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Message GMarshal if you request a ban please ^_^
Also when the game you're sitting out is over!
~GMarshal |
On March 08 2014 11:53 geript wrote:Show nested quote +On March 08 2014 11:34 Keirathi wrote:
I will say that I vehemently disagree with that point from BH. IMO, when you /in to a game you are consenting to follow that game's rules even if they aren't "normal" TL rules. I don't think a rule being non-standard should exclude you from the consequences of breaking those rules. I just want to understand you're point here clearly. My rule set for PYP is probably one of the strictest around. People even noted it in pregame. Let's say I modkill someone for breaking a rule. You agree that they should receive a ban?
I don't necessarily agree that they should automatically, no questions asked, get a ban. But I  O* think that it is 100% within the hosts' rights to ask for a ban if they feel it is warranted.
On March 08 2014 11:53 geript wrote:
For example, austinmcc made a post after his death. My rule set specifically says no posting after death and I reminded people of it twice. Does he deserve a ban for breaking the rules? Prome made a point to say that I should remind people of the differences between my rules and 'normal' rules. I don't think that would be fair or right and I would hope everyone would speak up for that.
Again, asking for bans isn't some black-or-white thing. Would a warning be more appropriate than a ban? Etc.
Basically, I think that (almost?) anything in a game that is modkill worthy is at least warning worthy. Ban worthy? Probably more on a case-by-case basis and how egregious the offense is and if the host wants to push it.
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You can't bring up anything pre-banlist 2.0. I know. I've tried. People don't care. Blanket immunity. Blahblahblah.
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On March 08 2014 10:55 Aquanim wrote:Show nested quote +On March 08 2014 10:52 Coagulation wrote:On October 09 2013 07:03 GMarshal wrote:On October 08 2013 11:29 Meapak_Ziphh wrote:
TL Noir bans
1 game for both geript visceraeyes, as geript stated, he got himself modkilled. VE did the same thing and also PM'd people his alignment. Approved :D geript is sitting out Hogwarts atm, he should PM me when its over so I can remove him VE, remember to sit something out please ^_^ VE did the exact same thing as mocst and everyone was like oh ok 1 game ban and that was that. you guys need to stop cherry picking shit. Show nested quote +On March 08 2014 10:52 geript wrote:On March 08 2014 10:48 Aquanim wrote:On March 08 2014 10:47 geript wrote:
1 game ban for first offense is standard. Even if you don't like it that standard has been set a few times and multiple people have gotten off with less. Moc should be 1 game not more. There's "offences" and then there's "posting your role PM in the thread". Again, people have done the same or similar things before. They got 1 game. It's unfair for him to get more. Well then, whoever gave that duration of ban before screwed up, and I'm setting a more appropriate precedent. Giving the same duration of ban to, say, a newbie who forgets to vote and to somebody who deliberately modkills themselves is kind of ridiculous. Part of the reason for my leniency compared to Iamp is that he didn't completely ruin the game, just modkilled a single VT. If he'd outed his entire scumteam or some shit, then we'd be talking a perm.
No. What you're doing is completely ignoring precedents which have been sent. I did it. 1 game ban. VE did it (hell he even pm'd a dead player his role pm). 1 game ban. Mocsta modkilling himself had no effect on this game whatsoever. You modkilling me for absolutely no reason and selectively enforcing your own rules against people you don't like and for people you do had a major impact on this game. If you hadn't decided to be a failmod, then town could've won or scum could've won or who knows. But YOUR decisions in this game had far more impact than anything else on the outcome.
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On March 08 2014 10:58 Foolishness wrote:
For the record, I'm not at all bothered by such a statement made in game (though I'm also more lax about bad behavior than most). It's one thing to be playing in a mafia game, get into a heated moment, and say something you don't mean and an entirely another thing to actually do something like modkilling a player in a game because you don't like him. At least, I'm 99.9% sure even if he was playing in Geript's game Geript would not have modkilled him. Mafia gets heated, and when people are heated they may say and do stupid stuff in the game, but the majority of the time it stays in the game (and when it doesn't they are banned).
One point I want to make. After the complete failure of moderation, I did want to retroactively modkill and ban everyone in my game. Or completely afk. Or completely make it unwinnable for town. I didn't do any of that, because not only is it a complete dumbass decision; more importantly, I'm not that much of an asshole. I want things to be fair and right. So yah, even if Holyflare had been in that game, no way there would've been any action against him because that's not how I work.
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No. What you're doing is completely ignoring precedents which have been sent. I did it. 1 game ban. VE did it (hell he even pm'd a dead player his role pm). 1 game ban.
