Hero Mini Mafia - Page 49

debears

United States2516 Posts

December 12 2012 03:25 GMT

#961

On December 12 2012 12:21 thrawn2112 wrote:

"I would find it scummy" coming from a town player only makes sense when talking about a hypothetical scenario. But this isn't a hypothetical scenario. The only way it can be a hypothetical scenario is if you are hypothetically town, which of course means that you'd actually be scum. Telling me what actions boson needs to take in a hypothetical scenario in order for you to get a town read on him doesn't make any sense.

Huh? This is hurting my brain

thrawn2112

United States6918 Posts

December 12 2012 03:32 GMT

#962

On December 12 2012 12:25 debears wrote:

Show nested quote +

Huh? This is hurting my brain

it's like the difference between the questions:

because x, what are y?

if x, what would be y?

x = djodref is town and y = his reads

Djodref

France3332 Posts

December 12 2012 03:40 GMT

#963

On December 12 2012 12:21 thrawn2112 wrote:

Show nested quote +

The hypothetical scenario is the scenario where Z-Bo is chasing only me for the next days. In this hypothetical scenario, I would need to revise my current town read on him.

thrawn2112

United States6918 Posts

December 12 2012 03:45 GMT

#964

On December 12 2012 12:40 Djodref wrote:

Show nested quote +

The hypothetical scenario is the scenario where Z-Bo is chasing only me for the next days. In this hypothetical scenario, I would need to revise my current town read on him.

but see, why even divulge that information to the thread? "boson if you do x in the future I will change my read on you in this manner"

HiroPro

United States2624 Posts

December 12 2012 03:54 GMT

#965

Hapahauli will be replacing Munk-E.

Hapahauli

United States9305 Posts

December 12 2012 03:56 GMT

#966

Hi doods, happy to be here =)

+ Show Spoiler +

thrawn2112

United States6918 Posts

December 12 2012 03:56 GMT

#967

oh hi hapa

Hapahauli

United States9305 Posts

December 12 2012 03:57 GMT

#968

So I've been following the thread rather loosely. I did end up watching Palmar's video the other day, so that's about how caught up I am. Anything in particular I should be looking at?

thrawn2112

United States6918 Posts

December 12 2012 03:57 GMT

#969

ok nvm I take it back. I went through some of djo's town games and apparently he's just fond of using "I would" in place of stuff like "I do"

however it still doesn't make sense to give someone advice on how to manipulate their read on you

Hapahauli

United States9305 Posts

December 12 2012 04:01 GMT

#970

Regarding Djo

I'm not sure if anyone's brought it up, but I watched Palmar's video and was really surprised he skipped over one of his posts in his analysis:

On December 10 2012 16:28 Djodref wrote:
@ WBG

If I take your word for jay and assume that you are not scum yourself, I'd say that I don't have huge concerns about anyone at the beginning of this game. Why did you single out Palmar among all the people who didn't participate yet ?
What about Bluelight, Z-Bo, Munk-E, Vivax and Tunkeg ? All of them scum by elimination ?

The underlined bit is a very strange thing for a townie to say. Townies are a naturally suspicious folk, and a line of reasoning that assumes someone is not scum really goes against this mentality.

Of course I'm not going to judge him on one post, but if there's anyone I could call a scum-read right now, it would be Djo.

thrawn2112

United States6918 Posts

December 12 2012 04:07 GMT

#971

On December 12 2012 13:01 Hapahauli wrote:
Regarding Djo

I'm not sure if anyone's brought it up, but I watched Palmar's video and was really surprised he skipped over one of his posts in his analysis:

Show nested quote +

Did you read the context of the post? Wbg made a post defending jay then said he didn't find anyone else that scummy. Djo's response is a direct response to those sentiments.

Z-BosoN

Brazil2590 Posts

December 12 2012 04:08 GMT

#972

Well fuck you debears you lucky snot

DJo, I didn't spend all my time tunneling you, don't flatter yourself.
One of the reasons I actually went for tunkeg was because of his reaction (or lack thereof) to my case on you.

Now, I think vivax and bugs came off looking really really bad after the flip.

