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On September 24 2014 16:33 DarthPunk wrote:He already explained himself hapa Show nested quote +On September 24 2014 16:29 VisceraEyes wrote:On September 24 2014 16:21 Hapahauli wrote:@ VEIf you made my "town points" thing to be suspicious and mafia-motivated, why did you play along so much? On September 24 2014 11:42 VisceraEyes wrote:On September 24 2014 08:19 geript wrote:
I'm half tempted to flip CR to see if VE is confirmed town or not. Is it because he wants to call me "confirmed town" based on CR's flip in spite of no such certainty coming with such a flip? On September 24 2014 11:43 VisceraEyes wrote:On September 24 2014 11:43 Grackaroni wrote:
I want those townie points but I don't know why. I get 'em bitch, I gave reasoning. You just quoted a post GET OFF ME!!! On September 24 2014 11:45 VisceraEyes wrote:On September 24 2014 11:44 geript wrote:On September 24 2014 11:42 VisceraEyes wrote:On September 24 2014 08:19 geript wrote:
I'm half tempted to flip CR to see if VE is confirmed town or not. Is it because he wants to call me "confirmed town" based on CR's flip in spite of no such certainty coming with such a flip? Meh so I read OP wrong sue me. I'm guessing Hapa's reasoning, I didn't say I thought you were scummy for it. I would absolutely LOVE for you to call me confirmed town for whatever reason you want! What I find suspicious is that there wasn't any townie points for me to have Hapa! THERE WERE NO TOWNIE POINTS FOR ME TO WREST FROM YOU WILLFULLY!!!!
Do you see VE's response as serious? Because I don't.
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On September 24 2014 16:35 DarthPunk wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2014 16:34 Hapahauli wrote:On September 24 2014 16:33 DarthPunk wrote:He already explained himself hapa On September 24 2014 16:29 VisceraEyes wrote:On September 24 2014 16:21 Hapahauli wrote:@ VEIf you made my "town points" thing to be suspicious and mafia-motivated, why did you play along so much? On September 24 2014 11:42 VisceraEyes wrote:On September 24 2014 08:19 geript wrote:
I'm half tempted to flip CR to see if VE is confirmed town or not. Is it because he wants to call me "confirmed town" based on CR's flip in spite of no such certainty coming with such a flip? On September 24 2014 11:43 VisceraEyes wrote:On September 24 2014 11:43 Grackaroni wrote:
I want those townie points but I don't know why. I get 'em bitch, I gave reasoning. You just quoted a post GET OFF ME!!! On September 24 2014 11:45 VisceraEyes wrote:On September 24 2014 11:44 geript wrote:On September 24 2014 11:42 VisceraEyes wrote:On September 24 2014 08:19 geript wrote:
I'm half tempted to flip CR to see if VE is confirmed town or not. Is it because he wants to call me "confirmed town" based on CR's flip in spite of no such certainty coming with such a flip? Meh so I read OP wrong sue me. I'm guessing Hapa's reasoning, I didn't say I thought you were scummy for it. I would absolutely LOVE for you to call me confirmed town for whatever reason you want! What I find suspicious is that there wasn't any townie points for me to have Hapa! THERE WERE NO TOWNIE POINTS FOR ME TO WREST FROM YOU WILLFULLY!!!! Do you see VE's response as serious? Because I don't. It makes sense to me.
Doesn't make sense to me at all.
Because obviously VE or anyone didn't come close to mentioning the stuff in my case.
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The more I read VE"s read-post, the more it feels like it's packed with this really contrived pseudo-logic.
Give me a minute.
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http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/467155-devils-riddle-mafia?page=26#516
Alright I'm going to go through this post read-by-read, because a lot of it just straight-up doesn't make sense. I'll ignore the read on me, because obviously I'm going to disagree with it no matter what allignment I am (although I can post thoughts if someone requests so).
It's also a read I can see a townie making. The other reads... not so much.
yamato is probably town - standard 1-liner posts, general observations...I don't like that he's suspicious of me, but not everyone is as perfect as me.
"General observations" and "standard 1-liners" are objectively suspicious, and are more often used as scumtells as opposed to town-tells.
It's also very strange to see him this confident about a read like that so early on.
