A 13-player game, and the order of things happened like this:
Scumteam: Vivax, Vayne, GlowingBear (their QT )
D1 - LS is lynched (typical; LS is a classic mislynch) N1 - Artanis[Xp] is shot by the vigi, Palmar is shot by Scum (Palmar is a pretty normal shot) D2 - Oatsmaster (watcher) is lynched N2 - sicklucker (!!!!) is shot, instead of Holyflare or WoS D3 - GB the GF is lynched N3 - Koshi the Vigi is shot (forced, IIRC) D4 - loafery is modkilled, Vivax is lynched N4 - Holyflare is shot
There are some interesting things Vivax said in the scum QT, and I remember reading through this QT and thinking his philosophy of NKs is a little strange. Anyone who has played with me knows that generally I think the best strategy is to always shoot the most dangerous player— whoever is towniest and has best analysis— so that you enter endgame with just lynchbait. Vivax, though, wrote things like this:
“More worried about Wave, Palmar isn't doing anything. Just that Wave has a good shot at being jailed” (he was overridden on this; and yes, he’s trying dodge a blue but the point is there) “Better to fight and shit up the thread than goig down silently.” “Can we kill SL?”
Now some people are talking about SL potentially being the vigi here right, but there’s no vigi vlaim (And the vigi is in fact Koshi) I But basically the NKs are:
1. Palmar (best player in that game; definitely a good N1 shot, but this was opposed by Vivax) 2. sicklucker (attempting to snipe the 1-shot vigi over the much more dangerous HF 3. Koshi (vigi shot, forced 4. HF, but only after Vivax is lynched, and after his lynch vayne pushed through a HF shot with no opposition.
So this seems really small, but basically GlowingBear, who was also active in that QT, laid out a plan of killing WoS, Onegu, Hf, or SL. WoS and HF are both better players than SL. In general though, all of these are above SL in priority (even if the Onegu idea is a bit WTF) and vivax just asks for an SL kill.
I just recall it seeming really really strange that HolyFlare lived so long. WAveofShadow is never killed either. By the start of D4, this was a game where the kills were pretty “WTF” and I am reminded of it.
It’s worth noting that Vivax DOES Submit the nks for his team in Gaiden 2, a game that included lots of “heavyweights” like Palmar and Marvellosity, all of whom need like, immediate shooting if you’re scum. Scum had 2 NKs during N1, and here’s what Vivax submitted:
Like, when these flips happened, we saw posts like:
On August 29 2015 07:02 Trfel wrote: Hm....
Interesting.
On August 29 2015 07:03 KelsierSC wrote: ummm
going to sleep, reading again tomorow
On August 29 2015 07:03 justanothertownie wrote: Thanks mafia. Shooting WoS was nice.
On August 29 2015 07:04 Trfel wrote: I don't know what that means at all.
I guess it makes sense if justanothertownie is scum, or if mafia wanted to kill WaveofShadow instead of justanothertownie for some reason.
Though it’s worth noting KSC was scum, these posts are telling. It sounds familiar, doesn’t it?
In general, besides ignoring the NK, most people thought these nks were pretty strange— and they were! If scum had been shooting at the towniest players, they may have won. Vivax must have some strange philosophy about how NKs should work, and I think this explains a lot of what we’ve been scratching our heads over this game with night actions. Obviously, yes, all NK shit is WIFOM, but these NKs have been pretty bizarre. We may already think Vivax is scum, but this really falls into place.
Basically, I’ve kinda been bashing my head against the wall all game with these NKs. Marv N1— okay, okay. Fine. Even if he was angry, I guess. Rayn N2? What? Xat N3, hmm, he was townie but not that… ritoky N4?
And now here we are. Marv, Rayn, Xat, Ritoky, all really non-standard nks. Yes, Marv and rayn are both vets, but at the time I can’t imagine anyone here thought they were threats to scum or leading town in any significant way. Normally, you come to a LYLO like this with one obviously scummy player and feel just a little bit nervous, right? Like “hmm, am I playing into scum hands and lynching someone who seems too scummy?” Because typically, I guess… I guess I expect LYLO to always be a shitshow, cause scum usually have NKs that make sense, right?
