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@Djo
About the previous case. I believe this was the most important part and you didn't really address it
"Feeling townie vibes from someone doesn't mean I consider him as town". What does this mean???????
So I'm townie to you but not at the same time? This is a weak statement that is a contradiction in a mafia-oriented way to his play. By saying that I have townie vibes but am not town is keeping a door open for suddenly accusing me later. Who wants to keep an open door for sudden accusation on any person in the game? Mafia."
Also, why were you so adamant to say that you didn't think I was town, when you have recently stated that you pretty much did ("townie vibes") and most definitely acted like it? If you were town, I feel that you would stick by your read instead of flip flopping when someone gets on you about it
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@Sylverfyre
Djo provided us with some comprehensive quotes about your interaction with him. I'm inclined to agree that a few of your reasons aren't specific enough. Granted, my vote is still on him at this point--I'd like to know, specifically, what are your biggest scum tells concerning Djo?
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On October 27 2012 02:10 debears wrote:
@Djo
About the previous case. I believe this was the most important part and you didn't really address it
"Feeling townie vibes from someone doesn't mean I consider him as town". What does this mean???????
So I'm townie to you but not at the same time? This is a weak statement that is a contradiction in a mafia-oriented way to his play. By saying that I have townie vibes but am not town is keeping a door open for suddenly accusing me later. Who wants to keep an open door for sudden accusation on any person in the game? Mafia."
Also, why were you so adamant to say that you didn't think I was town, when you have recently stated that you pretty much did ("townie vibes") and most definitely acted like it? If you were town, I feel that you would stick by your read instead of flip flopping when someone gets on you about it
@debears
Ok. I understand why you are perturbed by this sentence. I've been typing too fast and forgot to add something so it doesn't bring the right sense anymore.
Let me bring some context to it and explain you where I have failed. Please look a my whole quote in the spoiler.
+ Show Spoiler +On October 26 2012 01:57 Djodref wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2012 01:36 Rad wrote:On October 26 2012 01:31 Djodref wrote:On October 26 2012 01:24 debears wrote:On October 26 2012 01:10 Clarity_nl wrote:
@debears
You've used the word confidence an excessive amount of times. When someone mentioned day 1 policy lynches you immediately dismissed the idea. In fact, whenever anyone suggested something you turned it down, pushing your idea of "if you have a read, push it hard"
Policy lynching on day 1 exists for a reason. Lurkers hurt the town, whether they are mafia or town. If no one takes action mafia will win. Town needs to be organized and decisive, yet you are suggesting to basically follow your gut and push hard.
You follow that up by voting for Rad WAAAAAAY too early in the day.
You are advocating chaos.
If something is fishy, or a comment seems off, make a read or ask a question about it, but big bold statements like "be confident guys!!!" don't actually mean anything.
##FoS debears Do you see the contradiction in that statment clarity/ You want town to be decisive, yet when I am (by pursuing a scumread) you FOS me for it? Are you reading the damn thread? The confidence thing isn't my only contribution. Figure it out Ugh Djo Y u answering questions addressed to me??? I'm still feeling bad for tunneling until death last game  I even didn't have the balls to state that I had changed my mind about you at the end. As I feel some townie vibes from you in this game, I thought I could at least defend you this one time. debears <3 Also debears it's stuff like this (which he's done before in this thread, if I remember correctly) that just make me raise an eyebrow and give thoughts that you're both scum. He's so confident you're town already?! Because you're being super active and aggressive? Maybe I'm just paranoid but I'm finding it really hard to believe anyone is town so far. @Djo, you're coming across, to me at least, as very "happy go lucky". Like, you've figured it all out as town last newbie game, and you're back now as town again but 100% more confident and ready to take down scum! Let's do this my friend debears, who is clearly also town! That's the vibe I'm getting from you and it feels really fake. @RadLast game newbie game I was totally wrong with all my reads. But I'm not going to let it affect my faith in my ability to find scum. Moreover, even if I'm wrong, I'm giving mafia less room to hide if I take strong a clear stances about some players. I don't have strong scumread at the moment but I would prefer to confront people in a very direct way if I start to be suspicious of them. Because that's how I think I can generate the most useful information. It seems natural for you but it wasn't at all in my previous newbie game, so I want to encourage people to have this state of mind. This is all I'm thinking about when I'm talking about confidence (so it's not exactly confidence in your reads). On a side note, if you have understood that I've called debears town, I think you have misinterpreted my post. Feeling townie vibes from someone doesn't mean I consider him as town. It's a feeling I have from I read in his post (similar to the last game we have played together where he was townie) and his general behavior in his game. Believe or not, being aggressive like this early game benefits town. Because it allows us to have constructed discussion...
