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Also it's fun to see Wave being called names by people other than "us". See, the dude's liked everywhere he goes!
Actually that might be a decent idea. A learning experience of sorts: either he doesn't get lynched, and I'll know what to emulate if I want to live if I ever get accused, or he gets lynched, and we know what not to say if he flips scum, or how not to defend oneself if he flips town.
I'd have said "how to recognise town" but noob scum could copy his defense too in that case, which would be misleading.
More seriously, though, how do these games actually start, apart from meta stuff? There's usually hints like noise or facial expression to pick up in IRL variants. And seeing how well the whole "mass claim" strat worked out in the LoL Mafia Wave hosted and made us host, I wouldn't want to start by imitating that.
Do we just accuse somebody at random and try to read how he defends himself/people talk about him?
I'm a bit like ketchup at the moment, that is, Alzadar posts don't necessarily bring much (listing veterans can make sense, but how do you use the information? Sure as scum they're more dangerous on paper, but they're also more experienced as townie to help with reads), and more particularly Wave.
What I mean is that I was surprised by how different his posting was from usual, esp. the assertive part since he seems quite self-conscious usually. I didn't pay attention to the Ghandi vote at first as I classified it as the usual joking around and "bullying" like Soniv did before the game started (and like we do all the time in TLLOLOTGDT).
Apparently that was serious though, so, I guess we tryhard and better avoid light jokes because everything will get scrutinised?
I don't see it scummy from Wave to start by accusing someone though. In my experience it just gets you lynched day 1 in IRL Werewolves but the setup's different, plus we can change votes anytime so I'll take that more as an attempt to pressure Ghandi and make him respond, help the game lift off, etc.
Also that Wave is a veteran doesn't mean much, he's said often enough how bad he is at Mafia, and I don't think anyone would accuse him of having anticipated an off-topic Mafia one day and done it to make himself inconspicuous in advance.
If anything I think we should focus more on Ghandi's answers than on the fact Wave accused him.
I still have 2 questions though: why do you insist that we should protect you (especially if you claim you're vanilla, although we're all gonna claim that at the start anyway)?
On October 11 2014 12:10 WaveofShadow wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 11 2014 12:07 MoonBear wrote:
Hm if we don't vote to lynch someone Day 1 we end up in Day 2 where the Scum get a free kill in exchange for information that the cop people can get. However, how do the cop people communicate their findings to us? And how would we tell if the cop is a real cop or just someone pretending to be them?
That's why we don't no-lynch.
Cops have to play smart and stay alive long enough to get a bunch of checks off, and then reveal much later in the game, or they have to attempt to push a player whom they have a redcheck on without making it obvious that they have that check. As far as claiming/counterclaiming goes, I'm not going to talk about how that works because I don't want to give newer scum ideas. If there are vet scum on the team they'll know.
I take the bolded part as a "I'm confident I'll live until claiming starts a few days down the line, and if there are veterans amongst the scum I'll be able to read them at that point by how they approach it". Is that what you're trying to tell us?
Of course if he keeps posting one-liners that don't answer/contribute in another way he's going to look suspicious to me.
I'd also like to know how Requizen feels about the game. It's not an accusation, but, well, you've often shown a defeatist/pessimistic attitude in the off-topic thread, and you may have gotten over it by now, but I just want to make sure you're not going to take it badly or get frustrated if someone starts questioning/accusing you?
Only game I followed was the LoL Mafia (not even till the end, so verbose) and I remember gtrsrs basically afk-ing because he got sensitive over someone trying to get him lynched.
Back to Wave, your point on the post I quoted is fair. It was the "if there are vets on the scum team they'll know" that made me tick, because I took it as "they'll do it and that'll make them recognisable" instead of "they'll be able to tell their teammates".
However I'm not satisfied about why we should protect you. Sure if Ghandi flips scum it means you'll probably be a target and protecting the guy with good reads makes sense. But you haven't said anything so far about why you think he's scum so if he flips it'll be random chance.
Also, you ask for protection at the same time as you accuse him, but we have the whole 24 hours of Night 1 to decide to protect you if he flips, right? So no need to even ask for that now, can just wait, and make your point once it happens.
+ Show Spoiler [Irrelevant] +
I'd have nitpicked about your claim of WIFOM on the basis that you say the same "you have to protect me because scum will kill me", eg. if you're still alive and noone claims to have protected you you're likely scum, but then I realised it all hinges on the premise that Ghandi flips scum, and in that case you'd be stupid to make us lynch your own teammate, making the whole thing moot. Fuck this isn't necessarily hard but it's only the first 16 hours, there's going to be so much information to process later on. x_x
In short, I see absolutely no reason to protect you until the lynch is flipped (assuming we do lynch Ghandi), and I don't like your being adamant that you found a scum without any reason given.
