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OK, here's the deal with the townies.
debears is pretty much obv town. No reasoning here.
Palmar is fairly town to me. I wouldn't say he's as obvious as debears, because he did throw suspicion on adam in his video. Since adam gave no good reason for him to feasibly change his views, he'd be forced to bus on day one. This is far-sighted, so for now let's stick with Palmar being town.
Thrawn. Townie fellow, no need to worry about him for now.
Tunkeg is most likely town. Much to my frustration, I feel I was wrong about him. I see no reason for him to go ahead and give away his scum-buddy (maybe two of them, if I'm right about bugs) in his death reads.
Clarity is also giving me some townie vibes. His openness about going for another scumread when he went after bluelight seemed modest to me. The scum explanation would be "omg omg I have to find another case that sticks so my scumbuddy with 5+ votes doesn't get lynched" , and I find that unlikely.
And uh, that's it I think. Next up is some of the players I haven't really given too much attention this game, mainly VE, BL and uh jay. I'll also have to reassess Djo. I was fairly confident he was scum day one, and opted to go for tunkeg, because a tunkeg-scum Djo-town theory made more sense. But now that I'm fairly sure that tunkeg is town, he suddenly looks juicy again.
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On December 12 2012 13:22 Hapahauli wrote:
I'll try to catch up on the last 20 pages tonight. This is my sanity break from the contracts final I took yesterday, so I'm eager to forget everything from the semester I learned =O
Regarding your cases:
I rather like the vivax one. The quotes you laid out look like he's trying to jump on the bandwagon without looking bad. Also, voting someone because they liked something that grush said is... well... lol.
I'm less convinced by the one on WBG. Hesitancy to lynch someone =/= scum. I think it was one of the newbie games you were in (where a bunch of townies were hesitant to jump on kush's scumslip) that should give you my thoughts here. Bugs play so far seems to be a general hesitancy to lynch someone, then being afk for a while, then coming back and being lost. It's a bit alarming, but I don't think it's damning by any measure.
By contrast, vivax's mentality seems to be more "scummy" on his vote. He goes from a soft defense to being very sure and comfortable with his vote. That behavior IMO is more along the lines of scum-mentality.
It's not just hesitancy to read someone. I feel you responded kinda fast and didn't really go over the case.
I'm more interested in the subtleness in which he included adam in his lists, which is in complete contrast with the mindset that he disliked adam as a lynch target earlier on, especially without any occurrences in the thread to suggest this weird change.
He also disappeared into a time that I presume would have been fairly risky for scum to participate in.
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debears. Admit I'm right on wbg/vivax. Admit it. Gogogo
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On December 12 2012 13:34 Z-BosoN wrote:Show nested quote +On December 12 2012 13:22 Hapahauli wrote:
I'll try to catch up on the last 20 pages tonight. This is my sanity break from the contracts final I took yesterday, so I'm eager to forget everything from the semester I learned =O
Regarding your cases:
I rather like the vivax one. The quotes you laid out look like he's trying to jump on the bandwagon without looking bad. Also, voting someone because they liked something that grush said is... well... lol.
I'm less convinced by the one on WBG. Hesitancy to lynch someone =/= scum. I think it was one of the newbie games you were in (where a bunch of townies were hesitant to jump on kush's scumslip) that should give you my thoughts here. Bugs play so far seems to be a general hesitancy to lynch someone, then being afk for a while, then coming back and being lost. It's a bit alarming, but I don't think it's damning by any measure.
By contrast, vivax's mentality seems to be more "scummy" on his vote. He goes from a soft defense to being very sure and comfortable with his vote. That behavior IMO is more along the lines of scum-mentality. It's not just hesitancy to read someone. I feel you responded kinda fast and didn't really go over the case. I'm more interested in the subtleness in which he included adam in his lists, which is in complete contrast with the mindset that he disliked adam as a lynch target earlier on, especially without any occurrences in the thread to suggest this weird change. He also disappeared into a time that I presume would have been fairly risky for scum to participate in.
It's rather hard in my position to understand such "subtlety" since I haven't been in the thread. I'll catch up, read his filter, and get back to you. My initial impressions are as previously stated though.