You are entirely correct. I am ignoring precedent and enforcing what I believe is a reasonable consequence for his actions. The Ban List is not determined by case law.
...selectively enforcing your own rules against people you don't like and for people you do had a major impact on this game
This is slander. If I could not enforce my rules impartially with regard to you I would not have allowed you to play in the first place. It is, in fact, a large part of why I will not allow you (among others) to play any game I run in the future, as I do not believe that AFTER this game I could judge you impartially.
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On March 08 2014 14:10 geript wrote:Show nested quote +On March 08 2014 10:58 Foolishness wrote:
For the record, I'm not at all bothered by such a statement made in game (though I'm also more lax about bad behavior than most). It's one thing to be playing in a mafia game, get into a heated moment, and say something you don't mean and an entirely another thing to actually do something like modkilling a player in a game because you don't like him. At least, I'm 99.9% sure even if he was playing in Geript's game Geript would not have modkilled him. Mafia gets heated, and when people are heated they may say and do stupid stuff in the game, but the majority of the time it stays in the game (and when it doesn't they are banned). One point I want to make. After the complete failure of moderation, I did want to retroactively modkill and ban everyone in my game. Or completely afk. Or completely make it unwinnable for town. I didn't do any of that, because not only is it a complete dumbass decision; more importantly, I'm not that much of an asshole. I want things to be fair and right. So yah, even if Holyflare had been in that game, no way there would've been any action against him because that's not how I work.
Well, if that's the case, why did you say it in the first place? Because the only rational answer I can find is "To affect the outcome of Cultured Mini Mafia by leveraging your position as a host of PYP". And that is unacceptable under my rules.
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On March 08 2014 12:02 Toadesstern wrote:
I don't know the situation but sounds like a warning if it had no real influence on the game and a ban if it did, so yes.
On March 08 2014 12:04 Keirathi wrote:
Again, asking for bans isn't some black-or-white thing. Would a warning be more appropriate than a ban? Etc.
Basically, I think that (almost?) anything in a game that is modkill worthy is at least warning worthy. Ban worthy? Probably more on a case-by-case basis and how egregious the offense is and if the host wants to push it.
Look, here's the bottom line for me. People make mistakes. I personally, as a few other I think have also, that the modkill was an awful decision. Other than one bad post to Toadestern, I felt like I was quite amenable during the game. It's Aquanim's position that I was "toxic" to town. If that were the case, then he 100% should have let me know how and where before he modkilled me for bs reasons. More importantly, you should also look at the lead up to that situation. Scum pushed complete BS on D2 and D3 and the donkey town 100% bought into it and believe him. Literally no one listened to me the whole game. I made multiple attempts to try and understand other players viewpoints, decisions, etc. No one put in more time into that game than I did I can 100% assure you of that even to the extent that it decreased the "fun" and "flavor" level of my game (PYP) because of how much time it sucked up. So him saying that I was the cause of all of the negativity is 100% unfair and wrong. On top of that, he made an awful decision which changed how the game ended up. If I were to randomly modkill a player in my PYP game for stupid reasoning, then I would 100% expect people to tell me to shove it when I request a ban for that player. That's the situation here. Hosts requesting or pushing for bans shouldn't be the primary reason for people receiving a ban. A player breaking (or being perceived to break) a rule isn't automatically modkill worthy or ban worthy. This case was a far from egregious offense (although Holyflare really should be policy lynched in the future because of how good he is at scum) and the request for a ban is just crazy.
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On March 08 2014 14:16 Aquanim wrote:Show nested quote +No. What you're doing is completely ignoring precedents which have been sent. I did it. 1 game ban. VE did it (hell he even pm'd a dead player his role pm). 1 game ban. You are entirely correct. I am ignoring precedent and enforcing what I believe is a reasonable consequence for his actions. The Ban List is not determined by case law. Show nested quote +...selectively enforcing your own rules against people you don't like and for people you do had a major impact on this game This is slander. If I could not enforce my rules impartially with regard to you I would not have allowed you to play in the first place. It is, in fact, a large part of why I will not allow you (among others) to play any game I run in the future, as I do not believe that AFTER this game I could judge you impartially.
You could not and did not in this game. I specifically made every possible attempt to follow your rules to the letter of the law. I even made special attempt to cut down on the cursing (as can be shown by the number of fraks and shazazzles). Other than one specific lapse which I personally notified you of and didn't give a flying frak what you did about because it was over the line, I followed your rules. I literally can't understand how you can take any of what I said as a "threat."