You still strike me as townie, but I'd want your reasons for accusing Ghandi. Insisting that he's scum is odd if said reasons are "just stirring the pot to start things up" (which is a fair one in my book).
- waiting on Ghandi posting "for real". No reads right now, but I'll be suspicious if he keeps doing one-lines
- Wave sounds townie enough, but I still don't like his "protect me" command right off the bat, and how he hasn't provided any reason for Ghandi yet (but I'm still more interested about Ghandi's reaction than said reasons).
- genuinely asking if Req will be fine if/when it gets "aggressive"?
In most setups I've played it seems standard to have between 1/4th and 1/3rd of the players as scum, so I'd guess at 3~5 here. More like 3-4 because 5 in a 14-players setup seems preeeeetty scum-favoured. Also wtf why do you want me beaten up.
Wave you keep pointing out that people make accusation and reads without any real argument behind it but you were the first to accuse someone (with a vote no less) and we're still waiting for any reason from you. Pot/kettle and all that.
I'm not even accusing you I'm just asking for clarification, you straight want Ghandi lynched.
+ Show Spoiler +
- Yes scum should know each other.
- Neutral toward Wave, leaning town from his last few posts. I believe we shouldn't judge him for making the first move (judging by the content, yes, but not for accusing someone just to make people move.)
- Actually pretty interested in seeing Requizen play the game seriously. Leaning town for now, I want to read his opinion.
- Ghandi wtf are you doing.
0K I was thinking "weird than MB wouldn't post yet unless it was busy, from the kind of person he appears to me I think he'd love playing these games as an opportunity to be cheeky and playful", I eat dinner, then bam biggest post so far.
I'm not going to call you scum but the TVTropes link sure would deserve it. Good thing I already knew that one.
More seriously, about the setup scum should know who they are, because the basic setups have scum collectively killing one person at night, so they have to be able to communicate to agree on a target + Show Spoiler +
(in Thiercelieux they can even kill one of them by a majority vote, which can prove useful as a possible role is the White Wolf, which is basically a scum who can kill another scum every other night, and tries to finish the game all alone)
I don't think Dandel Ion would go for a specific setup (I haven't heard of any where scum don't know each other but I assume they exist) since it's a newbie Mafia, plus the OP talks about obs and scum quicktopic so TL;DR: scum should know each other.
While I'm not calling Wave scum, I see where the doubt can arise, though.
All in all, he started things up with his first post, but apart from that he didn't contribute much, simply asking people questions without many reads or exposed reasonings himself, and I say that with him calling me 100% townie.
I mean, sure I won't relish the trust. But what he did could be interpreted as "Well I've been outed, better do damage control by claiming I was testing the waters, and since Alaric pinned the post down I'll call him townie so he's in good mood/will toward me", and I see how people could find it suspicious.
However, and especially in a newbie game, it's important to get things started, and I don't find it strange that Wave as a veteran was the one to do it. He's been more assertive in the last few posts, and I'm typing slowly, so it's all getting a bit fudged @_@
TL;DR: before the page with Moonbear's post I'd have agreed that Wave hasn't done much apart from kickstarting the game, but I think we shouldn't judge on that action and he has posted more aggressively since.
Still a bit neutral.
+ Show Spoiler +
I'm not considering the "risk" of you being scum and giving me a townie read to make me friendly toward you, mostly because Soniv seems to agree with that. And even with RNG, what are the odds of both vets being scum, to coordinate like that? So a potentially scrutinizable move that I'll let slide.
On October 12 2014 03:48 Requizen wrote:
Why is asking for roles scummy? Maybe people are more truthful than you'd like to believe.
Voting at this stage seems dumb. No one has said anything to out themselves in any real way, other than the really long posts which make me think they're too tryhard to be Town.
But I've never played TL mafia so what do I know.
Aside from Moonbear, the other person I was interested in seeing posting is actually you, Requizen.
I don't know if we can call it meta or what, but it's mostly that you played (and enjoyed) 999 and Virtue's Last Reward, the plots of which are basically Mafia games from what I know.
When you talked about it it was mainly about some characters and their background, but I believe you liked the "puzzle" aspect of the Mafia part or you wouldn't have enjoyed the games as much. Which makes me think if you applied yourself to Mafia you could do a pretty good job of analysing things (at least the logical situations if not the people and bluffs), hopefully as a townie.
