, I see a lynch on him at this stage as a hail-mary attempt. If hes mafia, its very destabilising, and almost game over. If hes town, its destabilising and we lose a very good asset. Remember, he would also have 2 team mates... I hate that reasoning. If he's my top scumread I want him lynched. No one else has as good a chance of flipping scum in my eyes. And frankly, if he is town and this is how he's going to play this game has not worth keeping, and not just because he'll be a distraction to me until one of us is removed from the game. | ||
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rsoultin
Netherlands15308 Posts
On January 19 2018 15:35 Mocsta wrote: rsoultin, In retrospect, I would like to hear HF thoughts on my damdred observations. Whilst I dont like HF voting damdred for behaviour instead of motive; it is also arguable I could only discern motive through a vote on behaviour. My problem is a town or mafia HF could easily say they voted damdred because of the meta case as a prod... where does that get us? He voted him for admitting he says like a lot and is trying to change it. Hf can say what he wants. His filter shows this to be the reason. Also, can you quote what you think is aoe? | ||
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