EPT[Important] New TL Mafia Behavior Rules - Page 29
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Remember to post respectfully, but feel free to voice how you actually feel about the change | ||
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ObviousOne
United States3704 Posts
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iVLosK!
Djibouti545 Posts
On June 15 2014 02:58 OdinOfPergo wrote: Not that I agree with what Aqua is saying entirely, but that statement is just wrong. What does it matter if people play here anymore? More specifically what if the conditions here (Which is obviously the case in this scenario) have dictated said persons choice in NOT playing here? I 100% don't think that person should just be ignored because they no longer play here because they have a problem with something here. They have an issue with something, thus they left, you should totes not ignore their opinion about it. Else what is stopping more people for leaving for the exact same reason? I am not going to elaborate much more other than ye, BH sums it up ok. The short story of the facts as I see; All these rules really do is lay that framework out over all games. Mods can choose to be super strict on it or not. Obviously TL mafia doesn't have a ton of mods running around threads and just auto banning people based on "their opinion". To be honest these last 10 pages seem pretty silly. All these changes seem to do in my mind is empower "less confidant" host to make request in the ban list thread post game. I honestly can't see what else this will change. If you aren't going to play any games here, why do you care what the games look like? It's easy to vote for a rule that you don't have to follow. People with no personal stake in the community shouldn't be making decisions for the community, simple as that. It's the same reason that seniors in the "student council" at my high school didn't get to vote on stuff. "You're not going to be here in 2 months, so why the fuck would we let you vote on how things are run here?" In this case it'd be "You're not going to play any games here, so why the fuck would we let you dictate the rules of our games?" | ||
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OdinOfPergo
United States840 Posts
On June 15 2014 03:43 iVLosK! wrote: If you aren't going to play any games here, why do you care what the games look like? It's easy to vote for a rule that you don't have to follow. People with no personal stake in the community shouldn't be making decisions for the community, simple as that. It's the same reason that seniors in the "student council" at my high school didn't get to vote on stuff. "You're not going to be here in 2 months, so why the fuck would we let you vote on how things are run here?" In this case it'd be "You're not going to play any games here, so why the fuck would we let you dictate the rules of our games?" No, what I am trying to say is; If you leave our forum for a specific reason, and 6 months (random #) that reason gets addressed, why is your input null? Just because you don't play here doesn't mean you don't play at all. I know, for a fact, many players that stop playing here, revert to other sites. So, lamest terms; if someone left this site for 'something', Why not seriously consider his/her opinions when it gets brought up? Even if it's months down the line, we should not just be "You opinion makes sense, but fuck that, cuz you haven't played a game on this site in the last 8 months." | ||
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Amiko
United States1725 Posts
It seems like this is an initiative to try to have more players- There has been much discussion among hosts, and foolishness, about how to address the declining number of players. Two of the issues that were identified were the massive amount of spam, and the relatively toxic atmosphere in games. The first has very few reasonable solutions, but the second has an easy fix. I was wondering, does it seem like the problem (compared to prior years) is: - fewer new players are staying? - fewer old players are staying? - fewer new players are joining? To me it really feels like each of those may reflect different problems and maybe different solutions. For me, I'd prefer if people were more polite (I don't feel like adversarial games require any impolite or rudeness). But for me, I think the tenor of other players is a lesser factor in whether I enjoy a game here. | ||
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Aquanim
Australia2849 Posts
But Aqua your opinion is irrelevant because you're not an active community member anymore You can take my opinion or leave it; I don't intend to ever again share a community with many of you, so whether you pay any attention to me or not doesn't really affect me. Your community dying is your problem. He's clearly chosen to leave my opinion. That doesn't mean everyone's obligated to. EDIT: I can't help but notice that nobody who disagrees with me has actually raised any counter-arguments to my point about the necessity for banlist endorsement of stricter rules. Fancy that. | ||
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gonzaw
Uruguay4911 Posts
