Since our mafia general discussion thread is so rarely bumped, I've decided to create this thread in an attempt to create a weekly discussion topic that may include setup discussion, post game analysis, or whatever random idea I come up with. Plus polls are always entertaining! I'll try to come up with a new poll every week to be discussed, but you're welcome to provide suggestions for a topic you'd like to see.
Featured Poll:
Poll: Have you ever fell victim to the Mafia Ban List?
No, my record is squeaky clean. (20)
83%
Yes, I received a behavioral ban that was well deserved. (2)
8%
Yes, I received an activity ban that was well deserved. (1)
4%
Yes, but I disagree that my play was ban worthy. (1)
4%
24 total votes
Your vote: Have you ever fell victim to the Mafia Ban List?
(Vote): No, my record is squeaky clean. (Vote): Yes, I received an activity ban that was well deserved. (Vote): Yes, I received a behavioral ban that was well deserved. (Vote): Yes, but I disagree that my play was ban worthy.
Very important. I prefer that the game has gone through dry runs and is reviewed by multiple people (14)
56%
Somewhat important. 70/30 balance is acceptable if the setup is interesting or everyone gets a role (9)
36%
Extremely important. I will only play setups that are proven to be balanced over a large sample size (1)
4%
Irrelevant. I'd join a game that was completely broken as long as it was entertaining. (1)
4%
25 total votes
Your vote: How important is game balance to you?
(Vote): Extremely important. I will only play setups that are proven to be balanced over a large sample size (Vote): Very important. I prefer that the game has gone through dry runs and is reviewed by multiple people (Vote): Somewhat important. 70/30 balance is acceptable if the setup is interesting or everyone gets a role (Vote): Irrelevant. I'd join a game that was completely broken as long as it was entertaining.
Poll: What is the biggest factor in determining to join a game?
Availiblity; My schedule often prevents me from playing mafia. (9)
39%
Setup; I prefer to play setups that are interesting or not too crazy. (7)
30%
Size; Large games are just too difficult to keep up with. (4)
17%
Players; I enjoy playing with a certain group or I will refuse to play with a certain player. (3)
13%
Hosts; I will only join games where the host has a reputation for being experienced and fair. (0)
0%
23 total votes
Your vote: What is the biggest factor in determining to join a game?
(Vote): Availiblity; My schedule often prevents me from playing mafia. (Vote): Size; Large games are just too difficult to keep up with. (Vote): Setup; I prefer to play setups that are interesting or not too crazy. (Vote): Hosts; I will only join games where the host has a reputation for being experienced and fair. (Vote): Players; I enjoy playing with a certain group or I will refuse to play with a certain player.
Poll: What is your prefered deadline time?
8 PM EDT to 11 PM EDT (12)
50%
4 PM EDT to 7 PM EDT (8)
33%
4 AM EDT to 7 AM EDT (2)
8%
12 AM EDT to 3 AM EDT (1)
4%
8 AM EDT to 11 AM EDT (1)
4%
12 PM EDT to 3 PM EDT (0)
0%
24 total votes
Your vote: What is your prefered deadline time?
(Vote): 4 PM EDT to 7 PM EDT (Vote): 8 PM EDT to 11 PM EDT (Vote): 12 AM EDT to 3 AM EDT (Vote): 4 AM EDT to 7 AM EDT (Vote): 8 AM EDT to 11 AM EDT (Vote): 12 PM EDT to 3 PM EDT
Poll: Should directly quoting non-host PMs and quicktopic logs be allowed?
No, but paraphrasing should be allowed (10)
59%
No, the conversation should remain seperate from the thread (3)
18%
Yes, there should be no restrictions (2)
12%
Yes, but time stamps should be excluded (2)
12%
17 total votes
Your vote: Should directly quoting non-host PMs and quicktopic logs be allowed?
(Vote): Yes, there should be no restrictions (Vote): Yes, but time stamps should be excluded (Vote): No, but paraphrasing should be allowed (Vote): No, the conversation should remain seperate from the thread
Poll: On a scale of 1-10, how would you rate your abilities as town?
7 (6)
27%
8 (4)
18%
10 (4)
18%
1 (2)
9%
3 (2)
9%
6 (2)
9%
4 (1)
5%
5 (1)
5%
2 (0)
0%
9 (0)
0%
22 total votes
Your vote: On a scale of 1-10, how would you rate your abilities as town?
(Vote): From another mafia site (Vote): From the TL sidebar (Vote): From the Sports and Games Sticky (Vote): From a friend on Teamliquid (Vote): From a real life friend (Vote): From a TL blog
Poll: What is your opinion on the state of post-game analysis?
I'd prefer more structured player specific analysis (10)
53%
I'd prefer more structured game specific analysis (6)
32%
I'd prefer more unstructured analysis (2)
11%
I believe there is a sufficient amount of post-game content (1)
5%
I'd prefer more structured setup specific analysis (0)
0%
19 total votes
Your vote: What is your opinion on the state of post-game analysis?
(Vote): I'd prefer more structured game specific analysis (Vote): I'd prefer more structured player specific analysis (Vote): I'd prefer more structured setup specific analysis (Vote): I'd prefer more unstructured analysis (Vote): I believe there is a sufficient amount of post-game content
Poll: Would you be interested in playing a Resistance game?
Yes (15)
56%
What is Resistance? (7)
26%
No (4)
15%
As a voice game (1)
4%
27 total votes
Your vote: Would you be interested in playing a Resistance game?
(Vote): Yes (Vote): No (Vote): What is Resistance? (Vote): As a voice game
Poll: What is your opinion on players with a high post-count playstyle?
I'm capable of following the thread if it's within reason (<100 posts/5 filter pages per cycle) (8)
36%
I'm fine with it as long as they don't go overboard (<200 posts/10 filter pages per cycle) (7)
32%
I simply can't keep up and prefer a post count restriction (<50 posts/3 filter pages per cycle) (4)
18%
I have no issue with players making an unlimited number of posts (3)
14%
22 total votes
Your vote: What is your opinion on players with a high post-count playstyle?
(Vote): I have no issue with players making an unlimited number of posts (Vote): I'm fine with it as long as they don't go overboard (<200 posts/10 filter pages per cycle) (Vote): I'm capable of following the thread if it's within reason (<100 posts/5 filter pages per cycle) (Vote): I simply can't keep up and prefer a post count restriction (<50 posts/3 filter pages per cycle)
Poll: Should behavioral modkills be enfoced at the expense of game balance?
Yes, it should be clear that certain behaviors are unacceptable even if their death ruins the game (19)
76%
Yes, but only in extreme cases where a player is totally out of line (5)
20%
No, behavioral modkills are dumb and people need to learn be less offended (1)
4%
No, people should put up with it for the sake of the game and players should be punished postgame (0)
0%
25 total votes
Your vote: Should behavioral modkills be enfoced at the expense of game balance?
(Vote): Yes, it should be clear that certain behaviors are unacceptable even if their death ruins the game (Vote): Yes, but only in extreme cases where a player is totally out of line (Vote): No, people should put up with it for the sake of the game and players should be punished postgame (Vote): No, behavioral modkills are dumb and people need to learn be less offended
Poll: What is your favorite alternative to forum mafia?
In Person Mafia (5)
22%
Voice Mafia (5)
22%
IRC Mafia (5)
22%
I'm only interested in forum mafia (4)
17%
Video Mafia (3)
13%
Starcraft Mafia (1)
4%
23 total votes
Your vote: What is your favorite alternative to forum mafia?
(Vote): In Person Mafia (Vote): Video Mafia (Vote): Voice Mafia (Vote): IRC Mafia (Vote): Starcraft Mafia (Vote): I'm only interested in forum mafia
Poll: How important is it to you to be considered the best mafia player?
I don't care about other's opinions of my abilities (7)
28%
I'm content with being considered among the top group of players (6)
24%
I want to be the very best, like no one ever was (5)
20%
I'm happy as long as I'm improving every game (4)
16%
I wish this was the case, but I know it isn't a realisitic goal (3)
12%
25 total votes
Your vote: How important is it to you to be considered the best mafia player?
(Vote): I want to be the very best, like no one ever was (Vote): I'm content with being considered among the top group of players (Vote): I'm happy as long as I'm improving every game (Vote): I wish this was the case, but I know it isn't a realisitic goal (Vote): I don't care about other's opinions of my abilities
Poll: Do you use the TL Mafia Database when playing mafia?