I did this spot while answering Rad. At this point, it was clear that I had a beginning of a town read on you, anyone could have seen it by my actions. Rad also picked it up and said: "Let's do this (with) my friend debears, who is clearly also town!"
I wanted to clarify that my read on you was not that sure. So I've tried to say "Feeling townie vibes from someone doesn't mean considering him totally town"
I forgot to say this totally. Please check it again and see how my whole post makes more sense if you had this totally to my sentence.
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On October 27 2012 01:53 sylverfyre wrote:
Addendum - it's obvious that NOW Djo's answered some accusations, but it took a long time and he is complaining a lot more loudly about "having been answering accusations instead of making them" an awful lot, when I don't think he really has been spending that much time answering accusations.
@sylver
I have 7 pages in my filter. Do you think they are all fluff ?
Believe me, I've spent some time defending myself...
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No, I think that most of it was accusing other people. Accusing other people is by no means fluff, but it also isn't responding to accusations.
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On October 27 2012 01:56 Mr. Cheesecake wrote:Show nested quote +On October 27 2012 01:17 Djodref wrote:On October 27 2012 00:30 Mr. Cheesecake wrote:@ Djo On October 26 2012 13:42 Djodref wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On October 26 2012 12:50 Mr. Cheesecake wrote:On your case Debears: You've reiterated some of what's been said, or what I have observed already. You did present some new information, though. In particular, the following quote that I cannot agree with: Show nested quote +On October 26 2012 12:03 debears wrote:
@Rad
Last game newbie game I was totally wrong with all my reads. But I'm not going to let it affect my faith in my ability to find scum. Moreover, even if I'm wrong, I'm giving mafia less room to hide if I take strong a clear stances about some players.
I don't have strong scumread at the moment but I would prefer to confront people in a very direct way if I start to be suspicious of them. Because that's how I think I can generate the most useful information. It seems natural for you but it wasn't at all in my previous newbie game, so I want to encourage people to have this state of mind. This is all I'm thinking about when I'm talking about confidence (so it's not exactly confidence in your reads).
On a side note, if you have understood that I've called debears town, I think you have misinterpreted my post. Feeling townie vibes from someone doesn't mean I consider him as town. It's a feeling I have from I read in his post (similar to the last game we have played together where he was townie) and his general behavior in his game.
Believe or not, being aggressive like this early game benefits town. Because it allows us to have constructed discussion...
"Feeling townie vibes from someone doesn't mean I consider him as town". What does this mean??????? So I'm townie to you but not at the same time? This is a weak statement that is a contradiction in a mafia-oriented way to his play. By saying that I have townie vibes but am not town is keeping a door open for suddenly accusing me later. Who wants to keep an open door for sudden accusation on any person in the game? Mafia. I have a little problem with this notion. You can definitely get a "town vibe" from somebody but not fully consider them town. Always being suspicious and vigilant, especially with no hard evidence like on d1, is wise. I don't think this is a valid point, to be honest. Despite this, Djodref has a mountain against him. One of your new points really stuck out to me: Show nested quote +On October 26 2012 12:03 debears wrote:On October 26 2012 01:01 Djodref wrote:
@sylver
I've explained why I've answered this question ("are you mafia") already. Could you please re-read my filter and tell me if you are satisfied or not with my explanations ?
I don't care if I look clean or not, my principal concern is to find the mafia. And, for your information, I'm not tunneling you, just putting you under some pressure. The only player I have a FoS on is Inig as for now.
I'm accepting your explanations and I would like you to tell us what you think about Inig. I'm insisting on him because mafia players have this tendency to semi-lurk while looking like they contribute.
