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On January 19 2018 15:36 rsoultin wrote:
I can see why you think that. The first two were elicited by my engaging him, though. And you'll note he was singularly not constructive when I pressed for elaboration. Whether anyone else agrees or not.. I think the timezone of this game is really impacting certain hours (especially near deadline).. Where im getting at, is the first 12hours of the game was sleep time for lots of people which naturally makes sense with ppl coming in, throwing a post and then disappearing.. HF (and others) are not doing this exclusively to you.. so I shamelessly am writing off a lot of that stuff as a tell/motive.
To me its only more relevant if HF was still doing this to you (i.e. prior to deadline).
i.e a pattern has formed of ignoring your prodding.
Then you have a request for an explanation, the post that led to his shit reason for scumreading Damdred the likes of which I've seen in previous scum games of his, and a pretty innocuous question. perhaps valid.. i agree on the behaviour vs. motive part.
I don't call that constructive. I call that lazy at best and shallow skating by at worst. You have to understand that holyflare is considered to be one of the best players on tl. And his push on Damdred in the context of this nothingness with shit reasoning clinches it for me. i *REALLY* like this from you. I think its very townie to be offended someone you are trying to discern "treats' you that way. Whether your read is right or wrong, I do think you are taking it a little too personal, as there are plenty of reasons this could have happened that are not even mafia/town related.. but just, in-real life related.
Like I agree you look bad just defending yourself but your 'crazy' entrance that contributes nothing to a game that hasn't started yet with almost no one posting and you prodding people to respond to you should not be getting scum reads in my opinion. I don't like hf pointing at that. He takes my one slight townread and shits on it for poor reasons while not commenting on any of my other reads. he just made a joke about itch cream. That has obvious scum motivation if you know that I'm town. I felt I understood why HF pointed that out, and it was reinforced by Kelsier assumptino on how you may have read me.. I think Kelsier single handedly destroys your argument.
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On January 19 2018 15:42 rsoultin wrote:Show nested quote +On January 19 2018 15:35 Mocsta wrote:
rsoultin,
In retrospect, I would like to hear HF thoughts on my damdred observations.
Whilst I dont like HF voting damdred for behaviour instead of motive; it is also arguable I could only discern motive through a vote on behaviour.
My problem is a town or mafia HF could easily say they voted damdred because of the meta case as a prod...
where does that get us? He voted him for admitting he says like a lot and is trying to change it. Hf can say what he wants. His filter shows this to be the reason. Also, can you quote what you think is aoe?
(1) Im not sure what is "aoe"
If you are referring to appeal to emotion by damdred, its in my vote post... whilst brushing off damerion, he keeps trying to casually bring back to the fore mocsta/DF, without substantiating why its relevant or trying to develop it further... to me, the purpose of that is to get others to grab the idea and flesh it out on his behalf... hence appeal to emotion / puppet master play.
(2) As for HF
I understand to an extent what you are saying; and agree there are points that HF needs to clarify.
Best lynch of the day though?? I am still not seeing it.
(3) How about we change topic.
What are your thoughts on darthfoley and mderg?
Since you like wagon timings... what do you think about rels?
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Let me try to explain why this is nonsense. Damerion lays down a long meta read, including damdred's method of looking for town d1 to narrow down to a scumread (which is true but disregards that this does not preclude Damdred from also getting slight scumreads) and adds this valley girl point:
He gets excited and uses like a lot! He's not doing that. Must be scum.
Damdred: I noticed that and have been tryin to change it.
Holyflare: you admitted to saying like a lot when you're town and you're not doing it! Scum claim!
While I can see the coincidence being suspicious hf's response is entirely disingenuous. There is no way that he thinks this makes Damdred slam dunk scum. He is not retarded.
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On January 19 2018 15:52 Mocsta wrote:Show nested quote +On January 19 2018 15:42 rsoultin wrote:On January 19 2018 15:35 Mocsta wrote:
rsoultin,
In retrospect, I would like to hear HF thoughts on my damdred observations.
Whilst I dont like HF voting damdred for behaviour instead of motive; it is also arguable I could only discern motive through a vote on behaviour.
My problem is a town or mafia HF could easily say they voted damdred because of the meta case as a prod...
where does that get us? He voted him for admitting he says like a lot and is trying to change it. Hf can say what he wants. His filter shows this to be the reason. Also, can you quote what you think is aoe? (1) Im not sure what is "aoe" If you are referring to appeal to emotion by damdred, its in my vote post... whilst brushing off damerion, he keeps trying to casually bring back to the fore mocsta/DF, without substantiating why its relevant or trying to develop it further... to me, the purpose of that is to get others to grab the idea and flesh it out on his behalf... hence appeal to emotion / puppet master play. (2) As for HF I understand to an extent what you are saying; and agree there are points that HF needs to clarify. Best lynch of the day though?? I am still not seeing it. (3) How about we change topic. What are your thoughts on darthfoley and mderg? Since you like wagon timings... what do you think about rels?