Yes, I use the player history and filter links all the time (7)
47%
Sometimes, although usually I just use the TL search function (4)
27%
Rarely, although I don't spend much time looking at past games (3)
20%
Huh? (1)
7%
15 total votes
Your vote: Do you use the TL Mafia Database when playing mafia?
(Vote): Yes, I use the player history and filter links all the time (Vote): Sometimes, although usually I just use the TL search function (Vote): Rarely, although I don't spend much time looking at past games (Vote): Huh?
Poll: How important is flavor text for roles and night posts?
Somewhat important. It's nice to have, but I wouldn't mind a night post with only the flip. (10)
48%
Not Important. I don't even read it most of the time. (9)
43%
Very important. It should be a requirement for all hosts. (2)
10%
21 total votes
Your vote: How important is flavor text for roles and night posts?
(Vote): Very important. It should be a requirement for all hosts. (Vote): Somewhat important. It's nice to have, but I wouldn't mind a night post with only the flip. (Vote): Not Important. I don't even read it most of the time.
I voted mafia, although I suspect that town will win by a fair margin. While playing mafia is usually more stressful, I find the high points of being successful as mafia more enjoyable than pulling off a good lynch or night action as town. I think there is a greater opportunity to strategize and plan things out as scum and you generally have a larger impact on the outcome of the game. As town, playing well usually results in your death and the game is suddenly out of your control. I also enjoy the ability to talk things through with scum buddies where you know you share the same win condition. As town, I feel there is less diversity in your play since you generally look for the same type of things, unless it is a more unique setup. Rather than spending the majority of my time looking through other's posts to determine their alignment, I prefer to spend time on my own posts to push my own goals. One thing I do enjoy more as town, is that I feel more comfortable stepping away from the thread for a longer period of time and then returning with a larger contribution. As mafia, I often feel obligated to read every post as its made, which can be very time consuming. I've only played third party once, but things were awful lonely. I think third party players often fall into the trap of playing lazy since nobody else is relying on them to perform well.
Playing mafia is really hilarious, I wish I would roll it more often cause I'm still noob at playing it.
As town I have to work much more, afaik. It's more of "grinding the thread", finding evidence, convincing people, then get killed for it lol. You can do all sort of crazy shit as mafia, and have fun watching townies smash their heads in, but it needs a lot of initative to play it well, it also gets harder while the game progresses.
Third party all the way. I like only having to rely on myself to win. No one else to answer to and no one to do something dumb except for me. I like being my own team in control of my own fate.
edit: I would say that I agree with kita in that I enjoy talking to/working with team-mates, and finally winning with mafia feels really good. Just the in-thread process of getting there is so hard :/
Voting town. I prefer town because I enjoy trying to solve the puzzle. As mafia I still haven't figured out what puzzle I'm trying to solve (that works for me, specifically).
I'm not a huge detective fan since I prefer some degree of ambiguity with an investigative role. Framers and millers usually seem to punish a bad check with a mislynch, rather than force the detective to consider an invalid check. Modifying the sanity probably works better to solve this issue, but that has some problems of its own.
Parity cops have been really popular lately. I like that the usefulness of the checks are delayed, but the double target version of the role that we've been seeing is quite powerful. The single target version of the role provides less options, but it a lot easier to balance around.
Role cops are interesting when the role doesn't correlate with alignment and they are great with dealing with fake claims, but I prefer to see them on the mafia side of things.
I'm a bit biased against trackers due to Insane Mafia where I was told my tracker role was called a watcher and I didn't know better. They're great to fake claim and incriminate annoying serial killers though
Watchers are my favorite of the investigative roles since they serve as a deterrent to shoot priority targets and selecting who to target is a bit more interesting. Plus, they come with great stories if the watcher happens to be a crime fighting superhero.
Watchers are my favorite of the investigative roles since they serve as a deterrent to shoot priority targets and selecting who to target is a bit more interesting. Plus, they come with great stories if the watcher happens to be a crime fighting superhero.
I like tracker but with a caveat. If its a town tracker I would hope the mafia KP is observable ( not factional) even if it means it still couldn't be roleblocked.
Tracker is my favorite in a game that uses it correctly. (Having a certain person on the team that delivers the kill)
it is also more ambiguous then cop and creates more #bigplays since scum can fake claim other power roles and stuff instead of just being like, you're scum, no im miller blah blah blah.
I was tracker once, and scum framed my (town) target so I saw him visit the dead guy and I misslynched him D2 and town lost...
...so yeah Parity Cop please (never got it though)
Tracker also sucks because you have like 60% chance to target a VT and get squat, maybe every single night. Works best in themed games with lots of visits and shit.
On August 06 2013 13:00 gonzaw wrote: I was tracker once, and scum framed my (town) target so I saw him visit the dead guy and I misslynched him D2 and town lost...
...so yeah Parity Cop please (never got it though)
Tracker also sucks because you have like 60% chance to target a VT and get squat, maybe every single night. Works best in themed games with lots of visits and shit.
Was effective NMM xliii
Pure luck though, it told me nothing
Until
"Yo dawg I heard you liked tracking So I made another tracker So you could track someone who was tracking"
On August 06 2013 08:05 ObviousOne wrote: I like tracker but with a caveat. If its a town tracker I would hope the mafia KP is observable ( not factional) even if it means it still couldn't be roleblocked.
I don't think tracker would ever be in a game where KP was delivered factionally
On August 06 2013 08:05 ObviousOne wrote: I like tracker but with a caveat. If its a town tracker I would hope the mafia KP is observable ( not factional) even if it means it still couldn't be roleblocked.
I don't think tracker would ever be in a game where KP was delivered factionally
You would hope so, right?!
Also, remember that time I claimed watcher when I was a Voyeur? Awkward.
On August 06 2013 08:05 ObviousOne wrote: I like tracker but with a caveat. If its a town tracker I would hope the mafia KP is observable ( not factional) even if it means it still couldn't be roleblocked.
I don't think tracker would ever be in a game where KP was delivered factionally
You would hope so, right?!
Also, remember that time I claimed watcher when I was a Voyeur? Awkward.
I've no idea what you're talking about and now I can only think about sex. Curses.
On August 06 2013 08:05 ObviousOne wrote: I like tracker but with a caveat. If its a town tracker I would hope the mafia KP is observable ( not factional) even if it means it still couldn't be roleblocked.
I don't think tracker would ever be in a game where KP was delivered factionally
You would hope so, right?!
Also, remember that time I claimed watcher when I was a Voyeur? Awkward.
Parity Cops are fun, and as cool as Trackers and Watchers are - my mind still hasn't fully grasped their awesomeness yet In fact, this poll makes me sad that I've never been blue before T_T
Since this was a recent topic in the Active Games Thread, lets see what method the majority (I'm so funny) of people prefer.
I like plurality since I feel there are more options available later in the cycle. People complain that it only takes a couple votes to get a player lynched in plurality, but that's more dependent on the town than anything. Plus, last minute switches are easier, which are always fun.
I love and miss instant majority. There is nothing more satisfying than dropping a good hammer. Also what the shit is kingmaker again? Also kita. That other thread. ANSWERS PLIX
Voted for Plurality. Majority / instant majority would be cool but it's really hard to consolidate on a lynch when (usually in games i have played) people act retardedly and don't understand what should they do.
Kingmaker is probably really cool. Would be my second pick for sure. :D
Very important. I prefer that the game has gone through dry runs and is reviewed by multiple people (14)
56%
Somewhat important. 70/30 balance is acceptable if the setup is interesting or everyone gets a role (9)
36%
Extremely important. I will only play setups that are proven to be balanced over a large sample size (1)
4%
Irrelevant. I'd join a game that was completely broken as long as it was entertaining. (1)
4%
25 total votes
Your vote: How important is game balance to you?
(Vote): Extremely important. I will only play setups that are proven to be balanced over a large sample size (Vote): Very important. I prefer that the game has gone through dry runs and is reviewed by multiple people (Vote): Somewhat important. 70/30 balance is acceptable if the setup is interesting or everyone gets a role (Vote): Irrelevant. I'd join a game that was completely broken as long as it was entertaining.
