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On March 21 2013 14:52 TestSubject893 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2013 14:51 Wade Fell wrote:On March 21 2013 14:50 TestSubject893 wrote:On March 21 2013 14:49 Wade Fell wrote:On March 21 2013 14:48 TestSubject893 wrote:On March 21 2013 14:47 Wade Fell wrote:On March 21 2013 14:46 TestSubject893 wrote:On March 21 2013 14:44 Wade Fell wrote:On March 21 2013 14:43 TestSubject893 wrote:On March 21 2013 14:41 Wade Fell wrote:
[quote]
TS893 That's silly too. There's only 2 votes on not only did you express interest in moving your vote, but Mocsta just implied he'd be moving his. I am interested in moving my vote to VE. That being said, you have essentially claimed scum in thread several times, and if there will be vote shennanies I'd highly enjoy shennanieing onto you, kind sir Rofl, what? Show me the scum claims sometime. Not now though because we've got more important things to do. Your scumclaim is the fact that you haven't hunted scum or been in the thread or done anything except scumslide around in the thread when people finally call you out for your lurking and lack of contributions Wow, there's like a dozen claimed scum then. Who thought a game could be balanced with more mafia than town? Except you're actively pretending to be a helpful dude (albeit poorly) rather than just being afk Nice try, but I see where this is going. I'm not getting into another spamfest. It would have been a nice distraction though. I bet your scum teammates are proud of the effort. you STILL haven't addressed my case against you. and when I call you out for your scumminess you claim I'm trying to spam, but you can't make my case go away just by ignoring it. You're just trolling at this point. Anyone wanna switch to BH? He's pretty clearly trying to distract the thread here. We're gonna have to kill the scum at some point so I'm totally cool with killing him today and VE tomorrow.
You can't just _say_ I'm trolling when I'm legitimately saying you are ignoring my case. Saying it doesn't make it true.
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On March 21 2013 12:09 Mr. Wiggles wrote:I want Ace to die. As I'm about to show, he is scum, and his head should roll. Firstly, I will give an overview of Ace's play this game. So far, he has been: Promising reads on mafia, but not delivering any. Pushing a lynch on someone based on the assumption that they are third party, to the exclusion of everything else*. Talking about general role mechanics/fluff otherwise. When Ace joined the game, he made this post, indicating that he was excited to join the game and start scumhunting: Show nested quote +On March 19 2013 11:59 Ace wrote:
I just recently got my role guys, going to read the thread from Day 1 later and start casting votes ^_^ However, since then, he has yet to share a cogent read on who he thinks is mafia. The closest we get to a solid mafia read from Ace is him calling Mocsta scum, with a small amount of justification, but in the hours that follow before he posts again, he doesn't make any sort of push for his lynch or pressure him. As well, the only other read Ace provides is to call WoS town, but more solid reasoning doesn't come until directly after WoS has claimed DT and therefore put the brakes on his lynch. Since then, the only thing Ace has provided are more promises of finding mafia and pushing the lynch onto VE based on an emotional push that plays on town's fears while trying to stopper discussion on other lynch targets. He makes this post asking town to stop talking about other lynch targets and to lynch VE: Show nested quote +On March 21 2013 01:52 Ace wrote:
Stop talking about other people and stay focused on one person at a time. Jesus I don't want to have to teach people how to play my first game back in months.
Just dealwith VE now. Re-read the log: He accepted to join a 3rd party that clearly doesn't have interest in helping the Town. Whether VE is still Townis irrelevant: whatever powers he gets or grants to the 3rd party isn't going to help us. Lynch him now. Treat him like a self aware Miller and just solve the problem immediately. He is then questioned about why we can't scumhunt and lynch VE at the same time, and this is how he responds: Show nested quote +On March 21 2013 02:02 Ace wrote:
We aren't going to stop scumhunting: that would be dumb.
But leaving a claimed 3rd party player alive, when it empowers a player we have no idea about is just as dumb. I don't see how this is a difficult concept to understand.
I guess you guys think leaving claimed Serial Killers alive is a good idea as long as they help the town. lulz. Show nested quote +On March 21 2013 02:11 Ace wrote:
zarepath, if VE is some kind of 3rd party Vet with more than 1 shot powers he can only die by lynch. I'm pretty sure the Town has some kind of night KP - we find a Scum today and vigi him. Both problems solved. So here he's saying that we should still scumhunt while we lynch VE. However, he has not done that. He has not shared any reads, and he has not provided any information that might help town find mafia to follow his own plan of shooting them tonight. There is no reason not to talk about other scum candidates during the day, even if the decision to lynch VE was unanimous, as it is still time that town can easily use to discuss cases and help formulate targets for a potential vig. Ace has not done this, but instead has continued tunneling on the VE wagon, without feeling the need to do anything else of value, despite posting throughout the day. Now, I will explain why I find the way Ace is pushing the VE lynch scummy: Firstly, he does not question The Mirror at all. Ace simply assumes that The Mirror is a third party recruiter and that VE has been recruited without taking any time to reflect on the situation, instead opting to sweep up town into a whirlwind of paranoia and confusion. Ace is very quick to spam the idea that VE is third party and that he has to be the lynch, as shown in these posts: + Show Spoiler +On March 21 2013 01:24 Ace wrote:
lynch VE. now. On March 21 2013 01:38 Ace wrote:
your right, it's not like a claimed Vet is a confirmed Town sure to get shot because he is running around popping Scum and didn't just say he accepted an invite from 3rd party.