Damdred and I seem to be on the same wavelength at least in terms of what we're looking for to find mafia - gonna throw him in the townpile for now and see how I like that.
If you read Damdred's filter, it's hard to imagine what this "same wavelength" could be:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/467155-devils-riddle-mafia?user=Damdred
This is the only interaction that VE and Damdred have, and it's on the subject of CR being the Defender.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/467155-devils-riddle-mafia?page=17#331
Other than that, Damdred's filter is
a) Other stuff on CR (irrelevant to "being on the same wavelegnth in scumhunting"
b) Suspicion on geript (not mentioned by VE)
c) Finding me town (the exact opposite of VE's read)
So by all objective measures, this read is completely contrived by VE.
MM1 gets 1 Townie Brownie for making a decent case on Kush before he entered the thread. If we lynch a lurker instead of a scumspect, I'm willing to go with Kush based on MM1's observation. Will not lynch MM1 today.
MM1 did not make a case on Kush.
CR hasn't said anything more in our QT. He's claimed 3rd Party in the thread. There you go.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/467155-devils-riddle-mafia?page=16#310
This is far fromt he "definitive" answer promised by VE earlier, not to mention that that post I linked in retrospect is a 3-paragraph way of saying "Idunno about CR's claim"
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On September 24 2014 16:44 DarthPunk wrote:
When you mentioned the game (does anyone see what I see) VE tried to guess what it was you were talking about. He leaves, While he is gone you post a case on geript that doesn't really contain anything that would make sense in the (do you see what I see) game.
Therefore VE finds that suspicious and something that mafia would do.
You ask for clarification, he clarifies by saying there was no townie points to be had because the game you started was unsolvable due to it being, in VE's opinion, disingenuous or fraudulent.
Which is a position I can empathize with.
Why are you answering for VE? He is perfectly capable of answering for himself.
There are many things he needs to answer for me.
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And DP, I'm actually far more interested in the tone of his post.
On September 24 2014 16:29 VisceraEyes wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2014 16:21 Hapahauli wrote:@ VEIf you made my "town points" thing to be suspicious and mafia-motivated, why did you play along so much? On September 24 2014 11:42 VisceraEyes wrote:On September 24 2014 08:19 geript wrote:
I'm half tempted to flip CR to see if VE is confirmed town or not. Is it because he wants to call me "confirmed town" based on CR's flip in spite of no such certainty coming with such a flip? On September 24 2014 11:43 VisceraEyes wrote:On September 24 2014 11:43 Grackaroni wrote:
I want those townie points but I don't know why. I get 'em bitch, I gave reasoning. You just quoted a post GET OFF ME!!! On September 24 2014 11:45 VisceraEyes wrote:On September 24 2014 11:44 geript wrote:On September 24 2014 11:42 VisceraEyes wrote:On September 24 2014 08:19 geript wrote:
I'm half tempted to flip CR to see if VE is confirmed town or not. Is it because he wants to call me "confirmed town" based on CR's flip in spite of no such certainty coming with such a flip? Meh so I read OP wrong sue me. I'm guessing Hapa's reasoning, I didn't say I thought you were scummy for it. I would absolutely LOVE for you to call me confirmed town for whatever reason you want! What I find suspicious is that there wasn't any townie points for me to have Hapa! THERE WERE NO TOWNIE POINTS FOR ME TO WREST FROM YOU WILLFULLY!!!!
It toes a very awkward line between serious and trolly. And that does not feel natural to me at all.
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@ Yamato
Does VE have a history of reading you early and well?
i.e. Is he someone that can have a confident opinion on you early on?
