EPTNewbie Mini Mafia XXXV - Page 29
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Corazon
United States3230 Posts
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zarepath
United States1626 Posts
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shz
Germany2686 Posts
On January 15 2013 00:09 Oatsmaster wrote: What do you think about how the lynch went down? I'm still figuring out what the fuck that was. Was the chaos just scared and confused townies, or was it a organized bus to help out laguerta? Or both? I think Spag hit in on the head with that: On January 15 2013 00:06 Spaghetticus wrote: + Show Spoiler + @OmniEulogy and to a lesser extent Zarepath Omni you seem to have taken something on board from my defense of Corazon in XXXIII, and Zare you seem to be sheeping the sentiment. (1) - On day one there was no resistance to a lynch on Laguerta. (2) - If Laguerta were scum, his scum buddies would be worried and try and make another bandwagon (C) - Laguerta is not scum. This mirrors my argument in defense of Corazon precisely, though this may not have been causal. I was wrong in making that argument because Corazon was scum and he was being bussed day one. I wasn't incorrect in thinking that at this skill level people are too thick to bus day one, but I did make a massive error which my good friend DP (he is actually my friend in RL and the reason I started play mafia, he is not my good friend because he coaches scum) was so nice as to point out. DP told me: "I was coaching scum and told them to bus Corazon" You see how my theorycrafting failed to take into account that there was a certain level of organisation created by a scum coach being an active participant in both the scum QT, and exerting control via personal messages? If a scum is being bandwagoned hardcore day one, the coach will tell the other scum to let natural selection take its course. I am not going to make a case or vote yet, as I have only read up to [22], but I don't want you thinking for a second that just because Laguerta had seven votes that he is not scum. This is what I meant with: On January 14 2013 16:55 shz wrote: + Show Spoiler + On January 14 2013 12:30 OmniEulogy wrote: In fact, it was mentioned earlier... not enough of a fight from mafia to keep Laguerta in the game... the fact that the only two votes that aren't on him are on two different people makes me highly doubt they are both mafia either... guys I think we fucked this up ##Unvote And 1,5h later, laguerta is not dead, but Mandalor, the vanilla town. Was this the bus you were waiting for? I'm not sure yet, but I'm trying to figure it out. On January 15 2013 00:09 Oatsmaster wrote: Laguerta hasnt posted since the 'no-lynch', I still think he is town. Zare, needs to follow up on this So you are not confident atm in anyone, but you still suspect those two? Anyone else? | ||
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shz
Germany2686 Posts
On January 14 2013 12:59 Oatsmaster wrote: MOCSTA ARE YOU SURE THAT LAGUARTA IS SCUM? What exactly was the meaning behind that? Like, what did you hope to achieve with that post? | ||
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Oatsmaster
United States16627 Posts
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Oatsmaster
United States16627 Posts
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OmniEulogy
Canada6590 Posts
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zarepath
United States1626 Posts
On January 14 2013 14:36 Oatsmaster wrote: EBWOP: Explain how my behaviour at the end of the lynch scum motivated. Im sure you have a lot of content to draw from. In an environment with 7 votes on one guy, I found it odd that your vote, after switching so many times, had FINALLY rested on the one person that everybody else was already voting for. It almost appeared as if you were just throwing suspicion around to see what would stick and what others would be willing to go for. And frankly, I had been put off all day by your emotional finger-pointing. Your first ten posts or so seemed almost to be designed to turn the thread into a churning cauldron of hatred.  I'm trawling filters today to catch up (busy Sat and Sun), and I just finished with yours, and although the things I mentioned above still raise flags on my scum radar, my overall read on you has since changed to the point that I'm not pushing for your lynch Day 2. (We'll see how N1 goes, though.) Going through more filters, and will monitor the end of the thread as I go. | ||
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Mocsta
Australia9387 Posts
