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iGrok
United States5142 Posts
I've been too concerned about my setups, and have been too lenient. This will change. My suggestion is to do peer reviews post-game. Each player reviews the setup, the host, the gameplay, and the players. Even if most people just zip through it, some will take the time to flesh out their thoughts and some really good things could come from it. | ||
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DarthPunk
Australia10847 Posts
On December 17 2013 21:13 marvellosity wrote: Eh, was gonna write a lot but meh :p. Generally agree with things that DarthPunk, purpletrator, thrawn wrote. WoS mentioned Onegu, I have no problem with Onegu other than he clearly shouldn't be signing up for more than one game at once. At the end of the day mafia is adversarial, and it's based on calling other people liars. Irl this is one of the worst accusations you can level at a person, it's no surprise things can get heated, and if you're sucking all the emotion out of mafia then that's a terrible thing. Mafia are trying to lie, deceive and twist town, town are thinking everyone is a bullshitter or liar. The very premise of the game is not nicey-nice. I hosted LXIII because I felt the previous couple normals had been plagued by some weird hosting decisions or unfortunate host absences (nothing against meapak, shit happens). Regarding behaviour, I was happy with the behaviour in my game. I think I warned once (twice? not sure i bothered the 2nd time) when I thought it might get out of hand and that was that. I'm pretty sure some people might have found some of the things said in my game offensive, but for me a certain level of emotion, and sometimes outbursts, are simply always going to occur. I think the whole playerbase pretty much was happy with the moderation in this game. Hosts need to be on top of their game and just be very clear what is and isn't acceptable. Warn when it's starting to cross a line, and follow through on your standard (whether your standard is lenient or strict). People need to know what they're signing up for. Anyone who signs up for a game I host should know that I'm reasonably lenient but I *will* warn when I need to and I *will* modkill if the behaviour continues. Simple. GMarshal should not have been hosting BttB if he couldn't keep up with the game and moderate it. Personally I hate inactivity/trolling way more than I dislike any heat-of-the-moment outbursts. Like BC said, play to win. Above all, play to win. Too many townies don't actually try. Try goddamnit, every lynch matters, your slot matters, what you post matters, giving a shit matters. Turns out I wrote more than I thought I was going to... Marv I miss your body. | ||
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OdinOfPergo
United States840 Posts
I agree with some points and not so much on others. First off, activity. A single post per cycle is stupid. If you spend any amount of time at this game you can usually come up with some sort of opinion. What I mean is; if you check into an OP, you can get *usually* a updated cycle post. You can then filter people that are on those. Otherwise you can read 10 pages in a few minutes around those (Maby a little longer if your a terribly slow reader, like myself.) Get a grip on the immediate task at hand, and pump out at least a few post of content, if you filter people. If someone else is around, that you can bounce ideas off of at the time, you can probably get a few times fold on that. This needs fixed. It only serves to promote really lazy town play and permit scum to do it. Neither is acceptable. Less than 10 post a cycle though (It's 24 hours at night cycle.., anyone who spends at least an hour or two can accomplish this. Period.) makes me wonder why someone signed up in the first place. WOTC comments: I kind of like this idea. The simple answer to me.. Blatantly put - Screw anonymity. I have several people I would prefer not to play with again. In my 4 mafia games played... ever. Do I care that those people, causing me to not want to continue to play this game, know that they are the reason? No. I feel like this option also helps weed out "clicks" trying to ban out people for no better reason than "Oh well, me and my friends don't want to play with you." I don't really like the Tl.net bans (for months) along with this though. Ye, I might be on the fence, because I hardly post elsewhere anyway. But if I was really active in the LoL/SC2 sub-forums myself right now this would probably cause me to never play mafia on this site again. I'm not... thus I really don't care(I play Lol/SC sporadically *at this point*. Being terrible at both games, I never post crap to either sub-forum.) So a ban would still mean nothing to me.) I read and keep up to date with topics but being denied other outlets on this site all-together would/will drive me away from it. I can't talk about this from a vet standard though. Mafia is full of emotions. Try being bipolar, and getting a 6 months bans because you decided to have a drink on your good night. Which promtpy turned into a "You fucking serious? (Snide turd flinging contest ensues)". It's wrong. But getting a several month ban over it, I don't agree with it at all. Ok yes, some players can be a real hassle. More so if you are unfamiliar with them. But is it a ban-worthy offense? Aggression, as noted, is part of this game. I'm going to go out on a limb and hopefully not cross borders (Can ez edit if I do!!) "Pls die" is something I heard at least 25 times a day from a certain someone. When I heard it, I pretty much confirmed him as town for showing genuine frustration. Did anyone else in the game know it? No. Should he get a several month ban over it? Over what? One liners/ two post per cycle coasters? Fuck no. It's retarded. Fast edit: Compare my last Newbie/White Flag/ PYP Lol games. In two of them I was really frustrated and trying to shift/ figure things out. One of them I was really just bothered to try playing two games. Even when I forgot to /out (to aviod playing multiple games) I still tried to give my best in the time restrains I had in both of them. Also edit: Cut out lurker comment, as per was brought up to me, every game has some sort of problem with this. But that doesn't translate to "I should just condone it." to me.. | ||