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On September 24 2014 16:57 DarthPunk wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2014 16:53 Hapahauli wrote:And DP, I'm actually far more interested in the tone of his post. On September 24 2014 16:29 VisceraEyes wrote:On September 24 2014 16:21 Hapahauli wrote:@ VEIf you made my "town points" thing to be suspicious and mafia-motivated, why did you play along so much? On September 24 2014 11:42 VisceraEyes wrote:On September 24 2014 08:19 geript wrote:
I'm half tempted to flip CR to see if VE is confirmed town or not. Is it because he wants to call me "confirmed town" based on CR's flip in spite of no such certainty coming with such a flip? On September 24 2014 11:43 VisceraEyes wrote:On September 24 2014 11:43 Grackaroni wrote:
I want those townie points but I don't know why. I get 'em bitch, I gave reasoning. You just quoted a post GET OFF ME!!! On September 24 2014 11:45 VisceraEyes wrote:On September 24 2014 11:44 geript wrote:On September 24 2014 11:42 VisceraEyes wrote:On September 24 2014 08:19 geript wrote:
I'm half tempted to flip CR to see if VE is confirmed town or not. Is it because he wants to call me "confirmed town" based on CR's flip in spite of no such certainty coming with such a flip? Meh so I read OP wrong sue me. I'm guessing Hapa's reasoning, I didn't say I thought you were scummy for it. I would absolutely LOVE for you to call me confirmed town for whatever reason you want! What I find suspicious is that there wasn't any townie points for me to have Hapa! THERE WERE NO TOWNIE POINTS FOR ME TO WREST FROM YOU WILLFULLY!!!! It toes a very awkward line between serious and trolly. And that does not feel natural to me at all. The tone is not alignment indicativeand it is consistent with other posts he made during the day.
It is very off when you're dealing with someone who you think is mafia.
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On September 24 2014 17:00 geript wrote:
I get where you're coming from Hapa re: tone. It just feels really weird for you to make a good logical post re:VE calling Damfred town bros and on the same page as him to the tone read. Something that's definitely, IMO, not really quite in your wheelhouse and less odd from VE as either alignment.
Are you saying I don't do tone reads? huh?
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On September 24 2014 17:05 geript wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2014 17:01 Hapahauli wrote:On September 24 2014 17:00 geript wrote:
I get where you're coming from Hapa re: tone. It just feels really weird for you to make a good logical post re:VE calling Damfred town bros and on the same page as him to the tone read. Something that's definitely, IMO, not really quite in your wheelhouse and less odd from VE as either alignment. Are you saying I don't do tone reads? huh? I can't really remember you doing them in any of the games I've played or read. I've always remembered you as logical and methodical. I actually am pretty sure on my read on VE. I want to sleep on it though.
It's something I've tried to pay a lot of attention to since in the Shadow game, where gonzaw made a couple of really good posts on Holyflare's emotional inconsistencies.
That was also one of my last games before the extended break from mafia I took, so I'm not surprised you haven't seen me use these types of reads.
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On September 24 2014 17:16 geript wrote:
Also fwiw Hapa, on the face it doesn't look good. But I've seen townies do something like that a bunch.
I'd be less concerned if VE made one botched read. One bad read does not make someone mafia.
Three to four in one post? You would literally have to not read the thread to hold all of those reads simultaneously.
It all seems very deceptive. Like he skimmed the thread quick, threw together a bunch of reads for the sake of completeness, and portrayed himself as very confident and on top of things.
So it's everything combined that sets the scum-alarms off.
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The Damdred read especially is just... ugh.
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Yes I do get quite buttmad when someone who should know how I play as town botches my meta beyond repair.
I am grumpy and tired.
Will read Oats tomorrow.
Gnite world.
