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On October 13 2015 21:15 raynpelikoneet wrote:
I mean like if you coach mafia you are in my opinion supposed to work on what's happening in the game and more importantly what will most likely happen and discuss that and how your students will stay alive. Town is basically reactionary to what has happened, mafia is not. If you don't plan ahead you will just die most of the times.
lol tbh i think it's a mixture of both. scumteams have failed just as much by being too rigid and not able to adapt to those crazy townies as they have at not planning ahead 
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On October 13 2015 21:12 rsoultin wrote:
(also i don't actually randomize coaches cause i feel that newbies should get something out of their coaching...i'm pretty sure that bh does randomize. not 100% on that)
I've always tried to assign coaches that are on roughly the same timezone as the players and randomize with that constraint, since I feel it helps the communication (felt like that when I had coaches at least).
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I didn't know that any of the hosts randomised their coaches. I think I've only requested specific coaches twice ever, and one of those instances I didn't get the town coach I wanted because I drew mafia (duh).
Now I haven't hosted any newbies, but if I did, and if I saw an exceptional mafia coach I'd just throw that person on mafia and then try and match everyone else timezone wise. I know when Kita ran his newbies, he even listed who was coaching what faction and I figured as long as people don't talk about coaching there shouldn't be any problems. IDK. I don't understand the wifom argument if people are not allowed to discuss coaching and that rule is enforced...
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I was coached by HtS before and I can confirm that she is awesome.
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Last game I figured out three people's alignment without reading a single post in the game. 
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On October 13 2015 21:55 raynpelikoneet wrote:Last game I figured out three people's alignment without reading a single post in the game.
no i told you!
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On October 13 2015 21:56 sicklucker wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2015 21:55 raynpelikoneet wrote:Last game I figured out three people's alignment without reading a single post in the game. no i told you!
I mean the last newbie game i was coaching in...
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Finland1934 Posts
I should probably add that I'll only be able to coach if the game does not start until next week. (Promoting @ an event for the whole weekend and won't really have time off for anything else.) After that I'm good to go though.
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ill probably reg this havent got my fix yet. will wait to see when it starts tho
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On October 13 2015 21:12 rsoultin wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2015 21:06 raynpelikoneet wrote:On October 13 2015 21:04 rsoultin wrote:
i should probably apologize for that but i won't. if you're going to coach you should be willing to coach either alignment. head's up for when i host newbies again Except a bad mafia coach can lose the game if they don't know what they are doing. And coaching mafia actually requires reading the game which i am not sure if i want to do. lol makes sense still hold the same opinion, though xP (also i don't actually randomize coaches cause i feel that newbies should get something out of their coaching...i'm pretty sure that bh does randomize. not 100% on that) you and gb also aren't bad mafia coaches >>
I've coached a mafia team once. They were rekt.
Also I can't keep track of the Mafia QT... But anyway... I could coach mafia too, yeah.
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On October 13 2015 21:42 Half the Sky wrote:
I didn't know that any of the hosts randomised their coaches. I think I've only requested specific coaches twice ever, and one of those instances I didn't get the town coach I wanted because I drew mafia (duh).
Now I haven't hosted any newbies, but if I did, and if I saw an exceptional mafia coach I'd just throw that person on mafia and then try and match everyone else timezone wise. I know when Kita ran his newbies, he even listed who was coaching what faction and I figured as long as people don't talk about coaching there shouldn't be any problems. IDK. I don't understand the wifom argument if people are not allowed to discuss coaching and that rule is enforced...
