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On December 17 2013 11:06 DarthPunk wrote:
I do not think that an institutionalized exclusion policy is the answer. That is really messed up. If you don't want to play with someone just don't play.
The wisdom of the crowds just gives people and outlet to express their personal grudges or biases both of which are unhealthy and should not exist in the first place.
I disagree wholeheartedly. You think if a bunch of people don't want to play with you then they're the problem?
It's one thing if it were a 1v1 thing like Coag v Cora, but from what I understand of WotC it requires a lot of people to not enjoy playing with somebody for that to work. Can you think of anybody who would be excluded from a game that doesn't deserve to be under such a policy?
It is fundamental to the game of mafia to be able to be a dick or abusive as part of the game. It is fundamental that people understand that it is only a part of the game and do not take things personally, hold grudges, play against their win condition by being toxic, carry on their disagreements into the next game etc.
Do you have a method of forcing this fundamental understanding onto people? Because if so, then problem solved, amirite?
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On December 17 2013 11:13 Mig wrote:
Darth, I agree with you that part of the problem is people sometimes take mafia too seriously and thus become too emotional. However, that doesn't mean allowing people to be dicks is good for TL mafia as a whole. People play the game for fun and many people don't enjoy playing in games where people are needlessly insulting and flaming each other. There are plenty of ways to play mafia that don't involve telling people to kill themselves.
If you look at the poll that kita made it appears that the majority of the players would enjoy the games more with less flaming.
Telling people to kill themselves is clearly going too far, but that is also a very extreme example, which is being used to discredit my point.
Aggression is without a doubt fundamental part of the game, as the game is fundamentally a game of social interactions.
For example; I would say calling someone a 'cum dumpster' or to 'kill themselves' is going too far.
But saying 'you're retarded' or 'that is fucking stupid' is not.
It IS an important tool or option to use. Sure, it is possible to play in a different way, but many people use aggressiveness as mafia for example to hide weaknesses in their arguments or to disguise inconsistency.
And if you do something as Mafia you have to do it as town.
I have been called scum many times for not being enough of a dick.
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On December 17 2013 11:20 Mid or Feed wrote:Show nested quote +On December 17 2013 11:06 DarthPunk wrote:
I do not think that an institutionalized exclusion policy is the answer. That is really messed up. If you don't want to play with someone just don't play.
The wisdom of the crowds just gives people and outlet to express their personal grudges or biases both of which are unhealthy and should not exist in the first place. I disagree wholeheartedly. You think if a bunch of people don't want to play with you then they're the problem? It's one thing if it were a 1v1 thing like Coag v Cora, but from what I understand of WotC it requires a lot of people to not enjoy playing with somebody for that to work. Can you think of anybody who would be excluded from a game that doesn't deserve to be under such a policy?Show nested quote +
It is fundamental to the game of mafia to be able to be a dick or abusive as part of the game. It is fundamental that people understand that it is only a part of the game and do not take things personally, hold grudges, play against their win condition by being toxic, carry on their disagreements into the next game etc.
Do you have a method of forcing this fundamental understanding onto people? Because if so, then problem solved, amirite?
Yes Kush. He would 100% be excluded from some games and it would not be deserved.
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On December 17 2013 11:23 DarthPunk wrote:Show nested quote +On December 17 2013 11:20 Mid or Feed wrote:On December 17 2013 11:06 DarthPunk wrote:
I do not think that an institutionalized exclusion policy is the answer. That is really messed up. If you don't want to play with someone just don't play.
The wisdom of the crowds just gives people and outlet to express their personal grudges or biases both of which are unhealthy and should not exist in the first place. I disagree wholeheartedly. You think if a bunch of people don't want to play with you then they're the problem? It's one thing if it were a 1v1 thing like Coag v Cora, but from what I understand of WotC it requires a lot of people to not enjoy playing with somebody for that to work. Can you think of anybody who would be excluded from a game that doesn't deserve to be under such a policy?
It is fundamental to the game of mafia to be able to be a dick or abusive as part of the game. It is fundamental that people understand that it is only a part of the game and do not take things personally, hold grudges, play against their win condition by being toxic, carry on their disagreements into the next game etc.
Do you have a method of forcing this fundamental understanding onto people? Because if so, then problem solved, amirite? Yes Kush. He would 100% be excluded from some games and it would not be deserved.
Someone who pms anybody this:
Original Message From kushm4sta:
Tech me how to troll as good as you
Should deserve to face the wrath of WotC
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United States4714 Posts
On December 17 2013 11:22 DarthPunk wrote:
But saying 'you're retarded' or 'that is fucking stupid' is not.
It IS an important tool or option to use. Sure, it is possible to play in a different way, but many people use aggressiveness as mafia for example to hide weaknesses in their arguments or to disguise inconsistency.
And if you do something as Mafia you have to do it as town.
I have been called scum many times for not being enough of a dick.