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Crossfire99
United States1529 Posts
On December 17 2013 09:55 LSB wrote: I am really saddened by the fact that this is becoming a problem I believe TL is a place built on heavy moderation, and as users of the site we should agree with this policy. This whole "this forum is a special place for flame" doesn't make sense to me. People need to begin to understand their behavior in a mafia game should have consequences for outside of the game. At the same time, I think we should reward good sportsmanship. Possibly invite only games, having hosts put tags behind players on the signup sheet for "friendly play" ect. Although disruptive a ban may be, flame is even more disruptive to a game. I find it problematical when people consider insults as necessary to further their win condition, or bait to attempt to further their win condition. A lot of us play mafia because we want to have fun, and I want to make a fun environment. I think you misunderstood me and I can see why because what I wrote is confusing. I meant that statement to mean the exact opposite of what you think it means. Excessive personal attacks are warn/modkill worthy even if they further your win condition. | ||
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Crossfire99
United States1529 Posts
As for the playing against the win condition stuff. Honestly, this can only be enforced by the hosts and should only be enforced by them. Not many people know this but I had serious thoughts about modkilling kush (smufing as OOHCHILD) in ## mafia. I bring this up not to shame him or attack him or anything like that because he shaped up and played well afterwards and I respect and thank him for it. I think this is a good example of what hosts need to do in a game (and players in this situation) from now on. I'll quote our pms that we had. He's ok with me posting this. First off I said this in my host qt: Idk. I really kinda feel like he is playing bad purposely and he's town. Like I wanna modkill him for playing against his win condition but I might be overreacting. Like this post got my blood boiling. I then had this pm exchange: Original Message From Crossfire99: Ok. Let's put it this way. I just got to that part and it pissed me off cause it seemed like the rest of your play was not trying at all and using a newbie persona as an excuse for that. I'm sorry if I misread that. All I expect from my players is that they try their best. If you really try to play the game I am fine. Consider this water under the bridge then if you really are trying to play seriously. Just don't insult people while playing. Like I said earlier after this exchange, kush played better. I thank him for that and for letting me use him as an example. Mr. Cheesecake, my cohost, and GMarshal, a boss, were a great help in this situation for maintaining a good perspective and I thank them for that. I think hosts should do something similar as well. PM/warn the player(s) you have problems with. Discuss things over with your cohosts and other outside people you respect in order to make a better decision about warning/modkilling people because if we want hosts being more proactive for playing against win condition (which I think we should) then having other perspectives is a big help. TL;DR: Hosts need to be more proactive about warning/modkilling for playing against win condition which will require more work on their part. I also gave an example of it from my time hosting ## mafia. | ||
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Alakaslam
United States17322 Posts
Wisdom of the Crowd I know, this is why I am migrating to hosting. I am perfectly set up for hosting to become not as difficult as playing. Not half as difficult. | ||
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kushm4sta
United States8878 Posts
On October 30 2013 10:16 OOHCHILD wrote: [/quote]Oh WoS I actually think you are town now. Still glad I nuked you. Also I took away your twitter powers tomorrow as an extra f u. Crossfire I think you crossed the line by interfering with my play for this quote. There are no ad hominem attacks here. There is no anti wincon behavior if you look at the context, which was that I was constantly changing my mind about his alignment. I thought he could be scum, so why is it wrong to nuke him/take away his twitter powers? Also if you act somewhat outrageously, you can use that as a test to see how people respond, and get reads off them from that. I mean I'm not saying I played brilliantly that game or anything, or even played good, but what I did was not illegal and you had no right as a mod to interfere. | ||
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Crossfire99
United States1529 Posts