Overall, I am still confused about the state of this town.. and have no idea who a suitable NK would be. As I have been an active contributor, I assume there is a chance it will be. so these are my last words if that is the case. (1) + Show Spoiler [Townies make mistakes] + When i flip you will understand all townies make mistakes. Obviously I did with Mandalor.. but please remember, other townies made mistakes during that lynch as well. Please put the goggles away. The focus of the scum hunt isn't to find confirmed townies.. its to lynch scum. Don't forget this. (2) + Show Spoiler [Support Oatsmaster] + I don't like his methods at all; especially because he reminds me of an enforcer/bully. But; I just can't see a scum player sticking the neck out this hardcore. At the start yes, I thought he was trolling; but since then, I think our differences are due to our methods of scum hunting. Different ideologies. I noticed some have voted him. I ask you to consider Oatsmasters actions, and seriously ask whether scum would behave this way. (3) + Show Spoiler [lurkers are not helping] + I dont know how we actually filled 29 pages of thread.. it feels like its all between a handful of posters. In fact when I do a filter search, only Oats/Omni/myself have more than 2 pages of filter. This is a concern. Guys Day2 it needs to be a priority to engage the lurkers. There *HAS* to be scum sitting there. History has proven this repeatedly. I would start by looking at what lurkers came in and threw a vote out of no where. Who bandwagoned, who tried to justify an opinion. These actions need to be brought into question; why is that an acceptable way to vote? (4) + Show Spoiler [My current scum read] + My reads have evolved since Day1. zarepath was someone I forgot about Day1. he flew under the radar, and then made his presence by landing a bomb. My reasoning for him is not OMGUS.. its actually due to the mismatch between his actions and his promises. The bomb he landed re-enforces this concept. On January 12 2013 14:51 zarepath wrote: I'm not 100% sure as to the best way to obtain a good town environment, but here are some things that come to mind: 1) Avoiding emotion. Mafia can use emotion as a mask for their bad logic, and if people are acting emotionally, they also tend to overlook better reads. I'd invite everyone to act and think as clearly and logically as possible, and if you feel strongly towards or about anybody, take a step back and think of a rational way to deal with it. Mafia want us to be emotional -- instead, we must be as Spocks. 2) Make clear cases and vote for good reasons. Town has coaches we can use to go over our scum reads and give us pointers before we post them. If our cases are not clear or well thought out, they cannot lead to positive discussion. Mafia want an environment of baseless accusations they can bandwagon onto without having to take the fall for it. Actively trawling filters as your reads evolve will help you to turn a case that started as "For some reason, I'm not sure if he's town" into "Here are the specific reasons I believe this person to be mafia." We're here to help each other's cases, and the more clear and direct they are, the easier it is for town to build up enough logical data to win. 3) Contribute quality posts. I think it is harder to know how to do this at the beginning, when there's fewer people to suspect and you're waiting for the last few people to start posting, but just take some time to look at your own posts before you post them -- does this argument make sense? Is there a purpose to what I'm saying? Mafia want everyone's filters to look fluffy. If we have a standard for quality content, it becomes harder for mafia to look like they're contributing. I hope we can all endeavor to build a strong town environment. And with that, I'm off to bed. So zarepath is advocating how to foster a strong town environment. Notably, anyone can copy/paste these questions. Its about whether his actions support his claims. I don't believe they do, as follows: (1) Im not really sure what the intention of this post is other than to get a reaction out of Oatsmaster. Its written in a "smart-arse" manner, and the QED claim is intentionally derogatory. We all know from my experience with Oatsmaster, he is officially a hot-head.. so what is the purpose of this? Its definitely contributing to the chaotic environment of Day 1. (2) On January 13 2013 06:40 zarepath wrote: Perhaps you can ask him something specific to talk about? Otherwise all he can do is sit there and talk about Mocsta's pool Again.. how is this fostering any collaborative environment. Its a contribution yes.. but half-arsed.. Why dont you suggest something.. instead of just point out a deficiency. (3) On January 13 2013 04:32 zarepath wrote: I like this a lot. It puts more work on townies, but it will become very difficult for scum to keep up appearances this way. zarepath. you like this.. but what work have you done to facilitate? You make an easy agreement and then do not follow through. This is exacerbated by your Night 1 accusation on me. You throw shit.. and expect people like Shz to follow through with question time. Why arent you breaking down cases as you alluded to promosing. (4) On January 14 2013 11:25 zarepath wrote: I'm voting for Laguerta because of his inability to pick someone to vote for. Feels pretty scummy, and I haven't had a chance to do real thorough reads today. (NO, goverment didn't confiscate my laptop today, but Sundays are generally my