Regarding Rad, I'm trusting debears to take care of him right now ^^ I'm following their exchanges with great interest. He's "trusting me to take care of Rad". Wow. Why the disinterest in pursuing him? Why is he willing to lay back and let me take the reins on accusing him? Why would a townie want another townie to "take care of" pursuing someone? Scum, on the other hand, want townies to do the dirty work for them. If Djodref really thinks Rad is scum, why let someone else pursue? If you have a read, go for it. Don't beat around the bush and go off into the distance. Being multi-focused is acceptable, it's confusing why Djo would just "let debears take care of it". It makes no sense, unless he somehow knows Debears is town. In terms of the scumslip, I'm still thinking that the reference to Do0ud being town is a scum tell. His explanation for it, while being entirely plausible, fails to convince me whatsoever. His saying "my main concern is finding mafia" also doesn't sit well. The constant asking for info on Ingi / diverting attention, his useless "are you mafia?" question that I pointed out earlier, the inability to adequately answer some of the accusations/questions thrown at him. It doesn't add up. Actually, it does add up. I'm thinking he's scum. I've had a FoS on you for quite some time now, Djodref. Time to upgrade it. ##Vote: Djodref Please specify which accusations/questions I couldn't address (please refer to the part in bold font in the spoiler). I'll try to answer adequately to them this time. The text you put in bold regarding my thoughts on you was, specifically, a reference to the point at which Rad was asking you about not changing your arguments on policy lynching. + Show Spoiler +On October 26 2012 08:29 Djodref wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2012 08:22 Rad wrote:On October 26 2012 08:13 Djodref wrote:On October 26 2012 08:07 Clarity_nl wrote:On October 26 2012 07:54 Djodref wrote:On October 26 2012 02:26 Clarity_nl wrote:On October 26 2012 02:23 Djodref wrote:
I have to go to bed so I'm not going to be able to see the case against me. Sorry, Alsn...
@dandel
I understand your stance about policy lynch. I guess it's just that we have different experience from our previous games. I liked your explanations but I'm not going to change my mind about it. Moreover, if we have to go for a policy lynch today, I would prefer to lynch a lurker like Inig (semi-lurker) than a complete lurker. Could you please expand upon this? @ClarityI was talking with Dandel about policy lynch, especially the fact that you have to agree early about it or not. I don't think it's good to establish a policy early and I'm not going to change my mind, even if dandel has good arguments for it. Why did you pick on this sentence ? As you can see I basically insta-posted this response when you made your post. Reason being it's a bit wishy-washy. "I agree with you but I'm not gonna change my mind" It doesn't add up dandel has a stance about policy lynching and I have another one. We both have arguments to support our stances, his are good and mine are good (I would say that they are better). I guess it's our different experience which is really defining our opinion about it. I can't think of any good reason a townie would have to be completely unopen to changing their opinion on something regardless of the arguments presented. Worst case scenario for a townie is you're just not convinced by the argument so you keep your original opinion, then someone's not happy that they couldn't convince you. Seems like a scummy stance. The scummy reasoning would go something like "I need to be consistent, and if someone changes my opinion on something, I'll look inconsistent, so I'm going to just make it clear that I'm not going to change my mind on this so it's dropped."That's what you sound like with that statement djo. @RadI don't care, it's an argument about policy lynch. I don't even understand why you are putting such an interest in this. I'm not saying that I'm not going to change my mind about a player or a lynch or something important... What do you think about Inig's posts by the way ? On October 26 2012 09:23 Djodref wrote:
@Rad
by the way,
His argument is good by my argument is better. Not going to change my mind.
Are you satisfied ? The point that I find most interesting is when Rad says the bolded portion. Rad thinks it's scum mentality. Your only address on the issue is essentially that "I don't care if I look scummy, this discussion is pointless, and my arguement is better". Why are you so unwavering about your opinion in this matter? @ CheeseI have missed your post. Regarding this point, I've have misunderstood Rad's arguments against me. I thought he was calling me out on this point while he was bringing the my stance on a more general level. That's why I found it totally stupid and I didn't want to discuss about it anymore. I've tried to address it in two previous posts. I did not have feedback on the last one so tell me what do you think of it. first one On October 26 2012 14:14 Djodref wrote:
@Rad
I'm not saying that I'm not going to change my opinion on anything. For example, I've already changed my opinion about you (from scummy to light townie). I'm saying that I'm not going to change my opinion on a particular point. I didn't want to discuss about it anymore because I don't think that this particular point is relevant at all.
This particular point is when to agree on applying lurker policy lynch. I was discussing it with dandel. If you have something else in mind, then I would like you to tell me exactly what it is.
dandel would have liked us to agree to follow a strong lurker policy for this game at the beginning of D1. He presented his reasons for it and I found them totally acceptable, I even admitted them they were good. He has backed up his arguments with experience.