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On December 12 2012 13:43 Hapahauli wrote:Show nested quote +On December 12 2012 13:34 Z-BosoN wrote:On December 12 2012 13:22 Hapahauli wrote:
I'll try to catch up on the last 20 pages tonight. This is my sanity break from the contracts final I took yesterday, so I'm eager to forget everything from the semester I learned =O
Regarding your cases:
I rather like the vivax one. The quotes you laid out look like he's trying to jump on the bandwagon without looking bad. Also, voting someone because they liked something that grush said is... well... lol.
I'm less convinced by the one on WBG. Hesitancy to lynch someone =/= scum. I think it was one of the newbie games you were in (where a bunch of townies were hesitant to jump on kush's scumslip) that should give you my thoughts here. Bugs play so far seems to be a general hesitancy to lynch someone, then being afk for a while, then coming back and being lost. It's a bit alarming, but I don't think it's damning by any measure.
By contrast, vivax's mentality seems to be more "scummy" on his vote. He goes from a soft defense to being very sure and comfortable with his vote. That behavior IMO is more along the lines of scum-mentality. It's not just hesitancy to read someone. I feel you responded kinda fast and didn't really go over the case. I'm more interested in the subtleness in which he included adam in his lists, which is in complete contrast with the mindset that he disliked adam as a lynch target earlier on, especially without any occurrences in the thread to suggest this weird change. He also disappeared into a time that I presume would have been fairly risky for scum to participate in. It's rather hard in my position to understand such "subtlety" since I haven't been in the thread. I'll catch up, read his filter, and get back to you. My initial impressions are as previously stated though.
You do that. I'm sleepy as fuck and tired of reading so I'll f5 here until anyone wants to join me and have a friendly fireside chat.
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Ze Case on Djodref
So from the begginging Djo hasn't done much. He gave some filler posts about thrawn. Soft defended adam the entire game.
Sheeped on me. Then Sheeped on Tunkeg. Tried to get a policy lynch on grush (joking always has a bit of truth to it)
He attempted to explain his thought process with thrawn. He then started defending himself from Z-Bo. While still not wanting to lynch Adam wouldn't wanna kill his scum buddy.
On December 12 2012 01:21 Djodref wrote:Show nested quote +On December 12 2012 01:02 Z-BosoN wrote:On December 12 2012 00:51 Djodref wrote:@ Z-Boson+ Show Spoiler [for reference] +On December 12 2012 00:28 Z-BosoN wrote:Show nested quote +On December 11 2012 10:44 Djodref wrote:@ Z-Boson1) First of all, you're wrong and you have failed to show what goal my actions would serve if I was scum. I'm going to help you to read my posts because you obviously didn't understand where I was going during the early game. On December 10 2012 09:37 Djodref wrote:On December 10 2012 09:22 debears wrote:
##Vote thrawn
I reject your reality and substitute my own Hello everybody ! @thrawn Did you seriously not read that millers are not self aware ? @debears Are you seriously willing to enforce a "Lynch all Liars" policy ? My first reaction to thrawn post was "yeah, obvious scum" then I thought that he might not have been serious at all. A one liner for a miller claim doesn't look real, regardless of his alignment. The way he answered "nvm, then" shows that he is carefree about it. Debears, you are jumpy as both alignments, but I wouldn't expect your town self to post a video instead of engaging the discussion to get this game rolling. FoS debears 2)My problem with debears early vote was not that it was a vote following a LAL policy but rather the seriousness of this vote. I've assumed that it was a vote for sparking discussion because this was the early game and the atmosphere was quite carefree at this time. Nevertheless, thrawn calling out debears on his vote against him would have been a good starting point for a real discussion but debears chose to post a video instead of this. The problem was not the video itself, but more what he did not do instead. Anyway, this was an early FoS, and also an attempt for me to spark some discussion.And when debears implied that his vote was not serious (which I knew because he didn't use the voting thread to vote thrawn), I wondered why debears would throw early mindless votes like this, and I wanted him to explain this as well. All in all, I think that he didn't really care about what he was doing, and I don't read anything of it. I don't like how debears is focused on Adam so I didn't remove my Fos on him so far. 3)Regarding thrawn, I wanted him to explain his move. I didn't see this coming from a mafia player, but still, I wanted him to explain his motivations for it. And then thrawn goes like On December 10 2012 09:57 thrawn2112 wrote:
