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/in
hey thrawn and kush!
hoping I will be town to get hapa's awesome advice!
definitely not sure at this point how much time I will have. My main problem with the last game was not being around for lynch and trying to squeeze in posts in the day. Probably won't be squeezing in posts in the mid of the day this time around.
For curiosity's sake Do you have an idea when the lynch time would be for this game?
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so now the real question is. Who has bets on marv's townies and who has bets on hapa's mafias?
Under the assumption that kush and I are town, I vote town
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just checkin in to make sure u got me in one this . And awww Jacob gonna miss your squirley notes.
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Lol. Kush already going at it.
Hey guys. I'm debears. This is my second game ever of mafia. I have a couple of things to add:
+ Show Spoiler +Show nested quote +On September 28 2012 09:18 DarthPunk wrote:On September 28 2012 09:10 Z-BosoN wrote:On September 28 2012 08:43 DarthPunk wrote: It is not impossible to find scum on the first day. Policy lynches get you no info, you are most likely going to hit a townie, and you end up in the same position the next day minus 2 town. @Djodref your 'day plan' is unnecessary. Scum hunt, vote for your top scum read and everything else will fall into place. After LVII I'm rather liking the idea of policy lynches, in extreme cases. Killing lurkers in a lurker-infested town, for example, is something I'm inclined to agree on. If the town proves itself active, then whoever proves himself scummier will occupy the noose. Given that this is a newbie game, scums are generally more scared to post. While that is a general tendency, I don't agree with mass posters being cleared right off the bat, even if their posts seem meaningful. What I suggest in this game, is that people read. From my few games, much time is usually wasted discussing things that have not been read properly. On September 28 2012 06:56 Sonic Death Monkey wrote: Cool, we're on. Pretty bad timing though, I'm off to bed and then I've got a day at uni before I can really start posting. I hope to God when I get back we've moved past the lurker policy discussion. My message to newbies: the best way for you to clear yourself is to post a lot. Don't post just for the sake of posting though, that'll make you look like scum because posting for the sake of posting is what scum do. This is a rather useless post. Newbie towns want to scumhunt. Newbie scum want to look like they are scumhunting. That =/= posting a lot but not for the sake of posting, or whatever you meant. And please tell me, what do you mean? You say you hope to have moved past the lurker discussion, and yet you are telling people to post a lot? In my eyes you are telling people not to lurk because that will make them seem scummy. It seems to me that you are indirectly stating your views on lurkers despite openly saying you don't want to talk about them. Meh. Don't like lurker policy lynches at all. It just tells scum: Post. and your safe. I have read every post so far as scummy and I don't see SDM's post as more or less scummy than the others. But posting a lot will let people get a good read on you so you should 100% be doing this as town. And then if all the townies are posting you force scum to. Which makes it much easier to nab them also. SO. Post a lot if you are town. You make scum uncomfortable and facilitate town reads on yourself and scum reads on scum.
You also clutter the thread if you just post alot. Let me specify. Post quality as often as you can. That means reread the thread and build good cases. One liners don't do much good. Cases with multiple quotes and a few sentences of explanation per quote are good (most of the time).
Also, USE YOUR COACHES TOWN. Thrawn pmed Hapa over 50 times last game and he had the best town performance. That isn't a coincidence.
@Kush
I don't like the way you are starting off this game kush. It's eerily similar as last game when you were mafia. You mention you're deathless streak, nk, and your scummy meta without anyone bringing it up. You should know that I most likely know you're trends better than anyone else in this game.
The only difference between this game and last is that you have engaged in a flame war with Darth this game, which is unhelpful to our town.
FOS Kush
@everyone
One more thing:
Feel free to accuse and build cases on anyone you want for the first 24 hours. However, let's start tunneling for the second 24 hours. Also, I would like everyone to start considering a lurker (in your head) once we hit the second 24 hours as a backup. If we get close to the lynch deadline, and there are no scummy candidates, feel free to post a good case on which lurker would be the best candidate.
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@Darthpunk
Do you have links to all your previous games?
I see validity in your points. However, I need to see how you've played before. You are coming off really strong really early.
and @Kush
Tunneling does not mean only looking at the people under pressure. It means that we should only post cases with substance at that point. Someone going off tangent on some stupid duck hunt with no reason and distracting the attention of the town is bad at that point. If you do feel suspicious of someone but don't have a good case, just keep it on word and save it for when evidence does come out.
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As I said, I want a quick look at you first. Second, there isn't much more to add to what you said about it. It does give off the impression of extra information.
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@darthpunk
You could also say that you are too convinced in your reasons. What I am cautious of at this point is that you stated directly before the game that you were after kush if he plays like he has in his past 3 games. I feel like that may be clouding your judgement in this situation.
Our main goal is to lynch mafia. Yes, kush has said some scummy things. However, I'm not gonna go around parading this early saying "kush is scum. Kush is scum. OMFG".
Also, let the man defend himself instead of trying to rally everyone active behind your cause so early. If he is scummy, the votes will come.
Anyhow. I see two others who have suspiciously posted.
@Boson
+ Show Spoiler +On September 28 2012 09:10 Z-BosoN wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2012 08:43 DarthPunk wrote: It is not impossible to find scum on the first day. Policy lynches get you no info, you are most likely going to hit a townie, and you end up in the same position the next day minus 2 town. @Djodref your 'day plan' is unnecessary. Scum hunt, vote for your top scum read and everything else will fall into place. After LVII I'm rather liking the idea of policy lynches, in extreme cases. Killing lurkers in a lurker-infested town, for example, is something I'm inclined to agree on. If the town proves itself active, then whoever proves himself scummier will occupy the noose. Given that this is a newbie game, scums are generally more scared to post. While that is a general tendency, I don't agree with mass posters being cleared right off the bat, even if their posts seem meaningful. What I suggest in this game, is that people read. From my few games, much time is usually wasted discussing things that have not been read properly. Show nested quote +On September 28 2012 06:56 Sonic Death Monkey wrote: Cool, we're on. Pretty bad timing though, I'm off to bed and then I've got a day at uni before I can really start posting. I hope to God when I get back we've moved past the lurker policy discussion. My message to newbies: the best way for you to clear yourself is to post a lot. Don't post just for the sake of posting though, that'll make you look like scum because posting for the sake of posting is what scum do. This is a rather useless post. Newbie towns want to scumhunt. Newbie scum want to look like they are scumhunting. That =/= posting a lot but not for the sake of posting, or whatever you meant. And please tell me, what do you mean? You say you hope to have moved past the lurker discussion, and yet you are telling people to post a lot? In my eyes you are telling people not to lurk because that will make them seem scummy. It seems to me that you are indirectly stating your views on lurkers despite openly saying you don't want to talk about them. Boson, please try not to read too hard into a person's very first posts and make something out of nothing. It is pretty clear what sonic was saying. He wants newbies to post so that they don't get grouped under the lurker corral that usually follows up later. Last game, we had lurkers galore and it really messed up the town. Also, you mention that his post is useless. Now I will examine your two other posts in terms of uselessness. On September 28 2012 09:12 Z-BosoN wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2012 09:01 kushm4sta wrote:On September 28 2012 08:34 DarthPunk wrote:On September 28 2012 06:58 kushm4sta wrote: @sonic getting everyone's thoughts on lurker policy is important. Don't argue about it but share your views on the matter please.. No it's not. It is simply a mechanism to get the discussion going and allows scum to seem to participate and to potentially mislynch an inactive townie. Any more talk of policy will get you FoS'd. Sorry but who appointed this asshole boss? you get people's thoughts on lurker policy, so you can catch them deviating from it later and question them about it. And why are you that scared of a FOS? A one-liner. A question that really doesn't accomplish anything. In other words, a useless post. Also, your next post doesn't address his response although he responded right after and you posted within 30 minutes of his response in a pretty light thread. On September 28 2012 09:43 Z-BosoN wrote: @DP
Saying we will lynch lurkers is one thing. Deciding whether a lurker should die later at day two is another. What I said is I'm inclined to lynch a lurker if there aren't better choices, not that we will 100% lynch a lurker.
