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geript
10024 Posts
On December 19 2013 15:32 VisceraEyes wrote: The sacrifices you make for the good of the community. I stand in awe, sir. I AM AWE-STRICKEN!!! Stop feeding the troll VE. As a side note, I finally realized why I instantly liked you when I first heard you. Your voice reminds me of one of my favorite authors, David Rackoff. | ||
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Mr. Wiggles
Canada5894 Posts
I feel that there's a few things I'd like to chime in on quickly. Firstly, I think that people should realize the difference between attacking someone's arguments and attacking the player. I don't see a problem with attacking someone's case or their behaviour when calling them scum, e.g. "Your case is terrible because of x, y, and z", but I do feel there is a problem when this turns into attacking the player instead, and people write things like, "You're fucking retarded, because of x, y, and z". There's a clear separation between attacking the content of someone's posts, versus attacking the poster themselves. I feel that keeping this distinction in mind would also help curb the escalation of flame wars, since it's easier to take a personal insult to heart than someone insulting your argument. Secondly, I think that people can play aggressively without needing to be overly insulting to other players. It might be a difference in how you define playing "aggressively", but I don't see why aggressively pushing someone, calling them out, or tearing apart their cases needs to go hand in hand with calling them names or trying to actively make them feel crappy. I'm not saying that's what people imply when they say they like to be aggressive, but I think there's better ways to get a reaction out of someone than by doing something that would get you banned on the rest of TL. Lastly, I don't think I'd want to see WotC implemented in every game. In my experience here, there's been a few over time players that people in general didn't like playing with for some length of time, and the reasons for this have ranged from not liking their play style, to thinking they were unskilled, to thinking they actively try to ruin games. In some of these cases, I felt the dislike was unwarranted, and using WotC might have kept some players from joining games. In general, I just don't feel like it's a consistent way to improve games, since in some cases a player's behaviour that causes them to be removed from the game might be something they actually need to address, but in other cases, it might just be a behaviour that goes against what people expect or what the meta is, or that is somewhat unpopular, and so that player might be unfairly discriminated against. That's about all I have to say for now, I might have forgotten something I wanted to talk about when I was reading the thread. I just went through the whole thing in one go, so I might come back and add something here later. | ||
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Holyflare
United Kingdom30775 Posts
On December 19 2013 18:36 Mr. Wiggles wrote: I guess I'm a little late to the party. I haven't played much recently since I've been pretty busy, but still check in on the forum every now and again. I feel that there's a few things I'd like to chime in on quickly. Firstly, I think that people should realize the difference between attacking someone's arguments and attacking the player. I don't see a problem with attacking someone's case or their behaviour when calling them scum, e.g. "Your case is terrible because of x, y, and z", but I do feel there is a problem when this turns into attacking the player instead, and people write things like, "You're fucking retarded, because of x, y, and z". There's a clear separation between attacking the content of someone's posts, versus attacking the poster themselves. I feel that keeping this distinction in mind would also help curb the escalation of flame wars, since it's easier to take a personal insult to heart than someone insulting your argument. Secondly, I think that people can play aggressively without needing to be overly insulting to other players. It might be a difference in how you define playing "aggressively", but I don't see why aggressively pushing someone, calling them out, or tearing apart their cases needs to go hand in hand with calling them names or trying to actively make them feel crappy. I'm not saying that's what people imply when they say they like to be aggressive, but I think there's better ways to get a reaction out of someone than by doing something that would get you banned on the rest of TL. Lastly, I don't think I'd want to see WotC implemented in every game. In my experience here, there's been a few over time players that people in general didn't like playing with for some length of time, and the reasons for this have ranged from not liking their play style, to thinking they were unskilled, to thinking they actively try to ruin games. In some of these cases, I felt the dislike was unwarranted, and using WotC might have kept some players from joining games. In general, I just don't feel like it's a consistent way to improve games, since in some cases a player's behaviour that causes them to be removed from the game might be something they actually need to address, but in other cases, it might just be a behaviour that goes against what people expect or what the meta is, or that is somewhat unpopular, and so that player might be unfairly discriminated against. That's about all I have to say for now, I might have forgotten something I wanted to talk about when I was reading the thread. I just went through the whole thing in one go, so I might come back and add something here later. So what do you think about my modified WotC? | ||
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VisceraEyes
United States21171 Posts
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marvellosity
United Kingdom36161 Posts
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VisceraEyes
United States21171 Posts
On December 20 2013 02:16 marvellosity wrote: I always PM you to come play with me, but then at the same time I PM hosts not to let you in :/ :OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO | ||
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Kurumi
Poland6130 Posts
On December 20 2013 02:12 VisceraEyes wrote: I would have been Wisdomed out of several games here on TL. I would have deserved it too O.O Makes no sense to me. Besides you being a paranoid dodo sometimes and making decisions in a blood rush *coughs* Veteran Zombie *coughs*. It is just the way you are. Sure, you can and you did tone it down, but it wasn't because you got wotc'ed. People need to want to change, keeping them out of the game doesn't do much. | ||