any answer I could possibly give would just betray the actual purpose behind that post, making whatever I hoped to accomplish with that post no longer possible and then On December 10 2012 10:29 thrawn2112 wrote:All the people in the past, present, and future who ask why I lied about being miller..... can go and read this post. If they don't like it then they can just continue reading it because that's all I've got to say about it. which was pretty stubborn and stupid. I used a pressure vote (which didn't work) to get him talk, regardless of his alignment. And he deserved this pressure vote. When I unvoted him, I was expecting him to explain himself as putting himself in a position where he is going to get some pressure, especially mafia pressure. So, yeah, it matches its town mindset. And then, Clarity came in this thread with a case worth sheeping, so I sheeped. At the light of Clarity case, jay was more likely to be scum than debears. But now, as many people started to participate overnight, I'm going to update my reads. 1) Yes I have. I mentioned "scum getting lost in the sidetracks", because that's what's going on. You are trying to make it seem like you are contributing, when in fact, you are not. More on that later. 2) I don't buy this. You assumed that it was a vote intended to spark discussion, because it was in early game and had a "carefree" atmosphere, made by debears. You then pressure FOS debears to make sure he sparks discussion as his townie self. Then, he goes after adam, and you keep the FOS because you disagree with his case?? You can disagree with his case, just like you did somewhere, but that is only warranted of your suspicions is if you think it's fake comes from scum. Yet what do you do? You go on to drop debears entirely and go around asking questions about other aspects of the game without taking a proper stance yourself. 3) This still doesn't make sense. Why in gods name are you so interested in thrawn explaining himself, if you think he's town??. Why did you pressure vote him, whom you had a town read on, instead of going after debears, someone you've made quite clear you don't like the play this game?
Also, to those who aren't feeling Djo, notice his complete lack of scumhunting in this game. Here's a summary of his entire play this game: - The whole debars/thrawn extravaganza I've already gone over which makes no sense.
- Probing WBG's weird logic on palmar.
- Giving munk-E a questionable town read
- Flock of non-conclusive questioning and a ton of fluff.
And that's IT. Zero stances, zero cases. It's scum feigning contribution. 1)So, basically, you are saying that I couldn't keep my story straight. And that shows that I'm scum. I would say that I've been inconsistent as townies can be inconsistent. Basically, my FoS on debears was not a very serious one (like all early FoS are) and I didn't feel like I had to follow it up when thrawn put himself at the center of the attention. 2) I was disagreeing with debears view on Adam and I still disagree with it because I think he is exaggerating some points. But debears has done nothing to deserve a vote. So I don't see why I should have not the right to use my vote on thrawn to pressure him. And yeah, I was leaning town on thrawn when I voted him but I needed his explanations for his miller claim to assess my read on him. 3)Putting pressure on thrawn was fulfilling two goals. The first one was to help me to assess my town read on him when he was going to reveal us his "plan". It was kind of obvious he was going to say something like this but I was interested to know how he was going to present things, and he did say almost exactly what I expected. The second goal was to show him that he was putting himself in a bad situation and that he should better explain himself asap so that the thread could move on to another subject because all this situation was a bit stupid and not helping us to have constructive discussions. 1) Scummies are more likely to be inconsistent than townies, so it's a small tell, but still a tell. What bugs me is the logic you had regarding debars/thrawn I've already went over.
2) Wait a minute. Bolded part. Whatever happened to: On December 11 2012 13:01 Djodref wrote:
I've watched Palmar's video and I've changed my mind a little bit about your interactions with Adam. As a result, I would lean town on you and slightly scum on Adam but I'm not yet sold on him being scum.
The latest "scumslip" is not a scumslip in my opinion because it would have been one if he was totally sure that you were scum, which doesn't look to be the case.
The fact that he dropped you is reasonable but it's not very indicative of his alignment because it was the best thing to do as scum and as town. I'm waiting to see where he is going to go with Vivax but I think that jay is more likely to be scum than him at this point.
Still not keeping your story straight. You say you lean him being town, now you lean him being scum. Worst of all, where is the reasoning, where is the justification for this??