On December 18 2013 02:42 kushm4sta wrote: Crossfire I think you crossed the line by interfering with my play for this quote. There are no ad hominem attacks here. There is no anti wincon behavior if you look at the context, which was that I was constantly changing my mind about his alignment. I thought he could be scum, so why is it wrong to nuke him/take away his twitter powers? Also if you act somewhat outrageously, you can use that as a test to see how people respond, and get reads off them from that. I mean I'm not saying I played brilliantly that game or anything, or even played good, but what I did was not illegal and you had no right as a mod to interfere. First, I just want to preface this by saying I'm not trying to get this thread off topic and just used that example of how I think hosts should be more aggressive/strict in their moderating. If my response to this is not relevant for this discussion, then I'll edit it out. If it is, then we can continue. Yeah I agree, it wasn't just that quote that got me upset. It was your entire body of play up until that point. I agree most of what you said wasn't a lot of personal attacks (but there were some as well). A lot of it was what seemed to be trolling. You smurfed in that game, pretended to be a first time player, arbitrarily stopped interacting with people for no reason multiple times, antagonized people, etc. Even if you meant for these things to have a purpose to further you win condition, most of them did not come across that way, and seemed antagonistic for the purposes of being antagonistic. To me this is also the same as attacking someone personally repeatedly in order to get a response to judge their alignment. It may be possible to do that, but I find that method unacceptable because it isn't very fun (and we play this game for fun; you may have fun antagonizing people, but those people don't have fun being antagonized; this is different from repeatedly refuting their arguments because they can achieve the same thing, but one goes about it in a more acceptable manner). I also got more angry at you because you said you wanted to play like shit (to me this meant not to try), which was why I got so upset, but you clarified what you meant. In the end I didn't modkill you, and just let it be, but I am still glad that I did it because I wanted the trolling to stop or at least what I thought was trolling and honestly what some of thread did as well. I guess people can discuss what I said and did and discuss if people think that is too harsh or what. I'll definitely want to hear other peoples opinions. Hopefully everybody can learn from this. | ||
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raynpelikoneet
Finland43188 Posts
Now i do not know what kushmasta's intentions in that game were but i definitely do not think he was even close in "crossing some line". | ||
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Crossfire99
United States1529 Posts
On December 18 2013 03:42 raynpelikoneet wrote: I don't think there was anything wrong in kush's play in ##'s game in a way you are trying to make it look like Crossfire. In that game i personally tried to make marv distracted from the actual game for a full phase, not with personal attacks but by attacking him in a way that's so stupid and in so many ways it would not serve any purpose other than "shitting up the thread". It's called strategy, and town players can do that as well. When people get emotionally invested they play differently and say things they don't think of very well - distracting the town by doing so, or scumhunting by doing so - both can be done. Now i do not know what kushmasta's intentions in that game were but i definitely do not think he was even close in "crossing some line". I'm not saying his play the entire game or most of it was like that, just his day/night 1 play because we had those pms during night 1. I'm also not trying to misrepresent his play that day/night. That is what I thought of his play during that time frame, and like i said in that pm exchange, I apologized if I misread his posts, but I do know I wasn't the only one who thought of his play like that during day/night 1. Maybe I still was too harsh, and I definitely want to hear other people's opinions, but I think it is good to discuss stuff like this out (referring to what's happening in this thread), so we aren't too harsh or too lenient. I know I'm not perfect. | ||
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
1. Playing/moderating a game should be largely the same. I don't think putting new in-game rules, or having someone other than the host doing modkills or TL bans during a game, is a good idea. I like the dynamic of a host having control over his game. People don't like that some hosts are less aggressive about moderation or more aggressive (ie the shitstorm when ange777 modkilled more aggressively than most in her most recent game), but imo having a variety of hosting styles is a strength, not a weakness. I want that authority, at least during the game, to rest with the host. 2. The amount of "not playing to wincon", trolling, and abuse should go down. I don't know what the best solution to this is. A super obvious solution that would get rid of trolling and abuse would be to just have this board moderated exactly like the rest of TL; reports, bans, and so on, without regard to ongoing games. That would definitely solve abuse and trolling, though people playing not to their wincon (ie marv deciding to lynch me for funsies even though he knew I was town) would still be unpunished. More importantly though the problem with having just regular TL moderation during games with reports and so on is that it can disrupt games pretty easily. Things like strategically reporting people on the other team might happen. I think this authority is best in the hands of the hosts. 