So, you have some people behaving some way, and others disagreeing with said behaviour, while other disagree more. This in turn, creates new discussions about this behavior, but the behavior that was being questioned is actually being used in these same discussions. Because that behaviour is questionable, and in the discussion about said behaviour you are using said behaviour, then there is no possible way to solve the problem, because: -The behaviour is the problem -The place to try and solve this behavioral problem is in the discussions about said behaviour -Yet the behaviour is actually happening in those discussions, making the discussions themselves part of the problem, but you have no place to try and solve these new meta-behaviour problems, thus you can never wither down the "problem behavior" so you can never fully eradicate it. So, imagine the behavioral problem is that people post "fuck" in games. Now you go to this thread and discuss it. Some agree, some disagree. However, everybody starts throwing out "fuck" around. Now, the people against people saying "fuck" in games, will also be against people saying it in the discussion, or at least subconsciously, making them more aggressive and adversarial towards the other position. The aggressiveness increases until the discussion turns into a shitstorm of clusterfuckbrainorgy proportions. Recently I found that a lot of discussions turn out this way. No, not discussions, but at times even cultural-wide reactions and actions. It's kind of shitty to be honest. The solution? Be empathic, and chill So rayn, Aquanim, try having more empathy to each other instead of just fucking around. Then you can get to the core of the problem. Try and understand what the other dude is saying, try to understand why he is getting so fucking angry. Know that you getting fucking angry may also influence him getting fucking angry, so stop being angry and see if he is still shitting all over the place or not. Did you do it? Did you have an actual talk between each other? See? It wasn't that bad was it? Guess what? This is also the solution to this very problem you guys are discussing about. If all players try to be more empathic towards others when playing mafia games, none of this would even happen. However, for us/you/whatever to get there in the first place, you need to get there in these kind of environments (debates,etc ). If the people in here are having shitstorms and shitting around, why should players in mafia games feel like they should act otherwise? On June 15 2014 06:45 Amiko wrote: I don't have much of an opinion on the rule change but I wanted to ask a question- It seems like this is an initiative to try to have more players- I was wondering, does it seem like the problem (compared to prior years) is: - fewer new players are staying? - fewer old players are staying? - fewer new players are joining? To me it really feels like each of those may reflect different problems and maybe different solutions. For me, I'd prefer if people were more polite (I don't feel like adversarial games require any impolite or rudeness). But for me, I think the tenor of other players is a lesser factor in whether I enjoy a game here. I think after I stopped playing, all the sexy smart people stopped playing because they couldn't play with me anymore. Must be the only explanation of course. | ||
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gonzaw
Uruguay4911 Posts
FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK lolSpain FUCK FUCK FUCK @WorldCup | ||
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DarthPunk
Australia10855 Posts
On June 15 2014 13:39 gonzaw wrote: Also: FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK lolSpain FUCK FUCK FUCK @WorldCup I mean, did you expect Uruguay to do much without Suarez? | ||
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gonzaw
Uruguay4911 Posts
Still, this WC is like the best ever. Like 10 games and not a single draw | ||
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DarthPunk
Australia10855 Posts
On June 15 2014 15:04 gonzaw wrote: Nah, I knew this was coming the moment everybody was acting all smug about it over here already "knowing" we'd beat Costa Rica by like a bajillion goals or something. Our team is like exactly the same one from 2010, obviously we'd get slugish and slow and do shit. Still, this WC is like the best ever. Like 10 games and not a single draw At least your team doesn't suck as hard as our team. Although I am ethnically dutch so at least I have a second team to follow. | ||
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VayneAuthority
United States8983 Posts
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DarthPunk
Australia10855 Posts
On June 15 2014 15:14 VayneAuthority wrote: you have cahill, guy is a monster one of my fav players He is old as dirt though. | ||
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gonzaw
Uruguay4911 Posts
It would be great to have Cristiano Ronaldo lynched on D1, and Messi vig shotted on N1 | ||
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Holyflare
United Kingdom30774 Posts
On June 15 2014 15:36 gonzaw wrote: Why didn't you guys create a "World Cup Mafia" game? It would be great to have Cristiano Ronaldo lynched on D1, and Messi vig shotted on N1 Yes please. Red cards for lynches, injuries for nk's. Cop could be a referee (preferably not one from brazil match lololol), vig could be a slide tackling mofo! Kick off start of the game, night time could be an elongated foul where a player rolls around and thus injuries happen after the foul and red cards to make the foul. This should be done. | ||
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raynpelikoneet
Finland43268 Posts
On June 15 2014 13:33 gonzaw wrote: [...] So rayn, Aquanim, try having more empathy to each other instead of just fucking around. Then you can get to the core of the problem. Try and understand what the other dude is saying, try to understand why he is getting so fucking angry. Know that you getting fucking angry may also influence him getting fucking angry, so stop being angry and see if he is still shitting all over the place or not. Did you do it? Did you have an actual talk between each other? See? It wasn't that bad was it? [...] Yes i did. We certainly have a different opinion of what's right and what's wrong. Here are some discussions we have had, on three different matters: + Show Spoiler + (1) The Blazinghand incident from LXIV - where he posted his mason logs after being told not to do so by the hosts: raynpelikoneet 03-07-2014 02:39 AM ET (US) lol whatever. I also remember you telling i did something wrong