3) It's counter-productive. You are wasting time reassessing a "town-read" you had, and you STILL are flimsy and not moving on: On December 11 2012 13:12 Djodref wrote:On December 11 2012 12:54 thrawn2112 wrote:debears could you respond to the question I asked you at the bottom of page 22? It's in the last post on the page sorta near the bottom of my post. Djo: bleh I've probably waited too long to ask this, but I'd like you to go back to this post. When did you write it in relation to the post you made right before it? Was it one right after the other, did you make them simultaneously, did you write the 2nd one first but post the 1st one 1st, etc. please be as specific as possible @ thrawnThe two posts you are talking about were independent if you are talking about these. On December 10 2012 15:31 Djodref wrote:On December 10 2012 14:52 debears wrote:On December 10 2012 14:46 Djodref wrote:
@ debears
So, between Adam and Jay, which one of them should deserve your vote right now ?
Because it looks like to me that the main reason for you to vote Adam is that he asked for your vote and voted against you.
I think Clarity made good points against Jay and I'm also leaning town on thrawn right now. I think I know the reason why he doesn't want to explain himself right now and I don't think that my pressure vote is going to work out.
@ jay
It looks like you are leaning scum on thrawn. Would you care to convince us that he is indeed scum and that we should vote him ?
As you can see, the risk to start an early bandwagon on him is not so big.
##Vote jay
I like Clarity's points on jay, and clarity seems to satisfactorily have jay covered. I'm gonna work on Adam/whoever I feel like So, I guess you are satisfied with your vote on Adam right now. According to me, Adam has been pretty clear on his stance on thrawn and I disagree with you about him: I don't see anything to blame him for right now. I'll let you do what you feel like but I'll voice my concerns if you seem mistaken. For example, right now, I feel like you should better vote for jay instead of Adam. On December 10 2012 15:34 Djodref wrote:On December 10 2012 14:53 thrawn2112 wrote:On December 10 2012 14:34 jaybrundage wrote:On December 10 2012 14:21 Clarity_nl wrote:
So someone makes a big case on you and you react by saying "glad someone is reading my posts"?
It's not that you don't put your vote where your mouth is, it's the REASON you don't vote. You shouldn't care what's easy and what's not, all you need to care about is who is scum, and try to get your strongest scumread lynched.
I would love it if you linked some games in where you claimed this has happened to you. I would also love it if you walked us through a scum thrawn's reasoning for doing what he did. Lol is my reaction not what you expected  Wait a second, the reason i didn't vote is because i don't feel i have too. A vote doesn't mean anything till the end of the cycle. I have been going after thrawn and trying to get him to respond to me. And get some kind of explanation from him. However he has yet to respond to me. THRAWN STOP GAWD DAMN IGNORING ME. And yes i do care if the lynch seems to easy. Because then from my experience, its likely a bus or a townie were killing. I'll try to find the games if i can. Its been almost a year tho. And i already gave you a scum reasoning to do what he did. On December 10 2012 10:23 jaybrundage wrote:
Hey guys just finished work ten hour shift zzzz.
Reading up so far. It appears. That thrawn either made a pretty big scum slip. Or maybe he just made a big mistake as town.
There wasn't any point to claiming miller. As if anyone read the OP (as they should it) they would know millers arent self aware.
So first your lying. I only seeing this make sense as scum. If you didnt know that miller was self aware. Then your thought process is that you self claim miller. A you can waste a DT check. Or make DT's ineffective against you.
As town i see no reason to lie about your role. Please give your reasoning. Because as far it doesn't make any sense.
