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Koshi
Belgium38797 Posts
"In resistance it is not smart for scum to put (light) pressure on each other for no reason, there are no flips and double bussing each other just make it less likely either will be picked if 3 or 4 townies need to be send." Am I right about this? It somewhat sounds right? | ||
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Koshi
Belgium38797 Posts
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[UoN]Sentinel
United States11320 Posts
On December 31 2013 18:22 Koshi wrote: Anybody here? For some quick chatter? Question is: The "scumslip" from Cora, what did you think when you read that? I am currently off the idea that Cora is scum. I just want to know what you thought when you read it, and don't relate it to Cora his alignment. Just the sentence on itself: Stop making a big deal about it. If you don't think he's scum, why are you even bringing it up? If we're going to have discussion it's going to be about something that matters. On December 31 2013 21:42 Koshi wrote: What about this sentiment: "In resistance it is not smart for scum to put (light) pressure on each other for no reason, there are no flips and double bussing each other just make it less likely either will be picked if 3 or 4 townies need to be send." Am I right about this? It somewhat sounds right? Not completely. If one is trusted more than the other, then it helps one become even more towny at the expense of the other. | ||
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Koshi
Belgium38797 Posts
On December 31 2013 22:23 [UoN]Sentinel wrote: Stop making a big deal about it. If you don't think he's scum, why are you even bringing it up? If we're going to have discussion it's going to be about something that matters. Not completely. If one is trusted more than the other, then it helps one become even more towny at the expense of the other. 1) I just want people their opinion so I can read them. 2) But the problem is that we select townies, so let's say 2 scummers bus each other with good arguments day 1. Town will simply not pick them both, the mission will succeed and both scummers get 0 towncred. | ||
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[UoN]Sentinel
United States11320 Posts
On December 31 2013 23:04 Koshi wrote: 1) I just want people their opinion so I can read them. Is my opinion going to somehow factor into your magic case on me then? 2) But the problem is that we select townies, so let's say 2 scummers bus each other with good arguments day 1. Town will simply not pick them both, the mission will succeed and both scummers get 0 towncred.[/QUOTE] We don't know if they're townies though. If we think one of them is a townie and he gets into a fight with an alleged scum, and they're both actually scum, the townie gets more towncred for justifying himself and putting pressure on the scummer. | ||
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[UoN]Sentinel
United States11320 Posts
On December 31 2013 23:04 Koshi wrote: 1) I just want people their opinion so I can read them. Is my opinion going to somehow factor into your magic case on me then? 2) But the problem is that we select townies, so let's say 2 scummers bus each other with good arguments day 1. Town will simply not pick them both, the mission will succeed and both scummers get 0 towncred. We don't know if they're townies though. If we think one of them is a townie and he gets into a fight with an alleged scum, and they're both actually scum, the townie gets more towncred for justifying himself and putting pressure on the scummer. | ||
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Koshi
Belgium38797 Posts
On December 31 2013 23:15 [UoN]Sentinel wrote: Is my opinion going to somehow factor into your magic case on me then? We don't know if they're townies though. If we think one of them is a townie and he gets into a fight with an alleged scum, and they're both actually scum, the townie gets more towncred for justifying himself and putting pressure on the scummer. 1. Glad you expect my case to be magic! 2. The point is that we will never get to the phase where the townie looking scummer will get credit for bussing the scummy looking scummer because both will not get picked for early missions and best case scenario the townie looking scummer will get picked D3 or D4 but it might be too late then. | ||
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Koshi
Belgium38797 Posts
Do you think it is impossible you and VE are in the same scumteam? Any proof you can find in the thread? | ||
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[UoN]Sentinel
United States11320 Posts
On December 31 2013 23:20 Koshi wrote: 1. Glad you expect my case to be magic! 2. The point is that we will never get to the phase where the townie looking scummer will get credit for bussing the scummy looking scummer because both will not get picked for early missions and best case scenario the townie looking scummer will get picked D3 or D4 but it might be too late then. If enough people think the townie looking scummer is scum, then he's not townie looking. | ||
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[UoN]Sentinel
United States11320 Posts
