[I] TLLOLOTGDTM
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Alaric
France45622 Posts
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Alaric
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Alaric
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Alaric
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Also it's fun to see Wave being called names by people other than "us". See, the dude's liked everywhere he goes! | ||
Alaric
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Alaric
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Alaric
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Alaric
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Alaric
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Actually that might be a decent idea. A learning experience of sorts: either he doesn't get lynched, and I'll know what to emulate if I want to live if I ever get accused, or he gets lynched, and we know what not to say if he flips scum, or how not to defend oneself if he flips town. I'd have said "how to recognise town" but noob scum could copy his defense too in that case, which would be misleading. More seriously, though, how do these games actually start, apart from meta stuff? There's usually hints like noise or facial expression to pick up in IRL variants. And seeing how well the whole "mass claim" strat worked out in the LoL Mafia Wave hosted and made us host, I wouldn't want to start by imitating that. Do we just accuse somebody at random and try to read how he defends himself/people talk about him? | ||
Alaric
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Alaric
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I'm a bit like ketchup at the moment, that is, Alzadar posts don't necessarily bring much (listing veterans can make sense, but how do you use the information? Sure as scum they're more dangerous on paper, but they're also more experienced as townie to help with reads), and more particularly Wave. What I mean is that I was surprised by how different his posting was from usual, esp. the assertive part since he seems quite self-conscious usually. I didn't pay attention to the Ghandi vote at first as I classified it as the usual joking around and "bullying" like Soniv did before the game started (and like we do all the time in TLLOLOTGDT). Apparently that was serious though, so, I guess we tryhard and better avoid light jokes because everything will get scrutinised? I don't see it scummy from Wave to start by accusing someone though. In my experience it just gets you lynched day 1 in IRL Werewolves but the setup's different, plus we can change votes anytime so I'll take that more as an attempt to pressure Ghandi and make him respond, help the game lift off, etc. Also that Wave is a veteran doesn't mean much, he's said often enough how bad he is at Mafia, and I don't think anyone would accuse him of having anticipated an off-topic Mafia one day and done it to make himself inconspicuous in advance. If anything I think we should focus more on Ghandi's answers than on the fact Wave accused him. I still have 2 questions though: why do you insist that we should protect you (especially if you claim you're vanilla, although we're all gonna claim that at the start anyway)? And On October 11 2014 12:10 WaveofShadow wrote: That's why we don't no-lynch. Cops have to play smart and stay alive long enough to get a bunch of checks off, and then reveal much later in the game, or they have to attempt to push a player whom they have a redcheck on without making it obvious that they have that check. As far as claiming/counterclaiming goes, I'm not going to talk about how that works because I don't want to give newer scum ideas. If there are vet scum on the team they'll know. I take the bolded part as a "I'm confident I'll live until claiming starts a few days down the line, and if there are veterans amongst the scum I'll be able to read them at that point by how they approach it". Is that what you're trying to tell us? | ||
Alaric
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Of course if he keeps posting one-liners that don't answer/contribute in another way he's going to look suspicious to me. I'd also like to know how Requizen feels about the game. It's not an accusation, but, well, you've often shown a defeatist/pessimistic attitude in the off-topic thread, and you may have gotten over it by now, but I just want to make sure you're not going to take it badly or get frustrated if someone starts questioning/accusing you? Only game I followed was the LoL Mafia (not even till the end, so verbose) and I remember gtrsrs basically afk-ing because he got sensitive over someone trying to get him lynched. Back to Wave, your point on the post I quoted is fair. It was the "if there are vets on the scum team they'll know" that made me tick, because I took it as "they'll do it and that'll make them recognisable" instead of "they'll be able to tell their teammates". However I'm not satisfied about why we should protect you. Sure if Ghandi flips scum it means you'll probably be a target and protecting the guy with good reads makes sense. But you haven't said anything so far about why you think he's scum so if he flips it'll be random chance. Also, you ask for protection at the same time as you accuse him, but we have the whole 24 hours of Night 1 to decide to protect you if he flips, right? So no need to even ask for that now, can just wait, and make your point once it happens. + Show Spoiler [Irrelevant] + I'd have nitpicked about your claim of WIFOM on the basis that you say the same "you have to protect me because scum will kill me", eg. if you're still alive and noone claims to have protected you you're likely scum, but then I realised it all hinges on the premise that Ghandi flips scum, and in that case you'd be stupid to make us lynch your own teammate, making the whole thing moot. Fuck this isn't necessarily hard but it's only the first 16 hours, there's going to be so much information to process later on. x_x In short, I see absolutely no reason to protect you until the lynch is flipped (assuming we do lynch Ghandi), and I don't like your being adamant that you found a scum without any reason given. You still strike me as townie, but I'd want your reasons for accusing Ghandi. Insisting that he's scum is odd if said reasons are "just stirring the pot to start things up" (which is a fair one in my book). TL;DR: - waiting on Ghandi posting "for real". No reads right now, but I'll be suspicious if he keeps doing one-lines - Wave sounds townie enough, but I still don't like his "protect me" command right off the bat, and how he hasn't provided any reason for Ghandi yet (but I'm still more interested about Ghandi's reaction than said reasons). - genuinely asking if Req will be fine if/when it gets "aggressive"? | ||
Alaric
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In most setups I've played it seems standard to have between 1/4th and 1/3rd of the players as scum, so I'd guess at 3~5 here. More like 3-4 because 5 in a 14-players setup seems preeeeetty scum-favoured. Also wtf why do you want me beaten up. Wave you keep pointing out that people make accusation and reads without any real argument behind it but you were the first to accuse someone (with a vote no less) and we're still waiting for any reason from you. Pot/kettle and all that. I'm not even accusing you I'm just asking for clarification, you straight want Ghandi lynched. | ||
Alaric
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Alaric
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+ Show Spoiler + - Yes scum should know each other. - Neutral toward Wave, leaning town from his last few posts. I believe we shouldn't judge him for making the first move (judging by the content, yes, but not for accusing someone just to make people move.) - Actually pretty interested in seeing Requizen play the game seriously. Leaning town for now, I want to read his opinion. - Ghandi wtf are you doing. -- 0K I was thinking "weird than MB wouldn't post yet unless it was busy, from the kind of person he appears to me I think he'd love playing these games as an opportunity to be cheeky and playful", I eat dinner, then bam biggest post so far. I'm not going to call you scum but the TVTropes link sure would deserve it. Good thing I already knew that one. More seriously, about the setup scum should know who they are, because the basic setups have scum collectively killing one person at night, so they have to be able to communicate to agree on a target + Show Spoiler + (in Thiercelieux they can even kill one of them by a majority vote, which can prove useful as a possible role is the White Wolf, which is basically a scum who can kill another scum every other night, and tries to finish the game all alone) I don't think Dandel Ion would go for a specific setup (I haven't heard of any where scum don't know each other but I assume they exist) since it's a newbie Mafia, plus the OP talks about obs and scum quicktopic so TL;DR: scum should know each other. While I'm not calling Wave scum, I see where the doubt can arise, though. All in all, he started things up with his first post, but apart from that he didn't contribute much, simply asking people questions without many reads or exposed reasonings himself, and I say that with him calling me 100% townie. I mean, sure I won't relish the trust. But what he did could be interpreted as "Well I've been outed, better do damage control by claiming I was testing the waters, and since Alaric pinned the post down I'll call him townie so he's in good mood/will toward me", and I see how people could find it suspicious. However, and especially in a newbie game, it's important to get things started, and I don't find it strange that Wave as a veteran was the one to do it. He's been more assertive in the last few posts, and I'm typing slowly, so it's all getting a bit fudged @_@ TL;DR: before the page with Moonbear's post I'd have agreed that Wave hasn't done much apart from kickstarting the game, but I think we shouldn't judge on that action and he has posted more aggressively since. Still a bit neutral. + Show Spoiler + I'm not considering the "risk" of you being scum and giving me a townie read to make me friendly toward you, mostly because Soniv seems to agree with that. And even with RNG, what are the odds of both vets being scum, to coordinate like that? So a potentially scrutinizable move that I'll let slide. On October 12 2014 03:48 Requizen wrote: Why is asking for roles scummy? Maybe people are more truthful than you'd like to believe. Voting at this stage seems dumb. No one has said anything to out themselves in any real way, other than the really long posts which make me think they're too tryhard to be Town. But I've never played TL mafia so what do I know. Aside from Moonbear, the other person I was interested in seeing posting is actually you, Requizen. I don't know if we can call it meta or what, but it's mostly that you played (and enjoyed) 999 and Virtue's Last Reward, the plots of which are basically Mafia games from what I know. When you talked about it it was mainly about some characters and their background, but I believe you liked the "puzzle" aspect of the Mafia part or you wouldn't have enjoyed the games as much. Which makes me think if you applied yourself to Mafia you could do a pretty good job of analysing things (at least the logical situations if not the people and bluffs), hopefully as a townie. Well we also know that your attention span isn't your biggest asset, so I wouldn't be surprised if you had issues feeling involved—in short, "he might like the setting but the harsh interactions may push we away from it". Considering this your shitposting/"I don't care" attitude looks genuine to me (and in line with how you usually act), so I'd classify you as town. I also want to give you a chance, eg. give you some time to find the motivation to involve yourself in the game, rather than cruise along or feel annoyed by our queries. A few pointers: - claims have already been addressed while I posted - votes are not only the tool to lynch someone, otherwise we'd just PM Dandel right before the deadline and he'd write who voted what and lynch someone. Having a vote count on your head can be threatening, especially if you're set up for lynch at a given point. That's why when someone votes against you, it's more often to gauge your reaction than to really want you dead. As people pointed out (about Wave, hue), as a vanilla townie dying in the place of a "blue" (the townies with powers iirc?) is still a better outcome for the town, so a VT aware of his has no reason to panic* : if you're getting overly defensive, does it mean you're a blue fearing the town may lose an asset, are you scum freaking out at the idea that you got caught? That's what we're looking for. Personally I'd vote sparingly to give more weight to it when I decide to vote against someone before the deadline, say if I want answers. Apparently Soniv's in the same boat. * of course newbies may not realise that VT can be treated as "meatshields", and getting lynched Day 1 is never fun so noone wants it. Why I won't read too much into someone getting sensitive over a vote. TL;DR: I think it's a genuine display of Requizen's usual personality so I lean town, plus I think he has potential for the game if he finds a spark to involve himself so I'd specifically want to avoid lynching him D1 even if he was posting suspicious stuff. Ghandieagle still hasn't said anything as to why he votes against Wave, except for a "hunch", and his posts go into a bit of all directions. That wasn't the answers or additional posts I was looking for, Ghandi, and as I said that's looking more and more suspicious to me. Then I refresh the page and see you're actually voting Cixah, specifically citing "bandwagoning" as your reason. Hoping on an already launched train (so you don't bring anything new, which means your contribution is minimal at best, unless the vote shakes things up but even that isn't reliant on you) is a really dubious move, it's like you're trying to appear scum. ... Oh wtf I refresh again and two more pages. Guys! D: Well, nothing new for Ghandieagle. So, buddy, fight for your life, not for your neighbour's death! And that means telling us why you think he's scum, not who you think is scum. | ||
Alaric
France45622 Posts
This game is torture for my inner grammar nazi. My post is also a mess despite all the TL;DR so I'll try to explain it a bit better for Req (even though I think Wave would disapprove, since I guess he'd count it as giving scum information?). You go on hunches, because people will fuck up and if they don't you want them to fuck up anyway. Once they do, you pin them to the wall and shove it under their nose and when they're unable to come up with a convincing explanation, you lynch them. There are several postulates you can follow: - scum are lurkers because they think the less they post, the less likely they are to slip up (that's where for example you can start voting against someone; if he's not afk that'll probably spring him into action as he doesn't want to die) - when you lynch a scum, you examine who was defending it. I don't have much experience so I don't know how much it holds, but in the games I've played newbie scum would sometimes try to defend their teammates for fear that they'll be in a difficult situation if one of them gets lynched. So the next day people will look at them and say "Hey they were pretty adamant in their defense of X yesterday, wonder if they're scum too". It happens rarely though, because that implies somebody talked and that's so rare in my games. T_T - on the contrary when scum talk it's not in their interest to make the game progress. They'll try to put town on the wrong tracks, push for lynching townies, or simply say a bunch of useless stuff so people lose time (and clarity of mind, there's so much to read wtf) with it, and in the meantime they can't be accused of lurking since they posted. That's Wave's beef with Moonbear for example (even moreso because Moonbear used metaphors and stuff to colour his post I'd wager). So if you want to help you can analyse people's posts, and try to formulate you deductions/hunches/"reads" in a concise way, or interrogate people you find suspicious. Basically, be proactive and efficient in hunting down scum. | ||
Alaric
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On October 12 2014 05:29 WaveofShadow wrote: Plz Alaric. I haven't done much? Even before MB's post? SO much plz. I get why (and soniv) are holding back on voting, but at the very least you do need to have some sort of direction and/or scum read to go off of. Are you leaning towards Jeff right now? if not, then who? Alright (also WTF YOU ALREADY HAVE 5 PAGES OF FILTER). + Show Spoiler [Wave part, that's secondary] + Regarding you, looking at your filter the first 3 pages don't have much. Basically, you point out some distrust of ketchup, give Soniv then me town cred, and "come clean" about your first post (though as you mentioned at that point most of us had seen through it anyway). Starting from the end of page 3 you make accusations, but Asmo's post was so obviously scummy that it didn't take much really. Req's shifty in his own confrontational ways but that's Req. And starting from page 4's second half (so after Moonbear's post) you start actually making more points rather than simply commentating "I like this post / Jeff wtf you doing", most notably toward Req and Moonbear. So... I'd say there's some substance to what I said? (Also reading your filter made me realise you seem to regularly rely on Soniv to confirm your impressions.) To be honest, I'd have read your reaction in the quoted post as suspicious hadn't you been confrontational with everyone in here already. And my town lean for you would be stronger weren't you a vet, I admit it. Generally you seem to be going back-and-forth, which leaves me puzzled at times. I assume as people get more experienced this is normal and players aren't as straight-forward, but it also makes it harder for me to interpret stuff. I guess I'll just say you still read townie to me, I'm just slowly realising that you may as bad as you told us. ;p More seriously, onto the scum reads. I'm a carebear at heart and know it sucks to die day 1 with the feeling that you didn't get to play, so I actually found it hard when I started thinking "who could make a good lynch?" earlier today, because I know every player here and it'd make me sad/"uneasy" to see whoever we lynch look bummed to go out so early. Thanksfully Ghandi's dubious behaviour made me realise that I'll have no qualms if someone's posting makes me think they deserve it. TL;DR: scum reads are - Asmodeus (main one) - Moonbear/Alzadar below, in no particular order - I'm all for lynching Leprechaun and Jeff if they make us, too. Soniv - Undecided. Like you, he waddles in and out, but it's less obvious because he doesn't post as much. Him going on Alzadar isn't suspicious because I think he's been the first one to do it? I'd add that he seems to have changed his mind, but considering how under scrutiny Alzadar is now, that may as well be a fine scum move to gtfo once he's led town onto someone. He said that he's more passive day 1 and I'm willing to believe that—with the caveat that I'll pay him a closer look after that. Alzadar - To be honest I didn't even bother with him. His list of games played had me go "wtf" but I certainly don't have the time (nor