Also I thought the point about debears. Posting a video to not enage in conversation was interesting. Not a scum tell or anything. But a video wont help us find scum some good solid conversation will. alright well I'm tired of the miller claim discussion so here's how it went down from my perspective. At first it was mainly a joke, but it was also intended to jump start discussion. + Show Spoiler +wow big surprise there right? Then people started taking it more seriously than I thought they would so I decided to be dickish about it in order to ignite further discussion. I actually don't mind being a potential mislynch, I think I'm better at discerning scum when they are trying to lynch me. I don't mind a bit of pressure during early D1 if it allows me to make better reads. Also.... anything is better than talking about lurker policy ffs @ thrawnIn fact, this is exactly the explanation I was waiting for you. I remembered this post from our previous Looney game when you were going to be mislynched at MYLO. On October 20 2012 09:13 thrawn2112 wrote:
Cuz I'm not scum u silly. Don't worry I love being mislynched. It's the part of the game where in the past ive figured out who is scum. So, did you manage to get any clue of who could be scum after analysing the way they treated your fakeclaim ? Regarding the post you linked, it was the conclusion I came to when I was asking myself why you were being stubborn and not wanting to explain your motivations for your fakeclaim. After my pressure vote on you, I was wondering why a town thrawn would put himself in such a situation and I remembered this post you made about how you liked to be pushed as a mislynched. So, I was ready to post it before your explanation because it was what I was expecting from you. But it was not prepared, just I knew where to find this stuff. It is a strange question. Could I ask you what you are going to do with this info ? What do you expect to hear? Are you still trying to confirm thrawn as town? Thrawn has been questioned twice already regarding this and the most he said was "bugs came out looking worse". This is another example of you fooling around trying to look like you are contributing, imo. 1)Okay, I'm just saying that it was the early game and that I didn't follow up my FoS on debears so much because it was not a very serious one. 2) I have Adam as slightly scum. Debears is convinced that Adam is scum. I would lynch Tunkeg and jay before Adam today, I would say that grush might even be a better lynch choice than Adam. This is where I disagree with debears. Basically, I'm not sure that Adam is scum because some points brought against him seem to be exaggerated in my opinion. I would prefer to let him live today so I can have a better read on him when the game goes on. 3)The conversation that you quoted has been initiated by thrawn and I was answering him. His first question was weird and I wanted to know why he asked me it in the first place, it turned out that he was still unsure of my thought process. I hope that things are clear between him and me now. This conversation was productive in my opinion. I'm not 100% sure that thrawn is town at the moment and it helped me to confirm my view on him. What would be the benefit of a scum Djodref to ask this ? [/b][/b]
Here he says hes willing to lynch Adam but in the same sentence discredits it. This is important tho. He states he wouldnt mind lynching Adam BUT THEN COMPLETLY FAILS TO DELIEVER when we need him.
On December 12 2012 01:45 Djodref wrote:Show nested quote +On December 12 2012 01:25 Vivax wrote:
Fucking hell Djodref, stop writing a river, noone's voting for you.
Instead, tell us about your reads. Who is scum and who is town in your opinion? I think that Tunkeg is mafia, less sure about jay now. I wouldn't mind to lynch Adam but I'm not sure that he would turn out to be mafia. It pains me to see that all these players are not active right now because I cannot get better reads on them. I think that Clarity and thrawn are town, less sure about debears or marv but I have them as town as well for the moment. I have Munk-E has a very slight town read because he went directly after wbg when entering the thread but I thought he was a newbie at that time. I would like Z-Bo to move on so I can see what he thinks of other players than Tunkeg and me. For the rest of the players, I'm not familiar with them so they are in a grey area.
Attemps a half joke on lynch grush who while hasnt done much has had decent reads imo
On December 12 2012 01:48 Djodref wrote:EBWOP: I wouldn't mind to lynch grush as well by the way 
Tries a desperate attempt to save his scumbuddy adam
On December 12 2012 08:06 Djodref wrote:
Anyone up for a counter bandwagon on jay ?
##Unvote
##Vote Jay
He says he will vote for adam. But never follows thru!!!!!
He is half claiming to be on the adam lynch but never wants to go with it. Saying he will vote or doesnt mind lynching adam when his actions differ completely. He had no intention to lynch adam his scum buddy
On December 12 2012 08:12 Djodref wrote:I'll vote Adam if I need to but I really don't think it's the best lynch for today... I've seen successful late (like 5 min before deadline) counter bangwagon in Mario Mini Mafia so it's never too late
And when going for me shows no results he goes for Tunkeg. Another pathetic attempt to divert the adam lynch
On December 12 2012 09:23 Djodref wrote:
And, seriously guys, you still prefer to lynch Adam to jay after Adam's latest post ?
Counter wagon ! GO GO GO !
##Unvote
##Vote jay
I think Djodref is scum. Thoughts?
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@jay
I'm tempted to agree with you, but in the first part there, where does Djo say that he wouldn't mind lynching Adam in the post you quoted? It might be that I'm sleepy, but I couldn't find it.
