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well, that sucks. I was pretty convinced GM was scum given how suspicious he was acting. Pretty disappointing play from him, especially given his incredibly strong role.
Obviously I was wrong, but I'm town and I had completely valid reasons for attacking GM.
On March 19 2013 03:19 DoYouHas wrote:Grrr, that was a painful role to lose. - I am still confident in my zarepath read from day 1, but that has been rehashed enough already, and it seems fruitless to pursue that further until there is more content or until we get to day2. - WOS hadn't really caught my eye as particularly suspicious until he started responding to post-flip pressure. I found that particularly scummy (something I will get into in my next post).
- Ryu deserves a good bit of consideration. Remember when BH was attacking TPS for his tunnel on Coag, an unproductive target, and thought that he was using that tunnel to avoid other topics/being constructive? Well that is exactly what Ryu did day1, and it is a scummy trait. He pointed out 'fishy-ness' in the interaction between Sandro and GreY, speculated that they might both be scum, and never moved on from there. He pushed Sandro until Sandro's afk was explained, then he made a case on GreY. A case that, while described by a few people as 'good', contained 2 blatant misrepresentations + Show Spoiler [Misrepresentations] +Misrepresentation #1: At no point does GreY refer to his "gotcha" moment on GK as a trap. Someone else described it that way, and it stuck. As someone doing a PBPA on GreY, Ryu should have seen this, but he didn't. Instead he runs with this 'setting a trap' mentality as something scummy GreY did, when GreY never actually showed that behavior. Lazy case making.
Misrepresentation #2: Ryu describes GreY's response to GK as "nothing more than OMGUS", which it absolutely wasn't. , and at least 1 point which isn't a scumtell at all (#4). And that is it. That is all Ryu has done. He has displayed a scummy level of target focus in a day1 where tons of viable wagons were flying all over the place.
This is completely false. I did not vocalize any of my other reads because they were not as sure as greymist. The longer I looked at the interaction between greymist and sandroba, the more I became sure that greymist was scum. I chose to ignore sandroba because he was going to be replaced-there's not much reason to attack a person you know will not even be around, and whose scummy traits were probably not motivated by alignment to begin with. My vote was on sandroba for quite a while until the replacement was announced (though it's not in the voting thread because I was not aware of it)
Secondly, simply because greymist didn't literally call it a trap doesn't mean it was a trap. If you want to argue semantics, by all means, go ahead. Your point is moot, given that greymist himself said the words "Perfect. I was waiting for this!"
Given that he was expecting such a reaction, it's only reasonable to assume he was trying to trap a scum. So he "never" showed that behavior, eh? This is not a misrepresentation. This is you looking for something where nothing exists.
Misrepresentation #2: Ryu describes GreY's response to GK as "nothing more than OMGUS", which it absolutely wasn't., and at least 1 point which isn't a scumtell at all (#4). And that is it. That is all Ryu has done. He has displayed a scummy level of target focus in a day1 where tons of viable wagons were flying all over the place. [/spoiler]
It was nothing more than OMGUS, unless you can find a better reason greymist had for attacking GK. None of his points were substantiated and I showed exactly why I think GK is town. This is convenient ignorance of what I posted. In fact, it's ignorance of almost everything that happened surrounding GK and GM.
GM did not attack GK until GK showed suspicion of GM. That's textbook definition of OMGUS.
Lastly, how exactly is pushing a case and seeking consolidation on a chaotic day 1 scummy? If that's your definition of scummy, I fear to see your other reads.
Sadly I can't tell whether you are saying these things as a scum trying to push responsibility for a mislynch, or as a townie who is just bad.
On March 19 2013 04:41 VisceraEyes wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2013 04:28 RyuSuzaku wrote:On March 16 2013 22:24 sandroba wrote:
Geript and sciberbia are both town. BH is trying to emulate his previous behavior. VE is silly. Peashooter I'm leaning town due to the no name claiming warning, other than that the rest of the speculation is pointless at this stage. He seems to be a reasonable fella though, I'm curious about who he is.
