• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 22:47
CEST 04:47
KST 11:47
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
Serral wins EWC 202543Tournament Spotlight: FEL Cracow 202510Power Rank - Esports World Cup 202580RSL Season 1 - Final Week9[ASL19] Finals Recap: Standing Tall15
Community News
Weekly Cups (Jul 28-Aug 3): herO doubles up6LiuLi Cup - August 2025 Tournaments4[BSL 2025] H2 - Team Wars, Weeklies & SB Ladder10EWC 2025 - Replay Pack4Google Play ASL (Season 20) Announced63
StarCraft 2
General
The GOAT ranking of GOAT rankings RSL Revival patreon money discussion thread Official Ladder Map Pool Update (April 28, 2025) Weekly Cups (Jul 28-Aug 3): herO doubles up Clem Interview: "PvT is a bit insane right now"
Tourneys
LiuLi Cup - August 2025 Tournaments WardiTV Mondays RSL Season 2 Qualifier Links and Dates StarCraft Evolution League (SC Evo Biweekly) Global Tourney for College Students in September
Strategy
Custom Maps
External Content
Mutation # 485 Death from Below Mutation # 484 Magnetic Pull Mutation #239 Bad Weather Mutation # 483 Kill Bot Wars
Brood War
General
Google Play ASL (Season 20) Announced BW General Discussion StarCraft player reflex TE scores BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ StarCon Philadelphia
Tourneys
[Megathread] Daily Proleagues KCM 2025 Season 3 [ASL20] Online Qualifiers Day 2 [CSLPRO] It's CSLAN Season! - Last Chance
Strategy
Fighting Spirit mining rates [G] Mineral Boosting Simple Questions, Simple Answers Muta micro map competition
Other Games
General Games
Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Total Annihilation Server - TAForever Nintendo Switch Thread Beyond All Reason [MMORPG] Tree of Savior (Successor of Ragnarok)
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread Vanilla Mini Mafia
Community
General
Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine US Politics Mega-thread The Games Industry And ATVI Russo-Ukrainian War Thread European Politico-economics QA Mega-thread
Fan Clubs
INnoVation Fan Club SKT1 Classic Fan Club!
Media & Entertainment
[Manga] One Piece Movie Discussion! Anime Discussion Thread [\m/] Heavy Metal Thread Korean Music Discussion
Sports
2024 - 2025 Football Thread Formula 1 Discussion TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Gtx660 graphics card replacement Installation of Windows 10 suck at "just a moment" Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
TeamLiquid Team Shirt On Sale The Automated Ban List
Blogs
[Girl blog} My fema…
artosisisthebest
Sharpening the Filtration…
frozenclaw
ASL S20 English Commentary…
namkraft
The Link Between Fitness and…
TrAiDoS
momentary artworks from des…
tankgirl
from making sc maps to makin…
Husyelt
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 648 users

Newbie Student Mafia XXVI - Page 109

Forum Index > TL Mafia
Post a Reply
Prev 1 107 108 109 110 111 158 Next
Tumblewood
Profile Joined January 2016
United States3709 Posts
June 09 2017 03:19 GMT
#2161
i take back ritoky being scum 90% of the time. it's hf and here's why:
- ritoky had grack as his #1 scumread two hours before deadline, and then claimed to have a green check on him later. much easier to not eliminate your top lynch candidate
- hf had some blue tells that any experienced scummer should have seen (among players still alive, that's ritoky, grack, and me on a good day), yet didn't die either night and wasn't roleblocked either
- hf didn't gain any advantage by hard claiming. he was hardly in danger of being lynched and still had his bullet. however, as scum he outs a blue and lynches potentially one or both blues
good times for all
Prison Break
Profile Joined April 2017
326 Posts
June 09 2017 03:20 GMT
#2162
On June 09 2017 12:13 LightningStrike wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 09 2017 12:06 Conversion wrote:
On June 09 2017 12:05 LightningStrike wrote:
On June 09 2017 12:00 Conversion wrote:
On June 09 2017 03:17 LightningStrike wrote:
If you are vig shoot into me HF or BH.
If you are a cop check into me HF or BH.
That way the game is solved easier for us.