as with any rule, which i'm sure you're aware, this gets broken
even if it's "enforced" there's already a problem that it was brought up at all
and then comes the balancing act of whether or not modkilling interferes too much, and whether or not people listen to warnings
plain and simple, the less people can draw from those who can't seem to follow the rules without getting their hand slapped half a dozen times, the better, imo
this came up last game. it wasn't really that game-breaking tbh but everyone who saw it thought it was which is the ironic part, so i still had to be publicly strict so that people didn't realize it was a red herring @.@
and really, we tell these newbies oh you should try at scum, etc. etc. and half our vets can't be assed to and try to avoid coaching scum? it's kinda hypocritical, isn't it? certainly not showing a good example
idk
i guess i'll keep my mafia philosophy out of the thread but lol if you're gonna coach don't be lazy i don't read the game while coaching town but that's mostly to keep my reads from infiltrating the coaching qt not because i cba to read
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On October 13 2015 23:39 rsoultin wrote:
and really, we tell these newbies oh you should try at scum, etc. etc. and half our vets can't be assed to and try to avoid coaching scum? it's kinda hypocritical, isn't it? certainly not showing a good example
Whether you would rather not coach the faction you suck at coaching has very little to do with trying far as I can see?
For someone like me who's definitely not up to par for scum coaching the only option would be not to coach at all until I can figure it out then - do we have such an abundance of coaches that only those who are good at both factions are enough?
It's not a question of "can be assed", it's a question of not wanting to sign up for a mentor role when lacking the skills for it...
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On October 13 2015 23:39 rsoultin wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2015 21:42 Half the Sky wrote:
I didn't know that any of the hosts randomised their coaches. I think I've only requested specific coaches twice ever, and one of those instances I didn't get the town coach I wanted because I drew mafia (duh).
Now I haven't hosted any newbies, but if I did, and if I saw an exceptional mafia coach I'd just throw that person on mafia and then try and match everyone else timezone wise. I know when Kita ran his newbies, he even listed who was coaching what faction and I figured as long as people don't talk about coaching there shouldn't be any problems. IDK. I don't understand the wifom argument if people are not allowed to discuss coaching and that rule is enforced... as with any rule, which i'm sure you're aware, this gets broken even if it's "enforced" there's already a problem that it was brought up at all and then comes the balancing act of whether or not modkilling interferes too much, and whether or not people listen to warnings plain and simple, the less people can draw from those who can't seem to follow the rules without getting their hand slapped half a dozen times, the better, imo this came up last game. it wasn't really that game-breaking tbh but everyone who saw it thought it was which is the ironic part, so i still had to be publicly strict so that people didn't realize it was a red herring @.@ and really, we tell these newbies oh you should try at scum, etc. etc. and half our vets can't be assed to and try to avoid coaching scum? it's kinda hypocritical, isn't it? certainly not showing a good example idk i guess i'll keep my mafia philosophy out of the thread but lol if you're gonna coach don't be lazy i don't read the game while coaching town but that's mostly to keep my reads from infiltrating the coaching qt not because i cba to read
I don't understand the phrase red herring - "smoked herring" what it has to do with rules IDK, but that aside, I agree with you, I have seen a few too many newbies get scarred by teammates (I'm not even thinking this game, I'm thinking NSM 9 I remember real well and even 12/13) not wanting or able to play scum let alone the coaches (in other newbies though, I know GB was interactive in 12). I know BH does participate fine as a mafia coach, there were a few times I requested to coach mafia but both times geript was also standing and honestly he should coach that faction over pretty much anyone else because he's just that good at it.
The only valid excuse I can think of for not wanting to coach mafia is not want to get stuck coaching potentially three players if all three players are newbies in which case, that's an easy fix - just assign two mafia coaches (Kita did this!) to the scumteam and then divide and conquer. Even better one NA/EU each if that allows, so the timezone problem is eliminated there.
And yeh, IDK how I forgot NSM 14...I even had to yell at Alex not to discuss coaches >_<
Deary me.
Personally I think the way you handled it in newbie land was fine...probably after two warnings I'd modkill in veteran games but then coaches don't exist in such games, and very rarely in themed games anyhow (the last one being Ippo).
Welp I'll stop rambling, I'm sure I'm bound to annoy someone by doing so xD
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On October 14 2015 00:04 Half the Sky wrote:
I don't understand the phrase red herring - "smoked herring" what it has to do with rules IDK
Silly silly Daniele 
That's a metaphor. <3
us talking about coaches was misleading especially from moosy in that game. what she is saying is it affects people's thinking of what the alignments are. I was misreading MD anyhow as town but that's besides the point. it could have affected what I thought of him.
if you say something misleading it is called a red herring.