willingness) to go through past games' filters so I had a bias. Overall he seems suspicious, but with 2-3 peole on his back already I thought I was better off looking elsewhere instead of piling up on a single person. After going through his filter he seems kind of... all over the place. He has for him that he egged Moonbear early, was the first to point Cixah, and didn't panic when he was attacked (before I explained that panicking is bad, otherwise it wouldn't mean anything), on the other hand he has a bunch of tactics he mentions that seem... heavy-handed, to say the least, especially in a newbie game. Either he's scum trying hard to appear contributing, or he's very enthusiastic/eager. Is he usually as tryhard as he claimed to be in one of his first posts? ComaDose, owb - lurky lurkers lurking. Makes both of them suspicious as they basically didn't say anything, but I guess it's closer to policy lynch than scum hunches. They still have 24 hours to change that. Asmodeus - Very suspicious. Nothing too egregious after his first outburst (unlike Ghandi), but as honored I am with the town reads, once both you and Soniv gave it to me it's pretty easy for someone to be parroting the vets, and accusing Alzadar and Moonbear when it did it wasn't the hardest thing to do. Actually Soniv accused Alzadar first, and you came on pretty strong on Moonbear. He also answered with noob claims to both of you specifically. It looks like he's trying to follow the vets. Be it to make himself look inconspicuous or because he values your experiences, I'm still growing more and more suspicious of the "shitposting/fake afk-ing into parroting the vets" behaviour. Lord Tolkien - Suspicious. Not "very" this time. I mean, he's basically shitposting and asking for a policy lynch (which is the least risky way of pushing a lynch when you think about it), but after seeing how Ghandi and Req were treated he can't genuinely believe he can get away with it. So it's hard to keep suspecting him, unless I start considering that he's mindgaming us, and I don't want to go down that path (would that be a WIFOM, if I got that right?). I guess I have to assume he's "trolling"/fooling around then (which echoes what I initially wrote about Ghandi's behaviour), but still, worth keeping an eye out for later. MoonBear - Suspicious, but he hasn't said too much. Apart from his post and the way you criticised it, he asks a lot of questions on how things work. In itself I wouldn't be too surprised, and trying to make sure you know how to pull the levers at your disposal is obviously fine, but the way he does it surprises me. Maybe it's me overreading (it's not like I know him personally, mainly going from the persona he has in the off-topic thread here), but I'm waiting for him to explain himself more, the way I did for Ghandi at first. Ghandieagle - since we're here. Obviously suspicious. To be honest, I don't really want to lynch him, but he keeps jeffing things up, so if I have to actually try and/or throw my vote at him to get something more out of him, then so be it. Requizen - Uh... I think I've explained myself enough, but whatever. I think he'd be a good player, or at least an active and involved one, if he felt like it. So despite his hiccups—which are totally in line with genuine Req, reason enough for me not to accuse him (although the fact that he's easily startled plays a part in why I wouldn't jump on him first)—I think he's town. I want him to be town, actually—heck, from a spectator point of view I'd want him to stay alive even if he was scum, were it not for the fact that, well, that would obviously endanger town. At this point I'm basically playing favourites because Moonbear and him were the guys I was most looking forward to see their posts (is that even English), and since he's got no motivation/IRL activites/is slow on the startup in general, I'm trying to keep him alive to feed my curiosity/expectations later. On October 12 2014 05:42 Lord Tolkien wrote: Also 6ah, it was a super early claim. We haven't even broken 24hrs yet, and like 90% of TL mafia is played in the last 3 hours of the day. You mean 23h-2h for me? Well, fuck. x') It took me something like two hours to type all that, while doing some stuff on the side but also reading filters and refreshing the thead to take "in-between" posts into account. This game. Damn. | ||
Alaric
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The "you're bad" was an innocent jab for once, Wave, kind of "Well I'm not quite sure, so that probably means that you really aren't good otherwise you'd have already convinced me!". As for my vote, Asmo, Alzadar and Moonbear are pretty much on the grill already. I've just thrown some stuff at Asmo so there's still to see him reac tot that. Hence why I'm more looking toward Coma/owb/Ghandi/Tolkien atm (well Ghandi answered somewhat just now). ... I guess you could argue that if you grilling Alzadar then moving onto Moonbear after other people start banwagonning against him makes me weary, saying Asmo is my biggest scum read but then devoting my attention to others is hypocritical. Uh... I prob have to reconsider some stuff. Alternatively if the lurkers post I won't have to wait for them. x) | ||
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But in the end I assume that if we're tryharding then everything will be read regardless of if I sum up, use spoiler tags, or not, so might as well use TL;DR and bold to show the "important" part and make my posts more readable, while still giving you my train of thought. It also minimises the amount of posts to go through since you already got elements instead of having to go through the "opinion - why? - first reasoning post" dynamic. I sure will try to keep it shorter next time because it's pretty darn time-consuming. | ||
Alaric
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I'm happy to see Tolkien post for real... at first. I didn't like the post too much, on the plus side it helped me realise while someone (Soniv?) criticised me for responding to Wave with a "list". He's already got a few people on his back so I won't add to the bandwagon, though (that's my stance: if we look for info, esp. D1, then I'd rather consider options over going tunnel-vision on a single person). I'll just point out that his behaviour kinda resembles Wave's at the start (with the whole "I'll come clean" post), but much more extreme. (And same as I told Wave I'll keep a tab on that.) Deadline is close and I'd have preferred to do that earlier but ##Vote: AsmodeusXI I'm still not decided on you. We said we're laying newbie claims to rest so I'm not going to hold it either for you or against you. Also as I mentioned your scum reads were Alzadar (started by Soniv) and Moonbear (pointed by Wave), and when you switched your vote it was from Wave's call to Soniv's call, after an exchange with Soniv. You also didn't give reason apart from apparently agreeing with Soniv's. I have my doubts against Moonbear too but like Tolkien he's got a bunch of people on his butt and hasn't appeared (had time?) to defend himself yet, so I'll ignore his behaviour when looking at yours. So far you haven't motivated your calls much. I can get that Soniv makes a good point, but when you're already following a lot I'd like to see your own thoughts more, to show that you're not just bandwagoning and you have new stuff to contribute too. Apart from what Soniv said, what makes you suspect MoonBear? Also in a more general manner, do you think his posts about blue roles are what make him suspicious? Why? I'm not so much interested in your reads as I am in seeing how you behave "by yourself" rather than when following vets. Speaking of which, @vets, how relevant is the topic of lurkers not posting much (aside from IRL stuff) because they're newbie blues and afraid to stick their heads out and draw mafia attention? I considered that aside from lurking scum and newbie "stage fright" but I assume we should refrain from said topic until later, because it risks giving scum info/reads to work on? | ||
Alaric
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And I look silly again because MoonBear posted in the meantime. Your post doesn't really convince me though, especially the first part: "At least I tried to get useful information instead of randomly querying people" (that's the vibe I get from it), when the main thing you received flak for is that your big post spent a lot of space on Wave before saying "it doesn't matter" and shoving it aside. Your second point comes back to him though, or at least that's how I see it. Are you targeting him when you speak of "people trying to drive the town while doing nothing important"? Do you think he should be more assertive (since his biggest accusation was on you after you targeted him) if he wants to sit at the wheel? | ||
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On October 13 2014 04:13 WaveofShadow wrote: I should also mention this is pretty fucking terrible. Coma's post or Ketchup's? | ||
Alaric
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(I promise to work on my layout/concision in exchange.) | ||
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On October 13 2014 05:21 AsmodeusXI wrote: + Show Spoiler + @Alaric, I'm on MB's ass because I don't like posts lacking content, especially D1. I realize that D1 is a time of extremely little information, but there's been enough to chat about in this thread at this point that he should have an opinion on something. So far I feel I've gotten the least direction or justification from MB on anything. Even just a vote in a direction (with a reason) would help (even if it's just a no-lynch, crappy as that would be... owb), but when you're posting sans content (especially when it's long and windy like MB's was), it just makes me think you're trying to sow dissension among the loyal townie ranks. For example... On October 13 2014 03:44 MoonBear wrote: Because it's way too convenient to start picking on the people who make outlandish posts than the people actually trying to cause chaos and work against the town. The entire Day 1 has just been shifting gears around trying to accuse people over super trivial matters instead of anything important with various people trying to take control and manually drive what the town should be thinking instead of just letting it happen automatically. I don't get THIS at all. I understand the problems with D1 and all the accusations flying around. What I don't understand is what is meant by "letting it happen automatically." If we're not making cases and trying to prove something, what happens "automatically" is a shot in the dark (which statistically ends in scum's favor) or a no-lynch (which automatically ends in scum's favor). I don't like either option. If there are people trying to cause chaos/work against the town, I wanna hear who they are. As far as my reads on who they are, I'm still suspect on Tolk, but I'm not going to go on that just because the bandwagon is turning against him. I think Tolkien's thoughts made sense from his big post, so unless anyone has any further reasoning they haven't explained (Wave), then I see no reason to lynch him yet. My suspicions have risen vs. Req since he started playing for real, but that's at least partially just because he disagrees with me and that doesn't mean he's not town (much like you, Alaric). I think that Coma is dangerous lurker scum as well, perhaps more dangerous than Alz and this point since he's silently throwing votes out. On the other hand, I feel like ketchup's thoughts have been all over the place, which I don't like per se, but I can't fault him for suspecting Wave, since I'm not 100% on him either. I go back and forth on soniv and Wave and I think that only time will give me a better read on them. That being said, I don't approve of Wave's LT vote entirely. tl;dr - I'm sticking with MB for now because I've got net 0 info from him EVEN though he's put effort into this. If I can't get him lynched, then it'll have to be Coma because he's ALSO put in net 0, but a percentage of that feels like lack of effort, which is shitty but not 100% scummy. See, that's much better. I like the green-coloured part in the spoiler: that's exactly what I wanted to see from you, eg. formulating a "free" opinion rather than bounce on someone or worse, bandwagoning without talking. ##Unvote Which leaves me a bit stuck for the day, though. The bandwagon against Tolkien is weaker so I don't have qualms about looking at it anymore, but then there's the mutual unvote between Wave and him. I'm still perplexed about Tolkien, but that's less suspicious and more straight-up confused by his play. For now it looks like he was being super aggressive with Wave because he wanted a reaction more than because he was sincerely suspicious about it, as if he "faked it". Which suggests he didn't stop "trolling", he just went from "silly troll" to "aggressive troll", stirring shit up on purpose to create discussion. Trying to determine whether the discussion helps town or creates a mess. So not gonna try to lynch him for now. That leaves me with Moonbear out of my main "scum reads". I'm a bit uneasy about that because it isn't exactly a strong read either. On the other hand I'd still rather vote someone that looks weird to me than one of the afk-ers (plus I don't know if I'll be around for long, got a bit of a headache and if Coma/owb start posting more in the next 3 hours I may miss it). As Wave said with Ghandi, "you can deal with the unknowns later, but deal with the suspicious now" (I paraphrase, his defense of Ghandi was along these lines), which mainly leaves Moonbear atm. Plus I liked that you (Asmo) made a case I found plausible, so take it as a token of good will from me I guess. ##Vote: Moonbear On October 13 2014 05:36 WaveofShadow wrote: I might just sheep Alaric. We should talk bro. I laughed because when I reached that post I had already thought about Asmo's post and my reads and decided I'd go for Moonbear off of our exchange, which technically means I'm sheeping him myself for now? | ||
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I mean if Moonbear was an eager but misguided townie, I'd see nothing wrong with him making a big post (my first post that apparently pleased Wave and Asmo could have been judged as "Alaric involved toward doing nothing" had it been judged contentless too since it was pretty long), what makes me tick if how adamant he's been afterwards. Don't get me wrong, he's assertive and since one of the main critics flying around is "town is so indecisive" that's something we should value, but he at the same time asks questions on the setting and how things work, which suggests he's unsure/keeps an open mind, but when it comes to his reads/opinions/how he values his post's contribution, he's been very firm and counter-aggro'd the people criticising it (notably Wave). Why would he do that if the rest of his behaviour suggests that he's a newbie trying to figure things out? I'd have expected more of an "Ah, maybe I didn't do that completely right, I'll heed vets' remarks and reconsider then" attitude than standing his ground and firing away (not saying he should have sheeped Wave either, after all that's why I went after Asmo ). | ||
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Screw it I still haven't made dinner, gimme half a hour before next post. | ||
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See my post right after yours for a more detailed explanation. Although in retrospect I told myself that overly clinging to one's first impression and being fiercely confrontational was also something Tolkien did, and in the very same post I wrote that it made me rethink a bit if that wasn't a town move from me. Why wouldn't Moonbear benefit from the same treatment for how he behaved? It could be pointed out that both you and Tolkien have some experience under your belts, which makes me more likely to "accept" that there's a reason behind you doing that I'm too green to grasp yet. On the other hand, just because it's Moonbear's first game doesn't mean he's not maybe better at this kind of things than you. An issue for me here is that I have no idea what "serious" Moonbear is like, since he's always that jolly cheerful fellow with us in the off-topic thread (heck, even when he warns me it's more like "PSA from your friendly neighbour"!), which muddies my expectations. But in the end I said I'd rather vote for someone dubious than an afk*, so I'm looking at him right now. Moonbear, what that means is that you're close to a default lynch than a 100% scum read for me, so if you wanna stay alive it's up to you buddy! Be convincing, preferable before I go to bed. * my "policy" in terms of lynching lurkers is that I assume noone will lie and pretend they have RL stuff to justify them lurking, and Mafia's still a game in the end, so I'd rather have everyone play. It means I'm wary of lynching people who've been away for non-game reasons, while someone who participated, even if he's lynched day 1 will have at least had a go at it (syntax?). Obviously the more time passes the less it holds, and I won't be as "lenient" in that regard come day 2. Cf. the "carebear" post. | ||
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On October 13 2014 07:16 WaveofShadow wrote: I have no idea what you're talking about here. I was referring to the fact that you removed your vote from Asmo and then he goes and scums it up a little by talking about how he's giving himself and others opening to control his voting patterns rather than take responsibility for them himself. Oh. That. Well I'm not 100% sure either and I tend to be a pretty passive person in general (as in "I gather as much information as I can until I'm as sure as I think I'll ever be, and even then I have doubts"), so I'm technically still opened to "swaying" myself, as I mentioned with the "for lack of a better option". I assume it's normal for day 1, though, since even the vets are unsure? And it should be better once day 2 rolls around and we have firmer reads. Also who is BH and what's that RNG talk? | ||
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On October 13 2014 07:38 WaveofShadow wrote: Don't worry about the RNG business. And yes a lot of people are unsure, but announcing to the thread that your vote is essentially not being determined by your own ideals means that if you mislynch you don't have to be blamed for it. Dun like it. Uh... I guess I can see what you're getting at. Although in my case that means I'm going to stick to my guns (eg. Moonbear) because I value formulating one's opinion (see the whole Asmo thing) over taking the bet that Moonbear will not only bring more to the town than Ghandi (odds in his favour for this considering how "not-caring" Ghandi has seemed up to now, but that's assuming Moonbear is town to begin with which I'm doubting), but also enough that we don't feel the need to off him later (which current-not-caring Ghandi would probably require, as you pointed out, hence contributing-Moonbear would "save" us a shot/lynch). At the moment I don't feel like taking this bet is worth it. | ||