Keep up the good work gents. On March 16 2013 22:30 sandroba wrote:
Update: Greymist is suspicious. On March 16 2013 22:40 GreYMisT wrote:On March 16 2013 22:30 sandroba wrote:
Update: Greymist is suspicious. Do you disagree with the point that I made? On March 16 2013 22:45 sandroba wrote:
Don't care about your "points", and neither do you. You seem mafia to me. Last sentence gave you away. I find this interaction forced-there seems to be something off about how sandroba and greymist confront each other here. I wouldn't even call it confronting, really. I dislike sandroba more for the lack of reasoning, but I think it could be possible they are both mafia. ##vote sandroba Show nested quote +On March 17 2013 04:32 RyuSuzaku wrote:
although it is very suspicious that after being called out by sandroba, greymist made a simple and weak question and then chose not to address sandroba's accusation.
Is sandroba's accusation not worthy of a response?
Greymist was clearly around after, since he corrected the host just a while ago. Both of these quotes came from the guy who wrote the "super convincing case" against GreYMisT. I find this to be highly suspicious - at first he thinks they could both be scum, sandroba has done nothing between these posts, and suddenly sandroba is town worthy of a response? ##FoS Ryu
I never assumed sandro to be town nor did I ever strongly feel him to be scum. I voted him to begin with to pressure him into explaining his reads. He obviously never did because he was afk the entire time. I ignored him after the replacement was announced.
IIRC this was before the replacement was announced. I simply was surprised that a player would ignore sandro's accusation, given that he is widely accepted to be a very good town player. I misinterpreted the situation.
Why are you cherry picking me? Are you scum?
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I'm working with the new information, being GreY's alignment. That lead me to filter the guy ultimately responsible for the GreY wagon, which led me to find posts referring to GreY.
I'm not cherrypicking, I just pointed out something suspicious. Why do you say I'm cherrypicking you? Your GreYMisT push is the only significant thing you've done the whole game, why should I not use information from that flip to try and draw conclusions about your alignment?
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On March 19 2013 05:34 RyuSuzaku wrote:
Secondly, simply because greymist didn't literally call it a trap doesn't mean it was a trap. If you want to argue semantics, by all means, go ahead. Your point is moot, given that greymist himself said the words "Perfect. I was waiting for this!"
EBWOP:
Secondly, simply because greymist didn't literally call it a trap doesn't mean it wasn't a trap. If you want to argue semantics, by all means, go ahead. Your point is moot, given that greymist himself said the words "Perfect. I was waiting for this!"
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On March 19 2013 05:42 VisceraEyes wrote:
I'm working with the new information, being GreY's alignment. That lead me to filter the guy ultimately responsible for the GreY wagon, which led me to find posts referring to GreY.
I'm not cherrypicking, I just pointed out something suspicious. Why do you say I'm cherrypicking you? Your GreYMisT push is the only significant thing you've done the whole game, why should I not use information from that flip to try and draw conclusions about your alignment?
By all means, I think you should use new information.
From my perspective, it's suspicious on your part to twist my words. That's what you "found" suspicious. It wasn't even my own words, just your spin on them.
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It's not my "spin" it's my "interpretation" that you were assuming he was town based on how you phrased your accusation of GreY. If I'm mistaken, feel free to correct me but instantly calling it suspicious is a little over the top.
I guess I don't understand what is so suspicious of brushing off sandro's accusation of him. It was suspicious enough for you to vote him over, it was given without any kind of supporting reasoning. Why was it suspicious for GreY to brush off his accusation like that?
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On March 19 2013 05:51 VisceraEyes wrote:
It's not my "spin" it's my "interpretation" that you were assuming he was town based on how you phrased your accusation of GreY. If I'm mistaken, feel free to correct me but instantly calling it suspicious is a little over the top.
I guess I don't understand what is so suspicious of brushing off sandro's accusation of him. It was suspicious enough for you to vote him over, it was given without any kind of supporting reasoning. Why was it suspicious for GreY to brush off his accusation like that?