least-available days.) ##Unvote Acid~ ##Vote Laguerta Acid will be modkilled, and while replacing him isn't necessarily a good thing, we do know Laguerta is spineless. So, there it is. I'll be doing a more thorough filter read N1. Note the context.. when this vote was issued.. La Guerta was already the front runner.. i think 5 to 2. He moves from a no-post lurker.. to the current town flavour for bandwagon. The justification being modkill... how is this town behaviour or jsutification? I played with town zarepath last game. we were down to the final three. I know his game.. and so far.. its not matching up. (5) On January 14 2013 13:55 zarepath wrote: Mocsta has a LOT to answer for -- omgusing, over-defensiveness, and hammering Mandalor, who seemed especially not-scummy. Seriously.. WTF is this for a post.. Why is this fostering a good town environment... I dont care this is adressed to me.. its not a suitable post to be addressed to ANYONE.. Its completely open to interpretation and gets us no where. He conveniently doesnt add anything further to this, whilst Shz/Oats question me.. How curious.. Sow the seeds and then lurk away... I re-iterate.. this is in no way OMGUS.. look at the behaviour.. Do you find this acceptable? Why would town act this way? I cant see it. (6) On January 15 2013 00:13 zarepath wrote: Fair enough, Spag. I can see, based on his overtly scummy behavior, a scum coach telling the rest of scum to bus him hard. I will have to leave that option open in my analysis, then. So hes actually been reading and keeping up to date with the thread. So even though he says throws my name in the shit.. he lays silent when Im getting questioned.. and decides to randomly post for the new guy... If he didnt post. I would say.. OK. this guy is asleep. But that he posted to the new guy (who entered convo WAY after I was being questioned).. it suggests he is up to date. TL;DR Guys.. zarepaths post count is limited and many of his responses allow him to fly under the radar. Having said that.. in his short filter he has numerous actions which do not align with his quoted thoughts on how to achieve a good town atmosphere; and he has clear actions which do nothing to aid the confusion that was present near lynch time. I would contest he added fuel to the fire. This is why he is my top scum read. | ||
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Spaghetticus
Australia451 Posts
Mocsta – 4.8 pages with good contribution Oatsmaster – 4.2 pages with good contribution OmniEulogy – 2.7 pages with good contribution Mandalor – 2 pages with decent contribution Shz – 2 pages with average contribution Acid – 1 page with high contribution Zebezt – 1.5 pages with decent contibution Trotske – 1.1 pages with low contribution Zarepath – 1.1 pages with low contribution Laguerta – 8 posts with no content except defence Sno_man – 8 posts with no content except attacking Mocsta Glutio – 6 posts with no content but voting for LaGuerta While this took me 10min to scratch so some of the descriptions may not be entirely accurate, it gives a good indication of why town is fucking confused right now. Mandalor has far more content posted than most of you and he's been dead a while... In fact I've arguably got more actual contribution already than the bottom 3-5 posters, and I've been here like 12 hours or something. I am voting someone from Zebezt down. So one of: - Zebezt - Trotske - Zarepath - Laguerta - Sn0_man - Glutio This is not set in stone, but honestly I know better than to hope that each and everyone of you will participate. You have the option to take yourself off my list simply by lifting your activity. Once I feel that you are actually participating in the game I will not vote you as a result of policy. | ||
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Oatsmaster
United States16627 Posts
On January 15 2013 00:58 zarepath wrote: In an environment with 7 votes on one guy, I found it odd that your vote, after switching so many times, had FINALLY rested on the one person that everybody else was already voting for. It almost appeared as if you were just throwing suspicion around to see what would stick and what others would be willing to go for. And frankly, I had been put off all day by your emotional finger-pointing. Your first ten posts or so seemed almost to be designed to turn the thread into a churning cauldron of hatred. Lets go through my voting history, shall we? 1. Voted Mocsta, thought he was scummy as his posts had no content. Realized that if he was scum, he wont be able to keep up the pretense very long and besides, I found a new target. 2. Voted Bringaniga, less than 16 hours left, and still trolling. This is unacceptable and I told him so. 3. Voted Mandalor after it was obvious that Bringaniga was Kush. This is because of his 'easy' targets post which I thought was pretty scummy. I think he defends himself and shows that he is able to be active so we can see his alignment as the game goes on. 4. Voted laguerta cause at first glance, he looked so scummy. Read his filter, which I suggest everyone do, and realized that he was more like a newbie town than a newbie scum. 5. Voted Zebezt, its cause of Acid that I looked at his filter, so scummy. pushed his lynch until the deadline. So everyone, read zebezt filter. Dont be lazy. Then the lynch ended. Doesnt seem scummy to me.. | ||
