EPTOne solution I've been toying with is simply reinforcing moderation in this forum, in the form of actually giving out tl bans on top of banlist bans for behavior, and enforcing the behavior rules outlined in the commandments. This would put a damper on some of the fun we have but would also address the core behavior issues. Thoughts?
TL Mafia Behavior
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GMarshal
United States22154 Posts
One solution I've been toying with is simply reinforcing moderation in this forum, in the form of actually giving out tl bans on top of banlist bans for behavior, and enforcing the behavior rules outlined in the commandments. This would put a damper on some of the fun we have but would also address the core behavior issues. Thoughts? | ||
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Coagulation
United States9633 Posts
What Would Coag Do before I post. | ||
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Mr. Cheesecake
United States3756 Posts
On December 17 2013 07:09 Coagulation wrote: I always ask myself What Would Coag Do before I post. *Pulls rope on magic conch shell* Nothing.... | ||
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Corazon
United States3230 Posts
On December 17 2013 07:03 GMarshal wrote: Actually, I'm considering just enacting tl behavior rules on this whole forum again. With TL bans for bad behavior, because this is reaching absurd levels. What would people think about that? EDIT: Actually this merits its own thread Why were they ever taken down? To be honest, as a host I could see why you wouldn't want to modkill because you set your game up with the mindset that no one is going to get modkilled and it is going to be a perfect game. However, this hasn't happened in a while. A lot of games I have been involved with have been shitfests of personal attacks and other things that would definitely be worthy of TL bans (yes some of it has been my fault but I get a lot more shit than I deserve). I think the hosts are being way too soft and have too short-term memories as they allow the same players to play games and derail them over and over and over again. It's taken the integrity of this forum and put it in the tank and the atmosphere here is pretty piss-poor. It can't be put on 2 or 3 people as I think almost everyone is guilty of some negative behavior, but it needs to change. Personally, I just started reporting posts because I feel like hosts are not doing enough to maintain the integrity of TL Mafia and I think that having harsher punishment and ruining a few games with tons of modkills would do us wonders for the long run. Alternate suggestions would be to encourage hosts to have a large list of replacements to allow for modkills to be replaced or perhaps shutting down the TL Mafia forum for a few days/a week if behavior gets worse. This decision could come from a "council" of 5/7/9 veterans who could shut down the queue and suspend everyone if the bad manner gets really bad. I know the second one sounds drastic but some people have to be taught to play nice by having their toys taken away from them. | ||
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WaveofShadow
Canada31494 Posts
Call such people babies for not being able to 'take' that kind of play if you will, but a population decline as a result is not a good thing to me. Now the issue becomes will the enforcement of such bans actually help/deter/preevent such behaviour and cause a necessary shift in a positive direction? | ||
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kitaman27
United States9245 Posts
On December 17 2013 07:08 GMarshal wrote: One solution I've been toying with is simply reinforcing moderation in this forum, in the form of actually giving out tl bans on top of banlist bans for behavior, and enforcing the behavior rules outlined in the commandments. Would hosts still have the final say on modkills or would we potentially run into the issue of a stray Banling enforcing these behavioral rules by handing out a temp ban during an ongoing game? Handing them out post game might work, but I'd be hesitant to encourage people to use the Report function to try to enforce the rules. I'd worry that people might start resorting to strategic reporting. On December 17 2013 07:21 WaveofShadow wrote: To restate one of the things talked about previously (to get this rolling), the larger issue at hand isn't necessarily when people like when two veteran players go at it in the heat of the moment and call each other fucking asholes It also isn't very clear what level of standard hosts should be enforcing when it comes to modkills. Is Wave's example something that should be enforced or simply warned? As it is now, I'd think most hosts would let this slide. | ||
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GMarshal
United States22154 Posts
The TL:DR is people getting banned for minor infractions in heated arguments resulted in some games being ruined, since the banlist existed, it was suggested that TLMafia sort of selfregulate. We did, quite well, for a long time, but something's changed and I'm not sure we're up to it anymore, as mentioned, hosts have gotten soft (I'm as much to blame as anyone else), either we toughen up as hosts or go down the "moderation outside of hosts" route. I think the shutting down the mafia forum bit is excessive, its does nothing a tl ban can't do. On December 17 2013 07:22 kitaman27 wrote: Would hosts still have the final say on modkills or would we potentially run into the issue of a stray Banling enforcing these behavioral rules by handing out a temp ban during an ongoing game? Handing them out post game might work, but I'd be hesitant to encourage people to use the Report function to try to enforce the rules. I'd worry that people might start resorting to strategic reporting. I was just going to ask people to pm me/mig instead of using reports, but yes, banning midgame, if you get banned you also get put on the tl mafia banlist automatically. I think the bottom line is that people have been too afraid of ruining games to set precedent, which is understandable, but I fear a few games might have to be ruined to get the message across. | ||
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Risen
United States7927 Posts
Edit: "I think the bottom line is that people have been too afraid of ruining games to set precedent, which is understandable, but I fear a few games might have to be ruined to get the message across." 100% agree | ||
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WaveofShadow