3. The TL Mafia community should come to see each other as friends, not enemies. EchelonTee had a good point that an out-of-Mafia interaction like playing games together could help a lot. We should do team-building exercises and play voice mafia more so we come to be friends with each other, that way this kind of thing doesn't happen. This is best solved not via a rule change imo, but via team-building, group gaming, voice mafia, and so on. We need to become a community again. iGrok and I, for example, had our differences in the past, but we are the best of buds now from many games of dota together (though actually dota may be a bad example given how much clarity rage i've seen lololol). Ultimately I think more than anything else this will strike at the root cause of our problems. ![[image loading]](http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/internet_argument.png) | ||
GMarshal
United States22154 Posts
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
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WaveofShadow
Canada31494 Posts
Crossfire I think you crossed the line by interfering with my play for this quote. There are no ad hominem attacks here. There is no anti wincon behavior if you look at the context, which was that I was constantly changing my mind about his alignment. I thought he could be scum, so why is it wrong to nuke him/take away his twitter powers? Also if you act somewhat outrageously, you can use that as a test to see how people respond, and get reads off them from that. I mean I'm not saying I played brilliantly that game or anything, or even played good, but what I did was not illegal and you had no right as a mod to interfere. So...is there any particular reason you have to continually antagonize me in games and out under the guise of 'joking?' I'd almost believe what you say is true regarding it being strategy if you weren't constantly an ass to me outside of games as well. In fact I'm almost certain you specifically stated part of the reason you created that account was to troll me---whether that is true or not, that statement in and of itself is meant to troll me. Let's get this out Kush, because I'm honestly sick of it, especially since GMarshal's post has more or less wrapped things up. | ||
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raynpelikoneet
Finland43188 Posts
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WaveofShadow
Canada31494 Posts
On December 18 2013 04:30 raynpelikoneet wrote: Okay if WoS thinks so then i am wrong. I have to go back and look at his play contextually because I don't remember the game 100%, but I'm not trying to prove Xfire's point here or not. I'm just sick of fighting with Kush and perpetuating it. I've tried to bury the hatchet before and he won't let it die so I'd like to figure out why. On December 18 2013 04:22 Blazinghand wrote: I'd also like to add in that we should do more voice mafia, team building exercises, and playing of video games together. This ESPECIALLY applies to people who maybe have bad interactions with other players (I'm not gonna name names, but definitely iGrok jkjk) and want to improve that. When it comes down to it, we're all reasonable people and some out of game interactions might be able to help us a lot. Agreed. I haven't has as much time to play LoL lately as I used to but we should try to run stacks again, because it was a lot of fun for the most part if I remember correctly, and quite a lot of us play. I know BH keeps trying to get me to talk/play HS with him too ^^ | ||
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raynpelikoneet
Finland43188 Posts
That was my point.  | ||
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WaveofShadow
Canada31494 Posts
On December 18 2013 04:36 raynpelikoneet wrote: What i meant is if someone feels something is personally offending i am not the one to argue about if it really is so or not. I can't be "right" or "wrong", only the person in question can. That was my point. If Kush and I were on amiable or even neutral terms there is absolutely no question that I would have not found anything he did that game offensive. Annoying in terms of his early trolliness maybe, but not offensive. Rayn at this point you could probably go into one of your weird 'drunk-tunnel-WoS' rants and I doubt it would bother me a great deal, but the point is the context of the relationship between Kush and I doesn't allow for me not to be bothered by his actions, and possibly vice-versa. | ||
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layabout
United Kingdom2600 Posts
But we are allowed to swear at each other right? And we are allowed to call things stupid (but hopefully with a helpful reason)? Because you have to be able to swear at your stupid friends! Maybe somebody should run "Courteous Mafia". It could be a very British affair, most proper. Or maybe very role-play-y.. + Show Spoiler + Can we adopt "cum dumpster" as a term of endearment? I really want to call people that now | ||
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layabout
United Kingdom2600 Posts
When you have talked to somebody or even heard them (RIP podcast) it's much harder to hate them. So maybe reboot the podcast or encourage people to play voice. There should also be more effort in newbies to remind people of the differences between in game and out of game so people have the right attitude going in? Perhaps people could just act more maturely. | ||
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