Vivax. Let us take a gander.

His mindset was 100% not inclined towards killing Adam. I mean, look at some of his posts:

States clear disinterest in lynching Adam:

On December 12 2012 01:51 Vivax wrote:
ffs I don't wanna get Adam lynched.

Let's get jay cmon, just cause he's out of attention doesn't mean he didn't act scumm.y

Shows some soft-suspicion towards Tunkeg:

On December 12 2012 02:37 Vivax wrote:
Wtf Tunkeg, can't you share your reads some earlier instead of going martyr-mode at this time.

Then he includes Adam, but as a last option:

On December 12 2012 06:23 Vivax wrote:
Either Bluelightz, Jay or Tunk.

The initial case against Adam was pretty bad, but his latest activity isn't exactly townie, since he's not been doing anything useful nor defending himself much. He's the last option for me.

Then suddenly, WAM BAM KAPLOW. Soft-suspicion on tunkeg yet again (???) and VOTE ADAM

On December 12 2012 06:40 Vivax wrote:

Show nested quote +

Dude, that's a really bad attitude. You have 1000 ways to strengthen your arguments other than to accept a mislynch just like that.
And even if everybody follows your arguments after that, which is as unlikely as it was before, you still might be super wrong about them, so it also shows you are pretty cocky about your opinion.
(Or maybe you're scum who has succeeded in fooling us all)

Anyway, 6 votes on Adam so far, count me in for the last 3. I like what grush had to say in this one.
Inbefore OMG HE'S BANDWAGONING.

##Unvote
##Vote Adam

Why the soft-suspicion on tunkeg? Why the change of heart? Let's see what happens between the last two posts I quoted. There is just this post from grush:

On December 12 2012 06:25 grush57 wrote:
That's pretty reasonable. I'm a bit cautious of Bluelightz because he is a vet. Jay strikes me as a foolish townie and Tunk is probably a noobie. I want to vote Adam because he is reminding me of his scum play.

And the post that he quoted from tunkeg, where he added some soft-suspicion yet again. There was no reason to change his mind from a townie perspective, especially with four hours left on the clock. Plenty of time to push his "alternatives". I think he must have assumed that he wouldn't be able to save Adam and decided to bus him.

wherebugsgo is also looking bad as shit.

He made this significant post:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=384953&currentpage=25#481

Which made perfect sense at the time (so much in fact that I decided to use part of it). What does it for me though is this. In the post I linked above, here's what he has to say about Adam:

There's one thing putting me off from Adam, and that's the fact that he pointed out thrawn's post from Acme regarding his view of millers claiming day 1. It's not as indicative of towniness as something obscure being pointed out in the defense of someone, but it is something to keep note of regardless. Otherwise, whatever. I'm going to ignore him for now since there are bigger fish to fry.

Here he shows slight suspicion, but, in his own words, there are bigger fish to fry. This shows reluctance and unwillingness to lynch Adam.

On this post: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=384953&currentpage=25#482
He says this:

I'd be fine with killing Munk-E as well today, and honestly between Tunkeg and Munk-E IMO we are almost certain to have scum. Any other lynches for now I'm not going to bother with, since there is nothing worse in the thread than what either of these players have posted.

Here he shows a fair amount of certainty that one of the two are scum. He does not include Adam.

His next post is also consistent with his mindset of not wanting to kill Adam. Here's what he says to thrawn:

On December 11 2012 14:53 wherebugsgo wrote:

Show nested quote +

what the fuck, tomorrow? who are you voting on today then, Adam?

I think he was convinced by the wave of people wanting to kill Adam. It happens to everyone, and it's often why I ignore people's posts before I make my own reads. (I've noticed this trend over a long period of games-if I follow my own reads I'm often closer to being correct than if I let other people influence me)

The tone in which he says "wave of people wanting to kill Adam" seems to me like that of undermining. Bugs does not agree with the wagon on Adam.
All of which I've shown so far indicate the mindset in which it is crystal clear he doesn't like an Adam lynch. This is a mindset that scum would have at the point in time in which bugs' post was made. Now note how this mindset is completely broken with this next post:

On December 11 2012 17:23 wherebugsgo wrote:

Show nested quote +

On December 11 2012 17:18 Tunkeg wrote:

On December 11 2012 16:59 wherebugsgo wrote:

On December 11 2012 16:06 Tunkeg wrote:
Lol WBG. In these games you are linking to, and others games like it, haven't you been the one complaining about me posting readposts like that? And also me posting "useless" questions?
And now you say the same play you labeled as bad and useless actually was scumhunting?