@Stutters
I'd like to see more posts from you. In XXIV you showed you were capable of making decent posts as town, so I encourage you to post eve more here.
@kush
What's your view on darthpunk? You said you don't like his coldness, but you don't like it in a "he's scum" sort of way? Yet again, nothing of substance here. You go more in depth about semantics (is that the right word I'm looking for?) about lynching lurkers and lynching lurkers at day two. Second, you call out stutters, who has already been warned by others and most likely the mods for no reason this early in the game. Finally, two sentences, two questions going on about the exact wording of kush's statements. It sounded like before the game you had stated that you have played in multiple games. Is that true? For someone who is telling other people to not post useless posts, you aren't doing a good job of it yourself. Looks more like you are trying to just be active while off the radar. In other words, you are a semi-active lurker who has bad post quality. Sounds like characteristics of a certain alignment.
@Djoref
+ Show Spoiler +On September 28 2012 08:51 Djodref wrote: @Darthpunk
Nevermind you look just more confident to get a scum on D1 than me.
Regarding my plan, I think we need general directions to follow because of the majority lynch. It is a way to gather everybody around 2-3 suspicious players and secure a lynch. I'm assuming everyone agree on a no-lynch to be stupid.
Djoref, I don't like that statement at all. That's the second post you bring up about the likelihood of lynching a townie d1. As town, you should never have that mentality. I would probably less likely to bring this up if you were a total nooby. However, you said you "know Kush's meta" which means you have some decent understanding of the game for a noob. By saying this, it seems that you are setting yourself an excuse to be indecisive later in the day when the lynch voting comes around. Alone, it isn't much. However, your other posts don't help. On September 28 2012 08:44 Djodref wrote: @Darthpunk
Considering that we are likely to lynch a town on D1, don't you think it's a lesser wrong to get rid of someone inactive ? Inactivity means no scumhunt and room to hide for the mafia...
After playing mafia last game, I feel like heavy lurking is a bad play for mafia. It puts too much pressure on you are as a scum. Instead, posting lightly without much substance is more mafia indicative. Yet again, I feel you are just looking like you are contributing without saying much. Especially when you already covered your thoughts in a previous post. On September 28 2012 08:36 Djodref wrote:Hello everybody ! About meThis is my first game ever on forum but I've been playing on SC2mafia and also irl. But I've been lurking on the TL Mafia forum for a while (so I know your meta kush^^) and I decided to join this newbie game. I'm also a French guy and I live in Korea so my english is not on top and it's going to ne difficult for me to be around at deadline (5.00 am KST). Lurker policyFrom the games I've seen, unless you have a golden scumslip on d1, it's very difficult to lynch a scum the very first day. So I have no problem ending up voting for the most suspicious lurker at the end of the day. I define most suspicious lurker as a semi-lurker just trying to blend in.Day PlanI don't think to be able to be around for the first deadline so I would like to propose a day plan to secure a lynch as we are using a majority vote. First 24 hours to find lynch candidates while scumhunting and next 20 hours to decide who is the scummiest. Last 4 hours to consolidate the vote or switch to a lurker. Please discuss Notice how you are just repeating points? It isn't helpful to us. Next post On September 28 2012 11:09 Djodref wrote:@Kush Was it also a joke ? How can you be so sure you are not going to be NKed ? A two sentence, two question post. I don't like these. They are worthless. Also, this question came quite a bit later after darthpunk already was asking questions about joking. You seem to be sheeping onto darth's case against kush. On September 28 2012 11:53 Djodref wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2012 11:22 kushm4sta wrote:
Because the most active townie is tunneling me?
I would also like to hear you explanations about this specific part. I don't have a read on Darth on the moment considering he has only been hard tunneling you. As you said yourself you have a scummy meta so you are an easy target for early game to put pressure on. So what makes him so much town ? Yet again, this post is just repeating what darth is saying. Another question. I don't like this. Your early posts are indicative of a semi-active scum. Sheeping, question posts, and rehashing things already said multiple times.
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@darth
When did I say stop going after him? I said wait for him to respond.
You can be convinced he's scum, but you're making a huge deal out of it early in the game. multiple red texts with the word scum. Got your point.
I'm not defending him as much as I'm trying to tell you that you are going overboard right now. You don't have to rush in annointing him scum.
@z-boson
If you haven't realized yet, I played with SDM last game. I know where he stands with lurker policy. If you haven't noticed, darth doesn't like them either. Why? Cuz they usually go nowhere fast.
Why are you so focused on lurker discussion when there are other things going on?
Nice FOS btw. I make a case on you and you fail to respond to half of it.
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@Z-Boson
Let me include another post from sonic which happened closely after the one which you attacked.
+ Show Spoiler +On September 28 2012 07:08 Sonic Death Monkey wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2012 06:58 kushm4sta wrote: @sonic getting everyone's thoughts on lurker policy is important. Don't argue about it but share your views on the matter please.. Encouraging newbie towns to post is more important than typing out the same things I've said about lurker policy in XXVI and XXVII yet again: If we don't have a good scum case (lurker or active) by late d1, we lynch the most suspicious lurker. We should obviously be looking to avoid that scenario by scum hunting. That's really all that needs to be said as far as I'm concerned.
This looks like his view of lurking right?
Then why did you post your attack on him 2 hours after this post? Are you just scanning the thread looking for things that you can accuse people for instead of actually reading?
Now for your reasoning for the attack
+ Show Spoiler +On September 28 2012 14:26 Z-BosoN wrote:@debearHave you ever heard about instigating discussion? You know, getting people to talk? I don't like how you defended SDM. You stated your views on lurkers, so that means you must agree that this type of discussion has some validity:Show nested quote +-- snip -- Also, I would like everyone to start considering a lurker (in your head) once we hit the second 24 hours as a backup. If we get close to the lynch deadline, and there are no scummy candidates, feel free to post a good case on which lurker would be the best candidate. Yet, you don't address SDM's blatant "I don't give a crap about policy lynch discussion's" stance? Seems rather odd to me. ##FoS debears
How is your post instigating discussion with SDM? He said he would be afk with sleep and classes. He won't be here for a while, yet you attack him and that's your main reason, especially for a first post? That, combined with failing to read his post that came shortly after, means your either lying or not reading.
And the fact that you are twisting his statements is also concerning. He never said "I don't give a crap" about lurker policy. He said he hope it is over by the time he gets back. Lurker policy discussion is generally fruitless, that is why darthpunk FOS kush early on. Are you going to attack darthpunk also?
Now for your next post
+ Show Spoiler +On September 28 2012 15:36 Z-BosoN wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2012 14:43 debears wrote: @darth
When did I say stop going after him? I said wait for him to respond.