In any case, I guess what I’m getting at here is that we have this really strange pattern of NKs, and It’s been bothering me, at least a little bit, basically all game. I think this is just Vivax at play though. Yes, Marv and Rayn LOOK like normal NKs, but we all remember what they were like before they were shot. I think we’re really on the right track here with Vivax, based on how he picks his nightkills historically.
And btw BH I medic dodged in that game and my team was oks with it, I didn't just send the NKs in over their heads.
That's one of the worst examples of meta I've seen. Like, what's the point there? Proving I'm scum cause the NKs in this game are in some sort of way "weird"?
No they're not weird at all, the first two guys who got killed in this game had me as town and GB/maybe Chrom/maybe gumshoe as scumreads.
It's hilarious that those very same dudes who managed to read me on effort and strongheadedness (or w/e it's called) alone (cause that's an actually good metaread) would be on my hitlist D1 and GB nowhere near it with his apparently so great reads.
The challenge in this game right now is to actually get you to look at each other without the constant thought in your head that I am scum for sure cause it's simply not true.
Why do you have to look at each other and comment on that?
Cause I got no real slamdunk idea on who is scum right now and I need help from volunteers. I can't solve this game alone, I've been just feeling outplayed for days and I'm paranoid about all of you.
And btw BH your meta analysis is actually a point in my defense cause marv and rayn are dangerous players when they don't get mad about obnoxious/lazy/crazy players and Xata, the third, had a massive filter.
At best the ritoky NK was weird cause he really quit playing the game altogether since the Onegu kill and all he did was keep spamming how confirmed he was. And besides I really wanted to lynch him so the NK felt to me like "nope, wrong again bro" and I just wanted to bite my own ass at that point.
I don't even know where to start looking for the last mafia and I will do it tomorrow anyway, sober.
One important point is that it's probably the guy who was most right and survived the longest, still. Bolded for importance. We're looking for someone who was more right and more townie than marv or rayn since the game started, probably included scum in his lists but always pursued somebody else until he had to vote them, and who has always been buddy buddy with the other two townies.
On November 06 2015 08:00 Vivax wrote: The challenge in this game right now is to actually get you to look at each other without the constant thought in your head that I am scum for sure cause it's simply not true.
Why do you have to look at each other and comment on that?
Cause I got no real slamdunk idea on who is scum right now and I need help from volunteers. I can't solve this game alone, I've been just feeling outplayed for days and I'm paranoid about all of you.
the problem with this is its exactly what scum would want us to do in a strong position -_- kill ourselves. Townies have the power of ignorance, were in they can come up with bullshit cases that they know 100 percent are the truth, when in fact are just theories at best. Basically yeh, who know the honest gospel, cannot bring thyself to concoct bullshit in the face of nigh overwhelming fact, and hope that we of lesser knowing can do what you cannot.
You call us biased, but the truth is your the one whose view point is fixed / : You see the situation so clearly, you cant actually concoct a case that makes sense, like a patron whose tasted such fine delights he no longer can bring himself to enjoy the flavor of based bacon, BACON. But your downfall shall be that we are now much the same,
Afterall, what lies can sate men who have tasted a desired truth far beyond their most cherished fantasies?
You rely on us cracking in the absence of absolute clarity, but it shall not be so chocolate man, it shall not, be so.
On November 06 2015 08:11 Vivax wrote: And btw BH your meta analysis is actually a point in my defense cause marv and rayn are dangerous players when they don't get mad about obnoxious/lazy/crazy players and Xata, the third, had a massive filter.
At best the ritoky NK was weird cause he really quit playing the game altogether since the Onegu kill and all he did was keep spamming how confirmed he was. And besides I really wanted to lynch him so the NK felt to me like "nope, wrong again bro" and I just wanted to bite my own ass at that point.
I don't even know where to start looking for the last mafia and I will do it tomorrow anyway, sober.
One important point is that it's probably the guy who was most right and survived the longest, still. Bolded for importance. We're looking for someone who was more right and more townie than marv or rayn since the game started, probably included scum in his lists but always pursued somebody else until he had to vote them, and who has always been buddy buddy with the other two townies.