when Blazinghand broke the rules in LXIV so maybe it's better i don't sign up for your games because that was delusional. Aquanim 03-07-2014 02:55 AM ET (US) /m168 that thing with Blazinghand wasn't that you did anything against the rules, just that your actions put Blazinghand in a position where he had to either break the rules or get policy lynched. raynpelikoneet 03-07-2014 03:22 AM ET (US) That is completely not true. As mafia, if you have enough time, you can fake the logs to match your actions in thread and it becomes harder to figure out if they are legit or not. I pressuresd BH to give the logs to confirmed town marv immediately. Instead of doing so BH decided to fuck around for 5 hours and not give the logs to marv. When my thought that BH is mafia because he needs time to fake the logs (as there is no reason to refuse to give them) gathered support BH went "shit i did an anti-town thing and now it's too late to prove my towniness with this so hey, i'll intentionally break the rules and modconfirm my mason group as town". That has ABSOLUTELY nothing to do with me and i DEFINITELY didn't put BH in that position, he did it himself. Aquanim 03-07-2014 03:34 AM ET (US) I don't remember and I'm not interested in the details of whatever happened in LXIV. Irrelevant here anyway. (2) geript getting modkilled in Cultured game: raynpelikoneet 03-06-2014 09:42 PM ET (US) None of the things geript said was a threat. Aquanim 03-06-2014 09:52 PM ET (US) Care to explain that? Aquanim 03-06-2014 09:53 PM ET (US) 'cos saying that you will policy lynch/shoot someone in any game you meet them after this one sounds a lot like a threat to me. raynpelikoneet 03-07-2014 01:54 AM ET (US) Okay so you are arguing that people thinking someone is bad as town and wanting to enforce a policy that they should be lynched is against the rules. You should probably modkil la lot of people. What about those guys in this game who refuse to lynch the mafia because of policy? raynpelikoneet 03-07-2014 01:58 AM ET (US) But Toad geript isn't insulting anyone, he is saying Holyflare is playing so badly he can't believe he is town. Which ironically is correct. So Aquanim modkilled geript for being right and expressing that in a frustrated way (which again is not a threat). Aquanim 03-07-2014 02:03 AM ET (US) Not at all. If somebody had come into this game and said "I think we should lynch so-and-so because their town game is so bad", that's not against my rule on threats - though I might well be unimpressed, and might not welcome them to play next time. However, somebody saying that they will policy lynch X in future games, based on their play in this game, is against my rules. Basically, there's two options: 1) Geript is saying this to try to make Holyflare behave differently, which is an unreasonable threat based on out-of-game consequences and is thus against my rules. 2) Geript is saying this for no purpose at all. Being an asshole for no reason is against my rules. * And as for Geript saying that he's willing to abuse his position as a host to satisfy his personal disagreements with Holyflare... well I have no idea why you think that is in any way acceptable. raynpelikoneet 03-07-2014 02:42 AM ET (US) "And as for Geript saying that he's willing to abuse his position as a host to satisfy his personal disagreements with Holyflare... well I have no idea why you think that is in any way acceptable. " BECAUS HOLYFLARE IS NOT IN THAT GAME SO GERIPT CAN'T POSSIBLY ABUSE HIS POSITION AS A HOST!?!?! (2) gumshoe very clearly personally insulting me in Cultured game: raynpelikoneet 03-07-2014 03:22 AM ET (US) For the record this post: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/4440...-mafia?page=55#1093 ..is far worse than anything anyone else has said in the game. Now i don't give a fuck about personal attacks against me because in my opinion if you can't deal with being called bad in a mafia game then you should be playing tic-tac-toe where you can't be bad unless you actullay are really dumb instead of mafia. 03-07-2014 03:34 AM ET (US) Gumshoe's post was indeed insulting and whatever towards you but he was making a valid point about the current game (namely, that you were wrong about Mocsta and that your massive ego was blinding you to that). * Now my problem is not, and has never been, the modkill on geript. I strongly disagree with the "threat" part of the decision, but if that's Aquanim's decision fine. What i did, and do, have a problem with is that Aquanim in his game was enforcing STRICT BEHAVIOURAL RULES. However he let gumshoe slip by for no reason but modkilled geript. Now it's known for everyone that Aquanim does not like me and geript - i don't have a problem with that. But look at the bolded parts inside the spoilers: I ask you all this; Look at the following spoilers and compare it to this, which is the exchange between me and gumshoe: + Show Spoiler + On February 27 2014 11:59 gumshoe wrote: Fuck you man, I dont wanna hear shit from you, your so fucking blind it scares me, how the fuck can you believe that Moc is scum after the game that you just hydrad with him!? The two play styles are totally different. You should be the one defending him honestly, yet your so caught up in your own massive ego that even when you realize how scummy suki is, you still wont give up on Moc, cause that would mean you were wrong wouldnt it? And we cant have that now can we, cause thats never happened before right? On February 27 2014 12:04 raynpelikoneet wrote: Take a break gumshoe. Now again, look at what Aquanim said about geript's behaviour. Here, i'll quote it to you: 1) Geript is saying this to try to make Holyflare behave differently, which is an unreasonable threat based on out-of-game consequences and is thus against my rules. 2) Geript is saying this for no purpose at all. Being an asshole for no reason is against my rules. Now if compare gumshoe's actions to this.