You can be convinced he's scum, but you're making a huge deal out of it early in the game. multiple red texts with the word scum. Got your point.
I'm not defending him as much as I'm trying to tell you that you are going overboard right now. You don't have to rush in annointing him scum.
@z-boson
If you haven't realized yet, I played with SDM last game. I know where he stands with lurker policy. If you haven't noticed, darth doesn't like them either. Why? Cuz they usually go nowhere fast.
Why are you so focused on lurker discussion when there are other things going on?
Nice FOS btw. I make a case on you and you fail to respond to half of it. I don't care who you've played with. You make it a point to say your view on lurkers. You defend him for absolutely no reason, when his views implicitly contradict yours. If you were townie, I wouldn't think this to be a priority for you. I am not focused on lurker discussion, I am focused on the inconsistency you've presented. The issue of "Lurker policy" is not what is at hand. The issue at hand is why you are bothering to defend him (and now kush) instead of letting them defend themselves. It feels extremely forced right now, as townies are supposedly scouring the thread for blood. That's why the FOS. Regarding your "case", it seems to me like the only think you've got going is my general usefulness. And I already said it in form of a question, but now I'll answer it more bluntly so you can't dismiss it: I am instigating discussion. Read all my posts and see if that's what I'm trying to accomplish.
Yet again. You failed to read. His views are similar to mine, as stated in his quoted post.
Townies are not supposed to be "scouring the thread for blood". That statement is way too harsh. You are supposed to be looking at motivations behind posts, making informed cases, and deciding who looks scummy. By the way you started out with attacking thrawn, it seems that you are looking through people's posts trying to find only mafia motivations behind their posting. It's a two sided coin. If you look at townie motivations, and there isn't one, then you have something.
Finally, instigating discussion does not mean making worthless posts with only questions and no analysis, posts calling out people for lurking way too early in the game, attacking people who said they would be afk early in d1, and FOS someone when you aren't reading the thread thoroughly. Overall, you are causing confusion by pointing you finger for bad reasons. That isn't helping us.
+ Show Spoiler +On September 28 2012 23:30 Z-BosoN wrote: @Alsn
Reading your trade-off with DP and your cases against me, I find two things: a) You have a tendency to heavily misinterpret posts and intentions, AND use them as arguments. b) You say you like Logic, but you don't seem to read carefully enough. Logic with information is useless. I mean this, especially in the part where you said I was calling kush out along DP, which is clearly a lie.
For the love of God, if you are town, don't keep this up. I understand we are still in day one and we don't have much to go on, but still. The last thing I need is another austincc that will warp everything I say in a "scum would do this" way.
This post is funny, because you are doing the exact same thing
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@Djoref
On September 28 2012 15:22 Djodref wrote: @DarthPunk
For your information, i consider the comments of debears on my posts legitimate. Let me say that I even don't like them. Currently reading the guides and older game analysis.
Please pm marv for help. The coaches are great
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@Omniscient
On September 29 2012 02:17 Omniscient4983 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 29 2012 01:55 debears wrote:@Djoref On September 28 2012 15:22 Djodref wrote: @DarthPunk
For your information, i consider the comments of debears on my posts legitimate. Let me say that I even don't like them. Currently reading the guides and older game analysis. Please pm marv for help. The coaches are great So you're confirming him town?
No. I am trying to help a newbie get into the swing of things. Last game, there was a large portion of lurkers, and it destroyed the game atmosphere. If he gets help and posts more quality, we have a much better read on him.
@Z-Boson
+ Show Spoiler +On September 29 2012 02:25 Z-BosoN wrote:@AlsnI already answered that. You are bieng dense. @debearsI missed that second post, though it further strengthens my case against you. You do not find it odd that he dismisses lurker policy talk and then, explicitly tells us his views on lurkers, thus indulging in this talk? And yet you find that post as a defense for him? Show nested quote +Finally, instigating discussion does not mean making worthless posts with only questions and no analysis, posts calling out people for lurking way too early in the game, attacking people who said they would be afk early in d1, and FOS someone when you aren't reading the thread thoroughly. Overall, you are causing confusion by pointing you finger for bad reasons. That isn't helping us. Sorry, my scummy friend, but observe how my post drew you and Alsn out in discussion. I still eagerly await his answer, but it certainly was not worthless. You are bitching about a question I asked SDM. I didn't file a case on him, I didn't FoS him, I questioned him. I did NOT call him out for lurking. YOU fail to read, and now you are waaaaaaay too defensive about a question that didn't even concern you. Alsn presented the same defensiveness, but not on the same level as you and on a way that is much more townie-looking than yours. Also, the "irony" you've presented is without merit. I agree that the reasoning for my questioning of SDM is a bit far-fetched, but I absolutely did not use it as an argument as to why he is scummy. Don't get the facts distorted. The only FoS I have so far is on you.
Let me clarify the quote you put in my post. I realize now that I should've said who you did those against.
"Finally, instigating discussion does not mean making worthless posts with only questions and no analysis (your first 3 posts), posts calling out people for lurking way too early in the game (the post about stutters), attacking people who said they would be afk early in d1 (SDM) , and FOS someone when you aren't reading the thread thoroughly. (me) Overall, you are causing confusion by pointing you finger for bad reasons. That isn't helping us."
And I wouldn't call me criticizing you defensive. I'd call it offensive. If anything is defensive, it's your OMGUS-like FOS on me right after I make a case about you.
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lol kush....what's up with you today?
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@kush
Why the sudden no care attitude?
You come in to the game brimming with confidence from last game, citing your deathless streak yet again. However, no you have seemed to give up with so a small amount of pressure (from darth and sonic) when you have plenty of time to help us out.
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If you feel like this, then why did you post this?
+ Show Spoiler +On September 28 2012 06:11 kushm4sta wrote: First!!
whats up guys it's kush.
About me I have been told many times I have a "scummy meta." Not really fair since last game I did roll scum so I didn't really get a chance to show improvement in my town play. I'm working on it guys. This is my 4th newbie game so I'm experienced as possible to play in this game. Also I think rolling scum last game will help my reads greatly. I know how those fuckers think.
Everyone say how you feel about lurker policy. I take kind of a middle of the ground stance. I mean if you have like 3 lurkers obviously you shouldn't waste 3 nights killing them off 1 by 1. If I think someone is scummy than I vote for that person. If I don't have any good scumreads then I will be in favor of lynching a lurker. Usually what seems to happen is town can't decide so they bandwagon on some lurker at the last second. I'm not against this since it keeps pressure on possible scum. I don't like people to say oh we are definitely lynching a lurker d1, because then scum feels safe as long as they are somewhat active. My willingness to lynch a lurker decreases as the game progresses. For example I think lynching a lurker d3 is really bad.
Message to scum: I can smell you.
This has been your chance to show improvement, yet you wanted to give up? Also, you are one of the most experienced players, as you said. Then, why aren't you taking the reins in this situation and using your experience?