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Aight I'm going to bed, way too sleepy. Gnight folks.
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I agree jay
I'm also concerned about wbg, hapa, and maybe, maybe vivax, i'm the least sure about him. however other people seem to have enough interest in wbg to get that discussion going, and hapa is new so i'm going to focus on djo for the time being
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bl is still worrisome because of his post count but his vote for adam doesn't look like a buss. it looks like he was sheeping palmar pretty hard.
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On December 12 2012 13:36 Z-BosoN wrote:
debears. Admit I'm right on wbg/vivax. Admit it. Gogogo
:thumb:
For real though, I like where you are going with it. I can see either of them being scum.
also on my list of most likely scummers are Munk(Hapa), Clarity, and jay
Hopefully I will get around to typing out cases on them tomorrow lol
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and I better add Djo and BL to my possible naughty list
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Around page 24 - leaning town on Vivax in spite of Z-Bo's case for two reasons.
1) Adam posts a case on Vivax shortly after dropping his "confrontation" with debears:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=384953¤tpage=24#463
Vivax is under some fire already, and it would be a really strange play for Adam to go after a hypothetical scumbuddy like this when there were plenty of other targets to chose from at this point in the game (Tunkeg, Jay, etc). Unless all these guys are scum, the Vivax choice makes very little sense if Vivax is scum.
2) He posted a dry-erase board picture of an "analysis web" of the Thrawn "incident" earlier in the game. That says try-hard townie to me.
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@ Jay
1. I sheeped Clarity and Clarity's case was worth sheeping. But you are twisting the facts when you say that I've sheeped for voting Tunkeg. I provided my own case for Tunkeg before voting him. Also I have done more than you in this game so don't be an hypocrite.
2. I have stated multiple times than I didn't feel like Adam was the best lynch. So I've tried to promote my top scumread lynches over Adam lynch. The majority was reached for Adam's lynch without my help so I didn't need to cast my vote against him.
3. My actions before the lynch are more relevant of a town Djodref not knowing if Adam was going to flip scum or not than of a scum Djodref that would have known that Adam was going to flip scum (it was quite clear he was today's lynch after my first attempt to lead a counter bandwagon on you). It would have been easier and safer for scum me to bus Adam because I had given me this escape route before when I said that I didn't mind an Adam lynch. Ok, this is WIFOM, but you should know that my behavior before the lynch points towards a town Djodref and not a scum Djodref.
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EBWOP: I was serious regarding a grush lynch. This guy is just a liability.
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On December 12 2012 14:39 Djodref wrote:
EBWOP: I was serious regarding a grush lynch. This guy is just a liability.
I actually have a read on him now, and it's town. What do you think about his actual filter, not his meta? I'm surprised that you would be talking about a grush policy lynch after a successful D1 lynch. A policy lynch is the last thing I have on my mind going into D2 after flipping a scum on D1.
btw, I've concluded that grush is probably a smart troll. He's either smart for being right about adam or he's smart for doing the thing that makes me think he's town.
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On December 12 2012 14:39 Djodref wrote:
EBWOP: I was serious regarding a grush lynch. This guy is just a liability.
He obviously isn't a liability considering he voted for a scum. So either he's
1) A scum bussing his partner
2) A townie that agrees with good logic
Your pick. You can't call him a liability
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Lol thrawn you ninja'd me so.
But hey we agree!
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Vivax
A tentative associative case with Adam
First of all, I think that Z-Bo did a great job to show that Vivax vote on Adam looks like a bus vote. Here is Z-Bo previous case on Vivax for reference+ Show Spoiler [Z-Bo's case] +Vivax. Let us take a gander. His mindset was 100% not inclined towards killing Adam. I mean, look at some of his posts: States clear disinterest in lynching Adam: On December 12 2012 01:51 Vivax wrote:
ffs I don't wanna get Adam lynched.
Let's get jay cmon, just cause he's out of attention doesn't mean he didn't act scumm.y Shows some soft-suspicion towards Tunkeg: On December 12 2012 02:37 Vivax wrote:
Wtf Tunkeg, can't you share your reads some earlier instead of going martyr-mode at this time. Then he includes Adam, but as a last option: On December 12 2012 06:23 Vivax wrote:
Either Bluelightz, Jay or Tunk.