Ah. Yes that's not what I consider appeal to emotion. If he's town he knows that has not scum and wants to talk about scumreads. That's not weird to me. Your concern seems to be a lack of evidence but what would you do if you were being voted and only had slight scumreads? Invent evidence?
Well let me put it this way mocsta. I'm never voting Damdred over hf. He's not scum. I'm as certain as I can be without seeing a pm. So find me someone else. If you have no one but damdred better than hf hes my vote. Period.
I don't like rels either but I'm not as sure on him. Darth foley's recent posting makes me feel a little better about him so he's mostly null to me. Mderg is forgettable, so could be scum.
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On January 19 2018 15:53 rsoultin wrote:
Let me try to explain why this is nonsense. Damerion lays down a long meta read, including damdred's method of looking for town d1 to narrow down to a scumread (which is true but disregards that this does not preclude Damdred from also getting slight scumreads) and adds this valley girl point:
He gets excited and uses like a lot! He's not doing that. Must be scum.
Damdred: I noticed that and have been tryin to change it.
Holyflare: you admitted to saying like a lot when you're town and you're not doing it! Scum claim!
While I can see the coincidence being suspicious hf's response is entirely disingenuous. There is no way that he thinks this makes Damdred slam dunk scum. He is not retarded. Yes, this is all understood.
Changing the way we post, is behavioural... Its why I said HF voted Damdred for behaviour.
I disregard that whole argument as a case, because I too have tried changing my posting style within games. Whilst not a tell... i infer it to be a valid poke that elicited a genuine dodgy response.
Having said that, I fail to understand how everyone on the wagon must be scum.
Last i checked, there were 4 votes on damdred (if you exclude mine).. and 3 mafia.
Are you saying that all 4 mafia reside within: Damerion, Holyflare, TheTwatyEvildoer, Rels
Because I am hard green on TWAT.
That leaves your scum team as DAmerion, HF, Rels?
Please.. tell me more about Rels then.
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Lets put HF and the others aside, since they are covered to some degree.
you are hard on damdred and you think its completely OK for him to pursue a lead without evidence.
Tell me, does this fit within your knowledge of how damdred plays?
Everything about him to me reads as measured and carefully considered.. proofing before posting possibly more than twice. Everything is INTENTIONAL...
If you have this player that is known to focus on his town-reads first... why then, +1 thread sentiment with no additional reasoning or attempt to probe into me or DF further?
Is this really town play to you for a regarded player (to borrow your HF line)
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No o.o
I think I've made it abundantly clear that I think twatty is town. Damerion is probably also town for his push. I recognize enough of the meta read to believe it to be genuine. Though I don't really know damerion so that gets him a slight townread at this juncture...it's hard to read someone in a tunnel.
There's not much to say about rels really. I don't like him coming in and aggreeing on a Damdred push, and his comment that I should have been prodding Ian was annoying because it disregards we weren't both in-thread. But I really haven't seen enough from him to make a read. Null to slight scumread. In rels' case you're right. It would be almost entirely related to the wagon and it's not a lunch I'm willing to push on so little reasoning - or certainty.
Holyflare is scummy independent of who he ends up voting for.
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i be heading off now, but im disappointed we can't see eye to eye about damdred.
I will have a think about how I can communicate what I am seeing more clearly.. remember, Im not viewing damdred in isolation of a meta-case. - which you appear to be fixated with.
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On January 19 2018 16:08 Mocsta wrote:
Lets put HF and the others aside, since they are covered to some degree.
you are hard on damdred and you think its completely OK for him to pursue a lead without evidence.
Tell me, does this fit within your knowledge of how damdred plays?
Everything about him to me reads as measured and carefully considered.. proofing before posting possibly more than twice. Everything is INTENTIONAL...
If you have this player that is known to focus on his town-reads first... why then, +1 thread sentiment with no additional reasoning or attempt to probe into me or DF further?
Is this really town play to you for a regarded player (to borrow your HF line)
The short answer is yes. This is play I expect to see from a town Damdred. He's more of an analyst and kicks in stronger after the first lynch.
He usually starts with tonal impressions that aren't strong and poe's down to nulls and slight scumreads d1. Doesn't mean he never pushes a scumread, questions a null read, or even pushes a lynch quote enthusiastically if he thinks he's on to something.
It just means that generally his way one reads are pretty weak so his method usually is tofigure out who he doesn't want to lynch on d1.