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On October 13 2014 23:55 WaveofShadow wrote: Oh hmm. I wonder why it's so quiet. Better lynch me tomorrow guys, I'm only around to spread chaos and discord. Now you sound like day 1 Req. Other than that... welp. I was going to feel bad about lynching Moonbear (although more because his post upon returning seemed to imply RL stuff in the way of him playing) but then there was this Isaac-styled Night post and I had to laugh. Damnit Dandel. I still stand by my choice not to switch my vote, not because I necessarily think Ghandi is town too but because of the mess that discussion caused. I've got some opinions, but there's potential for them to drastically change once night actions are revealed so I'll keep the analysis/"update" for tomorrow. As for what happened in-between, few things I'd like to point out: Alzadar, not that I think you defending Wave is suspicious, but at this point I don't think it'll bring much. Since our goal isn't to keep the whole town alive but to lynch scum, it's better for us to accuse than to protect. The exception is when we're close to the deadline and we believe the current lynch is a contributing certified-town; the next deadline is 50+ hours away and I personally don't think Wave's in any real danger to be lynched, so we're better off letting that slide for now. Cixah is most likely certified townie. If I understand the roles well, as scum the best he could do would be to convince a vigilante to shoot a townie tonight, then get lynched day 2 (a poisoner would be able to cancel his kill night 2 upon seeing Cixah flip red). That means we can be sure of Cixah's intentions whenever he posts, and there's never going to be any point to challenge them. However that doesn't mean that everything he says is right. I'm not saying I find your reads useless or wrong Cixah, I just want to remind people so as to reduce the chances of sheeping/bandwagoning using your certified status as an excuse. Wave, as the post I quoted indicates, you're acting a bit contrary to what I expected from you-especially because you're a vet and you've probably dealt with mafia noobs already. Could be you having a lot on your plate lately (you seemed to imply so in the offtopic GD) and I can understand that. However, if you're feeling frustrated because you're getting your experience challenged by the very ignorants you're trying to raise properly, think of it as training for the pebble's teen years. Could also be you exaggerating (because you still don't like the way we play) to amplify the whole situation and get bigger reactions from us. Your and especially Tolkien's behaviour over day 1 made me more aware of these possibilities. In that case I'm wondering what kind of reaction you're trying to cause exactly. (For the record I'm leaning toward the latter, also because being paranoid seems like a healthy mindset atm, I just wanted to make the joke. At least I didn't accuse you of WIFOMing us with the "do you think I'm good enough to mastermind you all?" instead. ;p) On October 14 2014 00:56 Requizen wrote: That said, I think my focus has been too largely on Wave lately. This in and of itself makes me think Scum, using himself as a distraction for other Scum. Time to go into filters and weed out my town. I'm a bit perplexed by the association "I pay too much attention to Wave" => "Wave is scummy". I mean, he can certainly try to manipulate people in that direction, but whether or not you fall for it depends on you more than on him, don't you think? Just a quick observation, I agree with your intention to broaden who you're looking at (waiting for a bit more Coma/mordek myself, now that owb came out the woodwork). (On that topic, filters are weird. I looked at everyone's length after people mentioned Soniv said "enough" because I thought he wasn't very present, and he's actually got 5 pages. Oo And I only have 2 myself, despite feeling like I spammed.) Fuck that post ends up revolving a bunch around Wave in the end, although indirectly. Whatever, I still think my points have value so here it is. | ||
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Also you guys keep posting stuff I'd find interesting to discuss but if I keep my detailed reads for after the night actions I don't want to clutter the thread with low-content. T_T On October 14 2014 02:14 mordek wrote: Man I almost posted saying I think I've changed my mind on LT and then he goes and posts like this again. It's discouraging. Eh. They're confusing me too but I'm thinking that this and the fact both are vets are related. They're just pushing more aggressively than us (or if they're scum, faking town behaviour better than us) but I assume that's how you're actually supposed to play Mafia. Reading between the personal attacks, they seem to say the same thing to each other, eg. "I think we're both town, but you're so bad at giving town a direction, and noone listens to me. I wish they listened to me.", Tolkien being more aggressive about it and Wave more "tired". It sends my paranoia trigger flying, but on the other hand it makes both of them focal because if you pay attention, they're both leading the game indirectly, there's so much discussion either about them, or about topics they started (sparking the question "how much of it is intentional?"). I think I'll get a much better feel for the whole game if I can settle on trusting (or not) one of them. "They make good practice for training one's critical thinking in Mafia", or something like that. Also part of why night actions are important. (This is probably a meta read on the game itself more than them as townie/scum, but since they seem to eat up so much discussion I thought I'd clarify that. I think observing them is fine for us non-vets. But going back to discussing their antagonism again and again is bad, esp. because I think we'll have trouble sorting it out quickly.) As for how you feel about the game, and especially your "the opinion of the majority affects me",+ Show Spoiler [lengthy shit] + I don't think you should worry too much. If anything, look at how much more aggressive Wave has been when he's pressing someone, compared to how he's in offtopic GD even when he's angry. It's just the game, and part of it is obviously to try and get into people's head: since we're on a clock as town (even a 48 hours one), the easiest way to do that is to shove people. There's no ill will behind it as "what's in the game stays in the game" as Wave reminded at the start. Tolkien's been really trolly and that surprised me but I won't draw conclusions about how he outside this game from that. Take it as "fake opinions" you can as such dismiss if you will. See Req, who's been sensitive and sometimes even hot-headed on some topics in the past, I was wondering how he'd handle the pression and aggression* (he gives me the impression that shoving him/trolling him in general would get old very fast and he'd have a short temper for that), and he appeared defensive day 1, and disgruntled because he didn't grasp what was going on well enough for his liking. Since he's had time to look around his posting has very much improved, I think because he got a feeling for how Mafia works (and that Tolkien's condescending trolling shouldn't be taken personally) and he's applied himself to it as, well, just a game. (Which fits how I expected him to approach Mafia's concept; and I like what I'm seeing from him so far.) * btw, someone mentioned how "pregame TS" could be scum-lingo for Soniv and Wave. They did it after I expressed my "worries" for Req's handling of the atmosphere in a very early post, I don't think they're anything to read there. They just both wondered the same and talked about it since at the core the goal is for everyone to have fun. Final point (and after that I think I'll wait for night actions because that's already lengthy "emptiness"), about Cixah and the Innocent Child: there's no need to protect him because you only hold power as long as scum doesn't know what you are. You're effectively VT (eg. VT, vigi or poisoner who already used his power, etc.)? You're ignorable (unless you're pinning every scum down accurately obv.) You're blue? Kill kill kill! That's why Cixah as innocent child could be very aggressive if he wanted to, knowing he could always claim Innocent Child if he risked getting lynched, and if scum kills him, then scum doesn't kill a blue, so it's beneficial to town. Now that he's outed, he can still be aggressive though, because we know we can believe his intentions, and scum would rather not lynch him anymore since they're rather fish for blues (I'm not sure about that, I thought scum would target accurate readers first but apparently the vets said scum would value blue kills a lot). eg. since scum shouldn't want to kill him (not because he's an innocent child, but because now they know he's an innocent child) it's not interesting to protect him. Or at least that's how I understood it. | ||
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On October 14 2014 03:17 WaveofShadow wrote: I really wish Alaric would stay and discuss shit rather than explode all over the thread and the leave to do it again. But I'm fucking slow! And you guys post so much. 0K I'll try, catching up to what was said while I was writing and cooking dinner. | ||
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On October 14 2014 04:57 WaveofShadow wrote: Soniv and ketchup have had each others' backs throughout. It's difficult because as much as I want to try and draw association there, it only leads to WIFOM. I'm more likely to believe ketchup is town because of how he went about attacking me. His stances are much more aggressive than soniv's to be sure. Let me look a little closer but from what I remember ketchup's questions actually GO somewhere. I don't think it means much though, because Tolkien and you have had each other's back in a way and it doesn't stop others from because either of you (rarely both, I'd even point out). Superficial read of the situation: - Wave and Tolkien both think they're both town, but the other do a poor job of it, and they're not followed/supported much because of the antagonising/aggressive way they go about it. Tolkien is a lot less afraid of throwing votes than Wave. - Wave and Soniv (hereafter Daddy and Mommy) got torn over the Moonbear situation, to the point that they went from agreeing with each other to Daddy wanting Mommy dead. Mommy is being shifty, antagonising Daddy much but never voting against him nor even accusing him overtly. It's a bit of a passive-aggressive, elephant in the room thing where Mommy never says "scum" but keeps nagging Daddy (and the "vote prude" post doesn't hold because for all intents and purposes it's the same as if he did). I'm not liking this situation, and I feel like shying away from it. Not because it's an established bandwagon this time, but because it's do damn confusing. If I commit to that love triangle, I can't say for sure when, or even if, I'll be able to reach a satisfactory conclusion. Moonbear ended up being kind of a "default" vote for me (the "less bad" choice while I'd rather vote against someone positively sure of) and it's not something I want to repeat, as it holds higher risks of a mislynch. It's kind of like with lurkers: you have no idea if they're scum, you just operate under the assumption that they don't help town anyway. At the moment, I'm having trouble discerning whether or not Tolkien/Wave/Soniv are trying to help town in some convoluted way that I can't grasp. + Show Spoiler [Random note] + Reading Soniv's filter made me read his posts in his voice. This game. That they're all vets doesn't help because it means they've got some experience, and even if they aren't "masterminds" like Wave said I don't want to end up second-guessing and WIFOMing myself over my read of the situation. TL;DR: I don't think lynching any of them will resolve the situation, unless he flips red. At best it would reduce the clutter in the thread. I'd rather focus on people I think would be easier to read through, eg. Asmodeus/ComaDose/mordek/Alzadar, so when the time comes to vote I can be confident instead of always wondering if I made the right read. The fact that that block doesn't post much also means it's easier to pick a lurker/non-contributor lynch from it than from the 3 geezers (and although it's possible that they're all townies and scum is owb/req/ghandi or something, I feel more confident about saying so about the 2nd group). That's not to say either that they won't have to be addressed. They will. But I feel that the probability of a fuck-up with them is so high (and we already mislynched) that even if I have my opinions about them I don't want to get near them at the moment. And as you can see this is a situation that can very easily change during the night, which is why I wanted to keep my reads to myself until the actions are resolved (I haven't said everything but there's certainly enough that scum could use to confuse me). Another thing that'd annoy me is how frisky people are toward making accusations or calling people out, outside of the tsundere league, but that'd sound a bit hypocritical from me considering I've basically spent the night saying "wait day 2 for me to take my shots". I will however press whoever hasn't been assertive enough for me once I come clear—especially in the "2nd block" I mentioned. | ||
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I don't think it means much though, because Tolkien and you have had each other's back in a way and it doesn't stop others from accusing either of you (rarely both, I'd even point out). Fuck that, I even proof-read the main body thrice. | ||
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Quick recap of my focus as I read through: "Crap, my mostly-scum red on LT was wrong - time to pressure-vote Coma, wait, he's bandwagoned on, avoid that - Asmo's next... but he just made a very sensible post - Soniv's got a good case against him but he's part of the terror trio, ugh". I'll answer a few things to sort my thoughts and decide where I go from there. -- Roles: I think speculating is no-good atm. Aside from Wave telling us what's to be expected from "standard" setups, we'd probably give scum information, especially about the vigilante since he's a one-time use. If he shot, he's a VT, and scum would gladly know that there's effectively one less blue threatening them, less so that we have a medic (I think Tolkien was killed by scum, he was polarising but at that point I think shooting Wave or Ghandi would have made more sense if you wanted to sack an "unknown"). Fwiw I didn't receive anything about being protected or shot at (was that your question, Cixah?). -- Reads I have yesterday: And that I'll spoiler because they're kinda obsolete now, ugh. + Show Spoiler + My main read was Tolkien, but because I kept doubting it (see my post on the goddamn vet trio) I didn't want to commit to any of them. He was trolling people and putting himself in the line of fire, which bred infighting and created doubt, but also compelled people to react and give information. My main argument for his towniness was that it didn't seem worth taking so much flak (and risking bandwagons against him) if he was scum, he could certainly create discord otherwise. On the other hand he was so assertive in telling us we were wrong and rubbing it into our faces that he seemed to be throwing his weight just about as much as Wave, just in a less explicit way. Basically I couldn't decide whether Tolkien was town putting himself in harm's way because he believe he was experienced enough to put a stop to a push against him, or very bold scum using our inexperience against us. Well... now I know. And I'll be curious to ask him about it after the game, because he showed so much confidence from his posting. Why he wasn't followed was because of the belittling way he made his assertions, and he must have known that as a vet- so, why did he keep doing it? At that point my "scum likeliness" scale went Tolkien > Wave > Soniv, but even Tolkien I wasn't ready to 100% commit to lynching him, hence why I wanted to examine others. Next read was Asmodeus, because even if he expresses himself he seldom posts (like me I guess), he seemed to sheep Soniv/Wave and even me (after the vets called me town) a lot, and when he first moved to Moonbear it looked more like taking someone else's idea than his own initiative. His case against Soniv made me reconsider though. I wanted to examine Coma who barely posts too. Mordek doesn't either but as much as I don't want to tunnel vision I don't want to spread too much, and Mordek contributed more lately. Then there was a bandwagon on Coma earlier today which made me not want to pile up. -- Random stuff: ketchup, I think Requizen is town. His posting at least is totally in line with what I expected from him, and as much as I hold his investigative abilities in regard, on the contrary I'm not sure how good he'd be at manipulating people (I did give him a handbook of how to look town to me in my D1 posts but I don't believe he'd have been able to manipulate me using that ). eg. he was trying to figure how the game works at first and his posting seemed different from 2nd half of D1 onward because he was getting more comfortable. Now he's involved and contributing. Req, I guess ketchup is jumping you because he has a strong town read on me. Which makes me also wonder why he didn't react at all to Wave saying I was off his list. Wave, are you saying I'm not "certified town" anymore, or do you think I'm scum? I think the former, it's just for clarification. On October 14 2014 09:38 Dandel Ion wrote: the mafia team has a magical magic ability that allows them as a team to (attempt to) kill a person every night. This is independent from their individual roles (although somebody still has to actually do it). Mod question: Does that mean if we roleblock the scum attempting the hit, the "mafia KP" won't go through either and we won't lose anyone that night? -- Noon's reads: With a perfectly timed Dandel vote post so I know who's getting bandwagoned on. Wave looks more town today because we made actual progress and as long as his post is (I had to go back and read it again while typing because I'd forgotten a bunch of it), the way he went about ketchup (and the fact that it was a roleblock claim that made him switch, a pretty set-in-stone argument) is very detailed and reasonable, that's clearly town-thinking (and you're finally being more assertive). Also that he said he thought I'd die tonight. Counterpoints to these arguments: + Show Spoiler + - he's the mafia roleblocker and made a case on ketchup knowing ketchup would smash it with just "I was roleblocked tonight", so the more effort he put into it the more towncred he gets when ketchup clears himself. - did he think I'd die because he thinks I make good points/go in the right direction? If he thinks that as scum, and wants to combine his vet status with lack of focused arguments to lead the town nowhere, then it would be weird that he didn't kill me (remove the guys who think clearly, so your shenanigans don't get exposed by contrast with them). TL;DR: if Wave being scum requires him to be trying to WIFOM us, then he's probably town. Even moreso as a vet who pointed out how ineffective WIFOM is. Asmodeus is pretty much cleared for me after his very solid case on Soniv. Not only because it's contributing (same as above, if I need WIFOM to find it weird, then it's probably genuine), but also because this time Asmo didn't use arguments gleaned other places (basically how he started against Moonbear: it was his vote, but Wave's arguments). He's autonomous, makes his own reads, and while I was very suspicious of him up to that one post, other people (like Requizen and Alzadar) have started meh before shaping up. Asmo town. It also "helps" Ghandi, in that if Soniv is indeed scum, then why would he go after Ghandi twice, and especially today and so hard? Town-Ghandi would make a good mislynch because of how hard people have been against him every time he was mentioned (Ghandi's basically the town's "default lynch until someone better shows up" at this point). If Ghandi's scum, on the other hand, then bussing him to keep Soniv alive as a vet is probably better for the mafia. Plus they switched to ComaDose afterwards so it doesn't really look like bussing. On the other hand it wouldn't make sense to panic and start bussing someone so early in the day, when votes will most likely move around. Back to neutral on Ghandi... for now. Unlikely that both Ghandi and Soniv are scum, but doesn't imply that if one flips green the other is 100% red. I was going to avoid Coma because bandwagons and he has posted but people moved toward Soniv since, and I don't like said post. He's making a list and throwing around vague information, with just the no-risk opinion of "Ghandi's the most likely scum" immediatly followed by a "... maybe. He could just be noob!", eg. Coma doesn't give reads at all and refuses to commit to anything. On the other hand, Coma was excused for the week-end and it's only been a day since, and Alzadar was singled out too for weird posting patterns of providing information but no meaningful analysis of it, and he's shaped up since. Day 2 still has 36 hours to it so it's not like I have to lynch now. However... ##Vote: ComaDose Soniv's under scrutiny already, so I'm looking at you and I want answers/contribution. Not "now" now, because I know it's stupid o'clock in Canada, but the clock is ticking and I can't be as lenient as Day 1. TL;DR: my scum reads are Soniv/ComaDose, with Mordek/Ghandi being suspicious but not as sold on them. Ketchup/Wave/Asmo/Cixah fairly town to confirmed town. Undecided on Alzadar/Req/owb. Now I'm going to go and get lunch because it's 2 PM here and writing takes some time. | ||