On December 31 2013 23:21 Koshi wrote: btw, I think you might have the biggest filter in the game (except probably rayn, didn't check that yet) so I was totes wrong at the start. One of the many things I was totes wrong about. I'm second after him, last time I checked. Never thought I'd ever play a game where my filter size would be second only to rayn's, Christmas is magic... Do you think it is impossible you and VE are in the same scumteam? Any proof you can find in the thread? What a nice loaded question. If you mean to ask me if it's possible VE is scum, the two things are a) picking a team without discussing it, never mind the amount of time he actually waited, and b) his reads don't match with his votes, as Adam pointed out. His justification makes sense but it still does not 100% explain why he wouldn't just yayvote since none of his scumteam was on there. | ||
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VisceraEyes
United States21170 Posts
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[UoN]Sentinel
United States11320 Posts
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Koshi
Belgium38797 Posts
Out of VE his first 5 post I think only this one is interesting, the other 4 are just filler posts: On December 27 2013 12:15 VisceraEyes wrote: This is my feeling as well. I will go further to say that it's not inherently scummy about refusing to up-vote a team that doesn't include one's self, but it's strictly speaking closed minded and overly cautious play. rayn says X, Sentinel agrees with X and gives an example, VE agrees with X and adds that doing the opposite is also fine. I don't know what to make of this post. But it's interesting how VE formulates his post. Why not just say. "Guys, it is also not scummy to refuse to upvote a team that doesn't include yourself." I think that would have been better than just seemingly +1 the idea but then add the opposite as well. Bit strange imo. On December 29 2013 00:30 VisceraEyes wrote: Well if the guy who picked the team isn't confident, why should I be? I don't even have to read to nay-vote the team. XD I'm reading anyway, you rascals. This post is also quite strange. VE claims to have not read anything except the fact that Adam is not sure about sending his own team? But I do not get where VE gets this idea. Could you explain VE? The only think I find in Adams filter is this: On December 28 2013 10:51 Adam4167 wrote: Do I have to yay my own team? seems rather redundant Which indicates Adam simply doesn't know if he has to yay-vote and thinks he already has yayvoted by sending his team.To me this post looks like VE already setting up his nay vote. There already were 3 yayvotes and most likely Adam would be 4th so nayvoting would look better than be the 5th yayvote in case there was a scummer on that team. I know this looks like I am already making connections with Adam but my point is also valid if rayn is scum (I got Hopeless as 100% town, I will explain that in another post if needed). You have to know that Koshi, Sentinel and Hopeless already voted yes, so in the case 1 out of Adam/rayn is scum VE is gambling on the fact that both will yay vote the team. One will yay vote because he is on the team as town, the other one will yay vote because he is scum. VE will look good when later the mission fails or at least he won't look bad. Sadly for him both Adam and rayn voted no while rayn his no vote makes him town imo, Adam his nay vote looks more like a "fuck what do I do" nay vote. On December 29 2013 02:53 VisceraEyes wrote: Adam's reasoning is pretty generic for his picks, which isn't bad per se, but he himself is kinda a null read for me and I'd feel comfortable with someone like myself or Corazon on the team. Maybe a little Sentinel. But mostly just less Adam. ##Vote: Nay The nayvote + reasons. I already pointed out that VE is not looking at the bigger picture with this nay vote. In this vote he points out that both Adam is a null read and the biggest problem in the suggested team. This means that Hopeless and rayn are looking fine to VE. Added in his nayvote VE states that Cora and Sentinel also look pretty damn good. The sum of this means people that are town for VE are: Hopeless, rayn, Cora, Sentinel and himself. That's 5 guys town, 1 null and the 3 remaining guys must be the scummers? If this is the case, would a good play not be wait till both Grack and CR also voted? To see what they did? Why does VE has to "rush" his vote in? My explanation is that VE wanted to look good when the team passed (it looked like it would) and he had his nayvote on a critical moment for some towncred. Look, I know I am the last to be very critical of what is good play. But I hope you see where I am going with this. Also, we all know Koshi is not VE. Koshi is Koshi. VE is VE though. On December 30 2013 00:28 VisceraEyes wrote: I'm choosing Hopeless, rayn and myself for the next team. VE already explained himself why he eventually didn't do it and I am ok with that explanation. He might have considered the same problem as Adam could have had. What happens when the mission fails and you picked both rayn and Hopeless? You either sabotage and outplay both of them and shift blame to them (hard to do) or you succeed but might have the problem that both rayn and Hopeless get more towncred than yourself and you fall out Mission 2 (less likely for VE) For this reason it is quite convenient I asked VE to give a townread on rayn. I did that knowing that if VE sends rayn + Hopeless and the mission fails then VE kinda is in