I didn't vote him based on that.
I thought it was suspicious because I would have expected a townie to try to explain himself instead of simply lurking away.
I'd expect a scum to ignore an accusation from a strong player and simply hope it goes away. I expect townies to react at the very least.
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Explain himself for what? Sandroba's accusation was "Bullshit you're scum"
Like...what were you expecting from him? Could it not be argued that if he HAD come back and explained himself he was needlessly defending himself against weak accusations?
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I liked Vivax's analysis for the mostpart. Several of his conclusions line up with mine. I agree that the people that joined the GreyMist wagon very late are not as concerning as the people that joined it in the middle. Of course this is predicated on the fact that zarepath is scum, which may or may not be true.
Also, I was very happy to see Keirathi is replacing in. I'm sure Ace and Mocsta are cool too, although I have never played with them before. Welcome all.
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On March 19 2013 06:17 VisceraEyes wrote:
Explain himself for what? Sandroba's accusation was "Bullshit you're scum"
Like...what were you expecting from him? Could it not be argued that if he HAD come back and explained himself he was needlessly defending himself against weak accusations?
Why does it matter? Sandro doesn't often explain his reads more than that on day 1. Also, he wouldn't need to necessarily explain himself directly, he could have actually used the time he had to find scum. But, he didn't. Remember, when he was actually active, all he did was correct the host and lurk. You think that's a pro-town thing to do?
And again, I didn't vote him for that alone, it was a little piece of several different things.
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But he didn't - he gave his thoughts on players when he was around.
:/
It doesn't matter right now. I think you're suspicious because of your backing off of sandroba for no reason. You weren't suspicious of him for lurking, so him replacing shouldn't have changed your read of him from "scummy" to "null". You outlined reasoning for thinking Sandroba was suspicious and now suddenly you're not. You say you "never really felt strongly about sandroba for scum" but your votes and reasoning explicitly state otherwise. You say "sandroba doesn't often explain his reads more than that on day 1" but in the orignal post voting for him you cite "lack of reasoning" as your reason for disliking him more than GreY. I think your actions don't line up with your explanations, and the fact that you lurked all through the wagon building on GreY exacerbates my suspicion.
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+ Show Spoiler +On March 19 2013 06:27 sciberbia wrote:
I liked Vivax's analysis for the mostpart. Several of his conclusions line up with mine. I agree that the people that joined the GreyMist wagon very late are not as concerning as the people that joined it in the middle. Of course this is predicated on the fact that zarepath is scum, which may or may not be true.
Also, I was very happy to see Keirathi is replacing in. I'm sure Ace and Mocsta are cool too, although I have never played with them before. Welcome all.
You are awesome <3. Hope some protective role thinks about you tonight, you have the stuff to win the game for town.
Anyway, I think the fact that people who join in late are less suspicious is general, cause it's independent from others being scum. Scum will always look better on another wagon no matter on who it is as long as it isn't the townie being mislynched. Best is when scum sits on other scum while a townie gets lynched obviously, but I'm not expecting it in this case given how zarepath was under fire.
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On March 19 2013 06:35 VisceraEyes wrote:
But he didn't - he gave his thoughts on players when he was around.
:/
It doesn't matter right now. I think you're suspicious because of your backing off of sandroba for no reason. You weren't suspicious of him for lurking, so him replacing shouldn't have changed your read of him from "scummy" to "null". You outlined reasoning for thinking Sandroba was suspicious and now suddenly you're not. You say you "never really felt strongly about sandroba for scum" but your votes and reasoning explicitly state otherwise. You say "sandroba doesn't often explain his reads more than that on day 1" but in the orignal post voting for him you cite "lack of reasoning" as your reason for disliking him more than GreY. I think your actions don't line up with your explanations, and the fact that you lurked all through the wagon building on GreY exacerbates my suspicion.
I voted sandro to pressure him, I had no intention of lynching him based on his lack of reasoning.