I went with very important, although it is pretty rare that I've prevented myself from joining a game due to balance concerns so somewhat important might be a bit more accurate. Even if the setup makes for an entertaining game, I'm going to be pretty frustrated if I'm putting in 1-2 hours every day for two weeks into a game that I never really had a fair chance of winning. I didn't go with extremely important because these setups are generally very vanilla or uninteresting.
Yeah I don't expect many people to not vote for very important. Extremely important is overkill but anything less than that just worsens the experience. If halfway through the game you feel screwed because of the setup, something has gone pretty wrong.
edit: I mean, I'm sure I'll be proven wrong, but I don't see the appeal in playing in a game in which I feel I have no control over the outcome
70/30 is a bit extreme but I could handle 60/40 so I went with it anyway. As long as you make the setup player skill based and don't have any stupid follow the cop or whatever that just kills games then it's fine
On August 20 2013 02:52 Clarity_nl wrote: Yeah I don't expect many people to not vote for very important.
Perhaps, but I'd argue that 9 of out of the last 13 large theme game setups would fit closer to somewhat important than very important and there are very few complaints at the end of most of them. For example, nothing against deconduo and his PTP games as they are always fun and I've joined everyone one and I could be wrong about this, but I think it's pretty unlikely that he spent 5+ hours running through multiple test games to try to achieve a 55/45 or better balance. It's probably more likely that he tweaked a few roles to make everything comparatively equal, eliminated any obvious role interactions, and then adjusted the kp values based on the roles and number of players. As the setup becomes more complex, it becomes somewhat expected that hosts will let things play out in favor of more freedom to stretch the bounds of a role.
Yeah themed games definitely should get a bit more leeway. I'm /in aperture 2 part 2, for example. Do I expect the setup (of which I know nothing) to come close to 50/50 or even 40/60 if it's played a 1000 times? Nah. But balance is very subjective and vague in a game like mafia to begin with. What I do expect of a themed game though is nothing that breaks the game and nothing that can be abused, and the numbers make sense balance wise. (e.g.: scum can't win n3 if town lynched 1 scum is a nice benchmark that I just pulled outta my ass but makes sense out loud)
The question envelops all games though, not just themed, which is why I'm leaning more in the direction of very important.
Somewhat important---it really depends on the game. For a themed game I don't expect much in terms of balance honestly---you're playing for the flavour and the fun, not the balance imo. I can honestly say I wouldn't care if Aperture was 90/10 so long as it ends up being a lot of fun. For normals and minis my expectations are a little higher assuming regular roles.
On August 20 2013 09:16 Ace wrote: no themes have to be balanced also. Flavour isnt an excuse for bastard modding.
There's a difference between flavour and crazy roles and stuff imo. Yes ideally themed games should be balanced or at least an attempt should be made, but it is not as imperative to me as the fun of a themed game for me is primarily in the roles and the gameplay.
Continuing with the subject of balance, you guys get to play Foolishness for the day.
I've listed five different mini game setups. Mafia kp is fixed at 1. Plurality lynch. Semi-Open. Identify the setup that is least balanced in your opinion and the setup that is the closest to perfect balance. Feel free to suggest tweaks to improve the setup. Also pick the setup that you would be most interested in playing and least interested in playing.
Setup E 1 Godfather 1 Roleblocker 1 Goon 1 Serial Killer (Compulsive shot, choice of Cover or 1-shot Bulletproof) 1 Jailer 1 Detective 1 Vigilante 1 Miller 5 VT
Note: All factional kp may be roleblocked in this setup
Poll: Which setup is the least balanced?
Setup C (6)
40%
Setup E (4)
27%
Setup A (2)
13%
Setup D (2)
13%
Setup B (1)
7%
All setups are adequately balanced within reason (55/45 or better) (0)
0%
15 total votes
Your vote: Which setup is the least balanced?
(Vote): Setup A (Vote): Setup B (Vote): Setup C (Vote): Setup D (Vote): Setup E (Vote): All setups are adequately balanced within reason (55/45 or better)
Poll: Which setup is the most balanced?
Setup B (6)
50%
Setup D (5)
42%
Setup E (1)
8%
Setup A (0)
0%
Setup C (0)
0%
All setups have glaring balance issues (65/35 or worse) (0)
0%
12 total votes
Your vote: Which setup is the most balanced?
(Vote): Setup A (Vote): Setup B (Vote): Setup C (Vote): Setup D (Vote): Setup E (Vote): All setups have glaring balance issues (65/35 or worse)
Poll: Which setup would you be most interested in playing?
Setup E (6)
60%
Setup C (2)
20%
Setup B (2)
20%
Setup A (0)
0%
Setup D (0)
0%
10 total votes
Your vote: Which setup would you be most interested in playing?
E is least balanced because 1) SKs are inherently not a balanced role type 2) DT in a mini on top of it
B and D are the only setups I'd consider truly balanced in the most literal sense (very close to 50/50), C is meh, E and A are less balanced. Although even those are in the ~60/40 area, which is fine. Well E is more like 50/45/5 if you want to split hairs.
Least balanced is setup D, Vig calls his shot shortly before night 1 ends, he cannot be CC'ed now and have doctor on him for rest of game. He doesn't care about RB since his shot is already used. Town gets a free leader for the rest of the game while scum frantically searches for the medic, and even then it isn't over, one more day follow the leader.
most balanced is B because you will get closest to 50/50 since there are no PRs to get weird results by chance.
wait I misread C...setup C is just setup D but even more town sided. do the same thing I just said but now you have a detective on the side getting checks quietly
On August 27 2013 07:01 HiroPro wrote: Well what do you consider standard? Would possible mafia vigilantes/non-compulsive serial killers for example be standard?
I've seen this discussion before on these forums. It doesn't end well.
edit: in that same thread the question was asked "if someone hosts a normal game, with a twist, should it be hosted under the [N] tag or the [T] tag", did we ever come to a consensus on that?
Eventually down the road I wanna probably host some minis that are fairly normal but with roles that don't see much play on TL, am just gauging if I get frowned upon for putting something like that in queue as a normal or not.
Specifically I've had my eye on the "ascetic" modifier for some blues (ascetic roleblocks anyone that targets them with a night ability like medic or cop check), but had some other ideas pop in mind from time to time
also backup roles. (e.g. backup cop only gets to check people if the cop has died)
I think both of these modifiers would be great to fine tune a reasonably balanced setup
On August 27 2013 06:13 Hapahauli wrote: Balance is incredibly subjective. It's entirely based on player-skill and/or site meta as opposed to some universal truth.
That being said...
Least Balanced is Setup A by far. Medic + Doctor is so absurdly town-favored without any way to contest the accuracy of checks.
Most Balanced is Setup D. Medic + Vigi is a balanced combo, though I'd prefer a jailkeeper in place of the medic instead.
Most Interested in Playing would be Setup B. I quite like the mountainous setups - minimalist but fun.
Least Interested in Playing would be Setup A. Cops in minis are absurdly imbalanced, and more so when there's no way to screw with their checks.
I agree with this though I'd say setup A and C are fairly equally imbalanced.
In almost all games, make doctors and jail keepers non-consecutive targeting. You'll solve a lot of potential "unkillable player" problems there too. No idea why hosts don't do this more. Setup A can be fixed by that addition alone in case people are worried about roleblocker being investigated first.
I'll make the argument against the all vanilla setup since it is currently winning poll number two. The assumption that setup B is balanced relies on the assumption that 3 mafia vs 9 town is balanced. In an all vanilla setup with 12 players, the game is going to always end when a faction pulls off three successful lynches. Based on the mechanics of how the mafia and town work, it is clearly unfair that they must meet the same objective. Mafia have the benefit of knowing the identities of their allies and they have the benefit of the nightly kp, which cannot be prevented. Blue roles serve to make up for the factional advantage the mafia has. I believe the all vanilla setup has been run 7-8 times on TL and while this is definitely too small of a sample size, I don't recall a game where town has ever won. It's possible to make the argument that the all vanilla setup isn't well balanced, it's just the most balanced out of the five listed. I'm guessing a near vanilla setup would probably be the fairest in theory.
