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Blazinghand
United States25560 Posts
On December 17 2013 09:29 GMarshal wrote:
I don't agree with removing the banlist, because as mig said, its crucial for dealing with inactives. I also don't thin TL higher ups would be amenable to a council essentially controlling how tl bans are meted out.
The simplest solution then imo is to just ban people when they get modkilled for behavior, and ban them when the game ends if they get warned for behavior. You will have the last say in whether or not the warning or modkill was justified, and if people see bad behavior, they could also bring that to your attention-- but the general rule should be "if the host has to warn you or modkill you, expect a temp ban when the game ends, or on the spot if you were modkilled" would go a long way imo.
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There are also the people that constantly troll other players who don't do enough to get the hosts attention but do enough to get the person being trolled wanting to use the report button because he doesn't feel it is being handled correctly by the hosts.
We need a system to get rid of people who don't actually play the game and only troll, yet don't get any punishment because they are considered "veterans" by everyone else and immune to all of the rules.
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Blazinghand
United States25560 Posts
On December 17 2013 09:35 Corazon wrote:
There are also the people that constantly troll other players who don't do enough to get the hosts attention but do enough to get the person being trolled wanting to use the report button because he doesn't feel it is being handled correctly by the hosts.
We need a system to get rid of people who don't actually play the game and only troll, yet don't get any punishment because they are considered "veterans" by everyone else and immune to all of the rules.
You're talking about something beyond just a temp ban, here, right? I recommend for situations like that that we use a "wisdom of the crowds" style rule that GM uses in his setups. Here's what he used most recently:
On November 16 2013 02:48 GMarshal wrote:
Special Signup rule: Wisdom of the Crowds: If you do not wish to play with a player for any reason, PM me, if I receive enough votes against a player (five or more) then he or she will not be allowed to play in this game. Your vote against a player will be held in the strictest confidence. You *must* be signed up to vote against someone.
This way, if there's a player who everyone hates but people are afraid to speak up about, there is a confidential way to not have to play with him! IMO Wisdom of the Crowds should become a standard rule for non-invite games.
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On December 17 2013 09:41 Blazinghand wrote:Show nested quote +On December 17 2013 09:35 Corazon wrote:
There are also the people that constantly troll other players who don't do enough to get the hosts attention but do enough to get the person being trolled wanting to use the report button because he doesn't feel it is being handled correctly by the hosts.
We need a system to get rid of people who don't actually play the game and only troll, yet don't get any punishment because they are considered "veterans" by everyone else and immune to all of the rules. You're talking about something beyond just a temp ban, here, right? I recommend for situations like that that we use a "wisdom of the crowds" style rule that GM uses in his setups. Here's what he used most recently: Show nested quote +On November 16 2013 02:48 GMarshal wrote:
Special Signup rule: Wisdom of the Crowds: If you do not wish to play with a player for any reason, PM me, if I receive enough votes against a player (five or more) then he or she will not be allowed to play in this game. Your vote against a player will be held in the strictest confidence. You *must* be signed up to vote against someone.
This way, if there's a player who everyone hates but people are afraid to speak up about, there is a confidential way to not have to play with him! IMO Wisdom of the Crowds should become a standard rule for non-invite games.
Yes I agree with this. However, only GM does that.
However, there are also people who troll outside of games or on PMs/non-game threads and can't get punished because it isn't a game. I just report those posts and nothing gets done about them.
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Blazinghand
United States25560 Posts
On December 17 2013 09:43 Corazon wrote:Show nested quote +On December 17 2013 09:41 Blazinghand wrote:On December 17 2013 09:35 Corazon wrote:
There are also the people that constantly troll other players who don't do enough to get the hosts attention but do enough to get the person being trolled wanting to use the report button because he doesn't feel it is being handled correctly by the hosts.
We need a system to get rid of people who don't actually play the game and only troll, yet don't get any punishment because they are considered "veterans" by everyone else and immune to all of the rules. You're talking about something beyond just a temp ban, here, right? I recommend for situations like that that we use a "wisdom of the crowds" style rule that GM uses in his setups. Here's what he used most recently: On November 16 2013 02:48 GMarshal wrote:
Special Signup rule: Wisdom of the Crowds: If you do not wish to play with a player for any reason, PM me, if I receive enough votes against a player (five or more) then he or she will not be allowed to play in this game. Your vote against a player will be held in the strictest confidence. You *must* be signed up to vote against someone.
This way, if there's a player who everyone hates but people are afraid to speak up about, there is a confidential way to not have to play with him! IMO Wisdom of the Crowds should become a standard rule for non-invite games. Yes I agree with this. However, only GM does that. However, there are also people who troll outside of games or on PMs/non-game threads and can't get punished because it isn't a game. I just report those posts and nothing gets done about them.