Stop being ridiculous. On March 21 2013 01:42 Ace wrote:
I dont have one, and I don't think it's important right now.Lynch VE. On March 21 2013 01:47 Ace wrote:
Who CARES if he is a Vet? He just posted logs of him joining a 3rd party and even said fuck the Town. This isn't hard. On March 21 2013 01:52 Ace wrote:
Stop talking about other people and stay focused on one person at a time. Jesus I don't want to have to teach people how to play my first game back in months.
Just dealwith VE now. Re-read the log: He accepted to join a 3rd party that clearly doesn't have interest in helping the Town. Whether VE is still Townis irrelevant: whatever powers he gets or grants to the 3rd party isn't going to help us. Lynch him now. Treat him like a self aware Miller and just solve the problem immediately. Within 30 minutes, Ace has posted 5 times reinforcing that VE is third-party and has to be lynched. In later posts, he continues to overplay the threat of VE that he has established, saying that he has extra powers, that he's unkillable, and that we'd have an unlynchable anti-town player at one point. These don't provide any additional reasons for why VE is scum, instead they only help scare town into thinking VE will become some unstoppable third party if he's left alive. Now, I find this disingenuous, because Ace did not take any time to consider any other possibilities, and he took everything said in the QT at face value. He does not question if The Mirror is actually a third party recruiter, he does not question if VE actually receives powers, he does not question anything at all. Instead, he takes the opportunity of the posted logs to derail the town into a witch hunt and single-mindedly beats in the idea that VE is now third party. Ace is a very good scum player. He has a keen sense of timing and is quick to seize opportunities presented to him in the thread. He played a very lurky style without doing much of anything until he saw his chance and jumped on VE and his QT logs. Since then he has pushed only this idea, which makes it look like he is actually doing something, while he has done nothing at all, and distracts town from hunting mafia. This is why I believe Ace is scum, and needs to hang. ##Vote: Ace
Supporting Meta: + Show Spoiler +As scum, I find that Ace often likes to waste town's time talking about useless things, while doing only the minimal amount needed to look town. For example, in Sleeper Cell mafia, he got town to talk about a hypothetical situation which had no bearing on the game, wasting time on Day 1. In Wheel of Fortune mafia, he launched town into a discussion of role mechanics and possible set-up plans, distracting from scumhunting and effective play. I see the same sort of play here, with Ace pushing the town into considering third parties and possible recruiters instead of focusing on scum. Additionally, I would like to contrast his play here to his play in Mafia XLVII, which I hosted. In that game, Ace replaced into the game on Day 2, taking on the role of Vigilante. As well, to put things in perspective, at that time there were over 100 pages posted, and the town was in near complete chaos without any strong town leaders or direction. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=285690http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=285690&user=377I was very interested to see Ace's town play that game, and while he was unfortunately modkilled, I think the distinction in play between this game and that one is pretty telling. In that game, Ace was aggressive and assertive, trying quickly to set the town back on track and get them focused on hunting scum. He wasn't scared to share reads and didn't waste time mincing words. To illustrate, I'll quote his first four posts: + Show Spoiler +On November 28 2011 08:29 Ace wrote:
I will not even read my role PM and still win this game. First thing you guys should do is lynch Palmar and then lynch supersoft. On November 28 2011 08:34 Ace wrote:Also hier and that guy's name that starts with a v were making a lot of sense from my skims. You should protect them at all costs. Everyone else is food. Show nested quote +On November 28 2011 08:32 Hier wrote:On November 28 2011 08:29 Ace wrote:
I will not even read my role PM and still win this game. First thing you guys should do is lynch Palmar and then lynch supersoft. Did you replace a mobster? I roll auto-town in every game I play. On November 28 2011 08:47 Ace wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2011 08:39 Benjef wrote:
Haha I love this Ace guy already. Any reasoning behind your want to lynch Palmer? Hes done a pretty good job of protecting himself so far but I'm still not 100% sold on him. youngminii isn't a bad player at all. In fact he had a decent amount of posts. Let's keep that in mind. In any game of Mafia with a day start everyone that is Town aligned has no information outside of themselves barring special circumstances. Also keep in mind that lynches are used to get rid of Scum. The Mayor gets his 1 time auto-lynch. Who should he lynch? Remember, the Mayor if Town doesn't know who is Scum. He is just as much in the dark as everyone else. So why would you lynch youngminii?The only justification is if he can be proven to be Scum. But it's a day start, hence Palmar doesn't have enough information to justify lynching an active player. Typically you want to lynch someone that is inactive or known to be useless. YM doesn't fit either of these criteria. The Mayor abused his power to get rid of someone who he didn't like. Which even if he was Town-aligned shows our Mayor isn't fit enough for office to think clearly and take dissenting opinions without making a bold move. But Palmar is a decent player (far, far, far below my level but still). So he should know better than to do that. Combine his expected behavior with his ridiculous actions = Scum Mayor. supersoft is terrible so you want to get rid of him asap. Easily sheeped into doing Scummy things. Very possible he is Scum. On November 28 2011 08:51 Ace wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2011 08:43 Hassybaby wrote:Dammit...I was just about to say: Teach me your ways Ace. Be the Boxer to my iloveoov! But back on topic, x you asked me to look at super. Well, I had a read through his posts. Didn't see any major scummy indicators IMO, but then Ace sorta came in, so 'id love to sere what he's gonna say about it. One thing struck me as weird: On November 25 2011 19:46 supersoft wrote:On November 25 2011 19:38 Ciryandor wrote:On November 25 2011 19:26 supersoft wrote:
