EPTI would coach but i have pretty much no experience
/in screw it
Newbie Mini Mafia XXIX
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debears
United States2516 Posts
I would coach but i have pretty much no experience /in screw it | ||
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debears
United States2516 Posts
 I am kinda interested to see how coaching would go kushI have the feeling that I would a) give too much away or b) put the person I'm coaching on a very wrong path | ||
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debears
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debears
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you should really join bugs game | ||
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debears
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A little bit of a repeat of the ver/ser aspi game? Coaching by example? | ||
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debears
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Let's not get hasty with the voting/shooting/FOSing him. We're in the early stages of d1 of the pregame thread | ||
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debears
United States2516 Posts
Voting for someone who doesn't exist in the thread. ##Vote iamperfection Who is this Debars fella? | ||
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debears
United States2516 Posts
On October 10 2012 07:01 prplhz wrote: [W] Newbie Mini Mafia XXVIII ended in a mafia victory! thrawn2112 pretty much hosted the game by himself so i recommend he be put on the host list priceless | ||
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debears
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debears
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debears
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debears
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debears
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Djo SK, Me town Djo town, Me SK Djo SK, Me scum Djo scum, Me SK Djo SK, Me SK | ||
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debears
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debears
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What else will i do with my drunk bear blasts? | ||
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debears
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debears
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On October 23 2012 10:37 DarthPunk wrote: Please please please make a Djo, Debears, Alsn scum team Nah that'd be wayyyy to ez. Anyways. I'm the logical choice for SK, with this being my last newbie. Thrawn would definitely pass on the torch of last newbie game as SK since it's the most fun :D | ||
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debears
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debears
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debears
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On October 24 2012 01:36 marvellosity wrote: I don't think you quite understand the nature of a Serial Killer I'd be a psychological serial killer in that scenario. Making everyone kill everyone else. Mwaahahahhha | ||
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debears
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debears
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debears
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debears
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debears
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A few things I'd like to know from everyone. 1) How many games have you played in? 2) How many have you observed seriously? 3)Will you be normally around for lynch? For me 1) 2 games 2) 3/4 3) Yes I will - except this friday (most likely. I play baseball for my college and we have a game friday night. don't know for sure how long it will go) Look forward to hearing from all of you. Let's get this rolllinngggg!!!!!! | ||
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debears
United States2516 Posts
@Dandel Agreed. Lurkers are obviously detrimental to every game. Be active boys. @Everyone Finally, I will not tolerate anyone playing the noob card this game. After the Djo looney lynching spectacle and Djo's play in the last newbie I was very mad..........It's hard for anyone to differentiate newbie town and newbie scum. DON'T DO IT. Also, USE YOUR COACHES. They improve the quality of the game and help you improve much faster :D | ||
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debears
United States2516 Posts
On October 25 2012 09:18 Dandel Ion wrote: You get to gobble up the insights into things, from people that are better at mafia than you are. Or something. Why it's relevant for the thread to know how many games you've obs'd, I don't know. It doesn't really matter imo. Dandel it's relevant, especially for newbies. At the very least they've seen how a whole game works, which is hugely important. | ||
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debears
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debears
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If you don't know what playing the noobie card is guys, check out Djo's filters in the last two games.....you'll see it pretty easily in those | ||
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debears
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Look at the last newbie real quick and read Djo's filter and look at how he goes out of his way to say he's noobie. | ||
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debears
United States2516 Posts
On September 29 2012 16:49 Djodref wrote: @DarthPunk well, it's because of the two following posts of debears towards me + Show Spoiler + On September 28 2012 13:24 debears wrote: @darthpunk You could also say that you are too convinced in your reasons. What I am cautious of at this point is that you stated directly before the game that you were after kush if he plays like he has in his past 3 games. I feel like that may be clouding your judgement in this situation. Our main goal is to lynch mafia. Yes, kush has said some scummy things. However, I'm not gonna go around parading this early saying "kush is scum. Kush is scum. OMFG". Also, let the man defend himself instead of trying to rally everyone active behind your cause so early. If he is scummy, the votes will come. Anyhow. I see two others who have suspiciously posted. @Boson + Show Spoiler + On September 28 2012 09:10 Z-BosoN wrote: After LVII I'm rather liking the idea of policy lynches, in extreme cases. Killing lurkers in a lurker-infested town, for example, is something I'm inclined to agree on. If the town proves itself active, then whoever proves himself scummier will occupy the noose. Given that this is a newbie game, scums are generally more scared to post. While that is a general tendency, I don't agree with mass posters being cleared right off the bat, even if their posts seem meaningful. What I suggest in this game, is that people read. From my few games, much time is usually wasted discussing things that have not been read properly. This is a rather useless post. Newbie towns want to scumhunt. Newbie scum want to look like they are scumhunting. That =/= posting a lot but not for the sake of posting, or whatever you meant. And please tell me, what do you mean? You say you hope to have moved past the lurker discussion, and yet you are telling people to post a lot? In my eyes you are telling people not to lurk because that will make them seem scummy. It seems to me that you are indirectly stating your views on lurkers despite openly saying you don't want to talk about them. Boson, please try not to read too hard into a person's very first posts and make something out of nothing. It is pretty clear what sonic was saying. He wants newbies to post so that they don't get grouped under the lurker corral that usually follows up later. Last game, we had lurkers galore and it really messed up the town. Also, you mention that his post is useless. Now I will examine your two other posts in terms of uselessness. A one-liner. A question that really doesn't accomplish anything. In other words, a useless post. Also, your next post doesn't address his response although he responded right after and you posted within 30 minutes of his response in a pretty light thread. On September 28 2012 09:43 Z-BosoN wrote: @DP Saying we will lynch lurkers is one thing. Deciding whether a lurker should die later at day two is another. What I said is I'm inclined to lynch a lurker if there aren't better choices, not that we will 100% lynch a lurker. @Stutters I'd like to see more posts from you. In XXIV you showed you were capable of making decent posts as town, so I encourage you to post eve more here. @kush What's your view on darthpunk? You said you don't like his coldness, but you don't like it in a "he's scum" sort of way? Yet again, nothing of substance here. You go more in depth about semantics (is that the right word I'm looking for?) about lynching lurkers and lynching lurkers at day two. Second, you call out stutters, who has already been warned by others and most likely the mods for no reason this early in the game. Finally, two sentences, two questions going on about the exact wording of kush's statements. It sounded like before the game you had stated that you have played in multiple games. Is that true? For someone who is telling other people to not post useless posts, you aren't doing a good job of it yourself. Looks more like you are trying to just be active while off the radar. In other words, you are a semi-active lurker who has bad post quality. Sounds like characteristics of a certain alignment. @Djoref + Show Spoiler + On September 28 2012 08:51 Djodref wrote: @Darthpunk Nevermind you look just more confident to get a scum on D1 than me. Regarding my plan, I think we need general directions to follow because of the majority lynch. It is a way to gather everybody around 2-3 suspicious players and secure a lynch. I'm assuming everyone agree on a no-lynch to be stupid. Djoref, I don't like that statement at all. That's the second post you bring up about the likelihood of lynching a townie d1. As town, you should never have that mentality. I would probably less likely to bring this up if you were a total nooby. However, you said you "know Kush's meta" which means you have some decent understanding of the game for a noob. By saying this, it seems that you are setting yourself an excuse to be indecisive later in the day when the lynch voting comes around. Alone, it isn't much. However, your other posts don't help. On September 28 2012 08:44 Djodref wrote: @Darthpunk Considering that we are likely to lynch a town on D1, don't you think it's a lesser wrong to get rid of someone inactive ? Inactivity means no scumhunt and room to hide for the mafia... After playing mafia last game, I feel like heavy lurking is a bad play for mafia. It puts too much pressure on you are as a scum. Instead, posting lightly without much substance is more mafia indicative. Yet again, I feel you are just looking like you are contributing without saying much. Especially when you already covered your thoughts in a previous post. On September 28 2012 08:36 Djodref wrote: Hello everybody ! About me This is my first game ever on forum but I've been playing on SC2mafia and also irl. But I've been lurking on the TL Mafia forum for a while (so I know your meta kush^^) and I decided to join this newbie game. I'm also a French guy and I live in Korea so my english is not on top and it's going to ne difficult for me to be around at deadline (5.00 am KST). Lurker policy From the games I've seen, unless you have a golden scumslip on d1, it's very difficult to lynch a scum the very first day. So I have no problem ending up voting for the most suspicious lurker at the end of the day. I define most suspicious lurker as a semi-lurker just trying to blend in. Day Plan I don't think to be able to be around for the first deadline so I would like to propose a day plan to secure a lynch as we are using a majority vote. First 24 hours to find lynch candidates while scumhunting and next 20 hours to decide who is the scummiest. Last 4 hours to consolidate the vote or switch to a lurker. Please discuss Notice how you are just repeating points? It isn't helpful to us. Next post On September 28 2012 11:09 Djodref wrote: @Kush Was it also a joke ? How can you be so sure you are not going to be NKed ? A two sentence, two question post. I don't like these. They are worthless. Also, this question came quite a bit later after darthpunk already was asking questions about joking. You seem to be sheeping onto darth's case against kush. On September 28 2012 11:53 Djodref wrote: I would also like to hear you explanations about this specific part. I don't have a read on Darth on the moment considering he has only been hard tunneling you. As you said yourself you have a scummy meta so you are an easy target for early game to put pressure on. So what makes him so much town ? Yet again, this post is just repeating what darth is saying. Another question. I don't like this. Your early posts are indicative of a semi-active scum. Sheeping, question posts, and rehashing things already said multiple times. this one makes me a suspicious poster + Show Spoiler + On September 29 2012 01:55 debears wrote: @Djoref Please pm marv for help. The coaches are great And this one makes me a newbie town That's why I want him to clarify his opinions of me Doing the work for ya :D cuz I know where to look | ||
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debears
United States2516 Posts
On September 30 2012 22:57 Djodref wrote: Hello guys ! I understand your suspicions but I'm just a town newbie with a lot of bad posts. I'll try my best to step up and post cases. If you don't mind, I'm going to build a case on debears before addressing your attacks because I feel I might screwing up myself more if I spend too much time defending your cases against me. But I can shortly explain my backflip on Kush. At the beginning of the game, I was not confident at all to nail a scum on day 1. I have even been called for it but, as a newbie, I didn't think I could have a correct read on someone (be it town or scum) and was really afraid of a mislynch. So, at that time, when Darth found Kush scumslip, I was not ready to believe it was so easy to find a scum. That's why I bought kush's explanations for his scumslip. After that I went out and slept and when I came back to the thread I found all the crazy posts from kush and also SDM case. I realized at this point that the slip was indeed a scum slip. Also I realized that not being confident is bad for town so I boost up my confidence. I called the scumteam kush/debears/corrosion and also was more and more sure of kush being red. | ||
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debears
United States2516 Posts
I don't like that shit. Makes the game super confusing. Anways, I'm heading out to drinkzor's (how much, I do not know). I expect everyone else to at least be stopping by and answering the questions I laid out. Seriously, it takes 1 minute to do them. I'll be checking on my phone and posting when I can! | ||
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debears
United States2516 Posts
On October 25 2012 10:08 Dandel Ion wrote: That goes without saying. Having a confirmed scum can be hard though.. And is next to impossible day 1 (since no possible DT checks) unless there is a serious slip. That is why policy lynches day 1 can end up being a necessity. That said, I'm going to sleep. See you in a few hours. What are you saying here exactly? Policy lynches are by no means a necessity. If we are confident and push reads, like dp did last game, then the scum will show. Why do you lack the confidence of catching scum d1? FOS dandel Btw guys officially postjng from phone for rest of night. Tell me if something gets messes up and u can't read | ||
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debears
United States2516 Posts
On October 25 2012 09:52 Djodref wrote: You are sure taking lurker policy lynch seriously. Would you explain us at which point suspicious players become better lynch candidates than inactive players ? Djo, why did you suddenly drop this after cheesecake responded? Also, why did you interpret his post as taking lurker policy "so seriously" when he was respondjng to a question? | ||
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debears
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debears
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On October 25 2012 12:00 Rad wrote: You're being especially confusing right now, at least for me. Dan basically said sure, if we have a confirmed mafia d1 (which he claims would be difficult without a major slip), lynch, otherwise it might be necessary to policy lynch. This seems reasonable. Your statement, however, is extremely confusing. Without knowing your previous game in depth, none of what I quoted above means anything. Can you please explain more briefly/clearly "where your confidence got you"? Also, what does your previous confidence have to do with any potential scenario for a d1 lynch? Ok this phone posting iw hard. Forgive th disorganization. Confidence has everything to do with d1. If everyone is confident and pushes cases, then scum will be forced to do the same. That is the key. We need to force scumcto contribute early My confidence led to me making a game winning case on arguably the most townie looking player (who was the last scum) | ||
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debears
United States2516 Posts
On October 25 2012 12:53 Djodref wrote: @debears The part I've bolded in Cheese's post was a comment about dandel's post you have picked on. It was not related to the part where he was answering your questions. He didn't mention any other good candidates for lynching than inactive players so I thought he wanted to lynch based on lurker policy lynch today. But he has clarified his position since then. Very well djo. I found the wording of seriously strong for your post. Can you clarify why you have a sudden 180 on confidence on day 1 from your last game as town? | ||
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debears
United States2516 Posts
I understand what you're saying. However, you are misinterpretjng my words. I'm not saying go on a tunneling spree. I'm saying have the confidence to make a case on anyone and pursue that case until you find that person town or someone else more scummy | ||
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debears
United States2516 Posts
On October 25 2012 13:27 Rad wrote: Why even think about artificial confidence though? Why is the concept of confidence even something to be considered beyond "if you're confident, push your case!" That's all confidence is good for. Artificial confidence does nothing. I get the point of "try to be more confident in your reads" or something to that extent, but I don't understand what's good about having confidence in pushing for a d1 scum lynch instead of lynching a lurker. We should do whatever we think is best at that point, not necessarily 1 thing or the other. Why are you so focused on lynching a lurker over a scumread right now imo lurker lynches are last resorts to scumreads. If a lurker has a scumread, that's a bonus. Why do you keep pressing this "artificial confidence" thing when newbie games are notorious for lurking (usually caused by fear/lack of confidence) and lack of confidence? | ||
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debears
United States2516 Posts
On October 25 2012 13:34 Rad wrote: I agree that we should have confidence when pursuing a case. Not sure what that has to do with Dan's original statement that it's hard to find scum d1. He didn't say it was necessary to lynch a lurker, he said it can end up being a necessity, which seems reasonable. Do you agree that it can end up being a necessity? No. Its not a necessity. Its a backup. Now we're delving into lurker lynch discussion, which does nothing. Why are you focusing on keeping the topic on lurkers? | ||
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debears
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debears
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On October 25 2012 13:27 Rad wrote: Why even think about artificial confidence though? Why is the concept of confidence even something to be considered beyond "if you're confident, push your case!" That's all confidence is good for. Artificial confidence does nothing. I get the point of "try to be more confident in your reads" or something to that extent, but I don't understand what's good about having confidence in pushing for a d1 scum lynch instead of lynching a lurker. We should do whatever we think is best at that point, not necessarily 1 thing or the other. That is the statement I'm talking about. Am i missing something here? Can someone help me out? You don't understand having confidence to pusb d1 scum reads over lurkers? What do scum want? Easy lynchs. Who are easy lynches? Lurkers. FOS Rad | ||
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debears
United States2516 Posts
##Vote Rad | ||
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debears
United States2516 Posts
On October 25 2012 14:05 da0ud wrote: I do agree with you on this one. That makes no point lynching a lurker over a clear scum read. Even though I am not sure we will have very clear reads on day1. I am not sure about this point. It makes sense for scum to hide among lurkers: - If the attention is not put on lurkers the scummy lurker moves on undetected. - If the attention is put on the scummy lurker, then it is easy for the other scums to bully him and gain town credit. The problem with this assumption is that you think scum will take a route that will lead them to a center of controversy come lynch. time. Lurker policy lynch is a standard in pretty much any mafia game. Lurkers are in no way beneficial to town. On the other hand, a group that tends to get by as mafia is the semi active lurkers. These are the guys that chime in with worthless posts that appear useful on the surface. Look at Ver's Mafia XXX analysis. It makes sense. Semi active lurkers can look like they are contributing without actually putting themselves at real risk. Straight up lurking is something that will put you in the spotlight as mafia. Thus, mafia, most likely being semi active lurkers, are going to go for easy lynches, since they don't have to stick their head out with any game breaking analysis. See my logic (not really mine actually, more of general logic)? | ||
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debears
United States2516 Posts
On October 25 2012 13:54 sylverfyre wrote: Whoa what? I don't follow your line of reasoning that he's pushing for policy lynching lurkers over a scumread. When he said, early on: FOS: debears. Explain more clearly where your scum tell is? Ok now I'm actually going to bed. Here's the post below that I was talking about witht the scum tell On October 25 2012 13:27 Rad wrote: Why even think about artificial confidence though? Why is the concept of confidence even something to be considered beyond "if you're confident, push your case!" That's all confidence is good for. Artificial confidence does nothing. I get the point of "try to be more confident in your reads" or something to that extent, but I don't understand what's good about having confidence in pushing for a d1 scum lynch instead of lynching a lurker. We should do whatever we think is best at that point, not necessarily 1 thing or the other. Read the line in red again "I don't understand what's good about having confidence in pushing for a d1 scum lynch instead of lynching a lurker......How in the fuck is that not a scum tell. Why in the hell would a townie say that???????? And Rad, the sentence after has no affect on the scumminess of that statement at all. You just said that you did no see reason in pushing a d1 scum lynch over a lurker. Now, if the following sentence had said "If there is no good candidate for a scum lynch, then we should lynch a lurker", it would make sense...You didn't bring up that scenario. You just said whatever is best for town in that scenario. Well, the best thing for town in that scenario is a scum lynch....duh. Obvious contradiction? Let's think of the benefits of pushing a d1 scum lynch 1) We lynch a scum 2) refer to 1) 3) We scramble the scum team and make them make a decision on who to vote Case coming up on rad | ||
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debears
United States2516 Posts