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zarepath
United States1626 Posts
On January 14 2013 14:25 Mocsta wrote: @zarepath If you doubt my intentions, please have the courtesy and address some questions to me. You have identified 3 items that you think apply to me, can you please detail what the concerns are; and I will go about addressing them. I'm concerned that you guaranteed a lynch of a VT without really explaining why, and there was little forewarning of your switch. I'm reading the filters and I see your earlier case of him, which makes me think that it wasn't a completely unwarranted switch. I can understand how the last-minute chaos could lead to some unsettling and a reversion to an earlier read that you hadn't ever fully had refuted, and I can understand how the lack of time would lead to you not being able to post your explanation. I've also been concerned at how defensive you've been this game. I wonder how much of that is a reaction from feedback from the last game, because you didn't seem so defensive before. I also thought that you could NOT be scum because mafia would never be the last vote to lynch a townie (or at least never want to), but looking at the timeline of votes, you would have been the hammer no matter what -- either for remaining on Laguerta, or switching to Mandalor. You COULD have switched to one of the people with one vote or zero votes, but that would look suspicious without you having suspected them earlier, and it would look even more suspicious if Laguerta flipped town and you were the last person to bail, only when you knew that Laguerta would be lynched. So those are my concerns. | ||
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Oatsmaster
United States16627 Posts
Have you guys forgotten about him? On stuff like this, I'll also try to be more active now, weekend is over so i got more time. Only 4 more posts..... Glurio, what are your scum reads? considering the person you voted for got lynched. Tommorow after the night cycle, I think with the nk flip, there will be more info to make reads. Im going to sleep now, will be back before lynch. | ||
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OmniEulogy
Canada6590 Posts
Mandalor (3) - Trotske, glurio, Mocsta, Mocsta, Oatsmaster Laguerta (2) - Mandalor, Shz, Mocsta, Zarepath, Oatsmaster, OmniEulogy, glurio zebezt (2) - Acid~, Oatsmaster Oatsmaster (2) - zarepath, OmniEuology, Mocsta Sn0_Man (1) - Zebezt, Trotske, Mocsta Mocsta (1) - Sn0_Man, Oatsmaster bringaniga (0) - shz, Oatsmaster, Mandalor, Laguerta shz (0) - OmniEulogy Acid~ (0) - Zarepath, OmniEulogy No-Lynch (1) - Laguerta My case on OatsMaster. I was trying to write this up with 20 minutes left during D1, couldn't find the right words / was too pressured and feel like I left it unfinished. I want to explain why I voted for him, my thoughts behind it and why I believe it still makes sense after this lynch. I'll start off at the very beginning, his strange approach to the start of the game. + Show Spoiler + On January 13 2013 00:52 Oatsmaster wrote: Mocsta stop being useless and repeating what other people have already said. On January 13 2013 00:55 Oatsmaster wrote: Question 1. How does a yes/no question start discussion? Thats right, it doesnt. Question 2. How is that relevant in a game of Newbies where everyone is just trying to provide an answer that may not be accurate. Question 3. Please dont mention pool. Again. Instead of answering any of the questions, he deflects them and then becomes defensive, saying "2. I really dont want to answer that. Because I dont think my answer will help town in any way." after being asked about it again. He still refuses to discuss how scum would possibly go about playing this game. I highly doubt it's because he thinks they will use his idea's. I believe it is because he doesn't want us to know how he is going to play scum. This is speculation but should be taken into consideration. Especially considering the massive double standard he sets when accusing Mocsta in the early D1 hours. He attacks Mocsta for asking a question that could potentially be a yes/no question. NOBODY would answer Mocsta's question with a yes/no and get away with it, I don't believe its a town mindset to answer questions like Mocsta's with yes/no answers. Then we have this. + Show Spoiler + On January 13 2013 19:16 Oatsmaster wrote: Turning around and calling him scum for everything he's posted though without any real facts I really dont know what real facts your need to have before you lynch. A scumslip? You leave both of those open to 1 word answers. Just in case you don't know... Hypocrisy: Noun Do you think that Mocsta would answer those with 1 word? Exactly. Its all about context. That's a hard