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I've taken some work time to write that so don't expect another post for 5-6h (I'll try to read a bit but prob not posting again till I'm home). I should post more this evening, although it's a bit hard for me because I post slowly and my ideas can be made obsolete by stuff posted while I type (so I delete then restart from scratch which delays, etc.). What do you think about my stance on Ghandi based on the current Soniv situation? Do you still want to lynch him? Sounds like you went from "I want Ghandi lynched, but if noone follows me I'm fine with Soniv; Asmo meh" to "Asmo's def town, noone touches him! Also Mommy wants Daddy dead (again)" but no word on Ghandi. | ||
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On October 14 2014 22:15 Dandel Ion wrote: if he is roleblocked, he is also blocked from carrying out the nightkill. This probably sounds inane for the current game, but I'm curious now: if there is a jailkeeper vs a non-roleblocker mafia or a serial poisoner, how do you resolve the game? The jailkeeper will block the other guy every night so he can't die, but they'll tie everyday for the lynch. | ||
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GhandiEAGLE (3): ComaDose, Lord Tolkien, MoonBear Unless you want him to call himself scum, it makes sense. However, I'm not a fan of the "no scum voted for him so he's more likely to be scum" argument to prove Ghandi scum. Sure it's less likely to happen but that doesn't automatically make him suspicious, I mean look at Asmo he's pretty town and Day 1 he had Tolkien, Wave and myself on his ass. Tolkien flipped green, I believe Wave to be town and so am I, but that doesn't trump the Soniv case Asmo made and somehow turns him scum (if anything, it just shows that we suspected him more, which is also the case for Ghandi). ComaDose, you're taking a very strong stance against Ghandi with your affirmation there: On October 14 2014 23:43 ComaDose wrote: but flipping ghandi red would be so great for my townie cred i could become like the second innocent child. Are you saying you'd be willing to be marked as scum if Ghandi flips green? | ||
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Ultimately the game is about lynching mafia, not "not making mistake" and being fine with lynching a random because you couldn't read him. 'cept for D1, but that's because it's hard to have a definite read... As for Coma: On October 15 2014 00:10 ComaDose wrote: i am referring to what wave previously pointed out that i voted for ghandi when I was unfortunately otherwise occupied and im unlikely to vote for scum. Uh... yeah. Can't really argue about that, especially since I defended the guys with the "RL stuff" card saying I wouldn't question it. You're unrelated to Ghandi, in that you aren't both scum. However Ghandi's still the "easy" solution because he's been attacked so much, and without Asmo's case on soniv (and Tolkien dying, which seems to have removed a cushion between Wave and Soniv (or just made it one less person for Wave to argue with so he does it harder with the remaining ones )) he'd still probably be the current bandwagon... alongside you. I'd say I value consistency, but your circumstances, that make your vote on Ghandi less suspicious, now say that it's not a strong vote either because you didn't have much time or material to be 100% sure of your initial call, eg. circumstances have changed between then and now. If you didn't have the convenience of Ghandi to place your vote, who would you investigate/pressure? And why? (I know the arguments against Soniv are solid but if he's your pick it's going to look like a bandwagon... ) | ||
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On October 15 2014 02:49 mordek wrote: Man this game just messes with your head. I think town needs to start voting and playing it out from there? Soniv, I just haven't felt convinced otherwise. ##Vote jcarlsoniv Na, I think most people already voted by now? Plus it's only the first part of the day, and if Day 1 is to be trusted the game gets much more heated in the last ~6 hours. There's still time to discuss things (that doesn't mean "it's fine if you don't have ideas for now", just that it's not do-or-die time yet). Which brings me to Soniv's behaviour, which surprised me a bit. You're not defending yourself at all, and apart from the last few posts (I'll come back to that) you actually pretty much ignore the attacks against you to discuss other people. Now I'm not saying it's inherently bad, I just gave it some thought and came up with a few possibilities: - you're resigned to your lynch (see last post and your "everybody seems to want me dead"). That would be pretty scummy as I figure a townie would fight to the end to try to at least force discussion and get information out for everyone to read, even if he's doomed. On the other hand I find it likely because as said it's too early in the day to bury you, and I believe yout o be tougher than that. - you're disinterested and don't care if you die. Nope. No chance in Hell. - you're not upset because you know it's early in the day and that things are as likely to swing during the next 24 hours (It's Mafia! Maybe we'll end up lynching ketchup today!). You know focusing on defending yourself would only may you look worse and you don't find that case on yourself that strong anyway. I'm leaning for the 3rd one just because you're a vet, but maybe I'm missing something. Care to tell? On October 15 2014 03:15 Requizen wrote: I didn't even know that was a thing. Ok, I guess it's a scummy move for someone who's played mafia for however many games, but you can clearly read the exchange between us (which was taking place at 1 in the morning) and realize my frustration. If not, then you can continue to ignore the evidence that is literally written down. Thing is, Req, Mafia is a game of bluff (till we can pull an Asmo and peg people on their votes with pre/post-flips). If you act impulsive you likely don't help town, so it's not a good move. Also, the whole "you can clearly (...) realise my frustration" doesn't work either, because imagine you're being pressured. Do you think it's easier for someone calm to fake frustration, or for someone stressed to pretend to remain calm and feel the pressure at all? Anyone can pretend to act irrationally against an attack (eg. frustration, annoyance, etc. like Wave did earlier) and use that to excuse their behaviour without presenting a well-mounted defense. Shove aside a good case that puts you in real danger of getting lynched is harder though, and us townies shouldn't be as pressured because, unless blue, being prepared to sacrifice ourselves for the town is par for the course. Obviously in a newbie game it doesn't hold as much, but that's why "frustrated/annoyed" responses have often been met by skepticism so far. Tolkien didn't go "fine" because people he attacked yelled at him, but because their retort included content, that he felt satisfied about. Basically (and from the impression the vets gave me) a lot of play isn't scummy so much as it is not-town play that is easily fakable and as such a potentiel scum hideout/tactic. I won't doubt Cixah telling me he's frustrated because he's confirmed townie. Someone else may just be scum faking it to try and stall. (I'm not accusing you, just trying to explain. I think I've been pretty lenient in this regard so far, because I hadn't considered it from the start till Wave got pressured, and because I'm as experience (and as such not confident) in reading through these as ketchup thinks I am. I do think your frustration was genuine too, because it lines up well with your character.) | ||
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On October 15 2014 03:39 Alaric wrote: - you're resigned to your lynch (see last post and your "everybody seems to want me dead"). That would be pretty scummy as I figure a townie would fight to the end to try to at least force discussion and get information out for everyone to read, even if he's doomed. On the other hand I find it unlikely because as said it's too early in the day to bury you, and I believe you to be tougher than that. Fuck. Also your last post actually seems to be trying to shake things up. I thought you just wanted Requizen to talk more and provide content but you know have a scum read on him? | ||
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I don't have my vote on you because we're looking for 3+ scum and you already have enough on your plate, but I've been pretty honest about Asmo's compelling case on you I think. Gotta go back and reread on Coma's explanations. | ||
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On October 15 2014 04:04 ComaDose wrote: Interestingly the people that joined the bandwagon to lynch me, like alaric and req, are at odds with soniv now making me feel like there is nothing to learn about mafia following soniv from that exchange. especially because neither of them voted for moonbear day 1. That's actually exactly why I've went to you ComaDose: because everyone's on Soniv, I don't think town would get anything from me joining the party, so I investigated other people... like you, who got left off the hook thanks to the Soniv bandwagon. Maybe I misread, but you're wrong in that I did vote Moonbear (I wasn't sure of it and I fucked up, but I still voted him). There's something from your different posts, though. You've been mentioning Soniv, Ghandi, Asmo and (more or less) Req, but when trying to draw associations, you said: - Soniv + Ghandi scum is unlikely - Soniv + Asmodeus scum is unlikely So you bring up names but then you invalidate them through associations. Are you saying that you're having trouble to commit (which is unfortunate because once someone flip it may be too late even if it gives you conclusions, if we mislynch), but that you think Soniv shouldn't be lynched? Who are your reads then? From looking at the recent posts in your filter it looks like you're leaning Ghandi+Asmo, but you're refusing to say the word. | ||
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These NA guys and their multiple timezones... | ||
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Ghandi's practicing for work commuting already, damn. :| More serious stuff before I go submarine under my blanket: the whole "distraction" Ghandi talks about, I guess I can be listed for Asmo. But both times I wanted to grill him (only voted the first one, because the 2nd was while I was catching up and he had his Soniv case in-between) he actually made a pretty sensible and well-constructed post that actually contributed. I'll admit that maybe we can look into the timing of these, and if Soniv gets lynched and flips green it'll be twice that Asmo makes the post that gives traction to a mislynch, but I don't think he'd be able to manipulate us like that as scum, especially two times in a row. Also appreciated that you get more into things, although you end up saying "the only flip that'd give us as much info as mine would be Soniv's... who happens to be the other bandwagon atm", which is a little convenient don't you think? Then again if you were trying to push your "town agenda" you told us that you'd target Wave, and I think it's pretty safe to say we aren't lynching Wave. ... Are Wave and Ghandi both planning to lynch Soniv by "default" because they can't lynch each other? x) This is feeling a little surreal. | ||
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On October 15 2014 12:38 Cixah wrote: I got to take my agression out on casting spells as a mage in shadowrun so this is going to boil down to one thing. I've been taking this game too much as puzzle and less of a series of people trying to manipulate one another. This is what I've been feeling too. I've thought about it but considered it would just clutter the thread and be harmful speculation, but since Asmo brought it up too (and now you) and Wave seems to want it discussed in the spoilered post (and scum!Wave trying to lead down a red herring isn't credible at this point), here we go. + Show Spoiler + On October 15 2014 11:12 WaveofShadow wrote: One specific section really struck me though and I'd very much like to get opinions on this. This is an entirely new POV and shows that Asmo is attempting to think about connections between scummers. Now some people including myself have pointed out that pre-flip association isn't particularly useful, and often results in confirmation bias leading you and others astray. That however, isn't my main point. My biggest problem (and it is literally a problem, because I'm not sure I can give a completely unbiased answer to it): Which alignment posts something like the bolded? Who is thinking about leaving a scum to be sacrificed? Is this something that is going on in the scum QT that Asmo is trying to 'bring to light?' Is he just thinking really critically? I am not trying to lead on any answers here, but I want opinions. I think that section of the post is the key to cracking Asmo one way or another. I'm not going to paste my reasoning as Wave seems to think that topic would give scum too many tools to play around with us, but I'm keeping it under my thumb if people think it should be laid out instead. Conclusions are: someone's lying. By this I mean not lurking, white lies, vagueness, or just leaving trails for townies to pick up, but flat-out, straight-up lying in his posts. And it makes me pretty convinced that we have a bus going on. There are so many claims that not only it's easy for anyone to hide behind one of the bandwagons, you can also pretend that "if X turns out red then I'm cleared", which are multiplicating right now. People are pretty much saying "pause my case until we can draw conclusions from a flip" which amounts to stalling the game and feels scummy right now. That's ballsy because if we read through it then scum lose at least half their numbers (2 out of 3-4) but the more I think about it, the likelier it gets. The annoying part is how the new element "someone's straight up telling lies" changes the situation for me. So far Asmo's case seemed solid, and I could get behind Requizen because all my expectations were met, and now I have to ask myself "Can I trust Asmodeus' posts? Was I wrong to evaluate Requizen as a good investigator but a poor mastermind?" and it creates uncertainty I hate having to deal with. On October 15 2014 11:34 AsmodeusXI wrote: I'm not excusing it, I'm saying I'm buying it so far. Req's posting style all over this site reads like this on his bad days, and you and I both know that. His last game went into this direction at points, and you were in it with him. You're a good enough player that if you wanted to take advantage of that, I think you could. Again, Wave wasn't the one who pointed that out. Sure he jumped on the idea, but it was Alaric's observation. Maybe Wave's collusion is hinting that he's looking to get you lynched as a scummer. Maybe it means he and Alaric are in it together for the scum glory. But I doubt it. The possibility is there and it fits with the subtlety of the scum play I'm accusing you of so far. Are you saying you're not convinced whether or not you're town? Regarding the "fake anger" thing, I wouldn't read too much into it: Wave reacted to it first, and I made pretty much the same observation by posting from the next-to-last page at the time so I hadn't read it. However it was more of a cheeky jab from me because I thought it was so obvious Soniv was exaggerating it. I was a bit surprised that Wave jumped on it that way as it made the whole "issue" seem much more serious/ground for analysis than I thought it was. Maybe I'm misguided, but that one was so obvious, I believe Soniv good enough to get some manipulation going, and do it better than that. On October 15 2014 12:47 ComaDose wrote: owb would say space jam What? On October 15 2014 12:38 Cixah wrote: I'm going to bed late again because of this thread. Completely ruining my sleep schedule for this crap . That too. Tbh I don't think I'll be around for this deadline nor the next, I've been feeling tired the last 2 days at work and I've got to fix that. I'm saying it so you don't rely on me for a last minute vote swing or whatever may come up, my vote ~2 hours before the deadline should be my definite one. | ||
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On October 15 2014 21:38 Alzadar wrote: 6 5 1 It's time to make a choice, Alaric. Coma's not being lynched today. Yup. I'd considered that before, and I don't feel like it's getting late either so I'm not gonna throw my vote for now. It is pretty much set at this point, I just want to look at things a bit still. I can always PM my vote's motivation to Dandel now, and he can confirm when I post it that I haven't changed it, if you want (and if Dandel is 0K with that?). ##Unvote And while I'm at it, mod question: can I do that? Another one: do I get the roleblocker/jailkeeper/medic interactions with the poisoner right? - medic: doesn't prevent the victim from being fed a vial. Stops the victim from dying to the poison. - roleblocker: stops the poisoner from feeding his vial (vial is lost). Doesn't prevent the poison/antidote taking effect (poison is a delayed effect, and the antidote is received by the victim, they aren't active actions). Prevents the medic from cancelling the poison. - jailkeeper: stops the poisoner from feeding his vial (vial is lost). Prevents the victim from being fed a vial (vial is lost?). Doesn't prevent the poison taking effect (it's a delayed effect, not a targeted one). Prevents the medic from cancelling the poison. | ||
