EPTJust seeing a +8 or -1 doesn't tell us anything about what you actually feel about those or the thought process you have behind those 2 "gut feelings"
/G
[T] MTG Mini Mafia II - Page 74
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(DontFear)ThePoster
Guernsey584 Posts
Just seeing a +8 or -1 doesn't tell us anything about what you actually feel about those or the thought process you have behind those 2 "gut feelings" /G | ||
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iGrok
United States5142 Posts
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(DontFear)ThePoster
Guernsey584 Posts
Yet on another one you put "Can you please post an opinion once?" +1 Why is exactly the 1st one +7 and the other one +1 ? Why is that contradiction scummier times 7, instead of maybe a change of mind or townie mistake, while not contributing nor scumhunting like in the 2nd one is just +1 ? Etc for the rest of the posts basically, or his play in general /G | ||
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Aperture Science
United States151 Posts
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Clockwork Hydra
Uzbekistan442 Posts
 Gonzaw got my point pretty much. I also work with points on my scumometer and townometer. However, on mine you can either score a point for a post, an overall stance or anything I feel at the time is scummy, respectively townie. Generally, those points are only really used as a summary for when I need a quick opinion and don't mean jack shit to anybody (not even me when I go through stuff in detail). I am therefore rather interested in HOW you quantify scummy shit. Please explain to me how X is worth 8 points, Y is worth -1 and Z is worth 3. Specifically I am interested in how the overall summary means anything at all. If I were to post my current scum and townometer of Suck, it'd have more scumpoints. However, I have revised my earlier thoughts and think there's a decent chance they're town. That's because shit like scum points for early posts are "worth less" when I end up evaluating them now. As you say, it's all subjective and thus you posting the analysis kinda means nothing. The format makes it particularly hard to make sense of whether you are focusing on bullshit reasons that are not indicative of alignment or points that I think might be. Anyway, my scumhunting seems to be completely different from yours overall, because I tend to be more interested in reactions to pressure and overall motivation than PBPA, unless PBPA brings me something fantastic. If I don't make sense, blame beer. /Acro | ||
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RockHydra
Pitcairn222 Posts
Seems it wasn't a very busy night. I agree on the analysis by aperture. This way is fairly subjective and it doesn't really show the bigger picture. Personally posts that are in the range -2 to 2 I dont wanna hear about. I was surprise though, that Well crossfire is my number one read but he's been discussed to death. I'll have a post explaining my next best read when I get a few minutes of downtime at work. In the meantime I'll contribute to discussions however I can. I will say I feel a bit better about AS now that he's a bit more into it. Right now I don't think Nova is scum so if X turns out to be town I'd bet on a double hydra team. scored 4 / 3 scum points. If he wouldnt say "he's been discussed to death" you'd just accuse him of sheeping and give him even more points What you should bash him for is saying he'll write about his next best read, but as far as I can see he never does. He writes a little about RH, but this is because he is asked specifically about RH by DFTP. What he writes doesn't really indicate that RH is his second biggest scumread. When Aperture says he will write but he doesn't people freak out. But Stutters gets a free pass? Aperture actually tried with the PBPA, but stutters showed nothing. /zebezt | ||
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(DontFear)ThePoster
Guernsey584 Posts
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Hopeless1der
United States5836 Posts
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Clockwork Hydra
Uzbekistan442 Posts
On February 02 2013 23:04 Hopeless1der wrote: I am totally okay with you doing something too. Who is Xfire's partner in crime and why? /Acro | ||
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RockHydra
Pitcairn222 Posts