one... not answering questions and getting so defensive to the point of making a terrible case How was I defensive? I didnt even see the FoS before I posted the case as I mentioned above. Ok Omni, What scum reads do you have? He talks about not having any facts before a D1 lynch which is complete bullshit. As we found out there were many things to take into consideration during our D1 lynch. Next up, asks Mocsta two Yes/No questions. Gets Extremely defensive about doing it and says its about context. Wrong. Mocsta could have just as easily answered yes/no and been asked a ton of follow up questions, he didn't because it would be a dumb thing to do, just like the opening questions which Oats never answered fully. Lastly (and for the 2nd time this game) He asks for somebody elses reads after barely answering any concerns about him and deflecting. He claims scumslip but in reality He's already said "let me tell you why you are scum" to Mocsta. That confidence... with no facts he sure does know what alignment people are. "Also, with your current level of activity, and the way you defended yourself. ##Unvote HOWEVER I really dont like the way you are going around buddying everybody and keep referring to yourself as an excellent town player. " He backs off Mocsta as he realizes that nobody else is getting on this train and he's running out of fuel to throw at him, I don't recall Mocsta ever claiming himself to be an excellent town player either. His next post is this one + Show Spoiler + On January 13 2013 20:49 Oatsmaster wrote: Ok posters with little to no content laguerta Trotske Acid~ glurio Posters that seem to be trolling the shit out of the thread Bringniga ##Vote: bringaniga Its less than 12 hours to lynch and I know that you are active. Please contribute in a manner that will help town Either we lynch them, or lynch an active player. Also, in case you guys didnt read the OP or dont know, its plurality lynch so the person with the most votes at the end of the day will get lynched. THEREFORE there is no need to consolidate to lynch. HOWEVER town should consolidate in order to prevent scum from being able to affect the final vote with a last minute vote switch He goes after somebody I have kept my eye on as a potential for SCUM to try and lynch. Shz has already voted for him out of anger at this point making him an "easy" target. There are many other players who are lurking worse than Bringaniga at this point, AND bringaniga has said repetitively that he will be releasing cases in the future. Everything he has said I could see a very subtle town undertone and his actions make it unlikely for him to be scum. Oats also does exactly what he accused Mocsta of being scum for. He highlights all of the lurkiest players before voting on Bringaniga. Except he doesn't mention anything about them other than that they are lurking. No other insight at all. He starts to go after lurkers with very basic questions that don't probe too deep, accusing Mandalor after he finally becomes active by saying "Manadalor, what makes you different from laguerta and Trotske? As far as I can see you have been about as active as them" The largest difference between Mandalor and them is that he has shared his thoughts and explained exactly why he was not active up to this point. Oats realizes his lynch on Bringaniga is no longer sticking, I've raised my own concerns about him and start to draw attention to players that would vote for him, most people agree he seems town and will not vote for him depending on how he acts for the rest of D1. Oats again switching his targets realizing Bringaniga is no longer a viable option. + Show Spoiler + On January 14 2013 08:21 Oatsmaster wrote: Mandalor, what changed from earlier? You were not even close to active this time of the day yesterday. So, basically apart from trolling, you want to lynch a lurker which gives us 0 information. Umm you want to lynch a lurker too, laguerta.. ##Unvote ##Vote: Mandalor You too [spolier] ##Unvote ##Vote: laguerta Explain your vote. Now. [/spoiler] Mandalor has made a few mistakes, explaining his top scum reads as "easy" lynches. but it is true that he always stuck with Laguerta as one of his top reads. Oats uses this regardless to jump to Mandalor, using his position as a lurker for the first half of D1 and poor explanation of his vote as reasons. Again Oats does not wait for the play accused to defend himself first, he votes and then waits for the defense AND gauges the response from everybody else to see if a wagon will form on the target. Zebezt makes some comments against Sn0_man and Oats So far I don't have a scum read on Zebezt, I am leaning slightly towards town. He's already said this is his first game, and I'm quite pleased with the little amount he has brought to the table. Oats attacks him for sheeping Mocsta and for Zebezt pressuring him which is exactly what town is supposed to do, take people they think are suspicious and try to apply pressure. Again Oats becomes overly defensive and lashes out at him. Soft claims he's scum by saying "mafia QT must be taking about it" in regards to Kush being found to be Bringaniga. I know Oats has obs/played many games. The fact that he claims he didn't know what would happen to Bringaniga is unbelievable to me. I believe this is his attempt to soft claim town and I'm not buying it. I believe he is setting up another target (Zebezt) on the off chance Mandalor doesn't work out. We then have On January 14 2013 08:33 Oatsmaster wrote: Mocsta, If I wrote the post Acid wrote, what would you do? A useless post with no point. Mocsta attacked Acid for his post already. Soon after, the Mandalor wagon that looked like it was taking off gets stopped. Nobody else is joining it and other players are starting to look much scummier, players are discussing the lurkers and how suspicious Laguerta is. + Show Spoiler + On January 14 2013 10:10 Oatsmaster wrote: I dont think lynching Mocsta is a good idea today. ##Unvote ##Vote: laguerta Mandalor, you get a pass today but you better start scumhunting. Since that you dont need to defend yourself anymore. The fourth vote during D1. It's starting to look like he doesn't care who gets lynched. He votes for Laguerta because of his no-lynch (I assume, it's never really stated). On January 14 2013 11:49 Oatsmaster wrote: I really dont know who to vote for....... laguerta is scummy, but I really dont feel confident in lynching him... He isnt here to defend himself, so... Also from past experience, scum has always been around at the deadline so... He begins to back track on Laguerta as I have shown my unwillingness nearly the entire time up to the point where I finally cave when I realize Laguerta has lied about his no-lynch policy. With so little information I find this very incriminating and convince Mocsta on board with it as well. Oats claims scum is always around at the deadline from his past experience. Is this past experience in his game as scum? I've played three games so far and its fairly random if scum will be there during the lynch or not. I've had 1 there in both games, two not there in my 1st game and 1 never there in my 2nd. I think this might be a scum slip, although Zare made a joke about it and its faulty logic, I believe it was a subconscious slip. He then follows up with On January 14 2013 12:43 Oatsmaster wrote: Glurio, do you think that laguerta is scum? @Mocsta, I dont think its really scummy in itself, we are nearing lynch and people will start to show up. What?! You just said... scum is always around near the lynch... Do you know their alignment or something? You can pick which players who are around at the time of the lynch are scummy or not? It doesn't make sense. There are so many contradictions. On January 14 2013 12:54 Oatsmaster wrote: 7 minutes to vote, If you guys think that laguerta is scum, by all means, vote for him. If you cannot justify scum behaviour in his posting, vote for someone else, preferably zebezt cause he is scum. This post is another one that bothers me, You just finished saying Laguerta is not scum, you just finished saying if you have a scum read PUSH for them hard. Saying "go ahead and vote for Laguerta but I KNOW Zebezt is scum" makes no sense! You don't care who gets lynched. You softly imply you know Zebezt's alignment again... this is the third time you've done this. + Show Spoiler + On January 14 2013 12:58 Oatsmaster wrote: Constant vote jumping? Voting 3 players in a 15 hour span is called constant vote jumping. Right. I am reasonably sure because Zebezt has scum motivation for posting how he does. I voted laguerta cause lying is bad, but upon reading his filter, I feel that he is newbie town/null. Why does it matter how many people you voted for in a 15 hour time span? It matters how many people you have voted for over all... I don't care if you've only voted for 3 people in 15 hours. You have voted for 5 players during D1. Without a good reason on any of them. Without explaining why you were suddenly switching. I looked over the votes and who they were on for nearly the entire last 20 minutes and noticed that 4 of your 5 votes were on the "easiest" targets. Players who all had the potential to be lynched if people started to make cases on them. Most people voted for at least two of them. You hit all of them. This is not town oriented play. This is scum looking to hide in the crowd. Warning: Confirmation bias / Association case. + Show Spoiler + This is where I started to lose my mind so close to the deadline and noticed something I wish I hadn't. It is the sole reason I hadn't been able to get my case out on time. Oats defends Sn0, Sn0 and Oats attacked mocsta, Zebezt voted for Sn0, Oats finds Zebezt scummy for reasons that he is active but not contributing a whole lot. Plus he set his vote to lynch Zebezt up earlier when Zebezt made a comment about Sn0 being the scummiest player. Oats asks Sn0 a REALLY odd question with + Show Spoiler + On January 14 2013 12:38 Oatsmaster wrote: Mocsta, you are confirmation biased. I dont think Sno is scummy for attacking you, it created conversation which was a good thing and I had similar concerns as him. How stupid is it as scum to vote you? Sno-man, why are you voting Mocsta? Is it because you dont like him? Or because he is scum? Does this indicate Oats believes Mocsta is still scum? Is he leading Sn0 to be able to leave that option open to him? + Show Spoiler + I HIT BACK INSTEAD OF ENTER AND ALMOST DELETED THIS WHOLE THING HOLY SHIT. Also I'm aware that my last paragraph is confirmation biased to hell, an association case, and just all around things you NEVER want to do... but I saw it and I can not unsee  | ||