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0K, time to get a vote then. At this point they're both scummy and the perspective of buses is going to make me paranoid and muddy all my previous reads, so to hell with it, I want to see what me (and town as a whole) stands to gain from these lynches. - Ghandi won't teach me anything about ComaDose. If he flips green then Coma just looks scummy for pushing so hard for a guy who was suspicious to begin with and use him as his defense. If Ghandi flips red, with the situation as it is and Coma even flinging the "I'm cleared" card it just looks like the easiest bus ever. Fuck that. - Asmodeus and Req are the two people I'm having the most trouble reading now that I've made up my mind about the plausibility of a bus, and I've already suspected Asmodeus twice, only for him to clear himself twice with a clear case on someone else. Yes Asmo, it means doing this is also a way for me to keep tabs on you. You've made a good case on Soniv which makes a red flip more likely, but if he flips green you'll have been at the foundation of two mislynches in a row, both started right after you got pressured. If Soniv flips red win for us, if he flips green I'll have my next target (and don't even think about switching your vote upon reading that). - Wave sadly hasn't been as productive as his activity may have suggested, because he spends a good half of his time being angry. Doesn't matter if genuine anger or not, since Wave's town, but as long as he's fighting his lynches and pulling his hair out he's about as useful to town as Day 1 Ghandi. However Soniv flips (and I think he's more likely to flip red, that's still the main point of a lynch), Wave will cool down and I hope he'll be able to refocus. Less nitpicking, more wallslamming. I want my TL Noir Wave PI on the case, not choking on caffeine overdose. - Even if the bus is actually between Ghandi and Soniv, then we're lynching their vet over their target practice dummy, which would hurt them ##Unvote ##Vote: Soniv TL;DR: between the 40%* scum guy who gives me a bunch of information, and the 60%* scum guy who's all alone in his corner, I take the former. If someone wants Ghandi dead today he can just shoot him (no I'm not the poisoner). * (Numbers totally arbitrary.) | ||
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The questions were out of curiosity about the mechanics (poisoner doesn't work that way in werewolves and we don't have roleblockers; werewolves actually have 0 power outside from their collective KP). I also asked about whether the jailkeeper can prevent a night kill by blocking the right guy (that one was motivated, although I'm not jailkeeper), and as a follow-up whether we'd end up with a tie if it comes down to jailkeeper vs random mafia goon. See previous post, I am not the poisoner. You're free to question me, you've missed that Requizen and Ghandi did it before though (I actually credited Req for it; same with Ghandi but I didn't say it aloud for him). EUW is down atm so even if I'll go to sleep earlier tonight I shouldn't be anywhere far during the meantime. Re: Ghandi play vs Soniv play I think it's irrelevant atm because with how the votes played out (it's 6-6 with me on Soniv, someone move off Ghandi), it's pretty much one or the other. Which means that if they're looking to survive (whether they're scum or town), they have to charge each other, creating a new bandwagon would probably not get enough traction at this point. Putting myself in their shoes as a VT (since neither of them has claimed), I don't see what other (viable) play I'd have at my disposal. It's not a good move, but I see no good move for them to play, just the more logical/least bad one. Coincidentally, because the most they can do is "avoid scum play" over "make a good play", it's super easy for scum to fake "town play" in that particular situation. I looked into both their filters but I don't see much to lean one way or the other because they're both pretty much doing the only sensible thing they can. | ||
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Ignore the last paragraph of my previous post, catching up to do. | ||
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+ Show Spoiler + what do you mean by "politician"? I assume it's not "pocketting people" since Asmo hasn't exactly done that (his big case on Soniv put people behind him but he didn't specifically try to get them). Trying not to get on the bad side of anyone, like when he always says "sorry" and backtracks if someone challenges him (unless he has backing already, like the Soniv case, again)? About the bus thing, I mentioned it because it wasn't obvious to me, I thought about it a bit before but wasn't too confident in making such a call, then when I saw Asmo's post (that you noted too) it prompted me to think about it harder. I didn't see anyone else mention it explicitly so I wanted to put it out here for everyone; when did you point it out or call it obvious? Soniv: + Show Spoiler + About the key thing, this is how I view it (from reading today's filters only): - before Ghandi switched and I voted, it was 6-5 for you. A tie would be against Ghandi I think, haven't checked hard, but iirc owb has the oldest post, and he isn't likely to switch, so for you to die people needed to switch. ComaDose certainly won't because he seems convinced that killing Ghandi will somehow clear him (and I think however Ghandi flips there are strong arguments against him either way, part of why I don't think lynching Ghandi will produce much), Cixah and ketchup don't look like they would either (ketchup offered a hand but I dunno how firm he is). That means that Wave, because he tends to be listened to, and because he's one of the rare people not completely set yet, has the power to either force a tie or break it (even more so had he known I'd vote against you, that was 6-6 but Ghandi switched while I typed). As for lynching you, sure there's a risk you'll flip green. But not only do I think it's a tiny risk, we also stand to gain much more from your flipping (whether red or green, already said I'm coming for Asmo if you flip green myself) than Ghandi's. Both your posting has been a bit poor today, but I could easily attribute that to both of you being in a kinda deadlock for more of the day; and if given more liberty, I'm much more afraid of you leading us astray than I'd be of Ghandi. Even if he's scum he doesn't push us toward wrong lynches (that pretty much everyone ignores him doesn't help). As of now we can't know which one of you is red, or if you aren't even both red (I don't see it as likely but it's not impossible), but I'm pretty damn sure one of you has to be scum, and your flip will give us more stuff to catch the remaining 2-3. Add to that that I won't be around for the deadline in case of last minute shenanigans/twist (if you want to claim do it in the next 4 hours), and that I didn't think the situation could change (I'll admit I'm wrong, the new mordek wagon proved that with a perfect timing, uh), and I didn't see the point to fish for "maybe scum" instead of "very probably scum + info on the others". If you give me a better lynch? I'll bow, and I'll switch to that. But my reasoning was (and still is, unless twists like a mordek slip or something) that it's between Ghandi and you tonight, and that you are the "better" lynch. Ghandi that's noob-claiming and we've looked at Asmo funny already for that. You're just making your situation worse, and just because I voted Soniv doesn't mean I read you as town. | ||
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On October 16 2014 03:07 GhandiEAGLE wrote: Oh good so basically TL;DR my reasons for everything is that I'm bad A lot of people are newbies in this game, but you're one of the last people not actually catching on. I don't necessarily buy that. I was talking about that post in particular. He hadn't by the time Wave talked about being the key, Mordek. After checking I think the tiebreaker is Asmodeus now who's as unlikely to switch (inb4 Asmo switches to you too), so the reason why Wave could claim to be the key remains, assuming we do end up deciding between Ghandi and Soniv. | ||
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On October 16 2014 04:46 WaveofShadow wrote: You both need to stop posting defenses and attacks of each other at this point. Right now one of you is dead and we don't know which. If you're town then what you want to do is leave behind something that will help us win the game (because you can still win after you're dead). You have 4h. Isn't that pretty much what I said by "Whatever if their posting atm is good or not, they're pretty much restricted to attack each other if they're only looking at suvival"? Or at least that we couldn't evaluate them by that metric when deciding between them (and that by keeping doing that they pretty much dug it further between only the two of them). | ||
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Which is pretty much the point I made when I avoided the bandwagons so far. I'm still unsure about Req. I mean, with the new knowledge today he's potentially less trustworthy, but I have no idea how good he could be at manipulating us. And since his posting is standard Req (and I stand by this) it'd be hard to call me "playing a role" atm. Actually it could work if you said that Req has actually been feeling fine but pretending he was "pissed/sensitive Req" at least today, but because even that Req is in line with how he behaves when he does feel like that, either he's genuine, or he's really good at playing pretend. For 1) I don't believe it, 2) isn't that WIFOM territory? Req manipulating us because he's aware of how identical his posting is to how he behaves in these situations? I'm not saying he gets a free pass. I'm saying when I think about it and look at his posting, and what I [think I] know of him, I don't believe him capable of such manipulation. | ||
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On October 16 2014 05:03 WaveofShadow wrote: Soniv did you claim VT? He said he wasn't 3P, and he certainly won't claim scum. So I guess he reserves the right to claim blue somehow? | ||
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On October 16 2014 05:18 WaveofShadow wrote: I will say this much, if he claims blue with very little time left that equates to a scumclaim for me at this point---it is absolutely not in town's interest to force the rest of town into a vote last minute without giving time to consider options. Wouldn't most people (including you) most toward Ghandi anyway if he did that? The conservative play (which isn't to say it's the best, see the prisonier's dilemma) would be to either stay on him regardless, or move onto the next "most guilty" target, since you can't be sure whether the others will switch, or where they'll go if they do. I don't know, my own read on Req is very subjective (I guess it's what Soniv called the posting-meta), but there was the start of a bandwagon on ComaDose at the beginning of the day, which gained some traction. Wouldn't he have made a better "deflection" target than Requizen then? | ||
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Basically, he wasn't "actively" suspicious at first, I only pressed him because he didn't post much and all he did was vote against Ghandi, then make posts that said "I believe Ghandi is scum, but I'm not sure! Maybe! He could just be noob, you never know!". No real direction, especially because the "Ghandi you're bad and it doesn't matter if it's bad scum or bad town because we lynch both" posts were so prevalent it wasn't hard to be wary of him. Afterwards he had these posts, were he basically went back-and-forth between Soniv and Ghandi because refusing to commit because they seemed at odd with each other. Why has he commited now? Because he was pressured and claimed that flipping Ghandi would prove him town. Basically deflecting blame under pressure and adopting a "I want to save my hide" over "I want to lynch scum" stance (the way his post reads, he'd lynch Ghandi even if he believed he was townie and a green flip would save him, it just so happened Ghandi was scum in his opinion... of course that's not what ComaDose said, but when you get such a vibe from a post then it's not a good sign). Actually, upon re-reading his filter, he also made little references to possible collusion (eg. a bus) without naming it, and in his wishy-washy "I'm not sure, it's maybe this, or its opposite, I don't know, maybe I should try something entirely different next" style. So if Ghandi flips red, we have a likely (and easy) bus, especially with the "confirmed townie" claim he attaches to it. If Ghandi flips green, then it's a push for the easy mislynch since everyone was on Ghandi's ass at one point or another. Whatever happens ComaDose reads scummy to me, and that's part of why I decided to go Soniv over Ghandi: I don't need the latter's death to be distrustful of ComaDose, while Soniv's flip is about as likely to be red, and will tell me some about Asmodeus. Asmo is still wishy-washy to me, because my doubts were mainly washed by the cases he made. 'cept, if it ends up being him sending a town Soniv to the gallows, it'll kind of invalidate the good points he had (especially as both against Moonbear then Soniv, it was his posts that started the bandwagons) and I'll come after him unless he has extremely good reasons for it. Ghandi still very high on my list. If Soniv flips green, I'll probably turn back to Ghandi too (again, I wouldn't have qualms against lynching Ghandi tonight, I just believe Soniv to be a better one overall). I'll admit I have paid very little attention to Alzadar and Mordek's filters. Haven't reread Ketchup's either apart from my earlier post to see who was susceptible to drop Ghandi for Soniv, but he's so much town that I don't feel like I need to pay attention to it. I'll look into the other 2 tomorrow. | ||
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On October 16 2014 06:05 ComaDose wrote: Im reading along im just not sure about anything. really hoping im right about ghandi. asmo would still be my third probably for the following hes been doing since he followed to moonbears death. You're never sure about anything. Except that you want Ghandi dead because "when he flips red I'll be confirmed townie, more genuine than Cixah!". Your only other read was Soniv and then you said "but not both so back to just Ghandi". That's not enough Coma. And I've been keeping tab on you for the whole day 2. | ||
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On October 16 2014 07:05 WaveofShadow wrote: ##vote: ghandiEAGLE DO we have enough time to look at the voting patterns for today/yesterday with the assumption that soniv is town? I don't, and I was about to post a wall of text to ketchup explaining which role I thought Ghandi played (TL;DR: Ghandi is at worst distraction against us, doesn't force mislynchs or anything, so he should always take the backseat compared to a "real" harmful scum read, and if we don't get any satisfactory one by the end of the day we can default to him*). Also Soniv you're pretty lucky they posted so much last page. Was about to finish it and go to bed, suddenly 2 more pages. ##Unvote ##Vote: Ghandieagle Please don't spam too much guys, I want to be able to do some work tomorrow morning. * turns out that's what happened tonight. Meh, I'd have prefered to get our "free lynch" under the thumb, but "wasting" him now is still better than a blue mislynch. | ||
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There's no reason for you to get lynched, and Soniv has a much bigger target on his face than you atm. Actually, like Soniv said, if you're VT, you'd be happy to die in his place anytime. On October 16 2014 07:16 WaveofShadow wrote: I think if Jeff flips green we flat out lose. What do you mean? We only have one blue confirmed (dunno if we have 2 or 3 total, nor how Cixah factors in all that), and Soniv prob won't get his check off tonight, but at least now that we know he's town we've got a huge contributor for D3, that we know we can trust, this time. He'll prob get at least roleblocked (unless it was a jailkeeper on ketchup) because it'd be dumb to jailkeep Soniv anyway, even if it kept him alive he'd not get a check off. But noone knows if we have a medic, especially scum, and with such an important role Soniv is an obvious target if it's the case. Can scum really gamble and try to shoot him hoping there isn't a medic in our ranks? That'd be dumb, they'd lose a whole day (even worse if Ghandi flips red). That's it, last post for the night, cya. Note for D3: I'm gonna be on Coma's and Asmo's asses. | ||
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On October 16 2014 07:19 Cixah wrote: Azladar, Mordek, and Ketchup are the only sketchy people left on my list. I really don't like it. 0K THIS IS MY LAST POST And I'll cry when I'll have to remember your answer through 100+ posts tomorrow morning. Why the heck do you think Ketchup is sketchy? Oo | ||
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On October 16 2014 07:23 WaveofShadow wrote: ALright well in theory we have what, like 3-4 people willing to switch to coma? So far not enough even if we DO decide we want to. And yeah soniv I get those feels. FUCK IT ALL ##Unvote ##Vote: ComaDose Do what you want with it. I'm totally fine with it. And I don't think it's enough to stop you (plural) from lynching Ghandi if he's your final choice either so I can leave peacefully. | ||
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On October 16 2014 08:03 Alzadar wrote: I think that role adds way too much mayhem. No actions make any sense. I played a live werewolf game once where there were actually no werewolves. The host just killed off a random person each night and then we all pointed fingers during the day. Fucking ridiculous. I haven't read anything else yet but THIS! Black Plague variant. It's super vicious because you win by asking the host if it's a Black Plague, so for most people who join these games through friends or whatever they don't know about it (they get explained the roles, not the full rules and variants), until they see their first one (and then either they lose, or someone points it out; either way they feel like they haven't contributed much). Still fun to add once in awhile and when the game's mostly people with a few under their belts though (because they will forget about it at some point anyway). 169 posts to catch up to. T_T | ||