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On March 08 2014 14:32 geript wrote:Show nested quote +On March 08 2014 14:16 Aquanim wrote:No. What you're doing is completely ignoring precedents which have been sent. I did it. 1 game ban. VE did it (hell he even pm'd a dead player his role pm). 1 game ban. You are entirely correct. I am ignoring precedent and enforcing what I believe is a reasonable consequence for his actions. The Ban List is not determined by case law. ...selectively enforcing your own rules against people you don't like and for people you do had a major impact on this game This is slander. If I could not enforce my rules impartially with regard to you I would not have allowed you to play in the first place. It is, in fact, a large part of why I will not allow you (among others) to play any game I run in the future, as I do not believe that AFTER this game I could judge you impartially. You could not and did not in this game. I specifically made every possible attempt to follow your rules to the letter of the law. I even made special attempt to cut down on the cursing (as can be shown by the number of fraks and shazazzles). Other than one specific lapse which I personally notified you of and didn't give a flying frak what you did about because it was over the line, I followed your rules. I literally can't understand how you can take any of what I said as a "threat."
Now see, when I asked you to cut down on the swearwords I expected you to behave in a more reasonable manner towards the other players in the game, not to just hide it behind misspellings.
And see, that's exactly the problem: your posting for most of the game followed the *letter* of my laws, but not the *spirit*.
As for it being only my opinion that you were unpleasant to play with in this game:
On March 06 2014 14:35 TheChyz wrote:Show nested quote +On March 06 2014 14:15 geript wrote:
You know whatever. You want to be an ass then be an ass. I've tried too many times to get you to actually try and do something.
I can't even tell you how badly I want to get myself mod killed just as a big fuck you HF. Instead I'm going to do exactly what I said. I'm going to write a huge ass case on why you're scum. That way scum will take you to endgame for an easy freebie lynch. If you're town, you deserve to lose the game. Like 100%. You're scummy as hell. Have been the whole game. I think everybody agrees this is how they feel about you, kinda ironic coming from you lol. Having trouble with someone playing like an ass? Join the club, going 3 days strong.
On February 28 2014 08:06 WaveofShadow wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2014 07:58 geript wrote:On February 28 2014 07:52 Vivax wrote:
Can you tell me what your problem is? One I think Mocs town. I've completely forgotten why exactly now but I didn't really like any of your points. Plus like toad is way scummier. Phonepost Ill tell you what: I think this may warrant another look for next lynch, but your playstyle is completelyy turrning me and everyone else off from listening to you. Can you be a prodcutive member of town and help us out with this lynch?
Disclaimer: I don't claim everybody found your posting unpleasant, and I also don't claim I've quoted everyone who did.
As I see it, the style of your posting was the reason that your point of view in the thread did not get much attention, whether it was right or wrong. You have nobody but yourself to blame for that.
EDIT: I still say that you're full of shit when you claim that my moderation was influenced by my opinion of players which I brought into the game. I assure you I'd have modkilled Rayn if that was true.
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11589 Posts
I hope the ban goes through. I like geript, but the whole point of hosting changes is to set a NEW precedent about behavior. I agree that geript crossed a line.
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On March 08 2014 14:44 Aquanim wrote:
As I see it, the style of your posting was the reason that your point of view in the thread did not get much attention, whether it was right or wrong. You have nobody but yourself to blame for that.
No the reason why I wasn't listened to is because nobody actually read or thought about my posts ever. I explained each and every read with reasoning. I can't and won't repost each and every read everytime someone tries to lynch my townread. It's a waste of time and even when I did, nobody listened. People didn't listen because they didn't bother playing or thinking (or were incapable of doing one or the other). I can't fix that. Nobody can.
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On March 08 2014 15:01 geript wrote:Show nested quote +On March 08 2014 14:44 Aquanim wrote:
As I see it, the style of your posting was the reason that your point of view in the thread did not get much attention, whether it was right or wrong. You have nobody but yourself to blame for that. No the reason why I wasn't listened to is because nobody actually read or thought about my posts ever. I explained each and every read with reasoning. I can't and won't repost each and every read everytime someone tries to lynch my townread. It's a waste of time and even when I did, nobody listened. People didn't listen because they didn't bother playing or thinking (or were incapable of doing one or the other). I can't fix that. Nobody can.
Well, I can't dissuade you of that point of view and it's not relevant to the issue at hand in any case.
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man the ban list is optimal for using only at the absolute last resort when theres nothing at all you can do to improve a situation or player of your own powers.. If your just racking up modkills to hand over to gmarsh post game then your fucking doing it wrong.