If you want me lynched for meta fine. But don't try to convince the thread you were a fan of my previos play.

just because I think something is dumb doesn't mean I think it's scummy.

I don't recall ever seriously calling you scum in those games. Not to mention, in AC I was scum. Nice fail response, scum.

On December 11 2012 16:00 VisceraEyes wrote:
I changed my mind. I think jaybrundage is scum.

On December 10 2012 10:29 jaybrundage wrote:

On December 10 2012 09:58 VisceraEyes wrote:
Whatever happened to people going "LOL" after a video like in the olden days?

VE gimme your thoughts on thrash

After his first post on thrawn in which he says he’s suspicious, he asks my opinion of the matter. I gave it, and that’s the last that was heard about it. Why did he want my input? He never referenced anything I said, or even acknowledged that I said it. I believe that he was just trying to get someone to agree with him regarding thrawn.

On December 10 2012 10:37 jaybrundage wrote:

On December 10 2012 10:33 thrawn2112 wrote:

On December 10 2012 10:28 Adam4167 wrote:

On December 10 2012 10:24 thrawn2112 wrote:

On December 10 2012 10:19 Adam4167 wrote:

On December 10 2012 09:57 thrawn2112 wrote:
any answer I could possibly give would just betray the actual purpose behind that post, making whatever I hoped to accomplish with that post no longer possible

I think you better try to explain what you were hoping to accomplish here.

On November 01 2012 08:25 thrawn2112 wrote:
If a miller claims D1 I don't even know what my thought process would be for deciding if I believe them or not, so I'm hesitatingly saying that I disagree with the idea

I find this post sits in a stark contrast to your current play, and this is from one of your recent town games (ACME).

What's the stark contrast? I don't see how these things are even related. Are you trying to suggest I'm scum? because you went about it pretty subtly.

Town you from ACME says that you disagree with the idea of millers claiming, and that you don't even know what your thought process would be for deciding if its real or not. Why are you trying to put everyone else in a similar position of confusion?

If I wanted to call you scum, I would have. What I want to know is why you are doing what you are doing.

That's not even the issue. How am I putting anyone in a compromising decision about whether or not to believe the claim when millers aren't even self aware? I don't understand what accusation you're trying to make, it makes no sense in the context of what the OP has to say about millers.

Dude... Its not whether we believe you. Your lying simple. Not a single persons believes your claim its about why are you lying. For no damn reason. And what purpose would town have to do that. It only makes sense from a mafia perspective

It really makes me uncomfortable when someone else speaks for me, and in this post jaybrundage is telling thrawn that I don’t believe his claim. I didn’t believe his claim, but because I thought his claim was a joke considering that the OP is explicit in the fact that millers are not self-aware. Therefor, I thought his claim was funny. But I certainly didn’t think he was LYING about his claim with any malicious intent. It doesn’t make sense for me to think that he thought that I would believe that claim based on what the OP says.

But jaybrundage is telling thrawn in no uncertain terms that I, VisceraEyes, think that he’s lying about his claim for no reason. And that’s not the case.

He then goes on to say that “...It only makes sense from a mafia perspective.” But that’s not true either is it? If thrawn is to be believed, he did it as a joke and to “spark discussion” and “ignite conversation” and such. Which, if he’s town, is a reasonable (if misguided) motivation.

On December 10 2012 11:03 jaybrundage wrote:

On December 10 2012 10:56 Djodref wrote:

On December 10 2012 10:44 debears wrote:

On December 10 2012 10:07 Djodref wrote:

On December 10 2012 10:01 debears wrote:

On December 10 2012 09:58 VisceraEyes wrote:
Whatever happened to people going "LOL" after a video like in the olden days?

