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DoctorHelvetica
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DoctorHelvetica
United States15034 Posts
1. When you say the victim of a hit is notified of a doctor save, what does that mean? Does the victim merely know they were protected by a doctor or do they know who the doctor is? 2. If the Radio Announcer masons with someone for a cycle are they barred from masoning with that person again for the rest of the game? Or is there some sort of waiting period like they just can't choose the same person again for the next cycle? I can only assume if the Sheriff is in the game at all that at least 1 of them would be sane otherwise it's a complete detriment to the town. Not all sanities described in the OP are necessarily present if Sheriff's are in the game, right? | ||
DoctorHelvetica
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DoctorHelvetica
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DoctorHelvetica
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I'd hope to see people putting more effort into their accusations beyond "lol this guy is mafia". I'm not sure why he would throw in such a half assed "vote for me" post as mafia, but that's all WIFOM bullshit anyway. On February 26 2013 09:34 ObviousOne wrote: Top scum read probably geript at the very moment. His candidacy for mayor seems like a disaster waiting to happen. Guaranteed mislynch from him as either alignment. Gerpit is the top scum read because he would make a bad lynch regardless if he's town or scum? That's not a reason, you're just calling him stupid more or less. Mafia like to jump on stupid townies don't they? OO has been immediately antagonistic to anyone disagreeing with him also. That's not really indicative of alignment but it certainly isn't protown. Convince me you aren't scum, don't bother trying to explain how Geript is a great scumread because it's not. | ||
DoctorHelvetica
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Wales Fell (or whatever the smurf is) made a good point that pardoner is really only beneficial to scum. But I'm confused why any mayor would announce intention to autolynch pardoner, broadcasting that plan to the scum guarantees that they won't get the role lol | ||
DoctorHelvetica
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1. "Oh, I only did it for discussion" On February 26 2013 09:30 Promethelax wrote: Yes? But the idea of a random lynch is good. You should be able to see why. Assuming you don't suck, which I'm assuming. GREAT DISCUSSION. If, like you claim, you wanted to create a discussion that would benefit the town and reveal peoples intentions you have failed miserably. You have contributed nothing to the discussion. A question was asked of you and you offer absolutely no insight into the point of the RNG, the intentions of your plan, the intention of anything, it's just worthless bloviating. This post is wet garbage. If you want to create a discussion, push your point. That's what town does. Town explains his reasoning, pushes the rest of the town toward his goal. "Hey I'm gonna RNG" and "You're bad player if you don't support RNG" isn't a discussion. You don't have the right to blame the failure of your plan on the rest of the town when you put zero effort into convincing anybody that it was a good idea. Don't dare come out and say you don't really think RNG is a good idea and you only did it as part of some secret scumhunting trap plan because that's bullshit. Please tell me how you planned to find scum or do anything productive this way. 2. RNG isn't transparent. It can't be unless you post a youtube video of you entering everything in and announcing the results. There's no screenshot you can take that proves it was a real RNG. Also this: He focuses on the likelihood of a night kill on gerpit, he is too interested in night actions and not in the candidacy or the actual ideas which gerpit proposes. I'm not a fan of this post or WoS's mentality. This sounds like a vet scum in his team told him what to say, or a really bad fake scumhunting. The ideas which gerpit proposes weren't worth responding to. You didn't respond to them. You don't seem interested in it. You seem more interested in day plans and your own candidacy, how is that any better than pointing out the flawed reasoning in someones campaign? His point about the nightkills is directly related to gerpit's platform for mayor so your entire accusation is a complete wash. On February 26 2013 10:21 Promethelax wrote: Because I wanted it to gain some real traction. I had an idea about actually getting close and withdrawing my nomination since if scum was up for lynch they'd be pushing me as mayor where if there was a townie up for lynch they'd be pushing against me. It's a plan that only works if I get support on it. That was the discussion I wanted to spark. Thanks for finally explaining that. Although that's a plan that only works if you withhold information from the town and again has absolutely nothing to do with any sort of discussion except for the one that the scum might be having in their private chat. I don't understand your pressure on Aquanim either. You called him out for a weak accusation of ObviousOne and all of a sudden he's scummy (the best you had done up to that point is argue with VE and point a finger at WoS for bad reason). You ask him to tell you his scumread (which he had already stated and explained) and all he did was basically say the same thing he already said, but now it's townie? It's really unconfident and nothing about aquanims accusations against OO changed at all. That's my best guess for right now. Feel free to convince me otherwise. Which mayor is going to lynch Promethelax again? | ||
DoctorHelvetica
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On February 26 2013 11:27 WaveofShadow wrote: A thought popped into my head regarding this...it may be absolutely retarded but you guys will let me know that after the fact, won't you? Since the pardoner is inherently more dangerous as a scumrole and the plan to 'kill two birds with one stone' in all likelihood won't (or can't at this point) gain the traction necessary to be carried out, why not give up the role to someone who is likely to be targeted early anyway, or someone who if you are overly suspicious of, you can lynch yourselves anyway? Case and point: a newbie. I graciously offer up myself to be the (possible) sacrificial lamb to do with as you will. If you so choose to lynch me for fear that I am scum, then I go down happily, hopefully bringing as much information to the table as possible before I crash and burn in an epic fireball. If you choose to keep me around, then I will serve the town gladly and I will offer up my pardon to save a deserving person. Since I am new to this whole durned mafia thing, I am likely to be either ignored or an easy mafia target, keeping the role out of scum's reach. WHAT SAY YOU GENTLEMEN actually i just misinterpreted what toades said which is that the town should swing the votes so that the leading lynch candidate is also elected pardoner, i.e. voting for a lynch as such to remove the role from the game entirely not a bad idea but it would be too much of a pain in the ass to orchestrate and mafia shouldn't care enough about the role to put up a fight, certainly gives them a nice platform to throw rocks at anyone who isn't interested in the plan though for not being "pro-town" enough | ||
DoctorHelvetica
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On February 26 2013 11:33 VisceraEyes wrote: I have no intention of fighting with you and if you want to scumhunt with me I'm perfectly willing to do so regardless of your alignment. If anything it should help me get a better read on you no? So why suggest that we scumhunt separately? mafia's goal is to survive and nothing else really, when you're already guilty it's more difficult to push arguments against people you know are innocent, less confidence in it. why argue with you and get lynched if you get elected when he can try to make you stop paying attention to him altogether | ||
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DoctorHelvetica
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Remember the example of the scummiest post ever from Ver's Guide where tree.hugger said (paraphrase) "Yeah, I think youngminii has really great cases against him. Good scum read. Don't think I'm gonna vote for him though." (They were scum teammates in the end, and even if YM wasn't scum that is a damn scummy thing to say) That's exactly the kind of hesitation that's incredibly suspicious and it isn't too far away from what WoS is saying. He's not willing to call Prom scum despite praising my accusation, so what the hell? Not interested in his ramblings about the pardoner either. Why wouldn't scum, trying to get pardoner, try to do so in the most townlike way possible? Why wouldn't scum use the platform of pardoner/mayor as a method to try to buy credibility with town despite the role not being all that useful? Why should I trust someone who spent more effort explaining why he should be pardoner than trying to ensure we lynch the right way today? Why should I take "scumhunting good, bandwagon (pressure is what this really means) bad" as a pro-town sentiment? | ||
DoctorHelvetica
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is this because of that bullshit about how your job as a townie is to prove you're a townie and scumhunting is somehow second to that? | ||
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ace agrees with everything i've said in this thread so far, is everyone on board with me now? i talked to him about it like a billion times. | ||
DoctorHelvetica
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On February 26 2013 12:18 MilkSuckler wrote: DoctorHelvetica.. are you against me voting you for mayor? I don't want to be mayor, no. | ||
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On February 26 2013 12:26 randombum wrote: Just caught up, some thoughts. The idea of setting up votes so the the pardoner is the lynch target seems ridiculous. Here's a crazy idea. What if we try to get scum elected on purpose. The idea is the mayor will probably not last every long in this set-up anyways. My plan is basically we get a scummy person in the thread elected as mayor and get him to lynch the scummiest. Depending on what he does and how the flip goes we can gain a lot of good information. If the mayor is unwilling to lynch the scummiest then we can vig the mayor. If he turns red then we have caught two scum. If he does lynch him and he turns red then good, the scummiest looking player was scum. If the mayor lynches the scummiest and he turns green, then we have to seriously look at the mayor. If the mayor also turns out green, then the town really sucked. Basically we use this vote to choose our lynch target and put a scummy player in the spotlight by making him mayor. While normally having a scum mayor would really suck, the fact that there are no bodyguards make it far less risky because we can simply vig him if his play sucks. I have a crazier idea, what if we instead just try to lynch scum because that's the whole point of this game if you're town. Hear me out, but I think if we lynched scum every day, we would win the game. | ||
DoctorHelvetica
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As town it doubles the huge incentive that mafia already have to hit me and as mafia it doubles the intensity of the spotlight and accusations. The added pressure on either side fucks with my game and I don't play as well in a mayor game. I don't see the role as particularly useful without bodyguards because the mayor is going to be lynched or killed either way. I feel more comfortable on the outside looking in if that makes sense. I'm trying to stop posting too much (as I have been every game and failed in every game). That should be reason enough. If I think the lynch is going in the wrong direction I might run though. @WoS, please don't use your meta as a bailout for bad or scummy play. Just try to improve. Focus on hunting scum and explain your reasoning better. I have zero interests in your ideas about the campaign. If Promethelax is your top scumread, why are you hesitant to push for him to be lynched? Is not the goal of the game to lynch scum? If Prom is town, we all move on with the information we have and continue to push and pressure until the town wins. It's not going to be a perfect victory so don't get caught up in your own lack of confidence. | ||
DoctorHelvetica
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On February 26 2013 12:35 randombum wrote: Why are you treating gathering information and lynching scum as mutually exclusive. This plan involves lynching the scum target and putting another in the spotlight. I could get it if you said something like "this plan would never work because...." or something like that, but to simply dismiss it because gathering information is bad? no one cares about or likes your plan so tell us who we should lynch or who you think the mayor should be. if you want to have a scum mayor, that's essentially the same question right? | ||
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On February 26 2013 11:32 DoctorHelvetica wrote: Why would anyone who is town offer an RNG solution? You seriously pushed it then when everyone called it stupid you say it's just for discussion? Now that I'm reading filters I've changed my mind. Promethelax needs to be lynched. 1. "Oh, I only did it for discussion" GREAT DISCUSSION. If, like you claim, you wanted to create a discussion that would benefit the town and reveal peoples intentions you have failed miserably. You have contributed nothing to the discussion. A question was asked of you and you offer absolutely no insight into the point of the RNG, the intentions of your plan, the intention of anything, it's just worthless bloviating. This post is wet garbage. If you want to create a discussion, push your point. That's what town does. Town explains his reasoning, pushes the rest of the town toward his goal. "Hey I'm gonna RNG" and "You're bad player if you don't support RNG" isn't a discussion. You don't have the right to blame the failure of your plan on the rest of the town when you put zero effort into convincing anybody that it was a good idea. Don't dare come out and say you don't really think RNG is a good idea and you only did it as part of some secret scumhunting trap plan because that's bullshit. Please tell me how you planned to find scum or do anything productive this way. 2. RNG isn't transparent. It can't be unless you post a youtube video of you entering everything in and announcing the results. There's no screenshot you can take that proves it was a real RNG. Also this: This sounds like a vet scum in his team told him what to say, or a really bad fake scumhunting. The ideas which gerpit proposes weren't worth responding to. You didn't respond to them. You don't seem interested in it. You seem more interested in day plans and your own candidacy, how is that any better than pointing out the flawed reasoning in someones campaign? His point about the nightkills is directly related to gerpit's platform for mayor so your entire accusation is a complete wash. Thanks for finally explaining that. Although that's a plan that only works if you withhold information from the town and again has absolutely nothing to do with any sort of discussion except for the one that the scum might be having in their private chat. I don't understand your pressure on Aquanim either. You called him out for a weak accusation of ObviousOne and all of a sudden he's scummy (the best you had done up to that point is argue with VE and point a finger at WoS for bad reason). You ask him to tell you his scumread (which he had already stated and explained) and all he did was basically say the same thing he already said, but now it's townie? It's really unconfident and nothing about aquanims accusations against OO changed at all. That's my best guess for right now. Feel free to convince me otherwise. Which mayor is going to lynch Promethelax again? I demand a response from Promethelax and everyone who does not think Promethelax is scum or actually believe him to be town to explain exactly why in detail. | ||
DoctorHelvetica
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You're letting Prom get away with absolutely zero pressure. He has ignored my case and went on and on about his stupid townread on Grush and you're okay with letting your top scumread just completely ignore the heat? | ||
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On February 26 2013 13:19 randombum wrote: Honestly, I'm not good enough to figure out mafia day one based purely off what people have posted. That's partly why I find a plan which is designed get as much information as possible so appealing. Electing someone mayor that you think is scum doesn't give you any information. Making that decision depends on the fact that you can figure out mafia on day one since you would need to do that anyway to elect a scum mayor. You're not making sense to me. | ||
DoctorHelvetica
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On February 26 2013 12:48 MilkSuckler wrote: Agreed. Until I see a better plan: I am going to vote for someone who is going to lynch my top scum read. My top scum read is still formulating: but I am going to look specifically at players that came in at the start, chipped in a little to blend and then fucked off without actually contributing a thought. Even if a mafia is present among the early contributors (its been like 20-30 pages in <4hrs) its going to be a crapshoot to identify scum out of that group (other than Prome and perhaps WoS who are under heat) Who cares, just make a case if you're going to make a case. Why are you coming in here to announce that you're not confident? Do you want a way out if you can't contribute anything good? Do you have a scumread that I didn't come up with, or anything to contribute? I can't believe that you could write off 20-30 pages of discussion as a crapshoot. Day 1 is harder than Day 2 and it's expected that town will mislynch Day 1, we all know that. There's no sense in pointing it out as an excuse to not try. | ||
DoctorHelvetica
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On February 26 2013 14:10 MilkSuckler wrote: You are misinterpreting the post. I don't have a problem discussing this further with you: but your tone is over the top and comes across more as a drill sergeant spitting in my face. That aside, the post was more so highlighting I intended to vote a mayor who will lynch my top scum read as opposed to all this pardoner bullshit. The extra stuff was added there because I felt it was useful: not everyone has 10k posts under their name Dr. Probably, sorry for being too aggressive but what is the point of making an announcement like that? It makes you sound unsure, Day 1 is difficult for everybody but letting that idea hang over your head is bad for town. The fact that Prom is not responding at all to any pressure on him is really troubling to me. The only reason I can think of is either supreme arrogance or mafia stalling/hoping that my case would blow over. If you were town and a vet came out attacking you would you ignore it to instead talk about how grush57 is a townie because of an extremely specific meta read? How on earth is that helpful or more worth arguing over than your own innocence? Why no OMGUS? | ||
DoctorHelvetica
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Only scum can vote for a mayor with full confidence that they are town. The mayor getting mafia isn't a major problem, they won't have bodyguards and are still liable to be acted on at night. The mayoral election being used to derail the Day 1 discussion into something other than who is scum and needs to die is a major problem because this trend will definitely continue. It's all that simple to me. To be honest, I've seen enough plans go bad that I almost tune out the instant I realize that somebody is trying to implement something, especially on Day 1. The optimal play is whatever ends up with a scum being lynched at the end of the day. There is nothing that can possibly be more optimal than that unless it means even more scum die. I would rather have a scum mayor who gave into pressure and bussed a teammate (knowing he will likely slip up and get pressured later) than a town mayor who lynches some random lurker or an RNG or something dumb like that. To be honest, I don't care about a damn thing other than the result of the lynch. Everything else is noise. | ||
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On February 26 2013 14:40 randombum wrote: Are you purposely trying to mis-interpret me? How does somebody being mayor and how he plays not give you information? Electing someone mayor puts them in the spot light and puts a ton of pressure on them. You admitted this yourself when you said you didn't want to be mayor. What they do with this allows town to understand them better. If I was for sure he was scum I wouldn't make him mayor I would lynch him. Why not just put a ton of pressure on someone because you think they're scum anyway? I don't understand why they have to be mayor or what conditions you would find acceptable. So are you going to vote for your top scumread to be mayor as a form of pressure? Why not just call them out in the thread and try to convince people to lynch him? You can't know whether the person is scum or not and they're going to be pressured as mayor either way so.... I just don't get it. Enlighten me because you've done a poor job of explaining your plan or whatever it is you have. My question is why you think this is somehow more helpful than just old fashioned scumhunting. So far it seems like this is just your way of being able to get away with not actually accusing anybody because you're afraid to. | ||
DoctorHelvetica
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Talking more about Prom is not helpful until he's ready to respond, I demand that he respond to my case in full and explain his reasoning adequately. It's worth noting that Vivax has 2 full pages in his filter with zero content. | ||
DoctorHelvetica
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For instance - either way Prom flips but especially green I'd find Glurio to be highly suspect http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=399294&user=68375 - he contributed nothing then spends his whole filter basically parroting my case and pushing the Prom bandwagon, not necessarily terrible, it only seems suspicious because he hadn't contributed anything before this. I have no problem with townies pushing my bandwagon - that's the whole point of making a case. Is there a reason you were absent until now Glurio? The fact that Prom isn't aggressively defending himself and seems to have basically given up makes me doubtful though. I think ObviousOne (for reasons already mentioned, read posts by Aquanim and the Milkman, I can go more in depth) is likely mafia. I also think vigilantes/detectives ought to look closely through the filter of WaveofShadow and jcarlsoniv with a copy of Ver's Town Guide in the next tab and see what you feel like doing tonight. Vivax is an immediate lynch if Promethelax flips red. Do not allow anyone to derail this. His huge post of reads and little categorizations is the worst post I've seen in this game so far. Not necessarily in pure scumminess, but just in how little substance it has. How unhelpful. I don't care who is "the serious one" or "the jokey one", what the fuck does that have to do with finding scum? My point is - WHY SHOULD ANYONE CARE ABOUT AN UNDEVELOPED READ? - If you're going to spend the game throwing FoS's around and little reads "Oh, I'm leaning scum on DrH, his posting is really aggressive...." "Oh, I think DrH is really towny he's made a lot of sense to me" ^ if that's the best you can do, don't bother. That won't convince anyone. In retrospect I'm not really able to get proper reads out for the early behaviour since it seems that scummy people seem to be scattered across the categories, but I thought I'd make an on-the-go-attempt to use that type of analysis. Oh, good thing I read that huge ass post only to learn you have no fucking opinion. If I can come up with strong reads looking through peoples filters, why can't you put in that work? Oh, you're not looking for scum, you're looking to see who the "serious" and "jokey" players are. What a huge credit to town. I submit that Vivax should be nightkilled. If he's scum, great. If he's town that's a few more long posts that I no longer have to waste my time reading. If Prom flips red, he's done. | ||
DoctorHelvetica
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On February 27 2013 02:05 Vivax wrote: I think the points I mentioned for Prom being scum are more reliable than the ones you use, subjectively. "I have knowledge that Prom is scum therefore I can make a better argument, since he's my teammate and all" ? On February 27 2013 00:27 Vivax wrote: I am null on Prom given how he's been handling his reads of me. "But Prom is my teammate, we should all really lack confidence about this lynch!" How about we lynch the guy that attacked me that one time. I know it was a totally insignificant part of the thread but it matters to me. Everyone pay attention to how great my post was earlier? Did you read it????? Did you read it? I'm town!" | ||
DoctorHelvetica
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On February 27 2013 02:22 glurio wrote: Game started at 1 am my time, had to work this morning and it took me nearly 3 hours to read all those pages, that's why it took so long to contribute. I'd like to hear your thoughts about something other than Prom right now. Do you have a gut scumread that no one has discussed yet? | ||