Here's the actual quote if you want it

Me so I wouldn't be a question mark
BH so we got better info about Day 1
HF so we know if he's town or not since he plays a strong scum game.


ya but let's say the cop was BTDT and he had 5 question marks. why check you over any of the other 5?

He was having second thoughts on me I think? Just so he get a confirmed read right. At least I know PB was having second thoughts sort of about my alignment.


more as in "idk who's scum"

anyway I think HF looks good because when he retracted his blue claim I immediately thought he was still blue and just retracted it to dodge a nightkill

hard to believe everyone wanted TW dead and then switched to fidei lol, so I'll look into ritoky first

but we also have to look into the order in which the claims happened etc.
Tumblewood
Profile Joined January 2016
United States3709 Posts
June 09 2017 03:20 GMT
#2163
On June 09 2017 12:15 Conversion wrote:
really? I read through ritoky and it seems his play seems to sort of center around his checks.

Show nested quote +
On June 04 2017 14:33 ritoky wrote:
i think the town is something like; me, tube, vivax, hf; and tentatively conv and pb

fidei has like....almost exact opposite reads of me. dunno what to think about that.

reading LS mafia, what else is new for me.

btdt has done nothing to change my opinion, still think he is probably mafia.

tw doesn't make a whole lot of sense. defending grack for ???? defending grack from spooky ghosts pushing him???? missed joke early. says "mindmeld" then doesn't say what the mindmeld was. mafia pile.

grack made a joke while being yelled at by BH, so he gets half a town point; but otherwise he hasn't done jack esp for a 2 page filter. actually i just looked at his filter and i take his half point back cuz he doesn't really have any posts pushing the game forward.

BH has been disappointing. i expected RNG -> a play or snowball it into some reads. if that was it, he could be mafia.

onegu...flip a coin.


D1 read on BTDT, claims him as scum. once he is unsure because of the emotional play, he checks BTDT, and drops the entire case on BTDT and gives small town reads on him afterwards.

D2 ritoky argues with Grack, finds him suspicious, checks him.

claims D3, confirmed cop.

either he's mindfucking me and set this up since D1 with scum, or he's actually cop. I'm inclined to believe he's more cop than HF/TW lying about their claim.

TW who did you try to save N2 and did you get RB'd?

tried to save hf and got rb'd
good times for all
Grackaroni
Profile Joined July 2011
United States9846 Posts
June 09 2017 03:21 GMT
#2164
Oh hey that's why he said that he only knew Vivax was never cop.
LightningStrike
Profile Joined February 2011
United States14277 Posts
June 09 2017 03:21 GMT
#2165
On June 09 2017 12:19 Conversion wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 09 2017 12:13 LightningStrike wrote:
On June 09 2017 12:06 Conversion wrote:
On June 09 2017 12:05 LightningStrike wrote:
On June 09 2017 12:00 Conversion wrote:
On June 09 2017 03:17 LightningStrike wrote:
If you are vig shoot into me HF or BH.
If you are a cop check into me HF or BH.
That way the game is solved easier for us.


Here's the actual quote if you want it

Me so I wouldn't be a question mark
BH so we got better info about Day 1
HF so we know if he's town or not since he plays a strong scum game.


ya but let's say the cop was BTDT and he had 5 question marks. why check you over any of the other 5?

He was having second thoughts on me I think? Just so he get a confirmed read right. At least I know PB was having second thoughts sort of about my alignment.


