EPTOn August 20 2013 07:19 Ace wrote:
All my games are balanced
Ok maybe not Death Factory Mafia
All my games are balanced
Ok maybe not Death Factory Mafia
I still regret not shooting the guy next to me.
also fuck instant majority, that mode sucks.
TL Mafia Polls - Page 4
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wherebugsgo
Japan10647 Posts
I still regret not shooting the guy next to me. also fuck instant majority, that mode sucks. | ||
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kitaman27
United States9245 Posts
I've listed five different mini game setups. Mafia kp is fixed at 1. Plurality lynch. Semi-Open. Identify the setup that is least balanced in your opinion and the setup that is the closest to perfect balance. Feel free to suggest tweaks to improve the setup. Also pick the setup that you would be most interested in playing and least interested in playing. Setup A 1 Roleblocker 2 Goons 1 Medic 1 Detective 7 VT Setup B 3 Goons 9 VT Setup C 1 Roleblocker 1 Framer 1 Goon 1 Medic 1 Detective 1 Vigilante 6 VT Setup D 1 Roleblocker 2 Goons 1 Medic 1 Vigilante 7 VT Setup E 1 Godfather 1 Roleblocker 1 Goon 1 Serial Killer (Compulsive shot, choice of Cover or 1-shot Bulletproof) 1 Jailer 1 Detective 1 Vigilante 1 Miller 5 VT Note: All factional kp may be roleblocked in this setup Poll: Which setup is the least balanced? Setup C (6) Setup E (4) Setup A (2) Setup D (2) Setup B (1) All setups are adequately balanced within reason (55/45 or better) (0) 15 total votes Your vote: Which setup is the least balanced? (Vote): Setup A Poll: Which setup is the most balanced? Setup B (6) Setup D (5) Setup E (1) Setup A (0) Setup C (0) All setups have glaring balance issues (65/35 or worse) (0) 12 total votes Your vote: Which setup is the most balanced? (Vote): Setup A Poll: Which setup would you be most interested in playing? Setup E (6) Setup B (2) Setup C (2) Setup A (0) Setup D (0) 10 total votes Your vote: Which setup would you be most interested in playing? (Vote): Setup A Poll: Which setup would you be least interested in playing? Setup B (5) Setup A (3) Setup E (1) Setup C (0) Setup D (0) 9 total votes Your vote: Which setup would you be least interested in playing? (Vote): Setup A | ||
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Hapahauli
United States9305 Posts
That being said... Least Balanced is Setup A by far. Medic + Doctor is so absurdly town-favored without any way to contest the accuracy of checks. Most Balanced is Setup D. Medic + Vigi is a balanced combo, though I'd prefer a jailkeeper in place of the medic instead. Most Interested in Playing would be Setup B. I quite like the mountainous setups - minimalist but fun. Least Interested in Playing would be Setup A. Cops in minis are absurdly imbalanced, and more so when there's no way to screw with their checks. | ||
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Dandel Ion
Austria17960 Posts
B and D are the only setups I'd consider truly balanced in the most literal sense (very close to 50/50), C is meh, E and A are less balanced. Although even those are in the ~60/40 area, which is fine. Well E is more like 50/45/5 if you want to split hairs. | ||
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VayneAuthority
United States8983 Posts
most balanced is B because you will get closest to 50/50 since there are no PRs to get weird results by chance. wait I misread C...setup C is just setup D but even more town sided. do the same thing I just said but now you have a detective on the side getting checks quietly C is worse | ||
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kitaman27
United States9245 Posts
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HiroPro
United States2624 Posts
 Are the setups open/semi-open/closed? What kind of roles are possible? Do notifications exist? | ||
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kitaman27
United States9245 Posts
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HiroPro
United States2624 Posts
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Clarity_nl
Netherlands6826 Posts
On August 27 2013 07:01 HiroPro wrote: Well what do you consider standard? Would possible mafia vigilantes/non-compulsive serial killers for example be standard? I've seen this discussion before on these forums. It doesn't end well. edit: in that same thread the question was asked "if someone hosts a normal game, with a twist, should it be hosted under the [N] tag or the [T] tag", did we ever come to a consensus on that? | ||
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HiroPro
United States2624 Posts
 I don't think there was any consensus. | ||
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Clarity_nl
Netherlands6826 Posts
Specifically I've had my eye on the "ascetic" modifier for some blues (ascetic roleblocks anyone that targets them with a night ability like medic or cop check), but had some other ideas pop in mind from time to time also backup roles. (e.g. backup cop only gets to check people if the cop has died) I think both of these modifiers would be great to fine tune a reasonably balanced setup | ||
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WaveofShadow
Canada31495 Posts
On August 27 2013 06:13 Hapahauli wrote: Balance is incredibly subjective. It's entirely based on player-skill and/or site meta as opposed to some universal truth. That being said... Least Balanced is Setup A by far. Medic + Doctor is so absurdly town-favored without any way to contest the accuracy of checks. Most Balanced is Setup D. Medic + Vigi is a balanced combo, though I'd prefer a jailkeeper in place of the medic instead. Most Interested in Playing would be Setup B. I quite like the mountainous setups - minimalist but fun. Least Interested in Playing would be Setup A. Cops in minis are absurdly imbalanced, and more so when there's no way to screw with their checks. I agree with this though I'd say setup A and C are fairly equally imbalanced. | ||
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Ace
United States16096 Posts
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kitaman27
United States9245 Posts
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marvellosity
United Kingdom36161 Posts
On August 27 2013 22:08 kitaman27 wrote: I'll make the argument against the all vanilla setup since it is currently winning poll number two. The assumption that setup B is balanced relies on the assumption that 3 mafia vs 9 town is balanced. In an all vanilla setup with 12 players, the game is going to always end when a faction pulls off three successful lynches. Based on the mechanics of how the mafia and town work, it is clearly unfair that they must meet the same objective. Mafia have the benefit of knowing the identities of their allies and they have the benefit of the nightly kp, which cannot be prevented. Blue roles serve to make up for the factional advantage the mafia has. I believe the all vanilla setup has been run 7-8 times on TL and while this is definitely too small of a sample size, I don't recall a game where town has ever won. It's possible to make the argument that the all vanilla setup isn't well balanced, it's just the most balanced out of the five listed. I'm guessing a near vanilla setup would probably be the fairest in theory. It's just the fact, I guess, that vanilla setups aren't "swingy" 10 VT vs 3 goons is a much better setup than 9v3, imo | ||
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Clarity_nl
Netherlands6826 Posts
Maybe something in the middle of that is even better? 8 vt 1 (1-2shot?) doc 3 goons? It makes it so that if the doc doesnt save scum still wins in 3 mislynches, but if doc does make a save scum require 4 mislynches. I guess what I didn't think of is that if the doc saves someone they can claim the protect and confirm two townies.... scum can't counterclaim that. Hmmm | ||
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kitaman27
United States9245 Posts
On August 27 2013 22:10 marvellosity wrote: It's just the fact, I guess, that vanilla setups aren't "swingy" 10 VT vs 3 goons is a much better setup than 9v3, imo 7 VT vs 5 goons isn't very swingy either, but that doesn't mean it's fair. | ||
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marvellosity
United Kingdom36161 Posts
Balanced setups shouldn't be too hard for minis, imo. Not too many blues so the game isn't too swingy, and work out how many mislynches/lynches are needed and how many saves etc. changes this number, what the worst/best case scenario is etc. | ||
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kitaman27
United States9245 Posts
I know at least 3 other sites keep some time of log of past games. I wonder if we would be able to build up a large enough sample size to take a look at mini setup win rates. | ||
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