It only being GM who uses that rule is a problem, you're right-- so, let's roll Wisdom of the Crowds into our new banlist policy revamp. I personally promise that regardless of what gets chosen I'll include Wisdom of the Crowds in all games I host from now on anyways.
Re: reporting posts in non-game threads, I recommend you PM GM instead of reporting them. I think the TL Mods mostly leave reports coming in from TL Mafia forum alone since they are somewhat aware of our internal rules. PM GM with quote, link, and reason.
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I feel like if I PM GM anymore he's going to hate me forever.
I'll have a lot of stuff to pm him with after a certain game is over.
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Blazinghand
United States25560 Posts
Hm, I see what you're saying, but the alternative which is hitting the Report button is less likely to get good results. That being said I have found GM to be nothing but patient, reasonable, and highly sexy (wink wink) in my interactions with him and I'm sure he'll hear you out if you notice legitimate violations of TL Forum guidelines in a non-game thread.
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United States22154 Posts
On December 17 2013 09:47 Corazon wrote:
I feel like if I PM GM anymore he's going to hate me forever.
I'll have a lot of stuff to pm him with after a certain game is over.
My inbox feels lonely if I have less than 20 pms in the morning anyway, so go for it :-P
EDIT: And if ignore you, it means I read your pm, intended to reply and got sidetracked and forgot, which happens, oftenish.
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I am really saddened by the fact that this is becoming a problem
I believe TL is a place built on heavy moderation, and as users of the site we should agree with this policy. This whole "this forum is a special place for flame" doesn't make sense to me. People need to begin to understand their behavior in a mafia game should have consequences for outside of the game. At the same time, I think we should reward good sportsmanship. Possibly invite only games, having hosts put tags behind players on the signup sheet for "friendly play" ect.
Although disruptive a ban may be, flame is even more disruptive to a game.
On December 17 2013 09:15 Crossfire99 wrote:
Also, I was thinking of having a rule where aside from the insults in general, if I were to ask a player the purpose of a post, they better have an answer. Like how does that post further your agenda to achieve your win condition (again excluding the excessive personal attacks caveat). If someone cannot answer that question then again a warn/modkill is in order.
I find it problematical when people consider insults as necessary to further their win condition, or bait to attempt to further their win condition. A lot of us play mafia because we want to have fun, and I want to make a fun environment.
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On December 17 2013 09:41 Blazinghand wrote:Show nested quote +On December 17 2013 09:35 Corazon wrote:
There are also the people that constantly troll other players who don't do enough to get the hosts attention but do enough to get the person being trolled wanting to use the report button because he doesn't feel it is being handled correctly by the hosts.
We need a system to get rid of people who don't actually play the game and only troll, yet don't get any punishment because they are considered "veterans" by everyone else and immune to all of the rules. You're talking about something beyond just a temp ban, here, right? I recommend for situations like that that we use a "wisdom of the crowds" style rule that GM uses in his setups. Here's what he used most recently: Show nested quote +On November 16 2013 02:48 GMarshal wrote:
Special Signup rule: Wisdom of the Crowds: If you do not wish to play with a player for any reason, PM me, if I receive enough votes against a player (five or more) then he or she will not be allowed to play in this game. Your vote against a player will be held in the strictest confidence. You *must* be signed up to vote against someone.
This way, if there's a player who everyone hates but people are afraid to speak up about, there is a confidential way to not have to play with him! IMO Wisdom of the Crowds should become a standard rule for non-invite games.
Duly noted.
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On December 17 2013 09:46 Blazinghand wrote:Show nested quote +On December 17 2013 09:43 Corazon wrote:On December 17 2013 09:41 Blazinghand wrote:On December 17 2013 09:35 Corazon wrote:
There are also the people that constantly troll other players who don't do enough to get the hosts attention but do enough to get the person being trolled wanting to use the report button because he doesn't feel it is being handled correctly by the hosts.
We need a system to get rid of people who don't actually play the game and only troll, yet don't get any punishment because they are considered "veterans" by everyone else and immune to all of the rules. You're talking about something beyond just a temp ban, here, right? I recommend for situations like that that we use a "wisdom of the crowds" style rule that GM uses in his setups. Here's what he used most recently: On November 16 2013 02:48 GMarshal wrote:
Special Signup rule: Wisdom of the Crowds: If you do not wish to play with a player for any reason, PM me, if I receive enough votes against a player (five or more) then he or she will not be allowed to play in this game. Your vote against a player will be held in the strictest confidence. You *must* be signed up to vote against someone.