DoctorHelvetica
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On February 27 2013 02:45 Vivax wrote: I'll fuck off anyway, I'm sure your vet circle will solve this game all by itself. Don't even know why I'm still posting, everything gets ignored when it's not to call me scum. There you go, martyr yourself and get angry as soon as anyone disagrees with you. You want to say I'm not scumhunting? I've nailed scumteams in my sleep, honey. After reading post after post of weak accusations, questions that lead to no pressure and some sort of weird confidence that seems to be centered around your awesome post that I just ripped apart, I'm still looking for the pro-town attitude and I can't find it. After wading through a mire of fluff and inconsequential half-confident reads I found that you seem to think JJ is scum. Curious that your enormous post seems to be more concerned with providing a lot of null/town reads on other players, derailing the bandwagon and NOT with putting any pressure on JJ. If you're town and JJ is indeed your scumread, your mission is to ensure he is lynched today. But instead your mission seems to be to get really butthurt that I called you out on a bad post and try to make sure everyone second guesses themselves about Prom. Explain to me why that isn't scummy. You want to tell me that you're not scummy and just really bad instead? Okay, now don't expect anyone to listen to you for the rest of the game if you're giving up on yourself that quickly. Any vet circle that exists is your mind is a figment of your imagination. Wanna talk about scumhunting still? Go through my filter and tell me I've done anything but put the heat on Prom, demanding he respond, pressuring other people to vote with me. All the time I haven't spent trying to lynch scum has been trying to cut the bullshit out of the town discussion and you're next on the list. You seem to be pretty good at ignoring scumhunting to try to make yourself look good, so try it now and convince me you're town. | ||
DoctorHelvetica
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On February 27 2013 02:42 VisceraEyes wrote: Where the fuck is OO anyway? It's like he's content to be second best read for everyone. That's a place where scum feel safe...snuggly. Vivax is looking a little better since coming back into the thread (in that he's actually contributing meaningfully rather than trolling and fucking off). I don't like him defending Prom though. But I do like that he's analyzing stuff. My platform has changed. I am no longer willing to lynch into Vivax and would instead replace him with ObviousOne. So a vote for VE is a vote to lynch into Promethelax or ObviousOne - whichever one is scummiest to me at lynch time. Right now that's Promethelax, but ObviousOne is gaining on him fast the longer he's absent. I happen to have first-hand knowledge of his thought-process with little information (i.e. if he were town) and he's not showing that to me here. He's showing me something I haven't seen before...lurky, no opinions when he is here, short posts explaining nothing, sarcastic in the face of suspicion rather than concern. I think he scum dude. Are you kidding? Vivax has contributed absolutely nothing. Did you just see the big post and assume it was helpful because it was long? I know you also like this bad playstyle of posting a bunch of half-reads and never getting anything out of it, but it's really not helpful and you shouldn't encourage it. | ||
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You called me anti-town. Do you think I'm scum then? If you think JJ is scum, why aren't you trying to convince anyone to lynch him? One paragraph buried in a post of fluff does not suffice as a case. Let's not forget after I made my case on Prom, no one was pressuring him and VE was arguing in circles with randombum. Hard for me to get information out of someone who won't respond but the fact that he just martyred himself and didn't bother defending the accusations is evidence enough for me. | ||
DoctorHelvetica
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So I admit to that. Thank god Marvellosity and Mattchew aren't in this game or I'd be trying to lynch Mattchew for what Marvel said and vice-versa. | ||
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On February 27 2013 03:28 Vivax wrote: My case on JJ doesn't have a followup cause it isn't actually on JungleJorge, it was supposed to be on MachoMan, of which I found the response to my post to be quite townie. I put the wrong name in there (happens too often lately). There are people who didn't even post since the game started, the reason you're not calling them scum based on general contributions is cause you are biased towards only paying attention to the things in front of you. If you don't bother looking at every player's contribution, then don't bother saying I didn't contribute much, cause I did. Maybe start looking for scum at the playerlist and not just on the last page of the thread. I don't think you're scum, but you don't need to be to play anti-town. I suggest to look for scum among the less active players. Get them to post at least. I'd especially like JJ to give more than just a defence of Prom since he seems to have actually read the thread, thing we can't be sure of regarding hassy and jcarlson. jcarlsoniv is leaning scum for me but there's so little substance there that it's not worth pursuing right now. Lurkers will lurk, I've always felt they should be dealt with last. It's good that some people will pressure them to post, but I leave that up to others and I concern myself with analyzing and pressuring people who are posting. I have looked for scum in the playerlist. For your information I've read 11 filters and I'm working on my reads and cases in an office document, I'm not putting them out there until I'm ready to go in for the kill. I'll pressure, sure, but that's a more in the moment type of thing for me. Always has been. You can read through the playerlist, find a lot of inconclusive/town reads and that's fine. There is no reason to post them in the thread. The important part of your post was the accusation and pressure on machoman and it just kinda got lost in all the other information which was unimportant. Town does not need to know everything you are thinking at all times. So if you no longer think MM is scum, are you telling me you have absolutely no read at this point? How can you criticize me for not putting in effort to find scum when you have no read? | ||
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On February 27 2013 03:31 VisceraEyes wrote: Generally people mix up my icon with like Bugs Kita MZ, so I get what your'e saying. Who's actions were you attributing to me? I'd look but I'm lazy and watching a show right now. A mix of macho man and probably everyone else talking about randombum. I think I'm naturally inclined to be really aggressive toward you so I apologize now for any future false accusations | ||
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On February 27 2013 03:36 layabout wrote: I don't get why vivax made a big analysis post and then ended it with "i guess my analysis didn't really work". It served no purpose other than to demonstrate that he is putting in effort. If he had wanted to share his reads why not simply do so? Don't you see? all information is good information? I think layabout is a null read. There, I've done my part. Put in the work and contributed. I think we should all analyse the people who haven't posted in this game yet. | ||
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On February 27 2013 03:46 Toadesstern wrote: how do you know Matt isn't in the game? huh? im saying i get people confused with eachother in my head and make mistakes because of it. their names both start with Ms and I often think they are the same person when I start getting reckless | ||
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On February 27 2013 03:53 Toadesstern wrote: Have you ever played with Vivax before doctH? Or read a game with him? I'll shamelessly quote myself from the mafia awards 2013 thread: That's the guy you're dealing with... On a sidenote: Hassy you here? I'm not going to put up with people being always allowed to suck because everyone is too afraid to point a finger at someone for being bad based on meta. If it were up to me people like kenpachi/grush57 would be banned for life but since that won't happen at least I can hope after getting lynched a billion times for being bad town they might take a hint and reexamine the way they play the game. What Vivax is doing is consistent with the things I look for to find scum, so I'm not backing down just because he was a stupid town in another game. | ||
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On February 27 2013 04:11 glurio wrote: I think vayesh does make sense in what he posts. Yeah hes pretty much just prodding around but thats kinda what you have to do in the beginning. And he has found good points imo. Jcarlsoniv do you believe prom and vivax are town? If yes, what makes you believe so? Weird that you chose to respond to that specifically. Maybe not, maybe I'm being paranoid. And yes, I'm still pushing Prome for the day. He basically martyred so he should die. I'm working from 1-10 PST tonight so unfortunately I'm not gonna be able to be here to push him. Since all discussion is built on this foundation of lynching Prome, it's the best outcome for us right now. At least for Day 1. I would never say to lynch for information, I absolutely believe he is scum but there is no sense in acting on hunches and getting distracted. Don't fuck it up guys keep focused on the goal of finding scum. Everything else comes second. | ||
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On February 27 2013 06:46 Vivax wrote: Dude start scumhunting wtf are you doing so useless. Why are you tilting so hard? Move on and try to consolidate your analysis better. I'm not going to lynch you if I'm elected so do something better with your time. Also regarding jj - in what way is defending someone supposed to pressure them? If I was scum getting defended by town why would I respond to the defense instead of the others attacking me? What nonsense, vig should consider wasting him tonight. | ||
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Misrepresenting as hell to say all i did was pressure prom a little. I made the biggest case to get the wagon rolling and I nailed wos and vivax to the wall immediately when I got wary of their posts. Even if I'm wrong about prom, my aggression and focus will have the scum sweating. Prom layabout jj geript testsubject vivax Gg no re If you don't trust me, don't vote for me. If you're suspicious of me have the balls to call me scum. If your goal is to discredit a player who is scumhunting aggressively then you're not helping, especially if you can't point out how my case is so flawed, or honestly represent my post history. Geript has admitted only that i make him nervous and i doubt the town feels the same way. Hmmm who might react that way then? Prom dies today, everyone else gets pressure. I'll save my next case for when it matters because splitting the wagons now does no good. If you're just coming in now to discredit active townies after being absent from all productive town discussion, kiss your scum ass goodbye and learn how to play next time. | ||
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On February 27 2013 11:17 geript wrote: Fine then Dr. You think I'm scum. Bring the case. You're not getting lynched tonight, so it would be a complete waste of my time. Pressure makes mafia crack and form cases. Cases are to get mafia lynched. I could throw out more cases now but it wouldn't be productive. That case would get buried and then day 2 discussion would go in a different direction. Focus is important. | ||
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As far as interest in mayor again I've made it clear I don't care who is elected. Only who is lynched. If a scum mayor wins and busses prom thats a town victory in my book. I'm only now saying if people would rather vote me, then its fine. How this an obvious scum ploy to grab pardoner i don't understand. Geript, should I be lynched today? Straight up do you think I'm scum? | ||
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I decided I would be alright with people voting for me because at the time I was unsure about what VE would actually do with his lynch and people were becoming fairly less confident in Wade Fell. I want prom dead today and the only way I can ensure that happens is by becoming mayor. I'm a huge target for scum regardless, so that doesn't really matter much at this point. If you don't accept that reasoning and still wish to claim that I am trying to sneak into pardoner, then there is absolutely no logical reason that you aren't sure I am scum at this point. I think it is because you are mafia therefore KNOW I am town and are afraid to really call me out. Sowing seeds of mistrust, discrediting me, trying to rouse suspicion among the town and see if anyone bites, classic techniques for a mafia afraid to actually start a bandwagon. So do it. Convince the thread I am scum. Anyone following your reasoning to the logical conclusion can only decide that I am mafia, so don't beat around the bush. As far as Prom flipping green affecting my future scumhunting, it really wouldn't. I'd never build a serious case around Player A defending Player B because it's WIFOM. It is certainly context that is important to a case, but the real methods used to determine whether or not a player is scum is the intention of their logic. I wouldn't simply look at the fact that a player defended or voted or whatever for a flipped town/scum, what's important is how they did it and that kind of behavior remains the same regardless of what the flip is. The only thing that might change is I'd become slightly more inclined to believe JJ is stupid rather than scum. The particular scum motivations I see in his bait-switch with Prom only make sense if Prom is scum. However, regardless of the flip I would still need to reread JJ's filter. | ||
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I remember reading something from WoS that made me extremely suspicious earlier but I actually don't remember what it was, so I'll have to revisit that later. I can't hard-pressure everyone at the same time, although I do try sometimes. | ||
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On February 27 2013 15:57 MilkSuckler wrote: It wasnt a bad suggestion yes. BUT IMHO its not alignment indicative. Its an easy stance to take (especially for a guy that has played in a setup with the role before) Further, yes the pardoner might save a lynch; but it effectively makes the pardoner the lynch the next day. I can see scum suggesting to throw this role away no probz. Especially early day1, before the QT is fully organized. Agreed on all other points. Scum uses pardoner to force an earlier LYLO, not to save the first teammate on the gallows. It can actually be the difference between winning/losing later in the game. It's not entirely insignificant. | ||
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On February 27 2013 15:57 VisceraEyes wrote: But you're prescient enough to know his plan right? The pardoner thing, yeah. I find his logic extremely difficult to follow so I usually just skim his posts. | ||
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On February 27 2013 16:06 geript wrote: @Mocsta&Dr.H I need to get sleep before class in the am. I'll be back to answer these around noonish hopefully. @WF I'll answer you then too when I'm a bit more clear headed. I asked you a yes or no question, but alright. On February 27 2013 18:30 Vivax wrote: This post made my scumdar go off, this guy asked two questions about OO earlier but stopped pushing him despite posting the posts at the bottom earlier. He's currently agreeing with VE on Toad, but he never pressures Oo despite having a scumread on him, he just keeps asking others about their opinion on him. I asked questions of WoS and then stopped pushing him to discuss something else. I stopped pushing you to discuss something else. ObviousOne has actually been a fairly big part of the last 5-6 pages of discussion, so if anything Aquanim did his job. This reads off as a desperate attempt at deflecting suspicion onto a player that has done literally nothing scummy. Maybe I do have to read your last game as town to see if your play is usually this nonsensical. Otherwise, I'll likely be pushing you tomorrow. | ||
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I care about the election as a means to an end - to the day 1 lynch. I look at the election as nothing more than a lynch vote. I do not care about the ROLE, only the decision. What was your idea again, I don't remember making any comments regarding a plan of yours or anything. You'll have to deal with the fact that my train of thought isn't clear. I will never tell town straight up what I want to do tomorrow, who I'm suspecting in my head, or give any kind of list of reads or anything like that. I hate that style of play, I think it's cancerous and I won't do it. This bothers a lot of townies and they feel like I'm not transparent enough or something. I say they should go read Ver's guide again. If you really are having a hard time understanding my logic/methods, just ask me and I'm fine with explaining them as long as I feel it serves a purpose. By the way - a player asking a lot of questions/avoiding heavy analysis isn't indicative of scum by itself. Certain players like VisceraEyes, just play that way. Bothers me, but it does put some form of pressure so it's not completely wasteful. Particularly I find that newer players like to ask questions and put on pressure while parroting veteran players who write longer cases, or they choose instead to expand on them. What you can (and should) look for are statements/attitudes like this (on a player who does not scumhunt/put heavy pressure on anyone): -Why aren't you scumhunting? -Any post containing an FoS where irrelevant information (town plans, mayors, RNGs, null reads, etc.) are 80% of that post i.e. the accusation is just a postscript in a long post of bullshit -Yeah, I'm gonna scumhunt tomorrow, I just need some time to keep reading filters /im waiting for the flip but Day 2 im gonna kick ass... -Asks questions/accuses only or almost only players that are not being discussed/have very few posts/seems to be diverting attention away from current discussion @Hassybaby - Why do you think Vivax is scum? Have you been reading the thread up until this point? It would be nice to hear from you, because right now almost all your posts are defending yourself when you are in basically no danger of being lynched. I find that a little worrisome. | ||
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Let's say we have Player A and Player B. Player A is the leading candidate for a lynch on Day 2. Many players are accusing him aggressively. Player B defends Player A. He says that Player A has seemed very town-like to him so far in this game and he's not understanding the logic that some people are using to attack A. He would prefer to lynch Player X. Player A is lynched at the end of the day and flips mafia. What do we do now? Do we lynch Player B? Some people would say yes, but their instinct is most definitely wrong. From that information alone, I can not know if Player B was a helpful mafia teammate or a misguided town. In most games where I was scum, at least one townie has defended me in thread. In most games where I am townie, I have defended someone who was scum at some point or another. Like I defended WBG in Storm Mafia in favor of lynching VisceraEyes who was town. These things happens. So the real way we determine if Player B was mafia or not is we look back at his filter and go through the usual checklist of things that are scummy. Did his defense of Player A seem to come from a place of genuine misunderstanding, tunnel vision on another player, or plain old stupidity? Then that doesn't seem very mafia like. Is the rest of his post history scummy? Chainsaw defense? Wishywashy? Inherent guilt? Those are the real metrics we use to measure someones guilt. A flip is just context, it's useless until you plug that information to that filter. So whatever Prom flips doesn't really change guilty because anyone that looks scummy already (or town already) should look the same way whether Prom is town or scum. It definitely pushes back the JJ read for me, only because of the odd nature of his defense, but those kind of things don't happen that often. Even still, mafia will definitely defend townies up for lynch. ObviousOne (who is obviousscum as far as many of you are concerned) has buddied hard to me earlier in this thread. I've defended and buddied town players as scum, it's a survival tactic. Even if Prom flipped green, if I go through JJ's filter and see him showing signs of scum behavior, I will likely conclude he is scum regardless of the flip. It shouldn't matter that much. | ||
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On February 28 2013 02:15 The Milkman wrote: They also make tracking additional deaths during the night from possible vigilantes a little harder. But that's just additional info for personal consideration because as always WIFOM argument is here to stay. I don't get it why try to pin someone down as SK. That's just as meaningless as trying to determine what smurf is who. Also DrH, you'd rather see yourself elected as pardoner or BH? i dont care who is pardoner or mayor as long as promethelax is lynched | ||
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On February 28 2013 02:22 layabout wrote: Blabber:I thought we had a 72 hour day 1 i had read the daypost more than once as friday not thursday sometimes my brain just does that. Also it seems that prom is being lynched whatever happens. So i wasn't as bothered about finding scum. My preference for mayor was Dr.h because there was a chance he might lynch jcarl and i wasn't sure about VE's campaign. I have also been trying to have more of a thread presence while i am here because over time i consolidated more and tended to lurk as both town and mafia. In fruity my last game if i hadn't been correct in pushing yamato i would have made a good lynch because of my lurking. I also was not the one able to push the lynch even though i put the most content up about him. I also tend to wait before commiting to reads because people don't have much time to post meanfully early on and i like to take my time to sort out my thoughts. With regards to Prom, read his filter and tell me why it should be different if he is town, i feel like he has done what he should as town and thus does not deserve to be lynched. Grush is there because i think he filter was a lot better in fruity and there are other players that look more towny than he does. I defended you due to both the scumhunting point and the fact that i think your town, in part because of your reaction to the vivax analysis. I don't think i was clear enough when i talked about the lack of scumhunting initially but there isn't much i can do about it now. Town doesn't martyr themselves and give up when they have a ripe chance to defend themselves. Town also doesn't (r shouldn't rather) put up bullshit fluff, put no effort into it, then later claim it was for the purpose of productive discussion. I hate this kind of defense, that you can just say any useless thing then later say you were just looking to see how people would respond. What kind of response are you looking for? You're being so passive this game and it's really bugging me. I'll be taking a close look at you later. | ||
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On February 28 2013 02:35 layabout wrote: What martyring? I haven't pushed scum because i don't have a player that i think is scum and want to push in thread. +what i have i claimed was in the purpose of productive discussion? I'm talking about Prom. | ||
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On February 28 2013 04:15 WaveofShadow wrote: And so the herd is herded. Something about this really bothers me. Maybe it's because since the Prom lynch has basically been in effect and agreed upon by most everyone in the thread since like hour 3, it makes it very easy for anyone to manipulate what people do based on this. [conspiracy theory] VE is set up on an easy case thanks to easy Prom bus and entire town puts him on the road to election. He slowly gets more and more waffly so that eventually people move off him, knowing that the town will go wherever prom gets lynched and suddenly pardoner becomes an easier role for mafia to attain. [/conspiracytheory] Obviously this isn't entirely likely and probably not a worthy bus if it was set up from the beginning but there are other ways in which the super early decision of a Prom lynch can benefit, including but not limited to the ability to hide all fucking day. Prom had better be mafia at this point, considering how much confidence was put into this without trying to adhere to any of the plans anyone else has come up with. Very town thinking - silly but very town. Consider my fos on you erased. Not that I care who gets pardoner, but no way mafia is thinking about this kind of thing imo | ||
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I'm kind of checked out until the end of the day. The same discussions keep going in circles and now is the worst time to start pressuring people so I'll be reading on my own. You guys will know what I think when it matters. | ||