On February 02 2013 23:39 Clockwork Hydra wrote: I am totally okay with you doing something too. Who is Xfire's partner in crime and why? /Acro Well by elimination really, I have CH, SMTP, DFTP and duh, myself as town, so that leaves Stutters, Nova and AS. Of those three, I'm most inclined to see stutters as scum. As zeb pointed out, and both GreY and iGrok pointed out in his analysis, the flip-flop on my "entrance post" regarding the 0/X creatures is the epitome of a Lynch-all-liars policy and has obvious scum connotations (forgot what lies he told) with no clear town motivation behind the how or why that read changed. In addition, saying he'll put together reads and then not doing so, (which marv says is right up his meta-alley,) is still freaking scummy. As far as associative cases, the "xfire has been discussed to death" is a good way to sheep without saying a goddamned thing. AS is difficult to read as noted due to his scumhunting methods being "mechanical". While I think stutters is scummier, I am generally fearful of the power of AS's deck, so I'm comfortable sheeping an attack on him if people still feel he's the top candidate. Gonzaw's case is still quite good, but the assumption that random discards fucked up his play and that work is hectic kind of makes me want to stay my hand. I guess that leaves me null of Nova? He hasn't given a whole lot to the thread (though he has a pretty good excuse for that), and I'd expect scum to be kind of forced to bus xfire. However, in his response to the case on AS: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=17688758 he basically ends off with "kill xfire", AS needs more discussion. At the time I don't think xfires fate was sealed by any means, as scum he could have had the opportunity to sheep gonzaw's case, so I consider this to lean him towards a townread. ~Hopeless | ||
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RockHydra
Pitcairn222 Posts
Oh I forgot Bin in there. Also town, I'm running on the assumption that mafia actually want him dead. ~Hopeless | ||
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Clockwork Hydra
Uzbekistan442 Posts
+ Show Spoiler [preamble] + Here is my take on the matter. We have established that your deck runs Storm, and probably a rather large amount of red mana acceleration in order to set off some unknown combo. Presumably your combo is capable of either outright killing everybody, or at least killing a number of people, otherwise your deck is useless and neither of you seem like the type of player to make a useless deck. All combo decks tend to have 1 thing in common: they play a large amount of library manipulation stuff, either in the form of extra draw or in the form of tutors (handily calling Intuition and its clones tutors here) and usually both. Minds Aglow sounds like the bees fucking knees for a combo deck. So why is Minds Aglow bad for scum iGrok? Because card advantage. According to iGrok's own words, his deck has a slow mana base and will supposedly take a long time before it can go off. In that time, town can use the massive card advantage gained from Minds Aglow to ramp up their own decks. A scum iGrok is thus best served by town being stalled as much as possible. In the meantime, the scum beast can take out serious threats, while he gets the main combo pieces online through other means than Minds Aglow. So, with the preamble out of the way where we establish that Minds Aglow is good for you, we go to your actions in the game: On January 29 2013 10:07 Aperture Science wrote: So, Mind's Aglow looks completely useless. Awesome. Scumhunting is in Flavor. Magic Discussion is not. Except, iGrok is apparently a rather fervent MTG player and knows the value of shit like card advantage and should immediately recognize how with 7 townies and 2 scummers, Minds Aglow leads to insane card advantage for town. It also cannot be explained as being bad from his own deck's perspective (see preamble). So... iGrok, why did you say Minds Aglow looks completely useless, when, it quite obviously isn't? 2 posts later, he has a new reason for why Minds Aglow is bad. Note, it is not useless now, it is now scary: On January 29 2013 10:12 Aperture Science wrote: I'd be scumhunting. I don't want to draw 1/3 of my deck T1. Anyone running Mill is going to have a field day with the rest of us. (I'm not claiming MILLER - haha, get it?) This is elaborated on a bit later (skipping the first elaboration, because the second one is a direct answer to my doubts about it at the time): + Show Spoiler [explanation 1] + On January 29 2013 10:41 Aperture Science wrote: I'm not being negative, I'm pointing out rather basic fatal flaws in people's thinking. There's some new players here, not everyone played Coldsnap. You're just wrong. There's a deck that could entirely mill out 2, maybe 3 players T2 or 3 if we each draw 18 cards. Brain Freeze + Mana-Instants/Phyrexian Mana cards. You all put down 10 lands turn 2, play 5 spells each, and he mills 200 cards. which kills 7 players. You want to do that? End the game on turn 2? I thought about playing it but I'd rather play mine because its more fun, hence my whole "lets play fun