I don't think anyone is saying we should be modkilling for people saying "that is fucking stupid". Some aggressiveness is obviously fine and this is mafia sometimes emotions do run high and if someone makes 500 good posts then gets angry and makes 1 over the line they shouldn't be instantly modkilled.
All this being said, you can play an aggressive style without having to just insult people. If your mafia game revolves around calling everyone a fucking retard then a lot of people won't enjoy playing with you. So regardless of whether it is a legitimate strategy or not it isn't something that should be encouraged because it isn't fun for a lot of the people playing.
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On December 17 2013 11:23 DarthPunk wrote:Show nested quote +On December 17 2013 11:20 Mid or Feed wrote:On December 17 2013 11:06 DarthPunk wrote:
I do not think that an institutionalized exclusion policy is the answer. That is really messed up. If you don't want to play with someone just don't play.
The wisdom of the crowds just gives people and outlet to express their personal grudges or biases both of which are unhealthy and should not exist in the first place. I disagree wholeheartedly. You think if a bunch of people don't want to play with you then they're the problem? It's one thing if it were a 1v1 thing like Coag v Cora, but from what I understand of WotC it requires a lot of people to not enjoy playing with somebody for that to work. Can you think of anybody who would be excluded from a game that doesn't deserve to be under such a policy?
It is fundamental to the game of mafia to be able to be a dick or abusive as part of the game. It is fundamental that people understand that it is only a part of the game and do not take things personally, hold grudges, play against their win condition by being toxic, carry on their disagreements into the next game etc.
Do you have a method of forcing this fundamental understanding onto people? Because if so, then problem solved, amirite? Yes Kush. He would 100% be excluded from some games and it would not be deserved.
Well you and I probably disagree on the fundamental meaning of 'deserved,' then. (And this is probably not a discussion for this thread.)
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I think anyone who gets shut out with WotC does not "deserve" to be here and should be forced to beg and grovel for their place back in TL Mafia.
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On December 17 2013 11:30 Corazon wrote:Show nested quote +On December 17 2013 11:23 DarthPunk wrote:On December 17 2013 11:20 Mid or Feed wrote:On December 17 2013 11:06 DarthPunk wrote:
I do not think that an institutionalized exclusion policy is the answer. That is really messed up. If you don't want to play with someone just don't play.
The wisdom of the crowds just gives people and outlet to express their personal grudges or biases both of which are unhealthy and should not exist in the first place. I disagree wholeheartedly. You think if a bunch of people don't want to play with you then they're the problem? It's one thing if it were a 1v1 thing like Coag v Cora, but from what I understand of WotC it requires a lot of people to not enjoy playing with somebody for that to work. Can you think of anybody who would be excluded from a game that doesn't deserve to be under such a policy?
It is fundamental to the game of mafia to be able to be a dick or abusive as part of the game. It is fundamental that people understand that it is only a part of the game and do not take things personally, hold grudges, play against their win condition by being toxic, carry on their disagreements into the next game etc.
Do you have a method of forcing this fundamental understanding onto people? Because if so, then problem solved, amirite? Yes Kush. He would 100% be excluded from some games and it would not be deserved. Someone who pms anybody this: Should deserve to face the wrath of WotC
Cora you are a a large contributor to the problem. You always take things personally, hold grudges and allow those grudges to manifest in the next games. Maybe you should take I break like me?
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On December 17 2013 11:35 Corazon wrote:
I think anyone who gets shut out with WotC does not "deserve" to be here and should be forced to beg and grovel for their place back in TL Mafia.
This post is not appropriate cora.
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On December 17 2013 11:35 DarthPunk wrote:Show nested quote +On December 17 2013 11:30 Corazon wrote:On December 17 2013 11:23 DarthPunk wrote:On December 17 2013 11:20 Mid or Feed wrote:On December 17 2013 11:06 DarthPunk wrote:
I do not think that an institutionalized exclusion policy is the answer. That is really messed up. If you don't want to play with someone just don't play.
The wisdom of the crowds just gives people and outlet to express their personal grudges or biases both of which are unhealthy and should not exist in the first place. I disagree wholeheartedly. You think if a bunch of people don't want to play with you then they're the problem? It's one thing if it were a 1v1 thing like Coag v Cora, but from what I understand of WotC it requires a lot of people to not enjoy playing with somebody for that to work. Can you think of anybody who would be excluded from a game that doesn't deserve to be under such a policy?
It is fundamental to the game of mafia to be able to be a dick or abusive as part of the game. It is fundamental that people understand that it is only a part of the game and do not take things personally, hold grudges, play against their win condition by being toxic, carry on their disagreements into the next game etc.
Do you have a method of forcing this fundamental understanding onto people? Because if so, then problem solved, amirite? Yes Kush. He would 100% be excluded from some games and it would not be deserved. Someone who pms anybody this: Original Message From kushm4sta:
Tech me how to troll as good as you Should deserve to face the wrath of WotC Cora you are a a large contributor to the problem. You always take things personally, hold grudges and allow those grudges to manifest in the next games. Maybe you should take I break like me?