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On February 28 2013 07:33 VisceraEyes wrote: Kind of stupid? Bad? Fuck this and fuck you both. Yeah, you have some really bad habits and they haven't changed since the last time I've played with you. Do you want to ragequit over that? I don't have to like the way you play, you can still be productive if you try to listen instead of getting angry. Don't be so scattered, if you're going to be mayor it's your responsibility to be an asset to the town and try to promote a good atmosphere, the opposite of what you're doing right now. | ||
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On February 28 2013 07:34 VayeshMoru wrote: VE has day vigi'd people who he knew were town (as town) to attempt to get someone he wanted lynched. He has revenge killed people for getting him lynched on bad play. He has countless number of examples of this style of play. You pushing for him this hard after his flip flopping of who he'd lynch compared to the steadfastness of Bh and drH baffles me. I have a feeling scum don't like the idea of me having 2 votes and medics on me every night. | ||
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On February 28 2013 07:39 The Milkman wrote: You mean people would not protect you anyway? It all reminds me of poor Radfield. Dunno, hopefully geript/layabout isn't a medic | ||
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Oh, I see. I'm probably going to ask vigilantes to kill you tonight, but I'm glad to hear that anyway. | ||
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On February 28 2013 07:53 Toadesstern wrote: I don't really feel like it given that I asked to be replaced out or I'll ragequit this game because of VE. I'm sadly not allowed to do either so again, I'll have to deal with his stupidity and the way I do that is by flaming back everytime he shoots at me and trying to ignore him as much as I can in the meantime. Yeah I know completly ignoring him would be better but it doesn't work that way for me. For references something from 2 (? or 3?) games ago. Talking with syllo (he wasn't in the game): + Show Spoiler + Original Message From syllogism: Okay, I just hope you won't do that when I'm playing =P You could try defending yourself reasonably and not letting him get to you. If he's going to act that way, let him be the only one. Don't let it be a cancer to the town. | ||
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On February 26 2013 18:25 JungleJorge wrote: I believe promethelax is innocent and I may expand on that if necessary, but it should be painfully obvious to anyone reading this thread how much traction this wagon got based on very poor reasoning by most of you. Much of the "scummy" behavior you have been pointing out is exactly the opposite of what scum normally tries to accomplish when they post. I suggest you revisit prom's filter and think about why he would post some of the stuff he has posted if he was indeed scum. I plan on being more specific later, but I'll give you guys some time to figure it out by yourselves. I would also like you to take a look on The Macho Man, as he is my best guess for scum amongst the "active" posters. Again, I'll come back to expand on this as well. See you guys in a few hours. MachoMan is the easy choice. A trolly player who has been mostly unclear about his intentions. Surprised he wouldn't go for Vivax, but I think Vivax is scum anyway so that would explain it. But first, let's deconstruct this gem: Promethelax is likely scum. I made that post specifically to see how he would react (as you noticed I didn't provide any reasons). Mostly my concerns were that too many people were pushing for his lynch and there was no opposition to it. Also the main reasons for the suspicion on him was some sudden change of mind or some controversial behavior, and those are normally townie traits. The thought begins by establishing that JungleJorge thought Promethelax was scum all along. He then claims the point of his defense toward Promethelax was to get a reaction out of him. 1. Why would a townie looking to pressure someone they think is scum do so by defending them? 2. Why would a townie ever intentionally defend someone they suspect of being scum? 3. Imagine you are scum being assaulted by town. Along comes a townie to defend you. In what way does this illicit a reaction or response from you? Would you thank him? Why wouldn't you just focus your response on your accusers to try to get free? The fact that Promethelax even responded is INCREDIBLY canned and staged. After all those people hammering him, the person he suspects is the single person defending him? Idiotic. This was a staged argument imo. "Now onto his reaction to my post: as town he would never come to the conclusion that I'm scum in that spot. What would be my interest as scum in defending a player everybody else thinks is scum? For town cred?" - This is absolute nonsense. If you are scum, you would know who is confirmed as town. The reasoning is simple, defend the mislynch then reap in the cred when the person flips green. "I'll refrain from expanding my thoughts on macho man from now as to not derail this lynch." - Great. Vig JungleJorge. Out of everything happening before Prom left the game, he chooses to focus his response on JJ's defense? I don't think so. | ||
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On February 28 2013 09:41 The Milkman wrote: Well, JungleJorge's plan reminds me about one of my crapshoot plays in my early days but... Well, it was too abstract and wrong. Like I am not going to stop you, but I think we might have better alternatives. Just a gut I feel somewhere. As for layabout, as a person who played with him and things did get tense in the past in the games we played I am not that sold he is Mafia, but I'd be glad to read your case and talk about my doubts then, so we have something concrete to talk about. My read on layabout was based on a misunderstanding which I corrected upon reading his filter. I feel that he's likely town after doing that. He didn't appear nervous or eager to distance himself from me after I attacked him, so that's good too. Having gut feelings is ok, use those to guide you when you decide where you're going to look and use your brain. Then you make a decision. | ||
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Vigilante - shoot JungleJorge tonight. On February 26 2013 18:25 JungleJorge wrote: I believe promethelax is innocent and I may expand on that if necessary, but it should be painfully obvious to anyone reading this thread how much traction this wagon got based on very poor reasoning by most of you. Much of the "scummy" behavior you have been pointing out is exactly the opposite of what scum normally tries to accomplish when they post. I suggest you revisit prom's filter and think about why he would post some of the stuff he has posted if he was indeed scum. I plan on being more specific later, but I'll give you guys some time to figure it out by yourselves. I would also like you to take a look on The Macho Man, as he is my best guess for scum amongst the "active" posters. Again, I'll come back to expand on this as well. See you guys in a few hours. MachoMan is the easy choice. A trolly player who has been mostly unclear about his intentions. Surprised he wouldn't go for Vivax, but I think Vivax is scum anyway so that would explain it. But first, let's deconstruct this gem: Promethelax is likely scum. I made that post specifically to see how he would react (as you noticed I didn't provide any reasons). Mostly my concerns were that too many people were pushing for his lynch and there was no opposition to it. Also the main reasons for the suspicion on him was some sudden change of mind or some controversial behavior, and those are normally townie traits. The thought begins by establishing that JungleJorge thought Promethelax was scum all along. He then claims the point of his defense toward Promethelax was to get a reaction out of him. 1. Why would a townie looking to pressure someone they think is scum do so by defending them? 2. Why would a townie ever intentionally defend someone they suspect of being scum? 3. Imagine you are scum being assaulted by town. Along comes a townie to defend you. In what way does this illicit a reaction or response from you? Would you thank him? Why wouldn't you just focus your response on your accusers to try to get free? The fact that Promethelax even responded is INCREDIBLY canned and staged. After all those people hammering him, the person he suspects is the single person defending him? Idiotic. This was a staged argument imo. "Now onto his reaction to my post: as town he would never come to the conclusion that I'm scum in that spot. What would be my interest as scum in defending a player everybody else thinks is scum? For town cred?" - This is absolute nonsense. If you are scum, you would know who is confirmed as town. The reasoning is simple, defend the mislynch then reap in the cred when the person flips green. "I'll refrain from expanding my thoughts on macho man from now as to not derail this lynch." - Great. Vig JungleJorge. Out of everything happening before Prom left the game, he chooses to focus his response on JJ's defense? I don't think so. | ||
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The other obvious answer there is to defend a teammate, but WoS actually pointed out something I was thinking earlier. I think Promethelax's bus was decided very early by scum due to his activity issues. I need to take a close look at Toadesstern. I'm less confident about JJ than I was before, his interaction with Prom is way way way damning for Promethelax (he essentially claims scum in his last post) but I might be hitting a bad townie here. Either way, it's a fair shot and wasting a vig bullet on a problem player is better than wasting a lynch in my opinion. I'll be rereading the filters of JJ and Vivax in the meantime since Vivax plays into this as well. I'll try to roll out my final thoughts before N1 is over incase I'm hit, otherwise I'll save my next big push for Day 2. For now, I want to discuss the nuances of JungleJorge's logic. Let's give the metareads on grush a rest for right now. At least JJ should be able to defend himself. | ||
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I can not see the motivation for scum to respond to and attack his sole defender unless that sole defender was inserted as part of a mafia bus. It's too entirely convenient that JungleJorge got just the response he was looking for when he went about applying pressure in a completely backwards way. I need a much more comprehensive explanation of your reasoning JJ. | ||
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On February 28 2013 11:16 The Macho Man wrote: when i feel like it brah i lik mye town reads they are easier and almost always right. Your town reads are worthless to us and you're going to get lynched down the line if you play like this. | ||
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On February 28 2013 11:17 JungleJorge wrote: My light went out right after I proposed to elect prom pardoner, so I was unable to be more useful with my vote. I will be glad to be lynched/vigged whenever I'm wrong about someone. Until then I ask you to bare with me. And stop calling me bad because it's irritating and most of you doing it suck. I did conclude that prome was mafia and ended up voting to lynch him. Now, you may believe I'm scum and was bussing, but until then I'd like to have my posts read and not dismissed. I am reading your posts, help me understand them. I wrote quite a bit, feel free to respond to it in detail if you would. Why would you be glad to be lynched for being wrong? When is a person being wrong ever a justification for a lynch of vig shot? | ||
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On February 28 2013 11:45 JungleJorge wrote: I actually didn't. I was honestly leaning town on him until he made such response. Some aspects of his play looked suspicious, while others were too loose and carefree, thus town looking. I opted to make a defense without stating my reasons to get responses mostly from other players who were not commenting on his lynch. I suspected that if I started the trend and he was scum soon enough other players would join me and provide their own reasons. Obviously what I got was much better, basically a scum claim from prom in my eyes. That helps me a lot. Thanks. I'll be reading elsewhere tonight then. | ||
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Attacking his defender is basically impossible logic for town. If prom was town then jj would have been correct, there would be nothing to criticize. | ||
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On February 28 2013 11:54 MilkSuckler wrote: Yes; but JJ talks as if the reaction was intentional. Maybe hes a super duper mafia player or whatever, but yeah, I dont see how that action is claimable for town cred. If anything the action of prome, sealed his fate.. but also leaves JJ as null/leaning scum (I outlined reasons before) I thought so too but apparently I misunderstood. | ||
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The way he reacted to me initially calling me out is troubling. He didn't OMGUS but did have a bunch of insults and mockeries to throw my way. I'm getting kinda woozy and doubtful, I hate night 1 because I start rolling over in second guesses. I need to reset my head. I'm nowhere near ready to start reading Toades' filter, I'll need at least 2 more beers before I attempt that. | ||
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On February 27 2013 11:05 ObviousOne wrote: Take another look started where I began posting ~9 hours ago or whatever and tell me what issues you have with that outside of me asking people questions that I want answers to. If it's still "seeming interested" then yeah, maybe you're right. I'm actually pretty bored with D1 right now. I'm contributing of my own volition, not because you're asking me to. I could lurk like fuck and skate by like the other cats who have decided to not play on D1 much or at all, but here I am bearing my thoughts and I am mostly getting shit on for it. Yeah, that's about the end of it I guess. Vig ObviousScum. | ||
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Geript's fourth point against you makes enough sense that you should at least explain yourself, VE. | ||
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VE, I only meant that I'm curious why you would step down if you had confidence it would be okay to just push Prom Day 2. Just fear of a nightvig for not killing Prom or what? | ||
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On March 01 2013 04:37 geript wrote: Dr.H I have you on null plus now after rereading your posts. A liar, ok, but that in and of itself isn't damning and not enough to get you lynched. While I'm not fond of lying in this game in general, I can at least admit to it's usefulness at points. You're keep your own council as is evident by your posts. Yes I thought about both of you being scum, but both of you being scum makes very little game play sense in the long term as I would expect (as town) you'd be likely to be targeted early or reasonably early. I forget which game it was that I had read previously, but it's like the unwritten rule about Marv; in LYLO, lynch Marv. Makes very little sense in any regard to have 2 people run, passively or actively, for mayor/pardoner. Of the two, VE looks far more like scum to me than you. But I didn't lie. I ran for mayor because I only trusted myself at that point to lynch Prom. I wasn't terribly invested in the actual role itself. That's not quite the same as a lie. | ||
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On March 01 2013 05:10 VisceraEyes wrote: Doc I really wish you'd look over OO. I am relatively certain he's scum and you keep ignoring posts I write about him and interactions I have WITH him. I'm not intentionally ignoring it, I just haven't been able to sit down and read for more than like 20 minutes at a time. | ||
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On March 01 2013 05:46 geript wrote: So are you trying to say now that your capsrage wasn't a planned move to try and move Dr.H into the mayor slot intentionally? I know you're newer but me being totally disinterested and not explaining my trains of thought and VE flying off the handle into capsrage is nothing new. It happens in every game. There's nothing sinister about it, it's a personality issue. | ||
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On March 01 2013 05:11 geript wrote: I didn't say that I changed my mind on your attempt to run for Mayor instead of pardoner. Just that I felt like you lied about your attempt to run for mayor. In reviewing your posts, I stepped back and it looked (to use a previous analogy) more like Apollo in searching for the right guy than a underhanded attempt at pardoner. No, it was because there was doubt at the time that Prom would be the lynch target so I said I wouldn't mind being mayor. Campaigning isn't really my thing, it's easier for me to try to convince people they should kill Prom than it is to convince people they should vote for me as mayor. I'm trying to avoid my tendency to strongarm my way into being the most significant/talkative player in the game. I posted this on my phone in the parking lot at work as well so it's not like I really had time to push a campaign. My breaktime was better spent reading the thread and trying to absorb as much information as I could. | ||
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On March 01 2013 06:10 geript wrote: Well then DrH, is it like him to play towards the group in allowing someone else to be elected because that what 'the town' wants? It's like him to get really offended by criticism and throw everything he worked for out the window. I'm still unsure about his attitudes, why he would drop his convictions to support a lynch he wasn't 100% determined on, but VE approaches this game from a headspace I don't really understand. Right now, I'm more concerned about Toadesstern. I'm convinced that Promethelax was a bus that was planned much earlier than we might think and the fact that Toadesstern used that lynch to arrogantly pat himself on the back and yell about his town cred is very suspect to me. | ||
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On March 01 2013 06:18 VisceraEyes wrote: I guess I have to ask why you never commented on this fact when I brought it up DAY ONE Doc. It was just as relevant then as it is now, considering how strong your opinion of "scumProm" was - his flip shouldn't have changed that much for you. Because I have a very limited time reading this thread and I can't direct my attention everywhere at once. I've been trying to avoid thinking about Toadesstern for a long time because I have a hard time understanding his posts but I really can't do that at this point. | ||
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On March 01 2013 06:20 VisceraEyes wrote: But we're talking about my posts Doc - it's not about reading Toad's posts or OO's or anyones...we're talking about "Direct Mayoral Opposition" posts. Yeah, I remember you yelling about Toadesstern and thinking that I don't really have time to read into it. I can't just take your word on it because you said he was scum. I'm inclined to agree with you now, so what is the problem? | ||
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On March 01 2013 06:22 VisceraEyes wrote: It's even consolidated and sucinct like you like - same with the OO case you "didn't have time to read". I admit my interest level in this thread hasn't been what it should be. I'll correct that, just relax. | ||
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On March 01 2013 06:23 VisceraEyes wrote: Well now he's the leader of a scum wagon Doc. I wanted to lynch him yesterday and was called bad and stupid for it. I would have wanted to go forward with the Promethelax lynch anyway since the idea that Toades is bussing depends on knowing Prom's alignment, right? I was upset with you because you were spamming and having a poor attitude. I don't think you're stupid for suspecting Toades, I never did, I just wasn't willing at the time to do the work required to consider that case. | ||
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On March 01 2013 06:26 VisceraEyes wrote: ........... Like there's no response to that...whatever, do what you can. I'm waiting. It'll be a while, I have a lot of errands to run. I've said over and over that I'm not able to have the ideal activity level in this game so I'd appreciate not being unfairly criticized for reading everything that everyone would like me to read. I'll contribute as best as I can, when I'm able. That's just the best I can do. Sorry for being malicious. I'm going to read as much as I can on Toadesstern, ObviousOne and maybe some others tonight, assuming I can make it home before the deadline hopefully I don't die tonight. I think we should keep talking about Toadesstern though, everyone seems to agree it's troubling the way he handled the lynch results. I'm inclined to believe at this point that WoS is town because of his focus on conspiracy theories and that geript may be town because of the extremely convoluted way he is approaching scumhunting. I have a big problem with the way Vivax is playing but finding it hard to find scum motivations in there, the way he structured his large post was based on some big misconceptions (about what constitutes scum play and about what is useful to town) but I'm not convinced it's scummy. I will have to look at Vivax again because the 10 minutes I spent last night while drunk wasn't sufficient. Vivax - what do you think about Toadesstern? Do you think mafia had a plan for Day 1, where do you rest on that? | ||
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On March 01 2013 08:35 Toadesstern wrote: Guess there can't be anything done about people not having a clue... Anyways shoot Macho / Grush and one out of BC / chez. There'll be 2 or 3 mafias in there imo. The lynch on prom wasn't easy because it was an early bus (I know I'm town I am pretty damn certain VE and Laya are just being stupid right now) but because noone did something against it. I'd say that means we have a vet on team mafia who wasn't around or wasn't active. That's BC and Chez for me right now. Maybe Dr.H because he started being active late but that's unlikely. Don't lynch VE if someone was really stupid enough to shoot me because of what people said lately and don't listen to any "one of VE/Toad has to be mafia crap". We're both really egocentrical, both really volatile, both really proud, both resentful and those kind of attitudes easily clash with each other. So despite still being really angry about this game and being told I'm mafia for *insert random towntrait here* I realy don't think he's mafia. Look for people who kept on telling bullshit about how we should be lynching into anyone like VE or me today (once grush and Macho are dead) because again, I'm pretty damn certain there won't be a mafia in Laya / VE and I'm also pretty damn certain Dr.H / BC aren't stupid. Maybe BH is an alternative as well, he's been really unreasonable throughout d1 but that's kind of his thing so he's really hard to judge for me and I'd say BC / Chez are way more likely to flip mafia than BH is. Still, don't listen to anyone spouting nonsense about how we have to lynch into people looking good because the lynch was to easy. If that's the case (I'm pretty certain it wasn't) you deal with those people later on. Deal with people who are easy to read and lynch people who are looking bad because they're looking bad. Don't make it overly complex and try to pull big plays by lynching some random dude that makes 0 sense to lynch unless *insert fancy conspiracy theory* is true. That's it from me for today. I ignored everything VE said. This is absolute hogwash. He's basing his choices on balance speculation, not actually analyzing anything. Let's take out BC because he's a vet! Where is the reasoning in this post? He hasn't been able to demonstrate what could possibly be scummy about BloodyCobbler or BlazingHand. Toadesstern is smart enough to know that you can't base a kill on speculation like this. "Don't make it overly complex and try to pull big plays by lynching some random dude that makes 0 sense to lynch unless *insert fancy conspiracy theory* is true." - Kinda like the assumption that we should kill random vets because one of them must be mafia? | ||
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On March 01 2013 09:42 The Milkman wrote: I cannot believe that a sane medic would leave mayor unprotected. Like, no way in hell. If I were medic, I wouldn't protect VisceraEyes. I would have protected BloodyC0bbler to see what he brings Day 1 or maybe WaveofShadow. | ||
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I think he's town and the way he is posting is constructive even if I don't agree with all of his ideas. I definitely would have used it on Vayesh though. Also, I'm noticing a pattern with all of the people whose Day 1 play I feel really bad about. 1. Accepting the Prom lynch without even trying to push any alternative/look elsewhere 2. Trying to push ObviousOne/JJ as scum targets pretty hard 3. Attacking me a lot without ever calling me scum | ||
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On March 01 2013 09:51 WaveofShadow wrote: Lol I don't even understand this one myself. I don't know vets/smurfs...which one is BC? VayeshMoru | ||