Finally,
+ Show Spoiler +On September 25 2012 12:24 kushm4sta wrote:Show nested quote +On September 25 2012 07:37 thrawn2112 wrote: lol.... welcome kush. Is this your last newbie? yup honestly im afraid to start playing with the big boys How do you expect to play with the big boys with this pissy little shitfest you've been on? I don't buy it that someone so eager to prove their worth as a townie would suddenly give up in their fourth game. On September 29 2012 05:25 kushm4sta wrote: that post of when I say player and person is actually from when I was scum. that was.because.I put in extra effort to not make scum slips. this game I don't even give a fuck. I.think people misunderstand.the nature of scumslips. I'm surprised that people who have been scum before don't realise this. Think of the scumslips you've made.They aren't obvious like that. I made plenty last game.
So you don't think I was aggressive my second game? Read the post where drazzak foses me. I.flame quite bad there.if I remember.correctly.
People.critisize me for not scumhunting. Well I identified my top scum read and his scummy behavior. My time is not infinite though and people keep asking me questions I have to answer. Would you prefer I ignore questions? As a townie, the goal is to establish your innocence best you can. Should you only worry about not sounding like scum? No. But you should put some thought into your posts.
I just can't buy this bullshit. You are either
1) Mafia trying to pity your way out of being lynched. or 2) A little bitch
I see 1 more likely from having played with you. You put in a good game and I had a lot of fun. This is just ruining this game. I don't see you pulling this off as a town.
For that reason, combined with the aforementioned scumslips.
##Vote Kushm4sta
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ebwop....I apologize in advance for my comment on 2) mods....I just realized that that was stupid
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@kush
The ambiguous statement i made qbout you in the start of my vote post was addressed to your feeling of hoplessness despite your early enthusiasm
@k boson
You're association case is assuming way too much. Use ockhams razor. We can't assume modwarnings. That is ridiculous. Especially when using that reason to cherrypick his posts to create an association case
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On September 29 2012 11:03 Z-BosoN wrote:Show nested quote +On September 29 2012 10:36 debears wrote: @kush
The ambiguous statement i made qbout you in the start of my vote post was addressed to your feeling of hoplessness despite your early enthusiasm
@k boson
You're association case is assuming way too much. Use ockhams razor. We can't assume modwarnings. That is ridiculous. Especially when using that reason to cherrypick his posts to create an association case That only adds to the fact that I already have a strong scumread of you. Whatever his alignment, I'm pushing for you next.
How does that statement add to your scumread? Do you mind adding reasoning?
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And @kush
I am aware of the situation. I hope we can remain friends after my comments earlier. . However, i do have 2 suspects at this point. Fortunately, i have my sam adams to wash away any doubt i have going into the next couple days.
At this point, i see you condemned with no alternative. Please though next game follow through on your pre game enthusiam. You are better than this
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@darthpunk
Currently, you should know one of my suspects based on a heated discussion btw him and me. The other i am waiting for a few more posts to give him a fair opportunity. The second one is a wildcard. Tomorrow i will build a casebfor him when I'm at my computer and in a better ba situation to make a suitable case
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Why am i scum by association? Someone want to provide a clesr case so i csn refutre it?
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@djo
What parts of his case specifically do you believe?
His main case against me is contradiction. Look at my case against thrawn in the last game. What was the main point of that argument? Inconsistency. Its an easy point for scum to point out.
There are two possibilities for kushvin my eyes 1) a mafiab tryingbto pity his way out off a lynch 2) a townie acting likeva total noob with accusations against him.
Which has less assumptions? Number 1.
My problen with the scum by associstion is the case that i was defendung kush earky on. That us false i was trying ti communicate ti darth that his reasoning wad based off such a strong s assumption early in the game. In fact, I'd say that z-bosons case against me is the same. He looks at the mafia side only, which to me is a indicator of mafia. I can't make a case dur to drinking and being on my phone.
My read in you is that you are sheeping onto cases. I don't like it because i did the same.
Why do you think i would refer you to a coach? What are the townie and mafia motivations behind it.
@z-boson
The same question stated the line above refers to you
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Ugh. Pphone autocorect is screwing me. Fill in the blanks if u you must
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Alright guys, sobered up and reading to go into ass kicking mode. At this point, kush is going to be lynched. However, some of you faultily believe this “association case” linking me and kush by Boson and his case against me. I originally intended this to be a pure defense case, but after typing it out, Z-Boson comes across scummy to me. Anyways here we go.
On September 29 2012 05:29 Z-BosoN wrote:All right, I went through debears filter now, and I'm confident he is scum. Let's go through this more carefully now. His first post: + Show Spoiler +On September 28 2012 11:05 debears wrote:Lol. Kush already going at it. Hey guys. I'm debears. This is my second game ever of mafia. I have a couple of things to add: + Show Spoiler +Show nested quote +On September 28 2012 09:18 DarthPunk wrote:On September 28 2012 09:10 Z-BosoN wrote:On September 28 2012 08:43 DarthPunk wrote: It is not impossible to find scum on the first day. Policy lynches get you no info, you are most likely going to hit a townie, and you end up in the same position the next day minus 2 town. @Djodref your 'day plan' is unnecessary. Scum hunt, vote for your top scum read and everything else will fall into place. After LVII I'm rather liking the idea of policy lynches, in extreme cases. Killing lurkers in a lurker-infested town, for example, is something I'm inclined to agree on. If the town proves itself active, then whoever proves himself scummier will occupy the noose. Given that this is a newbie game, scums are generally more scared to post. While that is a general tendency, I don't agree with mass posters being cleared right off the bat, even if their posts seem meaningful. What I suggest in this game, is that people read. From my few games, much time is usually wasted discussing things that have not been read properly. On September 28 2012 06:56 Sonic Death Monkey wrote: Cool, we're on. Pretty bad timing though, I'm off to bed and then I've got a day at uni before I can really start posting. I hope to God when I get back we've moved past the lurker policy discussion. My message to newbies: the best way for you to clear yourself is to post a lot. Don't post just for the sake of posting though, that'll make you look like scum because posting for the sake of posting is what scum do. This is a rather useless post. Newbie towns want to scumhunt. Newbie scum want to look like they are scumhunting. That =/= posting a lot but not for the sake of posting, or whatever you meant. And please tell me, what do you mean? You say you hope to have moved past the lurker discussion, and yet you are telling people to post a lot? In my eyes you are telling people not to lurk because that will make them seem scummy. It seems to me that you are indirectly stating your views on lurkers despite openly saying you don't want to talk about them. Meh. Don't like lurker policy lynches at all. It just tells scum: Post. and your safe. I have read every post so far as scummy and I don't see SDM's post as more or less scummy than the others. But posting a lot will let people get a good read on you so you should 100% be doing this as town. And then if all the townies are posting you force scum to. Which makes it much easier to nab them also. SO. Post a lot if you are town. You make scum uncomfortable and facilitate town reads on yourself and scum reads on scum. You also clutter the thread if you just post alot. Let me specify. Post quality as often as you can. That means reread the thread and build good cases. One liners don't do much