But I disagree with such a strategy because I firmly believe that it is quite easy for the mafia to avoid a lynch for lurking, pushing some mislynch on lurky townies and use this strategy for their benefit. And I'm not going to change my mind about it. second one On October 26 2012 20:53 Djodref wrote:On October 26 2012 14:34 Rad wrote:On October 26 2012 14:21 Djodref wrote:
@Rad
So your main concern about me was I said that I wouldn't change my mind ?
Do you have other concerns ?
Did you understand I was only speaking about a particular point (agreeing that a strict lurker policy should be part of our strategy) ? My original concerns came from the "confidence" ordeal from before. As I found with debears, that can turn out to be a huge ordeal and I'll address it again if I feel the need to. My concerns about your unwillingness to change your stance on something regardless of the arguments provided are still there. To me, as I've stated, this feels like a scummy perspective. I can't see a good reason for a townie to not be open to changing their opinions on something based on further arguments. "No no no not going to budge on this!" feels scummy. "Let me hear your points, ok, I disagree and here's why" feels townie. It was the way you handled the questions. It doesn't matter that it was about just a particular point, or even if that point mattered in the end, but that you were so specific about never changing your opinion on it regardless of the arguments provided. It didn't feel like a townie move, so I can only suspect scum, but furthermore, you've dodged my questions until now. Why? If you can so simply answer them now, why didn't you do it before? You clearly saw them, acknowledged them, but didn't answer them. Instead, you said you were done with me. Going to have to look over all this in more depth tomorrow as I'm getting tired and need to wind down. @RadI gave more thoughts about your post and I've decided that I should try to address your concern in a better way than my last attempt. I understand that I need to answer the 2 following questions, please correct me if I am wrong 1)Why I was not open to change my stance ? 2)Why I was dodging this question at first ? 1) I wasn't open to change my stance because I think that enforcing a strict lurker policy is a bad strategy for town. I was quite stubborn on this point because I have seem some games where people forgot to scumhunt because they were relying on the policy too much. Except for this point, I believe that I can be quite open minded. I would go as far as to reconsider my position on the policy, given the incredible amount of lurkers that we have in this game. 2)I've been dodging your questions because I didn't understand the nature of your concern. I thought you were asking me about this particular point which I thought I had already addressed. That's why I gave you the same answer again and again. But I understand now that you were more concerned about my general state of mind which would lead me to not discuss anything. I wanted to end this discussion with dandel about the policy because it didn't really matter for me to agree with him or not. For me, disagreeing on policy is natural. What really counts is the general consistency of a player and whether or not he gives good reasons when he changes his mind. I felt like we were done talking about this with dandel and I wanted to close the subject while giving my final stance about it. After all, this is only policy discussion, which should be less relevant than scumhunting discussion. @ Djo That is exactly explanation I was looking for, thank you bringing it to the forefront. The second quote is a bit bulky... Read the part I bolded. If you were worried about people not scumhunting, why be so stubborn? You could have conceded your position on it and people would have moved on to scumhunt. I don't think people simply "forget" to scumhunt due to a lurker policy. That's my concern with your decision: If you want people to scumhunt, why get people riled up over your defense and divert attention from scumhunting?
@ Dandel What's all this stuff about you being confused and unsure? Yeah, the thread is jampacked with goodies concerning multiple participants, but that's to be expected. Don't try to play the "confused" card. It's almost as bad as the "noobie-card"
@Cheese
I really believed Rad was overreacting to something minor. I was discussing something quite irrelevant to scumhunting with dandel and I wanted to close the discussion. I thought I was wasting my time on this point and I made it clear that I was done discussing it. So I said I was not going to change my mind about it.
I didn't understand at all why this was so important for him. I didn't understand why my explanations where not convenient for him. And honestly I didn't want to spend more time on policy arguments. So I've tried to shut it down. It was a mistake because Rad is aslo quite stubborn 
The problem is that I was also provoking Alsn around the same time so I guess it didn't help my image at all.