I also work similarly when I don't have a strong scumread d1 so it's easy to understand where has coming from. I'm generally more aggressive and active than him about it. His activity has been spotty for quite some time.
Holyflare by contrast is an agitator as town unless he's changed very much, and Ieven if I don't agree wih his reasoning it's usually Smart. That's what I don't see here.
You say Damdred and holyflare should be evaluated equally because they're both 'good', but they're both good in different ways and to different degrees
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On January 19 2018 16:20 Mocsta wrote:
i be heading off now, but im disappointed we can't see eye to eye about damdred.
I will have a think about how I can communicate what I am seeing more clearly.. remember, Im not viewing damdred in isolation of a meta-case. - which you appear to be fixated with.
I do understand. I just all but know you're wrong without blaming you for your opinion ^^;
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To all:
I don't want to lynch Damdred. I don't think I can be talked out of this read but you can try.
I do want to lynch holyflare. Tell me why I'm wrong or vote with me.
I'd vote most players in the game over Damdred and am willing to consolidate on one of them if we can't get the holyflare lynch, but don't you all want a d1 scum holyflare lynch to display on your trophy walls? You have to admit that it's sexy 
Others I don't want to lynch:
Twatty
KSC
Mocsta
Damerion
Kmatt
I might vote some of these over Damdred, especially Kmatt given that one is especially weak, but I wouldn't be happy :/
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United Kingdom30775 Posts
On January 19 2018 15:53 rsoultin wrote:
Let me try to explain why this is nonsense. Damerion lays down a long meta read, including damdred's method of looking for town d1 to narrow down to a scumread (which is true but disregards that this does not preclude Damdred from also getting slight scumreads) and adds this valley girl point:
He gets excited and uses like a lot! He's not doing that. Must be scum.
Damdred: I noticed that and have been tryin to change it.
Holyflare: you admitted to saying like a lot when you're town and you're not doing it! Scum claim!
While I can see the coincidence being suspicious hf's response is entirely disingenuous. There is no way that he thinks this makes Damdred slam dunk scum. He is not retarded.
I didn't care about the meta read. I didn't even give it any weight at all. Damdred's responses are what clinched it. It's such a fucking random thing to coincidentally notice within the last one game that he's played with Damerion when Damerion has never mentioned it at all. It looks like Damdred gets caught on the back foot from a guy he puts a lot of weight on his reads on and then flails. "oh lol I know about that and I'm changing it despite nobody ever mentioning it ever and me playing for 5 years but somehow I realised it within 1 game with playing with you despite you not uttering a word of it"
That's so unbelievably farfetched I can't understand how anyone can brush it off.
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On January 19 2018 15:47 Mocsta wrote:Show nested quote +On January 19 2018 15:36 rsoultin wrote:
I can see why you think that. The first two were elicited by my engaging him, though. And you'll note he was singularly not constructive when I pressed for elaboration. Whether anyone else agrees or not.. I think the timezone of this game is really impacting certain hours (especially near deadline).. Where im getting at, is the first 12hours of the game was sleep time for lots of people which naturally makes sense with ppl coming in, throwing a post and then disappearing.. HF (and others) are not doing this exclusively to you.. so I shamelessly am writing off a lot of that stuff as a tell/motive. To me its only more relevant if HF was still doing this to you (i.e. prior to deadline). i.e a pattern has formed of ignoring your prodding. Show nested quote +Then you have a request for an explanation, the post that led to his shit reason for scumreading Damdred the likes of which I've seen in previous scum games of his, and a pretty innocuous question. perhaps valid.. i agree on the behaviour vs. motive part. Show nested quote +I don't call that constructive. I call that lazy at best and shallow skating by at worst. You have to understand that holyflare is considered to be one of the best players on tl. And his push on Damdred in the context of this nothingness with shit reasoning clinches it for me. i *REALLY* like this from you. I think its very townie to be offended someone you are trying to discern "treats' you that way. Whether your read is right or wrong, I do think you are taking it a little too personal, as there are plenty of reasons this could have happened that are not even mafia/town related.. but just, in-real life related. Show nested quote +Like I agree you look bad just defending yourself but your 'crazy' entrance that contributes nothing to a game that hasn't started yet with almost no one posting and you prodding people to respond to you should not be getting scum reads in my opinion. I don't like hf pointing at that. He takes my one slight townread and shits on it for poor reasons while not commenting on any of my other reads. he just made a joke about itch cream. That has obvious scum motivation if you know that I'm town. I felt I understood why HF pointed that out, and it was reinforced by Kelsier assumptino on how you may have read me.. I think Kelsier single handedly destroys your argument.
Oh, btw I'm referring to hf being unconstructive while in a conversation with me like the one I just had with you, in real-time. This has nothing to do with time slots or deadlines. He's in the same timezone as me.