decks" campaign. Read what I said above. But even if you go ahead and do cast voyage. Who the hell is running 10 BASIC lands when they can pull from ALL the Duals, Shocks, Fetches, Filters, Taps, and Checks? You realize its BASIC LANDS ONLY right? (That last part isn't for you, its for everyone else). You assuming you've got MTG figured out rubs me the wrong way. But that doesn't mean I think you're scum. Odds are you're town, you just didn't think it through. You've gotta realize that in a game of no counters and where everyone shares a turn, busting out 10 lands for everyone is just asking for a storm deck to kill us all. + Show Spoiler [explanation 2] + On January 30 2013 00:43 Aperture Science wrote: What I'm advocating (before anyone says "waaah all you ever do is tell us not to play things") is not to play things that could help scum. Lets see what we already know: Someone can have 10+ Zombies out T1 if you play Mind's Aglow, and can swing with them T2, killing someone. At least one person is running Fatties. Honestly I'd be happier with Fatties than a dozen Zombies. @Zeb, Artanis might not have thought that someone would play mind's aglow for 10 T1. I know he's okay with being able to combo out one player by turn 2, which is what cheerio storm does - unless it draws a dozen extra cards, then it combos everyone. Note the entirely different mindsets between iGrok and us. iGrok knows he runs a storm combo himself, yet uses the idea of Storm's presence to try to scare people, without disclosing ANY information abut his deck. Now either drawing lots of cards is good for a Storm combo deck and we should be scared, in which case iGrok should be saying "if you give me lots of cards, I will be able to combo and go off sooner", OR drawing cards is not good for a Storm deck, in which case we have no reason to be scared. Instead iGrok fear mongers with the idea of Storm without ever saying that he himself will BE that nasty player who will combo us all to death. Now lets compare that to the two townies who know Minds Aglow will do awesome shit for them: Bin. Bin needs lots of basic lands and he knows that the best way of getting them into play fast is by casting a big Minds Aglow and then a big Collective Voyage. While he doesn't initially specify what he will do with all that land, it was to be expected that it'd result in something big and nasty (I was expecting fatties, but Drain Life works okay). CH: we know we're running ZI. We are frank and open with the fact that Minds Aglow will give us a giant boost and after a bit of deliberating disclose exactly how a Minds Aglow will make our deck big and scary. In both cases, all the information is laid out on the table, allowing the OTHER players to decide for themselves whether this is a good thing or a bad thing. iGrok, in contrast, deliberately withheld this information in favour of fearmongering. So, I have explained the scum motivation for this quite clearly. There are some things, however, in AS' playstyle that make me wonder. I really want AS to explain his behaviour. Both in response to Minds Aglow and in response to Poster's original case. /Acro + Show Spoiler [Dandel's blessing] + [13:55:26] Acro: poasted [14:01:56] Acro: am i making a big deal out of a tiny issue? [14:02:02] Acro: or does what i say make sense? [14:03:19] Dandel Ion TL Mafia: it's fine imo [14:03:24] Dandel Ion TL Mafia: good points and all [14:03:33] Dandel Ion TL Mafia: and i'd really like them to respond to it [14:03:41] Dandel Ion TL Mafia: so I give it my blessing | ||
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Aperture Science
United States151 Posts
4 Shocklands, Molten Primordial, 2 Legion Loyalist, Ogre Slumlord, Crypt Ghast, Simic Manipulator, Realmwright, 2 Gyre Sage, foil Skarrg Goliath, Blind Obedience, Angelic Skirmisher, Foundry Champion, Spark Trooper, Aurelia's Fury, Firemane Avenger, Boros Reckoner, Assemble the Legion, foil and non-foil Consuming Aberration, foil Nightveil Specter, Mind Grind, Mystic Genesis, Biovisionary, Prime Speaker Zegana, Biomass Mutation, Deathpact Angel, High Priest of Penance, Merciless Eviction, Alms Beast, Immortal Servitude, Treasury Thrull, foil and non-foil Signal the Clans, Rubblebelt Raiders, and Glaring Spotlight. :OOOOOO I won an 8-player EDH game where the prize was a Box of GTC. And I won it off of a Scrambleverse that gave me control of 5 commanders and basically everything useful on the field. I don't think I've ever been happier! Ok, I'm gonna go finish up my stutters analysis. ttys | ||
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Stutters695
2610 Posts