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On October 27 2012 00:30 kushm4sta wrote:Hi guys I read the thread (not super close towards the end though because I wanted to finish). I think we should lynch Daoud. He is posting just enough to be considered not a lurker. This level of activity is exactly what you want to lynch d1. He catches Djo in the classic "scumslip," which does not always indicate scum, but that's not important. "Why did you call me town djo?" Then he says oh there might be a sk I guess my point is invalid. Makes no sense. Bringing it up in the first place is a null tell, because it's an easy catch. But dropping it for such a stupid reason, that is scummy. This is his most significant post so far: Show nested quote +On October 26 2012 22:41 da0ud wrote:
Ebwop : sorry phone posting. Ill finsih the post :
Deb and rad have been so active and poking at each otjers that they actually look very townie to me. Pushing ideas, bringing content, putting pressure.
Talking about smileyDjo he has put a lot of pressure on people. Asking open questions etc. For having played a game with him where he played to nice lovable newbie card, I believe he is trying to step up and actually be a leader for town. I put him 90% town.
I totally hate the lurkers who actually do not post anything and hide to avoid potential suspicions. Id rather lynch lurking townie first day who doesn't help get info and push others to scumslip.
If scum are among active player we will have time to hunt them down. They will contradict themselves.
And we have semi lurkers like roco or blending in. Which are pretty much as bad for town.
I would like to put my vote on Ini at the moment cause roco seems like a total newbie trying to stand out.
##Vote Ini So he gives off some town reads. Djo is 90% town... what the fuck. I don't see how you can think that after playing last game with him. Asking open questions makes him 90% town? ok Show nested quote +
I totally hate the lurkers who actually do not post anything and hide to avoid potential suspicions. Id rather lynch lurking townie first day who doesn't help get info and push others to scumslip.
This is such a weird time to talk about lurkers, unless he is giving that as his reason for voting Ini, but Ini isn't even close to the biggest lurker. So why is he voting for ini? 2 words: "Blending in." Sick case bro.
##vote da0ud
Kush,
I do not agree with your points against me.
First, you catch me for doing just what is needed not to be a lurker. I did explain before your post why I was posting few messages only. I am out of town (or country : in macau gambling in casinos). It is hence very hard for me to follow in a timely manner the thread. I need to find 3G and phone post. I still wanted to post and give my opinion because otherwise yes I could hv voted myself for lurking which I don't wanna be doing. Ill be back in HK tomorrow night for me.
2) yes I caught the slip because it was addressed to me. It could be important at some point though. And you should remember from my last game I like to point out that kind of tells. Me saying he would not be 100% sure I am town even if he was scum is valid. There is a small probablity there is a SK hence he cannot discount that fact and could not tell with 100% confidence I am town.
3) you are saying what the fuck on my read on djo and make the exact same case after. I said I believe he is town because he is trying to change his meta. He is trying to be aggressive this game to get his targets to react and potentially slip. I would not lynch Djo.
4) I maintain my point on Ini. I cannot elaborate even though I would like to have a nice conputer screen to do so. To me he is still semi lurking. Replied to accusations by giving town reads. Says he would put a vote on dandel and ends up putting it on imcasey.
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On October 27 2012 02:42 sylverfyre wrote:
No, I think that most of it was accusing other people. Accusing other people is by no means fluff, but it also isn't responding to accusations.
sylver
Ok, I got your point. What do you think about my defense against your points from your comprehensive list so far ?
Anything else I could say ?
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I think at the pace Djo is posting it should be easy to get a valid scum read on him at some point in the near future if he is actually scum.
He is still quite newbie-ish and trying to change his meta. He felt uncomfortable last game when targeted as mafia and I would expect him to feel the same pressure this game again. I think he is open and provocative when someone attacks him or when he attacks someone.
One thing djo. Why are you changing your mind on Ini? I think voting and unvoting and voting again creates too much unnecessary noise. If u were not going to keep your vote you could have voted later.
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I'm going to bed right now (for real this time^^). I'll sleep for few hours then come back...
@ sylver
Could you please answer my previous questions ?
On October 26 2012 23:48 Djodref wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2012 23:33 sylverfyre wrote:
Day one but you want someone, who is ostensibly town, to have a better reason than "well his post seems kinda fishy" for an FOS? @sylverAre you saying that Alsn is ostensibly town ? /snip.
On October 26 2012 23:14 Djodref wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2012 23:05 sylverfyre wrote:
Early on, Djo, I felt a contradiction from you based on a combination of you criticizing the lurker policy + calling out a lurker. More recently, you've switched gears a lot and been unsatisfied in defenses mounted against your case.