On August 27 2013 22:08 kitaman27 wrote: I'll make the argument against the all vanilla setup since it is currently winning poll number two. The assumption that setup B is balanced relies on the assumption that 3 mafia vs 9 town is balanced. In an all vanilla setup with 12 players, the game is going to always end when a faction pulls off three successful lynches. Based on the mechanics of how the mafia and town work, it is clearly unfair that they must meet the same objective. Mafia have the benefit of knowing the identities of their allies and they have the benefit of the nightly kp, which cannot be prevented. Blue roles serve to make up for the factional advantage the mafia has. I believe the all vanilla setup has been run 7-8 times on TL and while this is definitely too small of a sample size, I don't recall a game where town has ever won. It's possible to make the argument that the all vanilla setup isn't well balanced, it's just the most balanced out of the five listed. I'm guessing a near vanilla setup would probably be the fairest in theory.
It's just the fact, I guess, that vanilla setups aren't "swingy"
10 VT vs 3 goons is a much better setup than 9v3, imo
I agree that 10 vt 3 goons is better than 9 vt 3 goons.
Maybe something in the middle of that is even better? 8 vt 1 (1-2shot?) doc 3 goons? It makes it so that if the doc doesnt save scum still wins in 3 mislynches, but if doc does make a save scum require 4 mislynches. I guess what I didn't think of is that if the doc saves someone they can claim the protect and confirm two townies.... scum can't counterclaim that. Hmmm
On August 27 2013 22:08 kitaman27 wrote: I'll make the argument against the all vanilla setup since it is currently winning poll number two. The assumption that setup B is balanced relies on the assumption that 3 mafia vs 9 town is balanced. In an all vanilla setup with 12 players, the game is going to always end when a faction pulls off three successful lynches. Based on the mechanics of how the mafia and town work, it is clearly unfair that they must meet the same objective. Mafia have the benefit of knowing the identities of their allies and they have the benefit of the nightly kp, which cannot be prevented. Blue roles serve to make up for the factional advantage the mafia has. I believe the all vanilla setup has been run 7-8 times on TL and while this is definitely too small of a sample size, I don't recall a game where town has ever won. It's possible to make the argument that the all vanilla setup isn't well balanced, it's just the most balanced out of the five listed. I'm guessing a near vanilla setup would probably be the fairest in theory.
It's just the fact, I guess, that vanilla setups aren't "swingy"
10 VT vs 3 goons is a much better setup than 9v3, imo
7 VT vs 5 goons isn't very swingy either, but that doesn't mean it's fair.
Balanced setups shouldn't be too hard for minis, imo. Not too many blues so the game isn't too swingy, and work out how many mislynches/lynches are needed and how many saves etc. changes this number, what the worst/best case scenario is etc.
I know at least 3 other sites keep some time of log of past games. I wonder if we would be able to build up a large enough sample size to take a look at mini setup win rates.
Poll: What is the biggest factor in determining to join a game?
Availiblity; My schedule often prevents me from playing mafia. (9)
39%
Setup; I prefer to play setups that are interesting or not too crazy. (7)
30%
Size; Large games are just too difficult to keep up with. (4)
17%
Players; I enjoy playing with a certain group or I will refuse to play with a certain player. (3)
13%
Hosts; I will only join games where the host has a reputation for being experienced and fair. (0)
0%
23 total votes
Your vote: What is the biggest factor in determining to join a game?
(Vote): Availiblity; My schedule often prevents me from playing mafia. (Vote): Size; Large games are just too difficult to keep up with. (Vote): Setup; I prefer to play setups that are interesting or not too crazy. (Vote): Hosts; I will only join games where the host has a reputation for being experienced and fair. (Vote): Players; I enjoy playing with a certain group or I will refuse to play with a certain player.
I went with setup. Availability usually isn't a huge issue for me and I don't recall ever not joining a game based on the host (except maybe Caller). Obviously everyone will have certain people they'd prefer to play with over others, but that hasn't ever impacted my decision to join either. Size kinda goes hand-in-hand with the setup and I do seem to play less mini games, but I don't think that's as big a factor as setup.
I honestly don't think I can answer this because I know I would join a Greymist game for host (though that goes hand-in-hand with setup). I know sometimes my schedule prevents me from playing certain games, and I know that sometimes I have played games because people I like are playing in them. Too many factors at any one time to say which is the strongest for me.
I prefer being mafia. The game just feels so much more exciting and I love trying to pull off crazy shenans lol. It's so hard to get motivation when playing as town.
Depends. I'm usually not free to play in a game these days, so that's probably the biggest factor. There are a few hosts whose games I wouldn't join and there are a few hosts whose games I'll try to join if I have time. I usually prefer playing in minis or themed games and there are certain players who I prefer playing with so I'm more likely to join games that they're playing in.
(Vote): 4 PM EDT to 7 PM EDT (Vote): 8 PM EDT to 11 PM EDT (Vote): 12 AM EDT to 3 AM EDT (Vote): 4 AM EDT to 7 AM EDT (Vote): 8 AM EDT to 11 AM EDT (Vote): 12 PM EDT to 3 PM EDT
4 PM EDT to 7 PM EDT = 20:00 GMT (+00:00) to 23:00 GMT (+00:00) 8 PM EDT to 11 PM EDT = 00:00 GMT (+00:00) to 03:00 GMT (+00:00) 12 AM EDT to 3 AM EDT = 04:00 GMT (+00:00) to 07:00 GMT (+00:00) 4 AM EDT to 7 AM EDT = 08:00 GMT (+00:00) to 11:00 GMT (+00:00) 8 AM EDT to 11 AM EDT = 12:00 GMT (+00:00) to 15:00 GMT (+00:00) 12 PM EDT to 3 PM EDT = 16:00 GMT (+00:00) to 19:00 GMT (+00:00)
Nowadays I don't play because many people seem really foreign to me. I'd play PTP no matter what though, Oracle never forgets. Time is not that important, but it plays a minor role.
4pm to 7pm although an hour later is fine too (that makes it 2 am for me) any later than that sucks balls. Morning or afternoon deadline is just terrible I think.
Poll: Should directly quoting non-host PMs and quicktopic logs be allowed?
No, but paraphrasing should be allowed (10)
59%
No, the conversation should remain seperate from the thread (3)
18%
Yes, there should be no restrictions (2)
12%
Yes, but time stamps should be excluded (2)
12%
17 total votes
Your vote: Should directly quoting non-host PMs and quicktopic logs be allowed?
(Vote): Yes, there should be no restrictions (Vote): Yes, but time stamps should be excluded (Vote): No, but paraphrasing should be allowed (Vote): No, the conversation should remain seperate from the thread
This is a topic that has come up in several recent games, including GoT, Aperture 2, and the upcoming (I hope?) Hydra Mafia. The common policy is to not allow direct quotes, but force players to paraphrase a conversation. Unfortunately, it is difficult to qualify how strict the paraphrase must be and relevant information may be lost in the process based on the wording or flow of the conversation. The question I would have is why would a direct quote be disallowed? If you're coming to a conclusion based on the information in a mason PM, I think you should be allowed to present it to the thread. The counter-point I'm assuming is that it is too difficult to produce fake mason logs, which essentially confirms the role to the thread. In my opinion, this is a challenge the mafia team should attempt to overcome, rather than implementing some type of in-between rule on what is allowed to be shared.
I can understand the decision to disallow posting time-stamps in the case of anonymous quicktopics. Determining ones identity based on their apparent time-zone may be unfair, but it also puts the mason partner in the awkward situation where they have the information available to them, they just aren't allow to explain potential suspicions based on this information.
I guess in thinking about that question I've come to the conclusion that I don't really like pm games because of this issue. Paraphrasing is awkward, but if you allow direct quoting (even without timestamps) then it seems unfair to scum.
Yes, scum COULD forge pms in the writing style of the townie who died but then you're not playing mafia anymore.
Obviously not allowing any mention of pms just makes the game awkward because people will have reads based off of pms that they can't really act on, which in itself makes pms useless to begin with other than maybe coordinating power roles. So if I had to pick I guess I'd go with paraphrasing.
Plus everyone just plays worse in pm games because they scumhunt less. =/
On September 17 2013 09:13 raynpelikoneet wrote: Quote convos as you wish (no screenshots). Forging is easy. No quoting host PM's, not even role PM's.