I called hopeless/onegu day fucking 1. I was right about rayn, gb, xata, ritoky, marv slam, (Though I did go back and forth a bit on rit and chrom) and of course I am right about you.
basically
'I wouldn't say I'm the best,' she said, 'but I can't think of anyone better, I have to say.'
besides I've already locked you in for single combat so don't go dodging me mang : P
See, I've been keeping my mind open as much as possible as I've been rereading the game; that's the entire reason I've been rereading rather than just voting Vivax. The fact is though, both BH and gumshoe have done a lot of things that I think are very unlikely to come from being mafia with Onegu/Hopeless, in addition to posting lots of analysis and being interested in figuring out the game.
When I get somebody to muse with me about situations where I'm not mafia instead of just reflecting everything I write back at me, I am in a position where we actually scumhunt instead of having you continuing to kick the guy who's already down.
I don't know how many lylos you played but it's usually where you want to have different camps and not just one.
For example we have 3 players right now, 1 mafia among them, and me being an uncontested lynch. We need an advocatus diaboli to make this two sided, cause the game isn't over and you should still go over it. I wouldn't even be writing all this if I weren't a mislynch. But little can I do if the 2 remaining townies and the mafia keep repeating how they won't change their mind.
If you're good at this game and also know you can be wrong, you would have to help me make this a day where decisions are actually being made and not just followed through with.
Let's go for a round of actually considering alternatives:
This was written when Slam had 5 votes on him after gumshoe posted an initial team of Xata/hopeless/Onegu. He was indeed town jesus! Yet starting from these reads he kept changing them for strange reason and based on what others said.
On October 24 2015 00:42 gumshoe wrote: Basically the people I would want to see lynched
Onegu-hopeless (both are interchangeably useless to me)
yamato-gb (these two are a matching pair, yamatos read on him was felt so accurate he is ether just right and awesome, or mafia taking advantage of gb being wrong about vivax)
probably wouldn't vote for anyone else outside these 4.
On October 24 2015 04:27 gumshoe wrote: Onegu might be town, hes very soft in pushing his reads but we agree on several accounts. Gonna unvote.
Chrom feels pretty active/emotional, dont wanna lynch him.
Rayn strikes me as sincere but misguided, exactly how I would imagine a townie. We have expectations of veteran players, but truth is bieng right from the get go in a game of mafia can be more about luck than anything else. So no, I wont vote him today.
Slam is playing too sensible, dont wanna discourage this by killing him.
gb is town, unless hes scum with slam his reactions plus the way he protected him take him totally off my list.
I kind of need yam to answer mah questions before I can say anything else.
Today I'd be willing to lynch Ritoky, who has totally disappeared and needs to be on more peoples radar. 20 hours as of right now since he last posted.
Hopeless is also a target, but everyone seems to magically think hes town so I guess he gets a pass.
On October 24 2015 02:55 Onegu wrote: So after catching up.
Marv is more active but still useless... Like really the best a town marv has is pushing a slam lynch. I guess he pushes GB. Hrmmm guess that is alot more than his last few games.
I think gumshoe is falling into the onegu rule.
Rayn is like 90% of his town meta.
Yamato did some stuff looked townie.
GB rolled my RnG.
Havent seen BH again since the start. IIRC he had some reads other than his RnG lynch. Townish I think.
Hopeless said he was going to lynch me for being useless I told him good luck, he didnt bite at the bait. Not looking good. IE rels in rayns game.
I have forever given up on attempting to read slam. Would lynch or wouldnt lynch. Not really top priority.
Xata many reads, big filter. he is like 99% town. Rayn my friend you should get off of this one.
UMMM... Who else.... Oh chrome completely forgettable. Scum read.
Vivax will trust yamato's read on him for now.
Ummm.....
No more Mabs or Town! since my rant post it must have worked.
Damn I am good at this game.
You all call me useless but then you all know my reads are normally right on. Unless they are completely wrong. It is never a mix of right and wrong. And I am more right than wrong.
On October 24 2015 02:57 Onegu wrote: Ritoky...
No read.
Must be scum because I forgot about him.
Now you can just compare reads to see if what gum was saying was truthful... GB and yamato Rngd and townread by Onegu, so gumshoe couldn't agree with it. Gumshoe himself falling under the 1gu rule and not ask him wtf that means, also agreeing with that. And Xatalos 100 % town, who was one of gum's initial scumreads.
So I assume this was gum early bussing his really useless mafia partners, then changing his mind when rayn and marv pushed for the slam lynch and GB made his dumb push on me.
