EPT[I] TLLOLOTGDTM - Page 42
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Cixah
United States11285 Posts
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onlywonderboy
United States23745 Posts
On October 13 2014 14:01 ketchup wrote: How do you feel about tolkien? He has been active and fairly good to look into. What about Soniv? He has also made enough posts to get a feel for him I also agree with your view about Asmo's after lynch post. It felt very forced in an overly dramatic way. First impression of Tolkien was pretty scummy, but I think he's turned his play around. The biggest thing that makes me think he's town was how he was pushing for the random vote. It was pretty clear MB was the prime lynch candidate so if LT was mafia he could have just let him die. That would be a pretty ballsy play to give up a guaranteed town kill and risk a mafia kill just for the sake of looking town, regardless of the odds. Soniv I'm less sure about. He pushed for MB pretty hard and was sure he'd flip scum. Kinda like I said with Asmo, it's an easily dependable lynch because he was mostly afk and the lynch could be justified. Also Wave and Soniv have been pretty combative in this game and I think that's distracting the town a lot. I've already said I think Wave is town so this could be a scum play from Soniv trying to distract Wave from making meaningful contribution. I mean, look at his last couple posts, clearly this game is frustrating Wave (unless that's some next level mind games from Wave, but like I said I think he's helped the town more than not so far). | ||
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GhandiEAGLE
United States20754 Posts
Just personally. If I were scum on the chopping block, I think I'd try to make people feel stupid for even thinking I were scum. | ||
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WaveofShadow
Canada31494 Posts
On October 14 2014 00:12 GhandiEAGLE wrote: I think how defensive Wave is getting is further proof that he's scum. Just personally. If I were scum on the chopping block, I think I'd try to make people feel stupid for even thinking I were scum. 'Proof' I dunno I just have to decide if I'm annoyed enough with how people in this game have been playing to let you all attempt to lynch me, lose the game but be vindicated, or whether I actually care more about winning. Probably the latter. | ||
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jcarlsoniv
United States27922 Posts
On October 14 2014 00:08 Cixah wrote: Wave early in his posting, mentions his "Pre Game" strategy with Soniv in TS. I may be completely in the wrong for thinking this, but that phrase doesn't sit right with me in game with so much information being gleamed from every word. I Part of me thinks this was just the decided code on how they can mention the quickthread, but that's really loose reasoning. Most likely Paranoid, but it felt like something worth bringing up on N1. Before the game started, we had a short discussion about how we thought certain people would play (mostly regarding the first timers). We were right about some, not so right about others. | ||
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WaveofShadow
Canada31494 Posts
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onlywonderboy
United States23745 Posts
On October 14 2014 00:15 WaveofShadow wrote: 'Proof' I dunno I just have to decide if I'm annoyed enough with how people in this game have been playing to let you all attempt to lynch me, lose the game but be vindicated, or whether I actually care more about winning. Probably the latter. Well if you have that attitude in Day 2 you're negating my main defense of you that you're actually meaningfully helping the town :p I think you're getting overly frustrated because you're playing the game with so many newbies. This is not an easy game but just shutting down isn't going to help town win. Sometimes you need to explain to them why they are wrong. For example, being defensive doesn't necessarily mean he's scum. It's pretty much required in this game with how often people will go after you. If you go back and actually look at Wave's Day 1 play it doesn't really seem scummy. He tries to guide the town and the newbies kind of just spit in his face. Honestly I see why he feels discouraged, but I don't think it's time to give up yet. | ||
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Requizen
United States33802 Posts
On October 13 2014 23:55 WaveofShadow wrote: Oh hmm. I wonder why it's so quiet. Better lynch me tomorrow guys, I'm only around to spread chaos and discord. On October 14 2014 00:15 WaveofShadow wrote: 'Proof' I dunno I just have to decide if I'm annoyed enough with how people in this game have been playing to let you all attempt to lynch me, lose the game but be vindicated, or whether I actually care more about winning. Probably the latter. This is martyring. I get that you're pissy about us calling you out for being controlling and nitpicking new players, but get your head in the game. If you're that disappointed in the game and players, you can an hero at any time. | ||
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WaveofShadow
Canada31494 Posts