Forging is not easy once people can directly quote pms. When this is made possible suddenly I am spending time scrutinizing someone's writing style and mannerisms and comparing them to the pms that were just posted to see if they were forged (or to forge pms). I don't want to do that.
On September 17 2013 09:13 raynpelikoneet wrote: Quote convos as you wish (no screenshots). Forging is easy. No quoting host PM's, not even role PM's.
Forging is not easy once people can directly quote pms. When this is made possible suddenly I am spending time scrutinizing someone's writing style and mannerisms and comparing them to the pms that were just posted to see if they were forged (or to forge pms). I don't want to do that.
Disallowing direct quoting does take away the option from a mafia team that does want to do that however. Sure, paraphrasing could do the same thing, but it lacks the wow factor that a full set of fake logs could provide.
I think that perfectly emulating a writing style isn't really necessary unless it is someone with an incredibly distinctive posting style or someone with questionable English, which is pretty rare.
On September 17 2013 05:16 Clarity_nl wrote: I guess in thinking about that question I've come to the conclusion that I don't really like pm games because of this issue. Paraphrasing is awkward, but if you allow direct quoting (even without timestamps) then it seems unfair to scum.
Yes, scum COULD forge pms in the writing style of the townie who died but then you're not playing mafia anymore.
Obviously not allowing any mention of pms just makes the game awkward because people will have reads based off of pms that they can't really act on, which in itself makes pms useless to begin with other than maybe coordinating power roles. So if I had to pick I guess I'd go with paraphrasing.
Plus everyone just plays worse in pm games because they scumhunt less. =/
On September 17 2013 05:16 Clarity_nl wrote: I guess in thinking about that question I've come to the conclusion that I don't really like pm games because of this issue. Paraphrasing is awkward, but if you allow direct quoting (even without timestamps) then it seems unfair to scum.
Yes, scum COULD forge pms in the writing style of the townie who died but then you're not playing mafia anymore.
Obviously not allowing any mention of pms just makes the game awkward because people will have reads based off of pms that they can't really act on, which in itself makes pms useless to begin with other than maybe coordinating power roles. So if I had to pick I guess I'd go with paraphrasing.
Plus everyone just plays worse in pm games because they scumhunt less. =/
Deception, lies, and trickery?
Sounds like mafia to me
Eh, I get that. But if the meta would somehow drift into every game being a pm game and forging pm logs at an acceptable level was normal, I'd probably enjoy mafia less. Maybe it's more of a stylistic grievance for me, dunno.
I don't remember what game is was where someone screenshotted them playing dota to prove that they weren't around, and someone commented it was not in the spirit of the game and I kinda get that. Maybe it's not quite the same as forging pms, but once the game becomes "you gain an advantage by being able to forge documents that prove things" it just becomes a different game and one I probably would not want to play. (part of that scenario was my fault cause I questioned the guys claim of playing dota by the length of his dissapearance, so meh)
Generally speaking in mafia I'm a fan of both sides having options.
And I don't think TL Mafia is showing any particular signs of games becoming predominantly PM with forgeries whizzing about either, so I wouldn't worry too much, babycakes
In theory mafia should not need to forge PM's. But it's fun. :D I ahve actually never forged conversations as mafia, only time when i have done that is when assumed mafia wants town -- town logs and i want to make them hit who i want to. ^^
On September 17 2013 20:33 marvellosity wrote: Well, idealistically, one might argue that convincingly forging PMs/conversations is a height of scum play.
Hmph. Yes, it would be the height of scumplay if direct quoting is allowed. Which is why I don't like it
I mean, if you need to forge PM's as scum you are probably already in deep shit. It's like kita said, the wow-factor when something like that succeeds!
On September 17 2013 20:39 raynpelikoneet wrote: I mean, if you need to forge PM's as scum you are probably already in deep shit. It's like kita said, the wow-factor when something like that succeeds!
On September 17 2013 20:39 raynpelikoneet wrote: I mean, if you need to forge PM's as scum you are probably already in deep shit. It's like kita said, the wow-factor when something like that succeeds!
don't see why that has to be the case at all tbh
Because as scum you should be pushing your agenda in PM's so that you don't get caught even if the logs come in public. In Sicilian Ver had a point in "why post logs after someone has died, because they can't be verified to be true most likely".
In GoT i made sure whatever PM's come into the thread they do not incriminate me. I PM'd with my scumbuddies when it was allowed (when Chrom was a lord). I think that's far better as scum to play like that compared to playing it risky and hope you can forge PM's if needed.
I mean, obviously at the last night i claimed scum to Risen, but that didn't matter any more because he knew i was scum already. :D
I think the idea behind forging pms is usually that when a townie dies and someone asks for logs between you (as scum) and him, you can change his reads post mortem to suit your agenda.
edit: so forging pms definitely has benefits even if you're already winning or whatever
On September 17 2013 22:43 Clarity_nl wrote: I think the idea behind forging pms is usually that when a townie dies and someone asks for logs between you (as scum) and him, you can change his reads post mortem to suit your agenda.
edit: so forging pms definitely has benefits even if you're already winning or whatever
There is a problem though. What if he has been PMing someone else who is town? I understand what you are after but it's not a good idea unless you can be sure it's only you who the dude has been PMing with and the forgery does not contradict what the dude has been saying in thread.
(Vote): From another mafia site (Vote): From the TL sidebar (Vote): From the Sports and Games Sticky (Vote): From a friend on Teamliquid (Vote): From a real life friend (Vote): From a TL blog
The first time I learned about mafia was through a blog by DrH advertising his game. Since the forums were hidden, I didn't even realize they existed here.
I infiltrated their office and then murdered one of the rookies and took his place. Please update your poll in such a way I can vote truthfully, my dear kitaman27.
EDIT: 5300th posts folks, nice time hanging out here!
Poll: What is your opinion on the state of post-game analysis?
I'd prefer more structured player specific analysis (10)
53%
I'd prefer more structured game specific analysis (6)
32%
I'd prefer more unstructured analysis (2)
11%
I believe there is a sufficient amount of post-game content (1)
5%
I'd prefer more structured setup specific analysis (0)
0%
19 total votes
Your vote: What is your opinion on the state of post-game analysis?
(Vote): I'd prefer more structured game specific analysis (Vote): I'd prefer more structured player specific analysis (Vote): I'd prefer more structured setup specific analysis (Vote): I'd prefer more unstructured analysis (Vote): I believe there is a sufficient amount of post-game content
Assuming all of the above is not an option, which would you like to see more of?
Game specific analysis refers to when a host, player, or observer agrees to write up a lengthy post discussing the major events of the game and the actions taken by the town or mafia team as a whole.
Player specific analysis refers to critique provided to individuals, discussing the decisions that they made and ways they may improve in future games.
Setup specific analysis refers to a discussion of the mechanics, roles, balance and potential improvements for future iterations of the setup.
Unstructured analysis refers to the general post game discussions that are usually more casual and not dominated by a single analyst.
Voted for "I'd prefer more structured player specific analysis". I am always a fan of knowing how i did in the game and how to improve. Usually though, talking with players in constructive manner after the game gives the same result so i could aswell vote for "I'd prefer more structured game specific analysis".
Yeah game is probably more useful than player for people who know what they do wrong. For people like me I don't want some long thing analysis of my play, just something that says "Hey Risen you missed X or you look scummy when you do Y."
On October 26 2013 00:01 [UoN]Sentinel wrote: I loved the setup of Tunnel Rats (#2), we can clone that one and redo it unless we want to mix it up a bit?
Unless i am mistaken the setup has been same (9 players) both times? :p Agreed that's probably the best number of players regarding balance.
On October 26 2013 00:01 [UoN]Sentinel wrote: I loved the setup of Tunnel Rats (#2), we can clone that one and redo it unless we want to mix it up a bit?
Unless i am mistaken the setup has been same (9 players) both times? :p Agreed that's probably the best number of players regarding balance.
If they were, then yeah.
I've never checked the first one, I just remember the second one from personal experience, and although town won by a landslide it was still tightly won
Poll: What is your opinion on players with a high post-count playstyle?