this game would be much more fun if i were mafia:
i'd play like wbg or redFF, flooding the whole thread with bullshit. Just a question, then why lurk? That's like doing a WIFOM of what you are. I know you think that Sand/Palmar's candidacy are the best bets for town, why not provide support for them and at least downplay others' concerns if you think they're townie and they deserve your support? maybe i dont think that? so far i think only wbg and redff are town. but these two arent capable to be mayor. they're just too spammy/emotional etc. if palmar and sandroba fail to convince me, i am going to try to find someone alse. Something doesn't sounds right there. How can you say they're flooding the thread with bullshit, then say straight after that they're town? They're vets, so they should know better right? supersoft is a typical sheep. However if he's easily pandering to Palmar and handroba to convince him that just reeks of Scum selling his vote (until it hits an ally). Now, contrast that to this game. While the circumstances are very similar, the difference in play seems night and day. The Ace in this game is not the same town Ace that I enjoyed watching play in XLVII. In this game, he is not worried about catching scum or providing direction to the town. He is only worried with wasting time and doing enough to make himself look good.
Now, I'll talk a little bit about VE and his logs. Firstly, there's no reason to believe that The Mirror is actually a third party recruiter. All we have to support that idea, is The Mirror's word, which for obvious reasons we cannot trust. In fact, it makes sense to me that The Mirror is a scum mason. VE already outed BH in the thread as masoning him, and had outed The Mirror rather quickly as well. Scum would know this, so by masoning VE, they can nearly assure that he will report back to the thread with what he was told. This puts the idea in the thread that there's a third party recruiter, which would cause mass confusion for town. If town thinks there's a third party, they're going to start looking for third party players that don't exist. They're going to point out people as being third party, they're going to want to kill people for being third party, and later in the game when no third parties have flipped, town will get nervous and start looking for third party under the assumption that there's quite a lot of them by now and therefore they're a present threat that needs to be dealt with. It's a very good, slick, move for mafia, because it costs them nothing (the mason is anonymous), but it causes mass confusion and misdirection in the town from the time it is revealed until the end of the game. As well, I can't really see VE doing what he did if he was actually recruited. Firstly, why out himself or his new ally to the thread, especially at the same time? It doesn't make any sense. It's much better to keep is new faction a secret, so that they can gain strength. Posting it in the thread doesn't benefit him at all. Therefore, it's much more likely that VE was not recruited. So overall, I think The Mirror is very likely to be a mafia mason trying to spread confusion.
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VE I feel like spamming that is more likely to make people vote for you than Ace.
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On March 21 2013 14:54 WaveofShadow wrote:
So looking at the vote count all the votes on VE currently are people who are not likely to return to the thread before deadline, read: sheep voted and fucked off.
There is so much WTF spread over the low count votes I don't even know where to begin.
The only logical choices I see right now are Wiggle/GK/VE/Ace.
Ideally I'd like to leave my vote on GK since I trust DPs read on him and am openly sheeping based on my townread of DP, but the GK lynch doesn't appear likely.
I'm not sure I like the idea of an Ace lynch or a VE lynch so I'm debating moving my vote back to Wriggle. Kita (townread) parked his vote there but I believe it was before Wriggle came back to make his case...I really wish people stuck around more. It's the same 6-7 people doing all the talking here.
Mocsta, same question I asked DP. If we are voting GK now but nothing else changes before deadline, what will you do?
Im taking a stand.. and leaving my vote on GK
if you join us. he will be on 6 votes
ace 5
so i think we can get gk lynched.
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You should probably go back to scib's votecount and check again.
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In response to http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=402057¤tpage=111#2202
Breakdown of Aces case.... its not as good as it reads.. and biases scum points for Ace, and ignores similar behaviour on others present at the same time.
On March 21 2013 14:43 Mocsta wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2013 12:09 Mr. Wiggles wrote:
I want Ace to die. As I'm about to show, he is scum, and his head should roll.
Firstly, I will give an overview of Ace's play this game. So far, he has been:
Promising reads on mafia, but not delivering any.
Pushing a lynch on someone based on the assumption that they are third party, to the exclusion of everything else*.