Ikr

Anyways Djo the video was a response to the question, but a fun way of doing it

Have you not seen the Matrix? Did you not watch the video?

Yes, I guess you were saying that your vote was not real with the video. What was your motivation with your first vote on thrawn ?
What is your real take on thrawn fakeclaim ?

To get the voting rally started of course. Break the ice son

And it's strange. It would make no sense from a town perspective. His PM can't tell him he's a miller, because they aren't self aware.

So from

town - he was joking and he knew millers weren't self aware. Just did it for shits and giggles

scum - he claimed miller without checking first. I just don't see a scum being that reckless, but i'm sure if he's town he'll put in a productive day 1.

Or, he could've knew someone would interpret him as a joking townie if he's scum. and the wifomwifomwfiom

I'm the first to vote in the voting thread

So you see thrawn as a joking town or a reckless scum (less likely) or scum using WIFOM. Okay...
I personally can see a motivation for a town player to fakeclaim like this (serious motivation) that would make sense but I'm waiting for him to explain it first so I can check it matches my expectation or not.

At the exception of thrawn, do you have any comment to make on other players in this early game ?

Hey Djo can you do us all a favor and type in your vote here when you decide to vote for someone one in the voting thread. It would help out alot and i rather not have to check it till the end of the day.

The thing that I don’t like about this post isn’t even that it’s self defeating in the fact that Djo had, in fact, voted in the game thread...which shows that he’s not only not reading the thread, but is closely watching the voting thread...the opposite of what he’d have you believe in the post quoted above. It’s not that. Look at what Djo is saying. He’s saying he believes thrawn was joking too, and is asking someone about their thoughts on anyone else.

So he’s ignored my response regarding thrawn. Now he’s insidiously trying to discredit Djo (calling out his not-really-ninja vote in the voting thread) rather than respond to his post requesting discussion outside of thrawn. It all starts to stink like scum pushing an agenda to me. Especially considering, in spite of all of this...

On December 11 2012 04:43 jaybrundage wrote:

On December 11 2012 01:35 Clarity_nl wrote:

On December 11 2012 01:32 jaybrundage wrote:

On December 10 2012 23:52 Clarity_nl wrote:
Hey marv, you've explain why we shouldn't vote a bunch of people (thrawn, jay, palmar) but do you have any reasons we should vote a someone?

On December 10 2012 22:04 marvellosity wrote:
On jay, I'm ok on how he explained his 'slips'. My only worry with jay is that he comes across as overly... compliant?:

"Glad someone is reading my posts. I felt like i wasnt get any feedback from them."
"I do appreciate you giving your reasoning behind your claim. It helps me understand you a bit."

I don't particularly think much of it atm, was just weird when I was reading them. I would say it was indicative of the fact he didn't want to ruffle feathers, but he's not been afraid to put himself out there, so it isn't that.

His response reminds me of my own scum game. I showed no emotion that game, I just tried to remain logical and not to ruffle anyone's feathers, thinking that if I kept that up eventually people would stay away from me because I answered every question and reasoned away any doubt.

@ Jay

I read some of the stuff in your linked games, and yes you lyched town D1 but I never saw you say anything remotely close to "well I guess I should be more careful of early bandwagons". Not during any of the games and not in the pre-games or post-games either.

The thing is, you say you don't want to jump on an "easy bandwagon" this game, but you do. All you don't do is you haven't voted for thrawn, but he's the only person you've put pressure on. So why mention it? It's an easy way out.

It seems like common sense. If I get on easy bandwagons as town. Shouldn't i avoid em?

Im not you I don't find it necessary or needed to call people dumb or idiots like some players here do. It is it that unexpected to show some respect to people : /

I call people dumb or idiots?

So other than Thrawn, who is an easy bandwagon to you so should be avoided, who stands out as scummy?

I didnt mean you specifically but some people in TL mafia do. I actually am starting to lean more neutral on Thrawn. In my early mind set I just couldnt see someone misclaiming as a joke, or risk getting them selves lynched. Im a little worried about our lurkers.