good. Cases with multiple quotes and a few sentences of explanation per quote are good (most of the time). Also, USE YOUR COACHES TOWN. Thrawn pmed Hapa over 50 times last game and he had the best town performance. That isn't a coincidence. @Kush I don't like the way you are starting off this game kush. It's eerily similar as last game when you were mafia. You mention you're deathless streak, nk, and your scummy meta without anyone bringing it up. You should know that I most likely know you're trends better than anyone else in this game. The only difference between this game and last is that you have engaged in a flame war with Darth this game, which is unhelpful to our town. FOS Kush@everyone One more thing: Feel free to accuse and build cases on anyone you want for the first 24 hours. However, let's start tunneling for the second 24 hours. Also, I would like everyone to start considering a lurker (in your head) once we hit the second 24 hours as a backup. If we get close to the lynch deadline, and there are no scummy candidates, feel free to post a good case on which lurker would be the best candidate. First of all, his "I want town to win!!" post telling town to use their coaches. He then FoS's Kush, due to the fact that he's playing a similar game as the one he was scum. He says that DP + kush flame war is bad for the town, but doesn't attack Darthpunk, probably because he finds kush to be more scummy looking. Now, from a townie perspective, what does debear want? Information in order to lynch kush, as he pointed a FOS mostly based on a meta read. But suddenly, towards darthpunk:
snip --You could also say that you are too convinced in your reasons. What I am cautious of at this point is that you stated directly before the game that you were after kush if he plays like he has in his past 3 games. I feel like that may be clouding your judgement in this situation. Our main goal is to lynch mafia. Yes, kush has said some scummy things. However, I'm not gonna go around parading this early saying "kush is scum. Kush is scum. OMFG". Also, let the man defend himself instead of trying to rally everyone active behind your cause so early. If he is scummy, the votes will come. He is defensive towards kush. That's not how townies think. While I agree that DP is a bit overboard on kush, I don't agree that he failed to give arguments as to why he thinks that is so. A townie with a FOS on someone will want to deal with the arguments first. He doesn't do that, and suddenly becomes defensive on Kush. He says, later:
I'm not defending him as much as I'm trying to tell you that you are going overboard right now. You don't have to rush in annointing him scum. He is more bothered by DPs certainty than by his actual arguments. Inconsistency #1. He then comes up with two cases. One against me, and one against Djoref: @Boson + Show Spoiler +On September 28 2012 09:10 Z-BosoN wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2012 08:43 DarthPunk wrote: It is not impossible to find scum on the first day. Policy lynches get you no info, you are most likely going to hit a townie, and you end up in the same position the next day minus 2 town. @Djodref your 'day plan' is unnecessary. Scum hunt, vote for your top scum read and everything else will fall into place. After LVII I'm rather liking the idea of policy lynches, in extreme cases. Killing lurkers in a lurker-infested town, for example, is something I'm inclined to agree on. If the town proves itself active, then whoever proves himself scummier will occupy the noose. Given that this is a newbie game, scums are generally more scared to post. While that is a general tendency, I don't agree with mass posters being cleared right off the bat, even if their posts seem meaningful. What I suggest in this game, is that people read. From my few games, much time is usually wasted discussing things that have not been read properly. Show nested quote +On September 28 2012 06:56 Sonic Death Monkey wrote: Cool, we're on. Pretty bad timing though, I'm off to bed and then I've got a day at uni before I can really start posting. I hope to God when I get back we've moved past the lurker policy discussion. My message to newbies: the best way for you to clear yourself is to post a lot. Don't post just for the sake of posting though, that'll make you look like scum because posting for the sake of posting is what scum do. This is a rather useless post. Newbie towns want to scumhunt. Newbie scum want to look like they are scumhunting. That =/= posting a lot but not for the sake of posting, or whatever you meant. And please tell me, what do you mean? You say you hope to have moved past the lurker discussion, and yet you are telling people to post a lot? In my eyes you are telling people not to lurk because that will make them seem scummy. It seems to me that you are indirectly stating your views on lurkers despite openly saying you don't want to talk about them. Boson, please try not to read too hard into a person's very first posts and make something out of nothing. It is pretty clear what sonic was saying. He wants newbies to post so that they don't get grouped under the lurker corral that usually follows up later. Last game, we had lurkers galore and it really messed up the town. Also, you mention that his post is useless. Now I will examine your two other posts in terms of uselessness. On September 28 2012 09:12 Z-BosoN wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2012 09:01 kushm4sta wrote:On September 28 2012 08:34 DarthPunk wrote:On September 28 2012 06:58 kushm4sta wrote: @sonic getting everyone's thoughts on lurker policy is important. Don't argue about it but share your views on the matter please.. No it's not. It is simply a mechanism to get the discussion going and allows scum to seem to participate and to potentially mislynch an inactive townie. Any more talk of policy will get you FoS'd. Sorry but who appointed this asshole boss? you get people's thoughts on lurker policy, so you can catch them deviating from it later and question them about it. And why are you that scared of a FOS? A one-liner. A question that really doesn't accomplish anything. In other words, a useless post. Also, your next post doesn't address his response although he responded right after and you posted within 30 minutes of his response in a pretty light thread. On September 28 2012 09:43 Z-BosoN wrote: @DP
Saying we will lynch lurkers is one thing. Deciding whether a lurker should die later at day two is another. What I said is I'm inclined to lynch a lurker if there aren't better choices, not that we will 100% lynch a lurker.
@Stutters
I'd like to see more posts from you. In XXIV you showed you were capable of making decent posts as town, so I encourage you to post eve more here.
@kush
What's your view on darthpunk? You said you don't like his coldness, but you don't like it in a "he's scum" sort of way? Yet again, nothing of substance here. You go more in depth about semantics (is that the right word I'm looking for?) about lynching lurkers and lynching lurkers at day two. Second, you call out stutters, who has already been warned by others and most likely the mods for no reason this early in the game. Finally, two sentences, two questions going on about the exact wording of kush's statements. It sounded like before the game you had stated that you have played in multiple games. Is that true? For someone who is telling other people to not post useless posts, you aren't doing a good job of it yourself. Looks more like you are trying to just be active while off the radar. In other words, you are a semi-active lurker who has bad post quality. Sounds like characteristics of a certain alignment. @Djoref+ Show Spoiler +On September 28 2012 08:51 Djodref wrote: @Darthpunk
Nevermind you look just more confident to get a scum on D1 than me.
Regarding my plan, I think we need general directions to follow because of the majority lynch. It is a way to gather everybody around 2-3 suspicious players and secure a lynch. I'm assuming everyone agree on a no-lynch to be stupid.
Djoref, I don't like that statement at all. That's the second post you bring up about the likelihood of lynching a townie d1. As town, you should never have that mentality. I would probably less likely to bring this up if you were a total nooby. However, you said you "know Kush's meta" which means you have some decent understanding of the game for a noob. By saying this, it seems that you are setting yourself an excuse to be indecisive later in the day when the lynch voting comes around. Alone, it isn't much. However, your other posts don't help. On September 28 2012 08:44 Djodref wrote: @Darthpunk
Considering that we are likely to lynch a town on D1, don't you think it's a lesser wrong to get rid of someone inactive ? Inactivity means no scumhunt and room to hide for the mafia...