a thougher spot because he already gave a townread on rayn. Here is the answer from VE + Show Spoiler + On December 30 2013 00:36 VisceraEyes wrote: I really liked this post by Cora. Maybe I'll switch out someone FOR Cora. :/ On December 30 2013 01:11 VisceraEyes wrote: Eeehhhh....I think I'd rather just send Cora instead. Thx though Koshi. <3 There is none... Why can't VE just give me a good quality post why rayn is town? Oh well. On December 30 2013 01:21 VisceraEyes wrote: I actually opted to send Sentinel and Cora in addition to myself. Sentinel keeps saying things I agree with and Cora has also seemed very town since the beginning. I feel most comfortable with this team at present. + Show Spoiler + On December 30 2013 01:25 VisceraEyes wrote: Well that would be about the most retarded thing ever. 1) The scumteam cannot communicate with each other. 2) The scums on missions have to choose whether they will sabotage or not without consulting their scum partners Because 1 and 2 are both true it is very VERY unlikely that I, as scum knowing who my partners would be, would send the entire team on D1. If you think I'm scum, you pretty much have to assume that at least one of Sent/Cora is town. Interesting picks from VE at first glance. VE already gave his reasoning for why he picked both Cora and Sentinel and not Hopeless and rayn. I can agree with that. But if you want my totally biased complot theory: + Show Spoiler + 1) Look at how VE proposes his team. When I read that I get the feeling that VE puts his foot down on Sentinel being town "All Sentinel posts were exactly what I was thinking" and the reasoning is way more open "Cora looked somewhat townie". VE probably knew Cora was going to get a shitton attention and it might go wrong there. I don't know if both Cora and I were already at each other thoaths there but it is possible. This selection might be some oil on the fire. 2) Look at the spoiler. Sentinel was the guy who in the start said that the first picked spy in case of multiple spies should sabotage, VE knows this and can trust Sentinel to not fuck up. Now, I do not really know why VE would pick a second scummer with him though. VE, Cora and rayn would probably have made the mission. And between those 3 I don't know if VE wouldn't be able to outbest Cora/rayn lategame. And then in between the other two scummers might be able to do magic. So let's put the Sentinel and VE both scummers theory in the fridge for a while, or at least till I read Sentinel is filter again. Therefore this part was also spoilered. On December 31 2013 12:32 VisceraEyes wrote: I'm going to be completely honest here guys. The reason I nay-voted Adam's team was because three people instantly yay'd it and that bothered me so I nay-voted. I hadn't filtered a single one of them when I voted. It was a response to the present votes, period. Discuss. I want to end with this. A big part of my case here was the nayvote from VE. Look what he writes here now. Isn't this strange? The yay voters were Hopeless, Koshi and Sentinel. Hopeless has been a townread for VE the entire game till very recently. (remember that VE had a problem with Adam on the mission team, Adam was null btw) Koshi I can totally understand you had a problem with. Well I don't really really understand it but because everybody has a problem with my early play I guess some stuff was wrong. Maybe everything. Sentinel was a townread from VE the entire game. Stated by VE multiple times. Something just doesn't add up with VE his reads the entire game. I do point at the reason for why he nayvoted, I do point at this, I do point at the following: On December 30 2013 10:29 Adam4167 wrote: VE, you seem to have given your thoughts on everyone else in this game one way or another, yet for me its 'null' early on D1 with a downvote, and apparently I'm not in your theorized scum team. Basically, what I want to know is, what is your current read on me? What are your thoughts on me passing my own team? If your scum team is correct, then why did both Koshi and Chairman Ray vote yay yesterday? Pretty spot on the painful point of VE his play so far. VE reply: On December 30 2013 14:49 VisceraEyes wrote: MAYBE town? Your filter left me hanging yesterday when I looked, but your posting around deadline time was decent enough I guess. But your last question IS a good one. I'm not super sold on Grack scum so it's possible I'm wrong and you're scum. <3 And this is why I am asking the past hours if scum would hard buss each other. Or hard pressure. You get into these situations that get hard to solve and look how VE still says Adam is "maybe town". It would be so idiotic that both me and CR would yay vote the first team, especially how we were looking. If that first team passes without a scum on board it would take ages before Grack, CR or Koshi would get a spot. It would ONLY make sense if Adam, rayn or Hopeless is scum. Now look at he latest messages of VE: Adam still pretty null or even town. VE speaks of Adam was scum. (passed tense, the feeling should be stronger now god damnit!): On December 31 2013 05:13 VisceraEyes wrote: And no, I thought Adam was scum when I nay-voted the team. Or at least, I was explicit in saying Adam was the reason I was nay-voting. On December 31 2013 05:17 VisceraEyes wrote: No, because think about it: to him, there was a lot of opposition. And with a final vote, if the