I would just appreciate if people come to realize the benefits of what I've been doing. I know everyone hates it, but here's a lesson in mafia from Papa Wave: When considering the motivation behind people's actions, it often helps to consider it from different points of view, ie, would town do this and why, would mafia do this and why? What is most likely? Me driving discussion, being aggressive, leading votes, offering advice---is that kind of play more likely to come from scum or town? What would be the potential motivations as each alignment? If people TRULY believe it is more likely that I have been masterminding everything from the start and that everything helpful coming out of my mouth is meant to manipulate the town to my own ends, then there's not really a great deal I can do because people are not attempting to see past bias and consider options equally---not good town play. | ||
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WaveofShadow
Canada31494 Posts
On October 13 2014 23:29 Requizen wrote: Maybe it's just early for a lot of people, but this thread should not be this dead during the night. Town needs to be discussing the action for the next day and posting discussion about yesterday's failed lynching. I have a large post coming soon, don't make me double. Let's use this as an example, shall we? This is more or less what I would have posted in response to the question 'should we be silent at night.' If it were me posting it yesterday, what do you think the reaction from certain people would have been? Can you honestly say that is bad advice, or would people simply have been only looking at the possible scum motivation to say something like that rather than consider both options? Simply speculation on what I assume people's reactions would have been, but I'm hoping my point has been made. I'll dump a whole shit ton of reads into the thread later. I imagine at this point I'm not going anywhere which is perfectly fine by me---I'll keep you guys active and thinking critically until it kills me. | ||
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jcarlsoniv
United States27922 Posts
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Requizen
United States33802 Posts
On October 14 2014 00:48 jcarlsoniv wrote: But here's the thing wave. You took a lead in town position just because your first post was a "follow me to victory" post. You've been very aggressive yes, but you've also been pretty defensive in the face of any criticism. You were incredibly indecisive for the rest of the day, keeping your vote unplaced for longer time than I'd expect after you criticized me early game for not placing my vote. On top of that, you wanted to enact some last minute "shenannies". A scum wave would absolutely know how to manipulate a newbie town, so excuse the town for not trusting your "judgement" thus far. This is largely how I'm feeling. Wave, your actions are suspicious. You're quick to jump on other people's posting because they don't line up with what you like, yet when people do the same to you, your defense and martyr shield comes up very quickly*. You also have used posts claimed to be "noob moves", such as claiming VT as your first D1 post and causing arguments instead of converstaion. These actions make you scummy. You're quick to accuse people of starting chaos when you, yourself, have been causing a clamor. Rather than helping the town progress naturally, you are either: a) Town and trying to force the Town to play your way or b) Scum and doing Scum things Both are bad, one is grounds for lynching. And, if you are Town, then all you're doing is drawing death N1. + Show Spoiler + *But, knowing your personality, you're not the type to take criticism easily, much like myself. Even if you don't want to admit it, this may be just your natural reaction. | ||
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Requizen
United States33802 Posts
Time to go into filters and weed out my town. | ||
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WaveofShadow
Canada31494 Posts
On October 14 2014 00:48 jcarlsoniv wrote: But here's the thing wave. You took a lead in town position just because your first post was a "follow me to victory" post. You've been very aggressive yes, but you've also been pretty defensive in the face of any criticism. You were incredibly indecisive for the rest of the day, keeping your vote unplaced for longer time than I'd expect after you criticized me early game for not placing my vote. On top of that, you wanted to enact some last minute "shenannies". A scum wave would absolutely know how to manipulate a newbie town, so excuse the town for not trusting your "judgement" thus far. And does any of the above make me scum, good sir? Time to school you as well, I think. Can you show how it's more likely that a scum Wave decided not to vote midday because he didn't want to get caught voting in a bad place rather than me having difficulty deciding? Can you show how being indecisive emulates a scum mindset? Can you show me how it's more likely that I was trying to enact last minute shenannies to somehow further scum ends rather than simply trying to get you guys off a likely town member? Also I'd like you to show me where I criticized you for not voting....cause I can't seem to find it. Maybe you can point it out to me though. Personally it looks to me like you're trying to throw tired old arguments at me---mafia buzzwords if you will----without thinking about them at all and assuming people will see 'Oh Wave was hypocritical about voting must be scum' and 'wave is being defensive/throwing his weight around' (I want to see how many times that phrase has come up now and who started using it actually) and look badly upon me. This is classically known as 'shit-flinging' and it serves two scum purposes: starts fights and serves to create discord and messes with town atmosphere (with the bonus of possibly demoralizing your target---and I'm ashamed to admit it's kind of worked because of the town members who have fallen under its spell), and it possibly sets up said player for a mislynch if people are not willing to look more deeply into the accusations. What is possible town motivation for 'shit-flinging?' Honestly, can;t think of any. A good town player would sit back and actually consider my actions from both perspectives rather than tossing open-ended suspicion at me, which is what you've been doing all game. | ||