The initial case against Adam was pretty bad, but his latest activity isn't exactly townie, since he's not been doing anything useful nor defending himself much. He's the last option for me.
Then suddenly, WAM BAM KAPLOW. Soft-suspicion on tunkeg yet again (???) and VOTE ADAMOn December 12 2012 06:40 Vivax wrote:Show nested quote +On December 12 2012 06:29 Tunkeg wrote:
Don't worry I am not pissed at anyone, I just don't mind getting lynched all that much. I have given you my reads, and me as flipped town gives strenght to my arguements. Dude, that's a really bad attitude. You have 1000 ways to strengthen your arguments other than to accept a mislynch just like that. And even if everybody follows your arguments after that, which is as unlikely as it was before, you still might be super wrong about them, so it also shows you are pretty cocky about your opinion. (Or maybe you're scum who has succeeded in fooling us all) Anyway, 6 votes on Adam so far, count me in for the last 3. I like what grush had to say in this one. Inbefore OMG HE'S BANDWAGONING.
##Unvote
##Vote Adam Why the soft-suspicion on tunkeg? Why the change of heart? Let's see what happens between the last two posts I quoted. There is just this post from grush: On December 12 2012 06:25 grush57 wrote:
That's pretty reasonable. I'm a bit cautious of Bluelightz because he is a vet. Jay strikes me as a foolish townie and Tunk is probably a noobie. I want to vote Adam because he is reminding me of his scum play. And the post that he quoted from tunkeg, where he added some soft-suspicion yet again. There was no reason to change his mind from a townie perspective, especially with four hours left on the clock. Plenty of time to push his "alternatives". I think he must have assumed that he wouldn't be able to save Adam and decided to bus him.
I'm more interested in Vivax first mention ever of Adam. In my opinion, the following post is damning.
On December 11 2012 21:24 Vivax wrote:I've read Adams filter.So basically, the case on him seems to be built on "the change of tone in his post". That post with changed tone dabears mentioned was written one day after the last ones, so it's likely that he's writing like that cause he's not heated up like the day before. That day, he finished into an OMGUS fight with dabears, where they basically both vote for each other cause they argue about having to vote for the people you lean scum on. And this is where the matter stinks. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=384953¤tpage=9#171This is dabeers post about Adam. OH SHIT HE'S SUSPICIOUS CAUSE HE'S NOT VOTING FOR THRAWN. Look at the post, look at the voting thread, look at the reactions. Adam voted before debears upon being accused by him of not voting thrawn, meanwhile, dabears accused Adam of something he himself did. Only clarity so far has expressed criticism of this case against Adam, now I will, too. 1.The case is shit 2.The case is shit 3.The case is shit Being this a shit case accepted by many people, I think there's scum trying to sheep in it.
First of all, Vivax states that "[He has] read Adam's filter". That's useless and pointless because he then proceed to hard defend Adam from the 'case' of debears, and explaining what was going around at that time. I'm quite sure that he didn't read Adam's filter and tried to defend his scum buddy straight away. Why ? Because if he really had read Adam's filter, he would have found the following post in it.
+ Show Spoiler [Adam attacking Vivax] +On December 11 2012 12:49 Adam4167 wrote:No good is going to come of getting into a shit-fight with dabears, so I wont. My initial read towards him was "leaning scum" when I questioned his 'case/not-case' that he made on me, but that was a long time ago. Since then he's put a lot of effort into his focus on me and while I know this is misguided, I also feel that it is coming from an honest place, hence why I am not screaming that he is intentionally taking all of my posts out of context, because I do not believe it to be the case. ##Unvote
The person I am interested in right now is Vivax. Show nested quote +On December 11 2012 02:59 Vivax wrote:
That VE defends thrawn with another argument than thrawn himself used.
What motivations would he have to defend him if he doesn't even grasp thrawns own point of view? He might aswell have not read his posts, not showing any interest in scumhunting with that trail available.
I might also remind you that VE has been present since 9:44, but only posts as answer to jay at around 10:23. He's shown lack of interest in the matter from start.
My conclusion?Maybe scummy, maybe sloppy.
You want me to go further than this?We've got enough time to vote. If I had to do it now it would be thrawn.