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OmniEulogy
Canada6590 Posts
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OmniEulogy
Canada6590 Posts
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thrawn2112
United States6918 Posts
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Sn0_Man
Tebellong44238 Posts
This post is going to to a real review of what actually happened with respect to laguerta *not* getting lynched. We'll start at Noon, January 14th (Forum time). Laguerta has 7 votes: Mandalor, Omni, Glurio, Shz, Oats, Moc and Zare. Not long before this (okay an hour and a half but very few posts), Trotske posted this: On January 14 2013 10:36 Trotske wrote: I don't think laguerta is scum you guys are pushing a lynch claiming scum when he looks a lot more like a bad townie with no experience and is lazy. what is with this bandwagon on someone who might as well be a lurker In fact a lurker would be a better lynch. I am going to keep my vote on the person who started this ridiculous vote. At 12:02, Oats unvotes laguerta after reading his filter, stating "I dont see scum doing this, I really dont." At 12:30, Omni unvotes laguerta due to "not enough of a fight from mafia..." At 12:32, zare unvotes laguerta agreeing how easy it has been to vote him. At 12:54, glurio unvotes laguerta agreeing about mafia's lack of defense. At 12:59, Mocsta unvotes laguerta agreeing with all the above. This is a fascinating snowball. Oats' unvote was due to "reading his filter" and while it isn't that well explained, is semi-reasonable. Omni unvotes strictly on the strength of mafia not backing up laguerta, which just isn't right. And so does zare. Any half-decent mafia WILL bus their teammates if they are as clearly awful as laguerta is. I’m not trying to claim that Omni or Zare are scum-oriented for doing this, I’m just saying their reasoning is flawed. Glurio immediately hops on the bandwagon of unvoting laguerta, and in the process also joins the lynch-mandalor (who turns out town) bandwagon. Trotske is, at the time, the only person with a vote on Mandalor. Last but not least, for no discernable reason Mocsta feels the need to swap over to Mandalor as well, sealing the deal (by a silly 3-2 vote o.O). That part is OK because I have come to expect an incredible amount of posts coupled with a complete inability to identify scum from Mocsta. Which sucks because it makes it hard to determine whether he is actively trying to be unhelpful or not. Right now I’m leaning towards just a clueless townie, since it seems like his heart is more or less in the right place right now. So, back on topic. Trotske’s filter is incredibly defensive of laguerta, and includes the hilariously awful post that I put up top. His first defense of laguerta is that he is a bad, lazy townie with no experience. Then the good part: [b] what is with this bandwagon on someone who might as well be a lurker In fact a lurker would be a better lynch. I am going to keep my vote on the person who started this ridiculous vote[b] This is the scummiest thing I’ve seen posted all thread. He calls laguerta a lurker, then asks to lynch a different lurker. Then he calls the vote ridiculous after many others have given perfectly fine reasons for laguerta to be scum. Then he says that he is keeping his vote on the person who “started the vote (Mandalor, who at this point HAD NO OTHER VOTES). So my takeaways are: A) Laguerta really should have been lynched. B) He was, in fact, defended by the mafia: Trotske C) Trotske is my lead scum read. Oh yeah, the other thing is that if Trotske/zbezt/laguerta are in fact the scum team, which is my hunch ATM, then it actually looked like they were planning a bandwagon on me that never got started. Please understand that this isn’t an OMGUS, I’m merely looking at who defended Laguerta. Laguerta himself is clearly horridly incompetent and at least partially AFK so he wasn’t on that particular train. Zbezt ended up on me because he went to bed 6 hours before the voting deadline so wasn’t there to help out his buddy Trotske swap over to what was becoming an increasingly easy target: Mandalor. Obviously this is pretty thin but this is my current list of suspicions/scumreads and my evaluation of the voting that got innocent mandalor lynched. I’ll be more active through the week, but expect another fairly serious dropoff every weekend. Hopefully less bad than this one  | ||
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Sn0_Man