Talking about general role mechanics/fluff otherwise. - Inactivty != scum - How is this different to others online at the time? - Town and scum both talk about mechanics Show nested quote +When Ace joined the game, he made this post, indicating that he was excited to join the game and start scumhunting: On March 19 2013 11:59 Ace wrote:
I just recently got my role guys, going to read the thread from Day 1 later and start casting votes ^_^ However, since then, he has yet to share a cogent read on who he thinks is mafia. The closest we get to a solid mafia read from Ace is him calling Mocsta scum, with a small amount of justification, but in the hours that follow before he posts again, he doesn't make any sort of push for his lynch or pressure him. As well, the only other read Ace provides is to call WoS town, but more solid reasoning doesn't come until directly after WoS has claimed DT and therefore put the brakes on his lynch. Yes its not a gleaming town post.. I don’t see how this automatically relegates him to the scum bench. Why is not Coag pulled into line by Wiggles for calling WoS town? Show nested quote +Since then, the only thing Ace has provided are more promises of finding mafia and pushing the lynch onto VE based on an emotional push that plays on town's fears while trying to stopper discussion on other lynch targets. Agreed in full Show nested quote +He makes this post asking town to stop talking about other lynch targets and to lynch VE: On March 21 2013 01:52 Ace wrote:
Stop talking about other people and stay focused on one person at a time. Jesus I don't want to have to teach people how to play my first game back in months.
Just dealwith VE now. Re-read the log: He accepted to join a 3rd party that clearly doesn't have interest in helping the Town. Whether VE is still Townis irrelevant: whatever powers he gets or grants to the 3rd party isn't going to help us. Lynch him now. Treat him like a self aware Miller and just solve the problem immediately. He is then questioned about why we can't scumhunt and lynch VE at the same time, and this is how he responds: On March 21 2013 02:02 Ace wrote:
We aren't going to stop scumhunting: that would be dumb.
But leaving a claimed 3rd party player alive, when it empowers a player we have no idea about is just as dumb. I don't see how this is a difficult concept to understand.
I guess you guys think leaving claimed Serial Killers alive is a good idea as long as they help the town. lulz. On March 21 2013 02:11 Ace wrote:
zarepath, if VE is some kind of 3rd party Vet with more than 1 shot powers he can only die by lynch. I'm pretty sure the Town has some kind of night KP - we find a Scum today and vigi him. Both problems solved. So here he's saying that we should still scumhunt while we lynch VE. However, he has not done that. He has not shared any reads, and he has not provided any information that might help town find mafia to follow his own plan of shooting them tonight. There is no reason not to talk about other scum candidates during the day, even if the decision to lynch VE was unanimous, as it is still time that town can easily use to discuss cases and help formulate targets for a potential vig. Ace has not done this, but instead has continued tunneling on the VE wagon, without feeling the need to do anything else of value, despite posting throughout the day. Yes agreed. I called him out for it. Were there not others online at the same time that did the same thing? I.e. tunnel VE.. Why is only Ace getting scrutinised? I don’t like Ace reasoning for providing no read (that I questioned him about) but.. I don’t see how that response again condemns him to being scum. Show nested quote +Now, I will explain why I find the way Ace is pushing the VE lynch scummy: Firstly, he does not question The Mirror at all. Ace simply assumes that The Mirror is a third party recruiter and that VE has been recruited without taking any time to reflect on the situation, instead opting to sweep up town into a whirlwind of paranoia and confusion. Ace is very quick to spam the idea that VE is third party and that he has to be the lynch, as shown in these posts: + Show Spoiler +On March 21 2013 01:24 Ace wrote:
lynch VE. now. On March 21 2013 01:38 Ace wrote:
your right, it's not like a claimed Vet is a confirmed Town sure to get shot because he is running around popping Scum and didn't just say he accepted an invite from 3rd party.
Stop being ridiculous. On March 21 2013 01:42 Ace wrote:
I dont have one, and I don't think it's important right now.Lynch VE. On March 21 2013 01:47 Ace wrote:
Who CARES if he is a Vet? He just posted logs of him joining a 3rd party and even said fuck the Town. This isn't hard. On March 21 2013 01:52 Ace wrote:
Stop talking about other people and stay focused on one person at a time. Jesus I don't want to have to teach people how to play my first game back in months.
Just dealwith VE now. Re-read the log: He accepted to join a 3rd party that clearly doesn't have interest in helping the Town. Whether VE is still Townis irrelevant: whatever powers he gets or grants to the 3rd party isn't going to help us. Lynch him now. Treat him like a self aware Miller and just solve the problem immediately. Within 30 minutes, Ace has posted 5 times reinforcing that VE is third-party and has to be lynched. In later posts, he continues to overplay the threat of VE that he has established, saying that he has extra powers, that he's unkillable, and that we'd have an unlynchable anti-town player at one point. These don't provide any additional reasons for why VE is scum, instead they only help scare town into thinking VE will become some unstoppable third party if he's left alive. Now, I find this disingenuous, because Ace did not take any time to consider any other possibilities, and he took everything said in the QT at face value. He does not question if The Mirror is actually a third party recruiter, he does not question if VE actually receives powers, he does not question anything at all. Instead, he takes the opportunity of the posted logs to derail the town into a witch hunt and single-mindedly beats in the idea that VE is now third party. Yes and these points apply to many in the thread at the time. I know because I was there. I was one of the only ppl critically challenging the integrity of the logs. Again.. one behaviour that applies to Ace, is not applicable to all the other ppl who made a showing? Show nested quote +Ace is a very good scum player. He has a keen sense of timing and is quick to seize opportunities presented to him in the thread. He played a very lurky style without doing much of anything until he saw his chance and jumped on VE and his QT logs. Since then he has pushed only this idea, which makes it look like he is actually doing something, while he has done nothing at all, and distracts town from hunting mafia.