I'm capable of following the thread if it's within reason (<100 posts/5 filter pages per cycle) (8)
36%
I'm fine with it as long as they don't go overboard (<200 posts/10 filter pages per cycle) (7)
32%
I simply can't keep up and prefer a post count restriction (<50 posts/3 filter pages per cycle) (4)
18%
I have no issue with players making an unlimited number of posts (3)
14%
22 total votes
Your vote: What is your opinion on players with a high post-count playstyle?
(Vote): I have no issue with players making an unlimited number of posts (Vote): I'm fine with it as long as they don't go overboard (<200 posts/10 filter pages per cycle) (Vote): I'm capable of following the thread if it's within reason (<100 posts/5 filter pages per cycle) (Vote): I simply can't keep up and prefer a post count restriction (<50 posts/3 filter pages per cycle)
New poll time! I don't recall ever seeing a a follow-up poll for Sicilian, so here you go. This is clearly not a reference to any individual player or ongoing games. In no way was this inspired by a certain player's 350 post/18 page day one display.
On one hand, I can see the merits of making an extreme number of posts. As town, it allows you to carry out a more natural conversation and pick up on information that you wouldn't have otherwise. As mafia, it can overwhelm anyone attempting to develop a read on you by sheer filter size. I have no doubt that individuals who use this play style are successful and it would be potentially unfair to tell them that they need to change the way that they play.
On the other hand, it makes the thread much more difficult to follow. The majority of people have a limited amount of time they are able to spend on a game each day and if you are required to read a large amount of content each cycle, it is likely cutting into the amount of time you have to scumhunt as town or push an agenda as mafia. I've heard from multiple people who have said that they are discouraged from joining a game due to the size of a thread.
In the past, we would commonly have large games that didn't reach 100 pages and now we commonly have large games that reach 100 pages by day one. I'm not going to make a judgement to which were necessarily better or worse, but they are definitely a different experience.
More than 5 pages per cycle is a death sentence for me. It's probably my number one turn-off in a game of mafia, and probably the number one reason I'm not intending to play until I can find a game where Day 1 is contained exclusively within spring break.
I'm actually a little sad I missed Sicilian, I would have loved a game with postcount restriction.
Poll: Should behavioral modkills be enfoced at the expense of game balance?
Yes, it should be clear that certain behaviors are unacceptable even if their death ruins the game (19)
76%
Yes, but only in extreme cases where a player is totally out of line (5)
20%
No, behavioral modkills are dumb and people need to learn be less offended (1)
4%
No, people should put up with it for the sake of the game and players should be punished postgame (0)
0%
25 total votes
Your vote: Should behavioral modkills be enfoced at the expense of game balance?
(Vote): Yes, it should be clear that certain behaviors are unacceptable even if their death ruins the game (Vote): Yes, but only in extreme cases where a player is totally out of line (Vote): No, people should put up with it for the sake of the game and players should be punished postgame (Vote): No, behavioral modkills are dumb and people need to learn be less offended
Suppose a game has been going on for a couple weeks and multiple people start posting personal attacks, despite already being warned in the thread the previous day. It's unclear how offended people are by these attacks as it's pretty common from these players. Modkilling these players will totally ruin the game and result in a win for a faction that didn't necessarily deserve it. How should this be handled?
The problem here is the same I stated elsewhere---you're not taking into account host bias in that most hosts have their own agenda in not wanting their game to be ruined. If it were a game I wasn't hosting I'd be 100% for maximum punishment but then that ruins the entirety of a host's hard work.
I've said it before and I'll say it again: there needs to be a rules overhaul or at the very least a 'reimagining' in that some very specific guidelines/rules need to be laid out as to what is acceptable and what is not, both in terms of the player behaviour problem, as well as the lurker/playing against one's wincon problem.
WoS is spot on. I hate modkilling someone in a game I've spent more than a hundred hours designing, testing, iterating, etc. I will still do it, but you'll get a lifetime ban from my games (which can be appealed - to me) in addition to your TLMafia punishment. Some players have consistently poor behavior. While that is ultimately on them, mods who are more active in the community than myself should have a good idea of problem players, and should exclude them from their games, or put them into roles that don't have balance importance (remember, I advocate RNG-then-fix instead of straight RNG). I've turned players down until they've gotten character references before. You owe it to your players and yourself to make the game enjoyable for all, and players with repeated behavior issues, even if they didn't get official warnings, can and should be dealt with.
I also think that games have gotten a little long (100pages D1 is too much, 40-50 is fine), but that is not a hosting problem so I don't really care too much as long as the players are fine with it.
I voted that they should be modkilled even if it ruins the game. It is unfortunate that it would possibly ruin the hard work of the hosts and the players who are making an effort but I think we should be looking at what is best for the long term health of the TL mafia community. Ruining a couple games will hurt us in the short term but fostering an environment where people are friendly and enjoy playing together will keep players playing over the long run.
I am in agreement with WoS that there should be a more clear set of rules regarding behavior and playing against win con. Perhaps we could form a small committee of people that everyone respects and they could form some clear guidelines. Then if there were a behavior issue in a game the people on the committee could talk to the hosts and help determine whether a modkill would be appropriate. Which would hopefully get around some of the host bias towards not modkilling to preserve their game.
Another suggestion would be, if a game was completely ruined by modkills maybe we could have a rule in place where the hosts would have the option of cutting in line for the que and hosting the game again shortly after (maybe with a few modifications to keep the game appealing). Which would suck a bit for the people waiting in line but would prevent hosts from investing a huge amount of time in a game just to have it be for nothing.
On December 17 2013 03:31 iGrok wrote: WoS is spot on. I hate modkilling someone in a game I've spent more than a hundred hours designing, testing, iterating, etc. I will still do it, but you'll get a lifetime ban from my games (which can be appealed - to me) in addition to your TLMafia punishment. Some players have consistently poor behavior. While that is ultimately on them, mods who are more active in the community than myself should have a good idea of problem players, and should exclude them from their games, or put them into roles that don't have balance importance (remember, I advocate RNG-then-fix instead of straight RNG). I've turned players down until they've gotten character references before. You owe it to your players and yourself to make the game enjoyable for all, and players with repeated behavior issues, even if they didn't get official warnings, can and should be dealt with.
I also think that games have gotten a little long (100pages D1 is too much, 40-50 is fine), but that is not a hosting problem so I don't really care too much as long as the players are fine with it.
Your solution is only partway elegant in that it solves the problem for you (and may run into your games eventually taking longer to fill in the future, but meh) but does nothing for TL Mafia as a whole.
As far as Mig's reply, those are some good ideas but I'm not sure that the effort required for either of the solutions will be kept up for long. First of all, I would love to host PYP: LoL mafia again, (and I can, given that more than half the roles weren't used with some slight adjustments) but I won't, first of all because I know that due to the bad taste it has left in many people's mouths they will not want to play (nor I host it, really) and second of all because it is doubtful the interest will really be there. With a committee to decide on modkills that requires people to serve (and have extra responsibility, something which many people are not capable of for time reasons or otherwise), requires people to be prompt upon reaching such decisions which amy or may not need to happen often, and will require that such an effort be kept up consistently for quite a while which just doesn't seem likely.
I am in agreement with parts of both of your posts: there are players I let into my game which I knew right away I shouldn't have (players that I wouldn't or don't enjoy playing with myself). If I had to do so again I would be much more strict in that regard---I mentioned earlier somewhere that I could probably make a mental list of the players currently on TL mafia that I am absolutely certain would not in anyway ruin a game or create an unenjoyable experience. As for the health of TL Mafia and the future of it, that absolutely does need to be considered going forward and I will admit to have being a little bit selfish in my moderation (as it was my first time and I spent a VERY long time on the setup)---this kind of thing is easily curbed by more stringent and forward-thinking rules.
Mig needs to retake his role as assistant ban list moderator and lead the reform against the apathetic tyranny of GMarshal who continues to enable this behavior with his merciful ways!
As far as Mig's reply, those are some good ideas but I'm not sure that the effort required for either of the solutions will be kept up for long. First of all, I would love to host PYP: LoL mafia again, (and I can, given that more than half the roles weren't used with some slight adjustments) but I won't, first of all because I know that due to the bad taste it has left in many people's mouths they will not want to play (nor I host it, really) and second of all because it is doubtful the interest will really be there. With a committee to decide on modkills that requires people to serve (and have extra responsibility, something which many people are not capable of for time reasons or otherwise), requires people to be prompt upon reaching such decisions which amy or may not need to happen often, and will require that such an effort be kept up consistently for quite a while which just doesn't seem likely.