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On March 01 2013 09:55 WaveofShadow wrote: Which of my ideas don't you agree with? Insight plx, oh wise one. You had a large post earlier detailing a conspiracy theory which I thought was really misguided thinking - but made me more or less drop all my suspicions against you. Same reason I'm now inclined to think Geript is town, because unlike TestSubject, he has consistently approached the game from that level. While I don't think it's good town play, it's definitely town play imo | ||
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On March 01 2013 10:00 Vivax wrote: I'm being told that I've been roleblocked and that's it. Can we lynch MilkMan pls? Toadesstern, what did your roleblock say? | ||
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A few things stand out to me which is that after his push on Prom (which was 2-3 posts that didn't go longer than a paragraph or two), he immediately started patting himself on the back and spending the rest of the day arguing with other people about himself. It was his idea to kill the Pardoner (a plan he admitted was bad when he thought about it pregame) but still wanted to discuss it and even push it at the end of the game. What I don't get is why a scum Toades would vote for VE under any circumstance when he knew there was a chance VE would kill him. Other than that, I see no reason to believe Toadesstern is really town in this game. He's quick to anoint himself as the star and most useful player in the thread but was absolutely useless for Day 1. Plenty of people came to the same conclusion on Prom without his help (I wasn't even aware of his case when I made mine) and he is more than willing to toot his own horn for it. Killing off the pardoner as well would only give him 2x the town cred. There are a few other little things, like his disinterest in being mayor I find curious. He said essentially he'd only run for mayor if he could lynch a veteran, really strange thing to say. The fact that there are no bodyguards I now understand to be only relevant for scum because a well playing townie is a target regardless of whether they are elected or not. That kind of immediate survival instinct rubs me the wrong way. | ||
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On March 01 2013 10:26 MilkSuckler wrote: I dont think it was early day one.. no1 has rided the town cred hard enough (not even Dr. H) I think it was an adapted bus situation... seriously.. if the case was just Dr.H.. prome prob woulda responded but with Dr.H/me/Wade.. bus time occured. (in my opinion) Toades hasn't? wat? Are you kidding me? I did more than anyone in this game so far. The game started 01 am my time. That's really late and still everyone's on prom because of the 3 posts I DID about him and laya / VE and later on everyone else agreeing with what I said / repeating what I said about prom in everyone's one words. I'm just trying to understand what you're accusing me of... especially considering that I've got people in skype laughing about me because it's so obvious I'm town this game and I won't stand a chance next time I roll mafia if I keep on playing the way I am right now. Was kind of busy owning mafia and playing dota inbetween. how do you get that idea I'm disinterested in communicating my own reads? Communicating my own reads is the reason we're where we are yet because again, I was the guy who just said what was on his mind while people like laya / VE and later on other people only ended up saying "yeah saw that as well Toad, agree". (crediting himself solely while discrediting the people who are helping push and pressure prom, interesting) About how "dominant" I usually am... again I said I'd bet VE's left ball on prom being mafia 2 hours into the game. How much more dominant do you want me to be? I usually stop repeating myself after saying the same thing 3 times or something like that and I think everyone understands what my reads are about now. let's wait and see how Prom flips. Pretty sure he'll confirm me as town. RED ALERT RED ALERT RED ALERT well if he does flip red there's no way I'm mafia. If he's somehow going to flip green it's back to null/whatever you've got me on based on my thread presence (should be pretty obvious townie) I guess but I'm quite confident. whatever. I most likely nailed mafia 2 hours into the game you're welcome that being said Laya, VE (sadly), and I myself are all pretty much confirmed town, dr.H as well though not as much (from a objective point of view ignoring everything else because of timestamps, if you add everything else he probably looks better than the 3 of us). So protecting anyone in that list sounds good to me. After the bus the next brilliant bit of analysis (grush although he provides absolutely no reasoning for it) is that we should shoot a random vet just cause mafia probably has a vet on their team. Also the way he jumped all over MilkSuckler at the beginning of the thread is laughable. Look how he left the Prom lynch completely alone. He started it and everyone else did all the work pressuring Prom and Prom never responded to it. The really scummy thing that Prom did happened many many hours after Toades original accusation (I hesitate to call it a case simply by formatting). In it, Prom avoids attacking Toades or any of his accusers instead pointing a random finger at JJ before signing out. | ||
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also why would in his mind that confirm any of us? has he never heard of a bus before or is he trying to deliberately avoid that kind of thinking altogether | ||
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On February 26 2013 08:57 Toadesstern wrote: No bodyguards means I'm not going to run for mayor :3 I more or less agreed with this sentiment from the beginning of the game but it's actually quite curious. As town, if you're playing very well you're just as much of a target whether you're mayor or not. From a scum perspective, the extra attention from mayor is unhelpful and it might be hard to explain why you survive multiple nights as the mayor. The bodyguards mean no protection from night investigations or vigilante hits. This is a minor + for Toades leaning scum, but on its own it isn't enough to really classify him as scum. what better way to push his lynch and pardoner plan then to run for mayor anyway? nothings really adding up for me here | ||
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can we talk about what I just posted on Toadesstern or maybe anyone has an alternative case they want to push? I have a bit more to add but I'm gonna run to the store real quick | ||
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The fact that he didn't even consider the fact that it could have been a bus is odd. Toades is logical. If he was town, of course he would credit himself but why would this confirm me or layabout or visceraeyes? If Toadesstern really thinks mafia would never attack their own player or let them be lynched then he is sorely mistaken and I can't honestly believe he would ignore the possibility so starkly unless he was deliberately trying to avoid bringing it up. | ||
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Toades complete 180 in attitude and productivity, content to sit on his laurels of his first accusation implies some kind of future knowledge. No way any competent scumhunter would be that confident on a first read going into Day 1 especially considering the most convincing thing about Prom being scum didn't happen until several hours after Toades went after him. | ||
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On March 01 2013 11:40 geript wrote: Since you're here DrH... I brought up 2 posts Toad made twice regarding eliminating the pardoner role... Can you comment on them please. Not your posts but I did think that through (I'm leaving in a minute), he admitted that he considered the plan pregame and determined it was bad but felt it was important enough to discuss at length anyway. He ignores it for the rest of the game until the last few hours then pushes for it. It is a pro-town idea in theory but it would just be another reason for him to credit himself as the best townie of all time, I don't think it's consequential at all. But if I personally decided a plan of mine was shitty (and I've had several) I wouldn't even bring it up, it would be a less productive discussion that talking about who I think is scum and I can't believe that Toades would just stop at Prom. No one else did, but he calls them the sheep? Heh. | ||
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On March 01 2013 10:42 Aquanim wrote: DoctorH, you're pointing out a lot of odd things in Toad's play but you haven't actually said you think he's scum. Are you waiting for someone else to do it for you? Or do you have reservations about Toadscum? I had a longer case that was very clear about that which I accidentally deleted. Yes, I am fairly convinced that Toades is scum and that VE was hit by mafia to avoid him being pushed on Day 2. | ||
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Toad before lynch - Layabout/VE don't get any town cred for supporting the Prom lynch because they just sheeped me Toad after lynch - Layabout/VE/DrH are all confirmed town because they supported the Prom lynch | ||
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On March 01 2013 12:23 Promethelax wrote: late GG to all, sorry for my shoddy play with special apologies to my team. Best of luck! This warrants a warning imo. Your exit post could be taken to imply you weren't intentionally bussed. Under no circumstance should a dead player be allowed to say anything that might influence a game. | ||
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On March 01 2013 11:48 geript wrote: Lets assume for a second that this is the case, does that give anymore suspicion to people who followed me into trying to get Prome elected pardoner thus forcing VE's hand in the selection process. No, it is in essence a protown plan. The fact that he did it is unsuspicious, but the way he presented it is the problem for me. | ||
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If you are a town dayvig in this game you MUST shoot Chezinu right now. I am not inclined to believe Chezinu is the scum dayvig because the scumteam would see this logic coming. There is no sense in shooting Milkman, a player scum has no reason to be afraid of. If you instead prefer to claim tonight, we will lynch you and set town night KP on Chezinu. It is a 1:1 trade. If there is no claim or shot, we can assume Chezinu is in fact the town dayvig so leaping onto him now is beside the point. There is a chance to actually confirm his alignment or get a 50/50 chance with it so I would like to move forward with my points on Toadesstern. Hold your horses BH, this is an easy resolution. This is a semi-open setup but scum would never take the chance of using the dayvig power this early when there is a chance of a counterclaim. I refuse to believe scum would be that reckless after losing Day 1. | ||
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My question - is how on earth could anyone be so sure by hour 2 about Prom that they were ready to claim the "most useful townie award" that early in the game with absolute confidence that the flip would confirm them as town? The RNG discussion thing was bad but it was really just enough to pressure Prom on, it was everything he did after that that led me to believe he was for sure scum. I think the only reason Toades was that confident so early is NOT clairvoyance but it is prior knowledge of his alignment AKA THEY ARE TEAMMATES | ||
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I will wait for a counterclaim to make any further decision regarding Chezinu's alignment because we have a rare chance at actually getting an objective confirmation in this game. Any discussion prior to that will be unproductive I think. | ||
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On March 01 2013 12:37 grush57 wrote: ##Shoot: Chezinu ##Vote: Toadesstern These 2 are scum... You're a real dayvig? I hope so. Because the only other reason I could think of for a scum chezinu to shoot would be to distract from the Toadesstern case | ||
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On March 01 2013 12:43 Chezinu wrote: You and wade ordered the day vig to shoot me. The majority of town voted for you two. I had flashback of getting shot by motbob day one. I shot milkman because thats who I was currently hunting and he never responded to me. If you're the town dayvig, how could you possibly be shot? | ||
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On March 01 2013 12:45 WaveofShadow wrote: I hate my brain. + Show Spoiler + Oh god what if we have 2 dayvigs or if some retarded reason Chez is town and DrH just baited the mafia dayvig into shooting.....aaaaaaghWIFOMMMMMMM If Chezinu gets shot by a second dayvig and isn't scum then we have confirmed the other dayvig as scum. If Chezinu is the town dayvig, the mafia dayvig will never claim and can never use his KP and he'll be confirmed town in my eyes. Too big a risk to take as scum, since if he were the scum dayvig he would have the foresight to see that the town dayvig would just shoot him. Does that make sense? If he is the town dayvig he can do this to confirm his role and force the mafia dayvig into not using his shot because it would reveal scum. Are we never going to talk about toadesstern today | ||
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On March 01 2013 12:45 jcarlsoniv wrote: So wait... DrH, if Chez flips town, would you be looking at grush to be scum dayvig? It's something like this that would make it easy for grush to gain towncred cuz he can claim "I WAS JUST FOLLOWING ORDERS FROM DRH" Yes, I would immediately vote for grush and yell at anyone who didn't. | ||
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On March 01 2013 12:47 MilkSuckler wrote: excellent observatoin I am really surprised Dr.h was on the ball to try and clear Chezinu asap... was very well executed & clear visioned im also surprsied Dr.H didnt post that reasoning before the kill went up....as it was generic and could have been issued at any point. I came home from 7-11 and it had already happened. I am not trying to clear Chezinu. I am asking that we withhold further discussion and wait for a countershot or counterclaim because then we have a 50/50 shot of killing scum and will at the worst case scenario have a 1:1 trade which is beneficial to town. but look at it this way, pro's and con's for that play from both sides: Scum Dayvig Pros: 1. Confirms you are some form of dayvig 2. Derails productive discussion Cons: 1. You get flak for shooting a townie 2. You are likely to get counterclaimed and confirmed as scum 3. If you are countershot, you die and the distraction will be pointless Town Dayvig pros: 1. Confirm your role 2. Mafia Dayvig can't act because it would out him Cons: 1. You might kill a townie I think a scumdayvig also would be more likely to shoot his accuser than the target of his analysis. That being said, I think it makes more sense as a town play. If I were a Dayvig I would have shot Toadesstern an hour ago. | ||
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On March 01 2013 12:49 jcarlsoniv wrote: Why are you necessarily making the assumption that there is 1 town dayvig and 1 scum dayvig? Why couldn't there be 2 town dayvig? Quite possible. But because scum has no prior knowledge of the setup I don't think they would use this shot in response to early Day 2 pressure because fear of counterclaim. If there is no other claim, I'm inclined to let Chezinu live for now but for balance reasons I think scum having 1 dayvig and town having none is incredibly unlikely. It is probably either 2 in favor of town or 1:1. Either way it would be a more productive way of dealing with Chezinu right now. I'm not sure I can be accused of defending him when I'm asking for him to be shot. | ||
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On March 01 2013 12:47 Chezinu wrote: That's was my point. And why I shot before being shot at. Its like Here mafia day vig shoot chez without any repercussions! Well in that case you would have flipped town dayvig and we would have instalynched the other one. We can still afford 1 mislynch at this point since we won Day 1 and I would never pass on a 50/50 split like that. IMO if you held your shot it would have done a much better job at baiting a scumdayvig out, but I wouldn't blame anybody for not thinking that far ahead. And of course everyone wants to stay in the game as long as they can sort of regardless of whether or not it's the ideal play, we're all selfish beings. | ||
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Toadesstern: On March 01 2013 10:26 DoctorHelvetica wrote: Having a bitch of a time on Toadesstern's filter. A few things stand out to me which is that after his push on Prom (which was 2-3 posts that didn't go longer than a paragraph or two), he immediately started patting himself on the back and spending the rest of the day arguing with other people about himself. It was his idea to kill the Pardoner (a plan he admitted was bad when he thought about it pregame) but still wanted to discuss it and even push it at the end of the game. What I don't get is why a scum Toades would vote for VE under any circumstance when he knew there was a chance VE would kill him. Other than that, I see no reason to believe Toadesstern is really town in this game. He's quick to anoint himself as the star and most useful player in the thread but was absolutely useless for Day 1. Plenty of people came to the same conclusion on Prom without his help (I wasn't even aware of his case when I made mine) and he is more than willing to toot his own horn for it. Killing off the pardoner as well would only give him 2x the town cred. There are a few other little things, like his disinterest in being mayor I find curious. He said essentially he'd only run for mayor if he could lynch a veteran, really strange thing to say. The fact that there are no bodyguards I now understand to be only relevant for scum because a well playing townie is a target regardless of whether they are elected or not. That kind of immediate survival instinct rubs me the wrong way. On March 01 2013 10:33 DoctorHelvetica wrote: Toades hasn't? (crediting himself solely while discrediting the people who are helping push and pressure prom, interesting) RED ALERT RED ALERT RED ALERT After the bus the next brilliant bit of analysis (grush although he provides absolutely no reasoning for it) is that we should shoot a random vet just cause mafia probably has a vet on their team. Also the way he jumped all over MilkSuckler at the beginning of the thread is laughable. Look how he left the Prom lynch completely alone. He started it and everyone else did all the work pressuring Prom and Prom never responded to it. The really scummy thing that Prom did happened many many hours after Toades original accusation (I hesitate to call it a case simply by formatting). In it, Prom avoids attacking Toades or any of his accusers instead pointing a random finger at JJ before signing out. On March 01 2013 10:37 DoctorHelvetica wrote: notice also toades is not willing to give me ve or layabout an ounce of credit for the lynch, calling us sheep and patting himself on the back (read his filter) then after the flip he gives us some credit, that's a bit odd also why would in his mind that confirm any of us? has he never heard of a bus before or is he trying to deliberately avoid that kind of thinking altogether On March 01 2013 10:39 DoctorHelvetica wrote: I more or less agreed with this sentiment from the beginning of the game but it's actually quite curious. As town, if you're playing very well you're just as much of a target whether you're mayor or not. From a scum perspective, the extra attention from mayor is unhelpful and it might be hard to explain why you survive multiple nights as the mayor. The bodyguards mean no protection from night investigations or vigilante hits. This is a minor + for Toades leaning scum, but on its own it isn't enough to really classify him as scum. what better way to push his lynch and pardoner plan then to run for mayor anyway? nothings really adding up for me here On March 01 2013 11:38 DoctorHelvetica wrote: Look at Toades initial attack on MilkSuckler. It was of course complete bullshit and he later rescinded his vote but he immediately jumped on MilkSuckler for saying he wouldn't lynch a vet Day 1, an opinion that plenty of people have and is a very common stance that any TL Mafia player would pick up on. He jumps on him for "sheeping", an easy Day 1 vote for a highly aggressive player. For someone who played so aggressively in the first few hours of the game, it makes no sense for him to disappear from the rest of Day 1 and stop putting pressure on everybody despite the fact that he was present. He was clearly just waiting for the Prom flip to confirm him, he has more posts talking about how Prom would eventually confirm him scum rather than speculating on who else might be scum or trying to nail anybody else. Wasted his time. The fact that he didn't even consider the fact that it could have been a bus is odd. Toades is logical. If he was town, of course he would credit himself but why would this confirm me or layabout or visceraeyes? If Toadesstern really thinks mafia would never attack their own player or let them be lynched then he is sorely mistaken and I can't honestly believe he would ignore the possibility so starkly unless he was deliberately trying to avoid bringing it up. On March 01 2013 11:42 DoctorHelvetica wrote: Not your posts but I did think that through (I'm leaving in a minute), he admitted that he considered the plan pregame and determined it was bad but felt it was important enough to discuss at length anyway. He ignores it for the rest of the game until the last few hours then pushes for it. It is a pro-town idea in theory but it would just be another reason for him to credit himself as the best townie of all time, I don't think it's consequential at all. But if I personally decided a plan of mine was shitty (and I've had several) I wouldn't even bring it up, it would be a less productive discussion that talking about who I think is scum and I can't believe that Toades would just stop at Prom. No one else did, but he calls them the sheep? Heh. On March 01 2013 11:46 DoctorHelvetica wrote: This logical leap should make it clear Toad before lynch - Layabout/VE don't get any town cred for supporting the Prom lynch because they just sheeped me Toad after lynch - Layabout/VE/DrH are all confirmed town because they supported the Prom lynch | ||
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On March 01 2013 12:57 jcarlsoniv wrote: Ok...I think I'm following. I'm not disagreeing with ridding of Chez. What I'm disagreeing with is the thought process that if Chez flips green, that automatically makes grush red. It makes him look worse, sure. But it is just as likely that grush could be green and trying to jump on the opportunity to rid of Chez thinking he's scum. Hypothetical: Wouldn't a scum dayvig know that Chez is green, and shooting him would reveal that? This makes it seem, in my mind at least, that grush is town just knowing that he wouldn't out himself as a vig if he were scum. ...I think my train of thought it followable You're right, it could be a 2 town dayvig situation but I don't think we can pass on that kind of split. Also grush is someone that many vocal people are convinced is scum anyway, so it's not like it would be based on that alone. | ||
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On March 01 2013 13:15 MilkSuckler wrote: Im over this.. im starting to think grush was just trolling Geript. i will have a look through what you wrote later on.. im not sure why your pushing the point though.. Toad has enough evidence on him to justify a consolidated vote So i am not sure what you are trying to prove. The more pressure the better. If Toadesstern is town he should be able to clearly demonstrate his logic. The main issue is that he used the entirety of Day 1 to credit himself for the Prom lynch and cast doubt on everyone else who agreed with him. Why would any townie do this? I have played with Toadesstern and he isn't that arrogant. Even Ace isn't that arrogant. I pushed Prom immediately after going through his filter. I then used the rest of the day to pressure other players (to try and get an idea of the rest of the scumteam), improve town discussion, clarify my own thinking, i.e. goals and behaviors any town player should strive to achieve. Although I'm not perfect, I made an honest effort to remain productive. "Oh yeah I nailed scum in 2 hours bitch lol everyone on skype says I'm town" is the opposite of productive and it comes across as an effort to avoid talking about anything else. If you can catch scum that brilliantly in 2 hours surely you can contribute something else by the end of the day. Give me a break, there's no town intentions in that whole filter. | ||
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On March 01 2013 13:17 geript wrote: No, I'd have to look back on the timing of when he brought that up for it to matter. It could possibly be true but not enough on that. I'm saying that when I made the second big push to put prom in the pardoner role, because VE was leading and looking to win it, following my prom pardoner push is scummy because it was an attempt to force VE to be restrained. It's similar to a safety play in bridge. I will admit that this doesn't look great for me (as I made the follow up push), but its something to think about. By methodology maybe but if I were town and VE said he might lynch me I'd do whatever I could to make sure that doesn't happen. But I would do that by trying to approach him with logic and convince him I'm not town or convince everyone to elect somebody else mayor. | ||