I didn't like his lack of reasoning.
After the host said he was going to get replaced, I ignored him because you can't read a player who was not around to begin with. Whatever they do can be explained away by "oh he was busy IRL"
I think you're taking my pressure vote a bit too seriously. Also, I didn't lurk through the greymist wagon building. I was at work and I even said that I would not be back. This is just a lie. (also, even if I was around, why would I bother doing anything? My target for lynch got lynched, and it was clear people agreed with me.)
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Because you didn't do the work yourself, you let others push the wagon for you. You just made the (bad) case that got him lynched. And it's not a lie that you weren't here, you weren't here. That's the context that I use "lurker" not that you were here watching it all go down. When I said "you lurked" I meant "you weren't here" which is NOT a lie, it's a fact.
Anyway, you can say I'm taking your pressure vote too seriously. That's fine. Your post explicitly states that you think he could be scum and that his interaction with GreY looked "forced" and that's reasoning for thinking someone is scum. Honestly you can try and "spin" that however you want, but it's explicit in your post. People need only read it to see the truth.
I'm sick and tired of people that I accuse simply going "NO U". It's really annoying.
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On March 19 2013 02:57 zarepath wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2013 02:54 layabout wrote:On March 19 2013 02:50 zarepath wrote:
Are you Yamato or what? The longer you don't respond to this scumslip narrative the more you're allowing us to mislynch Vivax should he be town. Are you serious? This was dealt with forever ago. If by "dealt with" you mean where he said "I assumed he was trying to figure out if I was a smurf so I ignored it?" I'm not satisfied with that answer. If he can simply say "I'm not Yamato" then town stops thinking they share a QT.
How does this line of questioning help determine alignment?
VE, could you give an updated stance on DP? You kinda dropped off last night and left your vote on him.
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+ Show Spoiler [Ryu's long post] +On March 19 2013 05:34 RyuSuzaku wrote:well, that sucks. I was pretty convinced GM was scum given how suspicious he was acting. Pretty disappointing play from him, especially given his incredibly strong role. Obviously I was wrong, but I'm town and I had completely valid reasons for attacking GM. Show nested quote +On March 19 2013 03:19 DoYouHas wrote:Grrr, that was a painful role to lose. - I am still confident in my zarepath read from day 1, but that has been rehashed enough already, and it seems fruitless to pursue that further until there is more content or until we get to day2. - WOS hadn't really caught my eye as particularly suspicious until he started responding to post-flip pressure. I found that particularly scummy (something I will get into in my next post).
- Ryu deserves a good bit of consideration. Remember when BH was attacking TPS for his tunnel on Coag, an unproductive target, and thought that he was using that tunnel to avoid other topics/being constructive? Well that is exactly what Ryu did day1, and it is a scummy trait. He pointed out 'fishy-ness' in the interaction between Sandro and GreY, speculated that they might both be scum, and never moved on from there. He pushed Sandro until Sandro's afk was explained, then he made a case on GreY. A case that, while described by a few people as 'good', contained 2 blatant misrepresentations + Show Spoiler [Misrepresentations] +Misrepresentation #1: At no point does GreY refer to his "gotcha" moment on GK as a trap. Someone else described it that way, and it stuck. As someone doing a PBPA on GreY, Ryu should have seen this, but he didn't. Instead he runs with this 'setting a trap' mentality as something scummy GreY did, when GreY never actually showed that behavior. Lazy case making.