After playing mafia last game, I feel like heavy lurking is a bad play for mafia. It puts too much pressure on you are as a scum. Instead, posting lightly without much substance is more mafia indicative. Yet again, I feel you are just looking like you are contributing without saying much. Especially when you already covered your thoughts in a previous post. On September 28 2012 08:36 Djodref wrote:Hello everybody ! About meThis is my first game ever on forum but I've been playing on SC2mafia and also irl. But I've been lurking on the TL Mafia forum for a while (so I know your meta kush^^) and I decided to join this newbie game. I'm also a French guy and I live in Korea so my english is not on top and it's going to ne difficult for me to be around at deadline (5.00 am KST). Lurker policyFrom the games I've seen, unless you have a golden scumslip on d1, it's very difficult to lynch a scum the very first day. So I have no problem ending up voting for the most suspicious lurker at the end of the day. I define most suspicious lurker as a semi-lurker just trying to blend in.Day PlanI don't think to be able to be around for the first deadline so I would like to propose a day plan to secure a lynch as we are using a majority vote. First 24 hours to find lynch candidates while scumhunting and next 20 hours to decide who is the scummiest. Last 4 hours to consolidate the vote or switch to a lurker. Please discuss Notice how you are just repeating points? It isn't helpful to us. Next post On September 28 2012 11:09 Djodref wrote:@Kush Was it also a joke ? How can you be so sure you are not going to be NKed ? A two sentence, two question post. I don't like these. They are worthless. Also, this question came quite a bit later after darthpunk already was asking questions about joking. You seem to be sheeping onto darth's case against kush. On September 28 2012 11:53 Djodref wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2012 11:22 kushm4sta wrote:
Because the most active townie is tunneling me?
I would also like to hear you explanations about this specific part. I don't have a read on Darth on the moment considering he has only been hard tunneling you. As you said yourself you have a scummy meta so you are an easy target for early game to put pressure on. So what makes him so much town ? Yet again, this post is just repeating what darth is saying. Another question. I don't like this. Your early posts are indicative of a semi-active scum. Sheeping, question posts, and rehashing things already said multiple times. Notice the similarity between the two. He attacks us for asking questions (later on denies that they provide any discussion whatsoever), and falls into the same "semi-active lurker" category he's sniffing about. I will ignore the quality of his arguments, which I personally think are horrible, and will look more towards their similarity. From his case against me:A one-liner. A question that really doesn't accomplish anything. In other words, a useless post. Also, your next post doesn't address his response although he responded right after and you posted within 30 minutes of his response in a pretty light thread. For someone who is telling other people to not post useless posts, you aren't doing a good job of it yourself. Looks more like you are trying to just be active while off the radar. In other words, you are a semi-active lurker who has bad post quality. Sounds like characteristics of a certain alignment. From his case against Djoref:A two sentence, two question post. I don't like these. They are worthless. Also, this question came quite a bit later after darthpunk already was asking questions about joking. You seem to be sheeping onto darth's case against kush. Your early posts are indicative of a semi-active scum. Sheeping, question posts, and rehashing things already said multiple times. See the similarity, especially the bolded part? It seems that he has this "semi-active scum" cake recipe that he is using to sniff out scum. He also calls us out on our posting quality, in my case saying it is bad. I won't address his next post towards me because I've already done so, and because it doesn't increase his scumminess , as "bad cases =/= scum" (although it pisses me off). Anyways, now to the main stuff. He has a case against me and Djoref, for pretty much the same reasoning. Yet, check out what his next post on Djoref is: On September 29 2012 01:55 debears wrote:@Djoref Show nested quote +On September 28 2012 15:22 Djodref wrote: @DarthPunk
For your information, i consider the comments of debears on my posts legitimate. Let me say that I even don't like them. Currently reading the guides and older game analysis. Please pm marv for help. The coaches are great Wtf??? What ?? Where is his case against Djoref?? He goes from a scummy-looking sheep with one liners to a "townie who should pm marv for help"? Could he have forgotten that Djoref was one of his main suspicions? Inconsistency #2
Note that I no longer think that his defense of SDM is scummy. I've gone over that a few times and I admit that it can also come from a townie perspective. To summarize, here are the main inconsistencies in his play that scream to me SCUM: 1) He had a FOS on kush, then hurried on to defend him, in the manner I've shown above. I cannot fathom for the life of me having a FOS on someone and suddenly feel like I have to address an exaggeration on that person before I actually address the case. 2) He completely absolves Djoref for absolutely no reason. Townies do not throw around suspicions only to insta-drop them.3) The other supporting arguments I've shown above.debears is SCUM!##vote debears
Note the use of red in this whole thing is to clarify what I’m refuting.
Inconsistency 1 1) My “want to win”, use the coaches pm has mainly townie motivation. Why wouldn't I tell everyone to PM their coaches after last game? Hapapauli specifically mentioned how Thrawn was the only one actually getting help from him. There can be some mafia WIFOM argument, but that is assuming more than the fact I want to win and the obvious townie motivation for it.
2) Next, you say that I don’t attack DarthPunk. While I never attacked DarthPunk (he had good reasoning for suspecting kush), I did tell him to cool his jets and stop trying to convince others to his argument so early in the game, especially since kush was afk at the moment darth attacked kush. Now, because of his early hardcore tunnel, we are in a situation where the lynch is one sided. That doesn’t do really any good for us unless he is mafia. If he turns town, we gave the mafia a veil to hide under. Another townie side Z-Boson failed to address.
3) From a townie perspective, I wanted more information on kush, and I wanted to spread out some focus on other people early on to avoid a one sided lynch for the reasons in 2), hence the posts directed at Djo and Z-Boson early on.
4) Then, your points about me being defensive at kush were not defenses of kush’s actions. They were attempts to tell darth to chill out and subdue some of his power trip, which I said in both quotes that you post in that section.
5) When you say a townie with a FOS will want to deal with arguments first, that is true. However, kush was afk at the moment and darth was hammering him without kush able to defend himself at a very early point in time in the game. As stated above, look at the situation we are in now if kush flips town.
Inconsistency 2
1) If you looked at my posts after my “PM marv for help” post, I believe corrosion instantly assumed that I confirmed him town. That is not true at all. Notice A) Djo is a noob and B) I said COACHES. The word townie was never said in the sentence. You guys are putting words in my mouth. Also, note how in one of Djo’s prior posts, he says he was going to go look at guides. I don’t understand why you guys are so eager to jump on someone trying to help a newbie.
Yet again, townie motivation: If Djo is town, it will greatly help us if he gets help. Even if he isn't, it will raise the quality of this NEWBIE game and help us all improve if he gets help.
Ending
1) I want to quote something from Bosons post. “Note that I no longer think that his defense of SDM is scummy. I've gone over that a few times and I admit that it can also come from a townie perspective.” By his logic, that does not factor into my case. Also, how do the other two reasons in your post not have a townie perspective/motivation?
2) The list of 1,2,3 Boson made at the bottom. If I read the post correctly, the only other argument is that my cases against Djo and Z-Bo early one were a "scum recipe". To that, I say duh. Semi-active lurker is a place where mafia can hide to look like they are contributing without actually doing so. I noticed this last game with JacobStrangeLove. I also read some guides that state that. Why wouldn't I call you out early when there's not much to go on?