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On October 16 2014 08:35 GhandiEAGLE wrote: God Alaric's gonna wake up to a SHITFEST lol This. WHAT THE FUCK WAS THAT NIGHT ... and right after there's another blue claim. WHAT THE FUCK ARE YOU DOING TO ME GUYS This is like I'm watching a thriller unfold before my eyes. I can only imagine what it felt like for you live. Oh COME ON. We lost ketchup too? I saw the edit but it was minor, I thought it could go by. No exceptions, whatever, even if a mod (TL mod I mean) can confirm all he did was add an s to a plural or something? Not that it matters now that he flipped I guess... On October 16 2014 09:03 GhandiEAGLE wrote: Why the hell didn't Coma reveal as 3P? He coulda worked with townerino. And given men 50 more posts to read?! Fuck that. I mean, we didn't lynch any scum but isn't serial poisoner more dangerous for us than Survivor anyway? I knew something was up with ComaDose (and I was right) but I didn't consider the possibility of a 3P at all... Actually when people talked about 3P (Wave and ketchup iirc?) I just surmised that Serial Poisoner seems like a pretty complex situation and that I'd put my money on Survivor if we had a 3P. After checking, nvm Dandel said he RNG'd everything. On October 16 2014 09:47 WaveofShadow wrote: Also I'm pretty sure I know who Coma poisoned and I'm not gonna say anything for hopes of doublestack. Inb4 he actually poisoned Lord Tolkien or ketchup. Actually, yeah: all night actions are resolved at the same time, right? So he could have poisoned Tolkien the same night he died? That'd benefit us a lot, since you seem to consider it highly unlikely Coma poisoned scum. 0K I've got work to do, so I won't bother with a big post right now. I have some ideas, but I'll need to process them properly. Since most of you are sleeping it's not like it changes anything if I post now or in 2-3 hours. I'll come back. | ||
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+ Show Spoiler + On October 17 2014 00:22 WaveofShadow wrote: Wtf are you talking about? Some things: I think it might almost be little better that you're probably not getting a check off, because there's likely a GF floating around. Also considering how scum have to play tonight I might as well just say, I think coma probably poisoned me N1. He had every reason to be afraid of my play and was giving me town reads if I'm not mistaken. I could be wrong but either way not like it matters. On the off chance we do have a poisoner, I can't say for certain that you should antidote me; it could be someone else or it could be better to just let me die if people are super suspicious of me still. TL;DR if Req is our poisoner you're fucked either way? Screw you guys, no fun allowed. More seriously, there's a possibility I'm considering (which doesn't involve poisoner so hopefully either Coma's "parting gift" or our poisoner put a spanner in those works), that should be "viable" and different from Wave's (if I get it right). Because Wave's is so sure there's only one, it make me a bit nervous—not necessarily about you Wave. I'll explain tomorrow because I don't want to give scum ideas. I noticed several people also seem to get more sure in their reads or "how the game shouldbe played". Just pointing out that only considering optimal play isn't best. It should still considered the most likely as long as it isn't too convoluted, but vets should probably stay open to the possibility of "less optimal" play. -- Answering Wave's post on me (for the record mordek, I offered to answer after the first one you quoted, just noone followed up): + Show Spoiler + On October 17 2014 01:19 WaveofShadow wrote: Alaric should be higher up on the suspicious list right now for everyone. His play has been classically good town play, but for all the people who keep throwing suspicion on me because I'm capable of lying/manipulating as scum, look at Alaric's play. He very clearly knows how to play mafia and knows exactly what he is talking about, and so should so know what town likes to hear. I also remember saying I originally liked his vote dump on coma but now that coma flipped 3P, it doesn't mean anything anymore similar to Asmo' hammer. (essentially either of them could have thought they were voting town) I'll adress the "know the game" thing with that day 1 post from ketchup. I refrained from correcting him because I have no idea how these games, and especially day 1 go, so I didn't know how cheeky I could be, thinking I'd go back to hit day 2 once things cooled down. They actually went super "srs mode" and Ghandi got bandwagon'd precisely because he was cheeky so I dropped it altogether. I have some experience in the mechanics of the game, and I easily involve myself in stuff I find interesting so I kind of picked up on that, a huge difference however is that in my games of Werewolves fucking nobody utters a word and you pretty much RNG the lynches for 3+ days (20+ person games, they go long), another is that I know maybe 1-2 people outside of the game, that one only goes for this particular game, though (look up my filter Day 1, I mentioned near the end how it being an OT Mafia made me less confident in my reads). + Show Spoiler [the ketchup post that wasn't to be] + My answer to ketchup was built around the fact that in Werewolves I'm often the first one to talk to force it into action (kinda like Wave did with his first post, hence my adamant resolve that it couldn't be used against him)... which means I'm the day 1 lynch (werewolves goes N1-D1-N2-etc. sometimes there's a kill N1, sometimes not, depends on host). It's actually a kind of running gag because after a few sessions I started not saying a word to try and enjoy the game longer, and I still died (lynched or eaten) the first cycle. Always. At some point Cupid (basically creates a love triangle at the start of the game, the center dies all die, both others die he dies with them) chose me as the center, to "force" 2 people to defend me in the hopes that I'd live longer. Someone was eaten, another poisoned (equivalent to vigilante in werewolves), then they lynched me regardless, and my role meant I killed 2 or 3 adjacent people upon dying, so that masterful ploy killed 6 townies and only one werewolf the first cycle. Game ended fast. So based on that, I was gonna ketchup that and point out that I'd rather not get lynched Day 1, just to beak with tradition. Actually delaying the post to Day 2, and telling him "see, if I made that on Day 1 that'd have been suspicious/been called martyring and I'd probably have been lynched for it. So I avoided talking about my Day 1 issues to survive Day 1!" and made some joke about meta. You can get why I ended up not making the post, even as a light banter/fun fact thing. I won't argue that I haven't been picking up bits here and there as time went, though, and I'm definitely more experienced now than at the start (feel I learnt a bunch from your caricatural "frustrated" play and the Night 1 exchanges between you and particularly Tolkien. I didn't take it for myself because I'm bad at this "trolling" style and it'd have been super different from my first cycle play, but I used a lot of what it taught me in my reads). Look up the post where I explain why I vote Moonbear ove Ghandi, then my Day 2 Soniv vote over Ghandi. My reasoning ends up being similar but I'm a lot more confident Day 2. Same with how I went on Coma for good, compare that to both (earlier) times I went on Asmo, and first time on Coma. (Soniv is still a fucker though. Do you always play like that, or was it because of your blue role that you wanted not to stick out too much?) -- About ComaDose, I stand by my vote and reasoning by the way. He was very suspicious to me, and with reason—I didn't consider 3rd party at all, and I don't know how it usually play out, but with that setup and the way the game went I believe him alive was more detrimental to town than scum (vets can correct me if I'm wrong? My impression anyway), and I'll state again that I'm fine with his death and although not scum I consider it (and my earlier pressure against him and investigating) a sucess. -- About Requizen (I'm not Soniv but screw it, cf. the 3rd argument for my Soniv vote). When I said it being an OT Mafia didn't help me, Requizen (and to a lesser extent Moonbear, but we dun goofed Day 1) was the exception, because he's so sensitive (in general, not in an "easily offended" way) at times, impulsive and he opens up so much in OT that he's one of the easiest to anticipate, and as such detect whether he's faking or not. Also because his choice of VN made me think he'd not only like, but probably be good at gathering hints and making cases. And he proved me pretty right in that. You're being unreasonable Wave. I'm not going to try and get why (stuff on your plate, first cycle went wrong that demoralised you, fake frustration, whatever), but Req has actually made very well thought-out posts and analysis. When you can go against him, it's usually not for the way he reads the situation or his conclusions, but his premises (like that "at least 2 of Soniv/Ghandi/Wave are scum, he started with wrong premises (notably concerning you) but the post itself and the analysis based upon that premise was very well crafted). If you could for just a moment replace every "Wave" mention in his posts with "Mr. Karate" and give them a read again, I'm sure you wouldn't be as flustered, and you'd actually like most of what you read. It's true that Requizen may be wrong in where he ends up, but that's because he's cannon without crew, if you will. That's not to say he has to be manipulated, but as most of us he isn't experienced in this game, even if he picked it up super fast after Day 1. So sometimes he points at the wrong direction (like when he assumed you could potentially all be scum), but it's also part of your job (as a vet more experienced than us, assuming you're town) to guide him. 'cept you've just thrown his whole posts/reasonings out the window just because they had bad premises and talked about you. When you could just have corrected the premises and discussed about it. The caveat to that very lauding post is that I blindly trusted my opinion of Req (from OT and stuff) that he wouldn't be good at leading people astray with how "whole" his personality is, to put him as town. Since I've reached the conclusion that at least one person is not just being indecisive, but actively lying and playing with us I try not to believe Req as blindly until I decide who it is, even though my instinct tells me he's reliable. -- Finally, Asmodeus. Said I'd come for Coma and you, and he's dead (and he made me more confident about my reads at that). You pretty much did bandwagon/sheep someone -> get pressured -> do a pretty darn good job of building a case and being "autonomous" when you apply yourself to it -> mislynch -> you "lose confidence in [your] reads" and start sheeping until the cycle starts again. When there were both Soniv and Ghandi you also said (while voting Soniv) that Ghandi was your other read. You mean, only both accused? The one you vote against and the one everybody's been leaning against from (almost) the start? Well that'd bold. And you make excuses that "I'm not confident" or "I'm not sure" whenever you get asked, you had to be asked twice (and the second time by Wave iirc, who's been leading a lot and thus has actual traction) to give two super-safe reads. You weren't as non-commital as ComaDose still, so I let you off, and your cases were very well done one, so I got swayed by them both times. However, like I just said above about Requizen, that's not enough to convince me anymore (especially after both turned out to be duds). Is Ghandi still your main read? Do you plan on pushing him for Day 3? Or has someone else taken his place since (and if so, who)? Don't be wavering. Mordek, did you imply what I think you implied? | ||
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Exactly why I said I wouldn't be satisfied with. It's not Day 3 yet but I'd still like you to answer my post Asmo. | ||
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Answer to you: I came to DotA 2 from LoL, I have a itsy-bits of mechanics but other than that wtf is going on in this game guys, it's not what I knew at all. Some sidetracking about a joke/anecdote I ended up not doing. An addition about how I still believe my gut call on Coma was right because in that setup serial poisoner's more dangerous than useful to town (asking confirmation from Soniv or you, but that's the impression I got), plus his play was def. suspicious. About Req: Just replace "Wave" with "Takuma" in each of Req's posts and re-read them. Req is doing work with his data analysis, it's just he collects data wrong (like when he assumed you/Ghandi/Soniv could all be scum, or that you+soniv scum wouldn't end with a bus with how hard you went at it). If you could drop some salt and manage, you to point out his mistakes without throwing the whole post out the window (while snickering), and him to take the criticism without lashing at you, that'd help us a ton. Caveat: my read on Req relies primarily on that I used to think him 100% unable to put us on strings. I'm more paranoid now that I think someone is making bold lies (and potentially being real good at it) so I dropped the 100%. About Asmo: Uh... I guess I finally got at what you said when you called him a "politician"? Not sure how to make it shorter. I want him to be more assertive because so far you can sum up his play with sheepping -> called out hard -> suddenly solid case on a townie -> "I'm so bad, I'm never gonna make reads ever again" and back to sheeping when towniness is revealed (thanksfully not through death for Soniv), and I don't think it brings much. (Well it actually brings a ton when he makes a case, but after two sniper rounds in the wrong direction I'll be a more skeptical this time if he makes a third case.) | ||
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(Fun fact: during a project evaluation meeting today my ex-boss mentioned how I should work on being more concise. ^^') | ||
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On October 17 2014 04:30 WaveofShadow wrote: Lol I love how your tldr is still pretty long. Fuck you. Now Imma read the rest of your post. And don't take it personally Req, it's been the same for everyone ('cept ketchup at the time, RIP), you just stick out because I was so damn sure of you. Unless you dislike my thinking you ain't no born mastermind? | ||
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Look who's talking. | ||
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On October 17 2014 09:02 GhandiEAGLE wrote: + Show Spoiler + Bye Soniv, I won't forget that u saved my life yesterday <3 btw about OWB BAAAAAAAAAM WHO FUCKIN KNEW IT JEFF DID Y'ALL ALMOST LOOKED LIKE IDIOTS BUT GUESS WHAT EVERYTHINGS COMIN UP GHANDI I read that post in your voice and tone as you streamed X-COM. It made me laugh, but I hope your plans end up better this time (unless your scum, then go fail all you want). I feel... weird. I mean, I should probably be happy, we finally got a scum (and it was through ComaDose who ended up serving town more than scum this game, oh the irony—though in a sense it makes me even more glad we killed you, because we did so before you had a chance to harm us—perfect timing! x) ), but something feels off. Can't quite put my finger on it. If we go after the earlier evaluation of scum + 3P, we currently sit at a 2 v 6 situation. Wave, we're actually in a very good position thanks to owb's poisoning, confirm? Also was that "the only possible scum play" you were talking about? You seem pretty satisfied with how things went down, it wasn't exactly what I expected but you seemed confident in your theory. Care to explain it now that the night's over, or still risky? Gonna have to reevaluate all my reads. That means Wave and Req are back on the table (yeah, Wave, even if I asked you these questions, which is going to make interpreting your answers awkward >.>). I'm pretty damn tired today and I've got work, so I'm only going to make a preliminary pass and I'll come back with more once I reread owb's/mordek's filters (either this evening or tomorrow, depending on how clear-headed I feel). - No need to talk about Cixah (I actually have to actively remind myself of you whenever I make counts just because not only we never have to suspect you, but you don't post too much (I know your working hours are weird, not gonna call out too much on that)). - Ghandi, while still on the table, suddenly becomes the townest he's ever been since the game started. Which isn't to say much, but still. - Wave... I think I'm going to have to look through Req's filter and separate when he's flat-out wrong and when he says interesting stuff. Also Soniv's post (but that'd almost feel too easy if he was right). - Alzadar: On October 17 2014 13:47 Alzadar wrote: I'll be dead tomorrow morning, but I'd like to actually see a scummer get lynched before I go. Nope, the Medic can protect himself, he just can't do it twice in a row (to avoid ties I guess). And with your previous target (and the scum roleblocker) dead, you can actually protect anyone tonight (hint: don't protect Cixah). If I'm right on what happens now that you're revealed, you're about as good as VT, though... - Requizen, see Wave. You're going to be fucking hard to read in a satisfactory way now, and I'll have to check your filter to get a feeling for both you and Wave. - Mordek indeed implied what I was thinking he implied. And he's claimed, which helps us a ton if it's true, but at that point I can't help but be skeptical. On October 17 2014 11:11 mordek wrote: Ok it's a numbers game, and I'm basically vanilla at this point so I can't think why not. Hi I'm your friendly drugstore pharmacist aka the Town Poisoner I'll inform you that I decided with the delayed kill I needed to act N1. Ghandi and Soniv were my highest scum reads as I've stated multiple times. So I poisoned Soniv because I figured Jeff was a very likely target D2. We might get a double scum flip :O Obviously it turns out to be a terrible read. I used my antidote on soniv in the off chance he would live otherwise. I'm posting from my phone but just look at my night posts. Anyways I figure now is the time to get town consolidated because there's no one left to shield anymore and I've used both vials. To sum up: - you're Vanilla now so you can't prove it anymore - you had to use both vials because you targeted someone who "prove" himself right after - he's now dead anyway, too (not sure if it changes something but still) You're telling us to look at your night posts: On October 17 2014 00:29 mordek wrote: Soniv, I just want to let you know your claim post inspired me. I'm going to try and make it up to you. On October 17 2014 01:15 mordek wrote: I get that. You probably read through my filter and after digesting it for like 5 minutes it gives you a queasy feeling, sure. I'm going to remedy that My, such subtlety. I mean, the way you put it I could reasonably see a thought process of "it saved Soniv and Alzadar, and I'm going to need a defense if I people turn to me, so if I imply that I'm Poisoner and make it obvious, those who notice it won't question me and I can use that to fake-claim later and show that I didn't make it up on the spot". I know I didn't bring it up (just said a vague "imply" without pointing anything) because if scum didn't notice it too then they didn't me to show everyone. Also Soniv and Alzadar showed that they did it from Day 1. Your claim makes sense, and works well, but it works so well it's pretty convenient. I don't know. Once I read your filter I'll have a more accurate opinion. - Asmodeus is still as suspicious as ever to me. Quick check through his filter, he didn't post anything relevant (but did post at all) after this, which didn't address my concerns (don't be afraid by the wall, it' only the last paragraph, or just read the TL;DR Wave requested I guess, lazy bum that he is <<). Just because a pen got cleared doesn't make me forget there's another one, Asmo. | ||
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Owb, how does it feel, looking at yourself being dissected like that? | ||