team fails, Adam looks the worst right? Adam's posting looked better at the end of the day, THAT is what changed my opinion on him. Him nay-voting could mean anything, whether it's to give us more discussion time (which is what it appears to be) or to follow perceived town sentiment (which is what I guess it would have been if he's scum). There is no way that both me and CR vote yay on that mission if there isn't 1 scum on it. There has to be 1 scum if we are scum. So because VE already knows he will have to keep pressuring Adam if he wants to keep up both CR and me are scum I again point to this: On December 31 2013 12:32 VisceraEyes wrote: I'm going to be completely honest here guys. The reason I nay-voted Adam's team was because three people instantly yay'd it and that bothered me so I nay-voted. I hadn't filtered a single one of them when I voted. It was a response to the present votes, period. Discuss. ^ VE tries to get out of the sticky situation and "admits" he wasn't reading the game and him nayvoting wasn't because Adam is scum, it was because the yayvotes. But I explained already why the yayvotes from both Hopeless and Sentinel should NOT have caused the rushed nay-vote. This is it for now. Making cases is hard work. | ||
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Koshi
Belgium38797 Posts
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VisceraEyes
United States21170 Posts
I want to know why you think I'm scum. Try harder. | ||
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Koshi
Belgium38797 Posts
Tell me again why you nayvoted. Your latest story is because of the 3 yayvotes. But those 3 included Sentinel and Hopeless. Big townreads of yourself, at least back then. Also explain the 2 lines reasoning you added while nayvoting. Was that total bullshit then? | ||
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Corazon
United States3230 Posts
Yeah it's pretty bad townplay to not talk to you directly, but the vibe I got off of your first few posts were that you weren't going to take this game seriously. I actually do like the effort you put into the case, although I really don't think it proves that VE is scum. Perhaps I'm biased by my own read of him. I haven't been scum in any game besides Titanic I and NMM 33. Not much to base my scum play off I guess, sorry =( Instead of telling us who you aren't going to pick, I would like it if you could talk about who you are considering, please. | ||
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Koshi
Belgium38797 Posts
Why I think Hopeless is pretty certain town is that he is putting his neck out to call me town which is only useful as scum to gain my vote of confidence because I am actually town. But if he at the same time is making enemies with you that isn't really helping his status forward. Which this game actually comes down to, you want to be looked as town by as many people as possible. Also somewhere I find his play making sense the entire way through. I don't get scumvibes at all from rayn atm. I have read his entire filter twice now and it just looks clean. The way he unvoted didn't make any sense to me as scum. VE just downvoted the team because Adam was in it, there is no reason for scumRayn to downvote the team as well if he is the scummer and Adam isn't. I also don't see a world in which both Adam and rayn are scum. There is 1 hard defense from rayn for Adam but I think that was legitimately a really good post by Adam. I kinda got Adam as scum right now just because he downvoted his own team for strange reasons. I got 1 scummer in the first team because VE downvoted the team at that point in the game (when everything pointed towards the first team going through) but without any real attempt to stop the team from going through. This is not based on my scumread of Adam, it could be either Adam/rayn/Hopeless that is the scummer. Last one is up for grabs. I think it is Sentinel but I might be wrong. I don't think so but that's how I am. So for me anybody from this pool: Koshi, rayn, Cora, Hopeless, Grack is allowed to go on the mission. Like I said before there is no real pressure on my team because after me we got Grack and even that is not all or nothing because we all got Hopeless as town after that. CR is a townread (or should I say null) for me because he is actually spilling good information into this thread. It might be totally unrelevant to this game but I find it useful. But I would never send him on Mission 1 simply because he hasn't given us anything about another player in this game. Don't think he even touched somebody. CR did promise us the everything and then some on Day 2 though, there he can go to town or scum for me. A quite permanent read that will be. There are 0 excuses for CR on Day 2. But I got VE and Adam as scum like I said. And then CR can be 3rd scum who's gameplan was to just wait out and seemingly auto-yay all teams on Day 1. Then crank it up and play deceptive on day 2 who is in his eyes the most important day for scum anyway. We all know CR is quite the impressive scumplayer from Thug Life Mafia in which nobody got him as scum till he decided to quite impressively "fakeclaim" scum. | ||
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Koshi
Belgium38797 Posts
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Corazon
United States3230 Posts
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