Misrepresentation #2: Ryu describes GreY's response to GK as "nothing more than OMGUS", which it absolutely wasn't. , and at least 1 point which isn't a scumtell at all (#4). And that is it. That is all Ryu has done. He has displayed a scummy level of target focus in a day1 where tons of viable wagons were flying all over the place. 1. This is completely false. I did not vocalize any of my other reads because they were not as sure as greymist. The longer I looked at the interaction between greymist and sandroba, the more I became sure that greymist was scum. I chose to ignore sandroba because he was going to be replaced-there's not much reason to attack a person you know will not even be around, and whose scummy traits were probably not motivated by alignment to begin with. My vote was on sandroba for quite a while until the replacement was announced (though it's not in the voting thread because I was not aware of it) 2. Secondly, simply because greymist didn't literally call it a trap doesn't mean it was a trap. If you want to argue semantics, by all means, go ahead. Your point is moot, given that greymist himself said the words "Perfect. I was waiting for this!" Given that he was expecting such a reaction, it's only reasonable to assume he was trying to trap a scum. So he "never" showed that behavior, eh? This is not a misrepresentation. This is you looking for something where nothing exists. Show nested quote +Misrepresentation #2: Ryu describes GreY's response to GK as "nothing more than OMGUS", which it absolutely wasn't, and at least 1 point which isn't a scumtell at all (#4). And that is it. That is all Ryu has done. He has displayed a scummy level of target focus in a day1 where tons of viable wagons were flying all over the place. 3. It was nothing more than OMGUS, unless you can find a better reason greymist had for attacking GK. None of his points were substantiated and I showed exactly why I think GK is town. This is convenient ignorance of what I posted. In fact, it's ignorance of almost everything that happened surrounding GK and GM. GM did not attack GK until GK showed suspicion of GM. That's textbook definition of OMGUS. 4. Lastly, how exactly is pushing a case and seeking consolidation on a chaotic day 1 scummy? If that's your definition of scummy, I fear to see your other reads. Sadly I can't tell whether you are saying these things as a scum trying to push responsibility for a mislynch, or as a townie who is just bad. Show nested quote +On March 19 2013 04:41 VisceraEyes wrote:On March 17 2013 04:28 RyuSuzaku wrote:On March 16 2013 22:24 sandroba wrote:
Geript and sciberbia are both town. BH is trying to emulate his previous behavior. VE is silly. Peashooter I'm leaning town due to the no name claiming warning, other than that the rest of the speculation is pointless at this stage. He seems to be a reasonable fella though, I'm curious about who he is.
Keep up the good work gents. On March 16 2013 22:30 sandroba wrote:
Update: Greymist is suspicious. On March 16 2013 22:40 GreYMisT wrote:On March 16 2013 22:30 sandroba wrote:
Update: Greymist is suspicious. Do you disagree with the point that I made? On March 16 2013 22:45 sandroba wrote:
Don't care about your "points", and neither do you. You seem mafia to me. Last sentence gave you away. I find this interaction forced-there seems to be something off about how sandroba and greymist confront each other here. I wouldn't even call it confronting, really. I dislike sandroba more for the lack of reasoning, but I think it could be possible they are both mafia. ##vote sandroba On March 17 2013 04:32 RyuSuzaku wrote:
although it is very suspicious that after being called out by sandroba, greymist made a simple and weak question and then chose not to address sandroba's accusation.
Is sandroba's accusation not worthy of a response?
Greymist was clearly around after, since he corrected the host just a while ago. Both of these quotes came from the guy who wrote the "super convincing case" against GreYMisT. I find this to be highly suspicious - at first he thinks they could both be scum, sandroba has done nothing between these posts, and suddenly sandroba is town worthy of a response? ##FoS Ryu I never assumed sandro to be town nor did I ever strongly feel him to be scum. I voted him to begin with to pressure him into explaining his reads. He obviously never did because he was afk the entire time. I ignored him after the replacement was announced. IIRC this was before the replacement was announced. I simply was surprised that a player would ignore sandro's accusation, given that he is widely accepted to be a very good town player. I misinterpreted the situation. Why are you cherry picking me? Are you scum?
1. - I am quite interested in what these other, not vocalized, reads are. Please elaborate.
2-3. - Originally I thought I had caught you here by getting you to state that GreY's attack on GK was both a trap and OMGUS, which wouldn't make any sense. HOWEVER, I decided to look back at your original case again to make sure I got my facts straight and it turns out that I made a mistake in my original assertions against you. And, because of my mistake, it revealed an inconsistency much larger than the simple contradiction I first mentioned.