So, what does this all have to do with this thread? This thread is about hosts enforcing stricter behavioural rules because people have felt unpleasant to play in games here and therefore will not play. I do not think Aquanim is qualified to say anything to this matter because he treats people differently based on whather or not he likes them. gumshoe got away with shit he should not have gotten away with as per Aquanim's rules. Just because Aquanim thinks i am an egoistic dick does not mean in HIS opinion anyone can act as a dick towards me, as per his rules. gumshoe was a dick, so was geript. One of them got modkilled without a warnig, the other one didn't. That's bullshit and shows that Aquanim as a host favours some people over others. Now THIS is what i think is wrong here on TL Mafia and not so the "toxic atmospheres". People favour certain people over others for whatever reasons. Some people get away with same shit others get punished for. This is not the only instance and it seems like noone gives a fuck about this. For the people arguing pro-change: I agree with you guys, as i have said before. If there are people who quit/don't wanna join games because of toxic atmosphere something needs to change. Apparently Foolishness (i think?) has recieved PM's from people regarding this. My questions, however, are these: 1) What are those instances that should have been modkilled and were not based on the rule change? Could someone show some examples, because i have seen none and i really don't know what people are arguing for here. Please, could someone show me what would be modkillable after change that was not before? Even one example.. People are just arguing about generally, "people should be nicer yadda yadda" without telling what sort of posts are the actual problem. 2) If this is, and has been the problem, why has noone who has felt so brought the issue up after relevant game in the banlist thread? That's what the fucking thread is about - to discuss incorrect behaviour and act properly and ensure people get banned for their rule violations. Why are people just whining in PM's and complaining there? Like are you scared you get shut down? Well if you don't voice your opinion you will not be heard, that's for sure. So get out of your cave and do something if you think something is wrong. Right now this thread is not being helpful because the only people who have actually shown some examples of anything are me, Aquanim and Blazinghand. I definitely do not agree with Aquanim but at least i respect him for being straighforward and telling what's wrong in his opinion. | ||
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Aquanim
Australia2849 Posts
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raynpelikoneet
Finland43268 Posts
Well then you clearly have nothing to say on this topic. It's funny that you are eager to point out names here but you apparently can't actually back up what you say. Not liking someone is one thing but giving shit to them without telling why is another one and i hate people who do that. If you have something to say be a man and back it up properly. | ||
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Aquanim
Australia2849 Posts
That aside, I don't see the point in explaining to you exactly why I think you are an unpleasant person. You're never going to agree with me, and anyone else who would agree with me if I explained it already does. tl;dr No, I don't intend to help you derail this thread any further. And to that end: I've said some things I left unsaid when I last left, and I've expressed my support for a notion I felt was worth supporting. I don't think my continued presence here is doing anyone any good, except for those who benefit from using arguments with me to spam this thread and stop anything useful from being done. As such... bye. + Show Spoiler + I don't doubt someone will twist my words and pretend I said something I didn't say for the purposes of advancing their own agenda... but that would happen no matter when I decided enough was enough. So whatever. | ||
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justanothertownie
16317 Posts
On June 15 2014 20:39 Aquanim wrote: That aside, I don't see the point in explaining to you exactly why I think you are an unpleasant person. You're never going to agree with me, and anyone else who would agree with me if I explained it already does. tl;dr No, I don't intend to help you derail this thread any further. Rayn is at the moment the only person in here actively trying to figure out what's the problem/how to solve it. He is certainly not derailing the thread. And providing examples of bad behaviour in games has nothing to do with explaining why he is an unpleasant person to you (or with derailing). Literally nothing. Just because you don't like someone that does not mean they are bm or that they were not punished accordingly for being bm which is the point of this thread. | ||
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raynpelikoneet
Finland43268 Posts
On June 15 2014 20:39 Aquanim wrote: That's not what I said. I said I won't debate my decisions in Cultured Mini Mafia with you. And i used that game as an example for what i think is wrong here. I know you will not agree with me but that was not directed to you but for everyone else. I am not asking you to contribute to that matter because i already know your answer. I am asking you to contribute to what YOU think is the problem. Is it too much asked that you back up your statements with examples? I won't take offence, hell i have even said "use me as an example if there is something you think can be used as an example from me". Until you do so i don't know why you bash certain people. I wan't to understand what in YOUR opinion is the problem, what sort of behaviour YOU think is toxic. Until you point out something there is nothing you can contribute towards anyone in this thread and there is nothing to gain to you. Right now you are just saying you don't like some people and they are toxic. Fine, but noone knows what in your opinion we should do differently. "Be nicer" is not a real answer because mafia games are not for that. You are supposed to find who is talking shit and who is not. If i have ever crossed the line and not get punished for it point out where and then we can discuss if people think you are right or not. Man, why is this so hard to understand? | ||
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