Well we also know that your attention span isn't your biggest asset, so I wouldn't be surprised if you had issues feeling involved—in short, "he might like the setting but the harsh interactions may push we away from it".
Considering this your shitposting/"I don't care" attitude looks genuine to me (and in line with how you usually act), so I'd classify you as town. I also want to give you a chance, eg. give you some time to find the motivation to involve yourself in the game, rather than cruise along or feel annoyed by our queries.
A few pointers:
- claims have already been addressed while I posted
- votes are not only the tool to lynch someone, otherwise we'd just PM Dandel right before the deadline and he'd write who voted what and lynch someone. Having a vote count on your head can be threatening, especially if you're set up for lynch at a given point. That's why when someone votes against you, it's more often to gauge your reaction than to really want you dead. As people pointed out (about Wave, hue), as a vanilla townie dying in the place of a "blue" (the townies with powers iirc?) is still a better outcome for the town, so a VT aware of his has no reason to panic* : if you're getting overly defensive, does it mean you're a blue fearing the town may lose an asset, are you scum freaking out at the idea that you got caught? That's what we're looking for.
Personally I'd vote sparingly to give more weight to it when I decide to vote against someone before the deadline, say if I want answers. Apparently Soniv's in the same boat.
* of course newbies may not realise that VT can be treated as "meatshields", and getting lynched Day 1 is never fun so noone wants it. Why I won't read too much into someone getting sensitive over a vote.
TL;DR: I think it's a genuine display of Requizen's usual personality so I lean town, plus I think he has potential for the game if he finds a spark to involve himself so I'd specifically want to avoid lynching him D1 even if he was posting suspicious stuff.
Ghandieagle still hasn't said anything as to why he votes against Wave, except for a "hunch", and his posts go into a bit of all directions. That wasn't the answers or additional posts I was looking for, Ghandi, and as I said that's looking more and more suspicious to me.
Then I refresh the page and see you're actually voting Cixah, specifically citing "bandwagoning" as your reason. Hoping on an already launched train (so you don't bring anything new, which means your contribution is minimal at best, unless the vote shakes things up but even that isn't reliant on you) is a really dubious move, it's like you're trying to appear scum.
Oh wtf I refresh again and two more pages. Guys! D:
Well, nothing new for Ghandieagle.
So, buddy, fight for your life, not for your neighbour's death! And that means telling us why you think he's scum, not who you think is scum.
This game is torture for my inner grammar nazi.
My post is also a mess despite all the TL;DR so I'll try to explain it a bit better for Req (even though I think Wave would disapprove, since I guess he'd count it as giving scum information?).
You go on hunches, because people will fuck up and if they don't you want them to fuck up anyway. Once they do, you pin them to the wall and shove it under their nose and when they're unable to come up with a convincing explanation, you lynch them.
There are several postulates you can follow:
- scum are lurkers because they think the less they post, the less likely they are to slip up (that's where for example you can start voting against someone; if he's not afk that'll probably spring him into action as he doesn't want to die)
- when you lynch a scum, you examine who was defending it. I don't have much experience so I don't know how much it holds, but in the games I've played newbie scum would sometimes try to defend their teammates for fear that they'll be in a difficult situation if one of them gets lynched. So the next day people will look at them and say "Hey they were pretty adamant in their defense of X yesterday, wonder if they're scum too". It happens rarely though, because that implies somebody talked and that's so rare in my games. T_T
- on the contrary when scum talk it's not in their interest to make the game progress. They'll try to put town on the wrong tracks, push for lynching townies, or simply say a bunch of useless stuff so people lose time (and clarity of mind, there's so much to read wtf) with it, and in the meantime they can't be accused of lurking since they posted.
That's Wave's beef with Moonbear for example (even moreso because Moonbear used metaphors and stuff to colour his post I'd wager).
So if you want to help you can analyse people's posts, and try to formulate you deductions/hunches/"reads" in a concise way, or interrogate people you find suspicious.
Basically, be proactive and efficient in hunting down scum.
On October 12 2014 05:29 WaveofShadow wrote:
Plz Alaric. I haven't done much? Even before MB's post?
SO much plz.
I get why (and soniv) are holding back on voting, but at the very least you do need to have some sort of direction and/or scum read to go off of. Are you leaning towards Jeff right now? if not, then who?
Alright (also WTF YOU ALREADY HAVE 5 PAGES OF FILTER).