I mean on the flip side, he could be confident that you're mafia and is trying to figure out the second one, so he reads grack. grack turns out to be town, now he's sure you're teamed with mafia and possible +1. He's looking to see if there is any way his claim can make a possible scum realm within blue claims, so maybe he waits a little bit (or he's busy, seems like he's a busy person). he sees HF claims vigi, ritoky sees this and claims cop, mafia team is you-TW, checkmate mafia?

that might have been his thought process when making that play. so what makes you not mafia? like no offense you have 11 pages of filter and I'm not seeing you doing anything


I did try to do stuff but then got it shut down and I more of a sheeper anyways as town. Also I do see your point he could of done that but he could of also tried to make sure his read is correct first before doing. He could of done either action.
May the next light shine/Former #1 Alliance LoL fan/ Current Teamliquid LoL Fan
LightningStrike
Profile Joined February 2011
United States14277 Posts
June 09 2017 03:23 GMT
#2166
On June 09 2017 12:20 Prison Break wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 09 2017 12:13 LightningStrike wrote:
On June 09 2017 12:06 Conversion wrote:
On June 09 2017 12:05 LightningStrike wrote:
On June 09 2017 12:00 Conversion wrote:
On June 09 2017 03:17 LightningStrike wrote:
If you are vig shoot into me HF or BH.
If you are a cop check into me HF or BH.
That way the game is solved easier for us.


Here's the actual quote if you want it

Me so I wouldn't be a question mark
BH so we got better info about Day 1
HF so we know if he's town or not since he plays a strong scum game.


ya but let's say the cop was BTDT and he had 5 question marks. why check you over any of the other 5?

He was having second thoughts on me I think? Just so he get a confirmed read right. At least I know PB was having second thoughts sort of about my alignment.


more as in "idk who's scum"

anyway I think HF looks good because when he retracted his blue claim I immediately thought he was still blue and just retracted it to dodge a nightkill

hard to believe everyone wanted TW dead and then switched to fidei lol, so I'll look into ritoky first

but we also have to look into the order in which the claims happened etc.

Out of the blues that claimed TW first then HF then ritoky.
May the next light shine/Former #1 Alliance LoL fan/ Current Teamliquid LoL Fan
Prison Break
Profile Joined April 2017
326 Posts
June 09 2017 03:24 GMT
#2167
On June 09 2017 12:19 Tumblewood wrote:
i take back ritoky being scum 90% of the time. it's hf and here's why:
- ritoky had grack as his #1 scumread two hours before deadline, and then claimed to have a green check on him later. much easier to not eliminate your top lynch candidate
- hf had some blue tells that any experienced scummer should have seen (among players still alive, that's ritoky, grack, and me on a good day), yet didn't die either night and wasn't roleblocked either
- hf didn't gain any advantage by hard claiming. he was hardly in danger of being lynched and still had his bullet. however, as scum he outs a blue and lynches potentially one or both blues


If HF was scum he thought vivax was real because the redcheck was real

If vivax was real and about to die he didn't have to counterclaim to out a blue either because TW + vivax + HF is already 3 blues

I'm not sure if the claim changed anything other than vivax rescinding immediately and HF after that as well. If HF wasn't in danger why would he fake? vivax was already "outing" the blue, idk if HF's claim changed anything there
Grackaroni
Profile Joined July 2011
United States9846 Posts
June 09 2017 03:25 GMT
#2168
Tumblewood automatically starts off as the most likely liar since we're still two lynches away from LYLO and the other two claimed from positions where they weren't under too much pressure while he claimed at the end of the day as the vote leader.
Conversion
Profile Joined April 2010
United States3308 Posts
June 09 2017 03:27 GMT
#2169
OK here's the way I'm seeing it:

Ritoky is actually cop. Reading through his filter and his claim, the play makes sense. It backs mafia into a corner because now they have to scramble to justify their fake blue claim and try to sheep town onto the correct claim.

So it's basically HF vs Ritoky. Ritoky is very much likely to die N3 I think. If I was scum, I'd want to shoot Ritoky or RB him (if there is a roleblocker) to prevent any more information getting out for D4, otherwise we can just leave the blue shit behind us and find the last mafia and have ritoky check HF or TW and town wins the game. Obviously mafia won't do that, so we should focus on this day figuring out who is scummates with HF or TW, and lynching him.