Now for z-bos next post right after the post in which he attacked me (5 min after to be exact):
+ Show Spoiler +On September 29 2012 05:34 Z-BosoN wrote: I'm not against a kush lynch atm, but from what I gather kush's case is mostly meta-based with a side dish of not-scumhunting and also general scummy-looking posts. I think my evidence against debear is much more damning. Please read carefully his posts and my case and see if you don't agree. So he bashs me for “defending kush” (according to himself) and then infers that the evidence against kush isn’t the greatest. That’s not very consistent. On September 29 2012 05:55 Z-BosoN wrote:Show nested quote +On September 29 2012 05:46 kushm4sta wrote:On September 29 2012 05:29 Z-BosoN wrote:All right, I went through debears filter now, and I'm confident he is scum. Let's go through this more carefully now. His first post: On September 28 2012 11:05 debears wrote:Lol. Kush already going at it. Hey guys. I'm debears. This is my second game ever of mafia. I have a couple of things to add: + Show Spoiler +Show nested quote +On September 28 2012 09:18 DarthPunk wrote:On September 28 2012 09:10 Z-BosoN wrote:On September 28 2012 08:43 DarthPunk wrote: It is not impossible to find scum on the first day. Policy lynches get you no info, you are most likely going to hit a townie, and you end up in the same position the next day minus 2 town. @Djodref your 'day plan' is unnecessary. Scum hunt, vote for your top scum read and everything else will fall into place. After LVII I'm rather liking the idea of policy lynches, in extreme cases. Killing lurkers in a lurker-infested town, for example, is something I'm inclined to agree on. If the town proves itself active, then whoever proves himself scummier will occupy the noose. Given that this is a newbie game, scums are generally more scared to post. While that is a general tendency, I don't agree with mass posters being cleared right off the bat, even if their posts seem meaningful. What I suggest in this game, is that people read. From my few games, much time is usually wasted discussing things that have not been read properly. On September 28 2012 06:56 Sonic Death Monkey wrote: Cool, we're on. Pretty bad timing though, I'm off to bed and then I've got a day at uni before I can really start posting. I hope to God when I get back we've moved past the lurker policy discussion. My message to newbies: the best way for you to clear yourself is to post a lot. Don't post just for the sake of posting though, that'll make you look like scum because posting for the sake of posting is what scum do. This is a rather useless post. Newbie towns want to scumhunt. Newbie scum want to look like they are scumhunting. That =/= posting a lot but not for the sake of posting, or whatever you meant. And please tell me, what do you mean? You say you hope to have moved past the lurker discussion, and yet you are telling people to post a lot? In my eyes you are telling people not to lurk because that will make them seem scummy. It seems to me that you are indirectly stating your views on lurkers despite openly saying you don't want to talk about them. Meh. Don't like lurker policy lynches at all. It just tells scum: Post. and your safe. I have read every post so far as scummy and I don't see SDM's post as more or less scummy than the others. But posting a lot will let people get a good read on you so you should 100% be doing this as town. And then if all the townies are posting you force scum to. Which makes it much easier to nab them also. SO. Post a lot if you are town. You make scum uncomfortable and facilitate town reads on yourself and scum reads on scum. You also clutter the thread if you just post alot. Let me specify. Post quality as often as you can. That means reread the thread and build good cases. One liners don't do much good. Cases with multiple quotes and a few sentences of explanation per quote are good (most of the time). Also, USE YOUR COACHES TOWN. Thrawn pmed Hapa over 50 times last game and he had the best town performance. That isn't a coincidence. @Kush I don't like the way you are starting off this game kush. It's eerily similar as last game when you were mafia. You mention you're deathless streak, nk, and your scummy meta without anyone bringing it up. You should know that I most likely know you're trends better than anyone else in this game. The only difference between this game and last is that you have engaged in a flame war with Darth this game, which is unhelpful to our town. FOS Kush@everyone One more thing: Feel free to accuse and build cases on anyone you want for the first 24 hours. However, let's start tunneling for the second 24 hours. Also, I would like everyone to start considering a lurker (in your head) once we hit the second 24 hours as a backup. If we get close to the lynch deadline, and there are no scummy candidates, feel free to post a good case on which lurker would be the best candidate. First of all, his "I want town to win!!" post telling town to use their coaches. He then FoS's Kush, due to the fact that he's playing a similar game as the one he was scum. He says that DP + kush flame war is bad for the town, but doesn't attack Darthpunk, probably because he finds kush to be more scummy looking. Now, from a townie perspective, what does debear want? Information in order to lynch kush, as he pointed a FOS mostly based on a meta read. But suddenly, towards darthpunk: snip --You could also say that you are too convinced in your reasons. What I am cautious of at this point is that you stated directly before the game that you were after kush if he plays like he has in his past 3 games. I feel like that may be clouding your judgement in this situation.
Our main goal is to lynch mafia. Yes, kush has said some scummy things. However, I'm not gonna go around parading this early saying "kush is scum. Kush is scum. OMFG".
Also, let the man defend himself instead of trying to rally everyone active behind your cause so early. If he is scummy, the votes will come. He is defensive towards kush. That's not how townies think. While I agree that DP is a bit overboard on kush, I don't agree that he failed to give arguments as to why he thinks that is so. A townie with a FOS on someone will want to deal with the arguments first. He doesn't do that, and suddenly becomes defensive on Kush. He says, later: I'm not defending him as much as I'm trying to tell you that you are going overboard right now. You don't have to rush in annointing him scum. He is more bothered by DPs certainty than by his actual arguments. Inconsistency #1. He then comes up with two cases. One against me, and one against Djoref: @Boson + Show Spoiler +On September 28 2012 09:10 Z-BosoN wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2012 08:43 DarthPunk wrote: It is not impossible to find scum on the first day. Policy lynches get you no info, you are most likely going to hit a townie, and you end up in the same position the next day minus 2 town. @Djodref your 'day plan' is unnecessary. Scum hunt, vote for your top scum read and everything else will fall into place. After LVII I'm rather liking the idea of policy lynches, in extreme cases. Killing lurkers in a lurker-infested town, for example, is something I'm inclined to agree on. If the town proves itself active, then whoever proves himself scummier will occupy the noose. Given that this is a newbie game, scums are generally more scared to post. While that is a general tendency, I don't agree with mass posters being cleared right off the bat, even if their posts seem meaningful. What I suggest in this game, is that people read. From my few games, much time is usually wasted discussing things that have not been read properly. Show nested quote +On September 28 2012 06:56 Sonic Death Monkey wrote: Cool, we're on. Pretty bad timing though, I'm off to bed and then I've got a day at uni before I can really start posting. I hope to God when I get back we've moved past the lurker policy discussion. My message to newbies: the best way for you to clear yourself is to post a lot. Don't post just for the sake of posting though, that'll make you look like scum because posting for the sake of posting is what scum do. This is a rather useless post. Newbie towns want to scumhunt. Newbie scum want to look like they are scumhunting. That =/= posting a lot but not for the sake of posting, or whatever you meant. And please tell me, what do you mean? You say you hope to have moved past the lurker discussion, and yet you are telling people to post a lot? In my eyes you are telling people not to lurk because that will make them seem scummy. It seems to me that you are indirectly stating your views on lurkers despite openly saying you don't want to talk about them. Boson, please try not to read too hard into a person's very first posts and make something out of nothing. It is pretty clear what sonic was saying. He wants newbies to post so that they don't get grouped under the lurker corral that usually follows up later. Last game, we had lurkers galore and it really messed up the town. Also, you mention that his post is useless. Now I will examine your two other posts in terms of uselessness. On September 28 2012 09:12 Z-BosoN wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2012 09:01 kushm4sta wrote:On September 28 2012 08:34 DarthPunk wrote:On September 28 2012 06:58 kushm4sta wrote: @sonic getting everyone's thoughts on lurker policy is important. Don't argue about it but share your views on the matter please.. No it's not. It is simply a mechanism to get the discussion going and allows scum to seem to participate and to potentially mislynch an inactive townie. Any more talk of policy will get you FoS'd. Sorry but who appointed this asshole boss? you get people's thoughts on lurker policy, so you can catch them deviating from it later and question them about it. And why are you that scared of a FOS? A one-liner. A question that really doesn't accomplish anything. In other words, a useless post. Also, your next post doesn't address his response although he responded right after and you posted within 30 minutes of his response in a pretty light thread. On September 28 2012 09:43 Z-BosoN wrote: @DP
Saying we will lynch lurkers is one thing. Deciding whether a lurker should die later at day two is another. What I said is I'm inclined to lynch a lurker if there aren't better choices, not that we will 100% lynch a lurker.