On October 25 2012 09:33 Rad wrote: Lurkers policy, well, I guess lynch lurkers if there's no better option? Can you explain what what the noob card is? Here Rad comes into the thread, unsure on something like lurker policy, which is pretty obvious if you've seen a TL mafia game, which he stated he has. On October 25 2012 12:00 Rad wrote: You're being especially confusing right now, at least for me. Dan basically said sure, if we have a confirmed mafia d1 (which he claims would be difficult without a major slip), lynch, otherwise it might be necessary to policy lynch. This seems reasonable. Your statement, however, is extremely confusing. Without knowing your previous game in depth, none of what I quoted above means anything. Can you please explain more briefly/clearly "where your confidence got you"? Also, what does your previous confidence have to do with any potential scenario for a d1 lynch? He goes and defends another player over a simple question that I asked that player when that player hasn't responded first. Mafia tend to due this since they KNOW someone is town. What's a better way to get townie points? Then the part on what confidence has to do with any d1 lynch scenario. WHAT D1 LYNCH IS BASED ON SUCH HARD EVIDENCE THAT YOU CAN BE COMPLETELY CONFIDENT ON IT AS TOWN? None. It takes fucking balls to stand up with your accusations, even in the chance that they might be wrong. On October 25 2012 13:15 Rad wrote: I'm really not getting this whole confidence theme going on and not really sure what confidence has to do with lynching a scum on d1. Confidence should be a result of being sure of something, not just being confident for the sake of being confident. If we're confident on a scum lynch d1, great, we lynch them, but really that confidence should come naturally from knowing we're right on a lynch vote. Even as a complete newbie, I'm not looking at this as "newbie vs newbie", I'm just looking at it as myself vs a bunch of unknown people. I'm certainly not counting on someone screwing up, which is how you're suggesting we approach this. The only way that it would be easy to find a scum d1 is if they slip up, and there's no guarantee that they'll slip up, newbie or not. For all we know, they could all lurk, which means they cannot slip up, and your "confidence" would only lead to lynching someone who's not lurking because you've forced yourself to be "confident". Yet again, he talks of scum reads like they are 100% foolproof. That is wrong. The best townies on TL are wrong on cases all the time. Don't give me that, we must make sure he's 100% scum before voting, bullshit. No way. Cases don't start that way. Lynches don't start that way. On October 25 2012 13:21 Rad wrote: It wasn't your confidence, it was your reasoning. Confidence had nothing to do with it. I completely agree that we should push cases, but we shouldn't become unnecessarily confident and make lynch decisions based on it. Confidence based on nothing makes no sense. Confidence based on something is what will come naturally. No one has said that we should necessarily lynch lurkers on d1. Analyze, make a case IF you're confident, and then we can push for a scum lynch or push for a lurker lunch depending on how confident we all are. Now he makes up some bullshit statement that my lynch of SDM had nothing to do with confidence. Really? I was at threat of being lynched. And instead of fighting for not being lynched, I sacked myself and went all out on the most townie looking player at that point (at least in my eyes). Do you really think that doesn't take any confidence? And how are you suddenly an expert on last game when you didn't even know what I was refering to with my SDM case before??????? On October 25 2012 13:38 Rad wrote: Please point out where I've said that we should lynch a lurker over a scum read. I'm all for helping newbies be more confident in pursuing their cases, but it has nothing to do with "we can get a scum read d1!". That's "artificial confidence" and doesn't make sense. I'm completely open to a reasonable argument where it does make sense though. So here he wants newbies to suddenly hide in their holes, citing what has been previously said on confidence as "artificial". This is a forced argument. He ignores the fact that confidence = increased posting and scumhunting. On October 25 2012 14:00 Rad wrote: So you FOS dan for no reason, and when I try to make sense of your reasoning giving you plenty of chances to clear it up, you fos me, and then claim I scumslipped and vote me? FOS debears Wow. Isn't this OMGUS? I've tried explaining how confidence = increased posting and scumreads. And then how increased posting = less room for mafia to hide. He doesn't get simple logic like that????? Then he tries to play it off like I'm doing something wrong. "I give you plenty of chances to clear it up". Last time I checked, I'm the one wanting you to clear your view up. And a weak FOS to back it. On October 25 2012 14:10 Rad wrote: Please re-read the post he's quoting me on there. When you put it all in context, it should make sense to you what I meant (along with my other posts before it). Let me know if my point isn't clear there and I'll try to make it more understandable. To me it seems like he's trying to push out an obvious statement that people will agree with in order to cover up what I really meant. So now you're trying to discredit my statements instead of accurately explaining your own. "he's trying to put up an obvious statement to cover up what I really meant". I'm not covering up anything. I'm showing everyone an obvious scumslip that you said. It's a contradicting statment in a mafia-oriented way. See my post to da0ud about it. Your defense of my scumread on you is that "the context backs it up". Bullshit. bullshit. bullshit. On October 25 2012 14:11 Rad wrote: EBWOP - I also agree that there's no point in lynching a lurker over a clear scum read. That's not what I said originally but is what he's trying to make it seem like I said. Ah. Now you're restating what you said. Your best defense is that I'm trying to make it seem like you said "I don't understand what's good about having confidence in pushing for a d1 scum lynch instead of lynching a lurker" Finally, my final part of my case is the lack of scumhunting that Rad has actually done. His sole focus is on me and "artificail confidence". His only scumhunting is a weak FOS on me. And he is more concerned on defending himself than finding scum. Rad you are pretty damn scummy in my eyes. My vote will stand with you unless I see a person who is more scummy. | ||
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debears
United States2516 Posts
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debears
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debears
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I would like to call attention to Inig On October 25 2012 17:40 Inigmaticalism wrote: I personally feel like Rad has explained himself in a decent (although strange) way, and am concerned when it seems like debears is trying to shove a sword through Rads monitor to clear up opinions on policy issues. And as for the scum hunting, you and him have done pretty much the same amount given the few hours the games been running, and more than most everyone else (including me). I say get him to clear up his stances better and then get everyone else to talk, and then come back and see if he follows through on what he says. If Rad can't explain himself, Ill be more willing to actually vote for him. Also, I found Mr. Cheesecakes to be interesting. No town or scum tell; I just want to read more of your posts. Some notes here. Inig has posted only 4 posts I believe since the game started. This is his last one. After I make a lengthy case on Rad, he comes in and discredits me in such a wishy washy way. 1) He never states which part of my case is "thrusting a sword" into Rad 2) He never states exactly why he finds Rad's explanations suitable despite my case For someone who apparently is keeping track of the argument between me and Rad, he sure seems unwilling to comment on the actual case right after the case was posted. Also, where did he go after that? Giving poor reasoning without quotes to back it up and then just bailing after you criticize someone is anti-town | ||
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debears
United States2516 Posts
Notice how he just states Cheesecake is a null tell? There is enough going onto the thread at that point for him to contribute SOMETHING. I can state null tells all day. Where will that get us? | ||
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debears
United States2516 Posts
I have some thoughts on the Djo case. I would like Djo to post for one. Djo get your butt in here and answer why you called someone town please. | ||
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debears
United States2516 Posts
But why did you use the wording "I expect you to do your job as town". That statement implies that you know he is town. Theres no wishy washness or "if your town". That's why its very weird And daud (sry I'm calling you that now). Using logic involving a sk at this point is not good logic. 1) a seri killer wouldnt know if you are town while mafia would. 2) we don't have any idea whether there is a sk. Its best to not worry about it unless there are a pair of nks on any night | ||
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debears
United States2516 Posts
On October 25 2012 23:18 Djodref wrote: @dandel Yeah, it's not exactly the same kind of question but I don't think you can freely wave it off as scum. If you have to lie, it makes you uncomfortable. If you are uncomfortable, you are going to post some shit. Why did you ask the question? The answer is pretty obvious as town or scum You'd say "I'm town" no matter what. The question was useless and you know it. There is no real reaction that can be read from a question like that. It's not a big lie if the person is mafia by any means. I don't like that. It makes you look like you are contributing without actually doing so | ||
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debears
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On October 26 2012 00:11 Rad wrote: My point, which is completely consistent with what I've said time and time again in this thread, and which is clarified in the sentence after the one you bolded red, is that I see no good logical reason to "have confidence" that we'll necessarily find a scum on d1. The logical reason isn't necessary to catch scum. It's to make people post while possibly lynching mafia. You aren't fully reading my reasoning If we find a scum on d1, wonderful! I think we should definitely try our hardest to, and if you have a good read on someone, naturally you should be confident and follow through. If we don't, and we have no better option, then lynch a lurker. I also totally get pushing newbies to "be more confident" but both you and djo were pushing this confidence theme as if suddenly just being confident will make town get a lynch on d1. This seemed extremely suspicious to me and is why I started asking questions. To summarize: "GO TEAM! BE CONFIDENT!" - I get, though this isn't what you two were talking about at first "Finding a scum d1 will be easy! All you have to do is be confident!" - makes absolutely no sense to me Oh, that easy is it? AND a FOS just because "he's not confident"? Yeah. I want answers when people say they aren't confident in finding scum d1. I hate that attitude. It's an attitude that sets people up to fail. Do you know anything about psychology and how a positive mindset can affect performance? Let me tell you, it works wonders. Also, by saying "we probably won't lynch scum d1", you set a tone for the rest of the players of not caring for pushing reads too much and being satisfied with lynching lurkers. This gives mafia a veil to hide under for d1, making it drastically harder to catch them. Oh, that easy is it? Now, the one thing I can't really wrap my head around is if both debears and djo are mafia, why would they be pushing this confidence thing to help save a lurker? Reasons that make sense to me: 1. Maybe that's the plan. 1 of the mafia sit back and lurk (maybe they're new and scared, or some other reason) while debears and djo stay really active. If they can look town enough AND prevent a lurker lynch, perfect! 2. Maybe getting people hyped for a d1 lynch that isn't a lurker is a good strategy? If they can get town to lynch another town, that's even better than a pure lurker, because then on the next day we'll be going "HMM that guy's still lurking, we've got to do something about that." (assuming multiple lurkers, at which point mafia lurker comes out of hiding a bit, or likely at the end of d1 before we start to think about this) Ok, off to respond to debear's "case" against me. I'm going to have to stay fairly inactive throughout the day until tonight though, as per the reasons I stated previously (work work...) Ok. So Rad now thinks Djo and I are a scumteam Ok boys. This is bullshit. Let me explain why 1) This is an association case. They are dogshit d1 without any information 2) This is a case built on WIFOM. How in the fuck do you know what scum would or wouldn't do? You can't think like that. Djo did that shit last game to me and it pissed me the fuck off. I never said we are lynching a non lurker no matter what. I want to push cases, and if we have something good, then we lynch that person. Lurkers are a last resort. There are most likely 3 mafia. A lynch wasted on a lurker is suboptimal as town if there are people posting some really scummy things. Right now, you are scummy as shit. And this post by you doesn't help. I'm pissed when someone tries to build a pure WIFOM case, which you have done, let alone a WIFOM ASSOCIATION CASE EARLY D1. This guy be scum yo | ||
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debears
United States2516 Posts
On October 26 2012 00:46 sylverfyre wrote: Yes, I am trying to get people to talk about roles without doing something as ridiculous as asking for a D1 mass claim. Also I am trying to get to know the other players in general. No, No. No. No. No. Talking about roles is stupid. It gives the mafia stuff to go on when looking for nk candidates. DON'T DO IT. | ||
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debears
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Do you see what I mean? | ||
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On October 26 2012 00:38 Djodref wrote: @debears I believe it would make mafia uncomfortable, no matter if it is easy to answer or not. I don't think it's too easy because I've also asked him another relevant question with this one. I was also interested to see who was going to pick it up. I'm expecting town players to read the thread more carefully than mafia players (I didn't even read twice the thread in the Looney Lynching game even if I was pretending to do so) and to jump on this kind of thing. Hold on there, Tex. What are you referring to in that statement? The "town" comment to daud or the "are you mafia one? | ||
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debears
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Right now, since we are going in circles, I am going to drop the confidence issue after I address your bold points. "What does your previous confidence have to do with any potential scenario for a d1 lynch" I've said this previously I'm pretty sure. A successful d1 scum lynch is caused by pushing reads based on nothing, which requires confidence. If you don't understand, I don't know how to explain it to you. "I've been scumhunting both you and djo. The fact that you point out that I've just been scumhunting you seems very suspicious of you. That's a clear lie. All you have to do is read my previous posts and see that I was putting the exact same pressure on djo. In fact, in my mind, you both seemed like you were working together, which suggested you were both mafia to me. The fact that this is your final point should scream to everyone that you are BS because I absolutely, 100%, clearly was going after djo as well (and for the same "confidence" thing)." Are you scumhunting us because we are scummy individually, or because you think we are a scumteam? | ||
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debears
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I'm going to reread the thread a couple of times tonight and figure this all out. ##Unvote | ||
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##unvote | ||
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On October 26 2012 01:10 Clarity_nl wrote: @debears You've used the word confidence an excessive amount of times. When someone mentioned day 1 policy lynches you immediately dismissed the idea. In fact, whenever anyone suggested something you turned it down, pushing your idea of "if you have a read, push it hard" Policy lynching on day 1 exists for a reason. Lurkers hurt the town, whether they are mafia or town. If no one takes action mafia will win. Town needs to be organized and decisive, yet you are suggesting to basically follow your gut and push hard. You follow that up by voting for Rad WAAAAAAY too early in the day. You are advocating chaos. If something is fishy, or a comment seems off, make a read or ask a question about it, but big bold statements like "be confident guys!!!" don't actually mean anything. ##FoS debears Do you see the contradiction in that statment clarity/ You want town to be decisive, yet when I am (by pursuing a scumread) you FOS me for it? Are you reading the damn thread? The confidence thing isn't my only contribution. Figure it out Ugh Djo Y u answering questions addressed to me??? | ||
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Where are you/????????? Your involvement in this game is drastically different than last. | ||
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debears
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Ah alright. One more question. Are 1,2 and 3 necessarily only mafia motivated? I don't see it. 1) Town - Create an ideal town atmosphere Mafia - Appear to be a town doing so 2) Town - Try to lead the town by being a figure who knows what he's doing Mafia - Try to be town doing that 3) Town - Confirmation Bias Mafia - Mafia Bias???? (lol idk what to call it) I'm going to reread the thread tonight. I do feel that it my case has confirmation bias at this point. No one has tried to actually break up the argument or put any real input into it. Mafia tend to love letting two townies go at it and not interfering. I'll reconsider my judgment | ||
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debears
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In response to this rad On October 26 2012 01:28 Rad wrote: This is some of what I've got from you and/or djo 1. Pushed the confidence theme hard, as if to make it seem like we NEED to have a scum lynch d1 rather than a policy lurker lynch. 2. Acted overconfident as if it was easy to make a scum read on d1 (is it? doesn't seem like it, and that's not due to lack of confidence, it's due to lack of information). 3. Twisted people's statements, either responding with something that had nothing to do with the original statement, or focusing heavily on a particular statement as if to give it more importance than it really should have. All of these things feel scummy to me. | ||
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debears
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We'll see what a reread or two of the thread brings | ||
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Defending Me/Town read on me Here Djo restates an answer that I had already posted to a question addressed to me On October 25 2012 13:18 Djodref wrote: @Rad Debears solved us the game last time (NMM XVIII) with his case on SDM, the last mafia player we had to find. He was going to be mislynched but he didn't gave up and was still looking for the last mafia while he had everyone against him. It's important to believe in your ability to find the mafia. If not, you are just going to look desperate if people start a bandwagon against you. Also it is going to reduce your tendency to sheep and I think that sheeping happens a lot in the newbie games although it is really bad for town. Why is Djo defending me at this point? There is no way he can have a town read on me at that point, unless he is scum and he knows I'm town. Think about it 1) Town do not know who is scum. Since they don't know who is, they won't know if they are defending a scum early game 2) He feels the urge to jump to my defense way early in the game when I am answering the questions myself 2) He is restating what I had already said. I had already mentioned the SDM case from last game. Yet, he feels the need to bring it up again to defend me. Later, Clarity makes a post accusing me On October 26 2012 01:21 Djodref wrote: @Clarity I don't think that debears is advocating chaos. In my point of view, he is certainly promoting discussion. We could as well being still discussing policy lynches if he wasn't here. And please remind that it's quite easy for mafia to avoid a policy lynch. By the way, do you believe that we can lynch a scum on D1 ? What do you think of Inig ? Djo once agains heads to my defense. Note that Djo has not stated anywhere yet that he has a town read on me. Finally, he defends me in his 2 next posts with a somewhat townie read On October 26 2012 01:27 Djodref wrote: Guys, please remind that people who are taking strong stances (or weird stances like Roco) stand out. Mafia players usually don't want to stand out. Right now, I'm not very worried about a scum debears or a scum Rad. I would be more worried about a scum Inig for expample. The kind of players who are in the thread without really participating, if you know what I mean... Not worried about me being scum = at least a null read on me. The next post. On October 26 2012 01:31 Djodref wrote: I'm still feeling bad for tunneling until death last game I even didn't have the balls to state that I had changed my mind about you at the end. As I feel some townie vibes from you in this game, I thought I could at least defend you this one time. debears <3 Now, he finally states he has "townie vibes", yet he has been defending me since well early on. And then he backs his defense of me as retribution for last game. Defending himself for no reason with bad reasoning? That's scummy. Now, see what happens to the town read he has at this point been 1) exemplifying thru his defense of me and 2) by the last two posts I quoted. On October 26 2012 01:57 Djodref wrote: @Rad Last game newbie game I was totally wrong with all my reads. But I'm not going to let it affect my faith in my ability to find scum. Moreover, even if I'm wrong, I'm giving mafia less room to hide if I take strong a clear stances about some players. I don't have strong scumread at the moment but I would prefer to confront people in a very direct way if I start to be suspicious of them. Because that's how I think I can generate the most useful information. It seems natural for you but it wasn't at all in my previous newbie game, so I want to encourage people to have this state of mind. This is all I'm thinking about when I'm talking about confidence (so it's not exactly confidence in your reads). On a side note, if you have understood that I've called debears town, I think you have misinterpreted my post. Feeling townie vibes from someone doesn't mean I consider him as town. It's a feeling I have from I read in his post (similar to the last game we have played together where he was townie) and his general behavior in his game. Believe or not, being aggressive like this early game benefits town. Because it allows us to have constructed discussion... "Feeling townie vibes from someone doesn't mean I consider him as town". What does this mean??????? So I'm townie to you but not at the same time? This is a weak statement that is a contradiction in a mafia-oriented way to his play. By saying that I have townie vibes but am not town is keeping a door open for suddenly accusing me later. Who wants to keep an open door for sudden accusation on any person in the game? Mafia. A Quick turn in opinion on Rad Before my Rad case, here's what Djo had to say On October 25 2012 15:48 Djodref wrote: @debears I've re-read the thread and I think that dandel and Rad are strong supporters of policy lynches for lurking. It's not a scumtell for me. I understand that you could be strongly against policy lynches given our experience ^^ The problem I see with this is people getting lazy and rely on a policy lynch for today. That's why I personally think it would be better to bring up the possibility for a policy lynch when we can tell for sure that lurking is plaguing us. This is his very next post On October 25 2012 17:20 Djodref wrote: Nice case, I need to discuss a little more with rad before voting him. So now, he suddenly thinks that Rad's stance on policy is a scum tell? He doesn't cite any parts of my case. Yet, he is thinking about voting Rad. Note - "I need to discuss a little more with rad before voting him" implies that he found scumminess in Rad enough to think of voting Rad. And guess what? He doesn't really talk to Rad. He goes off on Ini and Roco while talking to Dauoud. Instead, he posts this later On October 26 2012 01:01 Djodref wrote: @sylver I've explained why I've answered this question ("are you mafia") already. Could you please re-read my filter and tell me if you are satisfied or not with my explanations ? I don't care if I look clean or not, my principal concern is to find the mafia. And, for your information, I'm not tunneling you, just putting you under some pressure. The only player I have a FoS on is Inig as for now. I'm accepting your explanations and I would like you to tell us what you think about Inig. I'm insisting on him because mafia players have this tendency to semi-lurk while looking like they contribute. Regarding Rad, I'm trusting debears to take care of him right now ^^ I'm following their exchanges with great interest. He's "trusting me to take care of Rad". Wow. Why the disinterest in pursuing him? Why is he willing to lay back and let me take the reins on accusing him? Why would a townie want another townie to "take care of" pursuing someone? Scum, on the other hand, want townies to do the dirty work for them. Another thing - the word trust implies that Djo thinks or knows I'm town. The Scumslip On October 25 2012 18:25 Djodref wrote: daoud Good ! I'm not planning on defending you this game so I expect you to do your job as town What's your take on the Rad-debears argument by the way? Note how different his approach to Dauod is to me? He willingly defends me, yet doesn't want to defend dauod. Why? Here he implies that Dauod is town early in the game. He plays it off as bad word choice, yet there are other things in his filter that imply extra information. Notably, the stuff I mentioned before on his actions which indicate that he thinks/knows I'm town despite him claiming that he doesn't think I'm town. FOS Djo Djo, what do you have to say. Most importantly on the subject of your actions which indicate that you think/know i'm town yet you saying that you don't think I am | ||