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(And in hindsight wasting 4 hours on pc issues yesterday was a good thing mafia-wise, because I was tired so shit investigative capabilities.) I went through ComaDose's filter hoping that I could get info about why he chose owb. Maybe that could have given some hindsight into his reads, or thoughts ke kept to himself (now that we know he was 3P, nothing surprising that he was non-committal). Turns out Coma actually never went on anyone but Ghandi (and died because he tied himself to it so much) and never even mentioned owb, apart from this post which he didn't explain when I asked him to. I guess he just chose a "lurker" because he didn't want to make waves (no pun). Wave your filter is 22 fucking pages, how are we supposed to plow through that. x_x Maybe I'll try later. In the meantime, a few things that popped back in mind, with no posts attached: + Show Spoiler [readability] + - you're very back-and-forth and inconsistent. You hint people as to what they should do but claim you don't want to lead anyone. You played around with Soniv about how you were the key to his vote, and you also spoke several times of your ability to sway people and influence votes; but you repeated that you dislike to be in a leading position and are never sure of yourself. It's like you say you want us to trust you but you keep repeating that you're unreliable, which is a bit confusing, you'll admit. - plus, as a veteran I'd expect you to be the most confident of us all at this point, actually. ._. - but at least at this point I think I'm pretty certain there's no way Ghandi and you are scum at the same time, or Req and you. (fake edit: I found such a post while reading owb's filter, you actually like to suggest stuff but not push actually for it, like the switch to mordek that made owb move to him too.) (fake edit²: can you explain exactly what you call shenanies? That post confused me. Ae shenanies last second pushes/vote switches because they screw with scum plans and don't leave them with enough time to lead town on a red herring?) I swear, though, if you end up being scum I'll come to your house and slap you around the head whenever you whine again in OT about how you're bad at Mafia. x) owb's filter: he didn't really seem to interact with anyone, except for Wave (who he tended to parrot) and Requizen, when trying to get him to give a read on Soniv, refusing "neutral". That post made me react: On October 15 2014 01:17 onlywonderboy wrote: Who specifically? Looks like your main pushes recently have been on Coma and ketchup. Has Coma's return to the thread made him less of a priority in your eyes? Also your push on ketchup seems weird. It honestly looks like you're just rage voting him because he's putting pressure on you. That's not good town play. We don't know who is mafia and who is town so just because someone is pushing you doesn't mean they are mafia. It can be frustrating but it's an important part of the game. Also ketchup's general play has seemed town so I'm gonna need more reason to believe he's mafia rather than he's pushing you over Alaric. That's exactly why he voted Ghandi at first! And he called the same thing shit play from Requizen? What was his goal? And his explanation post on the vote isn't any better. Urgh... I just reread the whole end-of-day-2 shitfest situation (for real, no wonder my brain was fried at work after I caught up to that). I'm a bit lost and overloaded with information but here's something I noticed: + Show Spoiler [readability] + - at one point, it's 6-5 in favor of Ghandi being lynched. Ghandi points at mordek but it doesn't work out. However, owb switches (shortly) to mordek too before going back to Ghandi (he actually parroted Wave once again rather than Ghandi). At about the same time, I voted for Soniv, putting it at 6-6. Upon reverifying, Ghandi was dead anyway... - ... because owb held the oldest vote. As he switched, he transfered it to Asmodeus. Which meant "putting pressure to make mordek post" at that point saved Ghandi, and alternatively "pushed" Soniv. - Soniv had to reveal himself, meaning scum learnt about his role. Not as good as getting him lynched, but still pretty good. Plus, there were discussions of switching to ComaDose (+ Show Spoiler + I "started" (Wave suggestion, again followed by Mordek and Soniv) and then went to bed, meaning my vote would stick, and Ghandi would vote Coma anyway for self-preservation. The whole "Soniv" wagon had to rellocate, so 6 people, 7 with owb who was originally on Ghandi, so scum had a mislynch secured there. TL;DR: I think what passed up as random chance at the end of Day 2 was actually deliberate by owb and may give us insight into who the 2 remaining scum are. There may still have been a bus going on, however it would imply bussing Ghandi. Here how it works out for the current survivors involved: + Show Spoiler [readability] + - Req: nothing. - Asmodeus: he pushed Soniv very hard, and until the claim he had the 2nd oldest vote, meaning if scum wanted Soniv all owb had to do was switch, Asmo being scum would have secured them the tie because the oldest vote was then "reliable" for them. It would also have allowed Asmodeus to distance himself from Ghandi somewhat. On top of everything we already have. - mordek: not much. It was only a small nudge so he wasn't ever in danger, and owb switched back super fast so there was never much going on. He jumped super fast on ComaDose the second time but that doesn't mean much. Him being scum wouldn't really improve the plan either, at best it'd allow owb to combine the tie transfer with distancing. - Ghandi: on paper "the play" keeps Ghandi alive while granting massive distancing from most people involved (Wave and Asmodeus mostly; Req was on Wave and mordek wasn't very assertive anyway). On the other hand without the whole parity cop claim thing Ghandi was like 80% the Day 3 lynch, so that was sacrificing someone just to get Soniv, which sounds like an awful scum play—while setting up Ghandi as obvious lynch at the same time as killing Soniv would have been very good from the way I see it. However, how ballsy/masterminded/risky would it have been to set that up while expecting to keep Ghandi alive? Oo - Wave: immediatly moved toward mordek after Ghandi started it, lending credibility to the "pressure train" (and giving owb an excuse since parroting the same Ghandi he had his vote against wasn't believable), then later when Soniv claimed he was the first to suggest ComaDose, although he insisted he didn't want to push (trying to hide himself?). While Soniv was easy to kill (eg. pre-claim) he was very confident in his "key" status, by contrast. Also lets him distance himself from owb, but that's because it was parroting and not following each other, which doesn't mean much. Plus if Wave is scum I don't think he needs distancing from anyone at this point. TL;DR: ironically I think apart from Req Ghandi is the one who comes out of that filter session the "cleanest". Not because he looks less scummy, but because others had so many reasons for using him if they were themselves scummy. Wave's wavering (hue... I'll see myself out) could make sense, but at this point Asmo is consolidated as the most likely candidate. I don't know if I'll bother reading Requizen's filter. I'm pretty sure I'll come to the same conclusion as I did after Night 2 : if he's scum, that'd mean he's been so good at faking and leading us on, to an extent I don't find myself believing him. That also makes getting a read on him super hard for him because the alternatives are so extreme. So he's my biggest town read atm. ##vote: Asmodeus I'm already tired and I haven't fixed my window yet but since I'm on holidays I'll prob be there for the deadline in case of twists and needs to reevaluate. (I think it took me almost 2 hours making that post...) | ||
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On October 19 2014 02:24 WaveofShadow wrote: For the rtecord Alaric, I'm very bad at town, but very VERY good at scum. You can check my past games winrate, they're in my profile. Uh... am I supposed to take that as "if you don't like my play it means I'm town" or "I'm honest so I'm town"? x) I mean that's even bolder than Req "oh boy you know nothing about how much I could be putting you on strings". | ||
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Anyway, I actually think you have a point. Or that I did my reads bad. On October 19 2014 02:48 WaveofShadow wrote: Nobody commented on my stuff regarding the possibility of mordek's claim being fake, and as well I'd like to discuss req at some point if anyone will be around. I just find it so completely unbelievable that req is STILL on me at this point. I have NEVER, in all of my games played (30-ish? including newbies) seen a town player stick to a single read all game like this. Alternatively I have seen scum do it (albeit more subtly than this). It just doesn't make any sense from a town POV while from scum it creates consistency (which town seems to love) an excuse for bad play and a way to absolve oneself from the responsibility of talking about or voting teammates, for example (or anyone else). I thought about something like that while reading the start of the paragraph and the sentence made me go "oh, that's what I forgot!" + Show Spoiler + Thing is, technically Req's posting doesn't do much direct harm to town. He's involved, and he shows he reads most posts, takes the time to formulate thought-out arguments, and can make compelling cases (barring the premise thing I talked about). All stuff that I'd easily attribute to an eager but inexperienced player, and in line with my "pre-opinion" of him in a puzzle/guessing game. Whenever I look for scum I was mostly trying to find lies, people pushing too hard or for unclear reasons (or even no reason at all), wishy-washy indecisiveness and jumping around too much. Part of why I didn't check lurkers much (haven't read mordek's or Alzadar's filters yet (I'll get to it), and didn't Coma/owb/Asmo at all before recently), I'd rather directly call them out and wait for a contribution to evaluate (what happened with Asmo, which was arguably a mistake with how things turned out). Req doesn't present any of those things. He doesn't make slips or mistakes, or presents weird stances, or tries to start trains. In short he doesn't leave ground for errors or getting caught out if he's scum. On the other hand, how does his behaviour help scum's agenda? Shouldn't they be sowing dissension (either defending against some pushes or throwing oil in the fire when a bandwagon starts), push against people (especially lurkers who made for easy mislynches I assume) or in general try not to make themselves noticed? At the start I could get that, you were a polarising figure, and the way you talked to people or played such a big part in our direction could make a case for you being suspicious (whereas now I accept that as your posting (didn't Soniv call you a blood hound or something?) but I'm wary or what benefits you can get out of the reactions you incite). If you were town and him scum that could have been a push to lynch the town's leader and disrupt our activity. But the wagon never took off, and pretty much since the end of Night 1 Requizen's been the only one at odds with you (even people you accused like Soniv treated you as townie). What does Scum!Req gain from that? Since you'd never get lynched like that, if he focuses on you he pretty much removes himself from the game. Uh... I'm starting to get lenghty, so while I leave that out there I'll try to be more concise: TL;DR: Req doesn't bring much to the town, much like Ghandi at the beginning. However because he won't start a successful bandwagon against you he doesn't bring much to scum either. Isn't it bad for scum if they're inactive? If Req makes us "ignore" him (we don't pay too much attention to his posts but notice he's active) then it's a good cover because he doesn't help us but he's not drawing attention like the lurkers do. And he automatically distances from everyone (but you) because he pretty much only talks about you, even when asked about his reads. So... I'm having a bit of trouble to reach a conclusion, or where you're getting at. "Req's posting looks like bad scum play, which doesn't matter because remember we're not here to lynch dangerous scum, but every scum", is that a good summary? I'll admit I tunnel-vision'd hard on stuff that gave me the feeling of actively threatening town, in retrospect. | ||
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Post TL;DR: "Req is toothless scum hiding in a corner, we don't care if he doesn't try to brainwash us because scum is scum"? Also is your plan to switch to him? Because I'd rather see what he has to say (and who the other scum is if you're the main one, I agree he actually almost never brought that up in his reads) before lynching him, and he said he's not gonna be able to post much tonight. | ||
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So I'd rather discuss it tomorrow (real time I mean). Ideally Day 4, but it's very possible I get killed so a "before night 3 deadline" post. I can understand that you'd rather do it today since you aren't as busy, but do you think it can wait a bit? I'll look at mordek's filter while you reply, got enough tea for that I guess. However, if after that you ask my opinions on your filter, you can be sure that whatever is in there I'll push a lynch on you day 4 out of spite! x) | ||
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Night 2, the Alzadar situation and where I may have mindfucked myself by inexperience. + Show Spoiler + After Day 2, when you said scum only had one play possible, I immediatly thought "Roleblock Soniv, kill Alzadar". But then I thought about "Roleblock Alzadar, kill Soniv", and I wondered why they wouldn't do that instead. Actually, I wondered which one of the two you were talking about since it meant 2 different plays open to them (I asked you what you were thinking about but didn't insist because I didn't want to give scum ideas, then I asked again more directly at the start of Day 3 + Show Spoiler + On October 17 2014 20:18 Alaric wrote: Wave, [...] was that "the only possible scum play" you were talking about? You seem pretty satisfied with how things went down, it wasn't exactly what I expected but you seemed confident in your theory. Care to explain it now that the night's over, or still risky? Something that I remembered was the discussion about roleblocking Cixah, and how you were surprised that it was possible (and people insisted that if the Innocent Child wasn't revealed Cixah was on the choping block). Also how ComaDose pretty much killed himself by how tightly he tied himself to Ghandi (more specifically Ghandi flipping red). With some people doubting Soniv's and Alzadar's claims, it would be easy to put them both in the same "if you don't die tonight then you're scum" situation. Reasoning was that scum don't need to kill Alzadar, they just need him to die. I thought that for you the only scum play possible was to kill the medic, and that if it didn't happen you'd suspect Alzadar. It actually looked like a very good scum play to me, because it was reliable, and it would made us lynch our medic ourselves. From the way you've posted if looks like either you didn't consider it at all (hence why maybe I'm mindfucking myself and looking too deep for manipulations), or you dismissed it because it wouldn't be believable and thus not be a good scum play. At this point it doesn't matter because they won't be able to kill Alzadar next night (he protected Soniv last time, so he can protect himself), and the following one he won't be protected for sure. So they just have to kill anyone else (or their next biggest target) N3, then Alzadar N4. While if they killed Alzadar instead, they'd have to kill Soniv N3 (since they don't have a roleblocker anymore), which made them somewhat more predictable. Another reason they could have went for the parity cop over the medic, and I assume the one you're thinking of yourself, is that while both have to die, both are pretty much technically VT at this point (no meaningful use, or use at all of their powers) and Soniv is much more dangerous as a "townie thinker" than Alzadar (don't take it badly Alzadar, I think it's pretty obvious to everyone that Soniv was one of the biggest contributers). And considering today's activity I don't think scum's success on that part needs further explaining... Their absolute best lynches next night are Cixah, Alzadar and mordek, since they're pretty much confirmed, killing them leaves more "targets". In that case I'd be out of ideas for Day 4, so it's the worst case for me. Assuming they wanted us to lynch Alzadar/make him seem suspicious (contrary to mordek who in his claim said he was out of vials, so he's VT like Cixah), that leaves Cixah and Mordek as candidates. They could also go for the contributers again (let's be honest, Alzadar/Cixah/Mordek don't post much). In that case it's either you or me. If it's me, then best scum guess was mordek because I questioned his claim. If you, then split between mordek and Requizen. If Requizen died, if could have pointed to you (or trying to frame you, what with killing the only guy to doubt you). If Ghandi died... I'd probably look at Requizen then. Obviously now that I've laid that out there for anyone to see it doesn't matter anymore. So I won't take into account whoever gets shot because it's a whole WIFOM avenue. Piecemealing it a bit and to give you time since I don't post fast. Onto the next part. | ||