Finally just now claiming "not needing to consolidate" is fishy to me too. If we don't consolidate, we're going to have someone get lynched with like 3 votes, reducing scum's need to assist in the lynchwagon as well as improving scum ability to make sure one of their own cannot be lynched - so we're less likely to find scum today, but equally importantly, we would have less information later in the game (and could cause town to go rabid on itself) We want to consolidate.
I dunno if mods have more replacements lined up, I sure hope so. Having 3 playerdrops happen on day 1 is really depressing to me. Why should scum assist the "lynchwagon" (it is bandwagon by the way) ? If we are going to lynch a scum today, don't you think that they are going to try to go against the bandwagon ?
@Rad
I cannot fully address your concern about "a townie should always be able to change his mind provided that the arguments presented are good enough".
Firstly, this statement is false. Stupid townie or stubborn townie are sometimes not going to change their minds.
Secondly, you have extrapolated a particular case to draw conclusions in a more general point of view. I think it's better to find the real motivation behind specific moves than to consider the big picture. But you are free to use the scumhunting style that fits you the best.
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On October 27 2012 02:46 Djodref wrote:Show nested quote +On October 27 2012 02:42 sylverfyre wrote:
No, I think that most of it was accusing other people. Accusing other people is by no means fluff, but it also isn't responding to accusations. sylverOk, I got your point. What do you think about my defense against your points from your comprehensive list so far ? Anything else I could say ?
Your defense against my points is somewhat, and pokes my arguments full of holes. But I'm not even the only one voting you right now, and I'm inclined to keep my vote on you because of the additional evidence that I had missed pointed out by debears that he and Rad had posted about you.
I also don't see a reason to get so stressed out about defending oneself if you're town, unless you think you're failing at it. Lets give the example where either you are lynched, or a completely random other person in the game is lynched. If you are lynched, it is 0% correct, and if one of the other 12 players are lynched (well, 11 this game now that we have a modkill) you're slightly better than a random now, if you can convince people successfully of your own innocence.
Therefore "I don't want to waste time defending myself, I want to scumhunt" doesn't hold water as a scum defense to me. (And making arguments that don't hold water I find suspicious, as I've said previously this game.
And thus, I think you're so stressed out over defending yourself because you are a scum getting caught in a trap.
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On October 27 2012 02:55 da0ud wrote:
I think at the pace Djo is posting it should be easy to get a valid scum read on him at some point in the near future if he is actually scum.
He is still quite newbie-ish and trying to change his meta. He felt uncomfortable last game when targeted as mafia and I would expect him to feel the same pressure this game again. I think he is open and provocative when someone attacks him or when he attacks someone.
One thing djo. Why are you changing your mind on Ini? I think voting and unvoting and voting again creates too much unnecessary noise. If u were not going to keep your vote you could have voted later.
@daoud
I've read Ini's reaction to my case again and again and I feel like he is being sincere and honest while posting. I should vote him if he was being only rational because he looks so damn scummy but I have doubts. I need some sleep before taking my decision.
I'll go with my guts feeling...
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EBWOP: Your defense against my points is somewhat solid.
In sentence 1.
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Just a heads up folks--I may or may not be around for lynch time this evening. Something of grave importance has sprung up, and it needs attending to. I hope I can make it and post my thoughts pre-lynch. Gotta go for now.
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@sylver
You are not even voting me right now...
Your vote is still on Roco. Did you forget that you were supposed to lynch me in the case he gets modkilled ?
Are you also admitting that you are sheeping onto Rad and debears cases ?
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I don't know if my team is practicing today. Our game got rained out.
I'm gonna lay down my vote right now in case i don't get back in time
##Vote Inig
For the reasons i posted in my case on him. Right now, i am willing to keep djo around based on his activity. If he is scum it will show
Hopefully ill be back before the lynch
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I am admitting to sheeping their FOS's on you, yes. I feel like I've contributed to the argument enough on my own right that this isn't simple sheeping (this is the second time
At this point I might as well unvote Roco. If 3 people are modkilled Day 1 though, I'm going to cry. IRL.
##Unvote
Not gong to vote on Djo for now. Still FOS on him.
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EBWOP: This is the second time you're accusing me of sheeping.
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@sylver
Yeah, I know, I'm pressuring you. No hard feelings
Could you please answer my previous questions ?
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EPT