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On March 01 2013 13:29 grush57 wrote: just make sure you don't change your stance when he makes up an afk excuse he wasn't afk though he was posting plenty | ||
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On March 01 2013 13:44 randombum wrote: I agree with the Dr.H's argument on toad. Additionally, he hasn't fixed reason why I didn't like him before he's still not doing much. Originally I thought he was just playing it cool to not die N1, and would unveil more about grush/scum on day 2, but so far nothing that I can see that benefits town. Why would you hit ve who proved himself malleable and willing to lynch the guy that got your teammate killed instead of the guy who caught scum in 2 hours and never once considered any other options | ||
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On March 01 2013 14:27 geript wrote: If Chez is scum, why shoot the milkman then? My thoughts exactly. Milkman was supposedly his number one target but I would have shot BH without hesitation there if I was the scum dayvig and under the serious impression that I was doomed that day if I did nothing. | ||
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On March 01 2013 14:42 MilkSuckler wrote: If that claim is fake.. i really think grush should have punishment.. this is bullshit.. its effectively killed off town discussion for god knows how long.. a warning at minimum if my voice means anything. I always figured by ##shoot he meant that he was encouraging the other dayvig to go shoot chez, like it was a call for him to be shot. Maybe I'm wrong? Regardless - there's no reason to lynch Chezinu without a counterclaim or countershot, I'll take the lashing after this game if it turned out the only dayvig in the game was a scum dayvig but that seems really stupid to me. To give mafia a role that can confirm its own power without the town counterpart. Otherwise the inherent risk of the role (part of the balance) is gone. | ||
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On March 01 2013 14:44 TestSubject893 wrote: I promised to post some thoughts and this is the explanation of why I'm not doing that. Its not helpful, I agree. Well, tell us your thoughts on Aqua. What exactly about OO made you think he wasn't scum? You need to show your work. | ||
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On March 01 2013 14:46 The Macho Man wrote: the to bad to be scum argument? The post effectively achieves nothing and it does not look like scum hunting. Not at all, it just hits me in a different way. I'm more concerned about his post on Day 1 then that one, but if he has done enough work to have written full cases and then deleted them, he needs to prove it now. | ||
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Toadesstern, you need to explain right this very second exactly (or as close to exactly as you can within the rules) how your roleblock was phrased. | ||
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how can you also early discredit ve/layabout for sheeping you then after the lynch spout that they are confirmed town only because promethelax was mafia how does being right about something confirm your alignment | ||
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There are only two possible roleblocks in the game. One of which has flavor: Malfuncioning Protectron: You are a bit Broken!! Each night you may "Protect" someone by throwing them in the town's jail. They will be unable to perform actions, but will be unable to be actioned upon. Your target will not be notified if they were protected from a shot in this way because of the concussion. The mafia roleblock has no flavor. On March 02 2013 00:59 Toadesstern wrote: just a regular roleblock, no flavor to it. On March 01 2013 10:00 Vivax wrote: I'm being told that I've been roleblocked and that's it. Can we lynch MilkMan pls? So, I'm inclined to think Toadesstern is the liar here and we move forward on a lynch. If Toadesstern flips town (shame on him in that case), then we kill Vivax tonight. Does that work for everyone? | ||
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On March 02 2013 00:58 Toadesstern wrote: I asked to be replaced out because people kept calling me mafia for reasons that are usally towntraits for me, as already shown multiple times while wrongly labeling it mafia-trait and when showing it just answering "well, you know about your meta, you might play like your town meta to screw with us". Again, there's nothing I can say against bullshit like that, NOTHING and it got me mad to a point that I asked to be replaced out. Yes I was rubbing it in to show some people how bad they are. Again, I'm still waiting for a single thing that just shows that I'm supposed to be mafia, you keep saying there's dozen of such things but I haven't seen a single one so far. 1. Your case against Prom never evolves and is mostly built around his RNG plan not promoting good discussion, much like the Pardoner plan you submitted despite admitting it wasn't a good idea 2. You put no effort into scumhunting for the rest of the day, only attacking people who agreed with you and claiming towncred for yourself. Since it was so early and Prom had yet to flip that's a bit odd 3. Still curious how you moved from VE/Layabout/Me being sheep on you (despite the fact that I built my case on Prom without ever having read your posts) to being confirmed town 4. There is no way you actually believe that every single person who accuses mafia rightly on Day 1 is confirmed town, you are not that stupid 5. After calling out Prom in 2 posts, you made no attempt to put pressure anywhere else, no real attempt to put further pressure on him, only arguing about how awesome and town you are 6. Either you or Vivax is a confirmed liar right now 7. Didn't want mayor cuz no bodyguards even though you're apparently the best town player in this game and already a huge target, why not take that role to guarantee VE isn't elected and lynches you. Also said you'd only want mayor to lynch a vet 8. Horrible bullshit case on Milksuckler showing early aggression and bad logic, attack him for sheeping when the opinion is a very common and popular one amongst TL Mafia players, one that likely every player has an opinion on and isn't really indicative of alignment either way. I also disagree with the idea that we should never D1 lynch vets but I don't think it's scummy to agree with that and nobody else should either 9. The particular phrasing of "Prom will confirm me" is troubling, suggests prior knowledge of his alignment 10. Still no real case against grush, your accusations on machoman are based on a metaread that you're not providing evidence for so for players like me who don't know who iamp is this is not doing a good job of moving the town 11. The scummiest thing Prom did was in his farewell post (attacking JJ with logic near impossible for town to use) which you glossed over, that was the point when I and everyone else became supremely confident he was scum because everything before that was about as good as it gets for a Day 1 early case, which is not very good at all. I don't believe you can be that good and that confident THAT early simply because there wasn't enough evidence at the time to warrant it only 1 of these points depends on you being "too good" so i hope that helps | ||
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There aren't two vanilla roleblock powers in this game so how can there be two vanilla roleblocks? | ||
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On March 02 2013 01:16 Vivax wrote: What is this flavour story Helvetica. You're making things up. That stuff about the jailer seems to be just that, flavour. Did you even ask the host? I for sure am not lying and got a standard roleblock notification, so don't try to pull these stunts on me. @ Oo You said in your post that Milkman was "confirmed town". 1. Why are you saying this? My points against him were strong and he was scummy, where is evidence that he was confirmed town? Did you know something I do not? 2. Why are you saying that to call me scummy but not to dissuade me from lynching him? And why aren't you pushing for a Chezinu lynch since he shot him? There is only one true roleblocker in the game. the malfunctioning protectitron is a medic/roleblocker. the clause at the end of the post says that if the malfunctioning protectitron protects you that night you will be notified (with the flavor of the concussion). i.e. it's impossible for two regular roleblocks to occur on any night and one of you is the liar milkman is dead and flipped town by the way | ||
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Forget about the concussion stuff and tell me how there can be two regular roleblocks at night with only 1 regular roleblocker in the possible setup? "you will be notified if you are protected in this way because of the concussion" the only way I could think for there to be 2 roleblocks, essentially, was if someone was also concussed and notified of that. But that's not the case so someone is a liar. I don't know why you're immediately on the defensive when I'm hard pushing Toadesstern to be lynched. One of you must be lying about being roleblocked last night. | ||
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Well that makes it even worse since there is only 1 possible notified roleblock in this game so one of you is still a liar | ||
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The only logical thing for either of them to do at this point is try to convince town to lynch the other, there is no possible way we are lynching anybody else today. It's too much. | ||
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1. grush isn't a dayvig it was a misunderstanding 2. chezinu explained like 3-4 times why he shot milkman | ||
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we should still be lynching toadesstern anyway | ||
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On March 02 2013 01:58 Toadesstern wrote: And for the love of god don't lynch Vivax because of "one of Vivax/Toad is a liar" because that statement is wrong, as already pointed out, although it's getting ignored. You're right, I rescinded that. | ||
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On March 02 2013 02:15 The Macho Man wrote: dr.h do you think scum could write this post? Yes, he's also a cheater and I've requested for him to be modkilled regardless of alignment | ||
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On February 26 2013 09:06 Toadesstern wrote: ##vote Wade Fell lynching MilkSuckler seems like the way to go. On February 26 2013 09:03 Toadesstern wrote: milksuckler is apparently either an idiot or he's trying to look like one. I know someone who said the exact same thing (pretty much word for word) last time I played with a mayoral campaign. Are you trying to imitate someone milksuckler or did you just copy & paste? Also, I agreed with your initial logic on Prom. It wasn't a scumslip. You're already giving up so go ahead and die then, you're useless now. Here is your call out of Prom: On February 26 2013 10:25 Toadesstern wrote: why did you tell us about being just being a plattform to create talk with if you wanted it to get some real traction? That kind of counters your idea. I'd say you wanted to look like someone who wants to create discussion but wants to make sure he looks good. When it became too hot (and it didn't, the timing to go back on that was way to early if you wanted to achieve something, so you're overly defensive for whatever reason) for your idea you went ahead yelling GUYS GUYS, I BE TROLL LOL DON'T TAKE ME SERIOUS Do we have a dayvig? What in that is a scumslip? You attacked his logic like anyone else but it wasn't anything a terrible terrible townie hasn't done before. | ||
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I still fail to see how Prom's RNG discussion is a guaranteed scumslip considering you also proposed discussion on a plan you didn't think was very good | ||
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but apparently you want to be lynched now, do you think yourself incapable of defending or explaining yourself? | ||
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I'm unsure about vivax but on lunch ill be reading geript and testsubject who tried to confuse the prom lynch | ||
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Toades, I wont apologize for requesting your modkill but that day 1 attitude is unacceptable. I hope you learn from that instead of arrogantly chastising me postgame. So - who tried to stop the prom lynch without hard defending him again? Lets look at those folks I.e. who said "prom is prolly scum but lets not trust ppl who are accusing him or imma vote elsewhere" | ||
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Also why would I ask a question to clear up a misunderstanding in the scum qt outside of the scum qt | ||
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I jisread and glossed over the "not" in the jailer description, a flaw that would be corrected in mafia qt Also IT WAS SOMEONE ELSE WHO SUGGESTED 2 NIGHTVIG NOT ME. I was just asking how they would know but I need to get home before I find the quote and How would mafia even know how many nightvigs there were lol | ||
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On March 02 2013 11:53 geript wrote: D&Ding. Quite frankly, I don't think there'd just be a Scum day vig. I think Dr. H scum slipped. If that's true, then Chez is town. I agree bozo but SOMEONE ELSE NOT ME SOMEONE ELSE IDR WHO said there are 2 night vig and I was just trying to call attention to that but its hard to go back and quote on my phone Heading home now anyway so hopefully ill find it but good job ignoring the last 2 times I said this And if I did say it it would be a vigilante slip not a scum slip holy shit | ||
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Nothing to talk about because we're gonna lynch geript day 3 | ||
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I only dropped my suspicions originally coz he kept playing conspiracy theorist | ||
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No more phone posting | ||
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I don't get where you are assuming that Chezinu is town, I agree that it's unlikely that town has 2 dayvigs and 1 vig, so one of the dayvigs has to be scum, in case that grush really is a dayvig, and it's our top priority to find that out. Confused 2 Dayvig with 2 nightvig while I was driving to work after reading this post. So there was no second claim. I still find it unlikely scum has a dayvig and town doesn't. I've hosted a fair few games and when you give scum confirmable role, there needs to be a risk like having a town counterpart that can claim. That's why when you have a town mason, you gotta pair with a scum mason or at least leave it open as a possibility. A town dayvig shouldn't have fear of using his power because a counterclaim would only work in his own favor, he doesn't need to fear the setup wheras a scum dayvig without knowledge of whether there is a town dayvig or not has no fear. That is all out the window since Chezinu thought he was going to be shot by the other dayvig so ultimately I now think his play is not alignment indicative itself but no countershot does leave me wondering. His utter lack of contribution is extremely worrisome. On March 02 2013 06:35 geript wrote: This looks like a scum slip to me. Like someone in scum QT wrote there are 2 vigs (referring to Chez/Vivax) and he came over here with the assumption of 2 night vigs. I had the feeling before that WoS was scripting things. After thinking about Chez more, I buy him as town day big. I think he's right on with his list. That is the most asinine logic I've ever heard. "It's kinda like this happened so yeah he's probably scum". It could also be like the other 1000000000 times I've misread someones post and asked about it. Going back through Day 1 (since Toades flipped town after all) I'm now looking at players who immediately resisted Prom in an odd way or tried to deflect discussion/sow mistrust in the town as the lynch gained steam. Let's look at Geript on Day 1. On February 26 2013 09:20 geript wrote: It looks to me that the best person for mayor is someone who is willing to: A. put in the time to read the thread B. both make and evaluate other's cases C. is unlikely to be an early target for NK In this regard I would nominate myself as I am more likely to devote more time to reading (both filters and filter in the context of the thread as a whole) than anyone else. Additionally, I am relatively unknown which removes untoward bias for or against me due to previous games as well as making me a more impartial arbiter as it regards established players. My lynch platform is: Scum read > hard/impossible to read > null read > town read ## vote geript His mayoral campaign. He hasn't shown a huge amount of effort in reading filters in any case. My argument with Geript over whether or not I was just stealing pardoner is there. He's finally calling me scum now. But my original point still stands. Geripts logic over Day 1 and early Day 2 is this: 1. DoctorH is intentionally trying to get a scum role 2. DoctorH is intentionally lying about his campaign on purpose How could he possibly not conclude I am scum earlier than now? There is absolutely no town reason to do either of those 2 things, yet he was unwilling to call me out on either point. He does not talk about Prom at all and makes no effort to push his original scumread through out the progression of Day 1. As though making his case was enough contribution to blend in. On February 27 2013 09:33 geript wrote: The difference I'm seeing between RO and Prome is that Prome has an underlying agenda; I don't see Prome as being disinterested. Doesn't see the martrying as scummy (most unbelievably scummy thing a player can do) and misses the incredible scumslip logic in Prom's farewell. Never mentions it until asked. On February 27 2013 09:35 geript wrote: Can you really say that this is an actually attempt to try and move the mayor role from VE? It is an attempt to assure Promethelax is lynched. On February 27 2013 12:51 geript wrote: So Aqua, what do you think of Dr.H? On February 27 2013 14:59 geript wrote: I'm arguing what his motivation is from what his actions are; call that what you will. No my stance has since his previous posts has become more firm in that I trust him even less. His stance in actuality is that he is fine with becoming either wanting to allow people to slide him in. Why would a town player be actively opposed to being pardoner anyway? I'm never going to use the power so it ends up meaning nothing to me as an individual. On February 28 2013 03:10 geript wrote: Because there are conflicting reads imo; I actually like many of your posts as I can follow them and see where your head is at an a general direction. I'm just not sold that I'm not being played. In the case of conflicting reads I want more information so I can make a better informed decision and I want to try and remove any confirmation bias. This is why I'd strongly prefer to soft force the Mayor to lynch the pardoner. They want Prom out, fine; force them to follow up on that. Having him sit around to be town-lynched makes little sense unless they actually think he's town. If people want to pull "shennannies" then I have no interest in them being mayor as they are more likely lying to us. Since most everyone seems at least ok with Prome being lynched, I suggest moving secondary votes on him to force them to lynch him or risk giving him pardoner long-term. It doesn't matter. He can't explain what is town about what I'm doing, just that he is able to follow my logic. But he clearly doesn't accept or believe that I'm not just trying to steal pardoner. Later he calls me a liar. Town players here's a multiple choice question: 1. Player X is making a clear attempt to steal the pardoner role. He is lying about the intentions of his mayoral campaign and trying to stop a popular town candidate from getting mayor. What conclusion can you come to: A. This player is scum B. This player is third party C. This player is town D. Null Anyone who doesn't pick A or B is lying to themselves. Geript not once since his case on WoS mentioned who he would want lynched. Prom was already full steam ahead. He says this: They want Prom out, fine Never again pushes WoS. He is not at all concerned about who is lynched Day 1, but very concerned with making sure people are suspicious of me. Irrelevant, scum have GF (i assume), roleblocker, medic, etc. On February 28 2013 16:26 geript wrote: So VE, why were you so interested in becoming pardoner? Also, if you didn't care about who stole the town cred then why did you so voraciously attack almost everyone else (Wade Fells seemingly excluded) for bringing up cases or points they made on the subject? Why not just admit that you're scum and make it easy? Sorry Mocsta but I don't care about Dr.H much right now. I also don't understand why'd you have me change the subject off of VE when he's a lying so much. Again with the pardoner conspiracies, not attempting to push scumreads. I thought this guy was gonna filter dive all game? On February 28 2013 16:40 geript wrote: You went on the offensive to prevent anyone else from getting credit. You've lied multiple times about whether or not you wanted to lynch Prome. You've lied multiple times about whether you're running for mayor. You've intentionally tried to grab at pardoner which is a pro-scum role. You've lied about not trying to take credit for the mayor lynch. There's nothing that can be trusted about you. You're scum. VE dies that night as town. On February 28 2013 17:48 geript wrote: Everyone just stop whatever they're doing and read VE's filter now. His last post makes absolutely no sense. It's also incompatible with VE's personality. He's Type A; he's a honey badger. He don't give a fuck. Why, if he's so confident in his reads, would he not pull shennannies? Why does he try to step down? VE, you best be glad I don't have a gun, because you'd be dead. Irrelevant, as mafia I would not ever avoid attacking a town player I accused of being scum. Dr.H I have you on null plus now after rereading your posts. A liar, ok, but that in and of itself isn't damning and not enough to get you lynched. While I'm not fond of lying in this game in general, I can at least admit to it's usefulness at points. You're keep your own council as is evident by your posts. A liar who tried to steal pardoner isn't enough for a lynch? Huh? How could that lie possibly be useful? So far in this game GERIPT HAS DONE NOTHING except for discredit and argue with TOWN players. VayeshMoru, VisceraEyes and Me. This is all he has done. He goes for VE (who was dying that night), smart. Why go for DrH and give him 48 hours to fight back? I think Geript is scum. Someone give me a comprehensive case on Chezinu, I can see how his play is useless but I'm still second guessing myself from setup shit and it's really hard for me to take a clear look at his posting and I'm also unfamiliar with his metagame. | ||
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forget the fact that i supposedly intentionally lied about my campaign intentions and tried to steal pardoner for nefarious reasons - excusable asking if a second person claimed nightvig based on a post I misread? obvious scum - it's "like he read it in scum qt" powerful shit | ||
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On March 02 2013 11:53 geript wrote: D&Ding. Quite frankly, I don't think there'd just be a Scum day vig. I think Dr. H scum slipped. If that's true, then Chez is town. On March 01 2013 11:51 geript wrote: Not going to lie, I like this Chez dude already. You're a winner in my book. <3 On March 01 2013 11:56 geript wrote: Chez I would've hearted you more if you had shot the suckling. On March 01 2013 12:33 geript wrote: Chez, can I have your babies? On March 01 2013 14:27 geript wrote: If Chez is scum, why shoot the milkman then? On March 02 2013 06:35 geript wrote: This looks like a scum slip to me. Like someone in scum QT wrote there are 2 vigs (referring to Chez/Vivax) and he came over here with the assumption of 2 night vigs. I had the feeling before that WoS was scripting things. After thinking about Chez more, I buy him as town day big. I think he's right on with his list. VE is talking about you acting scripted, not WoS So Geript only voted for Chez because Chez didn't defend himself against accusation then went back to thinking Chez is town because somehow I can't be teammates with Chez even though it was originally my idea that Chez is more likely town dayvig than night dayvig | ||
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no resistance to the lynch either hm | ||
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On March 02 2013 13:43 Wade Fell wrote: no resistance to the lynch cause i battered it into people over the course of the past 28 hours! There was tons of resistance before then. In fact, until my hissyfit about 16 hours ago nobody even responded to the case also geript is clearly chez' scumbuddy Yeah, that's fair enough. There was no strong resistance to Prom either and why resist strongly when basically the entire thread has voted Chez in. | ||
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why would town attack their own defender, to intentionally cause confusion? Chezinu is hard to understand but what I'm getting is he thinks I am scum if I don't pardon him? | ||