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Do you believe that Inig fits the category of lurker? His filter is less than a page. On October 26 2012 10:15 Djodref wrote: Honestly, I don't really care if Alsn has a FoS on me if it is for the reasons he has stated in his post. I know he is totally able to come at me with something more consistent if he really thinks I'm scum. Right now, I think his reasons are poor and I'm more interested in his opinion about Ini. Djo, why would Alsn be able to come up with something consistent if he thought you were scum? This sounds like scum with a guilty conscience. Scum know they are guilty. Their posts are made with the intention to mislead town, meaning that they know that traces of their deception are in their own posts. If you were townie, you would feel that your filter is not filled with scummy things, since you would be honest and sincere. This post definitely does not give that read of honesty. | ||
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debears
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Yeah, his recent activity is coming off scummy as is his early play as shown in my case. Let's hear what he has to say. | ||
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The line before that you mention "I don't care if Alsn has a FOS on me". I don't read scummy in that line. A town is just as likely to say that as scum | ||
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On the point of djos "townie vibes". Why would he defend me if he thought i wasnt town, which he stated after he stated he had townie vibes on me? @rad I knew you were including that part . I still don't see that part as necessarily scummy. A townie could say that he doesnt care because he honestly doesn't care about a fos. A scum has a pretty equal chance of saying the same. | ||
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debears
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@Inig Get in here and discuss Djo's case on you | ||
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@Kush Welcome! I'll read over your case on dauod and look at his filter. Also, I would like your thoughts on my case and Rad's case on Djo. Right now, I see two scumslips by Djo (read the case). Also, Djo is a player that I believe if fully capable of being active as scum. The cases are both around the modkill time for Clarity. @Alsn and Slyverfyre While I agree that Djo is suspicious, what I find alarming is how neither of you mention the cases that Rad and I laid out on him. Your reasoning seems weak at a first glance. I will reread though and see if I'm missing something. Meanwhile, look over the cases on Djo by me and rad. @Djo I have some thoughts on Alsn and Inig right now, as well as some things I need to talk about with you on my case on you. Give me a little bit and I'll have it posted | ||
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debears
United States2516 Posts
On Alsn The main part of Alsn's case is his meta and his FOS on you. In terms of meta, Alsn has not been fitting his activity and involvement of the last game when he was town. However, he has stated suitable IRL reasons and has recently picked up his activity level with his active discussion with others. Right now, his meta is a null tell. Then, with the FOS. I believe his FOS was suitable. He was wishy washy quite a bit last game. It seems to me more indicative of his looking at both sides of the motivation behind posts. Alsn is a null read right now. I expect him to pick up his activity level day 2. If he doesn't, then we can do something about it. Lynching him today is a poor option. | ||
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debears
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That's fine. I just want content and input on big cases from anyone. You seem to be skipping out on sections of the thread which are vital to the game | ||
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Town/Scum reads On October 26 2012 08:34 Inigmaticalism wrote: Right now I dont have any scum reads, only town reads which Ive already said in earlier posts. So I would lynch one of the lurkers probably. Also, Djo you seem to be the only one really going after me, so while your asking everyone what they think of me, you should answer your own question. what you you think of me? -Should be back to post something in around 6-7 hours. Posts like this alarm me. Scum usually have a harder time making scumreads since they can't be. Also, he says he would rather lynch a lurker when there is plenty of time to keep scumhunting. I don't get why he would be ready to say that already. Speading Suspicion + Show Spoiler + On October 26 2012 16:17 Inigmaticalism wrote: Alright here we go. 1. I deny nothing about not scum hunting. I have only had time to read the thread, and have found town looking players: debears, rad, djo(tho im not sure anymore, more on that later). As I said, I will have time in a few days to do proper scum hunting. If you feel that is not a risk worth taking, so be it. Ill give my scum hunting/reading in my next post. -And, if your going to pull out reasons to lynch me based not on what I have done, but what I havent done, then perhaps you should also look at Oats and Imcasey who havent scumhunted OR contributed (or at least tried) Or posted at all. 2. Ha I am anything BUT emotionally detached from this game. In fact, Ive been getting so emotional I dont think I can or should play mafia games and just go back to watching/reading them. All the logical things I want to say and rules I want to follow fly out the window, and its dumb. Here is Mr cheesecake calling me out on it: I actually almost rage-quit and threw out on-purpose made-up scumslips and such, so I just got to working on homework and stepped away. Im not sure why you said im emotionally detached. Very odd. But you are right about spectating. In the particular post you quoted of mine, I was attempting to get Rad and Debears to drop their argument because it had shown me they were town and should therefore work together. Course they ignored me and kept on arguing policies and confidences and whatnot. So your accusation is false, unless you leave off the word 'emotional'. 3. Gaining town credit. I am going to split this definition so I can understand what you mean. I put that there originally to be a flag that I was town, for ppl to pick up on. Then cause no one got it or was simply silent about it, I used it as a defense, and then it became a WIFOM, or so im told. I understand a little better how WIFOM works cause I didnt know before (ironically it was you Djo who told me so) but Im probably still going to mess that up again in the future. So ya I used a WIFOM argument. I originally wanted (before the wifom) to gain town 'status' by showing I was town. Now town credit would certainly come by that. I see town credit as town standing, as in how much people listen to you. I actually think since you are the first one to bring this up you are a lot more interested in it. You can believe I was trying to get town credit all you want, but what would I use it for? What cases do I have to push? None. Even if I did get town credit, it would have been of no use to me, and it still isnt of any use to me now. And to put it out there in case I wasnt clear, I am a Vanilla Townie. "Ya, sure, everyones a town, etc". I know I wouldnt believe the claim I just made up front either. Im just letting you know Im not gonna come out with some crazy blue claim or cry for medic support later on. No tricks here. Last, I found a some fun information on Djo: Which means that Djo is voting because he thinks I am a semi-lurker, not because I am scum. He does however clarify better here: So then he does say he thinks I am scum. So all I really want you to clarify Djo is whether you think I am actually scum, or am just the scummiest looking semi-lurker. If its the latter, based on what youve said at the beginning of the game that doesnt fit you. I would want to have more solid proof of scum. Although it is day 1 so.... I would label Djo as like 70% town. Hes been consistent and contributing. I think hes gone after me too long to be mafia. He has talked an awful lot though. Its probably more likely, with all his questions and style of scumhunting, thats hes a vigi or SK or something like that, seeing who he can get lynched (who he thinks is scum if hes vigi, etc), and then who he cant hes found his night targets. Just a thought. Fun facts: -Djo labeled me and Dandel as scumteam in pre-game *Personally with all his questions I think Djo is trying to get all his friends to tell him about me cause he secretly wants to date me So Inig says Djo is 70% town, but in the same sentence Inig brings up a possible SK or vig read, stating that Djo thinks Djo is just "seeing who he can get lynched". First, vigs don't do that, nor any townie for that matter. Scum do that. How does he give a town read, then a vig or SK read based on this information? Next, he moves onto Cheesecake On October 26 2012 16:35 Inigmaticalism wrote: Also, I now have some suspicion on Cheesecake. I like pretty much every post hes given actually, except this one: Oh ya and look cheese also calls me out about being emotional and freaking out in thread. His arguments good too, although I wish he put in a 'outside mafia influences' reason as well, but thats fine. I actually have found cheese to be more likely town than I said djo was, so this is why I called this out. -This point is not doing anything other than saying he read it. Like my earlier posts, it doesnt really contribute at all, doesnt really push me either except in the most indirect of ways. -The 'Im beginning to get suspicious of" me. Ive re-read my own filter. Cheese you should already be suspicious of me, not beginning to be. Ive barely been pro-town at all. -While those points are fun and are probably included in numerous posts in this game, I call it out because it seems like Cheese is simply trying to look good by joining a case that had potential to go somewhere (and so far has). I think what Im trying to say is that I read it and then after re-reading it I realized it had 0 content, but it looked like it did. No treally a scum-tell, but I guess I saw it because it seemed different than his other posts. A pretty inconclusive post. Spreads some seeds of suspicion without making a real read. Next, is a suspicion corral post from inig + Show Spoiler + On October 26 2012 18:22 Inigmaticalism wrote: If I couldnt lynch any lurkers I really wouldnt want to lynch, but we have to. -Asln has posts (if im right) 3 posts so far. Almost just says 'Im here', but at least he contributes something (FOS at you mostly). I would want to vote for him later simply because he actually said something. -Sylvers interesting because he has tried to be helpful in his own way (role-hunting, player list repost), but once we made him clarify what he was doing hes been silent. Discouraged townie or having a hard time finding fact stuff to post? Really not sure. -Roco has 2 posts and says nothing. Yeah, policy stuff, but really policy stuff can be said at one time and then the player can vote however they really want to vote later. Once again, maybe townie shut down once he voiced his opinion? Cept hes scummier to me since he doesnt say anything. Roco and Asln, post a few more posts! They can be real simple, just give 1 or a few scum-reads and a few reasons/facts to back them up. Its ok if they rip you apart, they did me, its about getting some more info/different insight out there for town. -Dandel may be my biggest strong scum read. Its funny, most people go after those who post lots and those who post little, not those who post a decent amount(cheesecake, dandel) or not at all(oats, imcasey). Hes been fairly active, pushing different discussions here and there, nothing too major, thats what Ive been doing. Then he takes up a case against Roco, and not only is Roco probably the easiest target to target, but he doesnt even get real serious about it. He FOS to make it LOOk strong, but explains why hes being soft about it here: He also says how hes not going to let Roco slide, and thats exactly what hes done. Not one mention of Roco in the few posts hes made after that. And he seems to talk to all the semi-lurkers and Djo. Not sure if thats anything important, but Ill keep it in mind. THEN he tries to start EVEN MORE policy discussion, again, in my own words, "stupid (because I was frustrated) and pointless." Contributing to killing time rather than scum-hunting. No attempt to explain why not either, just getting everyones policy straight is "important": Like I said, because you can simply change your stance and have wonderful excuses like "of course Id lynch scum over my policy, duh" or whatever, its wasted time. Not only does it look like its a pro-town move, but I would think mafia would benefit more from town knowing how people were going to vote. Swing lynches easier. (And that BETTER NOT be wifom. Cause I think its a darn good idea). - I am most willing to Vote for Dandel, and if I have any time for more scumhunting, it will be on you dan. Please feel free to reply to this so I can think about what to do before lynch-time. -Mr. CC I like his style a lot, and have thought he was very townie. However, I need to actually read what hes said just like I just did to dandel to see if its content or fluff, but I REALLY need to sleep, so I cant. One of you lurkers (or someone), take up this job while Im lurking between now and lynch-time. Otherwise Ill get to it Day2 if Im still alive. The only thing against him is the post I made a few posts up about him giving me a seriously stern 'look', where its almost like he defends and attacks me at the same time. So....interesting. -Da0ud is somewhere among my roco dandel alsn (discounting no posters) list, but I honestly have no idea what hes said, and without knowing this knowledge I would be uncomfortable voting for him right now. -And that leaves the rest of you Ive made the risky leap of faith to label as townies for now: Djo, rad, debears, and Mr CC depending on what he says and when I read all his stuff. [red]I am very hesitant to do this, but I think I will have plenty of time to change my vote. I would vote for you right now Dandel, and will do so at the end of the day if you fail to answer any of my questions, but while we wait for your responses I want to poke for more information. ##Vote: imcasey Tell me why I should not vote for you. Notice the intro, puts suspicion on Alsn, Sylvers, Roco, and Dandel. What is the point of that??? He only pursues Dandel. Oh, and then after making a case on dandel, and saying dandel is the scummiest so far, he votes imcasey, who he failed to mention in the intro........Very very odd. Also, if he wants dandel to truly answer his questions, why wouldn't he just vote dandel, who hasn't been under pressure up to this point. Most of all, is his "I would vote you right now" hidden at the bottom of a long post right before a vote on another player? It seems like he is trying to get his case ignored so he doesn't have to explain/argue it to Dandel. A Possible Scumslip On October 26 2012 16:43 Inigmaticalism wrote: Oh ok ya, so then your 3rd argument is correct. My thoughts were : [red]"If I was not able to find or given strong scum reads, next best thing is try to build up the confirmed town." I thought that was good, is it bad? Or just how I went about trying? Who is the confirmed town? As I see it, not a single one of us is. This statement heavily implies that he knows who the townies are, "the confirmed town". Ok....for some reason my post refused to format red and double spaced half the damn thing. I did what I could to edit it lol. FOS Inig | ||
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On October 27 2012 01:34 kushm4sta wrote: @debears Djo does look scummy just from my first read through. I need to consider his case in more depth (planning on doing that after d1). I'm not sure he is a viable d1 lynch though. This is because 1 he is active, 2 he is trying to change his meta. There is a lot of uncertainty regarding him. @djodref I didn't ask you for town reads. I asked you for scum reads. You soft defend sylver in the wishy washiest way possible ("he had some nice reactions") then you give him as your biggest scumread. Stop overdefending yourself. Start being helpful. Kush I haven't looked at your Dauod case yet. I am still going to consider Djo for the fact that I see the inference that he has extra information and that he is capable of roleplaying very well (the noobie card in his two games). I think he's fully capable of acting. However, I do see your point on his activity. If he is scum, it will most likely show day 2. What do you think of my thoughts on Inig? @Djo The post about your defense I mentioned earlier should be coming here in a while | ||
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About the previous case. I believe this was the most important part and you didn't really address it "Feeling townie vibes from someone doesn't mean I consider him as town". What does this mean??????? So I'm townie to you but not at the same time? This is a weak statement that is a contradiction in a mafia-oriented way to his play. By saying that I have townie vibes but am not town is keeping a door open for suddenly accusing me later. Who wants to keep an open door for sudden accusation on any person in the game? Mafia." Also, why were you so adamant to say that you didn't think I was town, when you have recently stated that you pretty much did ("townie vibes") and most definitely acted like it? If you were town, I feel that you would stick by your read instead of flip flopping when someone gets on you about it | ||
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I'm gonna lay down my vote right now in case i don't get back in time ##Vote Inig For the reasons i posted in my case on him. Right now, i am willing to keep djo around based on his activity. If he is scum it will show Hopefully ill be back before the lynch | ||
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Something I want to comment on with Inig's vote On October 27 2012 05:50 Rad wrote: Inig, you not voting da0uds is super interesting to me. I feel like your safest vote to stay alive is da0uds. If you want to stay alive, you vote him. Alternatively though, you may know that and realize if you vote da0uds you look bad. Here are some interesting things about Inig: 1. He claimed vanilla townie in the past. 2. He was forced to make a vote here and he did not choose da0uds. Instead he chose Dan. Dan currently has no chance of being lynched today unless something crazy comes up, so the vote on Dan was worthless. 3. If he is indeed vanilla townie, and he does not quite trust his current reads on da0ud and dan, it would be the best town play to a) keep himself alive if possible (change vote from imcasey) and b) let others who are more well informed make the more educated vote. Voting for da0uds when he's really uncertain is just taking a chance, and da0uds is currently in second place to be lynched today, so there's a lot of pressure on Inig's vote (if he's town). I had a null read on him before but it was extremely confusing one way or the other. With this I'm leaning townie for Inig. Anyone want to jump in and help analyze his decision here? I'm open to whatever thoughts people have and please help me if I'm making a WIFOM argument here. His vote on Dandel MAKES NO SENSE AS TOWN 1) The only person a townie knows is town is themself. Thus, if Inig is town, he could not know if Dauod is town. 2) A townie's job is to survive in a lynch when that townie does not know the other person is town 3) Since Inig clearly could not know if Dauod is town if Inig is town, then why would Inig not fight to survive. Townies should fight when they are about to be lynched, even if that means voting for an opponent who they are not sure about when the vote is close. They know that, if they can avoid being lynched, that is necessarily one more townie staying alive. Inig is wasting a vote on someone who is not getting lynched today unless something drastic happens. When someone does something that makes no sense as town, they are almost certainly scum, regardless of how much sense that action makes as scum. | ||
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On October 27 2012 00:30 kushm4sta wrote: Hi guys I read the thread (not super close towards the end though because I wanted to finish). I think we should lynch Daoud. He is posting just enough to be considered not a lurker. This level of activity is exactly what you want to lynch d1. He catches Djo in the classic "scumslip," which does not always indicate scum, but that's not important. "Why did you call me town djo?" Then he says oh there might be a sk I guess my point is invalid. Makes no sense. Bringing it up in the first place is a null tell, because it's an easy catch. But dropping it for such a stupid reason, that is scummy. This is his most significant post so far: So he gives off some town reads. Djo is 90% town... what the fuck. I don't see how you can think that after playing last game with him. Asking open questions makes him 90% town? ok This is such a weird time to talk about lurkers, unless he is giving that as his reason for voting Ini, but Ini isn't even close to the biggest lurker. So why is he voting for ini? 2 words: "Blending in." Sick case bro. ##vote da0ud I need some clarity on this case. It's based off 1) He's a Semi-lurker 2) He is giving off pretty much only town reads (including the percentage ones) 3) Generally blending into the thread 4) A difference in posting styles in his meta on point 4) do you have specific posts that illustrate the difference? Also, I'd say that Inig has done similarly in points 1-3 | ||
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I see what you mean that it's possible. Still, I would think that your first instinct, as any alignment, is to survive. And the fact that he said he wanted to lynch Dandel earlier but then parked his voted on imcasey at the end of his own dandel case just isn't right. | ||
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On October 27 2012 07:35 kushm4sta wrote: @debears I did post quotes from daoud last game. The case isn't Omg great but there's not a lot to go off of and I think he is out best option. Inig has contributed wayyy more. This is clear by sumply comparing their filters. I don't get your point about the survival instinct. Scum have a stronger survival instinct than town. So unless daoud is scum, it seems like it makes more sense for him to vote daoud if he's scum. Sure inig has posted more. But what about his content? Not much at all And my argument is that a townie would almost necessarily vote to survive to help the town if they don't know the other candidates alignment. We can argue this later when we are both out of the game if you don't see it. | ||
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Wth? You now find inig scummy again? | ||
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On October 27 2012 07:57 Djodref wrote: I'm not really comfortable with any of the lynches... I'll say Ini right now because of the emotional part. He has been saying and now "I don't mind to be lynched" it doesn't add up... Rad this is what I'm talking about | ||
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On October 27 2012 08:20 Mr. Cheesecake wrote: Okay I just got back, and will be here pre and post lynch. My thoughts on the current state of affairs. It seems the lynch is in favor of Inig, but Da0ud following close behind. My vote on Djo is obviously not doing any good. I still consider him suspicious, and he is by no means off the hook. My efforts right now are better spent deciding who is a better lynch candidate: Da0ud or Inig. On Inig: Honestly, I have no idea why people suddenly started piling on top of him. I found him -slightly- suspicious after his emotional outburst and semi-lurking. However, since then he has been asking questions (to myself included) and improving his post count. The cases against him are weak, imo. I've read through them I don't see much of a reason to lynch him. His vote on Imcasey I don't view as scum-intentioned; it was an attempt to draw out the lurker. I don't think scum would be that bold, because a vote like that would (and surely did) draw attention. That is not at all blending in. His recent vote on Dandel, however, doesn't make sense from any role viewpoint I think, so I don't know what to think about that. I'll be reading more into his posts about Dandel later. On Da0ud: I skimmed through the cases concerning him, and by my own standards think he is more scummy-looking than Inig. In particular, this post about the modkill. We all saw the modkill. This isn't contributing anything. Why talk about it? A townie died, there's nothing we can do about it, especially since he basically suicided. This is a useless topic. Then, there is the entire percentage-based town read on Djo. I believe Kush mentioned this. 90% town on the first day? I most surely don't see it that way, and a 90% town read based on little concrete evidence? I don't get it. In addition, he's a semi-lurker / blending in. There is also an entire meta-arguement against him as well. I cannot address this as I know nothing of his previous game meta. This being said, I find Da0ud to be much more scummier than Inig. ##Vote: Da0ud I apologize for not being here sooner and for this post being somewhat rushed; I had a personal matter to attend to that required my immediate assistance. Really? The cases against inig are bad? When have you even addressed the inig cases? And how are the cases weak when you're accusing dauod of the same? | ||