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On March 08 2014 14:07 geript wrote:Show nested quote +On March 08 2014 10:55 Aquanim wrote:On March 08 2014 10:52 Coagulation wrote:On October 09 2013 07:03 GMarshal wrote:On October 08 2013 11:29 Meapak_Ziphh wrote:
TL Noir bans
1 game for both geript visceraeyes, as geript stated, he got himself modkilled. VE did the same thing and also PM'd people his alignment. Approved :D geript is sitting out Hogwarts atm, he should PM me when its over so I can remove him VE, remember to sit something out please ^_^ VE did the exact same thing as mocst and everyone was like oh ok 1 game ban and that was that. you guys need to stop cherry picking shit. On March 08 2014 10:52 geript wrote:On March 08 2014 10:48 Aquanim wrote:On March 08 2014 10:47 geript wrote:
1 game ban for first offense is standard. Even if you don't like it that standard has been set a few times and multiple people have gotten off with less. Moc should be 1 game not more. There's "offences" and then there's "posting your role PM in the thread". Again, people have done the same or similar things before. They got 1 game. It's unfair for him to get more. Well then, whoever gave that duration of ban before screwed up, and I'm setting a more appropriate precedent. Giving the same duration of ban to, say, a newbie who forgets to vote and to somebody who deliberately modkills themselves is kind of ridiculous. Part of the reason for my leniency compared to Iamp is that he didn't completely ruin the game, just modkilled a single VT. If he'd outed his entire scumteam or some shit, then we'd be talking a perm. No. What you're doing is completely ignoring precedents which have been sent. I did it. 1 game ban. VE did it (hell he even pm'd a dead player his role pm). 1 game ban. Mocsta modkilling himself had no effect on this game whatsoever. You modkilling me for absolutely no reason and selectively enforcing your own rules against people you don't like and for people you do had a major impact on this game. If you hadn't decided to be a failmod, then town could've won or scum could've won or who knows. But YOUR decisions in this game had far more impact than anything else on the outcome. This is very valid.
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On March 08 2014 15:37 Mocsta wrote:Show nested quote +On March 08 2014 14:07 geript wrote:On March 08 2014 10:55 Aquanim wrote:On March 08 2014 10:52 Coagulation wrote:On October 09 2013 07:03 GMarshal wrote:On October 08 2013 11:29 Meapak_Ziphh wrote:
TL Noir bans
1 game for both geript visceraeyes, as geript stated, he got himself modkilled. VE did the same thing and also PM'd people his alignment. Approved :D geript is sitting out Hogwarts atm, he should PM me when its over so I can remove him VE, remember to sit something out please ^_^ VE did the exact same thing as mocst and everyone was like oh ok 1 game ban and that was that. you guys need to stop cherry picking shit. On March 08 2014 10:52 geript wrote:On March 08 2014 10:48 Aquanim wrote:On March 08 2014 10:47 geript wrote:
1 game ban for first offense is standard. Even if you don't like it that standard has been set a few times and multiple people have gotten off with less. Moc should be 1 game not more. There's "offences" and then there's "posting your role PM in the thread". Again, people have done the same or similar things before. They got 1 game. It's unfair for him to get more. Well then, whoever gave that duration of ban before screwed up, and I'm setting a more appropriate precedent. Giving the same duration of ban to, say, a newbie who forgets to vote and to somebody who deliberately modkills themselves is kind of ridiculous. Part of the reason for my leniency compared to Iamp is that he didn't completely ruin the game, just modkilled a single VT. If he'd outed his entire scumteam or some shit, then we'd be talking a perm. No. What you're doing is completely ignoring precedents which have been sent. I did it. 1 game ban. VE did it (hell he even pm'd a dead player his role pm). 1 game ban. Mocsta modkilling himself had no effect on this game whatsoever. You modkilling me for absolutely no reason and selectively enforcing your own rules against people you don't like and for people you do had a major impact on this game. If you hadn't decided to be a failmod, then town could've won or scum could've won or who knows. But YOUR decisions in this game had far more impact than anything else on the outcome. This is very valid.
Not sure if srs... if you hadn't been modkilled and Geript had, town would still have had a mislynch at the end there.
Furthermore, I won't not enforce my rules simply because of the impact modkilling somebody would have on the game. Even if Geript had been the last scum, or if modkilling him had moved directly to endgame, my decision would not have been affected by those conditions. To do otherwise would mean that players could in fact become "modconfirmed" by whether or not I moderate their actions - and that I won't have.