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WaveofShadow
Canada31494 Posts
On October 14 2014 00:54 Requizen wrote: This is largely how I'm feeling. Wave, your actions are suspicious. You're quick to jump on other people's posting because they don't line up with what you like, yet when people do the same to you, your defense and martyr shield comes up very quickly*. You also have used posts claimed to be "noob moves", such as claiming VT as your first D1 post and causing arguments instead of converstaion. These actions make you scummy. You're quick to accuse people of starting chaos when you, yourself, have been causing a clamor. Rather than helping the town progress naturally, you are either: a) Town and trying to force the Town to play your way or b) Scum and doing Scum things Both are bad, one is grounds for lynching. And, if you are Town, then all you're doing is drawing death N1. + Show Spoiler + *But, knowing your personality, you're not the type to take criticism easily, much like myself. Even if you don't want to admit it, this may be just your natural reaction. See, this. This is EXACTLY IT. Notice the difference between this post and yours, soniv? 'Cause it's clear as day to me, and should be to everyone else. | ||
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WaveofShadow
Canada31494 Posts
On October 14 2014 00:56 Requizen wrote: That said, I think my focus has been too largely on Wave lately. This in and of itself makes me think Scum, using himself as a distraction for other Scum. Time to go into filters and weed out my town. Would you like to have a discussion, good sir? If you're worried about me leading/not letting things progress naturally I invite you to lead discussion. I agree, let's get the focus off me. This actually goes for anyone else as well. | ||
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Requizen
United States33802 Posts
Keeping information to yourself is the same as being a Goon. | ||
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WaveofShadow
Canada31494 Posts
On October 14 2014 01:08 Requizen wrote: I would gladly lead discussion. My desire at this point is to get as much information in the air before D2. If someone has ideas/feels/a train of logic and gets night killed before posting it, then the town is worse off than it is otherwise. Keeping information to yourself is the same as being a Goon. Lead away then. | ||
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Alaric
France45622 Posts
On October 13 2014 23:55 WaveofShadow wrote: Oh hmm. I wonder why it's so quiet. Better lynch me tomorrow guys, I'm only around to spread chaos and discord. Now you sound like day 1 Req.  Other than that... welp. I was going to feel bad about lynching Moonbear (although more because his post upon returning seemed to imply RL stuff in the way of him playing) but then there was this Isaac-styled Night post and I had to laugh. Damnit Dandel. I still stand by my choice not to switch my vote, not because I necessarily think Ghandi is town too but because of the mess that discussion caused. I've got some opinions, but there's potential for them to drastically change once night actions are revealed so I'll keep the analysis/"update" for tomorrow. As for what happened in-between, few things I'd like to point out: Alzadar, not that I think you defending Wave is suspicious, but at this point I don't think it'll bring much. Since our goal isn't to keep the whole town alive but to lynch scum, it's better for us to accuse than to protect. The exception is when we're close to the deadline and we believe the current lynch is a contributing certified-town; the next deadline is 50+ hours away and I personally don't think Wave's in any real danger to be lynched, so we're better off letting that slide for now.  