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On inig http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=16694076 | ||
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And the same points on inig and dauod. 1) semi lurker 2) town reads/ percent town reads 3) generally blending in Give me | ||
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He also called djo town while also calling him sk. Voting imcasy for no reason at the end of a case on dandel. How much does there have to be for you to see it? You even called your case not that strong | ||
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Reread that statement inig made. Notice how he says djo is more likelh sk? Where does that clme from? | ||
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We lynch the fucking jailkeeper, and all I see is "he should of claimed" and "hrm". What the hell? This isn't suspicious as hell. Inig was at the top of the vote column and then suddenly this dauod lynch gains momentum for reasons that differed slightly from Inig's case? Not only that, he wasn't there to defend himself and NO ONE ELSE WAS DEFENDING HIM FFS. How is that not a sign of town???? WHY THE FUCK WOULD MAFIA BUS SOMEONE LIKE HIM WHEN INIG WAS THE LEADING VOTE GETTER. Is it not telling how suddenly momentum on Dauod came about? Inig comes in and says some stuff and everyone goes "oh he's noob town obviously". Just awesome. double FOS Inig I'm going to fucking cool off so I don't shoot myself. I'll look over the thead and figure this out FOS anyone who voted for Inig | ||
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If you want a meta read on me, do it yourself......... You were in both of my last two games, unlike anyone else here. Vote analysis coming up soon | ||
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+ Show Spoiler + Djo 2. CC 6. Alsn ----UV 10 Inig 1. Djo---- UV 9 4. Dandel 7. Dau0d 12. Me 13. Rad ----UV 17 Dau0d 8. Kush 11. Alsn 16. Sylverfyre 19. Cheesecake 20. Rad 22. Inig 23. Djo Roco69 5. Sylverfyre imcasey 3, Inig Dandel 15. Inig ----UV 21 The above chart has numbers to indicate the order of vote/uv actions The most important votes, in my opinion, are numbers 8, 9, 15, 16, and 19 8 - kush comes in as replacement. Makes only one read despite being a replacement and sticks with it (I feel that replacements as town would post thoughts on more than 1 player. They have a lot more leniency since they have an outside perspective and they have to catch up) 9 - Djo unvotes Inig, who was leading the vote by 3-1 until the unvote. This was the start of the swing to Dau0d. Also, Djo flip flopped from Inig = scummy, then town, then suspicious 15 - Inig's vote on Dandel. It was his second vote parked on someone uselessly. It made no sense from a town perspective 16 - Sylver votes Dau0d. until this vote, Inig was leading voting 4-2. This vote put the swing in reach 19 - CheeseCake votes Dau0d. This vote made the lynch count 4-3, making Dau0d the leading vote getter Right now, these are the most suspicious votes I will pursue. | ||
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Seeing as you came in as a replacement. Did you have any other reads besides Dau0d? | ||
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I'll address your actions after I address Kush's. Something that hasn't been pointed out about him yet that's very odd. Anyways @Everyone Association cases are worthless until a flip. Even in the lategame, without a flip they aren't the greatest. Stop it | ||
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in regards to kush on associations | ||
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First, he presents meta as part of his case on Dau0d On October 27 2012 00:42 kushm4sta wrote: More on daoud: He seems much more careful about what he says this game than last game. Last games his posts were like WTF is this weird guy talking about. This game they look like he doesn't want to catch anyone's attention. Why we shouldn't lynch djodref today: He does look pretty scummy. But I don't see how anyone can have a lot of certainty in that read. Combination of high activity and low certainty means he should not lynch him. Also realize that djodref is in a position where he NEEDS to evolve his meta whether he is town or scum. His first game he played as a noob, understandable because it was his first game. His second game, he pretended to be a noob as a scum strat. I think showing that he is better than the newb he pretended to be last game would be the natural play for town djodref, and also scum djodref trying to appear as town djodref. Djo: who out of the active players seems scummiest to you? Also why did you bring up how you want to lynch a lurker without even trying to pressure your scumreads? In the same post, he defends Djo, stating that Djo is "changing his meta". How do you know that Kush? Also, how do you know that Dau0d wasn't doing the same? Why do you bash Dau0d for a change in meta but not Djo? Kush, did you not notice that, in both, games Djo was 1) a cop and 2) mafia Playing the noob card is a valid strat in both, especially in both of his newbie games. Now, for his use of meta on me. Look at how he wants to spread suspicion on me without actually looking up my meta, when he has played with me in my only 2 games. Why would he want someone else who hasn't played with me before, or only once, take the reins on a meta case? On October 27 2012 10:31 kushm4sta wrote: Is debears like this every game? It's not how I remember him. And yeah debears you basically buttfucked us during the first half of day 1 when you had your little dickmeasuring contest with Rad, which NOTHING came out of. Nothing except spamming the thread to hell and making it unreadable. Also, notice the personal attack on me? You can not deny that activity from Rad came out of it. We have a read on Djo based on it. and we have a read on me based on my d1 exchange with rad. 3 reads. Wow. That seems pretty good to me. On October 27 2012 22:06 kushm4sta wrote: Someone give me a meta read on debears. Is he usually this angry and rambunctious? I don't know his meta but it seems kind of fake to me. And also his little stunt in the pony thread could be something to try to convince people following that thread that he is town. (I actually did this when I got mafia several games ago) Kush, how do you not know my meta, especially my scum meta, after playing with me twice??????? How does it "seem fake" if you don't know it? Why do you not use the excuse that I'm possibly "changing my meta"? Kush is attacking people who he wants to and selectively using meta when it furthers his agenda. That, my friends, is a scumtell. FOS Kush | ||
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On October 27 2012 23:43 Dandel Ion wrote: My case is more than just an association case. How well the association fits in is just a bonus. Compare my "association case" to what Inig tried to pull off. And tell me it's really the same level of badness. What do you mean by that? And it doesn't matter if the association fits. I don't know if either are scum or town. You must eliminate the association from your case until a scumflip | ||
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On October 27 2012 23:57 kushm4sta wrote: I knew the daoud case wasn't that great. But i thought it was better than any other so that's why I voted for it... I said this a million times. People theorizing scumteams are being dumb. There I said it again. And that makes me scum ?? lol It's a well known tenant of forum mafia that you don't theorize scumteams before one of them flips (unless you are at the very end of the game) Agreed. Guys listen to me and Kush on this one | ||
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On October 28 2012 00:02 kushm4sta wrote: I am kind of busy today jacking off and I don't feel liek making cases ATM. I will present my cases before the day post in case I get killed. Also thanks for all your shitty suspicion. I hope it keeps me from getting nk. Wowwowowowowo. Kush mentioning not getting nked again. Did it his last two newbies as scum. | ||
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Also, why would you even bring it up at this point? 1) town - ????? 2) mafia - excuse for not getting nked | ||
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+ Show Spoiler + 1) On October 16 2012 23:09 kushm4sta wrote: Actually I think you would be a fine nk dro :'(  2) On October 17 2012 08:33 kushm4sta wrote: @austin why didn't you get lynched? On October 17 2012 08:34 kushm4sta wrote: i mean nked 3) On October 17 2012 11:15 kushm4sta wrote: HUH? to this whole post. Who gives a shit if there is an S on "night actions"? What is kitaman gonna say? Send your night action? I don't think we can get any information about power roles from stuff mods said. So sandroba is a dangerous scumhunter so the kill should have happened quickly? Not necessarily. Like you say he wasn't hands down the best nk. I think we should assume there are no power roles until we see evidence of one. 3) On October 19 2012 05:47 kushm4sta wrote: To me it seems like a fake claim. We have seen no evidence of a blue role. Obviously it's one that has actions, since he was talking about night actionS, so why has no one claimed any of those actions. The "breadcrumbing" by arguing about NK also seems fake. I still want to lynch until he has some way of corroborating his claim. 4) On October 19 2012 08:02 kushm4sta wrote: I think I'm the nk if austin flips scum but we will see. ------------------- 5) On October 19 2012 20:19 kushm4sta wrote: do not speculate about nk before it happens. potato tells us nothing who is mafia? no clue I think someone should do the legwork to see if Hiro scum is capable of d1 play like that. I will do it when I get time. Ve is notoriously hard to read. The fact that he is a replacement makes it even easier for him to conceal his alignment. Don't even try to read VE IMO. fucking impossible. Also I'm gradually learning that his scumreads are pretty garbage for a vet, so don't trust those either even if you think he is town. @Ve those things you critisized daoud for, can't they ve explained by newbness? --------- 6) On October 20 2012 04:12 kushm4sta wrote: I'm gonna repeat do not discuss the nk until after it happens please. 7) On October 20 2012 04:19 kushm4sta wrote: stfu stfu a million times stfu about nk...wait until it happens 8) On October 20 2012 07:48 kushm4sta wrote: My last post was a lie I told to trick scum. Too bad it was probably too late and too obvious to be effective. If I get nk, then you should lynch thrawn still. If thrawn is scum, they have no reason to kill mmt, since him living spreads suspicion and everyone is willing to lynch thrawn anyway if he dies. 9) On October 21 2012 21:35 kushm4sta wrote: 1der: after we kill thrawn, the last mafia will nk djodref. People left: daoud, you,VE,me. Who do you think is scummiest out od those people right now? Alright guys. This is just 1 of kush's town games, his most recent one. He claims this On October 28 2012 00:07 kushm4sta wrote: I mention NK in town games too. It's a null tell IMO. Alright. Look at the quotes from looney above. Note 1) He never mentions about himself not getting nked for being suspicious 2) How he seems so adamant about not speculating nks as the game went on 3) Most of the time when he mentions nks it's about someone else being nked Thus, we know him mentioning not getting nked is not found in every town game of his Now, let's look at his previous newbies, where he was scum. Notice the similarities to his "won't be nked" post this game NMM XVII On September 18 2012 20:27 kushm4sta wrote: @stutters I want to improve my play because last game I sucked quite hard. anyone can attest to that lol. I also don't want to be the best town because getting nk sucks imo. I like being around for the end of the game. I'm just being honest. but thanks for accusing me because it makes it less likely that ill be nk, since scum usually kill the towniest person. what I said about flame wars.. that is what I did in the last two previous games. for instance drazak accused me really hard and I basically just called him a bad player again and again. I am trying to avoid that this game though. I really hate waking up to people fosing me...feels bad NMM XVIII On September 28 2012 09:40 kushm4sta wrote: thank you now I won't be nk | ||
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On October 28 2012 00:02 kushm4sta wrote: I am kind of busy today jacking off and I don't feel liek making cases ATM. I will present my cases before the day post in case I get killed. Also thanks for all your shitty suspicion. I hope it keeps me from getting nk. | ||
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A mafia agenda now for sure. Look at the damn nk comment | ||
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Yes. Mafia want some form of control of the lynch. By using meta on people who he wants to, he can push for the candidates he wants to without being noticed. The "changing his meta" excuse is bullshit if it doesn't apply to everyone | ||
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What kind of townie has an agenda? You don't know what anyone else is, so how can you plan to lynch people? How can you know who to push for sure? | ||
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@Rad On October 28 2012 08:02 Rad wrote: Ahh yeah, I see. @Kush, why wouldn't debears make a good coach? What was up with these attacks on kush? Kush looked scummy. However, you attacked him for pregame comments for no reason. @Alsn I'll look in depth at your case after this | ||
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Flame fest is anti-town. If you think Alsn's case isn't good, actually argue against his points. Otherwise, your actions so far imply that you think you are guilty and you can't refute his case. ##Vote Dandel This vote is staying put unless you explain yourself and the case of Alsn and do some scumhunting | ||
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@Alsn I can address the points in your case right now, but I want Dandel to defend himself first. | ||
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1) It makes sense 2) If he is SK he cannot nk anymore | ||
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A Second case on Djo Since my first case, Djo hasn't done much to help my read on him. In fact, after rereading his filter again, I'd say my scumread on him is even stronger. Points in the original case/cases 1) Stated and Acted as though he had a town read on me day 1, then denies it when pressured by Rad 2) His two scumslips (slips as he calls them) - Dau0d town comment and the slip when talking about Alsn's fOS 3) Wanting me to "Take care of Rad" day 1 The Day 1 lynch First, I want to point out his indecisiveness and apparent apathy to who he wanted lynched. Djo's first actual pursuit was Inig. He was pressing on Inig pretty well. However, when asked who he would want to lynch, he says Sylver (with his vote on Inig) On October 27 2012 00:51 Djodref wrote: @Kush Debears and Rad are looking quite ok. I'm leaning town for both of them. I'm waiting for Cheese to post what he has to say about me because I'm still null on him. I didn't like some posts from sylver but he had some nice reactions during our latest fight. I need some time to look at dandel. I didn't like the way he voted Inig, but he said he was not sure even. I would say sylver right now... But I've been spending too much time defending myself. I need to calm down and re-read some filters for a while. A couple of posts later, he unvotes and states why he doesn't want to lynch Inig suddenly. On October 27 2012 01:03 Djodref wrote: Regarding an Inig's lynch, I'm not comfortable with it... In my opinion, he had a positive response after my case against him. I doubt that he could be a scum after that. His role claim was looking really sincere. If he can improve his presence in the thread and his scumhunting, I don't want to lynch him. I'm going to unvote him. I would cast my vote on Roco or imcasey if they magically reappear. I'll wake up early tomorrow to see if the bandwagon is still against me or not. If you are town, do not sheep and cast your vote against me. Read my filter and make your own opinion by yourself. You are going to feel some heat if you cast your vote too lightly because I'm going to flip green. I'm sorry but I need some sleep guys ## Unvote That's quite the turnaround after the pressure and vote On October 27 2012 08:20 Djodref wrote: @debears No, I'm not comfortable with any of the lynches to be honest. I'm looking at their filter over and over again and try to find some little clues... Regarding Inig, I should vote him if I was only a rational machine (no scumhunting at the beginning, wishy washy on Cheese, voting imcasey unexpectedly, the slip you have found, etc...) but I feel him as sincere in his posts.a Not sure why he claimed though. Regarding daoud, I have no reasons to vote for him at the exception of his hasty vote. His only reason for not voting Inig was that Inig seemed "sincere". In fact, he said that it would be rational to lynch Inig based on his posting. That one post is a huge contradiction. Notice how during his time, he puts suspicion on Sylver. Also, notice the timing of the unvote. He unvoted when there were other people agreeing with his case. That's really weird combined with the "he's sincere" reasoning on Inig. Djo's approach on Dau0d Despite Djo's suspicions on Inig and Sylver, he ends up voting Dau0d. Why? Lets see On October 27 2012 08:56 Djodref wrote: ## Vote daoud Because his involvement in this game has not been great so far... Not the greatest reasoning. He does provide some reasoning right after though. On October 27 2012 08:56 Mr. Cheesecake wrote: Allow me to ameliorate for you, sir. 1.) Inig was a semi lurker to begin with. As of late, he has been posting more and with greater content. Da0ud, on the other hand, has contributed much less and is still lurking. 2.) Let's look at both of their percentage town reads. Inigs: Da0ud's: Inig has more reason for considering Djo town, and puts it at 70% (leaning town). He says he's been consistent, obviously posting alot, and going after him of all people. He likes this, and even offers some counter-roles that he could be instead of mafia. Da0ud on the other hand only says "hey, he's asking questions, must be 90% (almost definitely town)" I find Da0uds reasons for thinking Djo town less plausible than Inigs, and he almost considers him town. 3.) Inig has been more distinguished in asking questions / contributing. His theory on Dandel is intriguing and unique, and something I may want to follow up on in the future. His vote of imcasey and Dandel is anything BUT blending in. Notice his reasoning. It's literally almost the same for Inig. Yet, he feels that Inig was "more distinguished in asking questions/contributing". I don't get it. Also, he didn't think Dau0d's meta was different than Dau0d's town game when he posted this earlier. On October 27 2012 00:53 Djodref wrote: Regarding daoud, I don't want to lynch him because he has reacted quite fast and naturally to my slip. Him posting some nonsense about the possibility of a SK just after totally fits his meta. He needs to post a lot more though... He flip-flopped onto Dau0d after kush's case while spreading suspicion onto 2 other plays (slyverfyre and Inig). His reasoning for moving his suspicion around was poor at the best. To me, it seems like he didn't care who got lynched Hammering CheeseCake for the Switched Vote This was posted after the lynch On October 27 2012 17:53 Djodref wrote: @ Cheese At this point, were you considering that daoud and Inig were better candidate than me ? You have been suspecting me for quite a long time D1 and you suddenly prefer to lynch daoud because some replacement came in and told you he was scummy ? You alsmost didn't consider him at all until that point yet you have no problem with lynching him instead of your top scumread (which was me) ? I'm pretty surprised that you didn't try to push my lynch. Isn't this similar to what Djo did? Yet Djo is calling him out for it? Djo had no considerations of Dau0d until the kush case was posted. On October 27 2012 23:19 Djodref wrote: "That being said, you were my best scum read at the time; but there was no chance of you being lynched." @ Cheese Here is a quote from you. As you can see, I was a little more than your best scumread. Nevertheless, you gave little to no protest about lynching daoud or ini over me. Big scumtell in my book. Have a look at debears reactions when people started to vote daoud. He was trying to push his case until the end.This commitment is a big towntell. Where was your reaction when you came back to thhe tread and realized that a lynch on me was "not possible" ? No protest, no comments about other people being stupid or whatever, not trying to push my lynch. And you proceeding to compare the percentage daoud and Ini were giving for their townread on me to decide who to lynch between the two... do you have any comments to do on this ? FoS Cheese Yet again, a FOS for hypocritical reasoning. Not only did Djo drop his top scumread for poor reasoning, he voted for Dau0d for poor reasoning. And now he's spreading suspicion on CheeseCake. This post, however, is the kicker On October 27 2012 08:00 Djodref wrote: @ Cheese What the fuck are you doing with your vote still on my back ? Come in the thread and choose who you want to lynch today between daoud and Ini. Tell us your reasons about it ! Djo told him to change his vote in the first place!!!!!!!!!! Then, he tries to accuse Cheese of scum since Cheese did it???? Wow. Meta Djo has little meta to go on with only 2 games. However, there are differences from his town game and scum game. These differences, related to this game, are not damning by any means, but do support that Djo could be scum. 1) Djo is capable of being active as scum. His filter was roughly 9 pgs as scum in Looney 2)His case format this game compared to his other games http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=372945¤tpage=58#1147 - Game as scum http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=374466¤tpage=23#441 - this game Look at the shocking similarities. Now, this could be how he likes to post now, since this is only his 3rd game. However, in looking at his first newbie as cop, no posts have the same format (Correct me if I'm wrong on this Djo) 3) Personality - Djo's personality this game is similar to his other games as cop and mafia. Take out the newbie card play, and he sounds the same in all 3. Thus, his personality is a null tell, but it mean that he can be mafia A Common Fallacy I think this game has fallen into the trap of activity = town. That is not always the case. Take a long hard look at Djo's filter and this case. His filter is huge and it was a bitch to go through. Mafia can hide in a big filter. Djo is my number 2 scum read besides Dandel right now. I still need to see if Dandel even comes back (and defends himself properly + has something to contribute) before I would think of voting Djo. Let me know if you need clarification on anything. Reading Djo's filter + writing out the case = sucks | ||
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Mb cheese. Ok refering to my post before. Remove the quote from Cheese. I gotta relook at Djo's filter about that point since I fucked up :/ | ||
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On October 27 2012 09:00 Djodref wrote: I don't know how daoud came up with this 90% gauge on me. Maybe because of my posting style. If you check my filter last game where I was mafia last game and my filter in this game,I bet that they really look different. Djo voted for Dau0d for literally 2 sentences of reasoning. Wow. | ||
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3 sentences including the quote in my case | ||
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Yes I am considering the lurkers. That includes Roco, Nackht, and Inig However, there isn't much to say on them. They aren't contributing (possibly at threat of modkill). They are not helping weed out scum at all. | ||
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I agree with the nature on Inig's posting. After skimming his filter, I feel like he has been just dropping in with a couple of posts and then leaving without actively discussing matters at hand (I'll check his posts in context later). Do you get the same feel from it? | ||
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That part I don't know.....it's WIFOM. If both were scum 1) Would scum put pressure on their partner? Djo ---> Inig 2) Would scum back out of that pressure when their partner started getting votes? Djo uv Inig. Votes Dau0d If only one was scum Djo (if scum) frames Inig (if town). Then backs off to avoid attention when the case gains momentum? Djo (if town) attacks Inig (if scum). Backs off his vote because he actually believes Inig is town Scum could do that or they couldn't, we simply don't know. Also, notice how Djo did focus on sylver alot also. It wasn't only Inig (it was a majority though) The part that I do know is that both have and do look individually scummy, which imo, is the most important thing. It's a pretty damn good bet that one of them is scum | ||
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have looked and do look individually scummy. I sux at english | ||
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"I found Djo's contradiction about cheeses vote the best piece of evidence there could be" This statment implies that you believe djos scum case is stronger than dandels, yet you vote for dandel Are you voting dandel because you find him scummier than djo or because his case is the only case you have made? Also, your "lynch him before djo bc djo might be sk" idea is invalid. There is no way there is a sk unless its rad. I don't like how you suddenly come from out of nowhere and instantly drop your vote on someone. You arent here for a whole day and automatically know someone is scum when all of us are having difficulty knowing so surely? | ||
