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On October 14 2015 00:50 rsoultin wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2015 00:38 LoneMeow wrote:On October 14 2015 00:27 rsoultin wrote:
we're not asking coaches to be "good" at scum any more than generally we tell vets they can't coach newbies because they're not "good" enough at town...we're just asking you to be more experienced than a brand new player at playing scum which i think most people who think they're good enough to coach town can achieve, don't you?
I disagree that anyone "more experienced than a brand new player" is qualified to coach. I also disagree that to be a coach you need to be "good at XXX" since coaching and playing are quite different. And I do note that you said "most". I assume you mean that those who don't fit inside that should not coach at all, then? unless you want to put some sort of standards for who is qualified to coach on these games (and yes there are people who i'd want to coach new players over others, obviously...i make no bones about the fact that i don't see all coaches as equal and no i don't assume that the best players make the best coaches, though the majority of the time if you genuinely can't play the alignment and aren't just lazy as shit, you probably can't teach someone else to) then the first point is moot. if we're not actively preventing veterans from coaching then it doesn't matter and anyone with more knowledge than 0 is better than nothing
Guess we'll just have to agree to disagree then.
I'll just refrain from coaching at all until I feel qualified to coach both (all?) alignments.
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On October 14 2015 00:54 LoneMeow wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2015 00:50 rsoultin wrote:On October 14 2015 00:38 LoneMeow wrote:On October 14 2015 00:27 rsoultin wrote:
we're not asking coaches to be "good" at scum any more than generally we tell vets they can't coach newbies because they're not "good" enough at town...we're just asking you to be more experienced than a brand new player at playing scum which i think most people who think they're good enough to coach town can achieve, don't you?
I disagree that anyone "more experienced than a brand new player" is qualified to coach. I also disagree that to be a coach you need to be "good at XXX" since coaching and playing are quite different. And I do note that you said "most". I assume you mean that those who don't fit inside that should not coach at all, then? unless you want to put some sort of standards for who is qualified to coach on these games (and yes there are people who i'd want to coach new players over others, obviously...i make no bones about the fact that i don't see all coaches as equal and no i don't assume that the best players make the best coaches, though the majority of the time if you genuinely can't play the alignment and aren't just lazy as shit, you probably can't teach someone else to) then the first point is moot. if we're not actively preventing veterans from coaching then it doesn't matter and anyone with more knowledge than 0 is better than nothing Guess we'll just have to agree to disagree then. I'll just refrain from coaching at all until I feel qualified to coach both (all?) alignments.
i think the general disagreement here is what people view "qualified" as a scum coach to be
in newbie games the biggest problem for both new town and mafia players is getting townread which really isn't much different from one alignment to the next
if you get a whole team of newbies i'd understand this mentality but that's pretty rare and i think the host would know to keep it in mind when selecting coaches at that point. the vet scum can deal with strategies and night kills and the finer points of playing scum, and frankly if there are vets on the team too much interference from the scum coach in that regard isn't helpful anyway
but the simple things like looking town? if you can coach town you can coach scum. yes, it's my opinion, but i think it's one that's pretty solid tbf
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On October 14 2015 00:59 rsoultin wrote:
the vet scum can deal with strategies and night kills and the finer points of playing scum, and frankly if there are vets on the team too much interference from the scum coach in that regard isn't helpful anyway
I agree with this
i know it's not the best example given i didn't really play the last game much, but i would have been very displeased if a coach interfered or disagreed with what i said in the scumQT
there's no-one better than me (in my opinion, don't mind others disagreeing) at planning/strategising as mafia.
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On October 14 2015 01:07 marvellosity wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2015 00:59 rsoultin wrote:
the vet scum can deal with strategies and night kills and the finer points of playing scum, and frankly if there are vets on the team too much interference from the scum coach in that regard isn't helpful anyway
I agree with this i know it's not the best example given i didn't really play the last game much, but i would have been very displeased if a coach interfered or disagreed with what i said in the scumQT there's no-one better than me (in my opinion, don't mind others disagreeing) at planning/strategising as mafia.
Palmar.
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btw i'm not really following, do we have a problem with not enough coaches in general? what's the shindig?