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the most significant things geript has done this game: 1. talk mess about VE, confirmed townie and potentially dangerous vet 2. talk mess about BC, confirmed townie and potentially dangerous vet 3. talk mess about me, potentially dangerous vet his case against me depends on the idea that i heard about 2 night vigs in the scum qt and i just pointed out which post by vivax it was i was talking about and before that "slip" he had a null read on me so if he's still gonna call me scum, he's being illogical MEANING his logic was formed for the purpose of the accusation not the accusation being formed on the basis of the logic MEANING he is scum or incredibly bad and stubborn | ||
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like everyone is such a primadonna they can't handle being criticized without just flying off the handle and giving up | ||
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On March 02 2013 15:22 geript wrote: Trying to hedge your best Doc? Afraid I'll flip town? what are you talking about i'm straight calling you scum rofl | ||
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I remember RebirthofLegend used to do this kind of thing all the time whether he was town or scum which was a shame because he was a great scum hunter youngminii used to flip his lid so bad if he ever got even FoS'd that the instant I FoS'd him in any game he would start pushing me and yelling at me in the thread and even shot me instantly as a dayvig the second I said he was suspicious lol some people just can't be reasoned with | ||
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The atmosphere in this game is abysmal | ||
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Why? Your entire case is based solely on a point that I proved wrong. Any townie would rescind the case, as I've done many times when the lynchpin of my case ended up being a misunderstanding like with JJ and other people | ||
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On March 02 2013 16:04 geript wrote: Hey Doc, how many town reads have you given out? I don't know, unlike other players I don't feel compelled to make lists | ||
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On March 02 2013 16:46 geript wrote: I already said that I previously liked a number of your previous posts. I was back and forth on you. Not anymore. When people don't like my initial post, I went back re-read. Though more and started working on making it better while tabling it to look at other players. I don't mind waiting as I'm generally quite patient. Am I not allowed to be wrong? I didn't agree with it in my read. Isn't this the point that I brought up? Funny, I bring it up AND point out that it made me look scummy. Reasonable to as scum give you the bullets to shoot at me? When there's a safety play at IMPs in bridge, only an idiot doesn't make it. MPs is different, but at IMPs you make the damn safety play as the risk of gaining 1 IMP at the cost of 11 IMPs just isn't worth it. That's my take on it at least. Perfect town victory doesn't matter and doesn't happen. With a clear safety play available, I made the attempt at it. You've admitted to being back and forth to some extent on things in your head... Am I not allowed to be mixed in opinion? So now I'm guilty for pushing people I'm suspicious of or pushing my suspicions so that other people see them? What's wrong with that? So me attacking VE for my opinions of him isn't trying to create an argument? WIFOM either way. While I agree that (verbally) attacking or making a case against someone who you intend to kill isn't bad scum play, it doesn't make it great scum play either. You're right. It couldn't. You're scum. Also, if you're allowed to misread the thread, then I can do it too. Especially when I got to read the thread around 9, 2, 6, 8 and now. 1. You're guilty for pushing suspicions on me instead of WoS who you originally thought was scum. A townie has no reason to spend effort spreading doubt on a null read while neglecting to push his own scum target. 2. You end this post admitting you think I'm scum on the basis that I lied with the sole intention of stealing pardoner. I'm glad you see now that no townie would ever do this. However, you not coming to this conclusion earlier and only finally FoSing me on a scumslip that didn't actually exist is highly suspect. Now you seem more confident then ever that I'm scum even though I've disproven the single point that made you accuse me in the first place! This suggests to me that you were just waiting for the right thing to use to attack me, like it was a forgone conclusion. | ||
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I'd point out that no one has really made a case against you at all. As far as I see it, your agenda has been to make the town atmosphere negative. Yes, it takes two to get into a flame war and I'm not giving war baby any credit avoiding those spats either. In the least Mocsta has shown that he's willing to listen, even though I think his vote for me is weak at best. You on the other hand have tunnel visioned on your target of the moment at each point. Scum hunting is fine and being aggressive is fine. But the belligerent tone you've taken at many points, especially over exceptionally minor things, isn't beneficial to the town. lolhttp://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=395714&user=298120¤tpage=3 Every post is long, the reasoning is clear, no snide behavior, no attitude, focused on making his logic clear and pressuring his scum case when he presents is. Once his case rolls out, he spents the rest of his filter arguing it. The behavior in this filter and in this game now are so different I can't believe they are the same alignment. He actually plays pretty well in this newbie game as far as his approach and everything is concerned. On February 12 2013 10:16 geript wrote: Could you please explain this more to me? I feel like I'm missing something. Town Geript responding to pressure Geript in this game responding to pressure: "lol go ahead doc, im waiting, guess i might as well vote myself in the meantime" On February 12 2013 04:57 geript wrote: First thing to realize is that was a post I had typed up as of Cora's following post on p21. I wanted to reread and edit it after getting up to make sure I was making sense and posting effectively. + Show Spoiler + On February 11 2013 14:46 cDgCorazon wrote: ##Vote: Warbaby Congratulations WB, it's been 5 hours and I already think you are scum. I'm going to break this down into a few points: 1. Your "I'm not Mafia rofl" claim. The biggest problem is that you have claimed town within the first 4 hours. You not only claimed town, but you're basically waving a giant sign that says "HEY LOOK EVERYONE, I'M TOWN". The nature of your claim is ridiculous, almost too much. Examples: You're coming on way too strong with this claim for me to believe it. 2. Continuing to play the victim from the mislynch in NMM 36. Examples: It's another part in trying to associate yourself too hard with being townie. You need to get it through your head that this isn't XXXVI anymore. We're all sorry for the mislynch last game, but you need to come in here and forget about it. It's a whole different game with different players. Stop trying to stay in the past. 3. Your lack of scumhunting. Goes without saying, you've done none of it yet. All the jabs you made at Mocsta have been points that myself and other people have discussed to death already. Bring something new to the table. 4. Trying to change the subject when the pressure is on you. This is the scummiest part. If you are town, you should be trying to prove that your claim is true, and not kill discussion right when it starts to pick up. For these reasons, you are getting my vote for the time being. If you are really town, you should have no trouble proving your innocence. 1. I don't have great reasons that I can point to for warbaby being town. My read is/was that he's just a VT/veterant that was trying to pull an attack his way. As his other posts have made him a more reasonable sounding lynch/mislynch target for which a case could be made against, I think he negated the attack pull. If you want a more concrete case/reasons, then I'm sorry I can't oblige there. 2. I disagree fully. Take for example the following: + Show Spoiler + On February 12 2013 00:52 Mocsta wrote: Guys im going to bed. zarepath, I am not sure if the start of your post was addressed to me? If so, I had mandalor as null read; he said a few things but until he follows through its all NON-alignment indicative. btw, quite a few decent points in that case; I think some are educated assumptions, and others are really contradictory to ideal town play. Will wait and see what wave has to say for himself before proceeding further. Is there any actual content in this post? This post specifically states that he his posting simply for the sake of posting. "A few decent points..." Ok, fine which ones and why; expand the case. "Some educated assumptions..." = "adlkjfa;ldhfaldha;fl. "Others are really contradictory ideal town play..." then point it out. "Will wait and see..." sounds more like bandwagoning or sheeping. Considering his other activity (jumping on warbaby early after my opening attempt and again after following Cora's post) to willfully follow instead of lead, he looks far more like scum than actually and actively dig/hunt for his own ideas or espouse his own concepts. But when it looks like he's been trying to run for mayor, to switch gears into following others lead instead of espousing his own looks suspicious to me. 3. I think there's enough content in this post and the previous to realize that I'm not just making ad homenim attacks. ##vote mocsta @sn0_man What do you think are Mocsta's town contributions? What are the 'scummy things' Mocsta has done that you think I'm avoiding? Look at how he explains his thoughts clearly in several paragraphs before voting instead of off of a throwaway sentence like "oh...that could be a scumslip" and he has a genuine interest in coming to an understanding/agreement with other players in the game lol it's just so different i mean i'd really rather lynch geript | ||
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(if geript is a hatter trying to get himself lynched to herobomb scum then i applaud him) but vigis and hatters need to start wasting the trash in this game macho man, testsubject893, glurio, randombum, obviousone, hassybaby, restraining order, grush57 I'd bet 100 ESPORTS dollars there are about 2-3 scum in there and another 1 in here: layabout, aquanim, chezinu Who was it that said JJ was scum for claiming Jailer? That person is likely scum and should get shot. That is absolute retardation JJ is confirmed town the only scenario in which JJ could be lying is one in which JJ and Vivax are both scum if I'm actually thinking clearly right now | ||
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or testsubject/geript just blow this game up and let's see what we have on day 3 | ||
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On March 03 2013 02:01 TestSubject893 wrote: I think it was WF. Is that enough for you to want to kill him? Hm, I had a pretty town read for him on most of this game. It makes me want to read his filter really closely when I come back from work today. | ||
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On March 03 2013 01:59 TestSubject893 wrote: I could get on board with that. I guess the questions are 'are Chez and Geript both so scummy that at this point there is no way either avoids being lynched?', and 'can we assure enough votes get to geript that we don't accidentally no-lynch from neither having 11?'. I'd answer the former with yes, and the latter with I don't know. I'm reading this as if WoS knows for sure that geript's alignment is town. Am I misreading it? WoS doesn't seem scummy to me, but this looks like a scumslip. I actually wondered about that bit too, I'll give him the benefit of the doubt and let him clarify before I call it a scumslip. And you because you were there with geript pushing doubt and nothing else on Day 1 Prom Lynch and you're playing very scared and hesitant. Problem with mafia game is differentiating new and scared town from mafia can be pretty hard so I'd hope you start putting some pep in your step and show some initiative here. | ||
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On March 03 2013 02:03 MilkSuckler wrote: The flavour says, hatter/engineer can only lay 1 bomb per night.. so if you do that, u kill 1 guy for 1 return. also.. I believe it was Wade Fell. i still dont get why it makes him confirmed town (as per here) There are two roleblocks last night: Toadesstern was roleblocked (flipped town, he has no reason to lie so more or less proven) Vivax was roleblocked (unproven) There are two roleblockers in the game: Town Jailer Mafia Roleblocker If JJ is scum then he is fake claiming Town Roleblocker when in reality he is either the scum roleblocker who RB'd Vivax/Toades or one of his teammates is. The problem is, because there were two claimed roleblocks scum would know for certain that jailer is a present role in the game and would never claim it because it would be counterclaimed. The only way scum would claim this role is if Vivax is scum and is lying about his roleblock but in that case STILL they would not know if the Jailer really exists or not. So either JJ and Vivax are both scum scheming together or JJ is probably the actual jailer | ||
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if jj is scum roleblocker who rb'd toades then the town rb who jailed vivax would still counterclaim so i dont think jj is lying | ||
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If anyone wants proof Geript is scum/3rd party go look at his town filter from the last newbie mafia. It couldn't be more different, I usually hate meta reads but this one is nothing but net | ||
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On March 03 2013 02:32 TestSubject893 wrote: Ok, I'll read the guide. The fear I have with pushing null reads is that if they turn out to be town it makes me look scummy, and wastes the town's time by making them go after me next. For example, early in this game, when my read on you was null and I pointed that out. You've had me pegged as scummy ever since. Being wrong isn't scummy, pressuring someone you later decide is town isn't scummy it's all about how you do it and what your intentions are if you pressured someone, they explained themselves well and knocked down your points against them and you still kept calling them scum, that would be scummy. it's ok to change your mind. | ||
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On March 03 2013 03:15 geript wrote: For those of you who are taking my previous town meta into play, I want you to ask yourself one question: "How many of those posts do you think I got coaching on?" So you would completely abandon everything you learned? | ||
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You still have nothing to say to the fact that your case was tied together by a scumslip that doesn't exist. If that was the reason you thought I was scum, why do you still think so after I cut that down? Mocsta is Milk Suckler? I don't have a scumread on him so I'm not going to go dive through his metagame just because you asked me to. Why would I give a damn about someone elses town reads or why would anybody? If your focus is discrediting us instead of pushing for the lynch of people who you think are scum - you are not playing like a townie. Period. You admit that's your goal. Not to lynch scum. But to discredit us. In your last game you say after your death that all that matters is lynching scum. You're scum. | ||
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On March 03 2013 03:39 WaveofShadow wrote: This. And for the record geript still hasn't responded to my earlier case on him where he says he 'still believed VE was talking about him.' That kind of stubbornness in the face of overwhelming proof is just ridiculous. Looking at last game, townie geript would be curious about understanding your reasoning and probably fall back when coming into new information. Any townie would. Geript isn't doing that. When he actually pointed out the one thing about me that would be a reasonable argument (it's untrue, but if he really thinks I'm a liar stealing pardoner he should have been pushing me yesterday) he then comes out and says I've been saying a lot of stuff that makes him think I'm town but can't say what it is. Now he's completely unwilling to listen to anything I have to say. This all happened after a PROVEN NONEXISTENT SCUMSLIP that he refuses to acknowledge right now. There is no way Geript is town. | ||
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On March 03 2013 03:42 WaveofShadow wrote: And DrH I brought up the meta points regarding geript before and he defended himself using RL without explaining himself further. Why does no one pay attention to my cases. Because I don't have time to read someones filter from a previous game while I'm at work | ||
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On March 03 2013 03:50 geript wrote: Because some people are more focused on jerking each other off and picking on newbies than anything else. I can't wait until I get to be a vig, I'm only going to shoot out of spite. That's hardly happening in this game. Accusing you is not "picking on you". You can be spiteful or if you are town you could take it as a signal and try to keep improving your play. If you're going to keep playing mafia games just to spite people because you're bitter then I'll head right over to the banlist thread and argue until I'm blue that you're never allowed to play a game here again. How childish is that? This is actually pretty low on vet arrogance, you should see Ace play | ||
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On March 03 2013 04:15 geript wrote: Funny, no vet circle jerk? You seem quite fine dismissing any point made by a non-vet. Other than the "obvious" Prom case, you haven't even considered that other vets could be scum/3rd party. You're not concerned with that at all. You're total scum. Toades was a vet and I tunneled him... | ||
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Ur basically guaranteed hit or rbd though Hatter just throw bombs down and lets lynch him tomorrow | ||
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I just got home from work and it was the busiest day since Black Friday somehow so I'm gonna relax for the rest of the night, I'll be around for a while if anyone wants to ask me anything but I'm not gonna put any work in tonight. I'll be up in the morning to actually read and stuff. | ||
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i liked him on day 1 but not day 2, weird association stuff with geript too it seems | ||
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On March 03 2013 13:58 grush57 wrote: Tho if geript is scum then we got this in the bag. Scumteam should just give up if we get 3 lynch in a row | ||
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Geript is my case bitches of course I'm voting for him | ||
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On March 04 2013 09:17 geript wrote: Thanks for wasting my time. With full sincerity, mafia might not be for you if you take it this hard | ||
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On March 04 2013 09:21 MilkSuckler wrote: OK.. so we are back to 48hrs with a thumb stuck in a bum Scum should concede but I vote for a 24 hr day Take out the trash : geript , aqua , hassy , layb, jcarls | ||
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Serious rules confusion is a slight towntell | ||
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Figures Anyway I'm pretty set on Vivax being SK. Explains his anti-town behavior. If you are SK Vivax, you should claim. Your best shot is to claim and promise to town that you will hit our best scum candidates to stay alive longer and hope you can force some kind of weird situation where you can actually win the game. Unless scum RB's you indefinitely you'll be found out anyway. I think that's how it works anyway. This game is weird, not in a setup way but it just feels like everything has collapsed and now we're just gonna keep lynching lurkers/spammers until town wins. | ||
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If 2 people continue to die every set of cycles this game will take like 6-7 more days to get close to a lylo situation that would be an insane amount of time for 2 scum to hide out | ||
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I hate to say it but my interest level in this game has dropped to basically 0. Has nothing to do with lack of effort from the moderators, but when town goes 3 in a row and no one is really taking hard stances I don't know what to contribute. We've already won so anything I do now just feels like going through the motions. I don't really need to push anything cause it's moving in the right direction as far as I'm concerned. | ||
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There is a right way to respond to pressure and defend yourself and you haven't found that yet. That doesn't make it okay for you to blame everyone else for it. | ||
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On March 05 2013 06:45 geript wrote: I'm going to go ahead and put all the internet points on a big fat no to that. Perhaps you should count how many people and how many times people flat out said I was the next sure lynch even before Chez had flipped. Trust me, my play was pretty bad this game but it's not all my fault. Hell, most of this D3 is literally because WF asked me to spend time and reinvest in the game with the sole intention of me still being lynched. Why should I do that? Why would my reads matter? Nope, it would've been far better for everyone involved if you guys had just move discussion on and lynched me. Because if you're going to flip town, it will help us win. Dead townies still win the game with the rest of the town. It's rare that you see townies give up so easily. Generally, only scum are that frustrated. You had already voted for yourself on Day 2 when you weren't even that close to getting lynched. You absolutely could have done a lot and chose not to. That's on you. Because of that, things have snowballed out of control to a point that I don't think anybody is going to consider letting you live any longer but that doesn't happen to town who play well. | ||
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I remember a game when I asked scum to bus me cause I was gonna die anyway and they just kept defending me anything. WIFOM. | ||
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On March 05 2013 08:00 geript wrote: Doc can I ask you a serious question? Do you have any intention of reading my filter for my reads or thoughts? Do you really expect anyone else do to that after the game I've played? I did that on Day 2 when I voted for you and nothing has changed. | ||
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RB Aquanim, wait for him to claim it then jump all over him saying there's no reason scum wouldn't rb vivax and he's a liar = a pretty good scum plan to force a mislynch so it's ultimately WIFOM | ||
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On March 06 2013 04:24 geript wrote: So Doc, how u feel about WoS? Sorry a few beeers in. Let me look at his filter. I actually did get a weird scripted feel Day 1 but I dropped it because I was tending to agree with his reads. Honestly, if you flip town I'm not opposed to taking a strong look at him. I've been scum almost as much as I've been town and I'd bet an arm and a leg that at least 1 scum has gone along with the recent lynches and is making a move for town cred to separate himself from the inactive scum. If I had to guess based on my gut who that would be it would be WoS or BlazingHand. Just woke up though so it'll be a bit. I was planning on looking toward Randombum tonight tho | ||
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On March 06 2013 06:40 Aquanim wrote: You think scum BH would have hard-bussed Chezinu day 2 like he did, reducing scum KP to ONE? 0.o 0.o 0.o It's something I would do | ||
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Randombum has completely dipped out. Has he done anything beyond his Day 1 stuff? What seems suspicious to me is that he was very engaged on Day 1, but only engaged in his stupid argument about a scum mayor. His interest level dipped down completely when there was actually stuff to do and he hasn't been involved in the actual lynch discussions beyond one-liners and sheeping other people iirc. Aquanim/jcarlsoniv are my guess for the other two scum but I'll set aside some time tonight to look hard at WoS. To extend a figurative olive branch to the deceased Geript. | ||
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1. Scum won't waste a shot on me with 1 KP assuming I'm a veteran or there could be another doc in the game 2. Scum are intentionally avoiding shooting "big name vets" (I hate saying that) to mask that they are led by one. - This is a plan I've personally employed as scum, to intentionally hit lurkers/less experienced players to push suspicion onto different vets around Day 3-4. jcarlsoniv, why would you believe Chezinu is town and JungleJorge is somehow a scumslipper? You're one of only three people to not vote Chez yesterday including myself and geript (who voted for himself). Do you still believe that Vivax and JungleJorge hatched a plan together? Would you suggest they are the two remaining scum? If anyone else considers that to be the case, note that Prom FoS'd JJ before he was lynched and Vivax FoS'd JJ as well in his largest post. | ||