Fakeclaiming as joke is a pretty shitty move. This post here, you say that VE shows no interest in scumhunting, is actively lurking the thread and yet conclude "maybe scum, maybe sloppy". This is very wishy-washy and ultimately amounts to nothing. What was the point of pointing this out if you were not going to draw any conclusions from it either way? You accuse VE of scummy actions yet in the same post say that you would vote thrawn over it for his 'joke' claim. To me, this looks like acting like you're trying to scum hunt without actually doing anything. Then not long after you produce: Show nested quote +On December 11 2012 03:42 Vivax wrote:
After thinking about thrawns actions more thoroughly, there's another aspect that I think noone mentioned so far:
If he was a scum fakeclaiming, believing that millers are self-aware, he would take the risk of facing a counterclaim.
As others mentioned, he's drawn attention with that. But identifying scum with stereotypes isn't exactly the way. Why wouldn't scum be able to draw attention and get away with it?
He would have made following mistakes:
1. Overlooked the rule about self-awareness. Obvious.
2. Forgotten to consider another miller, under the premise that he really made mistake 1.
I don't believe it was a joke though, rather some sort of strategy. Maybe he would have brought these points up by himself at some point, betting on town not believing that he would do such mistakes. This post looks to be saying that thrawn has some agenda or strategy by fakeclaiming miller and that you no longer believe it was a joke. Ok, if he's playing with some form of strategy, do you believe it to be a scum one, you do not comment on his alignment either way with this post. It is mostly just a rehashing of what Clarity posted. Show nested quote +On December 11 2012 05:38 Vivax wrote:So I've been scratching my balls while reading the thread for the last 20 minutes, and when I saw jaybrundages posts, they started to hurt. ##Vote jaybrundageOn December 11 2012 04:23 Tunkeg wrote:
Thrawn's "claim" is a joke claim. He did it in the very beginning, and quickly and without concern went back on it. I didn't like his response when called out on it. But when he in the end explained why he did as he did, it was an ok (no more, no less) explanation. So you are okay with this post? On December 10 2012 09:57 thrawn2112 wrote:
any answer I could possibly give would just betray the actual purpose behind that post, making whatever I hoped to accomplish with that post no longer possible To me it looks like you didn't study the matter enough. This explanation sucks hard. He's basically leaving the defense of himself to everybody else. He never said explicitly that he joked, he only said explicitly that he had intentions, fuck knows which. That being said, I suggest you go back and read the stuff before you make the same mistake I made with clarity. Then a vote on Jaybrundage comes seemingly out of nowhere once interest in him picks up in the thread. What happened to Thrawn? or VE? The reasoning for this vote does not appear until after someone presses you for it and the reasoning you provide is just a summary of his actions, and it does not illustrate why Jaybrundage is scum. Furthermore, for someone that said here that you just couldnt let thrawns claim go, you dropped it exceedingly quickly to pursue Jaybrundage. I find your lack of follow-up on VE or Thrawn shows you had no intent on trying to find out their alignment.
Just as a remark, please note the Adam didn't vote Vivax after this post.
Look at the time stamps, Adam had voiced his suspicion of Vivax before the post where Vivax states that "he has read Adam's filter".
Let's say that you are town. You found a 'case' against you in someone's filter. What do you do ?
Do you proceed to hard defend this guy first ?
Do you defend yourself first ? Don't you get suspicious of this guy who is attacking you ?
Town Vivax proceeds to hard defend the guy first. Town Vivax must have a super duper town read on Adam. Not buying it
Vivax reaction after "reading Adam's filter" doesn't show a townie mindset at all. He has been already called for it and look how he responded to it.
On December 11 2012 22:37 Vivax wrote:
I'm reading better than you think . I still think your case is full of shit. I see a lot of word-twisting in it.
And I don't care if Adam is voting for me as long as I believe him to be town. What kind of bad question is that.
Why are you thinking from a scum point of view?
*snip*
So, yeah, Vivax doesn't care if Adam attacked him before and is ready to defend him because he believes his town.
That raises the following questions:- How did Vivax get this town read on Adam ? He has never interacted with him and Adam was far from being a beacon of townieness.
- How did Vivax end up by voting Adam at the end of the day ?
I cannot answer these questions by anything else that Vivax was Adam's scumbuddy. Vivax is scum.
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