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I need to sleep soon, but I'll stay here for a while after this post in case anyone wants to know something. I'm seriously hoping that I will have more than one person to talk to tomorrow cause if not, I have no idea what more I can possibly do.
Right now I feel like my only real choice is to vote for someone who would give town a stronger position the next day. Given that I'm not sure enough on anyone else, the only reasonable argument I can make at this point is that in the case that Roco is town, his unwillingness to even post means that I can't count on him doing the right thing even if I do figure out who the scum really are. In the only other case(that he's scum) then yea, we bought ourselves another day.
Unless someone has a damn good reason for why they want someone else lynched, I'll consider not voting Roco at this point to be a pretty damn anti-town move.
##Vote Roco69
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And sorry about not counting you as "someone to talk to" debears but quite frankly I've had exactly one person to talk to for the almost 12 hours that I've been home so far today.
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On November 01 2012 07:41 Alsn wrote:
To your last point, I see the logic in bullying Djod into claiming vigi instead of simply saying "I'm not SK". I can also see how that would make him less of a priority since I definitely agree that scum would be pretty focused on finding a potential SK after seeing 2 NKs. I don't however see how that must mean that they in fact were bullying Djod for information. It's entirely possible that Djod starting to speculate about night kills made townies suspect him of having extra information. In fact, that's what I've been saying all along with regards to Dandel vs Cheese claiming such drastically different conclusions about Djod(scum or SK).
I see it the other way around. Djo caught scum's attention specifically because he kept speculating about night kills, which could suggest he's probing for a different kind of information.
I don't see why town would pick on it because it was speculation, right? He was too good at it? Doesn't make sense from my perspective.
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@Alsn
My FOS on you got seriously juicier. I will make a draft and publish it tomorrow hopefully.
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On November 01 2012 08:17 nackhtjogger wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2012 07:41 Alsn wrote:
To your last point, I see the logic in bullying Djod into claiming vigi instead of simply saying "I'm not SK". I can also see how that would make him less of a priority since I definitely agree that scum would be pretty focused on finding a potential SK after seeing 2 NKs. I don't however see how that must mean that they in fact were bullying Djod for information. It's entirely possible that Djod starting to speculate about night kills made townies suspect him of having extra information. In fact, that's what I've been saying all along with regards to Dandel vs Cheese claiming such drastically different conclusions about Djod(scum or SK). I see it the other way around. Djo caught scum's attention specifically because he kept speculating about night kills, which could suggest he's probing for a different kind of information. I don't see why town would pick on it because it was speculation, right? He was too good at it? Doesn't make sense from my perspective. I'd still like to know how you explain that no matter how you slice it, if I am to buy your argument about bullying then at the very least one of your targets you have pegged as scum must be town.
You say there was bullying of Djod for SK information, the people I can find any evidence of doing that were Cheese(who later did claim that he meant he thought Djod was scum, but until Rad claimed vigi that wasn't clear at all), Dandel and then later Inig when he voted Dandel. So three people were supposedly bullying Djod for a vigi claim by alluding to him being SK.
Yet now you say that your FOS against me got juicier? How does that fit into your picture?
Even worse, consider what has happened today so far. No one is even participating in the game except for you and me(and I suppose Dandel tomorrow if he meant what he said about being away for today only). Cheese and debears did have a minor chat yet what debears said wasn't even true. debears stated that he was going to make a big case on Cheese, yet the only thing he has done for the 20 hours following that statement is point out minor(to my eyes anyway) inconsistencies in what I've said so far. If you were town, I'd think you would come to the same conclusion that I have, which is that if no one else is even playing, I need to trust you and you need to trust me and we hope that the remaining town at least reads and votes with us. Sure, that's about the weakest argument for my innocence that I could possibly make, but it's still true.
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Hm, just realised debears did say that he would be making his "longass case on CC" after classes today. Supposing he got home when he started posting earlier then yea, he hasn't technically lied yet.
Even if he later produces his "longass case", for the last 24 hours only three out of seven players has done anything whatsoever.
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@Alsn
Yeah Alsn honestly haven't had the time I thought I would today in terms of writing it. I have close to an hour of so to write it. I'll probably just post a summary of what I found since I didn't find any thing that was solely scum motivated. What I mainly saw is that most of the accusations against him aren't strong by any means.
Will post the rest later.
Also, Alsn I have found your start to today alarming. Since you are actually active, it's more important to get answers right away instead of going after afkers.
@everyone
I'm going to agree with Alsn, that, most likely, those who have been lurking the whole game, and continue to, are looking scummy as time goes on with no comment.
In other words, Roco and Inig are the ones I'm mainly talking about.
@Cheese
Why were you gone day 1 before the lynch? Why have you been gone today?
As I recall, you said you would be back on.