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On September 24 2014 18:05 VisceraEyes wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2014 16:30 Hapahauli wrote:On September 24 2014 16:29 VisceraEyes wrote:On September 24 2014 16:21 Hapahauli wrote:@ VEIf you made my "town points" thing to be suspicious and mafia-motivated, why did you play along so much? On September 24 2014 11:42 VisceraEyes wrote:On September 24 2014 08:19 geript wrote:
I'm half tempted to flip CR to see if VE is confirmed town or not. Is it because he wants to call me "confirmed town" based on CR's flip in spite of no such certainty coming with such a flip? On September 24 2014 11:43 VisceraEyes wrote:On September 24 2014 11:43 Grackaroni wrote:
I want those townie points but I don't know why. I get 'em bitch, I gave reasoning. You just quoted a post GET OFF ME!!! On September 24 2014 11:45 VisceraEyes wrote:On September 24 2014 11:44 geript wrote:On September 24 2014 11:42 VisceraEyes wrote:On September 24 2014 08:19 geript wrote:
I'm half tempted to flip CR to see if VE is confirmed town or not. Is it because he wants to call me "confirmed town" based on CR's flip in spite of no such certainty coming with such a flip? Meh so I read OP wrong sue me. I'm guessing Hapa's reasoning, I didn't say I thought you were scummy for it. I would absolutely LOVE for you to call me confirmed town for whatever reason you want! What I find suspicious is that there wasn't any townie points for me to have Hapa! THERE WERE NO TOWNIE POINTS FOR ME TO WREST FROM YOU WILLFULLY!!!! I'm not joking around VE. Explain yourself. I'm not joking around either. There was no point to the post you made referencing "townie points", which means that you never found anything suspicious about geript. Your whole "case" on him is just listing out his posts and making generic statements about them, which I could literally do about anyone in the thread as either alignment and I know geript can too, and I have a sneaking suspicion that you know that too. So don't tell ME to explain myself Hapa. YOU explain YOURSELF. WHY were there no townie points to be had? Why did you say there was something specific about geript's posts that you noticed which you never really mention? Unless you're talking about the whole "disjointed from the thread" thing which I don't even see and looks completely made up.
All of this is pretty simple to answer: I forced the hell out of my case on geript because it's something I like doing in mafia games. Things like "townie points" and "this is not a joke case" are devices used to get people interested and read what I post. Create a big thread event, and watch the activity and actions unfold.
You should know this first hand. In Shadow Mini mafia, I forced a very early case on you as town. Same as in the Duke Nukem Hydra game. It's fun, creates activity, and all and all is a good time.
Now since we both think the other is mafia, it's your turn to answer me VE.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/467155-devils-riddle-mafia?page=28#547
You made a post calling me scum and dropping a handful of town-reads. Those town-reads look completely fabricated and incomprehensible.
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On September 24 2014 18:44 VisceraEyes wrote:
Yamato will surely verify that I can and do read him confidently, early and well.
We shall see.
My read on Damdred is based on him noticing the same thing about geript that I did when you mentioned it.
This doesn't hold water. Not only do you not mention geript in your reads post, but Damdred thinks I'm town. How is that reomtely on the same "wavelength" and deserving of throwing someone on a "townpile"?
My read on MM is based on exactly what I said it was.
Oh I actually did miss that MM post. Regardless, it's bullshit.
On September 24 2014 11:57 MysteryMeat1 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2014 11:52 VisceraEyes wrote:On September 24 2014 11:50 MysteryMeat1 wrote:
Can i have one? I'll give you a Townie Brownie if you make a mafia case on Kush before he even enters the thread. If i had to make a case, it would be town kush would have posted already? I dont think ive been in a game where kush was mafia iirc
So this post exonerates MM from a lynch today, and is a rational reason to lynch kush? Is that correct?
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On September 24 2014 18:57 DarthPunk wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2014 18:54 VisceraEyes wrote:On September 24 2014 11:42 Damdred wrote:On September 24 2014 08:19 geript wrote:
I'm half tempted to flip CR to see if VE is confirmed town or not. I kinda don't like this geript post This is what I'm referring to. On September 24 2014 11:42 VisceraEyes wrote:On September 24 2014 08:19 geript wrote:
I'm half tempted to flip CR to see if VE is confirmed town or not. Is it because he wants to call me "confirmed town" based on CR's flip in spite of no such certainty coming with such a flip? I'm not talking about his reads, I mean he's approaching the game with the same mindset as me so I trust him. Unlike you. Yeah VE is town.
No way. He's so much more paranoid than this as town. The very fact that he can give town passes like that is incomprehensible for his town play.
Town VE and "multiple confident town-reads" are oil and water.
I'll post something more detailed tomorrow.
##Vote VE
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Got home today wondering if my stuff on VE last night was my own confirmation bias or something legitimate. And I think it's legitimate.
Everything about VE's play screams "false confidence".
This is a quote from VE in Storm 2 mafia.
On July 08 2014 10:01 VisceraEyes wrote:
It's essentially that he felt the need to come in here and be seen interacting with people in the thread, but didn't say a single thing that could even be construed as an opinion. Everyone else who was active early on has continued to show signs of life, but mderg just made a few throwaway posts and then peaced out.