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Holyflare
United Kingdom30775 Posts
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Blazinghand
United States25558 Posts
On December 20 2013 02:46 Holyflare wrote: It's as if i posted a solution to what everyone is saying but then nobody reads it T_T All this stuff is treating symptoms, imo, the real solution is to do movie nights together and play video games together | ||
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marvellosity
United Kingdom36161 Posts
On December 20 2013 02:46 Holyflare wrote: It's as if i posted a solution to what everyone is saying but then nobody reads it T_T tldr sweetcheeks | ||
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Holyflare
United Kingdom30775 Posts
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Blazinghand
United States25558 Posts
On December 20 2013 03:07 Holyflare wrote: Movie nights and playing together aren't going to stop people lurking and being bad Yeah and they're not gonna stop malaria either but my goal isn't to stop malaria. More clearly: I don't care (too much) if people are low skilled, and if people lurk we can just policy them or whatever. We're not considering bringing in TL Moderation because people are unskilled or because people lurk-- we're considering it due to bad behavior. My solution directly tackles the underlying problem. | ||
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Holyflare
United Kingdom30775 Posts
WotC where people need to write reasons why they want someone out of the game to the host via pm and if someone get's the required amount of votes to be out of the game the host tells the player that he needs to improve if he wants to play in that game by doing x,y,z (the things players dislike the player for) if he fails to do that then it is discussed in post game and a harsher punishment than normal can be distributed. Obviously no silly or trivial things can be taken as reasoning and that's only for behavioural things really, there's a whole lot of other things for lurkers etc etc stop being lazy and read my post!!!  (((( Click? ((((( | ||
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Holyflare
United Kingdom30775 Posts
On December 20 2013 03:11 Blazinghand wrote: Yeah and they're not gonna stop malaria either but my goal isn't to stop malaria. More clearly: I don't care (too much) if people are low skilled, and if people lurk we can just policy them or whatever. We're not considering bringing in TL Moderation because people are unskilled or because people lurk-- we're considering it due to bad behavior. My solution directly tackles the underlying problem. Half of the games I've played in aren't ruined by behavioural problems but instead by lurkers and shitty anti town attitudes (not aggressive to people just not playing the game) - being bad at the game was a joke i don't mind that. Playing with people isn't going to make those problems disappear but yes it will get rid of most attitude problems i'm not disagreeing. and don't tell me about policy lynching because no matter how many times you mention it in a game more often than not nobody accepts it.... policy lynching is also getting rid of a player that has already /in'd to a game and -'s a player from a potential town pool thus weakening the playerbase before the game has even really started, this way it eliminates that pre-game rather than in game. | ||
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Blazinghand
United States25558 Posts
On December 20 2013 03:16 Holyflare wrote: Half of the games I've played in aren't ruined by behavioural problems but instead by lurkers and shitty anti town attitudes (not aggressive to people just not playing the game) - being bad at the game was a joke i don't mind that. Playing with people isn't going to make those problems disappear but yes it will get rid of most attitude problems i'm not disagreeing. and don't tell me about policy lynching because no matter how many times you mention it in a game more often than not nobody accepts it.... policy lynching is also getting rid of a player that has already /in'd to a game and -'s a player from a potential town pool thus weakening the playerbase before the game has even really started, this way it eliminates that pre-game rather than in game. Though I disagree with your conclusions, I think that what you've said is a reasonable point to make, and if you believe the thing that "ruins" games is people not playing the game by choice or by chance, rather than people being mean and flaming and violating TL rules, I see why you'd think that way. Maybe this is just me, but aside from one game in which Marv decided that lynching me was more important than winning, for the most part the only thing I've run into that's a problem is people getting out of line from time to time. I do understand that in the past few months things have really amped up on the flaming though. I guess when it comes down to it, part of it is making sure the games are fun and welcoming, and that new users don't get scared off by the flaming. I think this is more important, more urgent, and more easily fixable than things about "playing to your win con" or whatever. When it comes down to it, if we're friends outside of the Mafia games, we WILL try to have fun together. The urgent thing, the thing that matters, is dealing with the anger issues we have developed. And I think doing that is pretty easy. E: regarding policy lynches, you can say what you want but I love policy lynching, rng lynching, etc. This is my favorite thing to do and I have gotten it done more than once | ||
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marvellosity
United Kingdom36161 Posts
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Blazinghand
United States25558 Posts
On December 20 2013 03:43 marvellosity wrote: if you hadn't been doctor. curses. i'll get you next time! *yarrrrr* | ||
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bumatlarge
United States4567 Posts
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Holyflare
United Kingdom30775 Posts
On December 20 2013 03:43 marvellosity wrote: if you hadn't been doctor. curses. dat 6 hour before lynch claim tho | ||
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Blazinghand
United States25558 Posts
the secret to my claiming is I claim at a time it makes no sense to claim and provides me no benefit, that way people know it's true | ||
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