Respectfully disagree on the last point as well though I understand that I read people differently and it might be a weak point of mine. I'm not looking at it in isolation though.
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United Kingdom30775 Posts
And just because I'm not posting much or am sitting along and antagonising doesn't make me mafia. It's disingenuous to say I'm one of the best players on the site (I'd argue I'm only good at playing mafia) so I'm mafia for being underwhelming and not responding. That's a bad read.
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United Kingdom30775 Posts
In fact I am almost 100% sure you used the same read on me last time?
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United Kingdom30775 Posts
On January 19 2018 17:10 Holyflare wrote:
In fact I am almost 100% sure you used the same read on me last time?
Maybe not you. Someone definitely uttered those words though.
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On January 19 2018 17:04 Holyflare wrote:Show nested quote +On January 19 2018 15:53 rsoultin wrote:
Let me try to explain why this is nonsense. Damerion lays down a long meta read, including damdred's method of looking for town d1 to narrow down to a scumread (which is true but disregards that this does not preclude Damdred from also getting slight scumreads) and adds this valley girl point:
He gets excited and uses like a lot! He's not doing that. Must be scum.
Damdred: I noticed that and have been tryin to change it.
Holyflare: you admitted to saying like a lot when you're town and you're not doing it! Scum claim!
While I can see the coincidence being suspicious hf's response is entirely disingenuous. There is no way that he thinks this makes Damdred slam dunk scum. He is not retarded. I didn't care about the meta read. I didn't even give it any weight at all. Damdred's responses are what clinched it. It's such a fucking random thing to coincidentally notice within the last one game that he's played with Damerion when Damerion has never mentioned it at all. It looks like Damdred gets caught on the back foot from a guy he puts a lot of weight on his reads on and then flails. "oh lol I know about that and I'm changing it despite nobody ever mentioning it ever and me playing for 5 years but somehow I realised it within 1 game with playing with you despite you not uttering a word of it" That's so unbelievably farfetched I can't understand how anyone can brush it off.
It doesn't make sense as a scum response, holyflare. Panic response doesn't explain it and unpanicked response explains it even less.
I get its weirdly coincidental but it's just obviously not believable.
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On January 19 2018 17:09 Holyflare wrote:
And just because I'm not posting much or am sitting along and antagonising doesn't make me mafia. It's disingenuous to say I'm one of the best players on the site (I'd argue I'm only good at playing mafia) so I'm mafia for being underwhelming and not responding. That's a bad read.
Lol what?
I expect you to want to figure out my alignment and work with me. I don't require you to be superman.
Nor do I believe for an instant that you don't consider yourself a good town player. When did that happen?
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Well pfft.
I was looking for the last time damerion played with Damdred, but now I'm not sure about damerion lol ><
In the November game he did seem to focus on Damdred but didn't seem to have a meta read like this one developed. Damdred was scum that game.
I guess my question for both Damdred and damerion is has this meta read minus the like been employed before and if so id like to see the game.
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United Kingdom30775 Posts
On January 19 2018 17:12 rsoultin wrote:Show nested quote +On January 19 2018 17:04 Holyflare wrote:On January 19 2018 15:53 rsoultin wrote:
Let me try to explain why this is nonsense. Damerion lays down a long meta read, including damdred's method of looking for town d1 to narrow down to a scumread (which is true but disregards that this does not preclude Damdred from also getting slight scumreads) and adds this valley girl point:
He gets excited and uses like a lot! He's not doing that. Must be scum.
Damdred: I noticed that and have been tryin to change it.
Holyflare: you admitted to saying like a lot when you're town and you're not doing it! Scum claim!
While I can see the coincidence being suspicious hf's response is entirely disingenuous. There is no way that he thinks this makes Damdred slam dunk scum. He is not retarded. I didn't care about the meta read. I didn't even give it any weight at all. Damdred's responses are what clinched it. It's such a fucking random thing to coincidentally notice within the last one game that he's played with Damerion when Damerion has never mentioned it at all. It looks like Damdred gets caught on the back foot from a guy he puts a lot of weight on his reads on and then flails. "oh lol I know about that and I'm changing it despite nobody ever mentioning it ever and me playing for 5 years but somehow I realised it within 1 game with playing with you despite you not uttering a word of it" That's so unbelievably farfetched I can't understand how anyone can brush it off. It doesn't make sense as a scum response, holyflare. Panic response doesn't explain it and unpanicked response explains it even less. I get its weirdly coincidental but it's just obviously not believable.
You're wrong. So very wrong. Panic absolutely explains it. He knows Damerion can just look at past games and prove it so he has to make a really unbelievable excuse.
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EPT