##Vote: mderg
If anyone's got anything better I'm all ears, but I'm not interested in lynching any super active players at least this phase. It's counterproductive. Active players will eventually give you more to go on.
It's very descriptive of his early town Day 1 play. Town VE likes going for people who aren't active and are not contributing.
To go after me this confidently early on is really really unlike his town-play. And this is very consistent through his recent town-games.
In LXVIII, he is on a lot of wagons, focusing mostly on Lurkers and newer players. First Fecalcast, then an inactive holyflare, then a brief OMGUS on Rayn before wanting to lynch an afk Palmar at the end of the day due to town consensus.
In Storm 2, he tunnles mderg, a classic Day 1 lurker.
In Neat and Tidy Mafia, he goes after MysteryMeat for early Day 1, who was inactive/lurkish/etc.
In Normal Mini LVI, he reads SloOsh and BH as possibly mafia, but turns down voting them in favor of a lurkish player, mderg:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/458796-normal-mini-mafia-lvi?page=14#262
The basic summary is that VE as town is not a player who confidently locks onto one player. He's a guy that's always mindful of inactives, has a self-awareness of his play and the rest of the game, to the point where he will drop his own reads to consolidate with the opinion of the town.
To go after me (a vet, and the most active player in the game so far) so early and so confidently is so unlike his town-play. To instantly read two less-active players as town (MM and Damdred) so early into the game is borderline insanity for his town play.
Take a look at this quote from VE's most recent town game (LXVIII):
On September 15 2014 23:28 VisceraEyes wrote:
I don't want to lynch rayn but I will if all my townies agree he's mafia.
But frankly I don't want to lynch one of the Rock Stars either, so I don't like disagree with rayn. Palmar gave a TONE read. Does he do that? When did he die and become Robik? What's going on here?
He reads rayn as town, but is self-aware enough of his own read-accuracy that he's willing to be bullied off of reads.
YOSO Mafia contains my favorite example of this:
On April 27 2014 05:46 VisceraEyes wrote:
Like whatever you don't like my townread of Caller. Cool story bros.
##Unvote
##Vote: Caller
Maybe you're right. The remainder of my posts will be about other players. Thank you for your patience and understanding.
...where VE literally gets bullied off of his town-read of Caller pages after he makes it. Self-awareness of his own accuracy, etc.
So VE is so mindful of thread sentiment and the opinions of other townies that he can be bullied off of his own reads. Consistently. He'll even swap votes just because other people aren't agreeing with him without even changing his mind about his reads.
VE is defined by confidence.
And this confidence usually manifests itself through his reads.
His early Day 1 play in Catastrophe Mafia:
On April 03 2014 12:06 VisceraEyes wrote:
iamperfection is saying all the right things to all the right people. #toptownmvpyoloswag420blazeit
I'm town too, and we're going to wreck face. Get dominated scum.
On April 03 2014 12:22 VisceraEyes wrote:Show nested quote +On April 03 2014 12:19 justanothertownie wrote:On April 03 2014 12:14 Killing wrote:On April 03 2014 12:04 justanothertownie wrote:On April 03 2014 11:58 Killing wrote:On April 03 2014 11:51 justanothertownie wrote:On April 03 2014 11:49 Killing wrote:On April 03 2014 09:55 justanothertownie wrote:On April 03 2014 09:51 yamato77 wrote:
Dandel's post makes me want to kill him, too.