Tebellong44238 Posts
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Spaghetticus
Australia451 Posts
(1) - The most pertinent factor to our current position is that there are SO MANY LURKERS. I have never seen a game this infested with them. A 50% split of lurkers is absolutely pathetic, and you town lurkers (see how there are so many lurkers I can deduce that at least half of them are town) should be ashamed. Your non-involvement in the game is costing the active town by introducing variables that compound their uncertainty. You are a burden and you are losing the game for town. Any activity at all is better than no activity, at least give the other town the opportunity to read and subsequently ignore you before lurking into a coma. (2) - Who is mayor and should there even be one? Mocsta is usually Mayor, and I am delighted to actually see other people stand up to him in this respect. I don't like there being a mayor that is not me, and even then I don't like people that just let me traipse up and take the crown. Mayor is a role that should be reserved for actually confirmed town, otherwise their power as an organising force is significantly depleted by the doubt in the minds of their townie followers. They are also subject to the pitfalls of being human, the same as the rest of us. I've seen more than enough chest-beating to make me think I should keep both Oats and Mocsta on the lynch-later list. If they both continue to contribute at this rate they will burn out and slip if they are scum. I will actively defend both of these people from a lynch day two. (3) - OmniEulogy is confirmed town. He has changed his meta from scummy to actual pro-town. This is a read from a more complex dialogue outside of the game, but put simply: - he has played deliberately scummy in previous games in order to give himself room to work with when he actually rolls scum - I warned him that while I have been avoiding him in game I had decided to tunnel him as I could no longer take the bullshit, along as communicating several reasons for why a better player would play to the best of their ability every game - He improved his style when he did not need to. I was not in the game to tunnel him, and if he rolled scum he would have had three games worth of established scummy play to work with, all but guaranteeing him a scum victory if he rolled scum. If he rolled scum he would be under zero pressure to change his style and we would be looking at a clusterfuck of WIFOM and OMGUS instead of the rational play he is demonstrating. (4) - The lynch was pure chaos. I am yet to go through the exact process of it, and it is unlikely I'll do it tonight (it's 4:00am here), but a lot of emphasis has been put on the part where Oats yells at Mocsta, and Mocsta changes his vote last minute. I don't get a scum-read off either, but this was part of the stuff I skimmed. Mocsta has been known to change his vote last minute in his town games, but has never really justified this action properly. We all need to comb both the events surrounding the lynch, and the upcoming night actions accordingly. (5) - This point is related to some of the others. The active members have been showing cannibal tendencies, and while every one is laughing and brushing the dust off, these things often resurface. Out of the active players, there is likely only one mafia at most, the other two are among the lurkers. Scum will NK one active member per night, if you add to this mislynched active players you are looking at LURKERS vs SCUM for end-game. I don't need to tell you that this will end badly. We need to LAL, and LAL hard. I have no problem keeping the pressure on active members getting them to justify their continued existence, but when it comes to vote time you need to preserve the people that are actually generating discussion. Swallow your hatred and look to the scummiest lurker. (6) - Laguerta. I've already dismantled one reasoning used by Omni and Zare as to why he has to be town. This should put him back to a NULL read. Everyone needs to understand his lie and make their own decisions as to whether it was scummy. I personally find it to be a mildly-scummy read due to a scum in a previous game wanting a no-lynch on day one. The lie does not really affect my read on him, as it's a mistake regardless of whether he is town or scum. On top of his complete lack of contribution, this makes him a strong candidate for a day two lynch in my eyes. I am going to bed, I will likely arise in 8 hours at 12noon, and then have 6 hours before I need to go to badminton which will last until approximately 11:00pm my time. If people have questions for me please bald my name at the top. I don't see the need (/don't have the motive) to write a will like Mocsta's, as it is unlikely I will be killed by scum. I do appreciate his efforts though. I hope you took the time to read my points as I believe there to be at least one of great importance. I look forward to your questions when I wake up. Goodnight. | ||
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