"Secondly, simply because greymist didn't literally call it a trap doesn't mean it wasn't a trap. If you want to argue semantics, by all means, go ahead. Your point is moot, given that greymist himself said the words "Perfect. I was waiting for this!"
In Ryu's original case, he says twice that he doesn't believe the 'trap' explanation for GreY's post. He classifies GreY as opportunistic and picking on the easy targets. I was wrong when I said that Ryu had misrepresented GreY by endorsing the trap explanation. Yet Ryu doesn't point out the obvious flaw in how I was representing him, he accepts it and defends it. That is not the action of a tunneling townie who has been challenged on his past case. That is the action of a scum who is reacting to pressure.
4. - I think it is amusing that you convicted GreY on OMGUS, yet you bite back at both me and VE with "maybe you're scum" as soon as we pressure you.
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+ Show Spoiler +On March 19 2013 06:50 VisceraEyes wrote:
Because you didn't do the work yourself, you let others push the wagon for you. You just made the (bad) case that got him lynched. And it's not a lie that you weren't here, you weren't here. That's the context that I use "lurker" not that you were here watching it all go down. When I said "you lurked" I meant "you weren't here" which is NOT a lie, it's a fact.
Anyway, you can say I'm taking your pressure vote too seriously. That's fine. Your post explicitly states that you think he could be scum and that his interaction with GreY looked "forced" and that's reasoning for thinking someone is scum. Honestly you can try and "spin" that however you want, but it's explicit in your post. People need only read it to see the truth.
I'm sick and tired of people that I accuse simply going "NO U". It's really annoying.
VE it's not true his case was bad when a lot of people agreed with it. Just cause it was on town doesn't mean this dude is scum, it means that Greymist played looking scummy and others noticed, and Ryu had the hammer.
However it sure gave scum a good opportunity to jump on it and I find it really really strange that you pick on the guy starting a bandwagon in such way when there are people who joined in ways inconsistent with their former scumreads and with weak reasoning. Go look them up in my big post, I've summarized two of those people there.
Still gotta look at TPS and GK's filters and maybe think about who could be scum aside from glurio, but I've got a beer in and am a little tired so I don't promise anything. My case stands, please take a look at it and evaluate the reads in it.
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I'm personally not very comfortable not getting any limelight, good or bad lol
ill bear with it though, I'd like to claim a medic protect on me, just cause. I have a feeling mafia will gun me down first night.
GreYMisT not being scum is disappointing but it is honestly not surprising, though im having a hard time piecing information on his wagon together. Its safe to assume we will find majority of mafia, maybe even all of them, in the bunch that voted him because 1. easy as hell to sheep, 2. he is a forum veteran. 12 people voted for him, including me
RyuSuzaku, goodkarma, Vivax, geript, ThePeashooter, cosmicomics, Wade Fell, Mr. Wiggles, Kenpachi, zarepath, kitaman27, TestSubject893, WaveofShadow
Honestly, a hard group to figure out.
I'd like to assume that me and Ryu are not mafia lol.
kitaman is just not contributing as much as we'd like to did we not realize? He's as invisible as I am.
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Vivax to put it as Mocsta would:
Your logical fallacy is Appeal to Popularity. Just because a lot of people agreed with it doesn't mean it's a good case. It's an EFFECTIVE case in that it convinced a lot of people, but that doesn't mean that the points are valid.
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^that's a really cool website
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On March 19 2013 07:11 VisceraEyes wrote:Vivax to put it as Mocsta would: Your logical fallacy is Appeal to Popularity. Just because a lot of people agreed with it doesn't mean it's a good case. It's an EFFECTIVE case in that it convinced a lot of people, but that doesn't mean that the points are valid.
Then you should have convinced people of it being bad before GM got lynched, in accordance with your stronger scumread DP. Calling Ryu scummy cause of his (posthoc bad) case after GM got lynched is easy when you know his alignment now, and where did your DP read go anyway?
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EPT