Cixah is most likely certified townie. If I understand the roles well, as scum the best he could do would be to convince a vigilante to shoot a townie tonight, then get lynched day 2 (a poisoner would be able to cancel his kill night 2 upon seeing Cixah flip red). That means we can be sure of Cixah's intentions whenever he posts, and there's never going to be any point to challenge them. However that doesn't mean that everything he says is right. I'm not saying I find your reads useless or wrong Cixah, I just want to remind people so as to reduce the chances of sheeping/bandwagoning using your certified status as an excuse. Wave, as the post I quoted indicates, you're acting a bit contrary to what I expected from you-especially because you're a vet and you've probably dealt with mafia noobs already. Could be you having a lot on your plate lately (you seemed to imply so in the offtopic GD) and I can understand that. However, if you're feeling frustrated because you're getting your experience challenged by the very ignorants you're trying to raise properly, think of it as training for the pebble's teen years. Could also be you exaggerating (because you still don't like the way we play) to amplify the whole situation and get bigger reactions from us. Your and especially Tolkien's behaviour over day 1 made me more aware of these possibilities. In that case I'm wondering what kind of reaction you're trying to cause exactly. (For the record I'm leaning toward the latter, also because being paranoid seems like a healthy mindset atm, I just wanted to make the joke. At least I didn't accuse you of WIFOMing us with the "do you think I'm good enough to mastermind you all?" instead. ;p) On October 14 2014 00:56 Requizen wrote: That said, I think my focus has been too largely on Wave lately. This in and of itself makes me think Scum, using himself as a distraction for other Scum. Time to go into filters and weed out my town. I'm a bit perplexed by the association "I pay too much attention to Wave" => "Wave is scummy". I mean, he can certainly try to manipulate people in that direction, but whether or not you fall for it depends on you more than on him, don't you think? Just a quick observation, I agree with your intention to broaden who you're looking at (waiting for a bit more Coma/mordek myself, now that owb came out the woodwork). (On that topic, filters are weird. I looked at everyone's length after people mentioned Soniv said "enough" because I thought he wasn't very present, and he's actually got 5 pages. Oo And I only have 2 myself, despite feeling like I spammed.) Fuck that post ends up revolving a bunch around Wave in the end, although indirectly. Whatever, I still think my points have value so here it is. | ||
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jcarlsoniv
United States27922 Posts
On October 14 2014 01:00 WaveofShadow wrote: And does any of the above make me scum, good sir? Time to school you as well, I think. Can you show how it's more likely that a scum Wave decided not to vote midday because he didn't want to get caught voting in a bad place rather than me having difficulty deciding? Can you show how being indecisive emulates a scum mindset? Can you show me how it's more likely that I was trying to enact last minute shenannies to somehow further scum ends rather than simply trying to get you guys off a likely town member? I'm not saying it makes you scum. I'm saying that you shouldn't be surprised that everyone isn't just blindly following you. But maybe I'm putting too much stock in how I think a scum wave would know how to play. Also I'd like you to show me where I criticized you for not voting....cause I can't seem to find it. Maybe you can point it out to me though. You're right, I misremembered the below post. In my head I remembered you pushing harder to get me to vote. My mistake. + Show Spoiler + On October 11 2014 10:08 WaveofShadow wrote: What, you're going to let me do all the work? I doubt we'll be lynching scum if I'm the only one voting...care to join me, frand? Oh and Jeffy's recent question reminds me of a setup detail I feel like I should mention even though it's completely unrelated to anything. Actually now that I think about it I think I was going to include it in my intro post as a reason for people to protect the hell out of me tonight but oh well. + Show Spoiler + In almost every 14-player game I have been a part of on this site, especially those with the possibility of 3P, there were 2 non-town KP on the first night. Since there is no SK this likely means scum will have a vig, 2KP/night (unlikely but possible), or there will be some sort of poisoner. I have been scum in such scenarios and I have actively misled the town before by only allowing them to consider the setup options that were wrong. Just something to consider when N1 happens. Of course it is also entirely possible I am completely wrong about the above :D Personally it looks to me like you're trying to throw tired old arguments at me---mafia buzzwords if you will----without thinking about them at all and assuming people will see 'Oh Wave was hypocritical about voting must be scum' and 'wave is being defensive/throwing his weight around' (I want to see how many times that phrase has come up now and who started using it actually) and look badly upon me. This is classically known as 'shit-flinging' and it serves two scum purposes: starts fights and serves to create discord and messes with town atmosphere (with the bonus of possibly demoralizing your target---and I'm ashamed to admit it's kind of worked because of the town members who have fallen under its spell), and it possibly sets up said player for a mislynch if people are not willing to look more deeply into the accusations. What is possible town motivation for 'shit-flinging?' Honestly, can;t think of any. A good town player would sit back and actually consider my actions from both perspectives rather than tossing open-ended suspicion at me, which is what you've been doing all game. [/QUOTE] I mean, you can call it shit-flinging if you want, but I'm not the only one who's been suspicious of your play thus far, obviously. | ||
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