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Fake edit since I refreshed before posting: they can't kill Alzadar if he protects himself, that's the point. Also Soniv wouldn't have gotten a check off because he'd have been roleblocked next night, and died next one so he never get to post his check (although it did technically went off). Of mordek. + Show Spoiler + I believe he's scum. There, I'm a nice guy, I put the TL;DR at the top this time. I noticed a pattern in his accusations, they more or less go this way: - he has a scum read on Soniv day 1, also Ghandi (once several people called him out on it). Actually starts a bandwagon on Cixah which had crap reasoning (basically thought 55%/45% and 51%/49% is a weird way of expressing reads and trying not to commit; Ghandi straight-up said "I'm aboard the train choo-choo!", Alzadar said "He's been parroting Wave so far"). Tries to start a bandwagon on Tolkien (who we thought was weird, but I can see scum afraid of him, since he's only ambiguous to us), while defending Wave (like owb). Night 1, Tolkien, who he accused but survived, gets killed. - Day 2 he's still reading Ghandi most but actually votes Soniv. Wave was pushing Soniv hard at that point, also note for later: why vote (and push a bit himself) Soniv if he poisoned him? He later says he's willing to change his vote... for Ghandi. I give him a pass there because most of us were accusing both Ghandi and Soniv (I know I was, although I put Soniv above Ghandi), and although he said he valued consistency he did mention Ghandi and Soniv as early as D1 (he always said Ghandi was is #1 but ended up voting Soniv first though). His list (mid-D2) gives as top town the IC and 2 people widely seen as town by then (Wave and myself), and as scum the 2 people everyone was suspecting (Ghandi and Soniv), rest can pretty much be summed up as "lurkers, no real read". I don't know Wave's impression as a vet but re-reading it in the current situation (stumbled upon it while re-reading ComaDose's filter) it's like the perfect "blend in" post, parroting the popular opinions without committing anything (all reads are one-liners too). Note how he later makes up a justification for it without being prompted. He only made a more in-depth post when Wave quizzed him... about himself. To his credit he didn't panic nor try to deflect, which would have looked scummy. When Ghandi questions him (and after the "tiebreaker" shenanigan by owb) he switched his vote to him (eg. Ghandi), though. His play Day 2 can actually be very well summed up by himself there: On October 16 2014 06:18 mordek wrote: When the vote is between you and soniv all day it's no longer igniting a bandwagon. I can't understand how you'd frame the situation that way. I'm ok if I'm at the top of the scum's list. I'm 100% sure we're on to something. Nope, you're hiding in the crowd instead. Then once Soniv claims, he follows Soniv on Alzadar, then Wave on Coma. Night 2, Soniv, who he accused but survived, gets killed. He also notices how Alzadar and Soniv were saved because their play was consistent with their claims, and he starts putting "hints" ('cause you know... subtle) to prepare his own claim. - Day 3, he doesn't post much. He tries accusing me though, and when confronted with his own play springs his plan and claims. I aleady addressed it so I'll direct you to the relevant post + Show Spoiler [trimmed] + On October 17 2014 20:18 Alaric wrote: - Mordek indeed implied what I was thinking he implied. And he's claimed, which helps us a ton if it's true, but at that point I can't help but be skeptical. To sum up: - you're Vanilla now so you can't prove it anymore - you had to use both vials because you targeted someone who "prove" himself right after - he's now dead anyway, too (not sure if it changes something but still) You're telling us to look at your night posts: My, such subtlety. I mean, the way you put it I could reasonably see a thought process of "it saved Soniv and Alzadar, and I'm going to need a defense if I people turn to me, so if I imply that I'm Poisoner and make it obvious, those who notice it won't question me and I can use that to fake-claim later and show that I didn't make it up on the spot". I know I didn't bring it up (just said a vague "imply" without pointing anything) because if scum didn't notice it too then they didn't me to show everyone. Also Soniv and Alzadar showed that they did it from Day 1. Your claim makes sense, and works well, but it works so well it's pretty convenient. I don't know. Once I read your filter I'll have a more accurate opinion. I was actually almost certain he was scum at that point. I held back on purpose because I wanted to see his reaction but not show that I'd read through it. Now the cat's out of the bag I guess. Also notice the red lines. That's the pattern I noticed first, that started my investigation. And when I saw him accuse me and Asmo, I could already fill in the blank for Night 3: Alaric, who he accused but survived, gets killed. That's part of why I told you that I didn't want to voice my opinions so early, Wave, because I don't feel like dying. My initial plan was to get a condensed version of my conclusions in a "right-before-night-deadline" post like Soniv did before dying, just in case (with the "if X dies, look at Y" part from my previous post), and if I wasn't killed go through my guess' filter and do a post like this (although as you can see I expected it to be mordek, eg. Wave or me dying because we both expressed doubt toward him, although I took care not to do so too obviously). The last things I can pick up from his filter are that his "Asmo/Req relationship" post which usefulness was questioned by you, was followed by that one. It isn't incriminating, but I guess you can point out that he won't care about owb's filter since they barely had any exchange. Phew, took longer than expected. Now onto the epilogue... | ||
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What we do with all that. + Show Spoiler + I'll try not to take it into account. Keeping my vote on Asmodeus for now, and whatever happens tonight... With what we said, eg. you confirming that you doubt mordek's claim, and my huge post, the reasonable outcome would be "You or I get killed tonight", 'cept obviously with my whole chart laid out for them scum won't do what I expect them to anymore. Anyway, with Alzadar protecting himself the next best kill is Cixah. And yes, this means I write "townie" under Requizen (don't hold it against me too much Wave, till the end ) and Ghandi (be careful not to hit the roof by jumping too high, Jeff). So... whatever happens Night 3, really. I'm still mildly annoyed to have put all this out now instead of later, but ah well. Half of it is obsolete now anyway. | ||
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I don't know. I mean, you just revealed Alzadar can't protect himself which I didn't know, and maybe scum didn't either. Since you've read my walls of text I don't think I need to explain what that means for me in terms of WIFOM and what's likely to happen in the night anyway. So on one hand it's always good to discuss. On the other I don't know if I want to be exposed to even more potential WIFOM at that point. x_x Unless it's something that can blow open who scum is and make us completely rethink that, I'd rather not deal with it, you can always tell it after the game. Also Dandel "realism", really? Who'd suicide like that in Mafia? Well I put the smiley but the question's serious, I don't see which purpose it might serve... | ||
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Had Cixah not been Innocent Child I could have accused him after he went on Wave, sudden twist to get him killed and ensure the final mislynch or something, but as I said at some point early Cixah's motivations can't be attacked, whether or not he's right. But that makes the remaining choice between Wave, Ghandi and Requizen... and Ghandi is ironically almost the most townie here. ><" Just because in the end the arguments against him wouldn't be as compelling as against the other two (in terms of quality of play). Man... you see the whole "Alzadar or Cixah dies tonight" thing kills me because even if it meant scum is predictable and we can plan around that, it actually doesn't give us any new information about who they are. Which sucks. Inb4 I spend my first day of holidays reading through the two biggest filters of the whole game trying to solve that puzzle. >< Scum kill Wave pls. | ||
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As for you I posted one specifically for what makes me point you as scum on the previous page (it's spoilered). | ||
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On October 20 2014 09:10 mordek wrote: This an Alz mislynch bait is my first impression. That's exactly what I meant when I said I wouldn't be able to rely on my reads as much once I revealed them >< Also the reveal of Alz unable to protect himself that fucked with me and scum's possibilities. | ||
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since there are now 2 scum and we don't have room for error, tunneling so hard on Wave won't make you win, even if he's scum (well, unless you are scum and he isn't, in which case you only need one mislynch). There'd be someone else to find. If you're still bent on Wave being scum, then who do you think is the other one? Alternatively, assuming Wave died tonight (and flipped VT) instead of Cixah, who would be your new scum reads? | ||
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When I chose Asmodeus the last day I made this post (move directly to the paragraph called owb's filter), which shows how owb actually moved the lynch from Ghandi to Soniv when Wave "pressured" mordek. There's a part (2nd spoiler I think) where I lost what I think would make sense from scum!X. Ghandi was probably the least involved in it (save for you, and because if he was scum and the plan backfired he was in danger), and Asmodeus one of the most useful (since he held the key to lynching Soniv), with Wave behind. So if I remove Ghandi then the second scum is either you or Wave. I'd be willing to lynch any of the two... provided we can be certain it's going to result in a scum lynch. Because otherwise we're all dead (save the scum, uh). I'd rather lynch mordek today because I'm convinced he's scum at this point and it gives us 72 more hours to determine whether Res is a laser-guided hero or an autonomous scum. | ||
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I don't think it's actually interesting for scum to let a mislynch happen, because they trade 1 for 1... well, trading 1 for 1 doesn't really matter at this point. However, either they win tonight, or they can win the next day (by lynching Alzadar tonight since he's the last confirmed townie, and then you have one scum and 3 town.). You can see it this way: - if vote's on non-scum, they can just wait, whether they've voted on him, against him or not at all (if they haven't voted on him it's even better for them because they can switch their vote in case one of the townies has a change of mind). They can also pretend to defend him, but not too hard I guess otherwise the new target may be one of them. It creates fake activity though. - if vote's on scum, either they have the ability to tip the scales, and they don't care too much as long as other votes go on someone else so they can switch at the last second, or something like that, or they don't have that ability and they'll have to push. That... would actually make more sense for Wave to be scum then, I guess, since the vote lead is on Requizen and Wave also holds the tiebreaker to condemn him, so if 3 people vote on someone else (not himself) he can switch to save Req. On the other hand that scenario only makes sense if both Wave and Requizen are scum and they've been playing the shit out of us, and I don't believe that (plus it'd make no sense to pile so hard on Requizen either, because he's basically dead if we want it too at that point; sure it could be a bus but why the heck do a bus when you could force mislynch?). So... yeah. The current situation would only benefit scum!Wave in unrealistic scenarios (or they'd take huge balls, or scum would be so confident they can win they'd play with us). Between that, and Wave sharing my suspicions (same reasoning here: why would he go in my direction if that means a bus? The cred he'd get from that wouldn't offset not straight-up winning the game), I lean more on Req being scum between the two of them. ##Vote: mordek However, I'm putting my money when my mouth is and voting against the guy I'm 100% sure is scum, as opposed to the guy that "maybe" is scum, 70% chance or something. If noone shares my opinion and we have to take a bet with Req to stay in the game, I'll switch my vote, but! Because at that point I won't have a choice. I like certainty more. | ||
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My 100% is the same 100% I had on ComaDose. He turned out 3P but I hadn't considered them at the time, and not only are there no more 3P in the game, even as that his play was clearly focused on survival over town which should point to scum. | ||
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mordek case. | ||
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But I'm more convinced of you than of him (still hard to believe he'd have faked so well, on the other hand hard to believe Wave would have masterminded us all too), and we don't have room for error anymore. I'm admittedly a bit grumpy that when we're supposed to look at every tiny bit because it's-or-die, less than half of the people seem to read the posts, but I won't throw a fit over it, we've already seen that it hasn't resolved anything between Wave and Req (or, to take a more fitting town/town dynamic, between Soniv and Wave who needed a claim to set it straight). Which is why I said that if we have (maths) to take a bet on Req, then I'll take it with you all and hope (with you all save 2 ¬¬). | ||
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Fun fact: Wave now actually has the "key" status he claimed about Soniv because of how unlikely our votes are to spread 3 ways, and how comparatively harder it is to break a tie (I mean really do it, not use a tiebreaker) when there are 6 people remaining compare to 12. Ugh... I guess another way to look at it is who we think are the two remaining scums. So far Wave seems set on Req and... we don't know. I think mordek and Requizen (less so Requizen because fucking dynamic with Wave). Requizen thinks Wave and Ghandi. Mordek doesn't know. Ghandi thinks Req (thinks Req has a point on Wave, but since he's town and Req accuses him that makes him less likely). Alzadar thinks Req for the same reasons (Ghandi townie, so Req accusing him is scummy). All of you who aren't sure you else you'd point out, please think about it then. Even if we strike true today we're only getting a respite and we'll still have one lynch to carry out Day 5. With how little activity we've had N3/D4 I'd rather you start thinking now than not have any idea come Day 5 and end up with a RNG lynch and a prayer or something. | ||
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On October 22 2014 09:28 ketchup wrote: That was my own fault for editing. I gave Dandel the heads up in a message, then gambled on coinflip to see if i live or die. It was worth. A good timing to die because if town stepped up, they could have still had a chance to win. The claim was really bogus to me, and I kept my vote on you despite people changing over to comadose. I have to hand it to Alaric. Aside from his day 1 post where he was definitely was attempting to play the newb card, he never said anything that I saw that would have given him away. Then again, I also didn't read his well enough filter because other people stood out more. If you read my filter in reverse and search for you name, you'll quickly find a post where I address that (I think it's when Wave says noone ever suspected me and should have at least doubted). I'm a Mafia noob because I dare to utter words Day 1 in werewolves so I just end up lynched first. People aren't used to the game and they'll naturally vote on someone that sticks out, eg. the only guy who spoke, or the first one if he made others speak. So I have no experience at all of a bunch of stuff, including how good/bad our situation was after Night 2. My first posts read townie because I posted the exact same thing as if I'd been townie (iirc it was mostly "reads" on Req and Ghandi's posting style that gave me a green flag for Soniv and Wave, and not actual game stuff). I did that for a bunch of the game, although after awhile I couldn't anymore. I guess that's also why I couldn't "scum hunt" because that was the one thing I couldn't do the same way I'd do as townie without lying. When I tried to push Mordek to make some activity at the end I was super scared people would catch up because apart from ComaDose it was the only time I took the initiative. I think when we stopped posting and people doubted Requizen's status because of that the game could have easily turned around, but there was just no motivation anymore at that point (that's mentally exhausting too x_x). Also yeah screw Tolkien, vetest of vets. You looked like someone who wouldn't let us bullshit you. So we killed you. :< Now I'm gonna look at the obs qt for the end of D2. | ||
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On October 22 2014 09:44 AsmodeusXI wrote: lol welp I think the lesson most of us learned is that Mafia requires a time commitment most of us can't/won't commit to. I know I certainly did. At least you had that post "I won't be surprised if Alaric flips red and will be all IT MAKES SO MUCH SENSE" (there was caps at least, this I remember). Dandel, that from the obs qt: scum already found most the needed things to make the night amazingo, but they stopped just two steps before world domination so much potential = wasted ah well they still have time Is it when we suggested to roleblock Soniv, kill someone else, have Alzadar not lose cred for it and still be able to kill Soniv next night without repercussions, but didn't go through with it? About Alzadar it's in the qt but I basically expected Wave to say "scum's only play is kill the medic, Alzadar's alive, something's wrong" and play the "Maybe they're framing him so we kill him for them instead?" card. Didn't have to. Sad. That medic claim was MVP though. Ballsy too. | ||
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On October 22 2014 09:48 ketchup wrote: I definitely should have been more trolly in the game atmosphere so we could have had more fun with things. The end of day 2 was really fun, and it did save ghandi which was amazing.(even if he didn't actually help with much afterwards QQ) I just refused that we kill Wave or Ghandi at night just because of the struggles they went through. Consolation prize! | ||
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Oh I also checked out these RNG lynches by BlazingTorch, did it just before end of day 2. That was amazing. Forgot to tell you. owb: What was your train of thought for poisoning me? Coma:you were just the other lurkey person by N1 and I figured I had to get someone. :') | ||
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And yeah ketchup modkill was probably the biggest thing. It's so damn hard to find people, plus since you have to kill the ones who take initiative when they start suspecting you you start having to push and expose yourself more as there's less people. I dunno if it was because we were all noob but I was pretty scared of having to stick my neck out to point a scum and suddenly have everyone go "we're all hesitant, this guy is sure of himself, he must be scum!". | ||
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On October 22 2014 10:09 Lord Tolkien wrote: Maybe im salty i die everytime i try and lead town starting d1 Embrace it. I laughed my ass off the one time cupid thought tying 2 people to me would them "protect me". Na we just killed 6 people between D1 and N1 AHAHA! x') Dandel, I'm not sure what you mean. Say, we push Ghandi, roleblock mordek to Soniv dies, and kill someone at night? Would be good yeah, but that'd still mean Alzadar is outed because he's claimed medic and survived the night. Which would basically leave me to 1v6, and I'd never have won that. | ||
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Or do you mean that I didn't actually do anything with all my reads, like push mislynches, get town leader cred, etc. save poke ComaDose? After Day 1 Tolkien was the obvious kill but the next big threat to us was ketchup I think yeah. Wave could have mobilised people if he had a hunch on us, but ketchup reads were more accurate and he didn't seem to fall for our "na look I'm town" tactics. I'm really not sure how the rest would have turned out without the modkill, not because of what he could have said, but just because that'd have given us so many priority targets to handle (ketchup, Soniv, blues in general... ). Wave what was your out-of-game WIFOM-stuff on mordek? And what do you guys call shenanies? When town jumps on a train unexpectedly like what happened Day 2, because that screws with scum's plans and they can't organise a response/get a mislynch secured fast enough usually? | ||
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