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On October 14 2015 00:59 rsoultin wrote:
in newbie games the biggest problem for both new town and mafia players is getting townread which really isn't much different from one alignment to the next
That may be, but that isn't what in my experience the newbies ask about, though. Pretty much all of my students have just been asking how to figure out alignments of others.
Also since my way of getting townread is heavily related to showing that you're trying to solve the game, it's a bit hard to advice that to someone who genuinely isn't trying to solve the game...
On October 14 2015 01:14 marvellosity wrote:
btw i'm not really following, do we have a problem with not enough coaches in general? what's the shindig?
Nope. We're having a problem with everyone who only wants to coach a specific alignment being lazy (rather than incompetent which I'd much rather admit being because it's true).
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Yeah that's not actually what Im saying lonemeow. I'm arguing against the idea that coaching newbie players is inherently different between alignments at the starting lvl. If being a town coach is about good reads then yes there are a lot of underqualified coaches myself included
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On October 14 2015 01:11 Artanis[Xp] wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2015 01:07 marvellosity wrote:On October 14 2015 00:59 rsoultin wrote:
the vet scum can deal with strategies and night kills and the finer points of playing scum, and frankly if there are vets on the team too much interference from the scum coach in that regard isn't helpful anyway
I agree with this i know it's not the best example given i didn't really play the last game much, but i would have been very displeased if a coach interfered or disagreed with what i said in the scumQT there's no-one better than me (in my opinion, don't mind others disagreeing) at planning/strategising as mafia. Palmar.
I can't play scum with Palmar on my team.
He always starts bussing me because i say "something scummy" when everyone who is town townreads me for it...
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On October 14 2015 01:14 marvellosity wrote:
btw i'm not really following, do we have a problem with not enough coaches in general? what's the shindig?
I think there are enough coaches in general. The discussion is just that coaches are supposed to be willing to coach either alignments or not.
I have a 7/9 or 8/10 score as mafia but I was lynches in like 6 or 7, so I was doubting my ability to coach mafia.
Anyway. One thing I would like to add is that town coach QT is very straight forward. Scum QT not only involves coaching but also strategy discussion. It's like that teacher who tries to give his classes to a non-stop talking students.
Maybe having a separate QT for coaching would help?
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On October 14 2015 00:27 NocturneMage wrote:
that said I had zero issues with GB as a mafia coach. we got rekt because of an afk Barakos (couldn't even get his attention via pm) or any trade-off for him getting lynched, my work schedule dicked me over completely and I failed to communicate properly what I was trying to do with n00bking during the day 3 frenzy.
wouldn't mind having a go at mafia again, I just know not to sign up for games now if I work too many overnights.
Good to know this. Thank you 
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On October 14 2015 01:30 GlowingBear wrote:
Anyway. One thing I would like to add is that town coach QT is very straight forward. Scum QT not only involves coaching but also strategy discussion. It's like that teacher who tries to give his classes to a non-stop talking students.
Maybe having a separate QT for coaching would help?
I disagree.
I think the mafia coach should encourage their team to strategize and when the team does so, then encourage them to think if their strategy is actually good or not.
But i agree with marv, if i was mafia in a newbie game i wouldn't even want a scum coach for my team.
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United Kingdom36160 Posts
if there's enough coaches, who cares if coaches want a specific alignment?
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On October 13 2015 21:51 boxerfred wrote:
I was coached by HtS before and I can confirm that she is awesome.
Awwww...cheers. (Even if you and my other student in that game wanted to kill each other roflmao.)
On October 14 2015 00:19 NocturneMage wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2015 00:04 Half the Sky wrote:
I don't understand the phrase red herring - "smoked herring" what it has to do with rules IDK Silly silly Daniele  That's a metaphor. <3 us talking about coaches was misleading especially from moosy in that game. what she is saying is it affects people's thinking of what the alignments are. I was misreading MD anyhow as town but that's besides the point. it could have affected what I thought of him. if you say something misleading it is called a red herring. I think you must be hungry...
.....................
That's not what I got when I looked it up...sigh.