This is why I believe Ace is scum, and needs to hang. This is very reasonable to say, and makes me indeed suspicious of Ace. I don’t see evidence to hang him that does not apply to others. Again as I said before.. hes taking worst case scenarios.. every decision ace makes is scummy and intentional to derail the town. So to give balance of a case.. he provides a supporting meta that indicates when ace replaced in a game.. he tried to be aggressive and give reads instantly. The corollary.. Ace replacing in a game that is lurking has to be scum. I think this is bullshit.. and is one cherry picked example out of a huge amount of games ace has played. As I said before.. that wiggles had the situational awareness to throw this specific supporting meta in.. is scummy as fuck to me.+ Show Spoiler [meta] +
Supporting Meta: + Show Spoiler +As scum, I find that Ace often likes to waste town's time talking about useless things, while doing only the minimal amount needed to look town. For example, in Sleeper Cell mafia, he got town to talk about a hypothetical situation which had no bearing on the game, wasting time on Day 1. In Wheel of Fortune mafia, he launched town into a discussion of role mechanics and possible set-up plans, distracting from scumhunting and effective play. I see the same sort of play here, with Ace pushing the town into considering third parties and possible recruiters instead of focusing on scum. Additionally, I would like to contrast his play here to his play in Mafia XLVII, which I hosted. In that game, Ace replaced into the game on Day 2, taking on the role of Vigilante. As well, to put things in perspective, at that time there were over 100 pages posted, and the town was in near complete chaos without any strong town leaders or direction. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=285690http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=285690&user=377I was very interested to see Ace's town play that game, and while he was unfortunately modkilled, I think the distinction in play between this game and that one is pretty telling. In that game, Ace was aggressive and assertive, trying quickly to set the town back on track and get them focused on hunting scum. He wasn't scared to share reads and didn't waste time mincing words. To illustrate, I'll quote his first four posts: + Show Spoiler +On November 28 2011 08:29 Ace wrote:
I will not even read my role PM and still win this game. First thing you guys should do is lynch Palmar and then lynch supersoft. On November 28 2011 08:34 Ace wrote:Also hier and that guy's name that starts with a v were making a lot of sense from my skims. You should protect them at all costs. Everyone else is food. Show nested quote +On November 28 2011 08:32 Hier wrote:On November 28 2011 08:29 Ace wrote:
I will not even read my role PM and still win this game. First thing you guys should do is lynch Palmar and then lynch supersoft. Did you replace a mobster? I roll auto-town in every game I play. On November 28 2011 08:47 Ace wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2011 08:39 Benjef wrote:
Haha I love this Ace guy already. Any reasoning behind your want to lynch Palmer? Hes done a pretty good job of protecting himself so far but I'm still not 100% sold on him. youngminii isn't a bad player at all. In fact he had a decent amount of posts. Let's keep that in mind. In any game of Mafia with a day start everyone that is Town aligned has no information outside of themselves barring special circumstances. Also keep in mind that lynches are used to get rid of Scum. The Mayor gets his 1 time auto-lynch. Who should he lynch? Remember, the Mayor if Town doesn't know who is Scum. He is just as much in the dark as everyone else. So why would you lynch youngminii?The only justification is if he can be proven to be Scum. But it's a day start, hence Palmar doesn't have enough information to justify lynching an active player. Typically you want to lynch someone that is inactive or known to be useless. YM doesn't fit either of these criteria. The Mayor abused his power to get rid of someone who he didn't like. Which even if he was Town-aligned shows our Mayor isn't fit enough for office to think clearly and take dissenting opinions without making a bold move. But Palmar is a decent player (far, far, far below my level but still). So he should know better than to do that. Combine his expected behavior with his ridiculous actions = Scum Mayor. supersoft is terrible so you want to get rid of him asap. Easily sheeped into doing Scummy things. Very possible he is Scum. On November 28 2011 08:51 Ace wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2011 08:43 Hassybaby wrote:Dammit...I was just about to say: Teach me your ways Ace. Be the Boxer to my iloveoov! But back on topic, x you asked me to look at super. Well, I had a read through his posts. Didn't see any major scummy indicators IMO, but then Ace sorta came in, so 'id love to sere what he's gonna say about it. One thing struck me as weird: On November 25 2011 19:46 supersoft wrote:On November 25 2011 19:38 Ciryandor wrote:On November 25 2011 19:26 supersoft wrote:
this game would be much more fun if i were mafia:
i'd play like wbg or redFF, flooding the whole thread with bullshit. Just a question, then why lurk? That's like doing a WIFOM of what you are. I know you think that Sand/Palmar's candidacy are the best bets for town, why not provide support for them and at least downplay others' concerns if you think they're townie and they deserve your support? maybe i dont think that? so far i think only wbg and redff are town. but these two arent capable to be mayor. they're just too spammy/emotional etc. if palmar and sandroba fail to convince me, i am going to try to find someone alse. Something doesn't sounds right there. How can you say they're flooding the thread with bullshit, then say straight after that they're town? They're vets, so they should know better right? supersoft is a typical sheep. However if he's easily pandering to Palmar and handroba to convince him that just reeks of Scum selling his vote (until it hits an ally). Now, contrast that to this game. While the circumstances are very similar, the difference in play seems night and day. The Ace in this game is not the same town Ace that I enjoyed watching play in XLVII. In this game, he is not worried about catching scum or providing direction to the town. He is only worried with wasting time and doing enough to make himself look good.