I might be wrong, but I think mafia may try to tunnel all their focus on pushing the focus of D3 into who is the blue claim liar, and try to misdirect town into mislynching the correct blue claim and killing off ritoky. I think that's the best mafia player here, which is why I suggest we pressure non-blue claimed players and finding the last scummate. More likely than not whoever is mafia is going to either fight really hard to keep attention off his last scummate, or bus him and try to play out of a 50/50 lynch chance with 4 townies and 1 scum.

Any thoughts? I may be missing something
Conversion
Profile Joined April 2010
United States3308 Posts
June 09 2017 03:28 GMT
#2170
EBWOP: HF vs TW, not Ritoky. oops
Prison Break
Profile Joined April 2017
326 Posts
June 09 2017 03:28 GMT
#2171
On June 09 2017 12:23 LightningStrike wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 09 2017 12:20 Prison Break wrote:
On June 09 2017 12:13 LightningStrike wrote:
On June 09 2017 12:06 Conversion wrote:
On June 09 2017 12:05 LightningStrike wrote:
On June 09 2017 12:00 Conversion wrote:
On June 09 2017 03:17 LightningStrike wrote:
If you are vig shoot into me HF or BH.
If you are a cop check into me HF or BH.
That way the game is solved easier for us.


Here's the actual quote if you want it

Me so I wouldn't be a question mark
BH so we got better info about Day 1
HF so we know if he's town or not since he plays a strong scum game.


ya but let's say the cop was BTDT and he had 5 question marks. why check you over any of the other 5?

He was having second thoughts on me I think? Just so he get a confirmed read right. At least I know PB was having second thoughts sort of about my alignment.


more as in "idk who's scum"

anyway I think HF looks good because when he retracted his blue claim I immediately thought he was still blue and just retracted it to dodge a nightkill

hard to believe everyone wanted TW dead and then switched to fidei lol, so I'll look into ritoky first

but we also have to look into the order in which the claims happened etc.

Out of the blues that claimed TW first then HF then ritoky.


yes, but I mean looking at if the order gives us a better read on them. why would they do this as mafia:

TW claimed cause he was about to get lynched that day so his timing isn't giving towncreds

HF claimed for seemingly no real reason, and I keep thinking how the vivax redcheck on HF couldn't have been staged by HF so if HF is mafia it's not cause he set it up, but purely coincidence

Why does ritoky claim as mafia, did he have pressure? or does he think he can get both HF and TW killed? (not ruling that possibility out)

Prison Break
Profile Joined April 2017
326 Posts
June 09 2017 03:30 GMT
#2172
On June 09 2017 12:25 Grackaroni wrote:
Tumblewood automatically starts off as the most likely liar since we're still two lynches away from LYLO and the other two claimed from positions where they weren't under too much pressure while he claimed at the end of the day as the vote leader.


This is a good argument and where I'm currently at

Unless if Ritoky thought he could get both TW and HF lynched with a good claim
LightningStrike
Profile Joined February 2011
United States14277 Posts
June 09 2017 03:32 GMT
#2173
On June 09 2017 12:28 Prison Break wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 09 2017 12:23 LightningStrike wrote:
On June 09 2017 12:20 Prison Break wrote:
On June 09 2017 12:13 LightningStrike wrote:
On June 09 2017 12:06 Conversion wrote:
On June 09 2017 12:05 LightningStrike wrote:
On June 09 2017 12:00 Conversion wrote:
On June 09 2017 03:17 LightningStrike wrote:
If you are vig shoot into me HF or BH.
If you are a cop check into me HF or BH.
That way the game is solved easier for us.


Here's the actual quote if you want it

Me so I wouldn't be a question mark
BH so we got better info about Day 1
HF so we know if he's town or not since he plays a strong scum game.


ya but let's say the cop was BTDT and he had 5 question marks. why check you over any of the other 5?