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Still here for a teensy bit longer. Am I right in interpreting your post as accusing me of "going after afkers", yet agreeing with me that Roco is a logical lynch candidate? That seems a bit odd to me.
I'm assuming your line about my start being "alarming" is with regards to my aggressive stance on Dandel, but I don't understand how the rest of that line fits into that. Get which answers right away?
I think my reasons for suspecting Dandel at the time should be pretty clear, I didn't think there were any good reasons for why my argument wouldn't mean there was a pretty high chance of Dandel actually being scum.
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@Debears
Day 1 I had said that "something grave had come up" and that I'd be gone. This occurrence was my dad blacking out in the bathroom and hitting his head on the sink--so I took him for medical care. Luckily no major injury. As for today, I spent the entirety of last night writing two papers, I caught ~1 1/2 hours of shut-eye, went to class, got home and fell asleep from around 3p.m-7:00ish (~1:15 mins ago). Trick-or-treaters woke me up. gg sleep schedule.
If you have any questions feel free to ask them now. I have some thoughts I'll share in a moment once I make some dinner (breakfast?).
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Oh well, I guess I'll go sleep. I sincerely hope that Inig and Roco show up and that you've actually done some talking to them by the time I wake up.
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On November 01 2012 09:21 Alsn wrote: Oh well, I guess I'll go sleep. I sincerely hope that Inig and Roco show up and that you've actually done some talking to them by the time I wake up.
I predict a little snippet by Inig, and I bet roco just plops down his vote with nothing else.
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On November 01 2012 09:17 Alsn wrote: Still here for a teensy bit longer. Am I right in interpreting your post as accusing me of "going after afkers", yet agreeing with me that Roco is a logical lynch candidate? That seems a bit odd to me.
I'm assuming your line about my start being "alarming" is with regards to my aggressive stance on Dandel, but I don't understand how the rest of that line fits into that. Get which answers right away?
I think my reasons for suspecting Dandel at the time should be pretty clear, I didn't think there were any good reasons for why my argument wouldn't mean there was a pretty high chance of Dandel actually being scum.
I wasn't getting on you about accusing lurkers. I was saying I didn't make the cheese post yet since I wanted to get some answers from you first. That was a misplaced line lol.
I'll reread your arguments again (for like the 5th time). There's so much speculation and you seem to keep going around in circles. I feel like you are ignoring looking at his whole game and actual actions, his meta, and such for speculation to accuse him.
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ebwop
and using specuation in place of it to accuse him
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A summary of cheese's actions
While looking through cheese's filter a couple of times last night, I was looking for 1) the points that others pointed out about his neutralness and 2) Other things that would indicate scum (behavior and such) After going over it, I have concluded that I don't find anything damning and the original points addressed at Cheese were weak.
The original points as I recall: 1)Neutrality 2)Sheeping Dau0d/Djo cases 3)Generally Blending In - look at unspoilered text below in the bold
I believe these arguments fail to look at the context of what happened around what Cheese did, especially with these 3 points. Bold numbers 1 and 2 in spoiler correspond to the points
+ Show Spoiler +1)Neutrality was most definitely true for d1 for cheese. He had a tendency of stating the obvious in terms of policy early on. As time progressed, his suspicions moved to 1)Djo and 2) Inig. He found his suspicions on Inig alleviated shortly.
However, he did stay focused on Djo. He pursued unanswer questions from Djo (reading the thread). He put input on my case on specific parts, quoting which he agreed and disagreed with (as I recall very few people in this game have done so) and saying why. He attempted to make an ill-founded smiley meta case on Djo, but rescinded after being pointed out why he was wrong, but stood by the rest of his concerns of Djo.
He had further suspicions on Djo due to Djo's refusal to change his views on policy and Djo's display of confusion.
Before the lynch, he went MIA for a while and came back to the thread with a little time before lynch, switching his vote off Djo and onto Dau0d (explained his reasoning for voting Dau0d over Inig). His reasons were that he did not want to waste a vote on someone not getting lynched. Others had asked him to move his vote off Djo.
So, for d1, nothing special, nothing that sticks out. Neutral. However, also remember that Cheese's top scumread was Djo. Djo's lynch never gained momemtun. Everyone wanted to take a wait a see approach. That could explain the rest of his d1 (except the afk).
N2 - night 2 was a little bit of a different story. He became more active with the fill in of Kush. One thing I saw that he did was give kush a meta read on me. He had not been asked in any way to do so. Kush was rampaging about my meta, yet the only one to do a meta read was Cheese. This, in my eyes, is a town tell. He went beyond this game with his investigation. Also, he found kush's scumslip about nk's from kush's previous games before I even did, when I actually played that game.
Something I noticed by Djo is that he defended kush against bad cases (rad's pre-game talk case).