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What's your view on what's going on? For our "confirmed" vig we need more help from you | ||
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On October 29 2012 11:11 Inigmaticalism wrote: Its golden. Answer Djo Dandel. Why are you voting who you think is the SK? Its not even in towns win-con. Um. Yeah it is. Now you are making up reasons/blatingly lieing. Game does not end for us until mafia and serial killer(if applicable) are dead. Djo ill look over the early d2 posts | ||
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Are you serious? | ||
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Making up reasons to lynch someome after sheeping on a case | ||
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Saying no one defended you is a null tell. When were you at real threat of lynch d1 when your scumbuddies would have to defend you. Its wifom | ||
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[QUOTE]On October 29 2012 12:11 Dandel Ion wrote: /snip "Hey-guys-we-didn't-do-any-NK-speculations-yet" Djodref: + Show Spoiler + On October 29 2012 10:14 Djodref wrote: Regarding dandel, I've found him very quick to accuse me as a SK at the beginning of D2. I know that he is saying that I'm SK or scum but his posts strongly imply that I'm more SK than scum (he brings thrawn meta in and says I'm more likely to be SK than scum). It makes a lot of sense from a mafia point of view. It's true that I didn't consider the fact that Kush could have been killed by the mafia and that I have found a possible reason for the mafia to have targeted sylverfire quite fast. It was obvious for me that mafia would never had killed Kush because of my experience of the last game. Correct me if I'm wrong but Kush is never NKed by the mafia when he rolls town. Anyway, I should have looked like I had some extra information about the night kills. So, from a mafia point of view, I really should be looking like a SK. I find it very strange that dandel didn't wait that long for a vig to claim. Getting a SK lynched is good for the image I guess so he comes at me very fast with a weird meta argument to support the fact that could be SK. [u]To sum up[u] Scum dandel knows that I'm not going to flip scum. Reacting to an apparent extra information about the NKs from my side, he comes at me very fast saying that I'm SK (not waiting for a claim, backing it up with poor arguments). He doesn't have the time to go through 18 pages of Thrawn's filter. Seriously, it makes so much sense ! Town dandel would have reacted slower to an apparent extra information about the NKs from my side. It doesn't tell if I'm scum or SK (please check Cheese reaction to see the difference). His reaction could have been possible but it makes less sense. ##Unvote ##Vote Dandel You keep implying that I came after you "very fast", but that is a straight up lie. I gave you EASILY enough time to claim. I ask: "Is there something you want to tell us?" You seem to not want to tell us anything out of your own accord, so OVER 10 HOURS LATER, I make my post where I accuse you of being scum/SK. (This could've been avoided if Rad was faster at claiming, but better late than never.) You, Djo, will be happy to hear that I don't think you're the SK anymore, and you went back to being only Scum to me. You somehow arrive at how I "don't have the time to look through thrawn's filter", and I don't even know how you got to that assumption, or how it's relevant at all. But it's now redundant anyways. Honestly though, I probably couldn't point out a single collection of posts and point at it saying "this is where I got my scum/SK read on him", because he didn't have any obvious slips in there. He just posted a metric shitton and I always got a scummy feel off his posts. Which is pretty much what I get from you, only you post things that are slips, or at least look like them to me. Your "case", or post, or however you want to call it, is oddly similar to Alsn's too, in that 50% of it is speculation and WIFOM, which should have no place in there, and which I suspect is there only so that it makes it look like you had anything to actually base your read on. But I haven't seen anything. Oh, and I'm going to say this again, I was pushing for your lynch because you were either scum or SK. The chance of you flipping town are and were incredibly slim in my mind. @ dandel I'm discarding the post you have quoted. I have admitted that I was wrong on the time frame already and I agree that I have said some bullshit in this post. But I don't understand why you don't address my other posts about you, which have much stronger evidence. By the way, you were not pushing my lynch because I was either scum or SK (like Cheese did) but you were pushing my lynch because I was SK or scum. [/QUOTE] Um. What does that last line mean? | ||
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Something is really suspicious here. My 2 top scum reads sheep on a case so hard and argue with bad reasoning (even making up ones) | ||
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Check this out. Guys here's a meta read on town Dandel from a previous game I played with him. Comments on how ridiculous a game could be. Context - I am accusing him hard of lieing and such. Thrawn is also considering him for lynch. Last game On September 22 2012 07:53 Dandel Ion wrote: Oh man this game is so surreal... See you guys tomorrow This game On October 29 2012 12:13 Dandel Ion wrote: And Inig tries to tell people that town doesn't need to lynch SKs... This game, man. I'm going to sleep. Notice the similarities when he's under attack now? He did this when the case on him was false when he was town. Same thing in this game. Now, for his flaming On September 22 2012 20:00 Dandel Ion wrote: I mean the part where he stops being just bad, and starts being a retard. Open his filter and start with this post http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=367548¤tpage=33#641 Shouldn't be too hard to find. So a bad scum I don't know in a newbie game I didn't play in said something about Vigs during the game. Now clearly, the most logical thing for you to do is to jump on me (the "easy target") with a horrible association case that you base off a random guy? Oh wow, if you really think that's scumhunting, then good luck. What are you trying to say here, hmm? That rethos behaved just as Remedy did, but for some reason you think Remedy is town(?) and rethos is scum, or what? It doesn't make sense for you to use this argument, because if you were honest about it, you should have had a town read on rethos too. Double standard much? Please elaborate on why you think Remedy is town, and rethos scum. I'm listening. Well guess what, I don't like it either. But what can I do? I have no fucking idea what he was thinking or doing. I couldn't even ask him, or talk to him. So how the fuck should I defend accusations that have nothing to do with me, that I would find scummy myself, and where I have no idea why he did what he did? Protip: I can't do shit Which is why I want town to talk about something else. But if you want to call it "sweeping under the rug" and keep trapling on a dead guy with no way to defend himself, go on ahead. And it's funny you bold a little part of my sentence and ignore the stuff written in the rest of it. I never told anyone they can't vote for me (like anyone would listen), I only want you to TALK about something different. Even if I was scum, there'd be two more. And when I flip green, you see that you're gonna have to find three more. So I suggest(ed) looking into that. But it seems you are not interested. Why not? Oh wow, way to not read my filter!! Good job! I was already asked (kinda) about this and answered it. It's true, I'm even linking it, otherwise you might not find it in my massive one-page filter! Here! http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=367548¤tpage=38#749 I am putting pressure on him in a way, yes. Because he's being SUPER useless while being "confirmed" town. And that makes me mad. Cause if he keeps that up when Sharrant gets shot (and Sharrant WILL get shot soon, since he's the only mason that actually does ANYTHING), it ain't gonna be pretty. Oh, I know a case exists. But I want you to meditate, find your inner center, and tell me how I should treat the case instead. And stop being hypocritical about me not reading or whatever - I read the thread, I read all the filters. But you yourself seem to have conveniently skipped over some of my posts (in one case even over the sentence you were quoting from), just to rehash some concerns that have already been answered. You even mention the mason thing, which was a stupid misunderstanding that thrawn STILL pointed out AFTER I ALREADY explained it without anyone even asking. Okay, okay, maybe a mistake by him (though scum thrawn is looking more likely by the minute), but WHY do you feel the need to bring that up again? This sentence alone makes me think you're just trying to appear like you're "scumhunting", when you actually don't*. So you call my post "weird" to discredit me. *This is not just about this one sentence, you whole "case" is rehashed garbage you could've answered yourself if you actually read through the thread/my filter to really scumhunt, instead of picking a few posts out of context, ingoring the explainations I already gave, etc. Your only original contribution is the assosiation "case" with Xathalos. And that is so fucking horrible it gives me the worst nightmares (good thing I just woke up) But at least I can give you the good news! Remedy is no longer my top scumread! It's you! You win! Yaaaaay! ##vote debears Disclaimer: I'd still be up for lynching remedy/stutters/insert-lurker-here too. Look at the sarcasm. He calls me a retard cuz he knows he's town and he isn't scummy. Look at his response to Alsn's case this game. This game On October 28 2012 23:06 Dandel Ion wrote: I said I'd tunnel Kush because I find it very hard to get a proper feel-read on him. I hope at this point, I've referenced NMM XXVII enough times, and this too, is a leftover from that game. I basically assumed he was town in that game because his actions would have been absolutely stupid as scum. Lo and behold, he actually was scum. I don't understand how his brain works, so I basically decided I wouldn't give him any benefit of the doubt, concerning anything. But he comes in, plays scummy, and doesn't respond to any of the cases/concerns on him (expect saying they are "bad", nothing else given). Can you honestly tell me you didn't find Kush scummy too? Cause I don't think you can. I did not "only" suspect Djo at all. Yes, I tunneled Kush. I didn't switch to daoud, because, while the post that got him lynched was a huge "wtf" moment, I did not find him more scummy than Inig. Yea, the cases on Inig weren't too strong, but the reasons some people had for voting daoud were even worse. I'll openly disagree with your whole post. From your useless WIFOM you just included so that your post looks bigger/like it had actual content, to the way you excuse everyone that voted daoud (who did you vote for again?), the way you bring up things we've been over already... You used to be decent at mafia, but somehow you got terrible. I think you're not using the Newbie games right, usually you'd try to get better. Notice the sarcasm and calling him dumb? Super the same as his townie self. | ||
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Inig and Djo, my top 2 scumreads. | ||
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2) his flaming like that without an actual defense is anti-town 3) to see who would jump him for 1 and 2, he came back and made an actual case (albeit with bad feelings) He did similar as town when I played with him | ||
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I haven't seen distinct meta differences in play except activity, which he had suitable irl reasons for it | ||
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On October 29 2012 13:28 Rad wrote: I'm curious, does he have any meta examples where he's scum and doing the same thing (or something different)? For Dandel? | ||
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On October 29 2012 13:28 Djodref wrote: @ Rad First of all, I would like to say that I'm a Vanilla Townie so I have nothing to claim to save my ass. Believe me or not, but I'm no SK and I'm no mafia. But it's not relevant for the subject I have to discuss. Considering that 2 blues are already dead and that you have no more bullets, I'm pretty sure that there is only VTs or equivalent right now. We cannot expect any save or vigilante kill. Let's assume that we have an confirmed SK and I think that I was close to be a confirmed SK in dandel's eyes. If town lynches the SK, you end up for sure at 4vs3 on D3. It is the worst lylo situation ever. You need basically to have a confirmed mafia player to expect survive the day, and then you have 2 more lylo at D4 (3vs2) and at D5 (2vs1). Given our current situation (town full of lurkers and newbies), I don't imagine us getting our way out a 4vs3 lylo. If town decides not to lynch the SK, it is possible that we end up in a 3vs3vs1 situation at D3 but it is neither is the interest or town nor in the interest of the SK. We have much more opportunities to get rid of the scum this way (lynch or night kill by the SK). Now, if we compare 4vs3 or 3vs3vs1, I think that the situations are equally bad. The SK has to team up with the town anyway at this point or it is game over for him. I don't know what would happen if we get out a 3vs3vs1 situation because I don't know what the SK would do. Lynching the SK is at best sub-optimal play from town but I tend to think that it is anti-town. And I cannot add enough how it fits a mafia agenda because they are sure to get to lylo instead of risking to lose one of their members. Djo wasn't every one mentioning the SK after the day post and before the Vig claim??? On October 28 2012 09:29 Djodref wrote: I think sylver has been killed for this post I would say mafia was trying to snipe a blue and managed to do it. Regarding Kush death, I would say vig or SK. Both makes sense. But jailkeeper + vig + detective seems imba so I think we have a SK. Even you Djo, even you. Dandel seemed to be discussing a current relevant topic in the thread | ||
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Idk if he has any scum games. I knew his town meta due to playing with him. I'll check | ||
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First, his activity level was 3 filters that game This game? Almost 6. And that's not even through day 2. He's showing a remarkably greater amount of interest in this game than when he was scum Personality In his scum game, Dandel is more amicable (friendly is what that means right?) On August 25 2012 09:07 Dandel Ion wrote: @Lvdr: @Shady: It really seems to me like you are carrying over an existing argument/exchange from another ongoing mafia game. I guess it's pretty hard to do (and coincidentially the reason I won't sign up for multiple games, ever), but please try to seperate this game from the other one. And this post is a case he made. Notice the lack of flaming and sarcasm On August 26 2012 03:52 Dandel Ion wrote: To start things off, responding to lvdr's case: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=361579¤tpage=15#285 This is a flat out lie. I have played a SINGLE game of mafia so far. (not counting the half-day that got restarted) lvdr, shady and mkfuba have all played more games, thrawn just as many. I didn't really push anyone but you yet, since all the "cases" so far were pretty much just screaming "bad newbie" to me, instead of "scum". Then there was you VS Shady, which I consider to have not much to do with this game. Well, since that is the extent of your case, I consider it adressed. Since you all seem to want my reads, here we go. (thoughts on other people coming after this, I'm getting pretty annoyed by the whole OMGOMG I'M WAITING FOR HIS POST, so I just decided to split it up.) WeeTee: The extent of his first ~10 posts was either 1) insulting people, 2) not contributing or 3) both. His last post (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=361579¤tpage=14#266) reads to me like he's just trying to secure a lynch on somebody else, no matter who it is In an earlier post, he FoS'd Alsn for going for the "easy lynch". Behold, just a little later he is doing the SAME thing, to the SAME person. Even though he soft-defended him earlier. The only other thing he has done so far is argue with thrawn. He's not contributing and contradicting his own words. Thus, Weetee is my strongest scum read at the moment Finally, in his scum game. Dandel was MUCH LESS AGGRESSIVE. He even admitted it in the game.. | ||
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On October 29 2012 13:45 Djodref wrote: @ debears I did not say he was not right about the possibility of an SK and I can even understand that he thought I was SK. First point: I'm saying that it is easier for mafia to suspect someone of being SK rather than being scum. Second and main point: it is anti-town and pro-mafia to push a lynch on a SK in this situation. Djo, is it necessarily mafia motivated to do so when 1) it's being actively discussed 2) the sk can be a threat to town (the sk can nk, but how do you know he would correctly target mafia. A SK could end up targeting a townie who he thinks is scum) 3) He thought you had a possibility of being SK or scum Answer me that I see clear townie explanations for what he did by accusing you | ||
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Even if there are mafia explanations, there are townie explanations | ||
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On October 29 2012 13:55 Djodref wrote: @ Cheese Yeah, I agree, it's not very relevant but it should bother you a little. I was just trying to explain why dandel is wrong when he says that Alsn's case is based on WIFOM. By the way, did you find some mafia players ? At the exception of me of course Alsn's case is based off WIFOM. Why you lie? On October 28 2012 22:31 Alsn wrote: Ok, I'm going to preface this by some WIFOM, although I think it's merited in this case. Looking at the situation right now, the only one at risk of lynching seems to be Djodref. More importantly, he seems to be completely alone in his plight. I think he's scummy, but this fact alone leads me to believe that one of the following three options must be true:
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Lying scum | ||
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are you seeing this shit by Djo??? | ||
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How often has Inig been around to actually answer some fucking questions??? He just plops in with his thought out, big posts and leaves. | ||
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Looking at these scenarios, and I'm convinced they're the only ones possible, I find the last one to be extremely unlikely. While myself and others have at times at least questioned whether or not Djod was all that super scummy, no one that I know has ever diverted a hypothetical Djod lynch unless it was done very subtly. In fact, the only argument that I feel can be made that he is scum and other scum has diverted attention away from him is the lynches against Inig and da0ud. Kush(and admittedly to a lesser extent myself) were responsible for the latter, while the lynch against Inig was Djod himself in tandem with debears(and possibly someone else, I don't remember, please correct me here if I'm wrong). Lastly, Djod actually switched his vote from Inig to da0ud and was the last one to do so IIRC. To me, scum "securing" a lynch on a townie makes no sense whatsoever. The only ones at risk of actually vote switching near a lynch are actual scum, so protecting themselves against a switch is meaningless. That to me leaves the first two options and in both of them Djod is not scum. Sure, he could be SK and his actions don't really dispute that but to be honest, I would rather have a possible SK(and I'm not convinced he is) left alone and actually try and lynch mafia. Mostly because an SK isn't that worrisome if we still have a pretty good town vs scum majority. For that reason, I looked at the possibilities left. Either scum is keeping really quiet and all of us accusing Djod are town, or scum are in fact trying to get Djod lynched. I find the latter more likely, although unfortunately I don't really have a good explanation for why I think that is, it's basically just a hunch, although not an insignificant one. He WIFOMS what scum would do since he thinks you're town. WIFOM WIFOM WIFOM | ||
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On October 29 2012 14:10 Djodref wrote: Well, this would have been a better reason for dandel to go after Inig rather than to vote me for being the SK. Really? Because I haven't been super hard pressing Inig after yesterday. Why? Because nothing has changed on him. He's doing the same shit, being his usual lurky self | ||
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Why don't you find me scummy then??? Since I'm pressing you and not Inig | ||
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debears
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On October 29 2012 14:16 Djodref wrote: @ debears You have posted a second case about me so I think I became your top scumread at that point. That case didn't happen until well into day 2. I still didn't press Inig after the lynch because the damn guy is inactive so talking to him is like trying to start a car without an engine. | ||
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debears
United States2516 Posts
Djo, I'll look over you one more time tomorrow. | ||
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debears
United States2516 Posts
On October 29 2012 21:56 Alsn wrote: I'm awake. I'd just like to state that if you look at my post carefully, the WIFOM is not with regards to Dandel. It just contains my reasons for not entirely condemning Djo just yet. In my opinion my case against Dandel stands entirely on its own. That being said, debears did indeed point out some interesting points with regards to Dandel's meta which I need to consider. To be honest, I'm getting the distinct feeling that even IF Djod is scum, his scum buddies almost has to be roco + nackh, or one of them and one of the players that has been playing "safe", although who that would be I have no idea. Lastly, while I think we can't discount the possibility that Djod is SK and that both him and scum/Rad shot the same target, I find it extremely unlikely. I have no idea why an SK would shoot either kush or sylver. I think I need to consider just what our chances would be if I'm to go along with a Djod lynch over Dandel. I'm almost at the point where I'm starting to get worried that both of them will flip green - however unlikely that is - and scum has been fooling us all along. Although if that is indeed the case, I don't think we stand much of a chance to be honest. I'll get back with some non-ramblings soonish, I really just wanted to point out that you can't just look at my case against Dandel and dismiss it just because I'm WIFOMing wrt Djod. Alsn, the problem with your case is that you base how the scum would push Djo if Djo is town. Before that, you WIFOM into thinking Djo is town based on the fact that no one defended him (when he was not under serious threat to be lynched d1). @Djo The second scumslip I was talking about On October 26 2012 12:18 debears wrote: @Djo Do you believe that Inig fits the category of lurker? His filter is less than a page. Djo, why would Alsn be able to come up with something consistent if he thought you were scum? This sounds like scum with a guilty conscience. Scum know they are guilty. Their posts are made with the intention to mislead town, meaning that they know that traces of their deception are in their own posts. If you were townie, you would feel that your filter is not filled with scummy things, since you would be honest and sincere. This post definitely does not give that read of honesty. | ||
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debears
United States2516 Posts
On October 30 2012 00:39 Djodref wrote: I want dandel lynched today. He has much more chances to flip red than Roco in my opinion. Moreover, I think we are going much more information from a dandel lynch than from a roco lynch. That is a bullshit statement. You do NOT, under any circumstance, lynch for information. You lynch for scum. That is a scum statement all the way | ||
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debears
United States2516 Posts
2 fucking mega lurkers suddenly pop in and vote???? Really? | ||
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debears
United States2516 Posts
On October 29 2012 14:44 Djodref wrote: @ Cheese I know, this looks super bad. Even myself I don't understand how I can be town in this fucking game... How the fuck are we not supposed to vote for a guy who said that he can't even understand how he can be town? What kind of bullshit pity statement is that? That is a guilty conscience right there. Grade A guilty conscience. | ||
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debears
United States2516 Posts
On October 29 2012 21:21 Djodref wrote: Okay guys, I cannot stress this enough, here are the key reasons why I think that dandel is scum. They are not so much easy to find in the case so I'm gonna write them again in plain sight here.