BH is also town jesus early on. Proposed shenannies on 1gu on D1 and on hopeless D2.
And Chrom obviously is a decent town but not really town jesus.
On October 25 2015 05:27 Chromatically wrote: I guess here's my basic idea right now:
Xatalos gumshoe ritoky yamato marv Vivax
BH Hopeless Onegu rayn
GB
I feel pretty confident the top group is town, and I wanted to put rayn in the bottom group on feel but I haven't looked into it enough to feel comfortable saying that right at this moment. Been spending my time mostly on GB.
So you are 3 dudes who got all the right scumreads and still survived over ritoky and Xata. You are all alive cause you look damn similar, if somebody can find mafia it's much easier from your position than from mine.
I am quite the underdog just cause I've been wrong on so many things that you can't believe that I wouldn't try to gain an advantage in any way from my knowledge of the game.
On November 06 2015 18:31 Vivax wrote: Let's go for a round of actually considering alternatives:
This was written when Slam had 5 votes on him after gumshoe posted an initial team of Xata/hopeless/Onegu. He was indeed town jesus! Yet starting from these reads he kept changing them for strange reason and based on what others said.
On October 24 2015 00:42 gumshoe wrote: Basically the people I would want to see lynched
Onegu-hopeless (both are interchangeably useless to me)
yamato-gb (these two are a matching pair, yamatos read on him was felt so accurate he is ether just right and awesome, or mafia taking advantage of gb being wrong about vivax)
probably wouldn't vote for anyone else outside these 4.
On October 24 2015 04:27 gumshoe wrote: Onegu might be town, hes very soft in pushing his reads but we agree on several accounts. Gonna unvote.
Chrom feels pretty active/emotional, dont wanna lynch him.
Rayn strikes me as sincere but misguided, exactly how I would imagine a townie. We have expectations of veteran players, but truth is bieng right from the get go in a game of mafia can be more about luck than anything else. So no, I wont vote him today.
Slam is playing too sensible, dont wanna discourage this by killing him.
gb is town, unless hes scum with slam his reactions plus the way he protected him take him totally off my list.
I kind of need yam to answer mah questions before I can say anything else.
Today I'd be willing to lynch Ritoky, who has totally disappeared and needs to be on more peoples radar. 20 hours as of right now since he last posted.
Hopeless is also a target, but everyone seems to magically think hes town so I guess he gets a pass.
On October 24 2015 02:55 Onegu wrote: So after catching up.
Marv is more active but still useless... Like really the best a town marv has is pushing a slam lynch. I guess he pushes GB. Hrmmm guess that is alot more than his last few games.
I think gumshoe is falling into the onegu rule.
Rayn is like 90% of his town meta.
Yamato did some stuff looked townie.
GB rolled my RnG.
Havent seen BH again since the start. IIRC he had some reads other than his RnG lynch. Townish I think.
Hopeless said he was going to lynch me for being useless I told him good luck, he didnt bite at the bait. Not looking good. IE rels in rayns game.
I have forever given up on attempting to read slam. Would lynch or wouldnt lynch. Not really top priority.
Xata many reads, big filter. he is like 99% town. Rayn my friend you should get off of this one.
UMMM... Who else.... Oh chrome completely forgettable. Scum read.
Vivax will trust yamato's read on him for now.
Ummm.....
No more Mabs or Town! since my rant post it must have worked.
Damn I am good at this game.
You all call me useless but then you all know my reads are normally right on. Unless they are completely wrong. It is never a mix of right and wrong. And I am more right than wrong.
Now you can just compare reads to see if what gum was saying was truthful... GB and yamato Rngd and townread by Onegu, so gumshoe couldn't agree with it. Gumshoe himself falling under the 1gu rule and not ask him wtf that means, also agreeing with that. And Xatalos 100 % town, who was one of gum's initial scumreads.
So I assume this was gum early bussing his really useless mafia partners, then changing his mind when rayn and marv pushed for the slam lynch and GB made his dumb push on me.
The bolded makes no sense, as I came right around to lynching onegu to spare slam and rayn who I read as town, and I was defending gb -_- and wasnt even coming after you at the time.
id get behind an onegu lynch to spare slam and rayn, also in these posts he calls hopeless and ritoky scum for super vauge reasons. Found this kinda townie when I saw it? more to do with my fantasy mafia team than anything else but the reads were so weak they might not actually count against it.
as for onegu rule, I assumed it was the same as any stupid slam/coag rule that magically makes them unlychanble, I always find those kinds of things total bullshit and didn't bother asking at the time cause I didn't want to even acknowledge it thereby giving it any credit whatsoever.