I think you must be hungry...
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On October 13 2015 23:45 LoneMeow wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2015 23:39 rsoultin wrote:
and really, we tell these newbies oh you should try at scum, etc. etc. and half our vets can't be assed to and try to avoid coaching scum? it's kinda hypocritical, isn't it? certainly not showing a good example
Whether you would rather not coach the faction you suck at coaching has very little to do with trying far as I can see? For someone like me who's definitely not up to par for scum coaching the only option would be not to coach at all until I can figure it out then - do we have such an abundance of coaches that only those who are good at both factions are enough? It's not a question of "can be assed", it's a question of not wanting to sign up for a mentor role when lacking the skills for it...
there's a fair number of people who can play both alignments well enough to at least coach newbies. and i think you're forgetting that most scum teams also have vet scum players
we're not asking coaches to be "good" at scum any more than generally we tell vets they can't coach newbies because they're not "good" enough at town...we're just asking you to be more experienced than a brand new player at playing scum which i think most people who think they're good enough to coach town can achieve, don't you?
and yes i could list a fair number of people who can coach both factions just fine. this is to help new players not make them the best town or scum player overnight
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that said I had zero issues with GB as a mafia coach. we got rekt because of an afk Barakos (couldn't even get his attention via pm) or any trade-off for him getting lynched, my work schedule dicked me over completely and I failed to communicate properly what I was trying to do with n00bking during the day 3 frenzy.
wouldn't mind having a go at mafia again, I just know not to sign up for games now if I work too many overnights.
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i should probably apologize to bh for hijacking his thread with my soapbox lol >> oops
-poofs-
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On October 14 2015 00:27 rsoultin wrote:
we're not asking coaches to be "good" at scum any more than generally we tell vets they can't coach newbies because they're not "good" enough at town...we're just asking you to be more experienced than a brand new player at playing scum which i think most people who think they're good enough to coach town can achieve, don't you?
I disagree that anyone "more experienced than a brand new player" is qualified to coach.
I also disagree that to be a coach you need to be "good at XXX" since coaching and playing are quite different.
And I do note that you said "most". I assume you mean that those who don't fit inside that should not coach at all, then?
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I kinda agree with LM. Coaching has very little to do with actually playing.
On a sidenote i would love to see the roles/coach+players assigned before ~1h before the game start. One of the hardest thing for mafia (especially for newbies) is to enter the game naturally, especially if you are late (not there when the game starts). That's one of the thing that catches the most mafia on D1's. If mafia could talk about that with their coach before the game start they could probably learn something about that. It doesn't really help when someone says after the game "your opening was superscummy btw".
I think in the last 5 games i have played my initial suspicion has been right (well in that one game i suspected marv because everyone who had posted looked not scummy -- but still).
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On October 14 2015 00:38 LoneMeow wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2015 00:27 rsoultin wrote:
we're not asking coaches to be "good" at scum any more than generally we tell vets they can't coach newbies because they're not "good" enough at town...we're just asking you to be more experienced than a brand new player at playing scum which i think most people who think they're good enough to coach town can achieve, don't you?
I disagree that anyone "more experienced than a brand new player" is qualified to coach. I also disagree that to be a coach you need to be "good at XXX" since coaching and playing are quite different. And I do note that you said "most". I assume you mean that those who don't fit inside that should not coach at all, then?
unless you want to put some sort of standards for who is qualified to coach on these games (and yes there are people who i'd want to coach new players over others, obviously...i make no bones about the fact that i don't see all coaches as equal and no i don't assume that the best players make the best coaches, though the majority of the time if you genuinely can't play the alignment and aren't just lazy as shit, you probably can't teach someone else to) then the first point is moot. if we're not actively preventing veterans from coaching then it doesn't matter and anyone with more knowledge than 0 is better than nothing
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EPT