+ Show Spoiler [Wave part, that's secondary] +
Regarding you, looking at your filter the first 3 pages don't have much. Basically, you point out some distrust of ketchup, give Soniv then me town cred, and "come clean" about your first post (though as you mentioned at that point most of us had seen through it anyway).
Starting from the end of page 3 you make accusations, but Asmo's post was so obviously scummy that it didn't take much really. Req's shifty in his own confrontational ways but that's Req. And starting from page 4's second half (so after Moonbear's post) you start actually making more points rather than simply commentating "I like this post / Jeff wtf you doing", most notably toward Req and Moonbear.
So... I'd say there's some substance to what I said? (Also reading your filter made me realise you seem to regularly rely on Soniv to confirm your impressions.)
To be honest, I'd have read your reaction in the quoted post as suspicious hadn't you been confrontational with everyone in here already. And my town lean for you would be stronger weren't you a vet, I admit it.
Generally you seem to be going back-and-forth, which leaves me puzzled at times. I assume as people get more experienced this is normal and players aren't as straight-forward, but it also makes it harder for me to interpret stuff. I guess I'll just say you still read townie to me, I'm just slowly realising that you may as bad as you told us. ;p
More seriously, onto the scum reads.
I'm a carebear at heart and know it sucks to die day 1 with the feeling that you didn't get to play, so I actually found it hard when I started thinking "who could make a good lynch?" earlier today, because I know every player here and it'd make me sad/"uneasy" to see whoever we lynch look bummed to go out so early. Thanksfully Ghandi's dubious behaviour made me realise that I'll have no qualms if someone's posting makes me think they deserve it.
TL;DR: scum reads are
- Asmodeus (main one)
- Moonbear/Alzadar below, in no particular order
- I'm all for lynching Leprechaun and Jeff if they make us, too.
Soniv - Undecided. Like you, he waddles in and out, but it's less obvious because he doesn't post as much. Him going on Alzadar isn't suspicious because I think he's been the first one to do it? I'd add that he seems to have changed his mind, but considering how under scrutiny Alzadar is now, that may as well be a fine scum move to gtfo once he's led town onto someone. He said that he's more passive day 1 and I'm willing to believe that—with the caveat that I'll pay him a closer look after that.
Alzadar - To be honest I didn't even bother with him. His list of games played had me go "wtf" but I certainly don't have the time (nor willingness) to go through past games' filters so I had a bias. Overall he seems suspicious, but with 2-3 peole on his back already I thought I was better off looking elsewhere instead of piling up on a single person.
After going through his filter he seems kind of... all over the place. He has for him that he egged Moonbear early, was the first to point Cixah, and didn't panic when he was attacked (before I explained that panicking is bad, otherwise it wouldn't mean anything), on the other hand he has a bunch of tactics he mentions that seem... heavy-handed, to say the least, especially in a newbie game. Either he's scum trying hard to appear contributing, or he's very enthusiastic/eager. Is he usually as tryhard as he claimed to be in one of his first posts?
ComaDose, owb - lurky lurkers lurking. Makes both of them suspicious as they basically didn't say anything, but I guess it's closer to policy lynch than scum hunches. They still have 24 hours to change that.
Asmodeus - Very suspicious. Nothing too egregious after his first outburst (unlike Ghandi), but as honored I am with the town reads, once both you and Soniv gave it to me it's pretty easy for someone to be parroting the vets, and accusing Alzadar and Moonbear when it did it wasn't the hardest thing to do. Actually Soniv accused Alzadar first, and you came on pretty strong on Moonbear. He also answered with noob claims to both of you specifically. It looks like he's trying to follow the vets. Be it to make himself look inconspicuous or because he values your experiences, I'm still growing more and more suspicious of the "shitposting/fake afk-ing into parroting the vets" behaviour.
Lord Tolkien - Suspicious. Not "very" this time. I mean, he's basically shitposting and asking for a policy lynch (which is the least risky way of pushing a lynch when you think about it), but after seeing how Ghandi and Req were treated he can't genuinely believe he can get away with it. So it's hard to keep suspecting him, unless I start considering that he's mindgaming us, and I don't want to go down that path (would that be a WIFOM, if I got that right?). I guess I have to assume he's "trolling"/fooling around then (which echoes what I initially wrote about Ghandi's behaviour), but still, worth keeping an eye out for later.
MoonBear - Suspicious, but he hasn't said too much. Apart from his post and the way you criticised it, he asks a lot of questions on how things work. In itself I wouldn't be too surprised, and trying to make sure you know how to pull the levers at your disposal is obviously fine, but the way he does it surprises me. Maybe it's me overreading (it's not like I know him personally, mainly going from the persona he has in the off-topic thread here), but I'm waiting for him to explain himself more, the way I did for Ghandi at first.