Rayn's reads are shitty because there's no reason to go "YEP HE'S TOWN" 5 minutes into the game unless you're mafia trying to make friends. I disagree. So the actual reads are not the problem here? Can you explain what this means? I don't think there is no reason to post early gut reads. It is much more useful than proposing a random lynch for example. So you think gut reads are better than just saying nothing and random lynching yet you've said nothing? I think everything you've said so far has been incredibly fluffly. You had the smiley read that was incredibly random and then your explanation for why you asked the reasoning for WoS vs Robik was bad as well. You stated that you asked for the reason on the WoS read because robik opened the exact same way. On April 03 2014 09:33 justanothertownie wrote:On April 03 2014 09:27 raynpelikoneet wrote:
Robik your read on Wave is wrong. Troll or serious? Then why do you prod him about it if you get where he's coming from. After that you go into traffic cop mode trying to settle the dispute between DI and Rob. You're my top scumread so far so I'd love to actually hear some content rather than all of this fluff. Seriously dude? You are contradicting yourself in the first part of your post... if I give a random read then that is more than most people here did. Maybe you should explain why my reasoning is bad instead of just throwing shit. I don't even know what you are talking about here. I never said WoS and Robik opened the same way?! You wanted to know the reasoning of the WoS read but never asked for the robik one. I never said that you read them the same way. It seemed that you were curious about the WoS read but then you didn't really care about why he read Rob town. Your only read has been that you liked the smiley thing so I wouldn't agree than "that is more than most people here did". I did ask because I did not follow the WoS read while I thought I understood the robik read. Like I already said. Maybe you should read what I say. I also never said that I like the smiley read I just know that it is a thing for them. Why is it scummy for me to only question one of rayns reads? Explain. It's suspicious because you could maybe be on a team with the person you're ignoring - or maybe trying to buddy them in some way. It's suspicious because it seems like you have information that the rest of us don't have, or at least I THINK that's what Killing is saying. I think you're town as fuck.
On April 03 2014 12:25 VisceraEyes wrote:
iamp, JAT and VE. Killing town too, maybe Wave, maybe sandroba. Maybe not sandroba. I'll lynch any lurker, including myself. Any questions? No? Good, everyone GO.
Town reads everywhere. Really confident about them, but also very questionable logic.
Tone is half-trollish, half-serious, and VE is appearing to play along with the thread.
Sound familiar? This is exactly what he did in this game. Play along wiht the townie points thing, take a very half-serious/trollish tone, and dole out some incomprensibly confident town-reads on MM/Damdred for incomprehensible reasons.
His confidence manifests itself in Carnival Cruise through his scum-reads.
An initial super-confident push on WaveOfShadow:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/407685-carnival-cruise-mafia?page=22#435
Doesn't really drop his case on Wave, then pushes Oats:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/407685-carnival-cruise-mafia?page=23#443
Then, all aboard the VAYNE TRAIN!
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/407685-carnival-cruise-mafia?page=44#876
He's super-confident about all of his early pushes, and by the end of Day 1, thinks all of these players are mafia. Isn't necessarily going after lurkers, and is just indiscriminately going on people he can push cases on.
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On September 24 2014 23:28 Damdred wrote:
Also hapa, VE really was like this in the fanfic game, he gave out town passes like a pedophile gives out candy and he scum hunted from that. He was totes town that game, and hes acting pretty close to it.
Ah this was what I was looking for.
It is true that VE gave out a bunch of town-reads in the fanfic game. However it makes sense in the context of his town play. I'll pull up the quote from my case, from Storm 2 mafia:
On July 08 2014 10:01 VisceraEyes wrote:
It's essentially that he felt the need to come in here and be seen interacting with people in the thread, but didn't say a single thing that could even be construed as an opinion. Everyone else who was active early on has continued to show signs of life, but mderg just made a few throwaway posts and then peaced out.
##Vote: mderg
If anyone's got anything better I'm all ears, but I'm not interested in lynching any super active players at least this phase. It's counterproductive. Active players will eventually give you more to go on.
Town VE wants to go after lurkers, not active players. As seen in Normal Mini Mafia LVI, he's actually a player that will turn down lynching a more active vet that he has clear suspicions on in favor of a less-active lurking player:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/458796-normal-mini-mafia-lvi?page=14#262
Now in the FanFic game, you'll notice that all of his "town-reads" are on the active players.
On September 15 2014 10:02 VisceraEyes wrote:
For the moment, I'm referring to everyone in the above conversation as the "Rock Stars" and they're all off limits for lynch today. Like all of them. Thank you for your understanding.
VE quoted this as if it described his play this game. It does not. VE literally states that everyone ACTIVE IN THE DISCUSSION of the fanfic game is not lynchable. This is 100% consistent with town VE's approach - ignore actives, lynch inactives.
In this game, it is the opposite.
Lynch actives, town-read inactives.
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EPT