Sorry guys How many original cases have you made Djo? I count Inig and Sylver. And you didn't push either. The case you have on Dandel now was Alsn's. You have brought literally no new information to it. You did not push ANYONE D1 near the lynch. You acted confused. You left your Inig case because he was "sincere" Did you forget he said he could also see you as scum? He prefered lynching a guy who might be one or the other, and both must be elimated for town win-con | ||
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debears
United States2516 Posts
Scum just sitting back waiting for the mislynch to happen. Nice job guys keep it up. | ||
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debears
United States2516 Posts
Never forget!!!! | ||
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debears
United States2516 Posts
On October 30 2012 00:50 Alsn wrote: Assuming we don't get much/any more information from Nackh/Roco. I think lynching them is pretty much just a gamble. I see no reason to believe them to be any more scum or town than random chance at this point. Which means that assuming you're vigi Rad, we have a 66% chance of lynching town if we go for one of them. 33% chance of scum while better than a D1 lurker lynch, it's not by much. Basically, even though I'd prefer to lynch Dandel right now, I'd much rather lynch Djod or even Inig over one of the lurkers if it comes to a choice like that. So let me get this straight. You do think Djo and Inig are scum? And in that case, they sheep on your case immediately and add nothing to it, and you don't think that's suspicious? Really Alsn? You're disregarding the blatant differences in Dandel's meta, the obvious statements by Djo that are scumslips, and his hypocritical attack on Dandel? You think we shouldn't vote for the guy who said he can't see himself as town this game? | ||
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debears
United States2516 Posts
This sudden appearance from both Roco and Nackht and quick votes makes no sense. Roco votes Dandel and disappears. 1 sentence of reasoning. Nackht votes CC, not even related to the lynch right now. And now Nackhts posting weird ass shit and not making any sense..... Inig still MIA. Just cruising by. Sheeped and Voted Dandel and left | ||
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debears
United States2516 Posts
Alsn has refused to notice how his own case is based on WIFOM. Either too much pride or scum. Null tell right now. Dandel has acted distinctly different from his scum meta. He has acted in line with his town meta. Two of my top scumreads jumped on him almost instantly. Town read. | ||
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debears
United States2516 Posts
That argument has no ground. How about this. Assuming dandel doesnt exist, why should we not vote djo? | ||
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debears
United States2516 Posts
Well, that claim makes sense........didn't see that coming. Also Rad, the timing is good. With the amount of lurking in this thread (Roco, Nackht, Inig) and others not being able to post (Cheese), it's good to claim with time for people to see. That said, Dandel, if you are lying and we will be able to find out at night, you are auto-lynched. | ||
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debears
United States2516 Posts
@Alsn Why Dandel is town is in the spoilers based on notes from pretty much his entire filter except the last half of today. Summary - Consistent with his arguments unless there is a reason explained by townie motivations (wanting to lynch lurkers, but not ones that will get modkilled anyways) - Willing to take the spotlight and not caring to say things that can be pointed out as suspicious (openly talking about tunneling kush, arguing with Alsn and Djo, etc) - Consistency with town meta - Avoids WIFOM - Shows frustration over lurking in entire game (consistent with his lurker lynch policy) - Shows that he is attentively reading the thread (pointing out confusing grammar and people not reading and other small things) - Aggressiveness with the Kush and Djo cases without a consensus among town *caution* Long ass spoiler with alot of his quotes and one-liner notes on many posts. Only look at if you honestly don't believe me + Show Spoiler + On October 25 2012 10:08 Dandel Ion wrote: That goes without saying. Having a confirmed scum can be hard though.. And is next to impossible day 1 (since no possible DT checks) unless there is a serious slip. That is why policy lynches day 1 can end up being a necessity. That said, I'm going to sleep. See you in a few hours. Dandel comes out and says the difficulty of being sure about a scum lynch d1. He sticks by his point the whole day 1. On October 25 2012 19:23 Dandel Ion wrote: Right on, I'M Back. To start off I kind of disagree. Right now, Roco looks a bit suspicious to me. Those statements, they imply that he wants to lynch people that are "too active". That's nonsense. He doesn't want to follow lurker policy, so he doesn't seem suspicious. Nonsense too. @Roco: Are you planning to lurk? (by your posts, it doesn't look like you plan on being active) Care to explain to me how (probably) lurking yourself and lynching the most active players will help you find scum? Also, answer Djo's questions pls. (especially the second one) Until he manages to clarify that: ##FoS Roco I know it's possible he's just... well, a noob, that's why I didn't straight up vote for him. In my first game, I suggested a No-lynch day1 (though I'd like to think that I was more logical about it) But remember that we talked about playing the "newbie-card" in the beginning? Same goes for other people. I get a scummy feel off Roco, and I'm not going to ignore it because it's his first game. Here he pressures Roco. Well warranted FOS for something ridiculous Roco said. On October 25 2012 22:48 Dandel Ion wrote: On what do you base that? All I see is he made no contributions. So did other people. Some didn't even post yet. If it's what he said, why do you see him as scummier than Roco? Because I don't, so I'd like to know where this is coming from. Questions Djo while standing by his lurker policy. On October 25 2012 22:59 Dandel Ion wrote: Uuuuh Not really. You just say "no" as an answer. That's the 'correct' answer for both alignments. I'd imagine you won't be able to interpret much out of those 2 letters. I know in a post yesterday I semi-seriously pressured Roco to answer that same question, but as I just said, semi-seriously. You seem to really think that's a good strategy, lol. More suspicions of Djo. Calls me out for being hypocritical. Shows he is reading the thread. On October 26 2012 00:53 Dandel Ion wrote: I basically said the same thing, and you FoS'd me for it. reference: Now the question is, did you read my post wrong, or are you being hypocritical? On October 26 2012 01:45 Dandel Ion wrote: You don't get it. You establish a lurker-lynch policy early. Potential lurkers see it and go all "oh shit if I lurk I'm gonna die" So they don't lurk. If you say "nah I'm completely against lynching lurkers" or "We should lynch the most active people" What do lurkers do when they see that? They'll tell themselves "cool, I'm set" And then they lurk. Uses good reasoning in explaining his liking of lurker lynch policy when questioned. On October 26 2012 02:14 Dandel Ion wrote: I certainly have concerns regarding Inig. It's been said: He doesn't take a stance on anything. And that is a worrying behaviour. As far as my personal scummy lurker ranking goes, I'm still more suspicious of Roco (neither posted in the meantime, so it's hard to change opinion on that) I know "not making sense" doesn't neccessarily = scum, especially in newbies. My biggest problem right now, is that he posted those confusing/nonsensical statements, and then just disappeared from the face of earth without explaining himself, even though people called him out on it in a very reasonable timeframe. Still most suspicious of lurkers. On October 26 2012 02:27 Dandel Ion wrote: Well, if they don't vote/post, they'll get replaced or modkilled, so lynching super-lurkers is not only a crapshoot, but also redundant. Starts getting off Roco because of being a super lurker. On October 26 2012 04:11 Dandel Ion wrote: What scumhunting exactly? I didn't ever see you do something that would qualify as such. Pure WIFOM. You said you wouldn't do it as scum, but if you are scum, you could do it, point at it, and say "I'd never do this as scum". It's impossible to get a read on your original answer, but the INSTANT you try to argue with "I'd never do this as scum"-WIFOM shit, it gets me riled up. Don't do that. It doesn't make you look good. Recognizes WIFOM and calls it out. On October 26 2012 04:22 Dandel Ion wrote: He's not going to find scum if he's not actively trying. That's just sitting back and hoping others do the work for you. And THAT'S the best-case scenario where I, for the sake of this argument assume a town perspective. Engaging actively with Clarity, who was confrontational. Willing to take the spotlight. On October 26 2012 19:26 Dandel Ion wrote: I'm here, I'm here. There are (or were, at least) some suspicions of Alsn based on his meta, and I just want to weigh in with this: He said he has college entrace exams tomorrow. Assuming that's true (and I see no reason why it shouldn't be), that explains his absence. You gotta learn for things like that. Just to say, I'm not going to be up for an Alan lynch today, in case somebody actually planned to do that. His posts were not scummy so far, and the only argument against him could be meta. Which, in light of this, is not a good argument even. We can revisit this if he still plays like that after Saturday. He brings up a point that I and others had forgotten about Alsn. That means he is really paying attention to the thread and reading. He shows rational thinking and patience. On October 26 2012 19:55 Dandel Ion wrote: Thanks for digging this up an hour before I would have addressed it anyways. Why I FoS'd Roco: It should be clear from my post, I would have thought, but I wanted to pressure him. Into explaining himself, into making scumreads, anything. Sadly, he has not done that. You probably don't understand this concept, but one of the hardest things in Newbie games is finding out if somebody is bad-town or scum. Do you honestly think I would have an awesomesauce 100% scumread on somebody after 2 posts? No can do, sorry. Which is why I wanted him to post more, to find out. He's not done that, which makes him MORE suspicious to me. It can be an intentional strategy: He doesn't post after being under suspicion, then before the deadline he comes in to vote somebody, so he doesn't get modkilled. The thing now: If he does that, he's confirmed himself scum in my eyes. If he doesn't do that, he gets modkilled for not voting. Logical conclusion: Despite what I said yesterday about lynching him if he doesn't post (which I primarily said to get him to post), I don't really want to vote him TODAY. Because assuming he keeps the lurking up, he either confirms himself scum or gets modkilled. If he starts posting normally again, I'm gonna have to rethink that again, but seeing as he's been afk for >24 hours already, that's unlikely anyways. I explained why I like to emphasise lurker policy: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=374466¤tpage=19#362 I even dumbed it down really hard in that post, you should be able to understand it. No, town benefits from having more information. Your argument IS WIFOM. Again. Stop it. What's even worse, is that you seem to possess the mental capability to UNDERSTAND lurker policy (reference: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=374466¤tpage=10#198 This quote, you not only show that you understand lurkers are a problem for town, yet you find me suspicious for trying to limit the lurking in this game? Because doing something that's good for town and bad for scum, through some random reason translates to "OH BOY THIS GUY IS SUSPICIOUS AS HELL" in your brain? I don't get it. You're not making sense imo. AND THE WORST PART: You do the same fucking thing you accuse me of doing to Roco, just worse. (because casey looks like a serious modkill candidate, and didn't say anything you could derive a scumread from. I was at least going for the lurker that had scummy posts, you just told yourself "Yes, going for a 25% chance of hitting scum is a good idea!") You're a hypocrite, and I think you're scum. But, in contrast to you, I won't just call you scummy in a big post and then vote a random dude that has a high chance of getting modkilled. I'm voting you! ##vote Inigmaticalism Consistent with his point about super lurkers getting modkilled. Turned to the more active lurker. Points out the newbie town possibilty, something scum don't do, especially scum in favor of policy lynching. On October 26 2012 21:00 Dandel Ion wrote: Kush, I'm going to tunnel you. I also won't give you any BotD anymore. Just a headsup. Doesn't Kush have the obs qt link? Tells Kush he will tunnel Kush. Why would a scum outright say that? That calls attention to him self and openly draws suspicion. On October 26 2012 21:38 Dandel Ion wrote: I think your sentence is not complete. I hope you meant to say that you will vote somebody else then? Points out a grammar mistake. As i said, attentively reading the thread. On October 26 2012 22:47 Dandel Ion wrote: Man, I did get a bit emotional, I admit, but I really do consider him scummy. Not just because he accused me specifically. I can see, however, that Ingi lynch will probably not go through today, since nobody wants to support it. I'm keeping my vote on him for now (because, conversely, I don't find the Djo suspicions to be too compelling) and I still have hope that maybe some people will look at it the same way. Keeps his vote on Inig. Doesn't have a great scumread at that point. Sticking by his lurker lynch policy. Also, wanting to see if people will change their minds to Inig and leaving the possibility open. On October 27 2012 04:46 Dandel Ion wrote: I really don't think we should lynch Djo today. It's been said, but it doesn't hurt to repeat it: With how active he's being, his alignment will show sooner or later. He might cut back on his posting pace, then that's scummy. He might contradict himself and slip, that's scummy too. Or he doesn't do any of those, which I hope will happen. I understand that his play was scummy-ish at parts, but we can always come back on that. He also at least put effort into staying alive, which is something other people have not done, and frankly, right now, I'd let him live just based off that. What I'd suggest now, with a bit more than 4 hours left into the day, is that people either: a) decide between Inig and daoud - good arguments have been made for either. or b) if they want to lynch somebody else, present a good reason. 5 people have not even voted. That's actually a horrible position for us. Inig has his vote absolutely USELESSLY parked on casey, for no reason. Cheesecake, lynching Djo today is not a good idea. You should decide on somebody else. Most important is actually that you do whatever you plan to do SOON. If everybody votes and voteswitches only in the hour before the lynch, it will be pure chaos. And I'd prefer to avoid chaos if possible. Gives a logical response about Djo. Djo has done nothing to give off town vibes since then. Makes sense that he attacks Djo after n1. On October 27 2012 07:43 Dandel Ion wrote: No, it's optimal play for both alignments to stay alive themselves. Scum doesn't want to stay alive "more". The only exception is if you actively save a claimed blue or a confirmed town. But I sure haven't seen such a thing so far. And from what I gathered, there is no way Inig has a strong enough town read on daoud for it to make sense to get himself lynched over him. The only way this is town behaviour is if he doesn't want to play anyways, but his posting so far didn't suggest a lack of motivation. Thinking about townie and scum motivations. Scum tend to look only at scum motivations, since mafia have to frame people to get them lynched. On October 27 2012 07:57 Dandel Ion wrote: To be able to come up with a decent reason, I'd have to know both of their alignments... This is WIFOM zone, I don't think anything will come out of us guessing about this. The point is, the way I see it, there is no reason for town OR scum to not vote daoud in that situation. It doesn't make sense, and thus I'm treating it as a nulltell. Avoiding WIFOM again. Scum love using WIFOM since it lets them justify whatever decision they make. On October 27 2012 08:55 Dandel Ion wrote: Vote somebody to not get modkilled would be a good start. Doesn't want wasted votes. Townie tendency. On October 27 2012 09:13 Dandel Ion wrote: @Inig: Sick association case, tell me more. Mockery of a d1 association case. Rightly so, association cases are bullshit without a flip. On October 27 2012 22:36 Dandel Ion wrote: Okay, so here goes: Djo is looking really scummy now. Remember the slip calling daoud a townie? By now, I'm thinking that it actually was a scumslip. Djo just said "dw guise, it was a slip, but not a scumslip. Trust me!" And people actually did that. My take on that: He wanted to buddy up daoud, and slipped in the process. The day 1 cases against him didn't hold much ground in my eyes, but daoud's flip changes things. ##FoS Djo So Djo is looking scummy, but I have an even stronger scumread, and I'll tunnel this one (like I promised I would!) http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=374466¤tpage=28#547 (also some later posts, won't link all the relevant ones here) He comes into the thread, dismisses the Inig cases with some excuse about how he is "sharing his thoughts" (a convenient way to ignore WHAT those thoughts actually were), and proclaims daoud scum instead. now, the post where daoud voted Inig WAS weird. I'll admit that. I also commented on that when I read it. But it honestly was not such a big deal as Kush pretended it was. His further points on daoud: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=374466¤tpage=31#609 He excused Djo's scumslip too easily. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=374466¤tpage=31#616 He drags out a random quote of daoud from another game, and uses it as "evidence" that his meta is wrong. Later, he tries to imply a townread on Inig AND a way to subtly imply daoud is scum, just because Inig placed a useless vote on me. Note how this is actually a gigantic logical fallacy, since for this to hold true, he has to look at it from the perspective that Inig is scum, but he somehow draws the conclusion that town is more likely to do that? Wat? http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=374466¤tpage=32#625 http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=374466¤tpage=32#629 I CONSIDER THIS A SCUMSLIP, since he does logic assuming Inig is scum, even though he doesn't get tired of soft-defending Inig and excusing him as "newbie town" (a horrible defense, I think we agreed on that already), and even when he says he considers it a null-tell, he is trying to make it look as something town is more likely to do (which, by the way, is wrong too) You played scum WITH debears. Don't act like you don't know him. His scum meta is something you should be perfectly familiar with. So I don't believe your "I don't know" bullshit. It just looks like you're trying to sow baseless suspicions. Same with this: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=374466¤tpage=36#713 You're trying to imply suspicious behaviour in another thread, from a relatively random comment, that doesn't neccessarily have anything to do with this game at all. That's bad enough. But then the part about how he PM'd you? wtf is this even trying to accomplish? If somebody PMs you, and you actually have a problem with it, you PM the host. Don't go into the thread to wave it around. And then you act like it's a null read anyways? WHY THANK YOU FOR THIS CONTRIBUTION You're just trying to shit up the thread and undermine the position of somebody that most people (including me) have a townread on. ##FoS Kush A good post on Kush. Kush selectively used meta, as I found out later. Ends up it was just bad townie play. Also, calls out Kush for "forgetting" playing with me. Yet, kush made a comment in the pre game that I wouldn't be a good coach. That was an extremely odd thing that Kush said. I was suspicious of Kush for similar reasons. On October 27 2012 23:37 Dandel Ion wrote: I WILL tunnel him forever. His play is painted in red, and then this response? Yeah, he's scum. Aggressive stance after making a case. Mentions tunneling again. Taking the spotlight. On October 28 2012 03:56 Dandel Ion wrote: What? He played an ENTIRE game, with debears IN his scumteam, both surviving the whole game. And you just believe him, because .... Hell, I don't know why you would. You sure as hell didn't say. Really... Calls out people who are making retarded statements. Townie thing to do. On October 28 2012 04:51 Dandel Ion wrote: Rad, I appreciate the enthusiasm, but I have a hard time getting behind an argument that's based on a pregame joke, combined with what might possibly be an association case. I'm not even sure what to call it. Thank you for understanding. While he has been accusing Kush, refuses to use the retarded case by Rad as backup to his own case. Wouldn't scum just use the momentum to push their case more? On October 28 2012 05:06 Dandel Ion wrote: I know you're not the smartest guy around, but I'm not sure if even you are that... absent. Though, looking at what you are throwing around in this thread, you might be. I have, however, promised myself to not exuse anything you do with the explanaition of "stupid" anymore. Because of that same game. So yes, I think you are lying. I'm not going to give you any BotD. Had you read the thread, this wouldn't come as a surprise to you. Cocky and insulting like his townie self. On October 28 2012 08:54 Dandel Ion wrote: If I'm dead, please lynch Kush. 2nd priority would be Inig. - I would be tremendously surprised if there isn't at least one scum between the two of them. I get a strong town feeling from Rad. Once he learns how to make a proper case, you should (at least) listen to him. debears I'm leaning town, Djo I'm leaning scum, but those reads are not as strong. Everyone else is pretty null to me, with only slight feel-reads in either direction, or real proper null reads. Thinks he might be nked and calling out reads of important actives. No extra bullshit. While a mafia is capable of this, the relevance to the active players makes it a bigger townie tell. On October 28 2012 09:41 Dandel Ion wrote: Djodref, why are you being so certain that mafia is responsible for the kill on Sylver? Is there something you want to tell us? Calling out people who seem to "know" why the nks happened the way they did before the vig claim. Scum love to speculate on nks cause it gives them somehting to talk about and mislead the town. On October 28 2012 20:03 Dandel Ion wrote: >.> Your posts heavily imply that mafia is bluesniping Sylver, and you don't even aknowledge the possibility that Kush was the scum KP. Cheesecake's point about how fast you found a good reason to kill Sylver is also pretty good in my opinion. I mean, I checked his filter again, too, but I didn't even really think about that. To me, it sounds plausible that you've thought about it beforehand. I just want you to admit shooting either of them. You could still be scum, but the read I'm getting from you really strongly is SK. Now, my sample size is not the biggest, but I played a single game with a SK. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=367548 (doesn't say in the OP, but it's thrawn) And your play feels SO MUCH like thrawn's that game, it's not even funny. Since there's been no Vig claim, I'll have to assume a SK in the game now. Because it doesn't really make sense to NOT claim vig, he'd have no shots left, and would be, for all intents and purposes, be confirmed town. Which is something I'd like very much, at this point. Reasons to not claim Vig: If you're actually the SK and you'd incriminate yourself when there comes another night with 2 NKs. That's it. Conclusion: Djo is either SK, or scum. Both are reasons to lynch him, to me. ##Vote Djodref That said, does anybody even care about this game anymore?... The Djo may be SK post. Acknowledges Djo may be either. Also, attacks Djo for speculating bluesniping, which is anti-town. In any case, eliminating the SK or Mafia is a positive for town. Especially when someone has a good chance to be either. And a SK isn't necessarily good for town since a SK would have to be able to accurately hit mafia with nks. You can't say wanting to lynch a SK is anti-town. On October 28 2012 21:40 Dandel Ion wrote: What Alsn said. I don't know which one is the scum kill. It's more likely it's Sylver, that I admit. But in no way, shape or form is it IMPOSSIBLE that Kush was the scum kp. If I wanted to speculate up reasons for it, I could come up with some. But it would be pretty useless specuation, and most importantly, fluffing up the thread. You unwillingness to even aknowledge the possibility that kush was scum-killed, reads to me like you have relevant information on the subject. That's why I think you were involved in one of the kills. If you're SK, you most likely killed Kush, if you're scum, I could see a reason for you to kill either. You're right that this lynch is pretty fucking important. That's why I don't want to waste time twiddling my thumbs like you all seem to prefer. We're already full of lurkers that probably don't read the thread more than once per day. So what rationale do you have for NOT pushing your reads early? If you wait until right before the flip, it won't do shit, because 3/4ths of the game won't even be there. Ergo, I think I'm pretty damn justified in pushing my read early. Yet again, avoiding WIFOM. Pushing a read confidently without much help behind him before the vig claim. Calling you and Djo out confidently. Very townie post. On October 28 2012 21:45 Dandel Ion wrote: SK is also more likely in my mind because nobody really defends you, except really soft defenses. You look more "alone" than a scum would, in my opinion. That, or your scumbuddies are lurking, which would also explain it. Oh, and I also played a game as scum against Kush, and we didn't feel like we had to kill him, even though he was the claimed JK. We killed Alsn the VT instead (who played approx. 300 times better in that game, btw). So I understand all about scum not killing Kush. The thing is, I can't rely on scum reaching the same conclusion that I would. Mentions that the lack of support for Djo could be SK or scum strat (believe it or not scum outright avoid talking about each other since they don't have to keep their story straight on a partner. I did it when I was scum in my first game.) The next posts are the flaming, which he as town did against me in our first game when he thought my case was complete bullshit. Similar response to your case Alsn, no? On October 28 2012 23:24 Dandel Ion wrote: Uhm, no? I have a scum feel from somebody, I'll tunnel him for as long as it takes for him to look town to me, instead. Kush didn't give me any reason to assume he was town, so I had to keep assuming he was scum. Again mentioning tunneling. Saying things that can easily pointed out as suspicious by scum. On October 28 2012 23:36 Dandel Ion wrote: So you WANT people to make association cases? I'm not sure you understand how this works. Also, if your buddies are both lurkers, that's also an explanaition for the lack of defense. Gives explanations for Alsn's (and Djo's sheeping) WIFOM on how scum buddies would have defended Djo, which Alsn doesn't know at all and is purely speculating about. On October 29 2012 12:11 Dandel Ion wrote: Okay, firstly, sorry for raging out in the thread. I shalt respond, entirely devoid of any insults. Alsn's original case + Show Spoiler + On October 28 2012 22:31 Alsn wrote: Ok, I'm going to preface this by some WIFOM, although I think it's merited in this case. Looking at the situation right now, the only one at risk of lynching seems to be Djodref. More importantly, he seems to be completely alone in his plight. I think he's scummy, but this fact alone leads me to believe that one of the following three options must be true:
Looking at these scenarios, and I'm convinced they're the only ones possible, I find the last one to be extremely unlikely. While myself and others have at times at least questioned whether or not Djod was all that super scummy, no one that I know has ever diverted a hypothetical Djod lynch unless it was done very subtly. In fact, the only argument that I feel can be made that he is scum and other scum has diverted attention away from him is the lynches against Inig and da0ud. Kush(and admittedly to a lesser extent myself) were responsible for the latter, while the lynch against Inig was Djod himself in tandem with debears(and possibly someone else, I don't remember, please correct me here if I'm wrong). Lastly, Djod actually switched his vote from Inig to da0ud and was the last one to do so IIRC. To me, scum "securing" a lynch on a townie makes no sense whatsoever. The only ones at risk of actually vote switching near a lynch are actual scum, so protecting themselves against a switch is meaningless. That to me leaves the first two options and in both of them Djod is not scum. Sure, he could be SK and his actions don't really dispute that but to be honest, I would rather have a possible SK(and I'm not convinced he is) left alone and actually try and lynch mafia. Mostly because an SK isn't that worrisome if we still have a pretty good town vs scum majority. For that reason, I looked at the possibilities left. Either scum is keeping really quiet and all of us accusing Djod are town, or scum are in fact trying to get Djod lynched. I find the latter more likely, although unfortunately I don't really have a good explanation for why I think that is, it's basically just a hunch, although not an insignificant one. With that in mind, I went through both Mr. Cheese' and Dandel's filters and lo and behold, upon closer inspection I can't really find any good reasons to think that they are town. Sure, Cheese hasn't done anything particularly scummy but looking at his behaviour as a whole he hasn't done anything particularly town either. Basically, Cheese's actions amount to suspecting Djod and... well, that's pretty much it. Apart from arguing semantics and policy, that's pretty much his entire contribution. On the other hand, Dandel is in the same boat, with added baggage in fact. His contributions also amount to pretty much only suspecting Djod but with the added bonus that he said several times that he would tunnel kush, seemingly for no apparent reason. In fact I think the SK/vig(whoever it may be) killing kush actually messed things up quite a bit as I'm now thinking Dandel's entire plan was to tunnel kush simply because he's not a very hard target to attack(for those of you who are new, kush has a... let's say "vivid", reputation). Especially since he got a townie lynched. Finally, almost every single post of Dandel so far in the game has been fluffy at best, scummy at worst. He kept bringing up policy voting well after most people had started talking about it, as if he wanted the discussion to continue. His so called "case" on Inig was pure OMGUS and finally, his unwillingness to actually switch from that OMGUS case even though he actually admitted himself that it wasn't a very good case. In fact, the two people that could have actually been switched to were either Djod(who he at the time had said he wasn't convinced was scummy) and da0ud(for reasons I now suspect he didn't want to be associated with vote flipping onto a townie). So, to sum up my case for why Dandel Ion is scum
I'd like to hear people's thoughts on this matter, since I'm feeling pretty good about my case at this point. Oh and, ##Vote: Dandel Ion So, he not only prefaces, but pretty much BASES his case on WIFOM. Not the most optimal strategy to start with. So, the first half of the post is complete fluff and only makes it look like that case has more content/base than it actually has. Then, he says Cheese and I are similar in that we only suspect Djo and nobody else, but I somehow have "added baggage". I have no idea what this is supposed to mean, but okay. Had he read my filter properly though, he would've been able to see that me only suspecting Djo is far from the truth. Oh wait, in fact, he does see that it's far from the truth. In the SAME paragraph where he says I only suspect Djo, he even aknowledges that I also suspected Kush. (I also supect(ed) Inig btw.) This is a blatant contradiction and I stopped reading here the first time I saw it. Then, he determines that "every" post I made was either fluff or scummy. I made some posts that could be considered fluff for most people, I suppose. So, okay, whatever. But he states no reason for calling "every" other post I ever made scummy. In fact, he doesn't even point out a single one. If you think my play is "scummy" overall, then say that. If you come out with things like "all his posts are scummy", and can't even point out a single one, then this signals to me that you can't do so, BUT you want your words to have stronger impact. And there is no reason to look for that, unless you know yourself that your case is not as good as you'd like it to be. "The-guy-that-is-always-the-second-one-to-go-after-somebody" debears: + Show Spoiler + On October 29 2012 00:23 debears wrote: @Dandel Flame fest is anti-town. If you think Alsn's case isn't good, actually argue against his points. Otherwise, your actions so far imply that you think you are guilty and you can't refute his case. ##Vote Dandel This vote is staying put unless you explain yourself and the case of Alsn and do some scumhunting I don't think that could've been called a "flame fest" yet, but opinions vary I suppose. Yes, that's my contentless response to a contentless sheeping. Because he asks for it all the time: + Show Spoiler + On October 29 2012 00:54 Mr. Cheesecake wrote: @ Dandel I also want an answer to this question you so conveniently avoided. Why playing the confused card? I thought you were against the noobie card, which is basically the same? I was not actively trying to play the newbie card, and I can't do much more than say that. I WAS confused, which is why I acted confused. I think I may have even said that I was, and I honestly didn't think about how it would "look" to others. I can't say much more than that on this matter. Take it or leave it. "Hey-guys-we-didn't-do-any-NK-speculations-yet" Djodref: + Show Spoiler + On October 29 2012 10:14 Djodref wrote: Regarding dandel, I've found him very quick to accuse me as a SK at the beginning of D2. I know that he is saying that I'm SK or scum but his posts strongly imply that I'm more SK than scum (he brings thrawn meta in and says I'm more likely to be SK than scum). It makes a lot of sense from a mafia point of view. It's true that I didn't consider the fact that Kush could have been killed by the mafia and that I have found a possible reason for the mafia to have targeted sylverfire quite fast. It was obvious for me that mafia would never had killed Kush because of my experience of the last game. Correct me if I'm wrong but Kush is never NKed by the mafia when he rolls town. Anyway, I should have looked like I had some extra information about the night kills. So, from a mafia point of view, I really should be looking like a SK. I find it very strange that dandel didn't wait that long for a vig to claim. Getting a SK lynched is good for the image I guess so he comes at me very fast with a weird meta argument to support the fact that could be SK. [u]To sum up[u] Scum dandel knows that I'm not going to flip scum. Reacting to an apparent extra information about the NKs from my side, he comes at me very fast saying that I'm SK (not waiting for a claim, backing it up with poor arguments). He doesn't have the time to go through 18 pages of Thrawn's filter. Seriously, it makes so much sense ! Town dandel would have reacted slower to an apparent extra information about the NKs from my side. It doesn't tell if I'm scum or SK (please check Cheese reaction to see the difference). His reaction could have been possible but it makes less sense. ##Unvote ##Vote Dandel You keep implying that I came after you "very fast", but that is a straight up lie. I gave you EASILY enough time to claim. I ask: "Is there something you want to tell us?" You seem to not want to tell us anything out of your own accord, so OVER 10 HOURS LATER, I make my post where I accuse you of being scum/SK. (This could've been avoided if Rad was faster at claiming, but better late than never.) You, Djo, will be happy to hear that I don't think you're the SK anymore, and you went back to being only Scum to me. You somehow arrive at how I "don't have the time to look through thrawn's filter", and I don't even know how you got to that assumption, or how it's relevant at all. But it's now redundant anyways. Honestly though, I probably couldn't point out a single collection of posts and point at it saying "this is where I got my scum/SK read on him", because he didn't have any obvious slips in there. He just posted a metric shitton and I always got a scummy feel off his posts. Which is pretty much what I get from you, only you post things that are slips, or at least look like them to me. Your "case", or post, or however you want to call it, is oddly similar to Alsn's too, in that 50% of it is speculation and WIFOM, which should have no place in there, and which I suspect is there only so that it makes it look like you had anything to actually base your read on. But I haven't seen anything. Oh, and I'm going to say this again, I was pushing for your lynch because you were either scum or SK. The chance of you flipping town are and were incredibly slim in my mind. Makes a defense case with good reasoning about WIFOM. Slightly flames me in line with his town meta. On October 29 2012 12:13 Dandel Ion wrote: And Inig tries to tell people that town doesn't need to lynch SKs... This game, man. I'm going to sleep. Shows clear frustration about the game. Has done this multiple times this game with the crazy amount of lurking. | ||
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Also, be aware that Dandel claiming early, if he was scum, would mean a threat of a counter claim that would be much easier to sort out with more time. Scum would most likely wait if they were fake claiming | ||
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Your posts are confusing and conflicting as hell | ||
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If Djo somehow flips town, idk........something went drastically wrong I'll have to relook filters at Inig, Roco, Nackht, and CC Safe to say, Djo - Inig should be scumteam with a Djo scum flip | ||
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And yours of course also Alsn | ||
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His scumslips aren't the big thing. The big thing is his behavior and actions. You should look in my filter and read the most recent case I posted on Djo | ||
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doesn't that defeat the purpose if he is set to be lynched in a couple of hours? | ||
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On October 30 2012 07:19 nackhtjogger wrote: So you want me to just read your case and take your word that I can make a sound judgment on Djo without knowing what went on in the thread after page 33? I don't know what he might have done recently but don't you think a scum Djo would try to cease being scummy after having so much attention on him. Judging by the number of posts I think he never stopped putting himself out there. Just a thought. so 1) you haven't read the thread and then 2) That's WIFOM. Scum could silent when at threat. scum could keep posting. And a large majority of his d2 posts are him accusing Dandel. Not like he actually had to scumhunt. Just try to argue to get someone else lynched. | ||
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on 1) the first 33 pages, which is day 1 and almost n1? | ||
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FOS Inig FOS Roco What you two have done is notoriously anti-town. You, if town, would not in any way, be playing to win the game @Nackht In light of your recent active discussion, I'm not too focused on you right now. @Cheesecake If you do not come back, I'm grouping you with Inig/Roco | ||
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Part of the dilemma we have right now is Inig and Roco right now They are 1) Purposely playing the worst games as town I've ever seen (not playing to win) 2) Scum playing to win | ||
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Part of the problem with Djo's trust of Inig is the fact that he was on the chopping block......you look for trust from anyone to sway the lynch in your favor | ||
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On October 31 2012 00:11 Alsn wrote: Exactly this, and it's a fucking terrible situation. We are basically forced to lynch them because of the possibility of 2) while at the same time having pretty damn bleak outlooks on the rest of the game if 1) is true. The annoying part is, if we get lucky and 2) is true, the third scum will just be sheeping onto their lynches anyway, so the game will end up with either 2 vs 1 in favour of town, or Rad winning as SK. So even if we get lucky, we still need to hope to god that Rad wasn't bullshitting us with his vigi claim. That being said, I'd much rather that Rad win than scum, so yea. Haha agreed with a Rad victory. Would be a kickass one. And honestly I don't think we are going to get either of them to respond. So basically, we'll have to start thinking about the third scum. | ||
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On October 31 2012 00:14 Rad wrote: I'm not sure what you mean here. Can you clarify? When you are about to be lynched, your goal is to stay alive if you're town in whatever way you can. That means asking for help from anyone that can help you | ||
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I only counted 2 votes on Inig at the end: Alsn and Dandel His wouldn't have been enough right? | ||
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On October 30 2012 08:58 Djodref wrote: Guys, I would prefer to lynch Cheese over Ini Makes sense now | ||
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On October 31 2012 03:26 nackhtjogger wrote: Btw people, next time when you play town try to end the discussion about lurker policy as quickly as possible. Loosing to lurkers is awful but it's a different kind of shame than loosing to active scum. It has more to do with the ability to organize and agree on the fact that lurkers should be lynched D1 or let the vig take care of it, rather than a personal failure. This is always the right consensus to be reached for town as fast as possible, doesn't matter if you later bend it a bit.. that's the beauty of it. But you should never consider to debate bending it because it results in a shitstorm. @Nackht Exactly who is that addressed to? Also, you come into the thread spreading suspicion on Alsn and CC (calling them scum) and then say I'm certain town. On October 31 2012 02:17 nackhtjogger wrote: By process of elimination.. pretty much Mind explaining your reasoning? | ||
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On October 31 2012 03:52 nackhtjogger wrote: The only scenario worth considering right now is that there are 2 scum. I think I've identified Cheesecake as one by pointing out his constant queries into town's approval for his courses of action and considerations, which is what belnding in really means. Blending in doesn't mean you don't notice the guy .. it just means he TRIES desperately TO BLEND IN, actively I might add. Once you have enough experience to know how that manifests you can identify this by simply reading the tone of the post. Alsn on the other hand is another breed, his actions give away his scummness and the fact that his actions don't add up with what he claims to be thinking. If that wouldn't have been the case he would've either voted for Cheese or never mentioned that he finds cheese suspicious. What he did was .. not only anti-town in itself but it also kept other townies from doing the right thing and voting for Cheese. People started to listen to him when he said Cheese was suspicious but he sabotaged that trust and did exactly the opposite .. even saying that Dandel would be to blame for a Cheese mislynch. Oh really? That would've been 100% my fault obviously but somehow he cracked under pressure and actually believed he was going to get some heat. I think you, debears, tried persistently to get a leader position going from the start, and I have reasons to believe you feel threatened by my appearance and the certainty I'm emanating. You must feel like I know too much or that I want nothing more than to manipulate. Certain town? Who cares if you're certain town to me or not .. the only scenario that is left for consideration is that there are 2 scum and you have heard that I'm pretty sure cheese and alsn to be it. So what's the problem .. of course I'm drawing the line at this point and I want everybody except those two on my team. What? How are there only 2 scum? And the reason that you sound suspicious right now is that you are saying "Alsn and Cheese are scum", yet you don't quote anything or make any kind of formal cases against them. | ||
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ninja'd I see quotes now. Can you organize your thoughts into formal cases? | ||
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On October 31 2012 04:12 nackhtjogger wrote: If there are 3 scums, there is nothing to discuss. It's game over. How is the game over with 3 scum? Last time I checked we have a chance to lynch scum today. | ||
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On October 31 2012 04:18 nackhtjogger wrote: God you noobs are so annoying (>>>>> jk. Jeez. Talking at night is useless. Btw who didn't claim yet and why?! Um did you ever claim? | ||
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I'm Blanka (Vanilla Townie) | ||
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On October 31 2012 04:25 Dandel Ion wrote: What good does claiming VT names do anyways? I assume name division is not made from lore? (no idea though, I don't play SF) I have no idea what the deal with the names is. Never played it either :/ | ||
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How do you go from this? On October 31 2012 08:59 Alsn wrote: All right, I wanted to make this post in the case that I die. These are the reads that I haven't really made public as of yet for varying reasons. Debears is very probably town, if he isn't then I don't know what to say. Rad is definitely town, or at the very least you should treat him as such. If he's SK the game is over for town but if he's vigi it's definitely winnable. Dandel is probably town, but I still can't discount the possibility that he's scum role blocker. His claim doesn't rule it out(like Rad's does) but his actions during D2/N2 at least suggests to me that he's either town or a damned good actor when under pressure(the lynch chaos seemed genuinely town to me). Nackh I consider to be really scummy. His cases seem "fake" somehow, they don't suggest to me like he's really trying to really find scum. I keep getting the feeling that he doesn't actually care about winning. However, if I suppose that he's scum, it would mean that he just believes trolling the fuck out of the thread will make us feel scared about voting him(because we might think he's too big of a risk to lynch). Cheese... I just don't know, he's my top scum read among "the actives" based on his actions, but my problem is that I think Nackh is really scummy, so Cheese being accused by him means that either he's bussing him or Cheese is innocent. I can at least see a world where Cheese could be innocent. I find Nackh's general behaviour to be anti-town however. So suppose he really has played those 10 games of mafia he claims to have played. Then he probably knows that bussing is way more effective for gaining townie points if you're the cause of a scum lynch(first one to accuse) as opposed to waiting until there's a wagon already formed. Among these players and with how things stand right now, I'd suggest lynching Nackh. He's simply not playing very pro-town and that's the biggest scum tell I have right now. Also, unless that's also just him completely trolling, for some reason he seems set on the idea that both Roco and Inig are town with no chance of them being scum. I have no idea why he would think that unless he already knew that they were town. That leaves Roco and Inig. Sigh, I really wish we hadn't thought Roco was gonna get modkilled. Getting rid of him over Djod or even da0ud would've been a much better position. That being said, I'd hold off on lynching Inig for at the very least tomorrow. I find the possibility of him being town not entirely unlikely and in the case that he is, there's still hope for him. I think you have to assume that Roco is scum. Because even if he isn't I just don't see how you could get him to vote with you when he won't even talk. In conclusion, Lynch Roco and hope to god that he's scum, then probably Nackh, and then hopefully you have the last scum figured out and Rad doesn't actually turn out to be SK. If you don't want to hope that Roco is scum, or if in fact he actually shows up and contributes in a meaningful way, then I'd go with Nackh first. so quickly to this? On October 31 2012 09:05 Alsn wrote: Ok, screw my last minute post, Dandel is probably scum, post coming up. and this On October 31 2012 09:25 Alsn wrote: First, I think we can all agree that before this night flip, we knew two things. That Rad was either SK or Vigi and also that Dandel was either scum or town roleblocker. We know that scum couldn't know for sure if Rad was vigi or SK. However, if they suspected that he was SK they must have counted on him having a vest making him immune to one kill. Interestingly however, Dandel being scum or not would likely affect their decision greatly. Since if Dandel was town, they must have suspected that Rad was SK and thus night immune(since 4 blues seems like quite a stretch). On the other hand, if Dandel is scum, scum could definitely conclude that the possibility of Rad being vigi is much more likely(with only 2 blues it seems like the game would be very stacked against town if there's also a serial killer). Additionally, there's the fact that claiming town roleblocker is actually really easy to do if you are scum roleblocker. By the time Dandel claimed, he would have known from his scum buddies that none of them were role blocked. Neither had anyone else claimed roleblock so he knew the possibility of a town roleblocker was very unlikely(since town would definitely claim if they got roleblocked). Him bread crumbing that he would roleblock kush is a null tell at best. So, in conclusion, why I think Dandel is scum:
This is very alarming. Within 25 minutes, you go from Dandel as town to having a thought out post with the opposite conclusion This shows that your sudden flip on Dandel was premeditated. That means you knew what was going to happen and were preparing for it. Some more thoughts coming up after this. | ||
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Due to the post about rb mechanis that Dandel stated, and the fact that I believe his claim due to no counterclaim and his town meta and such, I believe there is a decent chance that you are town. Also, I am adding in the fact that Djo and Kush both had newbie town reads on you, as shown to me by Rad earlier. I would like your thoughts later when you can post them on the situation | ||
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On October 31 2012 10:18 Mr. Cheesecake wrote: @Debears Maybe the Rad flip really did catch him off guard? I agree that his opinion switching is a tad odd, but maybe the flip just hit the switch for him and suddenly everything was clear? Ockham's razor- less assumptions is true. Did you see the timestamps? It takes more than 25 minutes to gather thoughts like that unless they were premeditated | ||
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most like true on the ockham's razor part | ||
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no1 here for real? | ||
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It could've been a blue snipe. Can't say for sure though. What do you think of Dandel's claim currently? | ||
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This is mylo right? @Nackht and Roco Could use some input today, considering the situation. | ||
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I'm gonna peace out for a while and get my studying in since no1's here besides you | ||