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On March 06 2013 10:35 TestSubject893 wrote: Jeez, I don't understand what was going through geript's head to act the way he did. I guess its not worth while to dwell on it right now though. I feel like things got a lot more wide open with neither Hassy or geript flipping scum. (We've had relatively easy decisions on the lynches up until now.) I think looking more closely at randombum could be a good move from here. I'll reexamine him. I'm glad you popped up in here to give a non-committal summary. I demand to see your own independent thoughts on Randombum by the end of the night cycle. | ||
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wasn't it you who said that his jailer claim made you more certain than ever that he was scum? | ||
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On March 06 2013 14:26 jcarlsoniv wrote: DrH himself (the one you've been so keen to buddy up to most of the thread) said earlier this game: Someone who says they are going to do something and never does it is probably scum (I may be paraphrasing). That's not always true but any player who makes a big deal about how he is a threat to scum and is going to scumhunt hard past Day 1 and then doesn't consistently contribute is generally scum a lot of scum vets take this approach | ||
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no1 seemed to care much about BC's reads when he died, or toadesstern, or ve, or anyone else | ||
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On March 06 2013 14:55 MilkSuckler wrote: Whose riding WoS? Are you even reading the thread anymore, or just pretending to contribute? No, not really. Skimming. I shouldn't say anything until I actually read like I should so I'll be quiet until I sit down and read like I keep saying I'm going to. | ||
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leaving for work in an hour the right people are all in the spotlight so tbh im not even worried about this game. i wont have time to post anything significant so if I die tonight, I agree with testsubject's thing on randombum but not convinced that TS is town. After coming to the conclusion that randombum is a null read, don't even post that case and find someone else you think is suspicious he doesn't seem to suspect anyone at all which is basically impossible at this point if you're town he just did what the vocal townie told him to do without any independence or effort into finding scum which is the goal if you're town, the goal is not to do what others (mafia) tell you to do or to appear as nonconfrontational as possible | ||
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I'm just a little surprised that you had that little to say about randombum and no follow through about an actual scum read. I don't see how the number of night kills tonight would have anything to do with aquanim, did he claim vigilante or something? Scum has 1 KP and they could either succeed or fail with it. That doesn't tell me anything unless I'm missing something. | ||
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1. A veteran 2. Protected by doctor or armorer 3. SK And the rest of their night actions did resolve? I'm not saying this to defend aquanim, but that's not really a strong point. Suspicion of aqua should be based on his play, not night action wifom | ||
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I didnt policy lynch anybody, I thought toades was scum 100% on behavior I never defend wos I just havent read his filter yet Lynch milksuckler | ||
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On March 07 2013 11:01 MilkSuckler wrote: LOL.. this is serious comment from you Dr.H? Yeah, you're lying and pushing a horrible lynch rn | ||
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When did I really ever defend wos and saying me pushing toades was a policy lynch is ridiculous | ||
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@MilkSuckler - I never defended WoS. I said I would read into him last night and just went to sleep before I really could. Why would you call me out for defending a player you think is town? Can you explain how my tunneling of toadesstern was based in any way on a "policy lynch"? Attacking JJ and supporting his lynch is indefensible. JJ is almost certainly the town roleblocker. If you believe JJ is lying then you must also believe that Vivax is his scumbuddy. You're not committing to your own read here though which is really worrisome. I think we should lynch you today. | ||
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i like the case on jcarlsoniv so ill just sheep right now | ||
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On March 08 2013 01:56 glurio wrote: So i went and looked at some of the flipped scum filters. Did someone mention this already? Pretty sure someone from that list of greens is actually scum. Didn't we at some point say we lynch geript and if he flips town we lynch aqua? If we don't lynch jcarlsoniv today we should either lynch grush or aqua. Probably grush because he's useless. I'll try to do more analysis later tonight, if i got internet at work that is. | ||
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The game does not work with scum only defending scum and only attacking town | ||
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"Scum is lynching glurio to association push me after he flips red!" Yet states he thinks glurio is town Sounds to me like some prior knowledge why else would you be so paranoid about this flip | ||
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On March 08 2013 08:21 The Macho Man wrote: yeah im not getting panicked from wos im getting clueless which is townie. You must be his teammate then | ||
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On March 08 2013 09:31 WaveofShadow wrote: Hey DrH, completely given up on this game? ObviousOne? More or less but things are getting interesting now and I actually have tomorrow off so unless i really stop caring I'll at least try to post some actual thoughts (effort ones) before the night ends Every night after work has been killer I immediately start pounding beers because my leg hurts so fucking bad and I can't focus on anything | ||
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On March 08 2013 09:49 jcarlsoniv wrote: You're dead set on me being scum, and yet you want grush dead tomorrow... If I'm scum, not calling out WoS here necessarily, grush is my favorite lynch because you don't actually have to demonstrate any effort/work in analyzing him because every post he ever makes as either alignment has 0 value | ||
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On March 08 2013 09:52 jcarlsoniv wrote: Sorry, can you clarify that for me? You mean "if I were scum in WoS's position"? town grush is an ideal push for a lategame scum because there is good reason to tunnel him but in doing so you don't reveal anything about yourself because it requires no work the more effort you have to put into a fake case the more likely it is that your bad logic/scum intentions will be exposed this is why as scum i like to avoid drawn out 1:1 "one of us is mafia" arguments until lategame because when that person flips green i'm basically dead and I'm very likely to fuck up at some point in the argument, hitting grush is zero risk | ||
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On March 09 2013 07:21 TestSubject893 wrote: I see where you're coming from with the vivax thing, but I'd still prefer aqua if we're gonna kill someone based on the N2 actions. Jcarl is still a high priority to me as well. If scum didn't send in their night actions properly (seems highly unlikely oatsmaster wouldn't have told them directly in the scum qt/irc) how would aqua not realize that and still claim RB? are you positive it's impossible that scum missed their shot? | ||
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Vivax is an immediate lynch if Promethelax flips red. Do not allow anyone to derail this. His huge post of reads and little categorizations is the worst post I've seen in this game so far. Not necessarily in pure scumminess, but just in how little substance it has. How unhelpful. I don't care who is "the serious one" or "the jokey one", what the fuck does that have to do with finding scum? My point is - WHY SHOULD ANYONE CARE ABOUT AN UNDEVELOPED READ? - If you're going to spend the game throwing FoS's around and little reads "Oh, I'm leaning scum on DrH, his posting is really aggressive...." "Oh, I think DrH is really towny he's made a lot of sense to me" ^ if that's the best you can do, don't bother. That won't convince anyone. In retrospect I'm not really able to get proper reads out for the early behaviour since it seems that scummy people seem to be scattered across the categories, but I thought I'd make an on-the-go-attempt to use that type of analysis. Oh, good thing I read that huge ass post only to learn you have no fucking opinion. If I can come up with strong reads looking through peoples filters, why can't you put in that work? Oh, you're not looking for scum, you're looking to see who the "serious" and "jokey" players are. What a huge credit to town. I submit that Vivax should be nightkilled. If he's scum, great. If he's town that's a few more long posts that I no longer have to waste my time reading. If Prom flips red, he's done. On February 27 2013 02:22 DoctorHelvetica wrote: "I have knowledge that Prom is scum therefore I can make a better argument, since he's my teammate and all" ? "But Prom is my teammate, we should all really lack confidence about this lynch!" How about we lynch the guy that attacked me that one time. I know it was a totally insignificant part of the thread but it matters to me. Everyone pay attention to how great my post was earlier? Did you read it????? Did you read it? I'm town!" When Vivax said this, the points he mentioned for Prom being scum are the exact same that me and Toadesstern had already made. His original points were all intended to push Promethelax as a NULL READ. Yep, I'm ready to lynch Vivax. Note in his game in British Empire Mini (easy to pull up) he's immediately direct with his reads and arguments, logical, such a different game. He's been picking it up lately but that doesn't mean anything. On February 28 2013 12:24 DoctorHelvetica wrote: I think we should lynch Vivax. Go look through his post, he started off by saying the best way to find scum is to find people that take the game seriously instead of trolling. After putting a bunch of people in that category, he was only willing to point a finger at JJ. Not actively interested in the Prom case but spends a ton of time only to slap a null read on there. The way he reacted to me initially calling me out is troubling. He didn't OMGUS but did have a bunch of insults and mockeries to throw my way. I'm getting kinda woozy and doubtful, I hate night 1 because I start rolling over in second guesses. I need to reset my head. I'm nowhere near ready to start reading Toades' filter, I'll need at least 2 more beers before I attempt that. The people who are serious at the beginning of games tend to be scum according to Vivax's big post. Vivax in British Empire Mini Mafia was serious from the get go and was town. In his huge post he only FoS'd JungleJorge and his logic for that call out has nothing to do with the logic he spent 1-2 paragraphs explaining. Here it is for good measure: On February 27 2013 00:27 Vivax wrote: Early game has been known to me for being not much serious and not very posty by many players. This early game instead kickstarted. I think an effective way to find scum in these stages is to find people who are too serious in a trolly environment and trying to look like they're posting a lot there. Now there are voices that say that policy discussion favours mafia. Given the way people were still talking about the stupid mayor dozens of pages into the thread it also seems townies love to talk about policy just cause of the sheer amount of people talking about it. That will make it hard to identify mafia just based on policy talk alone. What is instead possible is to categorize people into multiple classes based on the tone of their posts and also about policy interest, although mafia probably won't be findable just cause of the latter while townies talk so much about that as well. Proceeding - chronological order: ______________________________________________________________________________________________________ Me: Jokey start. MilkSuckler: Trolly start, bait post. WaveOfShadow: Motivational early post, announces he'll lay back and watch. Layabout: Posts a creepy drawing, proposes the policy to lynch policy proposers. Toad: doesn't want to be mayor. VE: Announces candidacy, asks if he should run against MS. Aquanim: Serious question to MS if he wants to run despite no bodyguards. Restraining Order: Says MS didn't read, subtly criticizes pre-written post. Toad: Talks bad about MS cause of prewritten post. Turns it into a WF support into lynching MS right after. Then unvotes and uncovers the posts' origin. ObviousOne: Candidacy of jokey nature. JJ: Mayor irrelevant, vote for the guy lynching the right guy. BH: Semi-jokey candidacy, attacks JJ for previous statement. ______________________________________________________________________________________________________ Prom: Candidacy with serious sounding post. BH: Explains implications of mayoral candidacy. JJ: Expresses doubts about WF's activity. ______________________________________________________________________________________________________ That is enough material to extrapolate useful information for a start. The line indicates more or less the moment shit gets serious and the joke phase is over. Pretty quickly that was. Boring serious people: WoS, Toad, VE, aquanim, restraining order, JJ, Prom. In between people: Layabout, BH Jokey: Me, Milksuckler, ObviousOne Talks about mayoral election: Toad, VE, aquanim, OO, JJ, BH Doesn't talk about it: restraining order, me Let's get down to business then. First of all I would like to give you my opinion about the mayoral election: I didn't give it much importance. One lynch, two votes, that's it. A townie looking guy gets elected, either a townie looking guy gets confirmed if he hits scum or townie looking scum rides the wave to a mislynch and can shake off responsibility for it. My major interest laid in creating a nice atmosphere where we can have fun together and catch butterflies all day so that people who are scum actually feel safe to play like scum. What I've learned in past games is that people I read as scum got a valid reason to not answer questions when I actually read them as scum and called them like that. "Oh what you call me scum you idiot fine I'll ignore you" fuck that shit. To catch scum you have to let them feel cosy, when they think they didn't have the pressure to post for two days, then you will struck them with holy might knowing that they actually had the confidence to really play like lurky scum. When they don't know you will push for their lynch at deadline they will post more information, closer to their agenda than to the one made visible by townies. Since town doesn't seem to want to adopt such an innovative strategy, let's move on with standard play. Purely based on these early game interactions I've become wary of restraining order/marv given his early dead serious tone despite the comparatively low interest into the mayor candidates. He subtly shovelled shit at MS for that awesome post and fucked off ignoring most of the early opinions. However, given his later contributions to the pardoner talk, dissuading town from following Toad's terrible plan, my read switched back to a more townie one, especially when he suggested that WoS should be elected, which I agree with. I am curious to see what else he will contribute. ObviousOne first serious post was when he spat out his geript scumread that made me suspicious of him, I actually liked his answer, very townie cause bold along with his lighthearted early posts. aquanim I have a slight scumread on, his early contributions consist of asking MS a pointless question and then saying there's a voting thread. He likes to pick on people like WoS and OO, who I have townreads on and are at best guilty of lighthearted and at worst clumsy play. Most of his filter looks much artificial, his answers to reads look forced. I advise you to analyse him properly and I will support a mayor willing to lynch him. Layabout could be lurky scum. If he's town I'd like him to post more. I remember him being an aggressive pusher as town in fruity mafia. JJ is a good lynch candidate. His attack on me for playing casually is a scum trait, and he quit pursuing me asking me a weird question about what I think. Well, after the last refresh (23:40 TL time) I see he's actually back to get me. Saying I didn't follow up after calling him scummy for what he did, too bad that I went to sleep around 3 AM and I'm spending 2:30 hours with reading and writing this post, so his argument is again scummy and not thought out. The argument he's used didn't apply to me, but also to Toad and some other dudes. He seems to think people trying to guess smurf identities are scum, as pointed out in my earlier post. Last on in the chronology and hotly disputed in the thread: Prom. There's a lot to work on with him. What bothers me about Prom is his unusual lack of confidence. He came dead serious into the thread with his RNG lynch idea, but didn't actually RNG anyone at that point, and even said he would lynch himself, which is a retarded thing to do when you know you're town. When people criticized him for his behaviour regarding the RNG, he quickly switched to a WoS lynch preference. Then he votes VE, who wants to lynch him. Again, a point towards scumprom, who would probably not want to get lynched as town, it looks like a subtle buddying attempt. Then again, it confuses me that he's been interacting in a way with VE that suggests that he would rethink his townread on me if just VE convinced him. That was after VE said he thinks I'm scum based on association with Prom (stupid reason). Trying to see this from a scumprom perspective, this doesn't make sense to me. A scumprom would probably try to convince VE that there is an association and that he's null or town on me to frame me for later. Instead he expressed being content with changing his read on me if VE convinced him. I am null on Prom given how he's been handling his reads of me. Geript looked pretty scummy to me yesterday, but since he's a newbie that might just be a consequence of that. His attacks on me cause of me being casual made me pretty suspicious, and his blabber about an agenda linked to that as well, but I don't want to lynch a newbie this early, they can look scummy as either alignment. In retrospect I'm not really able to get proper reads out for the early behaviour since it seems that scummy people seem to be scattered across the categories, but I thought I'd make an on-the-go-attempt to use that type of analysis. NOTE THE LITTLE RETROFIT HERE Vivax started the game by trolling and then in his first serious post goes on to say that trolling is pretty much a definite towntell (as we can clearly see from Chezinu). After I started pressuring him he became extremely angry and insulting (check his filter). Compare this to his play, again, from British Empire Mini Mafia where he was not like this AT ALL. | ||
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On March 09 2013 08:05 DoctorHelvetica wrote: I don't see how Vivax's logic in that post proves he is scum, you failed to demonstrate scum motivation only associations. Let me look back through my filter to find out what I was thinking when I was actually caring about this game. oh. When Vivax said this, the points he mentioned for Prom being scum are the exact same that me and Toadesstern had already made. His original points were all intended to push Promethelax as a NULL READ. Yep, I'm ready to lynch Vivax. Note in his game in British Empire Mini (easy to pull up) he's immediately direct with his reads and arguments, logical, such a different game. He's been picking it up lately but that doesn't mean anything. The people who are serious at the beginning of games tend to be scum according to Vivax's big post. Vivax in British Empire Mini Mafia was serious from the get go and was town. In his huge post he only FoS'd JungleJorge and his logic for that call out has nothing to do with the logic he spent 1-2 paragraphs explaining. Here it is for good measure: + Show Spoiler + On February 27 2013 00:27 Vivax wrote: Early game has been known to me for being not much serious and not very posty by many players. This early game instead kickstarted. I think an effective way to find scum in these stages is to find people who are too serious in a trolly environment and trying to look like they're posting a lot there. Now there are voices that say that policy discussion favours mafia. Given the way people were still talking about the stupid mayor dozens of pages into the thread it also seems townies love to talk about policy just cause of the sheer amount of people talking about it. That will make it hard to identify mafia just based on policy talk alone. What is instead possible is to categorize people into multiple classes based on the tone of their posts and also about policy interest, although mafia probably won't be findable just cause of the latter while townies talk so much about that as well. Proceeding - chronological order: ______________________________________________________________________________________________________ Me: Jokey start. MilkSuckler: Trolly start, bait post. WaveOfShadow: Motivational early post, announces he'll lay back and watch. Layabout: Posts a creepy drawing, proposes the policy to lynch policy proposers. Toad: doesn't want to be mayor. VE: Announces candidacy, asks if he should run against MS. Aquanim: Serious question to MS if he wants to run despite no bodyguards. Restraining Order: Says MS didn't read, subtly criticizes pre-written post. Toad: Talks bad about MS cause of prewritten post. Turns it into a WF support into lynching MS right after. Then unvotes and uncovers the posts' origin. ObviousOne: Candidacy of jokey nature. JJ: Mayor irrelevant, vote for the guy lynching the right guy. BH: Semi-jokey candidacy, attacks JJ for previous statement. ______________________________________________________________________________________________________ Prom: Candidacy with serious sounding post. BH: Explains implications of mayoral candidacy. JJ: Expresses doubts about WF's activity. ______________________________________________________________________________________________________ That is enough material to extrapolate useful information for a start. The line indicates more or less the moment shit gets serious and the joke phase is over. Pretty quickly that was. Boring serious people: WoS, Toad, VE, aquanim, restraining order, JJ, Prom. In between people: Layabout, BH Jokey: Me, Milksuckler, ObviousOne Talks about mayoral election: Toad, VE, aquanim, OO, JJ, BH Doesn't talk about it: restraining order, me Let's get down to business then. First of all I would like to give you my opinion about the mayoral election: I didn't give it much importance. One lynch, two votes, that's it. A townie looking guy gets elected, either a townie looking guy gets confirmed if he hits scum or townie looking scum rides the wave to a mislynch and can shake off responsibility for it. My major interest laid in creating a nice atmosphere where we can have fun together and catch butterflies all day so that people who are scum actually feel safe to play like scum. What I've learned in past games is that people I read as scum got a valid reason to not answer questions when I actually read them as scum and called them like that. "Oh what you call me scum you idiot fine I'll ignore you" fuck that shit. To catch scum you have to let them feel cosy, when they think they didn't have the pressure to post for two days, then you will struck them with holy might knowing that they actually had the confidence to really play like lurky scum. When they don't know you will push for their lynch at deadline they will post more information, closer to their agenda than to the one made visible by townies. Since town doesn't seem to want to adopt such an innovative strategy, let's move on with standard play. Purely based on these early game interactions I've become wary of restraining order/marv given his early dead serious tone despite the comparatively low interest into the mayor candidates. He subtly shovelled shit at MS for that awesome post and fucked off ignoring most of the early opinions. However, given his later contributions to the pardoner talk, dissuading town from following Toad's terrible plan, my read switched back to a more townie one, especially when he suggested that WoS should be elected, which I agree with. I am curious to see what else he will contribute. ObviousOne first serious post was when he spat out his geript scumread that made me suspicious of him, I actually liked his answer, very townie cause bold along with his lighthearted early posts. aquanim I have a slight scumread on, his early contributions consist of asking MS a pointless question and then saying there's a voting thread. He likes to pick on people like WoS and OO, who I have townreads on and are at best guilty of lighthearted and at worst clumsy play. Most of his filter looks much artificial, his answers to reads look forced. I advise you to analyse him properly and I will support a mayor willing to lynch him. Layabout could be lurky scum. If he's town I'd like him to post more. I remember him being an aggressive pusher as town in fruity mafia. JJ is a good lynch candidate. His attack on me for playing casually is a scum trait, and he quit pursuing me asking me a weird question about what I think. Well, after the last refresh (23:40 TL time) I see he's actually back to get me. Saying I didn't follow up after calling him scummy for what he did, too bad that I went to sleep around 3 AM and I'm spending 2:30 hours with reading and writing this post, so his argument is again scummy and not thought out. The argument he's used didn't apply to me, but also to Toad and some other dudes. He seems to think people trying to guess smurf identities are scum, as pointed out in my earlier post. Last on in the chronology and hotly disputed in the thread: Prom. There's a lot to work on with him. What bothers me about Prom is his unusual lack of confidence. He came dead serious into the thread with his RNG lynch idea, but didn't actually RNG anyone at that point, and even said he would lynch himself, which is a retarded thing to do when you know you're town. When people criticized him for his behaviour regarding the RNG, he quickly switched to a WoS lynch preference. Then he votes VE, who wants to lynch him. Again, a point towards scumprom, who would probably not want to get lynched as town, it looks like a subtle buddying attempt. Then again, it confuses me that he's been interacting in a way with VE that suggests that he would rethink his townread on me if just VE convinced him. That was after VE said he thinks I'm scum based on association with Prom (stupid reason). Trying to see this from a scumprom perspective, this doesn't make sense to me. A scumprom would probably try to convince VE that there is an association and that he's null or town on me to frame me for later. Instead he expressed being content with changing his read on me if VE convinced him. I am null on Prom given how he's been handling his reads of me. Geript looked pretty scummy to me yesterday, but since he's a newbie that might just be a consequence of that. His attacks on me cause of me being casual made me pretty suspicious, and his blabber about an agenda linked to that as well, but I don't want to lynch a newbie this early, they can look scummy as either alignment. In retrospect I'm not really able to get proper reads out for the early behaviour since it seems that scummy people seem to be scattered across the categories, but I thought I'd make an on-the-go-attempt to use that type of analysis. NOTE THE LITTLE RETROFIT HERE Vivax started the game by trolling and then in his first serious post goes on to say that trolling is pretty much a definite towntell (as we can clearly see from Chezinu). After I started pressuring him he became extremely angry and insulting (check his filter). Compare this to his play, again, from British Empire Mini Mafia where he was not like this AT ALL. Also the fact that he came out with that huge post instead of just immediately attacking and pressuring JJ is scummy. | ||