On February 03 2013 00:03 RockHydra wrote: Well by elimination really, I have CH, SMTP, DFTP and duh, myself as town, so that leaves Stutters, Nova and AS. Of those three, I'm most inclined to see stutters as scum. As zeb pointed out, and both GreY and iGrok pointed out in his analysis, the flip-flop on my "entrance post" regarding the 0/X creatures is the epitome of a Lynch-all-liars policy and has obvious scum connotations (forgot what lies he told) with no clear town motivation behind the how or why that read changed. In addition, saying he'll put together reads and then not doing so, (which marv says is right up his meta-alley,) is still freaking scummy. As far as associative cases, the "xfire has been discussed to death" is a good way to sheep without saying a goddamned thing. AS is difficult to read as noted due to his scumhunting methods being "mechanical". While I think stutters is scummier, I am generally fearful of the power of AS's deck, so I'm comfortable sheeping an attack on him if people still feel he's the top candidate. Gonzaw's case is still quite good, but the assumption that random discards fucked up his play and that work is hectic kind of makes me want to stay my hand. I guess that leaves me null of Nova? He hasn't given a whole lot to the thread (though he has a pretty good excuse for that), and I'd expect scum to be kind of forced to bus xfire. However, in his response to the case on AS: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=17688758 he basically ends off with "kill xfire", AS needs more discussion. At the time I don't think xfires fate was sealed by any means, as scum he could have had the opportunity to sheep gonzaw's case, so I consider this to lean him towards a townread. ~Hopeless Let me explain a couple things. First, the flip flop was two days apart. One thing you'll see if you've played with me before is that when I post I always am as transparent as I possibly can be. When I first read his intro they hadn't said much else and it.felt significantly scummier. After reading it again two days later in the context of everything they had said that his defense felt more town after seeing their lack of stances in between on anything else (not that they felt more town in general, just their intro). I'm not afraid of changing my opinions cause I have nothing to hide. Regarding the Xfire thing, he had been discussed, his play was scummy and his lack of any defense felt like it wasn't worth wasting my time typing a post considering I was busy and I could have used that time looking at other people. If you'll notice when Gonzaw asked for me to expand, I expanded, including original thoughts showing how blatantly not like his town meta he was playing. If you consider that sheeping I don't know what to tell you. | ||
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Aperture Science
United States151 Posts
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Aperture Science
United States151 Posts
Conclusions: Greater Suspicion of Scumminess. Factors: 1) Multiple Contradictions, often withing just a couple posts. 2x Class B 2) Soft defenses, particularly about Xfire. Class C 3) Deck Lies. There is no way that a Bears deck can't play with 5 mana. Just no way. Class B BBBC is pretty damning. This is my analysis, GreY's isn't quit finished but you can see most of it. | ||
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Aperture Science
United States151 Posts
He's flopped on Crossfire whenever he was getting heavy pressure without being confirmed scum, and he flopped on Rock when someone else made a case on him Stutters thought he could push. That smells bad. In addition, just read his filter. It just reads really off for some reason. | ||
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Clockwork Hydra
Uzbekistan442 Posts
On February 03 2013 01:57 Aperture Science wrote: Stutters already knows what I'm about to accuse him of, so his defense above should be completely ignored. Why are you telling us to ignore his defense? You afraid we might disagree with you? /Acro | ||
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Clockwork Hydra
Uzbekistan442 Posts
/Acro | ||
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Aperture Science
United States151 Posts
"Lazy, yes. Scum, I'm not so sure." "Until it got explained and we're back to zero contribution towards finding scummers." "it'd be what he would say if he was town or scum", " was a decent post that I agreed with a lot of", " it appears he's in it for himself and is hiding something", " I'm not so sure of how scummy that is", "dropping his mana on two creatures worries me", "This feels incredibly different. " So he says a bunch of null statements, and mixed in are "it appears he's in it for himself" and "dropping creatures worries me". When mixed in with all the nulls, that is such a soft poke it's like getting with with cooked spaghetti. | ||
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