Now, I'll talk a little bit about VE and his logs. Firstly, there's no reason to believe that The Mirror is actually a third party recruiter. All we have to support that idea, is The Mirror's word, which for obvious reasons we cannot trust. In fact, it makes sense to me that The Mirror is a scum mason. VE already outed BH in the thread as masoning him, and had outed The Mirror rather quickly as well. Scum would know this, so by masoning VE, they can nearly assure that he will report back to the thread with what he was told. This puts the idea in the thread that there's a third party recruiter, which would cause mass confusion for town. If town thinks there's a third party, they're going to start looking for third party players that don't exist. They're going to point out people as being third party, they're going to want to kill people for being third party, and later in the game when no third parties have flipped, town will get nervous and start looking for third party under the assumption that there's quite a lot of them by now and therefore they're a present threat that needs to be dealt with. It's a very good, slick, move for mafia, because it costs them nothing (the mason is anonymous), but it causes mass confusion and misdirection in the town from the time it is revealed until the end of the game. As well, I can't really see VE doing what he did if he was actually recruited. Firstly, why out himself or his new ally to the thread, especially at the same time? It doesn't make any sense. It's much better to keep is new faction a secret, so that they can gain strength. Posting it in the thread doesn't benefit him at all. Therefore, it's much more likely that VE was not recruited. So overall, I think The Mirror is very likely to be a mafia mason trying to spread confusion .
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On March 21 2013 14:57 WaveofShadow wrote:
I'm already on GK
ohhh 
well hopefully we can sway someone else
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WoS
u said wiggles case read well.. do u still like it after the poitns I made?
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Alright, time to get down to business. I feel I need to weigh in on a few people before leveling my accusation/support vote.
First things first on WoS. In retrospect it makes sense. Kita's case fitting a red could easily have also hit a DT who was laying low. Combine that with his role check and the logical chain of events explaining his check I'm inclined to agree. I admit my bias is a bit obvious on this one because he checked me and I obviously know he is right. One thing I really want to stress about the claim is how everything came together where at a point it would of been complete suicide for mafia to try to continue pushing WoS.
The second and probably more interesting situation is VisceraEyes. His claim was stupid, his actions in the posted QT were also really stupid and scummy. However on that note, his actions are too retarded for such an experienced player to post a log of himself actually becoming third party and committing suicide. The speculation about how and when he could/will become third party is worth talking about but lets face facts. If VE had actually become third party before that conversation was over he would never have posted the logs because under no circumstance could it help his (new) win condition.
Could VE be converted in the night? Possibly. At that point we can deal with him, but I find it very strange that The Mirror would ask if he would want to join as opposed to just directly converting him which would be extremely reckless to do unless he had no choice. It would be better to Mason --> Convert to avoid the exact scenario we are facing where the hidden third party is no longer hidden.
Now let's get down to how all of this implicates Ace as scum. I'm aware there is a post or two on this topic already but I want to outline my own reasoning and explain how I view the case on Ace.
There are a few minor things that bugged me about Ace during his first few posts but what really got me was when he actually starting talking about situations. The way Ace molded arguments and acted in the thread showed an exceedingly anti town agenda in my opinion.
On March 21 2013 00:27 Ace wrote:
zarepath I think this is a scenario of someone playing badly as Town rather than a Scum screwing up the claim. Unless Wos is running some kind of gamble here, he just looks like someone silly /newbie enough to put his own survival over winning as a part of the Town.
I feel like from the last few pages we have mostly pro-Town players arguing over trivial stuff. We should start looking at the people on WoS's wagon, especially if you believe he is innocent. I would cross-check that with anyone who tried to push keirathi before his/her death at night and the GreyMist lynch. that being said was GreyMist town? the way it's written is ambiguous.