And i would prefer to see more posts out of ZBoston. Specifically ZBoston what do you think about Claritys case on me and some people soft defending me.

Also MunkE has had like 3 posts since his /in and every single one of them is mostly about WBG statistic. Do we really have to nitpick over something like that. WBG was mostly trying to bait Palmar out. Lets hear your thoughts on some cases

On Vivax its odd. He seems really interested in going after Thrawns claim and saying that Ve defended it as a joke. When its not a joke. Even when thrawn said his self it was just a joke. That he stubbornly. Refused to explain to generate discussion. I think he is concentrating on thrawns little joke to much to the exclusion of everything else. I can see him being scum.

##Vote Vivax
(Because some people get SOOOOO antsy if you dont follow your argument with your vote.)

....HE TAKES IT ALL BACK ANYWAY! That's right, after the whole song and dance about being SOO FRUSTRATED with how he wasn't being paid attention to, and how his motivations only make sense from scum perspective, and in the face of people he has SPECIFICALLY asked their opinion of disagreeing with him, and EVERYTHING....he takes it all back anyway. Because thrawn said it was a joke and it was to generate discussion. Cool. Die.

##Unvote: Vivax
##Vote: jaybrundage

I'm going to go reread Vivax now and see if I still think he's scum. This changes things, because I had intended to spend this time writing a case on Vivax...but after reading the votecount and realizing that this jayb wagon was for real, I thought I'd check into him first. I'm glad I did, but now jaybrundage is voting for Vivax as well. We'll see what a reread brings.

This is a huge derail if I've ever seen one...

VE you have nothing to comment on Tunkeg or anyone other than jay?

On December 11 2012 16:24 jaybrundage wrote:
Hm so the "easy" bandwagon rolls. I finished watching palmars video ( YOU'RE video was educational to say the least) although YOUR in need of a better way to record video it got really pixely when you scrolled. ha ha suck my grammar.

In response to my badly thought out posts. I was trying to put pressure on thrawn to explain his reasoning. While my threats may not of been great I did eventually got thrawn to explain himself. Its odd people say that I was going back and forth with my view of thrawn. And honestly i didnt know what the hell he was. However i did think it was anti town. But enough of that. Tmw i will reread some of the cases and give my thoughts on which one i will support.

However if i do get lynched which seems likely i would ask people whats the next step when i flip town. But ill do my best to prevent that from happening.

I'm curious, did you capitalize "you're" and "your" to demonstrate how much you don't understand how to use the two? :p

+ Show Spoiler +

haha I just found that really funny for some reason

So you want me to do dumb things is that what you are saying. I know you treat this game like a schooldebate, where winning the arguement is more important than actually being right. And I know you like to twist and turn stuff to make your arguements look good. But that don't fly with me, stick to facts (like: Tunkeg is not playing exactly like he did in this and this game), don't try to strengthen your arguements with lies (Like you now saying you think I was scumhunting in those games, when you clearly stated how useless it was back then).

If you stick with what is true you should be able to lynch me if I were scum. If you start presenting lies and twisting words you might get me lynched even though I am town.

You WERE scumhunting in those games.

You were also doing stupid shit, but that has nothing to do with it. I'm not lying at all. However you've done nothing to prove that you are town this game. You just complain about my case and yet you still have no reads.

I've shown conclusively that on d1 as town you have concrete reads. This game you have none and you clearly have no intention of coming up with them any time soon. There is no evidence to suggest that you've simply decided to change your gameplay all of a sudden either, and your entire defense hinges on that point. If there is a recent game that suggests this, I am all open to read it. However, the fact that you complain in this manner is highly suggestive that you are scum.

To everyone else:

If you're not voting Tunkeg, Adam, or Munk-E today I want to hear why and I want to also convince you that you should move your vote. Preferably, to Tunkeg.

He suddenly casually includes Adam in his group of people to be lynched. Read above what I've posted on how this is NOT in agreement with the mindset he displayed earlier. This seems to me like scum casually throwing in a scumbuddy in their lists. There was no reason whatsoever for bugs to include that name in there, as he didn't mention a single post or give a single explanation of his inclusion of Adam as a suspicious dude. Nothing happened in between these two posts that, to me, could have possibly changed bugs' mind.