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so why would you vote for vivax? | ||
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On March 09 2013 09:19 MilkSuckler wrote: BTw.. for those that are still thinking scum forgot to execute the N2 NK. seriously.. have you played scum before (1) the host reads the QT, and often the NK is discussed there (2) the host typically will PM the scum team, if no actions have been given. Everything was made in the favour for scum to execute the NK... the argument that this chance is more likely than the logic i am explaining, is a strawman argument.. and implies you think aquanim is guaranteed scum. My filter dump of the FLIPPED scum players, suggests aquanim is clear as non-scum; which again is more evidence to the contrary of "fail to submit" actions. Just because *YOU* think its stupid to shoot your own, doesnt mean it can not happen. Scum play needs to be innovative.. town have been demolishing scum left, right and center. Shooting your own, whilst not innovative, is still a big deviation from the norm, and is acceptable play considering the position RO was in. I agree and Vivax pushed Aquanim before based on nonsense There's no way scum didn't send in night actions, oatsmaster would absolutely contact them thinking otherwise isn't wifom it's retarded shame my interest level has been so low that im only realizing that now | ||
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keep pushing jcarl then | ||
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oh well thats a WIFOM argument I guess, but this is how I think | ||
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My only guess would be town has a mad hatter or several armorers. | ||
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it usually goes in a pm as one list like "ok tonight we're hitting w x , roleblocking y and framing z" no way oats didnt give them a heads up in the scum qt and no way did every single member of scum miss that bolded post. i dont believe that. If there is another vigilante or armorers now is the time to claim. if we have 1 mad hatter and 1 or 2 armorers, thats plenty of potential town KP from a balance setup, considering scum max out at only 2 KP that makes sense to me | ||
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And wos scum | ||
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On February 26 2013 12:14 DoctorHelvetica wrote: WoS has done nothing to indicate to me that he is definitely town, in fact I find his most recent posts sort of worrisome. Scumhunting is bandwagoning. If no one applies pressure after a case, if no one puts the heat on then what is the point? I made a long post about Promethelax and so far no one has anything to talk about except some stupid shit about pardoner? We've had a million games with a pardoner. It's a bad role. Anti-town by nature. There is no way for us to know who is going to get it and it's not worth worrying about as much as it's worth worrying about lynching scum (especially interesting considering Day 1 is the only lynch that can not be interfered with by the pardoner) Remember the example of the scummiest post ever from Ver's Guide where tree.hugger said (paraphrase) "Yeah, I think youngminii has really great cases against him. Good scum read. Don't think I'm gonna vote for him though." (They were scum teammates in the end, and even if YM wasn't scum that is a damn scummy thing to say) That's exactly the kind of hesitation that's incredibly suspicious and it isn't too far away from what WoS is saying. He's not willing to call Prom scum despite praising my accusation, so what the hell? Not interested in his ramblings about the pardoner either. Why wouldn't scum, trying to get pardoner, try to do so in the most townlike way possible? Why wouldn't scum use the platform of pardoner/mayor as a method to try to buy credibility with town despite the role not being all that useful? Why should I trust someone who spent more effort explaining why he should be pardoner than trying to ensure we lynch the right way today? Why should I take "scumhunting good, bandwagon (pressure is what this really means) bad" as a pro-town sentiment? WoS has been all over the place with his voting and never really seemed to me to apply real pressure unlike actual confused townies. Only now is he coming out with "lynch the vet" when my survival was highly suspect already by Day 3-4 (not so suspect when you consider how bad my reads have been past Day 1). | ||
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Sounds good to me I guess. A Vivax flip as town will prove your associations are shit, and are likely scum, while a scum flip pretty much confirms you for town, in which case we've basically won anyway once Soniv goes down. It's a win-win baby. Oops look who tried to deflect the nail-in-the-coffin bandwagon yesterday | ||
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ALSO - If you want to fight a lynch against me, try having a better argument then "you're alive therefore scum" and come up with some real reasons. | ||
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why didn't me being alive yesterday set you off or shit even the day before that? all of a sudden you're sure i'm scum now? you're doing this instead of analysis on randombum/grush/testsubject all of whom have come under heavy suspicion at some point or another in this game? | ||
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On March 11 2013 10:03 WaveofShadow wrote: Why do YOU care so much to actually pressure me all of a sudden after doing nothing for the past 3 days? Same reason I'll bet. Because we're inching closer to LYLO and I haven't done nothing for the past 3 days, I filled out a case on Vivax who flipped scum. I was nominally involved in the glurio lynch but more than other lurkers like Randombum and Grush, what about them? | ||
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On March 11 2013 10:01 WaveofShadow wrote: Challenge accepted. Honestly I was thinking of just laying down and dying like Geript, but now it's actually on me to find some fucking scum or we lose. It's David against Dr. Goliath; I'm going to earn my right to play in your upcoming game. Also hold on a sec, how in the fuck did I deflect the Vivax case exactly? I meant exactly what I said there, but was wrong about Soniv. Soniv was town and I suspected he was either town or 3rd party. His logic was good and he put forth an honest effort to scumhunt but something felt off to me and it's clear now that what was missing was just how much he cared about the game like most people after RO died. | ||
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Explain how that is a scumtell though | ||
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tell me why not caring translates into scum in my case and why this means i am mafia instead of just bored | ||
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It's not beyond my reach but it's not something I ever do. Different people scumhunt in different ways. I limit myself to looking strictly between the lines because it's the thing I think I'm best at. It's why my Day 1 reads are so good and then my game takes a dive after that because I try to branch off with my analysis into things I'm not very good at doing. Some people like to catch scum by thinking really hard about the setup/night actions and laying traps or catching people in impossible logic/bad roleclaims. Those players fill that role pretty well and I don't because it's not the thing about mafia I find interesting, I just want to look at the behavior side of things. Some people like to ask lots of questions, some people like to rely on association reads, some people like to conspiracy theory, etc. I don't do any of those games. I swear to you I've gone 3-4 days into a game as town without even realizing there was a certain role in the game. Someone starts talking about the mad hatter and I didn't even know there was a mad hatter. I don't care because it's not really relevant to the way I analyze things. It's an aspect of my game I absolutely should improve on though, I'll give you that. If I was assuming mafia had 3 KP how would I make that assumption if I were scum? That's a point +100000 for how lazy I'm playing but has nothing to do with my alignment. I figured mafia killed MilkSuckler after learning his bombs weren't on any of them and the fourth KP I didn't really pay attention to but you're right, it must be the bartender. I would tell you this though, as scum I take things very seriously and if I stopped caring about the game I'd at least ask for a replacement out of respect for my teammates. I wouldn't just tank and stop caring like I am now because I figured town had won a long time ago. Do you watch sports? It's like when an elite team plays against some scrub team not even going to make the playoffs and gets owned because they underestimate their opponents and don't even try. That's what I've done in this game. I won't make any promises that I will care a lot later but if I'm the last scum in this game, I would throw in the towel the right way which is a PM to GreYMisT. What I have learned to trust is my Day 1/2 analysis when I was caring about this game and I'm trying to get back in touch with what I was thinking then and put the rest of events into perspective. Vivax had absolutely no response to my case and after some weak confusion about the night actions there wasn't much of a defense except for people who wanted jcarlsoniv dead instead. It's not just that you had soniv as a higher scumread than Vivax (I'm dubious about that because I think I nailed him pretty hard on Day 1 but just got sidetracked whereas Jcarls at least put surface effort into scumhunting and was more townie about the way he acted by far) but you seemed to be legitimately upset that Vivax would be lynched at all. Now MilkSuckler is gone. So far you've managed to demonstrate that I've lacked interest and effort in this game - as is true for every game I play in - but now can you demonstrate why that makes me scum and what my scum motivations are for not even reading what happens? So I can reference my disinterested town meta that you have no idea about since it's been almost a year since I've been active? So I can make a meta defense (which I hate doing) against people who don't know me? That's a conspiracy theory at best. | ||
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oh i see | ||
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On March 13 2013 08:44 WaveofShadow wrote: GG guys! I'm really sad we fucked up due to inactivity but I'll try harder to make more cases lategame nest time. Any specific criticisms anyone has for me? (Aside from less WIFOMing myself and conspiracy theories?) More focus. Spend more time thinking about your top reads and tunneling on those. Try to parse out what scumtells worked for you in this game and which ones didn't and go back through scum filters and really look at the behavior over anything else. In general, just increasing your focus and ability to communicate your reads more concisely to the town will make you a better player. I felt like you were kind of all over the place with what you were posting about and pretty much everyone can benefit from trimming the fat and working on their scumhunting | ||
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On March 13 2013 08:28 layabout wrote: 1) why did you modkill toad and not hassy when hassy told toad stuff about the game?? 2) why the hell did y'all think toad was mafia??? 3)can anybody tell why they found me so scummy? 1) I personally wouldn't modkill a player for a slip like that, I'd talk to both of them in private and make sure that none of them ever brought it up in the thread. Toadesstern did the right thing by not going after hassy in that regard. Toades used outside information to push his own alignment and that's definitely intentional cheating imo, I was the one who brought it to the attention of the mods. 2) I have a better sense of his personality now. I just found it extremely convenient that he was that confident about a read 2 hours into the first day, tbh I don't think Prom's RNG stuff would have been incredibly problematic if he had improved his play later instead of basically scumclaiming. He used the rest of the day to push his town cred and insult everybody else and I just didn't see the townieness in it. I don't understand why he went off to say that the people that pushed Prom were basically confirmed town either and then martyred himself on top of all of that. It was very disappointing to me when he flipped. 3) Your interest in the game seemed really passive and I guess that's just the kind of player you are. I don't pay enough attention to the metagame/personality of particular people and it throws my reads off but I never really pushed you anyway. | ||
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On March 13 2013 09:24 TestSubject893 wrote: I had convinced myself you were scum sometime around day 3, but was too afraid of the spotlight to say anything. Scum either left me alive to push a late mislynch or they could feel my interest level/reads were poor enough that I wasn't a threat. My play was great Day 1, I stand by that, but when you don't read the thread for yourself it's easy to get swayed by mafia. I think by the time it was close to LYLO, I hadn't been interested in the thread for a while and there just wasn't enough time to really catch up and put all the pieces together. Funnily enough, I was reading the WoS lynch about an hour before it happened at work, locking up trailers, and the first thing I thought was "I really think I should have pushed TestSubject today". An hour later, WoS flips settler. | ||
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On March 13 2013 09:29 Mocsta wrote: Dr.H/anyone: Can i please have some constructive feedback? I thought you played pretty well. Read Ver's guide, look at your reads in this game and just tighten up your play. It's important to look at the instances you were right and why you were right, the instances you were wrong and why you were wrong, and then come to some kind of evaluation about what you contributed. Look through your filter and try to check off the kind of posts you made that didn't add anything productive and all of that. I thought you did an excellent job as far as sticking to your reads and you seemed pretty confident. That's a plus. | ||
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On March 13 2013 09:32 Toadesstern wrote: where did I use outside information to push my own alignment? Posting IRC/Whatever logs about you talking with another player about how town you were Saying you were talking with other people on skype and how they all knew you were town and thought we were stupid That's not ok. In fact I was going to quit the game if you weren't modkilled for it. | ||
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On March 13 2013 09:35 VisceraEyes wrote: To be fair, this is a sentiment that was fostered early on by Vivax...but whatever, I felt like I needed to say it to you because that's something you bought into. I basically forgot about my case on Vivax (lazy) but after he flipped blue in BEM I was pretty much 99.999% he was mafia in this game. | ||
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On March 13 2013 09:39 VisceraEyes wrote: This is something I wanted to talk about on the podcast. If you go after lurkers early you're never put in the situation you just described, and you get links to the scummy deflection to boot. Obviously if the whole fucking town lurks there's nothing you can do, but I feel like some lurker death early on would dissuade those kinds of shady tactics in future games... I've also started to think we need to punish bad town play more. People like grush57 surviving to endgame is an atrocity and having this attitude of "Well, that's just what he does" is really hurting TL Mafia as a whole. If the level of play is going to increase, resulting in better and more entertaining games, there has to be punishment for effortless and bad play and not permissiveness. If not lynches, then temporary bans or forcing these players to play with a coach/shadow in their next game. | ||
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In fact, it was the only reason I even considered for a moment that you were town. | ||
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On March 13 2013 09:45 TestSubject893 wrote: I'm curious; would you put me in the category of lurker this game? All game I was asking myself how this attitude ever became prominent. Seems really anti-town to not kill him every game for playing that way. Lynching lurkers can lead to a lot of short term failure but I think the state of TL Mafia as a whole is more important now watching how this game deflated. I apologize to town for losing us this game. By the end of the game I looked at my Day 1 filter and was blown away by how well I played in comparison. This trend continues with my town play. You were sort of a lurker. I think the problem with you was you seemed way too interested in doing what you thought town wanted you to do which implies guilt/fear. | ||
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On March 13 2013 09:52 Toadesstern wrote: That's everything I said about hassy in the thread. That's all I said about Hassy. How is that pushing in any direction. I made it as neutral as possible. I think what you said about Hassy was commendable tbh although I would have talked about it with a mod first. It was using those logs and referencing outside conversations to try to convince people that you are town. Games need to be insulated. | ||
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On March 13 2013 09:44 geript wrote: All for this, even if it forces me to shadow for a while. I need a ban past Day 1 or some kind of clause where I have to list all my reads at the end of Day 1 and I'm never allowed to vote for anyone else I think in Insane Mafia I PM'd a guess list of the scumteam to Artanis at the end of Day 1 that was 100% correct then voted for mislynches every single day following that | ||
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never martyr yourself regardless of alignment it guarantees your lynch there is always room to fight | ||
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On March 13 2013 12:28 Aquanim wrote: feh. Even more disappointed I couldn't push the TS lynch through. That's my responsibility in the end, I suppose, but I definitely felt nobody really read it (until maybe WoS just before his lynch). At least I was a NK for mafia and not just collateral damage to arsonist/hatter :/ Definitely sticking to minis for the future, this was not an enjoyable experience (too much thread and too many lurkers). The Game will be an enjoyable experience. I'm much much stricter about spamming/lurkers than other mods and there will be crazy flavor level far beyond anything I've done yet and I've already done a lot with that I came like within a hair of asking players for mailing addresses and physically mailing out role letters | ||
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I'm actually gonna make an audio post about this soon but basically good scum defense imo is all about figuring out what town sentiment is and determining how threatened you actually are. If you're not under threat suddenly making huge contributions and getting drawn into a 1 on 1 argument over a long period of time will bring a huge amount of attention on you. There's always a certain group of players who make it on everyones list of probable scum but no one ever makes the time to really pressure them and one of them is almost always scum/3rd party and they often win games. I think the absolute most important part of scum play is determining what town sentiment/direction is and subtly manipulating it. Making the towniest/most logical post is not the best thing to do. A town player could make an absolutely shut down case that makes absolute sense but that doesn't mean anyone will care. No one cared about TestSubject and that's exactly what you should want if you have that kind of role. Town should learn from the way he got away with very little pressure basically always under the guise of "ok he looks bad but we'll lynch him later" over and over again (of which I'm also guilty) I fall into this trap. Testsubject by Day 3 was WAY more suspicious than glurio or even geript to me but I pushed the other reads instead because I felt I had more to analyze or I had figured town sentiment lied elsewhere and it's a big mistake to play that way | ||
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For now I have download links: Part 1 Part 2 Stream links: Part 1 Part 2 I'll try to get streaming links up later tonight and probably start a more condensed podcast thread with an updated OP. Please listen and give any feedback you can, particularly what I need to work on in terms of my voice and the pace of how I talk, or if you want to hear more little solo casts and what you might like to hear me talk about. I hate listening to my voice so let me know about any problems with the sound quality and stuff because I'll probably have to continue using my phone for now. I'm using PCM Recorder on Android. Topics I cover: 1. Mafia LX (lightly) 2. Discerning/abusing town sentiment 3. How to abuse a players metagame as mafia 4. Null reads/read lists 5. Throwing shade at VisceraEyes 6. Constructing cases as town 7. People post too much I think that's about it. It's a little unfocused but it's definitely better than other things I've recorded and deleted, or at least it felt that way why I was recording it. It's a start. | ||
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it's actually kinda hard to explain strategies except in very general terms on the fly. when it comes to real casts, I'll be doing a lot of pre-writing and outlining | ||
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On March 13 2013 15:41 Blazinghand wrote: DrH want to get on skype or irc Wait for the first testcast, that'll be either tomorrow or thursday. I'm mafia'd out for right now, gonna hit the beers and play some dark souls | ||
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On March 13 2013 15:42 GreYMisT wrote: Anyway, I'm going to stick to themed games I think. At least when I make a GreYMisT Game people are too confused to be mad at each other or lurk we need to have a serious meta discussion at some point about how to deal with long signups and huge inactivity there are a ton of people on tl and the fact that it takes a week to get 25 people and only 15 of them try is a big problem and seems ridiculous to me | ||
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