Literally I get "smoked herring that turns red"... seriously fuck the English language sometimes :/
Anyways on the topic of coaches, just my opinion, it should be on a combination of experience and want. I think in the future coaches should request in thread if they want to coach and then if they want a specific faction they should just PM the moderator and the moderator should try to do the best they can. I think there are enough who want to and that actually can coach either alignment that mafia should have someone decent each game - or even a serial killer if someone pulls a cakepie in NSM10 - that this really shouldn't be that big of an issue.
And I also agree with the thought that scum coaches shouldn't interfere with veteran scummers. If veterans want a second opinion on something that's one thing but otherwise the coaches are there for the newbies.
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To me coaching is as simple as showing newbies how to not get lynched, i.e. look town. Anything beyond that is icing. People don't become good overnight. Maybe that's oversimplistic but it's the most realistic expectation for a new player and the same for both alignments.
That said maybe i'm being too idealistic. Because I honestly feel that subpar scum play on this site is due in large part to either laziness or vets forgetting that the basics of looking town are the same for both alignments
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On October 14 2015 01:36 raynpelikoneet wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2015 01:30 GlowingBear wrote:
Anyway. One thing I would like to add is that town coach QT is very straight forward. Scum QT not only involves coaching but also strategy discussion. It's like that teacher who tries to give his classes to a non-stop talking students.
Maybe having a separate QT for coaching would help? I disagree. I think the mafia coach should encourage their team to strategize and when the team does so, then encourage them to think if their strategy is actually good or not. But i agree with marv, if i was mafia in a newbie game i wouldn't even want a scum coach for my team.
I also think this, but sometimes questions and answers are lost in a clusterfuck of messages in a scum QT that sometimes the coach can't miss.
Having separate QTs (one for the scum team to discuss and one for the scum team to interact with the coach) would help organise things. This doesn't mean the coach must not have access to the scum QT. He could still help the newbies with that, but posting in a separate QT.
Anyway, just a suggestion.
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On October 14 2015 01:27 rsoultin wrote:
Yeah that's not actually what Im saying lonemeow. I'm arguing against the idea that coaching newbie players is inherently different between alignments at the starting lvl. If being a town coach is about good reads then yes there are a lot of underqualified coaches myself included
See, it's not about good reads either, it's about giving advice that can lead to reads. I'll freely admit that I can't put most of the advice I give as coach into practice myself.
There's also all the overall strategy aspect that goes with coaching the scum team that I don't really have a good idea on so I would not be qualified to help with that.
But as said, I'm not volunteering to coach anymore so don't worry.
And I'm sorry for getting a bit heated here, but you did call me lazy hypocrite for doing what I thought was doing the right thing so I hope you understand why I got a bit ruffled.
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On October 14 2015 01:30 GlowingBear wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2015 01:14 marvellosity wrote:
btw i'm not really following, do we have a problem with not enough coaches in general? what's the shindig? I think there are enough coaches in general. The discussion is just that coaches are supposed to be willing to coach either alignments or not. I have a 7/9 or 8/10 score as mafia but I was lynches in like 6 or 7, so I was doubting my ability to coach mafia. Anyway. One thing I would like to add is that town coach QT is very straight forward. Scum QT not only involves coaching but also strategy discussion. It's like that teacher who tries to give his classes to a non-stop talking students. Maybe having a separate QT for coaching would help?
Kitaman has already done this for his newbies - when I was mafia in his games - we had our own coaching QT as individual scummers and then the scum coaches also shared the scum QT with us. So they could talk our individual strategies with us in our individual QT and then team strategy/mislynches/nightkills were discussed in the collective mafia QT.
This was also helpful in the event scummers had problems/conflicts/disagreements with each other - whilst not the case in any of my scumteams it could prove helpful in certain situations. And it also reduced the clutter in the mafia QT as well.
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meh LM... From what i know you are a good coach and shouldn't quit doing it.
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On October 14 2015 02:00 raynpelikoneet wrote:
meh LM... From what i know you are a good coach and shouldn't quit doing it.
100%
I think if people have a preference one way or another just PM the moderator and let the hosting team sort it out. Keep it simple, really.
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EPT