I am in agreement with parts of both of your posts: there are players I let into my game which I knew right away I shouldn't have (players that I wouldn't or don't enjoy playing with myself). If I had to do so again I would be much more strict in that regard---I mentioned earlier somewhere that I could probably make a mental list of the players currently on TL mafia that I am absolutely certain would not in anyway ruin a game or create an unenjoyable experience. As for the health of TL Mafia and the future of it, that absolutely does need to be considered going forward and I will admit to have being a little bit selfish in my moderation (as it was my first time and I spent a VERY long time on the setup)---this kind of thing is easily curbed by more stringent and forward-thinking rules.
Yea, I can certainly see why you wouldn't want to host your game again right away.
The committee idea I think is a way to get around the problem of motivation. The issue with having 1 or even 2 people in charge of this is if they are gone/busy/etc then you won't be able to get help with a problem which maybe time sensitive (which has been an issue with the ban list). However, if you have a committee of 5 members you only need 1 of them to comment on the situation. It would be unreasonable to expect an entire group of people to be around just to comment on each behavioral issue that pops up in games so you have a team and as long as one is around (which should be likely) then they can quickly address the problem.
So basically the only serious effort that will need to be put in by any committee member would be the initial talks where the new rules are decided on. After that all you would need to do is help out on issues if you happen to be around.
But the issue of hosts being biased towards preserving their games is a concern. If we are serious about changing things then the only real solution is an unbiased outside party who's primary concern is with maintaining a nice environment for all of TL mafia.
On December 17 2013 04:07 kitaman27 wrote: Mig needs to retake his role as assistant ban list moderator and lead the reform against the apathetic tyranny of GMarshal who continues to enable this behavior with his merciful ways!
Actually, I'm considering just enacting tl behavior rules on this whole forum again. With TL bans for bad behavior, because this is reaching absurd levels.
On December 17 2013 04:07 kitaman27 wrote: Mig needs to retake his role as assistant ban list moderator and lead the reform against the apathetic tyranny of GMarshal who continues to enable this behavior with his merciful ways!
Actually, I'm considering just enacting tl behavior rules on this whole forum again. With TL bans for bad behavior, because this is reaching absurd levels.
What would people think about that?
EDIT: Actually this merits its own thread
Why were they ever taken town?
To be honest, as a host I could see why you wouldn't want to modkill because you set your game up with the mindset that no one is going to get modkilled and it is going to be a perfect game. However, this hasn't happened in a while. A lot of games I have been involved with have been shitfests of personal attacks and other things that would definitely be worthy of TL bans (yes some of it have been my fault but I get a lot more shit than I deserve).
I think the hosts are being way too soft and have too short-term memories as they allow the same players to play games and derail them over and over and over again. It's taken the integrity of this forum and put it in the tank and the atmosphere here is pretty piss-poor. It can't be put on 2 or 3 people as I think almost everyone is guilty of some negative behavior, but it needs to change.
Personally, I just started reporting posts because I feel like hosts are not doing enough to maintain the integrity of TL Mafia and I think that having harsher punishment and ruining a few games with tons of modkills would do us wonders for the long run.
Alternate suggestions would be to encourage hosts to have a large list of replacements to allow for modkills to be replaced or perhaps shutting down the TL Mafia forum for a few days/a week if behavior gets worse. This decision could come from a "council" of 5/7/9 veterans who could shut down the queue and suspend everyone if the bad manner gets really bad. I know the second one sounds drastic but some people have to be taught to play nice by having their toys taken away from them.
so, I haven't actually read most of the games that people seem to be really pissed off about. Can somebody give me some examples of how bad behavior has gotten, or post which days or filters I should look at? As I said, I have preemptively banned people from my games for bad behavior in other games before, but since I have less time to devote TL mafia now, my sense of who is poorly behaved is not as good anymore. my personal banlist feels empty!
I think Corazon is right, more host should have their own ban list and strictly follow them. being lenient hasn't worked, and while I don't want to go full 19 fifties Sovietmore strict enforcement and perhaps player reviews post game would be good
hopefully this is legible, this speech to text on my phone isn't it amazing
I enjoy basically every alternative to forum mafia except for SCII mafia.
As for my favorite, it's a close tie between in-person and video. I'll go with in-person, since I really haven't played all that much video mafia (though I'd love to host a game sometime here).
IRC mafia does produce a lot of hilarious moments, but I'm just so fucking bad at it D=
I do enjoy voice mafia as well, but it can get extremely chaotic in larger groups. So hard to talk in-turn without facial cues.
On February 04 2014 02:31 [UoN]Sentinel wrote: "Superior" implies it's actually good...
Neo must have gotten to him ^^
Poll: How important is it to you to be considered the best mafia player?
I don't care about other's opinions of my abilities (7)
28%
I'm content with being considered among the top group of players (6)
24%
I want to be the very best, like no one ever was (5)
20%
I'm happy as long as I'm improving every game (4)
16%
I wish this was the case, but I know it isn't a realisitic goal (3)
12%
25 total votes
Your vote: How important is it to you to be considered the best mafia player?
(Vote): I want to be the very best, like no one ever was (Vote): I'm content with being considered among the top group of players (Vote): I'm happy as long as I'm improving every game (Vote): I wish this was the case, but I know it isn't a realisitic goal (Vote): I don't care about other's opinions of my abilities
Might comment on this for my 6k blog. Interested to see what others think.
Interesting poll and wording, because there's a distinction between how you view yourself and how others view you.
e.g. "I'm content with being considered among the top group of players" - clearly viewed by other people "I want to be the very best, like no one ever was" - could be viewed by self
I understand the question basically says by other people, but that kinda narrows down the options in a somewhat artificial way
On February 19 2014 00:08 marvellosity wrote: Interesting poll and wording, because there's a distinction between how you view yourself and how others view you.
e.g. "I'm content with being considered among the top group of players" - clearly viewed by other people "I want to be the very best, like no one ever was" - could be viewed by self
I understand the question basically says by other people, but that kinda narrows down the options in a somewhat artificial way
Thing is, right, praise from other people is always nice, that's natural.
But if I could ever say to myself "I'm a stronger townie than syllo" with conviction then I'd feel I'd pretty much achieved everything I wanted to, and that's very little to do with other people. Just a general level of excellence that it would be awesome to reach.
Poll: Do you use the TL Mafia Database when playing mafia?
Yes, I use the player history and filter links all the time (7)
47%
Sometimes, although usually I just use the TL search function (4)
27%
Rarely, although I don't spend much time looking at past games (3)
20%
Huh? (1)
7%
15 total votes
Your vote: Do you use the TL Mafia Database when playing mafia?
(Vote): Yes, I use the player history and filter links all the time (Vote): Sometimes, although usually I just use the TL search function (Vote): Rarely, although I don't spend much time looking at past games (Vote): Huh?
I'll probably try to keep it updated regardless of the poll results since the statistics are fun, but I was curious how much this actually gets used by others.
None of those answers really fit me. I do use meta but I usually just go to the players' profile/search function and check it from there. The last time I checked the database, the info on it was quite aged.
On February 04 2014 02:31 [UoN]Sentinel wrote: "Superior" implies it's actually good...
Neo must have gotten to him ^^
Poll: How important is it to you to be considered the best mafia player?
I don't care about other's opinions of my abilities (7)
28%
I'm content with being considered among the top group of players (6)
24%
I want to be the very best, like no one ever was (5)
20%
I'm happy as long as I'm improving every game (4)
16%
I wish this was the case, but I know it isn't a realisitic goal (3)
12%
25 total votes
Your vote: How important is it to you to be considered the best mafia player?
(Vote): I want to be the very best, like no one ever was (Vote): I'm content with being considered among the top group of players (Vote): I'm happy as long as I'm improving every game (Vote): I wish this was the case, but I know it isn't a realisitic goal (Vote): I don't care about other's opinions of my abilities
Might comment on this for my 6k blog. Interested to see what others think.
WoooW so hard to pick one.
EDIT: I can pick them all. EDIT: Except the last. EDIT: and the first tbh.
Hmm that is odd. I remember added up to Titanic II.