He spends a bunch of posts later furthering his cause on Tunkeg, pushing his lynch. He then proceeds to include Adam as a second top scumread in his next posts, again, without any sort of explanation.

Then suddenly:

On December 11 2012 22:38 wherebugsgo wrote:
I'm going to go and reread Adam's posts, since Palmar's reads make me uncertain that he is town. If he's not town then it's certainly possible Adam is just off his game for whatever reason.

He feels compelled to assess Adam's posts to check if Adam is scum. Note that this decision, the decision to include Adam as scum, came much much earlier than this other post. Why didn't bugs explain his sudden scum-read earlier??.

Also, from this same post, he says that he is going to go and reread Adam's posts. Needless to say, there is no conclusion made by himself regarding adam. He asks marv to convince him:

On December 11 2012 23:34 wherebugsgo wrote:
alright, I'm going to ignore Palmar since he somehow finds both myself and Jay scummier than Tunkeg. The fact that he thinks that makes his opinions irrelevant.

Marv-are you still willing to kill Tunkeg? Convince me why I should kill Adam over Tunkeg, and I'll consider switching my vote. Given that they're both even right now I see no reason to switch.

During consolidation, the most critical part of day one, bugs takes the day off and just doesn't post. Only comes back when his opinion doesn't make a difference. This is the easiest way there is for scum to not make any commitment. I mean, he had a fair case on Tunkeg right? Making the decision when a huge wagon on Adam (his scumbuddy) is at hand is pretty scary as scum. So yea, he took the day off and decided to post when it wouldn't have really made a difference:

On December 12 2012 09:42 wherebugsgo wrote:
Are we killing Adam? Tunkeg? What's going on?

I have a final in an hour so I've been cramming, apologies for not being around.

I don't really like smacking people for IRL stuff, but I dunno, seems pretty damn convenient, especially in the context in which he was at.

tl;dr
Bugs and vivax look really bad imo. I like my case on bugs the best. Please read it carefully and tell me what you guys think.
I will assess my town reads next.

Hapahauli

United States9305 Posts

December 12 2012 04:09 GMT

#973

Ah see this is why I should catch up before I pull the trigger.

Hapahauli

United States9305 Posts

December 12 2012 04:09 GMT

#974

Last bit was @ Thrawn of course, but you just had to go and snipe it all didn't ya Z-Bo?

Z-BosoN

Brazil2590 Posts

December 12 2012 04:12 GMT

#975

Show nested quote +

Hapa! Hello my friend. Let's have a friendly chat. What do you make of my assessment on wbg/vivax?

Z-BosoN

Brazil2590 Posts

December 12 2012 04:14 GMT

#976

On December 12 2012 13:09 Hapahauli wrote:
Last bit was @ Thrawn of course, but you just had to go and snipe it all didn't ya Z-Bo?

I doubt you will get sniped as much as me this game. You are replacing a rather scummy fellow, so I'm especially concerned with your views. Take your time, tis a lovely evening.

debears

United States2516 Posts

December 12 2012 04:21 GMT

#977

Hapa dapa doo

Hapahauli

United States9305 Posts

December 12 2012 04:22 GMT

#978

I'll try to catch up on the last 20 pages tonight. This is my sanity break from the contracts final I took yesterday, so I'm eager to forget everything from the semester I learned =O

Regarding your cases:

I rather like the vivax one. The quotes you laid out look like he's trying to jump on the bandwagon without looking bad. Also, voting someone because they liked something that grush said is... well... lol.

I'm less convinced by the one on WBG. Hesitancy to lynch someone =/= scum. I think it was one of the newbie games you were in (where a bunch of townies were hesitant to jump on kush's scumslip) that should give you my thoughts here. Bugs play so far seems to be a general hesitancy to lynch someone, then being afk for a while, then coming back and being lost. It's a bit alarming, but I don't think it's damning by any measure.

By contrast, vivax's mentality seems to be more "scummy" on his vote. He goes from a soft defense to being very sure and comfortable with his vote. That behavior IMO is more along the lines of scum-mentality.