This first post comes right after WoS initiates his role cop claim. Ace wants us to look at the WoS band wagon and analyze those players hard. If we remember how the lynch train started up on WoS it was a bunch of votes very very quickly. The case on WoS was very convincing and without his claim and evidence he would surely be dead. The mafia literally did not need to be on his wagon at all because town was all over that. The mafia at that point could easily slow play this and figure out the effective way to scapegoat and lynch townies for the next cycle knowing this entire cycle would be wasted by a unanimous vote on WoS.
If you could see all of this from a scum perspective it's easy to see how you would know that none/few of your team are on the WoS and you can send the town on a wild goose chase wasting more time. This is a very strong play, but I believe makes it scummy is that he is heavily implying that those on the WoS are likely to be scum starting it up, when the truth is the case was very good and many many town jumped aboard very fast which created an excellent situation for mafia to capitalize on.
The town in this situation should realize that the WoS wagon is not as much lynch bait as you would think at first glance given the situation around the votes and the speed in which the wagon picked up. Dare I say there wouldn't of even been enough time for mafia to coordinate starting up that wagon.
On March 21 2013 01:38 Ace wrote:
your right, it's not like a claimed Vet is a confirmed Town sure to get shot because he is running around popping Scum and didn't just say he accepted an invite from 3rd party.
Stop being ridiculous.
On March 21 2013 01:42 Ace wrote:
I dont have one, and I don't think it's important right now.Lynch VE.
On March 21 2013 01:47 Ace wrote:
Who CARES if he is a Vet? He just posted logs of him joining a 3rd party and even said fuck the Town. This isn't hard.
The claim was stupid and we can acknowledge that. It is very very tempting to go HAM as fuck on VE for something so stupid and I was even inclined to do so myself for a bit. But the way this devolves into functionally being a policy lynch for Ace is a bit meh. I know by the end of the game VE will probably have to die but if we analyze the situation it just does not make sense for him to have posted the logs at all if he was at the time third party. This is super easy to jump on because you have a dumb quote that paints VE really poorly. By itself I would think nothing of Ace doing this since I would expect it from him. One thing that makes Ace a good mafia player is an attempt at consistency in regards to lynching which allows him to utilize that on both town and mafia to push his agenda with only a moderate amount of manipulation. The key with this is to find that manipulation of the scenario and figure out what the agenda behind that manipulation is.
On March 21 2013 01:52 Ace wrote:
Stop talking about other people and stay focused on one person at a time. Jesus I don't want to have to teach people how to play my first game back in months.
Just dealwith VE now. Re-read the log: He accepted to join a 3rd party that clearly doesn't have interest in helping the Town. Whether VE is still Townis irrelevant: whatever powers he gets or grants to the 3rd party isn't going to help us. Lynch him now. Treat him like a self aware Miller and just solve the problem immediately.
On March 21 2013 02:02 Ace wrote:
We aren't going to stop scumhunting: that would be dumb.
But leaving a claimed 3rd party player alive, when it empowers a player we have no idea about is just as dumb. I don't see how this is a difficult concept to understand.
I guess you guys think leaving claimed Serial Killers alive is a good idea as long as they help the town. lulz.
I'm going to start with the obvious here. Note the contradiction. "JUST FUCKING VOTE VE, FUCK EVERYONE ELSE" "OBVIOUSLY WE ARE STILL LOOKING AT OTHER CANDIDATES!"
The VE case and scenario was never as cut and dry as Ace attempted to make it seem with these posts among a few others. VE is not, and only might become a thread to town. Currently we can objectively say he is less of a thread. From a town standpoint it isn't necessarily bad to get rid of VE right now but it is definitely not amazing for us. VE isn't playing too well, he might be/become third party later in the game. But let's look at what it's not. VE is not scum. Scum needs to outnumber both town and third party so getting either lynched benefits them hugely because its one of them off the chopping block. This is a fact. To further drive this home Ace actively trying to turn this into a steamroll by quashing all other discussion and making VE the only person to get voted on. Stifling discussion and focusing conversation and votes on one person helps the mafia because it stifles discussion and limits the amount of information we can get from the entire day.
So with this move Ace is trying to coax a mislynch, and fuck up an entire day of information by stifling town information. This sets scum up for a very powerful day 3 allowing them more kills and giving the town less information while simultaneously eliminating another thread to the mafia.
Win-Fucking-Win. To conclude my case let's use one of his more recent posts.
On March 21 2013 08:17 Ace wrote:
VE look at this from our perspective: You botched your Vet claim as no one is going to claim Veteran under 0 pressure intstead of just saying they took a hit. Even if it's your "meta" - you are aware of it, and know some people here are also. So it would be bad news to claim that.
Second, the 3p thing. You said you lied about accepting his invitation...and posted it in the thread thereby nullfying the purpose of lying. I mean, are you thinking about what we see here? Based on your logs the 3p is going to get stronger once you're in. We really have to lynch you at this point. Doesn't matter that 3p may not be strong now. An anti-town player that can become stronger down the line needs to be dealt with.
So for the last time THINK about this from our perspective and see why you have to be lynched. Those 2 stunts you pulled just don't paint you as town. I also hope you step your game up in the future and stop doing silly shit like roleclaiming just because. This is a damn near policy lynch because of your past behavior.