EDIT : And are you both seriously contending that me deciding that a single vanilla townie should be modkilled had a larger effect on the game than Vivax' vigilante shot on scum, a scum lynch day 1, or Holyflare's sterling scum play? Because that's both hilariously untrue and an insult to Holyflare's play.
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ban list gets more ridiculous every time. Do we come here to play mafia or to prevent people from playing mafia?
SMH.
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That being said it's kind of funny how many times geript gets banned. Is this the third ban in a row?
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Aquanim why are you not pushing a ban for gumshoe for unacceptable behavior? Because i happen to know if i had said what gumshoe said to me for any player in the game you had 100% modkilled me and if you are saying you hadn't you are lying. You are treating people differently based on if you like them or not and that's not acceptable behavior as a host. Also i was shocked by your "well NOW he's modconfirmed" comment in obs QT after you modkilled geript because that's just pure fucking BS and backs up my statement before.
Nothing geript did is banworthy, see marv's post. If you are banning him for wanting to policy lynch someone in future games and that's how you read your rules you should also ban people who wanted to policy lynch in this game because that is not a "current game related comment", it's based on past games, or ban people using meta, as it's based on "not current game". Threatening someone with something that can't be done in the first place can't possibly be a threat.
I don't think Mocsta should get more than 1 game ban. Maybe it's just my personal preference but while i did nothing inappropriate i feel bad for him. Obviously a game ban but i would not give two games since people have done the same violation before and got only one game and while Mocsta has done the same thing before it was before the ban's were nullified or whatever happened. Anyways i am not here to argue about this and i trust people's judgement on Mocsta-issue as it was a clear rule violation.
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On March 08 2014 16:13 raynpelikoneet wrote:
Aquanim why are you not pushing a ban for gumshoe for unacceptable behavior? Because i happen to know if i had said what gumshoe said to me for any player in the game you had 100% modkilled me and if you are saying you hadn't you are lying.
Quote the post in question and say which of my rules he broke, or stop wasting my time. You're making ridiculous allegations without proof.
EDIT: I believe this is the post you're referring to. Gumshoe expressed frusturation with your play, and brought up that there is a previous trend in your play to be absolutely certain about things and to be wrong. Whether that's true or not, he was trying to make an argument relevant to the outcome of the game. Yes he swore some and was angry, but that's not against the rules and I would not have modkilled anyone for it. If that trend had continued and the thread had descended into flaming I would have privately asked people to behave themselves. (I was in fact asleep at the time, so Balla responded by issuing a general warning in the thread.)
Honestly I think that between the axe you have to grind with me, and the fact that Gumshoe's post was talking disparagingly about you, your view of this post is inaccurate.
You are treating people differently based on if you like them or not and that's not acceptable behavior as a host.
Once again, bullshit. It is true that the people I like will tend not to break my rules, and the people I don't like will be more likely to break them. The ENTIRE POINT of enforcing those rules was so that I could run a game for people who play in such a way that it is worth my time to moderate them.
Also i was shocked by your "well NOW he's modconfirmed" comment in obs QT after you modkilled geript because that's just pure fucking BS and backs up my statement before.
I don't even know what your problem is with this.
Nothing geript did is banworthy, see marv's post.
Marv doesn't think that my rules have any place on the forum. That's his opinion, and it's irrelevant. Under my rules it was modkillable and hence banworthy.
If you are banning him for wanting to policy lynch someone in future games and that's how you read your rules you should also ban people who wanted to policy lynch in this game because that is not a "current game related comment", it's based on past games, or ban people using meta, as it's based on "not current game".
I knew somebody would try this argument... Using meta is in fact relevant to the current game, since by looking at somebody's play in past games you can make conclusions about their play in the current game, which are useful to the outcome of the current game. Saying that you will policy lynch someone in future games because you don't like how they're playing in the current game is attempting to inflict out-of-game consequences on somebody for their actions in the current game, and as such is against my rules.
I don't think Mocsta should get more than 1 game ban. Maybe it's just my personal preference but while i did nothing inappropriate i feel bad for him. Obviously a game ban but i would not give two games since people have done the same violation before and got only one game and while Mocsta has done the same thing before it was before the ban's were nullified or whatever happened. Anyways i am not here to argue about this and i trust people's judgement on Mocsta-issue as it was a clear rule violation.
To be honest I feel bad for Mocsta too, but deliberately getting yourself modkilled is a greater offence than screwing up something by mistake and I believe the consequences should reflect that.
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Yeah in hindsight, I should have replaced out. Thought didnt occur to me at the time.
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EPT