Looking around at some other players, it does look like a ton of games are missing. Apparently the records are a lot older than they should be. Perhaps they got lost at one point when we moved things around. I do have a couple backup copies so I guess I'll try to restore them whenever I have the time to make the next set of updates.
Poll: How important is flavor text for roles and night posts?
Somewhat important. It's nice to have, but I wouldn't mind a night post with only the flip. (10)
48%
Not Important. I don't even read it most of the time. (9)
43%
Very important. It should be a requirement for all hosts. (2)
10%
21 total votes
Your vote: How important is flavor text for roles and night posts?
(Vote): Very important. It should be a requirement for all hosts. (Vote): Somewhat important. It's nice to have, but I wouldn't mind a night post with only the flip. (Vote): Not Important. I don't even read it most of the time.
I usually don't read them at all till a point in the game where it calms down a bit if i'm somewhat enjoying the flavor. If not then I don't even read it.
If it's a themed game I will probably always read it though cause it's always fun ^_^ especially if the players can also have fun with it and roleplay the flavor etc. Otherwise it's not that important to me.
I don't really read them mostly because I don't find them very interesting at times :/
Like, either the flavor is about a TV show, or a film, or a fictional universe I don't know about, or it's some generic stuff about generic mafia stuff ("The Mad Hatter triggered the bomb on the sly Godfather" or whatever), or it's stuff that is just hard to understand lol (either Bluelightz kind of flavor, or just stuff with too much stuff in it that is hard to follow, like weird names and fictional stuff created for the game itself, or whatever).
Funny flavour is really nice to have, serious one isn't really necessary although it does animate people to roleplaying which can also be fun. See game of thrones mafia.
Like, I think I'd prefer it if there was a cohesive storyline in the flavor. Like, imagine a "hidden" mafia play, where you get to play it with the flavor? Like, imagine there are 11 players in the game, and 11 characters are introduced in the Day 1 flavor. There are 3 scum in the game, there are 3 scum in the "flavor" world. The deaths and actions in the flavor world follow the ones in the game, but you can still try to figure out the flavor world game! Like, you have the butler, the woodsman, the princess, and the burglar all in a room. There is 1 scum between them. Who is it? At the same time, you are at a 3v1 MYLO. What if there were subtle links between the "flavor world" and the real game? Like, what if the princess in the flavor world, sort of resembles a certain player in the game? Is the princess that player, and both are town? Or both scum? Or is it just a red herring?
Even if it has no "clues" about the actual game being played, having an engaging sidestory with the flavor would be fun. But...really engaging lol
On March 04 2014 06:54 kitaman27 wrote: Someone should host a clue game. It feels like it has been years since the last one, though I suppose that is probably due to complaints that the clues are always too easy or too obscure.
Haha weird. I made this post before reading your post gonzaw. Get out of my head!
lol. You got in my head in the Shadow Game, now I must get into yours!
But yeah, the writing needs to be pretty good to make it a clue game. In UG there were plenty of clue games which....yeah kind of fell flat in that sense I think (although I don't remember them much, they happened before I joined there).
Why don't we just hire Damon Lindelof to write our flavor? "And the polar bear, was the scum, who traveled back in time to kill the cop, who had a white check on the veteran, who was actually dead"
Poll: Have you ever fell victim to the Mafia Ban List?
No, my record is squeaky clean. (20)
83%
Yes, I received a behavioral ban that was well deserved. (2)
8%
Yes, I received an activity ban that was well deserved. (1)
4%
Yes, but I disagree that my play was ban worthy. (1)
4%
24 total votes
Your vote: Have you ever fell victim to the Mafia Ban List?
(Vote): No, my record is squeaky clean. (Vote): Yes, I received an activity ban that was well deserved. (Vote): Yes, I received a behavioral ban that was well deserved. (Vote): Yes, but I disagree that my play was ban worthy.
After 12 months, I've finally come up with a discussion topic that is important enough to warrant bumping this thread.
When Personality Mafia was brought up in the recent podcast, it reminded me of marv's role:
You are Marvellosity, TL's finest erotic flavor text writer! Once per night, you may submit to the host a message that will be sent to target player. If it contains a piece of erotic flavor text, they will be so creeped out, that they won't leave their house at night and be roleblocked.
After Holyflare's strong performance in XXX, we have a challenger to this prestigious position. I have included excerpts below for you to decide who deserves the title more!
Poll: Who is TL's finest erotic flavor text writer?
Holyflare (5)
71%
marvellosity (2)
29%
7 total votes
Your vote: Who is TL's finest erotic flavor text writer?
So, it had come to this. It turns out that whores aren't very good at finding and killing pimps, and really they should just stick to sex and bitching. Especially the sex. Hot steamy sex with each other too. Mmmmmm, sex, oh yeah baby. That's the way to do it. Right there.
Anyway, I digress.
Almost everyone in the Brothel de Liquidia, or at least the ones who could be arsed to get out of their skanky beds, had decided that Professor Chaos was the hidden pimp in their mist.
Professor Chaos was desperately trying to convince all the whores that he was, in fact, one of them.
"I put on my robe and wizard hat," he started.
This didn't seem to have much of an effect.
"I cast level 3 eroticism," he continued.
Unfortunately, this seemed to only seal his fate. All the whores advanced on him with their whorish weapons.
"I am not a pimp!" Professor Chaos screamed. "Palman del Gaga is! Do you know what I am saying?!"
But they did not know what he was saying, and stabbed him in the face repeatedly. Dark, black blood seeped out of his eyes.
From behind Fuerto Mano came a snigger. She turned around in shock, to find Fuba di Homo holding a gun to her head.
"You foolish whores," he said. "You will always be under our control!" And with that, Fuba di Homo shot Fuerto Mano in an extremely pimpilicious fashion.
I object to the vote, because that is not marv's best flavor:
On September 24 2012 07:11 marvellosity wrote:
Endgame
It had come to this. There stood three men in Liquidia. Two arch-trolls and a brazen newcomer to the scene.
This was the opportunity for the arch-trolls to show they actually cared for town, to do something for the greater good.
Up above in heaven, ShiaoPi, confirmed town tracker, looked down upon the remaining people of Liquidia.
"We have this," he thought. "I nailed both scum, got one lynched while I was alive, now all they have to do is lynch the other one. Nothing can go wrong!"
Alas, how wrong he was.
grush57 sat in the corner of his room, gibbering, stabbing himself with a pencil repeatedly. Bill Murray took all his clothes off, slathered himself in Nutella, and ran out of the town screaming.
DarthPunk came into the room where grush57 was stabbing himself with a pencil.
"Here, let me help you with that" he said, and plunged a knife through grush's heart. Far off in the distance, mysteriously Bill Murray exploded in a mist of trolliness.
grush57, town Mad Hatter, was lynched! Bill Murray, vanilla Townie, exploded and was modkilled for not voting at lylo like a total arse!
Figured it would be interesting run these polls every so often to see if things change over the years. One being absolutely terrible, ten being the best of the best.
Also, I lost the ability to update the OP
Poll: On a scale of 1-10, how would you rate your abilities as town?
1 (4)
19%
7 (3)
14%
10 (3)
14%
4 (2)
10%
5 (2)
10%
6 (2)
10%
8 (2)
10%
9 (2)
10%
2 (1)
5%
3 (0)
0%
21 total votes
Your vote: On a scale of 1-10, how would you rate your abilities as town?
Interesting, after receiving a bunch of 9's and 10's initially, the self-loathing group of players responded in force and a ton of 1's started flowing in to lower the overall average:
2015 Averages: 5.45 Town 5.7 Mafia
2013 Averages: 6.4 Town 6.6 Mafia
Poll: What alignment do you perceive the average TLer to be more skilled at?
Town (5)
63%
No difference (2)
25%
Mafia (1)
13%
8 total votes
Your vote: What alignment do you perceive the average TLer to be more skilled at?
EPT
maybe a poll for your favorite town power role and later mafia power role?
![[image loading]](http://cdn.ebaumsworld.com/mediaFiles/picture/276916/1077955.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://southparkstudios-intl.mtvnimages.com/shared/sps/images/shows/southpark/vertical_video/season_13/sp_1309_clip09.jpg?width=480)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/056sdVf.png)
![[image loading]](http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/11/117774/2388502-double_facepalm.jpg)