Also, during this time, Djo was attacking Cheese for Cheese's voteswitch at the end of day 1 off of Djo. The problem with that accusation, though, was that Djo himself asked Cheese to not waste the vote. Djo continued to argue this point for a while.
Djo's accusations over a bad point led Cheese to believe Djo was scum during N2. He makes a formal case against Djo with his own points.
D2 - 2) From d1 on, Djo never made himself seem town by his comments. Pretty much everyone was saying "Djo is scum". In n1, Djo pushed Cheese's suspicions with Djo's constant attack over an invalid point. Cheese keeps his vote on Djo, stating the "95% scum, 5% SK" argument, which, based off of Djo's actions in the night, and how Cheese's suspicion seemed to keep building, make sense. Cheese was also the second to vote Djo. Also, with the case he made, I wouldn't case his suspicion of Djo "sheeping" after the interactions between the two n1.
Meanwhile, after Dandel flamed on, Cheese stated that he was willing to vote Dandel is Dandel refused to defend himself and keep flaming.
Around this point, he said the hurricane was moving in.
After a while, he posted a bit on Inig's "blending in". Also, he noticed how I somehow managed to quote his post in the middle of my Djo case while addressing the other points in the case. The quote from CC that I acccidentally put in the Djo case was in a spoiler, meaning that Djo was pretty likely reading my long case. Him reading the thread was a common theme that showed up in his filter.
At the end of day2, he became more suspicious after Roco's and Inig's votes on Dandel without reasoning. He makes a final statment about Djo being scum, and disappears (saying it was the hurricane).
Alright, that's the whole context of his posting.
My thoughts on why I don't see much scum evidence 1) He's actively reading the thread and discussing with others when he has been on 2) He has been in the middle of a hurricane the last couple of days (honestly out of any IRL excuse, this is a pretty damn reasonable one, especially considering TL has been down twice) He's basically been forced to post when he can 3) He hasn't gone out of his way defending his actions. Only addresses defending himself when accused. (no signs of a guilty conscience) 4) He has investigated meta of the players from previous games
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Ebwop
The most valid point on him is his neutrality d1 btw, in case not clear
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On the lurkers...
Roco is nothing more than a glorified coin flip. Hasn't said anything the entire game and is skating by on vote posts. If this weren't lylo, I'm almost certain we'd be dog piling on top of him. Nothing he has done is indicative as even remotely pro-town.
As for Inig, I found his play to be scummy because of semi-lurking, posting little content, and sheeping the popular cases. He comes in the thread and gives us some excuse about emotional burdens and ragequitting. Suddenly, everyone doesn't seem to even consider the possibility of him flipping red. I'm not discounting how true his claim is -- but that would be one sad way to lose if he is scum playing the simultaneous noob town / emotional card.
Concerning Dandel...
Ugh, I don't know what to think. Claiming to have RB'd Inig... He, himself could lying, maybe Inig is lying. Maybe both are telling the truth. Seems like a 50-50 chance that he's scum, and I'm finding it difficult to get behind a Dandel lynch for the same reasons I couldn't d2: there is just too much riding on assumption / speculation.
On Nack
I said somewhere before that he's trying to "choke us with his experience". Trying to come in this thread and assert his authority by assuring us that he's really good at this game, knows who the scum are, and is most definitely town. His case against me is based purely on WIFOM and I'm not even sure where he's coming from on my "scumbuddy" Alsn. I invoke the words of the late Kush to assist me:
On September 28 2012 09:01 kushm4sta wrote: Sorry but who appointed this asshole boss?
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On November 01 2012 09:47 debears wrote:@AlsnI went through a game of the UberNinja/Nackht mafiascum games. I looked at this game http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=23437&start=175I find that he is likely UberNinja. His posting style (trolling, quoting and confusing) and timing (posting in clusters) ring true in the mafiascum game
Just glanced over that, "this vote is lolcakes" made me giggle. To come here and claim "I've got a trolly meta, no worries it's all good" is pretty rich, however.
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@Cheese
Have you seen the mafiascum link Nackht posted and looked at any of his games?
@Alsn
Here are some thoughts about Roco/Inig to add to the not playing to wincon if they are town:
Lurking is the optimal strategy for scum for a few reasons 1) Don't have to keep a straight story 2) If they make it to late game, it's hard to target them over actives due to lack of posting and "coin flip" chance as you guys have been saying. 3) Bored/noob townie excuse can cover them
I feel like that is what is being done here. They still haven't contributed. Inig said he would be back today but still hasn't posted.....Roco- who knows? To lynch an active player over them, I feel like we need some pretty damn good reasoning since they are using optimal scum strategy.
That said, I'll keep on reading filters. Alsn, you're next on my list
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