He was having second thoughts on me I think? Just so he get a confirmed read right. At least I know PB was having second thoughts sort of about my alignment.


more as in "idk who's scum"

anyway I think HF looks good because when he retracted his blue claim I immediately thought he was still blue and just retracted it to dodge a nightkill

hard to believe everyone wanted TW dead and then switched to fidei lol, so I'll look into ritoky first

but we also have to look into the order in which the claims happened etc.

Out of the blues that claimed TW first then HF then ritoky.


yes, but I mean looking at if the order gives us a better read on them. why would they do this as mafia:

TW claimed cause he was about to get lynched that day so his timing isn't giving towncreds

HF claimed for seemingly no real reason, and I keep thinking how the vivax redcheck on HF couldn't have been staged by HF so if HF is mafia it's not cause he set it up, but purely coincidence

Why does ritoky claim as mafia, did he have pressure? or does he think he can get both HF and TW killed? (not ruling that possibility out)


I honestly thinking TW is faked due to that plus how HF did hint about being blue with how he was kept saying that TW wasn't the doctor and shit.
May the next light shine/Former #1 Alliance LoL fan/ Current Teamliquid LoL Fan
Tumblewood
Profile Joined January 2016
United States3709 Posts
June 09 2017 03:40 GMT
#2174
i keep trying to think of a sick play but none of them work with the roleblocker alive. looks like we'll have to settle this the good old-fashioned way.
---
a question for y'all: what is the advantage of claiming to get votes off of me on D1 if we go and lynch fidei anyway? consider that with my vote, grack's vote that followed mine, whoever was already on pb, and a scummate (unless you think pb is my scummate) we could have forced the switch onto pb D1 instead of fidei in the shenanny -- it's not like anyone but onegu cared enough to be picky between shenanigans.
good times for all
Conversion
Profile Joined April 2010
United States3308 Posts
June 09 2017 03:41 GMT
#2175
because you said this

On June 05 2017 08:01 Tumblewood wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 05 2017 07:58 Holyflare wrote:
half of the game has gone to bed which is why your claim was pants

the only reason they even voted you is because you didn't explain the bh thing which even vivax found weird


well if half the game has gone to bed then it seems i didn't do any harm. honestly i don't trust anyone in this game to make a good decision besides vivax, grack, and bh, even if i start shitting town rainbows. just lotsa people who read people for bad reasons. with two hours i can argue myself out of a 4-3 situation but not 6-2 without a claim

Tumblewood
Profile Joined January 2016
United States3709 Posts
June 09 2017 03:45 GMT
#2176
On June 09 2017 12:41 Conversion wrote:
because you said this

Show nested quote +
On June 05 2017 08:01 Tumblewood wrote:
On June 05 2017 07:58 Holyflare wrote:
half of the game has gone to bed which is why your claim was pants

the only reason they even voted you is because you didn't explain the bh thing which even vivax found weird


well if half the game has gone to bed then it seems i didn't do any harm. honestly i don't trust anyone in this game to make a good decision besides vivax, grack, and bh, even if i start shitting town rainbows. just lotsa people who read people for bad reasons. with two hours i can argue myself out of a 4-3 situation but not 6-2 without a claim


this completely misses the point of what i says. of course a fakeclaim allows me to survive D1, but what is the advantage of that if we lynch fidei D1 anyway? a fakeclaim as scum is always a ticking time bomb so we might as well give fidei a shot if that's really the case
good times for all
Conversion
Profile Joined April 2010
United States3308 Posts
June 09 2017 03:45 GMT
#2177
to my long post about mafia wanting to tunnel focus on lynching a blue: I made a mistake in the numbers. We're at 6-2 right now, if we lynch mafia we're at 5-1. At that point we can afford a mislynch, which puts town in a winning position if we dedicate to finding the last mafia before moving down the line between TW and HF.