Ghandieagle - since we're here. Obviously suspicious. To be honest, I don't really want to lynch him, but he keeps jeffing things up, so if I have to actually try and/or throw my vote at him to get something more out of him, then so be it.
Requizen - Uh... I think I've explained myself enough, but whatever. I think he'd be a good player, or at least an active and involved one, if he felt like it. So despite his hiccups—which are totally in line with genuine Req, reason enough for me not to accuse him (although the fact that he's easily startled plays a part in why I wouldn't jump on him first)—I think he's town. I want him to be town, actually—heck, from a spectator point of view I'd want him to stay alive even if he was scum, were it not for the fact that, well, that would obviously endanger town.
At this point I'm basically playing favourites because Moonbear and him were the guys I was most looking forward to see their posts (is that even English), and since he's got no motivation/IRL activites/is slow on the startup in general, I'm trying to keep him alive to feed my curiosity/expectations later.
On October 12 2014 05:42 Lord Tolkien wrote:
Also 6ah, it was a super early claim. We haven't even broken 24hrs yet, and like 90% of TL mafia is played in the last 3 hours of the day.
You mean 23h-2h for me? Well, fuck. x')
It took me something like two hours to type all that, while doing some stuff on the side but also reading filters and refreshing the thead to take "in-between" posts into account. This game. Damn.
The "you're bad" was an innocent jab for once, Wave, kind of "Well I'm not quite sure, so that probably means that you really aren't good otherwise you'd have already convinced me!".
As for my vote, Asmo, Alzadar and Moonbear are pretty much on the grill already. I've just thrown some stuff at Asmo so there's still to see him reac tot that. Hence why I'm more looking toward Coma/owb/Ghandi/Tolkien atm (well Ghandi answered somewhat just now).
... I guess you could argue that if you grilling Alzadar then moving onto Moonbear after other people start banwagonning against him makes me weary, saying Asmo is my biggest scum read but then devoting my attention to others is hypocritical. Uh... I prob have to reconsider some stuff.
Alternatively if the lurkers post I won't have to wait for them. x)
But in the end I assume that if we're tryharding then everything will be read regardless of if I sum up, use spoiler tags, or not, so might as well use TL;DR and bold to show the "important" part and make my posts more readable, while still giving you my train of thought. It also minimises the amount of posts to go through since you already got elements instead of having to go through the "opinion - why? - first reasoning post" dynamic.
I sure will try to keep it shorter next time because it's pretty darn time-consuming.
I'm happy to see Tolkien post for real... at first. I didn't like the post too much, on the plus side it helped me realise while someone (Soniv?) criticised me for responding to Wave with a "list".
He's already got a few people on his back so I won't add to the bandwagon, though (that's my stance: if we look for info, esp. D1, then I'd rather consider options over going tunnel-vision on a single person). I'll just point out that his behaviour kinda resembles Wave's at the start (with the whole "I'll come clean" post), but much more extreme. (And same as I told Wave I'll keep a tab on that.)
Deadline is close and I'd have preferred to do that earlier but
I'm still not decided on you.
We said we're laying newbie claims to rest so I'm not going to hold it either for you or against you.
Also as I mentioned your scum reads were Alzadar (started by Soniv) and Moonbear (pointed by Wave), and when you switched your vote it was from Wave's call to Soniv's call, after an exchange with Soniv. You also didn't give reason apart from apparently agreeing with Soniv's.
I have my doubts against Moonbear too but like Tolkien he's got a bunch of people on his butt and hasn't appeared (had time?) to defend himself yet, so I'll ignore his behaviour when looking at yours.
So far you haven't motivated your calls much. I can get that Soniv makes a good point, but when you're already following a lot I'd like to see your own thoughts more, to show that you're not just bandwagoning and you have new stuff to contribute too. Apart from what Soniv said, what makes you suspect MoonBear?
Also in a more general manner, do you think his posts about blue roles are what make him suspicious? Why?
I'm not so much interested in your reads as I am in seeing how you behave "by yourself" rather than when following vets.
Speaking of which,
@vets, how relevant is the topic of lurkers not posting much (aside from IRL stuff) because they're newbie blues and afraid to stick their heads out and draw mafia attention? I considered that aside from lurking scum and newbie "stage fright" but I assume we should refrain from said topic until later, because it risks giving scum info/reads to work on?