Canada31494 Posts
Edit: to make it clearer, are there people who would be deterred from playimng on TL mafia if these rules go into effect, and if so, why? | ||
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Risen
United States7927 Posts
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Crossfire99
United States1529 Posts
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Blazinghand
United States25551 Posts
The easiest solution is just to add a TL ban to anyone who gets warned or modkilled in a game. If someone has to be warned in game, hit them with a 2-day ban after the game ends. If they have to be warned more than once, make it a week. If someone has to be modkilled, as soon as they're modkilled, ban them for 2 weeks. If hosts are just warning too much and not modkilling, this will make players more careful about being friendly. I think further than that, also, there should be a tribunal (I nominate myself as a member!) for submitting additional TL moderation actions to GMarshal post-game. For example, let's say Ange777, a well-known moderation softie, lets people go with very wild stuff in the game that would have resulted in modkills anywhere else. It's the responsibility of at least one member of the tribunal to read every game that happens on TL, and if there is unpunished behavior, to alert the rest of the tribunal. If the tribunal agrees, they pass the buck over to GM for a TL Ban. I think this should be a two-tiered post-game review process for two reasons: 1) The Tribunal can be largish (5 people +/- 1 seems ideal to me; appointed by GMarshal also seems ideal to me) so that there's enough manpower to have eyes in every game, and also give Tribunal members the opportunity to play in addition to just watching. It takes the pressure off of GM; he will only have to see the final recommendation, since he already has lot sof work 2) This won't interfere with any ongoing games. All review will take place after the game, and the Host of the game still has absolute authority within his own game to warn, modkill, or not modkill who he wants; at the same time, the automatic consequences (weeklong TL bans for being modkilled) will be supplemented with review by the community who just want good games. So, in summary, I recommend that we keep the experience of being in a game or hosting a game largely the same; hosts have total control over modkills and bans, and TL bans won't interrupt ongoing games. However, we add two things to put a curb on heinous behavior: 1) Mandatory punishment post-game (or post-modkill) for anyone who is warned or modkilled in a game, ranging from a 2 day ban for a warning to a 2 week (or 1 month?) ban for being modkilled for behavior reasons. Note that these punishments won't apply to, say, inactivity modkills, which are probably best handled by just banning the people from TL Mafia. 2) Additional review of all games by a group of trusted veterans who will submit ban requests to GM. This will solve the problem of hosts being softies. Games will be the same; but now there will be consequences. | ||
Mig
United States4714 Posts
If people liked the idea of pming me/gm and having us look at things I would be open to it. However, I wonder if adding TL bans to people's punishments would actually improve people's behavior anymore than having tougher hosts with stricter guidelines would. This also wouldn't address some of the other issues there are such as people who just decide to quit and take a modkill (I would be in greatly in favor of having a harsher punishment than the standard 1 game ban for these people). People who quit games / don't try to win at all hurt the game environment and make the games unenjoyable to play as well. I think overall I would be more in favor of revising the standard TL mafia rules to address all the problems we have and encouraging the hosts to be significantly tougher on people. Then we could have me/gm or a committee as a fall back plan if players felt the hosts were being too lenient. | ||
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Coagulation
United States9633 Posts
If so sign me up. | ||
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Blazinghand
United States25551 Posts
On December 17 2013 08:27 Coagulation wrote: will tribunal members be able to take bribes and extort If so sign me up. not only wlil they be able to, they will be required to by tribunal law seriously though the final call will be with a moderator anyways, the point of a tribunal is that that way GM doesn't have to literally ready every game on this forum | ||
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Blazinghand
United States25551 Posts
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HiroPro
United States2624 Posts
Also, I don't see any need to make this any more complicated than it has to be. Leave in-game punishments to the host of the game. They're the ones running the game; they deserve the right to make the call. Post-game stuff should be part of the banlist thread as always. What is the point of a "tribunal" other than giving some people a sense of importance? There's no need for a body to gather "evidence" since the players/observers involved with a game are perfectly capable of doing that. If someone has an issue with a player's behavior from a certain game and the host doesn't want to take action, let them bring it to GM (pointing out specifically what the problem is) and have him decide. I don't understand the purpose of having sitewide bans (especially since most of those are short in length and ineffective at preventing people from playing games). To be honest, the only thing that I think needs changing punishment-wise is that players should have more of a say in what happens for post-game bans. | ||
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Rean
Netherlands808 Posts
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Blazinghand
United States25551 Posts
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WaveofShadow
Canada31494 Posts
A lot of people are asking specifically as to what behaviour has caused this sort of thing lately---is there going to be a way for mods to know what kind of behaviour 'crosses the line?' Will it only be when people complain? Will it be the first time someone calls somebody a bitch? How exactly can we draft a set of rules that apply to every case to make it easier for the 'lenient' mods to decide lay down the hammer or the tougher mods not to necessarily go draconian? | ||
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