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I still don't understand how you got from this On October 31 2012 07:26 Alsn wrote: Inig, afaik no one accused you of sheeping Dandel. Several people disliked the Dandel lynch because you were voting for him and had you pegged as scum, having little town credibility means things like this happen. What you're supposed to do is to not care that people don't trust you, and soldier through. Some of the beginner guides even say this, that your first goal as town is to establish your innocence. Which is easier said than done unfortunately. I also don't think you being lynched is anywhere near set in stone. I'm sorry to group you with Roco, but for pretty much all of the latter half of D2 you were nowhere to be seen. Also, you getting upset when you're playing a game where(assuming you truly are town) the main objective for 3 out of 13 participants to make everyone else believe you as little as humanly possible is a little naïve. Of course scum will be doing their absolute utmost to discredit townies and make their theories look bad, because indirectly that's their goal. To your last point, why do people insist that there is a serial killer? Or for that matter, that the mafia necessarily want to gamble on leaving him alive? We are arguing with Nackh about it because he is misleading people by talking about shit that has no bearing on what we must do, intentional or not. Suggesting that there are 2 scum is ridiculous. Saying that the game is over if there are 3 scum is equally ridiculous. Giving up is ridiculous. Do you really feel attacked? In my last game I was VT as well and I had to suffer being attacked by everyone at a point where there was a single scum and 9 town actually remaining, but everyone thought there were 2 scum. I was endlessly attacked yet that's what happens in this game. People are wrongly accused, people are misled. It's kind of the entire point. To this On October 31 2012 09:25 Alsn wrote: First, I think we can all agree that before this night flip, we knew two things. That Rad was either SK or Vigi and also that Dandel was either scum or town roleblocker. We know that scum couldn't know for sure if Rad was vigi or SK. However, if they suspected that he was SK they must have counted on him having a vest making him immune to one kill. Interestingly however, Dandel being scum or not would likely affect their decision greatly. Since if Dandel was town, they must have suspected that Rad was SK and thus night immune(since 4 blues seems like quite a stretch). On the other hand, if Dandel is scum, scum could definitely conclude that the possibility of Rad being vigi is much more likely(with only 2 blues it seems like the game would be very stacked against town if there's also a serial killer). Additionally, there's the fact that claiming town roleblocker is actually really easy to do if you are scum roleblocker. By the time Dandel claimed, he would have known from his scum buddies that none of them were role blocked. Neither had anyone else claimed roleblock so he knew the possibility of a town roleblocker was very unlikely(since town would definitely claim if they got roleblocked). Him bread crumbing that he would roleblock kush is a null tell at best. So, in conclusion, why I think Dandel is scum:
and this On October 31 2012 22:40 Alsn wrote: I'm back. My pre-day post was in the case that I died, my thoughts at the time were that if scum had really killed me for some reason, Dandel was probably town and they wanted to leave his ambiguous claim an open question for town. I had gotten so convinced from making that pre-day post that scum would not kill Rad that the fact that they did shocked me greatly. As to your point that I couldn't think that argument up from nothing in 25 minutes, you're absolutely right. I don't know how that makes me scummy though as if I had shared every theory I have, this thread would be cluttered as fuck. I had been thinking about the possibility of Rad dying and what it meant for my opinion of Dandel for several hours before hand. So yes, the post was somewhat premeditated, except for the fact that near the end I concluded that I'd save it for the next night if the game lasted that long. Reasons being that I didn't want to let scum know my line of thinking unless it actually happened(if it never happened it would be good for me that they didn't know I suspected that Dandel was close to confirmed town). So there, I see that you guys have managed to produce pretty much nothing during the 13 hours that I've been away. I'm anxiously awaiting something some time soon. Dandel, I can accept that it's your mothers birthday, but I really expect you to either do your absolute utmost tomorrow to find some lynchable scum or I can't see how I can't lynch you. Or at the very least, if you're really town, I hope someone can actually make an argument that makes sense to me why we should lynch someone else. In the first post, you said that scum wouldn't gamble on keeping the sk alive. Then, in the second you say that scum wouldn't shoot the sk at night. Then, you say scum would shoot you to keep the Dandel claim in doubt. Wouldn't shooting Rad do the same thing, as shown by your and Nackht's suspicions of Dandel's claim today? | ||
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debears
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On November 01 2012 07:00 Alsn wrote: Shooting Rad certainly would do that as you so nicely pointed out. I just didn't think they would. The first post you quote is definitely inconsistent however and I apologize. It was meant to make a potential town Inig actually want to participate(it felt to me like he was convinced the game was unwinnable due to what nackh had been saying) because if he was town and had completely given up, the game would definitely be over. I still don't understand why scum wouldn't shoot a guy who was either vig or SK. Rad's claimed was not doubted by any of us last time I checked, unless he would be SK, which an extra nk would point out to us. So, in other words, Rad was a threat to mafia as 1) A confirmed town or if not 2) A SK who's priority would be killing mafia | ||
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debears
United States2516 Posts
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debears
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Yeah Alsn honestly haven't had the time I thought I would today in terms of writing it. I have close to an hour of so to write it. I'll probably just post a summary of what I found since I didn't find any thing that was solely scum motivated. What I mainly saw is that most of the accusations against him aren't strong by any means. Will post the rest later. Also, Alsn I have found your start to today alarming. Since you are actually active, it's more important to get answers right away instead of going after afkers. @everyone I'm going to agree with Alsn, that, most likely, those who have been lurking the whole game, and continue to, are looking scummy as time goes on with no comment. In other words, Roco and Inig are the ones I'm mainly talking about. @Cheese Why were you gone day 1 before the lynch? Why have you been gone today? As I recall, you said you would be back on. | ||
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debears
United States2516 Posts
On November 01 2012 09:17 Alsn wrote: Still here for a teensy bit longer. Am I right in interpreting your post as accusing me of "going after afkers", yet agreeing with me that Roco is a logical lynch candidate? That seems a bit odd to me. I'm assuming your line about my start being "alarming" is with regards to my aggressive stance on Dandel, but I don't understand how the rest of that line fits into that. Get which answers right away? I think my reasons for suspecting Dandel at the time should be pretty clear, I didn't think there were any good reasons for why my argument wouldn't mean there was a pretty high chance of Dandel actually being scum. I wasn't getting on you about accusing lurkers. I was saying I didn't make the cheese post yet since I wanted to get some answers from you first. That was a misplaced line lol. I'll reread your arguments again (for like the 5th time). There's so much speculation and you seem to keep going around in circles. I feel like you are ignoring looking at his whole game and actual actions, his meta, and such for speculation to accuse him. | ||
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debears
United States2516 Posts
and using specuation in place of it to accuse him | ||
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debears
United States2516 Posts
While looking through cheese's filter a couple of times last night, I was looking for 1) the points that others pointed out about his neutralness and 2) Other things that would indicate scum (behavior and such) After going over it, I have concluded that I don't find anything damning and the original points addressed at Cheese were weak. The original points as I recall: 1)Neutrality 2)Sheeping Dau0d/Djo cases 3)Generally Blending In - look at unspoilered text below in the bold I believe these arguments fail to look at the context of what happened around what Cheese did, especially with these 3 points. Bold numbers 1 and 2 in spoiler correspond to the points + Show Spoiler + 1)Neutrality was most definitely true for d1 for cheese. He had a tendency of stating the obvious in terms of policy early on. As time progressed, his suspicions moved to 1)Djo and 2) Inig. He found his suspicions on Inig alleviated shortly. However, he did stay focused on Djo. He pursued unanswer questions from Djo (reading the thread). He put input on my case on specific parts, quoting which he agreed and disagreed with (as I recall very few people in this game have done so) and saying why. He attempted to make an ill-founded smiley meta case on Djo, but rescinded after being pointed out why he was wrong, but stood by the rest of his concerns of Djo. He had further suspicions on Djo due to Djo's refusal to change his views on policy and Djo's display of confusion. Before the lynch, he went MIA for a while and came back to the thread with a little time before lynch, switching his vote off Djo and onto Dau0d (explained his reasoning for voting Dau0d over Inig). His reasons were that he did not want to waste a vote on someone not getting lynched. Others had asked him to move his vote off Djo. So, for d1, nothing special, nothing that sticks out. Neutral. However, also remember that Cheese's top scumread was Djo. Djo's lynch never gained momemtun. Everyone wanted to take a wait a see approach. That could explain the rest of his d1 (except the afk). N2 - night 2 was a little bit of a different story. He became more active with the fill in of Kush. One thing I saw that he did was give kush a meta read on me. He had not been asked in any way to do so. Kush was rampaging about my meta, yet the only one to do a meta read was Cheese. This, in my eyes, is a town tell. He went beyond this game with his investigation. Also, he found kush's scumslip about nk's from kush's previous games before I even did, when I actually played that game. Something I noticed by Djo is that he defended kush against bad cases (rad's pre-game talk case). Also, during this time, Djo was attacking Cheese for Cheese's voteswitch at the end of day 1 off of Djo. The problem with that accusation, though, was that Djo himself asked Cheese to not waste the vote. Djo continued to argue this point for a while. Djo's accusations over a bad point led Cheese to believe Djo was scum during N2. He makes a formal case against Djo with his own points. D2 - 2) From d1 on, Djo never made himself seem town by his comments. Pretty much everyone was saying "Djo is scum". In n1, Djo pushed Cheese's suspicions with Djo's constant attack over an invalid point. Cheese keeps his vote on Djo, stating the "95% scum, 5% SK" argument, which, based off of Djo's actions in the night, and how Cheese's suspicion seemed to keep building, make sense. Cheese was also the second to vote Djo. Also, with the case he made, I wouldn't case his suspicion of Djo "sheeping" after the interactions between the two n1. Meanwhile, after Dandel flamed on, Cheese stated that he was willing to vote Dandel is Dandel refused to defend himself and keep flaming. Around this point, he said the hurricane was moving in. After a while, he posted a bit on Inig's "blending in". Also, he noticed how I somehow managed to quote his post in the middle of my Djo case while addressing the other points in the case. The quote from CC that I acccidentally put in the Djo case was in a spoiler, meaning that Djo was pretty likely reading my long case. Him reading the thread was a common theme that showed up in his filter. At the end of day2, he became more suspicious after Roco's and Inig's votes on Dandel without reasoning. He makes a final statment about Djo being scum, and disappears (saying it was the hurricane). Alright, that's the whole context of his posting. My thoughts on why I don't see much scum evidence 1) He's actively reading the thread and discussing with others when he has been on 2) He has been in the middle of a hurricane the last couple of days (honestly out of any IRL excuse, this is a pretty damn reasonable one, especially considering TL has been down twice) He's basically been forced to post when he can 3) He hasn't gone out of his way defending his actions. Only addresses defending himself when accused. (no signs of a guilty conscience) 4) He has investigated meta of the players from previous games | ||
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debears
United States2516 Posts
The most valid point on him is his neutrality d1 btw, in case not clear | ||
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debears
United States2516 Posts
I went through a game of the UberNinja/Nackht mafiascum games. I looked at this game http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=23437&start=175 I find that he is likely UberNinja. His posting style (trolling, quoting and confusing) and timing (posting in clusters) ring true in the mafiascum game | ||
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debears
United States2516 Posts
Have you seen the mafiascum link Nackht posted and looked at any of his games? @Alsn Here are some thoughts about Roco/Inig to add to the not playing to wincon if they are town: Lurking is the optimal strategy for scum for a few reasons 1) Don't have to keep a straight story 2) If they make it to late game, it's hard to target them over actives due to lack of posting and "coin flip" chance as you guys have been saying. 3) Bored/noob townie excuse can cover them I feel like that is what is being done here. They still haven't contributed. Inig said he would be back today but still hasn't posted.....Roco- who knows? To lynch an active player over them, I feel like we need some pretty damn good reasoning since they are using optimal scum strategy. That said, I'll keep on reading filters. Alsn, you're next on my list | ||
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debears
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debears
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On November 01 2012 10:10 Mr. Cheesecake wrote: @Debears While I appreciate the defense, I think people have made up their minds on me for the most part. I'm that guy that spearheaded the lynch on the venerable Djodref----Inig said himself that he wants to "continue the legacy of Djo" by voting me or following whatever the hell Nack wants to do. Speaking of which, it seems like Nack has the lurkers (or at least Inig) around his little finger if I'm not mistaken. Inig even explicitly calls Nack town "bringing down the hammer of judgement on mafia". How is he so sure Nack is even town? I find it odd that both the lurkers come out of hiding to suddenly and unquestionably listen to this guy (by voting) and that Inig puts a firm townie stamp on his head. Doesn't make any sense to me. Eh. It started out as question the scummy things others have pointed out and turned into "that doesn't look scummy". Nevertheless, I'm going to finish with in an in depth look at Alsn's. If I come to a non-scummy conclusion, that will most likely mean nackht/roco/inig as my scumreads for today. and yeah. They're actions literally make no sense if they are town | ||
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debears
United States2516 Posts
On November 01 2012 23:27 Alsn wrote: Also, I'd like to state for the record that if I didn't see Roco as my only viable option, the actions so far this voting day has me thinking that the scum are debears and Cheese. They are both obviously here in the thread, yet the only thing they've done so far is post minor nit picks or "status updates" giving us next to nothing of real value. The last scum is still a mystery to me, it could be nackh, given his experience, but it could also be Roco, Inig or Dandel, I just don't have a good enough town read on anyone at this point. The conundrum I'm facing is, how the hell am I to get any one of them lynched even if I did have a massively good case on either of them? My reasons for thinking debears is scum:
1) Speculation. The fact is a blue got nked. The most logical assumption is a blue snipe. You even say other people are more guilty. So, this point holds no merit 2) I had made a case on inig. Inig's lynch had a lot of trouble gaining momentum. On the other hand, Dau0d's lynch came pretty easily 3) IRL - if you don't like it, fuck off 4) I voted Dandel. As you could see, I had looked at his filter after you made a case on him. I had a whole filter + meta telling me he's town. You seem to keep ignoring that. Also, I had found Djo scummy since d1. He had shown nothing that made me think he was townie after d1. 5) We have plenty of time right now. I'm looking into you, then I'll decide. We can consolidate five or so hours before the lynch. Instead of making stupid half-assed cases, maybe you should try to actually find scum? Also Alsn, whatever happened to this? On October 27 2012 01:30 Alsn wrote: Just one quick thing I'd like to point out. I can tell you right now that you probably shouldn't expect the kind of activity I had in my last game. I spent waaaaay too much time that game and it almost burned me out and I think I spent 6 hours just typing up a case at one point. That was probably also due to the unique circumstances of that game(only 1 scum actually posting at all causing me to be all paranoid about finding someone that actually looked scummy to me). That being said starting tomorrow evening my time I'll definitely spend more time than I have so far. You said you wouldn't spend as much time on this game as last in the beginning, but you've been showing alot more activity since then. You've got 9 pages of filter, whereas last game thru d2 you had 5. I'd say that's about the same thru day 2. Why is that? | ||
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debears
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debears
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D2 post http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=16708029 Hurricane comment -http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=16716203 | ||
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debears
United States2516 Posts
hurricane - http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=16716203 | ||
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debears
United States2516 Posts
What in the hell do you expect? You live in Sweden. Nackht lives in Germany. There are two fucking mega lurkers (one's acting confused and the other won't talk. Dandel had some fucking thing to do. And Cheese had something to do with classes (right?). It's timezones + IRL My schedule is fucking rough, but I manage to read and post when I can. Why are you assuming that everyone has bunches of time to spend on this game to be active when you are? | ||
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debears
United States2516 Posts
On November 02 2012 00:49 Alsn wrote: Also, one last thing. Considering the massive amount of posting both me and nackh did yesterday, I find it absolutely hilarious that both yours and Cheese' only thoughts about our discussions was to conclude that "yea, he's probably UberNinja" and that some of UberNinja's quotes were funny. Yeah, cuz you're fucking all over the place. You vote Nackht, saying he's scummy. You vote Roco. You say I'm scummy for bullshit reasons. You call Cheese scummy. You call Dandel scummy. You go running around in circles speculating and make the thread confusing as hell to read. Who don't you find scummy? Inig. Holy shit. Throwing shit at a wall and seeing what sticks | ||
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debears
United States2516 Posts
You find 5 people scummy. Unless there are 5 scum, that's not very helpful | ||
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debears
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On November 02 2012 01:01 Alsn wrote: I was asleep + away for twelve hours? My point was that if people wanted to comment on our conversation, there was ample time. Instead pretty much the only thing you guys said was that he's UberNinja and that you would read filters. Yes, lurking may be even more detrimental, but seeing as you guys actually did have time to post, I can at least call you out for seemingly not caring. Look, I'm just as pissed that no one else is saying anything either, but what the fuck am I supposed to do at this point? All I can do is try the best I can and hope to fuck that people actually listen to me. And if you guys are both town and the amount of work you put in at this point amount to what I consider to be almost nothing, what hope do I have? All things considered I'm still in favour of lynching Roco the lurker, for obvious reasons, because I have to assume that he's the scummiest of all. I think I've been pretty clear about that. No. That's bullshit. Just because I'm not here all active like you during the day cuz of classes and baseball doesn't mean I'm not putting in work. I've been looking through filters actually trying to figure this out when I can Oh yeah and did you forget last night was fucking Halloween? | ||
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debears
United States2516 Posts
On November 02 2012 02:58 nackhtjogger wrote: I don't understand what you have on roco. He's from a country I've never heard of before and upon seeing the amount of bullshit about having confidence and lurker lynch something (because as I said before I have reason to believe he doesn't know what the word policy even means) he says he assumes it's because scum is shitting all over the thread so he decides to counter that by not posting anything. To be honest from my perspective Roco has been the perfect partner in figuring this game out. There's absolutely nada that you could base an incriminating assumption upon. Now quickly change your vote to Dandel before the goddamn power goes out again. So you're saying roco, who is the essence of hardcore lurking (an optimal scum strategy btw) is the most town by purposely not contributing? | ||
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debears
United States2516 Posts
Yeah, it is optimal scum strategy. 1) They don't have to say anything/Keep their story straight 2) People use the defense "there's nothing there to say they are scum" 3) They don't form any type of associations with their other teammates 4) They give scum an easy bus late game That said, I will consolidate. The worst possible outcome for us is a no lynch ##Vote Dandel | ||
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debears
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##Vote Inig GG boyssssssss. Perfect's for life! Victory laps! 20, No. Make that 30. That's a dirty 30 to quote Kush "Scumteam 4 lyfe" | ||
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that endgame post thrawn...perfect recap of scum end of day | ||
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debears
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I almost claimed Dhalism as my VT name....Wow that could've been bad | ||
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debears
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debears
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Btw next time when there are two lurkers sitting there and you are vig, shoot the lurkers | ||
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debears
United States2516 Posts
click all. Then click end on your comp. Will take you to the front | ||
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debears
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10-23-2012 09:33 PM ET (US) don't be dumb, got it. also, been thinking: newbie XXX is coming up. We should get a bunch of really good players to analyze the shit out of it and have a second XXX analysis in honour of Ver. Lol...^^this agreed | ||
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debears
United States2516 Posts
10-27-2012 09:33 AM ET (US) the funny thing is, we redistributed the jailkeeper role from the modkilled player to daoud :p ^^^^^^ LOLLL | ||
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debears
United States2516 Posts
The sylverfyre nk was not a bluesnipe | ||
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debears
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10-28-2012 02:28 PM ET (US) Hmm not sure if that scum team makes sense as a whole. Dandel and CC have both been going after Djo. CC has Dandel and Djo as his top two scum reads. Dandel + CC makes sense. Djo looks scummy but doesn't really fit. Requires too much of an elaborate bussing plan Scum team is actually: Dandel + CC + Debears. ^^well done SDM | ||
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debears
United States2516 Posts
thrawnnnn 10-29-2012 07:56 PM ET (US) if these guys make me write one more night post.... ^^^^lol | ||
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debears
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10-31-2012 07:50 AM ET (US) Debears has been saying a lot of weird shit. His meta reads, his town read on Dandel, his analysis of the d1 voting, his rants about confidence etc. Question is if town Debears would say so much craziness. I don't necessarily think bad reasoning signifies scum. It's particularly easy for us to call him bad because we've already been given Dandel and figured out Cake, what's going on in the thread is a different world. That said, him not being at all suspicious of Dandel's claim or Cake's non-committal posts is scummy. I wouldn't expect this out of town Debears. Now he's announced he's going to make a case on Cake in 12 hours. Perhaps because he doesn't want anyone to steal his thunder, if he's gonna bus of course he wants some town cred. It's not scummy, but pretty null. If Debears is scum I'd expect him to bus someone at this point, since both Cake and Dandel are in danger. One thing which makes me less sure Debears is scum: Would scum Debears really jump to Dandel's immediate defense? As scum it's really hard to predict how town will react to that claim. Debears commented on the claim immediately. Putting yourself out there by saying it makes a lot of sense is not something I'd expect from scum. Jogger on the other hand completely avoided it. Why did everyone in the qt think I'm that bad at town :/ | ||
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debears
United States2516 Posts
My shit was so stupid though that people wouldn't have thought i was scum! | ||
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debears
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Alsn - you had me scared past d2 lol Hapa - agreed. Guess it's the inclination for the perfect that really messed up my decision making d2/d3 *That and not being experienced/good :D | ||
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debears
United States2516 Posts
Believe it or not having Inig and Roco made the d3 extremely hard for us. We couldn't really push them cuz nothing was there. We didn't want to push you or nackht since the lurkers seemed to love you two | ||
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debears
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Yeah as i got further in the obs qt i noticed ppl saying "he's not this dumb as town" @prom Although it was not too much like my town meta, i am considering trying to become a more aggressive player over all. I definitely need work on it though Tnx guys for the input | ||
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debears
United States2516 Posts
People were largely ignoring any of my posts d2 Literally only cheese actually addressed points in my cases. It was kinda nice | ||
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