This way, if there's a player who everyone hates but people are afraid to speak up about, there is a confidential way to not have to play with him! IMO Wisdom of the Crowds should become a standard rule for non-invite games. Yes I agree with this. However, only GM does that. However, there are also people who troll outside of games or on PMs/non-game threads and can't get punished because it isn't a game. I just report those posts and nothing gets done about them. It only being GM who uses that rule is a problem, you're right-- so, let's roll Wisdom of the Crowds into our new banlist policy revamp. I personally promise that regardless of what gets chosen I'll include Wisdom of the Crowds in all games I host from now on anyways. Re: reporting posts in non-game threads, I recommend you PM GM instead of reporting them. I think the TL Mods mostly leave reports coming in from TL Mafia forum alone since they are somewhat aware of our internal rules. PM GM with quote, link, and reason.
I certainly like the idea of putting Wisdom of the Crowds as an actual rule in every game. We don't have enough people trolly or malicious enough on this subforum to abuse it (ie disallowing someone from entering a game even if they have no reason to be disallowed because 5 people are assholes  ) and it actually might prevent some of the larger problem cases from ruining games even if many people are apathetic enough about WotC to not bother voting/complaining.
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Wisdom of the crowds is a great solution and I recommend everyone does it. If we make that standard it might slowly correct the problems we face. I know I'll be using it if I choose to host again.
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sounds like a terrible rule that is going to make people feel bad.
quick let me organize a couple of people through PMs and we can someone who we dont like feel terrible. that is some high school level shit you are enabling.
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On December 17 2013 10:54 kushm4sta wrote:
sounds like a terrible rule that is going to make people feel bad.
quick let me organize a couple of people through PMs and we can someone who we dont like feel terrible. that is some high school level shit you are enabling.
Actually like I've already said, for the most part that won't happen here. Unless you're worried for some other reason, kush.
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There are points to both sides Kush, and I'm leaning towards no "Wisdom of the Crowds", but again I feel the answer is simply stricter hosting. That's it, the end. If THAT fails then escalate things imo.
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Hmm. I wasn't sure if I was going to post something here but I guess I will.
As someone who I guess has reputation as being a bit of a dick and who uses aggressiveness or whatever you want to call it as part of their defined meta and as a legitimate tool in the game I don't think it is appropriate to moderate this forum in the same way as the rest of the forum is moderated.
The fact of the matter is that mafia is a game of social interaction and being a dick is an important tool which many of the best players use when playing the game. If you remove that tool I think you are removing something important from the game itself.
Sure, It can become too much, and sometimes goes beyond playing the game and turns into something more and that is when you need to take a break from mafia. If things begin to upset you or things that are said during a game are taken personally then people should strongly consider taking a break to recharge the batteries as I have done.
But this is not the same as general discussion in a forum, This is a game in which being aggressive and slightly abusive totally and fundamentally has a place.
Sure there are Issues and here are some I have noticed.
Taking things personally and becoming abusive purely for personal reasons rather than as a part of the game.
Holding grudges and playing out those grudges within a game.
An example of these two things would be the unhealthy relationship that Cora and Coag share. They clearly have issues with one another and those issues are played out repeatedly, game after game, thread after thread.
Things that happen in one game should NEVER be continued into the next game.
Another point I think is important is that being toxic whilst not playing to your win condition has got to go.
This happens all the time and it is probably one of the worse things in the game.
It is fundamental to the game of mafia to be able to be a dick or abusive as part of the game. It is fundamental that people understand that it is only a part of the game and do not take things personally, hold grudges, play against their win condition by being toxic, carry on their disagreements into the next game etc.
Many of the best players in these forums are a bit salty.
Ace, Marv, Viscera Eyes, Blazinghand, Palmar etc.
Many of the ideas being espoused here sincerely make me worry about the future of the game on this site.
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On December 17 2013 10:59 Mid or Feed wrote:Show nested quote +On December 17 2013 10:54 kushm4sta wrote:
sounds like a terrible rule that is going to make people feel bad.
quick let me organize a couple of people through PMs and we can someone who we dont like feel terrible. that is some high school level shit you are enabling. Actually like I've already said, for the most part that won't happen here. Unless you're worried for some other reason, kush.
Nice account 
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I do not think that an institutionalized exclusion policy is the answer. That is really messed up. If you don't want to play with someone just don't play.
The wisdom of the crowds just gives people and outlet to express their personal grudges or biases both of which are unhealthy and should not exist in the first place.
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Like, If people just took a break when they began to get overwhelmed or emotional or take things personally this would not be an issue at all.
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United States4714 Posts
Darth, I agree with you that part of the problem is people sometimes take mafia too seriously and thus become too emotional. However, that doesn't mean allowing people to be dicks is good for TL mafia as a whole. People play the game for fun and many people don't enjoy playing in games where people are needlessly insulting and flaming each other. There are plenty of ways to play mafia that don't involve telling people to kill themselves.
If you look at the poll that kita made it appears that the majority of the players would enjoy the games more with less flaming.
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EPT