Why don't you read the big picture before making statements like that.
I hold grudges against 3-4 people (who will not be named). I don't break them out in the games. I don't even talk to the people I have a grudge with. I avoid them, like I should.
Why is it when other people are parasites to this forum, they don't get called out for it, but whenever I say anything, I get called out and accused of things that are obviously not true? Why do they get confidentiality and I don't?
If anyone is reading Titanic, my behavior was really good until the last bit. I have 2 responses to getting irritated:
1) Getting mad and being a dick (what happened in BttB)
2) Not willing to play or post (what happened in Titanic)
Does anything I say actually matter at this point? I get the feeling that no matter what I say or what I do, I'm just going to get hate for it.
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On December 17 2013 11:22 DarthPunk wrote:
I have been called scum many times for not being enough of a dick.
Sadly, I am guilty of this. However, if such behavior was more strictly moderated, it would no longer be a viable point of calling someone scum since they are in fear of disciplinary action.
I am on the fence with regards to DP's point about having an "abusive" meta. Something like "Have you seen what he's been writing? Guy is obviously too stupid to find scum" is not over the line, as it is using the perceived intelligence as an argument against believing that player. This is what a lot of the game is about, changing the way people read one another to further your win-con.
Most of the time, furthering your win-con is trying to make YOU look better/smarter/townier, but in some cases you NEED to be able to call someone (or at least their logic) terrible/stupid/scummy. We all understand that the game can get emotional and personal attacks are more likely to occur when you are riled up. It is going to be a part of the game, so this is a very fine line to be walked in terms of identifying what level of insults is classified as "going too far".
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United States4714 Posts
Cora, you have had one person disagree with you. There is no need to play the victim.
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On December 17 2013 11:30 Mig wrote:Show nested quote +On December 17 2013 11:22 DarthPunk wrote:
But saying 'you're retarded' or 'that is fucking stupid' is not.
It IS an important tool or option to use. Sure, it is possible to play in a different way, but many people use aggressiveness as mafia for example to hide weaknesses in their arguments or to disguise inconsistency.
And if you do something as Mafia you have to do it as town.
I have been called scum many times for not being enough of a dick. I don't think anyone is saying we should be modkilling for people saying "that is fucking stupid". Some aggressiveness is obviously fine and this is mafia sometimes emotions do run high and if someone makes 500 good posts then gets angry and makes 1 over the line they shouldn't be instantly modkilled. All this being said, you can play an aggressive style without having to just insult people. If your mafia game revolves around calling everyone a fucking retard then a lot of people won't enjoy playing with you. So regardless of whether it is a legitimate strategy or not it isn't something that should be encouraged because it isn't fun for a lot of the people playing.
But if you DO play an aggressive style, and some of the things that are being mentioned come to pass. Then people will get banned or move on. 1 post in 500 is not a realistic expectation of the manner in which aggressiveness could or should be used.
Marv, Ace, VE, Palmar, Blazinghand. These are all people that this will affect in some way. And these are all people who are highly valuable to the community.
I am just saying to be very careful about how you regulate, that is all. Because it has the potential to be a net negative IMO.
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On December 17 2013 11:40 Mig wrote:
Cora, you have had one person disagree with you. There is no need to play the victim.
This isn't just directed at DP, it's kind of based off of my posts in BttB postgame that were completely ignored.
It just sucks that I'm held to different standards than other players.
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Cora, enough. If we are to be naming names I am in agreement with DP on this one. Let it go and let's move the discussion back to where it needs to go and discuss how we're going to be dealing with behaviour and other issues here.
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Cora. After I posted here you just sent me two abusive PM's. We are not in a game and obviously you are taking things very personally.
This is what I was talking about. Sigh.
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I would love to hear that I am the biggest asshole and the biggest problem in TL Mafia. Stop (directed at all) taking cheap shots at me and stop attacking me without looking at the big picture and without looking at anything I ever say. It's really wrong to make a conclusion based on one side of the argument.
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This discussion isn't going to go anywhere. It's just going to go back into how I'm such a big problem and how I'm such an asshole and I'm the only problem in this subforum when you all need to open your eyes.
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DP how am I supposed to feel when you lie about me
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I don't particularly care whether you guys ignore my points I raised earlier.
What I do care about is however is that, whatever enforcement comes from this discussion is issued out fairly regardless of status in the forum.
In my opinion: I don't think that WotC is the solution.
What it does is to create a system of discrimination/ostracizing that ironically will perpetuate this very culture you are trying to mitigate in the first place.
In regards to emotional "butthurt":
what is the difference someone between Troll A saying "you're a cum dumpster"
and a group of people unanimously voting "you're not worthy to play a free game on a free forum"
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EPT