On November 06 2015 18:17 Vivax wrote: When I get somebody to muse with me about situations where I'm not mafia instead of just reflecting everything I write back at me, I am in a position where we actually scumhunt instead of having you continuing to kick the guy who's already down.
I don't know how many lylos you played but it's usually where you want to have different camps and not just one.
For example we have 3 players right now, 1 mafia among them, and me being an uncontested lynch. We need an advocatus diaboli to make this two sided, cause the game isn't over and you should still go over it. I wouldn't even be writing all this if I weren't a mislynch. But little can I do if the 2 remaining townies and the mafia keep repeating how they won't change their mind.
If you're good at this game and also know you can be wrong, you would have to help me make this a day where decisions are actually being made and not just followed through with.
if your good you also know when to trust your strengths and accept the obvious. My strengths are town reads, not scum reads, my town reads on bh and chrom are some of the strongest I've ever had. I have an insane rate of accuracy whenever I defend someone in gb like fashion and bh/chrom rise above even that / :
Also there actually is plenty of evidence against you, so those two put together basically eliminate all my doubts.
I will continue to reflect everything back at you because I don't think we need two camps / : I think that's exactly what scum needs, so forgive me for not entertaining your proposal.
question vivax, do you think the no shot was the best choice for today?
On November 06 2015 08:00 Vivax wrote: The challenge in this game right now is to actually get you to look at each other without the constant thought in your head that I am scum for sure cause it's simply not true.
Why do you have to look at each other and comment on that?
Cause I got no real slamdunk idea on who is scum right now and I need help from volunteers. I can't solve this game alone, I've been just feeling outplayed for days and I'm paranoid about all of you.
So before reading this post I was thinking "hmm, it sounds like Vivax is more interested in finding out who is lynchable than who is scum. he doesn't seem to care WHO is lynched, and instead is trying to feel out who it is possible to lynch as long as it's not him" which seems pretty untownlike.
On November 07 2015 02:28 Chromatically wrote: Vivax, what's your order of who you think is the most to least scummy right now?
Yeah Vivax, right now it sounds like this is Gumshoe you're most willing to lynch, is this an accurate summary of your scumread?
On November 06 2015 08:00 Vivax wrote: The challenge in this game right now is to actually get you to look at each other without the constant thought in your head that I am scum for sure cause it's simply not true.
Why do you have to look at each other and comment on that?
Cause I got no real slamdunk idea on who is scum right now and I need help from volunteers. I can't solve this game alone, I've been just feeling outplayed for days and I'm paranoid about all of you.
So before reading this post I was thinking "hmm, it sounds like Vivax is more interested in finding out who is lynchable than who is scum. he doesn't seem to care WHO is lynched, and instead is trying to feel out who it is possible to lynch as long as it's not him" which seems pretty untownlike. Reading it did not change my opinion.
On November 07 2015 02:28 Chromatically wrote: Vivax, what's your order of who you think is the most to least scummy right now?
Yeah Vivax, right now it sounds like this is Gumshoe you're most willing to lynch, is this an accurate summary of your scumread?
Haha, I think we got it basically covered. Vivax is putting in the token effort, and I applaud him for that. I'm even around to chat with or listen to him, since you know, that's just what you DO, but I'm feeling pretty good about things. I'm actually really happy with how this game has turned out, since TL Mafia has had a lot of rage, inactivity, etc recently. Although there was definitely some of both here, there was a solid core of people working to figure out the game and we did it without the help of blue roles or any of that. Good player list helped there.
On November 07 2015 02:28 Chromatically wrote: Vivax, what's your order of who you think is the most to least scummy right now?
I think you all played this game similarly, you probably the least, being one of those who pushed GB with quite the effort. I'd put you into the towniest spot tentatively, BH in the middle and gumshoe as the scummiest. That might change upon reread.
question vivax, do you think the no shot was the best choice for today?
It's an odd question since everyone agreed it was. It just makes it harder for everyone to figure out the last maf, so yes, it was the best choice.
EPT