It's a policy lynch, and it's one you have carefully and continue to manipulate in favor of the mafia. The way you have been directing/conducting the town Benefits the mafia first, and the town a far and distant second.
##Vote: Ace
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On March 21 2013 14:45 TestSubject893 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2013 14:42 WaveofShadow wrote:
DP, thoughts if it comes down to Ace or VE?
I value your opinion sir.
I think I may be forced to vote Ace if it comes down to it, my gut's telling me VE was telling the truth about his retarded 3rd party bullshit. I have to kinda sympathize 'cause I know I could fuck something like that up similarly. Let's say he was telling the truth at the time. There is still a huge possibility that he has since then been informed that he was in fact recruited. Posts like this one make me think that's the case: Show nested quote +On March 21 2013 14:22 VisceraEyes wrote:
geript: Ace is scum. The third party thing is irrelevant. Completely. The only reason I made a big deal about it was because I felt like I was being ignored. But the fact is that if I EVER had any intention of joining a third party faction, or had any inclination that I ALREADY HAD been inducted into a third party faction, I certainly wouldn't post a log that INCLUDES me accepting his offer. There's no reason for me to do that as any alignment but town.
Now, factor everything in. I was shot at last night. Ace has trouble finding scum reads. A wild anonymous mason appears. VE shits up the thread. Ace suddenly wants to lynch VE? The third party thing MEANS NOTHING. Why would Ace prioritize lynching a possible 3rd party over finding scum?
I really don't like the VE lynch. I think that VE is not scum. Also, I think lynching him on the basis that he MIGHT be part of a third party which MIGHT be against our win condition is paranoia. There are already 5-6 scum in this game with 2 KP / night. Are we really supposed to lynch all 5-6 of them AND the mirror AND whoever the mirror recruits each cycle? Seems absurd. I'm skeptical that the VE lynch is a good one EVEN ASSUMING that he is in fact somehow converted to third party. It seems like the only way to "beat" the third party is to lynch the mirror. And VE is clearly not the mirror + Show Spoiler +that would be a mindfuck though
I would vote Ace or GK over VE.
On Ace, the way I see it, he replaced into the game, did hardly anything for a full cycle, and demanded that we lynch VE for being likely third party, which is a sentiment that was and is shared by several other people. I don't think this is very damning evidence. I'm not a big fan of the Ace case.
GK has been blending in for me ever since mid-D1. I don't have any strong feelings on his alignment but overall I just feel like he is more likely to be scum than either Ace or VE.
##Unvote: WaveofShadow
##Vote: goodkarma
I will change my vote to Ace if necessary to prevent a VE lynch.
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Ace (7): TranceStorm, GK, VE, DYH, Wiggles, geript, TPS
GK (5): Vivax, DP, WoS, Mocsta, scib
VE (5): TS893, Ace, CC, layabout, Ryu
Wiggles (3): Coag, zarepath, kitaman
TS893 (1): WF
Mocsta (1): glurio
vivax (1): kenpachi
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A goodkarma lynch is better than an ace lynch today.
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Huh.
TPS's post strikes a chord with me much more than Wriggle's does (not to mention confirmed townie doesn't hurt) as I never seem to remember to think of things from a scum perspective, though admittedly that would be hard for me because in games now I haven't rolled scum.
What Wriggles did and now TPS makes me wonder about the spammy meta that seems to be present in every mafia game I've played. Were posting in the manner that TPS and Wriggle did the norm at on point in time? Huge, overall well put-together, consolidated cases? TPS can we expect more of this from you (if you survive the night, sorry!)?
I know we actually have a shot at getting GK lynched now but damn, TPS.
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DP can you answer my question from earlier? If we can't get the support onto GK where do you see yourself going?
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Wow how are Ace and GK listed ahead of VE and TS893
The only way to avoid a horrible mislynch today is to lynch VE
##unvote
##vote VisceraEyes
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On March 21 2013 15:10 WaveofShadow wrote:
Huh.
TPS's post strikes a chord with me much more than Wriggle's does (not to mention confirmed townie doesn't hurt) as I never seem to remember to think of things from a scum perspective, though admittedly that would be hard for me because in games now I haven't rolled scum.
What Wriggles did and now TPS makes me wonder about the spammy meta that seems to be present in every mafia game I've played. Were posting in the manner that TPS and Wriggle did the norm at on point in time? Huge, overall well put-together, consolidated cases? TPS can we expect more of this from you (if you survive the night, sorry!)?
I know we actually have a shot at getting GK lynched now but damn, TPS.
At one point in time the longest game on this forum was 200 pages. It was a 100 player game that lasts months. There was a beautiful point in time where yes, the norm was long, well thought out posts.
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On March 21 2013 15:10 WaveofShadow wrote:
DP can you answer my question from earlier? If we can't get the support onto GK where do you see yourself going?
Neither. I don't want to lynch ace or Viscera eyes. I would lynch Goodkarma or CC that's it.
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On March 21 2013 15:24 VisceraEyes wrote:
Well this is awkward.
How is that?
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EPT