Unless ritoky is bamboozling us in which case we lose, but if he's not dead N3 he's probably scum
Tumblewood
Profile Joined January 2016
United States3709 Posts
June 09 2017 03:51 GMT
#2178
On June 09 2017 12:45 Conversion wrote:
to my long post about mafia wanting to tunnel focus on lynching a blue: I made a mistake in the numbers. We're at 6-2 right now, if we lynch mafia we're at 5-1. At that point we can afford a mislynch, which puts town in a winning position if we dedicate to finding the last mafia before moving down the line between TW and HF.

Unless ritoky is bamboozling us in which case we lose, but if he's not dead N3 he's probably scum

we're at 7-2 right now and we have two mislynches to spare. if, worst case scenario, we lynch both the blues and then the scum, it's 2v1 lylo with the last scum and probably two scrubs. if we lynch one blue we have 4v1, which is not bad but again it's probably all scrubs. if we get it right the first time we're 6-1 and we have two mislynches to spare and a blue survives the NK.
as for your second thing:
if we lynch me today and ritoky doesn't die, hf could be scum and hoping to lynch him tomorrow. really not out of the question.
good times for all
Conversion
Profile Joined April 2010
United States3308 Posts
June 09 2017 03:51 GMT
#2179
d'oh I can't count apparently lol we're at 7-2
Conversion
Profile Joined April 2010
United States3308 Posts
June 09 2017 03:51 GMT
#2180
oh TW already made a post about it ok
Prev 1 107 108 109 110 111 158 Next
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Next event in 8h 13m
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
NeuroSwarm 170
RuFF_SC2 125
StarCraft: Brood War
ggaemo 82
NaDa 39
Noble 34
Backho 31
Bale 22
ajuk12(nOOB) 15
JulyZerg 12
Icarus 8
Stormgate
WinterStarcraft267
Nina225
Dota 2
monkeys_forever801
PGG 109
LuMiX1
League of Legends
JimRising 576
Other Games
summit1g25312
shahzam809
C9.Mang0192
Maynarde108
ViBE35
Organizations
Other Games
BasetradeTV35
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 17 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• Berry_CruncH338
• davetesta42
• OhrlRock 1
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• sooper7s
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Migwel
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
StarCraft: Brood War
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
• BSLYoutube
League of Legends
• Doublelift4788
• Rush1055
• Stunt179
Other Games
• Scarra994
Upcoming Events
LiuLi Cup
8h 13m
uThermal 2v2 Circuit
12h 13m
RSL Revival
23h 13m
RSL Revival
1d 7h
SC Evo League
1d 9h
uThermal 2v2 Circuit
1d 12h
CSO Cup
1d 13h
Sparkling Tuna Cup
2 days
uThermal 2v2 Circuit
2 days
Wardi Open
3 days
[ Show More ]
RotterdaM Event
3 days
Replay Cast
3 days
RSL Revival
4 days
The PondCast
6 days
Replay Cast
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

ASL Season 20: Qualifier #2
FEL Cracow 2025
CC Div. A S7

Ongoing

Copa Latinoamericana 4
Jiahua Invitational
BSL 20 Team Wars
KCM Race Survival 2025 Season 3
BSL 21 Qualifiers
uThermal 2v2 Main Event
HCC Europe
BLAST Bounty Fall Qual
IEM Cologne 2025
FISSURE Playground #1
BLAST.tv Austin Major 2025

Upcoming

ASL Season 20
CSLPRO Chat StarLAN 3
BSL Season 21
BSL 21 Team A
RSL Revival: Season 2
Maestros of the Game
SEL Season 2 Championship
WardiTV Summer 2025
Thunderpick World Champ.
MESA Nomadic Masters Fall
CS Asia Championships 2025
Roobet Cup 2025
ESL Pro League S22
StarSeries Fall 2025
FISSURE Playground #2
BLAST Open Fall 2025
BLAST Open Fall Qual
Esports World Cup 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall 2025
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.