@Stutters
I'd like to see more posts from you. In XXIV you showed you were capable of making decent posts as town, so I encourage you to post eve more here.
@kush
What's your view on darthpunk? You said you don't like his coldness, but you don't like it in a "he's scum" sort of way? Yet again, nothing of substance here. You go more in depth about semantics (is that the right word I'm looking for?) about lynching lurkers and lynching lurkers at day two. Second, you call out stutters, who has already been warned by others and most likely the mods for no reason this early in the game. Finally, two sentences, two questions going on about the exact wording of kush's statements. It sounded like before the game you had stated that you have played in multiple games. Is that true? For someone who is telling other people to not post useless posts, you aren't doing a good job of it yourself. Looks more like you are trying to just be active while off the radar. In other words, you are a semi-active lurker who has bad post quality. Sounds like characteristics of a certain alignment. @Djoref+ Show Spoiler +On September 28 2012 08:51 Djodref wrote: @Darthpunk
Nevermind you look just more confident to get a scum on D1 than me.
Regarding my plan, I think we need general directions to follow because of the majority lynch. It is a way to gather everybody around 2-3 suspicious players and secure a lynch. I'm assuming everyone agree on a no-lynch to be stupid.
Djoref, I don't like that statement at all. That's the second post you bring up about the likelihood of lynching a townie d1. As town, you should never have that mentality. I would probably less likely to bring this up if you were a total nooby. However, you said you "know Kush's meta" which means you have some decent understanding of the game for a noob. By saying this, it seems that you are setting yourself an excuse to be indecisive later in the day when the lynch voting comes around. Alone, it isn't much. However, your other posts don't help. On September 28 2012 08:44 Djodref wrote: @Darthpunk
Considering that we are likely to lynch a town on D1, don't you think it's a lesser wrong to get rid of someone inactive ? Inactivity means no scumhunt and room to hide for the mafia...
After playing mafia last game, I feel like heavy lurking is a bad play for mafia. It puts too much pressure on you are as a scum. Instead, posting lightly without much substance is more mafia indicative. Yet again, I feel you are just looking like you are contributing without saying much. Especially when you already covered your thoughts in a previous post. On September 28 2012 08:36 Djodref wrote:Hello everybody ! About meThis is my first game ever on forum but I've been playing on SC2mafia and also irl. But I've been lurking on the TL Mafia forum for a while (so I know your meta kush^^) and I decided to join this newbie game. I'm also a French guy and I live in Korea so my english is not on top and it's going to ne difficult for me to be around at deadline (5.00 am KST). Lurker policyFrom the games I've seen, unless you have a golden scumslip on d1, it's very difficult to lynch a scum the very first day. So I have no problem ending up voting for the most suspicious lurker at the end of the day. I define most suspicious lurker as a semi-lurker just trying to blend in.Day PlanI don't think to be able to be around for the first deadline so I would like to propose a day plan to secure a lynch as we are using a majority vote. First 24 hours to find lynch candidates while scumhunting and next 20 hours to decide who is the scummiest. Last 4 hours to consolidate the vote or switch to a lurker. Please discuss Notice how you are just repeating points? It isn't helpful to us. Next post On September 28 2012 11:09 Djodref wrote:@Kush Was it also a joke ? How can you be so sure you are not going to be NKed ? A two sentence, two question post. I don't like these. They are worthless. Also, this question came quite a bit later after darthpunk already was asking questions about joking. You seem to be sheeping onto darth's case against kush. On September 28 2012 11:53 Djodref wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2012 11:22 kushm4sta wrote:
Because the most active townie is tunneling me?
I would also like to hear you explanations about this specific part. I don't have a read on Darth on the moment considering he has only been hard tunneling you. As you said yourself you have a scummy meta so you are an easy target for early game to put pressure on. So what makes him so much town ? Yet again, this post is just repeating what darth is saying. Another question. I don't like this. Your early posts are indicative of a semi-active scum. Sheeping, question posts, and rehashing things already said multiple times. Notice the similarity between the two. He attacks us for asking questions (later on denies that they provide any discussion whatsoever), and falls into the same "semi-active lurker" category he's sniffing about. I will ignore the quality of his arguments, which I personally think are horrible, and will look more towards their similarity. From his case against me:A one-liner. A question that really doesn't accomplish anything. In other words, a useless post. Also, your next post doesn't address his response although he responded right after and you posted within 30 minutes of his response in a pretty light thread. For someone who is telling other people to not post useless posts, you aren't doing a good job of it yourself. Looks more like you are trying to just be active while off the radar. In other words, you are a semi-active lurker who has bad post quality. Sounds like characteristics of a certain alignment. From his case against Djoref:A two sentence, two question post. I don't like these. They are worthless. Also, this question came quite a bit later after darthpunk already was asking questions about joking. You seem to be sheeping onto darth's case against kush. Your early posts are indicative of a semi-active scum. Sheeping, question posts, and rehashing things already said multiple times. See the similarity, especially the bolded part? It seems that he has this "semi-active scum" cake recipe that he is using to sniff out scum. He also calls us out on our posting quality, in my case saying it is bad. I won't address his next post towards me because I've already done so, and because it doesn't increase his scumminess , as "bad cases =/= scum" (although it pisses me off). Anyways, now to the main stuff. He has a case against me and Djoref, for pretty much the same reasoning. Yet, check out what his next post on Djoref is: On September 29 2012 01:55 debears wrote:@Djoref On September 28 2012 15:22 Djodref wrote: @DarthPunk
For your information, i consider the comments of debears on my posts legitimate. Let me say that I even don't like them. Currently reading the guides and older game analysis. Please pm marv for help. The coaches are great Wtf??? What ?? Where is his case against Djoref?? He goes from a scummy-looking sheep with one liners to a "townie who should pm marv for help"? Could he have forgotten that Djoref was one of his main suspicions? Inconsistency #2
Note that I no longer think that his defense of SDM is scummy. I've gone over that a few times and I admit that it can also come from a townie perspective. To summarize, here are the main inconsistencies in his play that scream to me SCUM: 1) He had a FOS on kush, then hurried on to defend him, in the manner I've shown above. I cannot fathom for the life of me having a FOS on someone and suddenly feel like I have to address an exaggeration on that person before I actually address the case. 2) He completely absolves Djoref for absolutely no reason. Townies do not throw around suspicions only to insta-drop them. 3) The other supporting arguments I've shown above.debears is SCUM!##vote debears Hi z bozon. Inconsistencies do not make someone scum. Also it's quite funny how you are so certain this early in the game. To summarize this awesome post: your case is not strong. you are overconfident in your scumread. But oh they can. Scum can't genuinely scumhunt, and will usually make mistakes in doing so. This early in the game, debears has managed to quickly change his mind about pursuing scum not once, but twice. Him just forgetting all about Djoref and basically assuming him to be town was just ??SDFG ?A?SDF?A?SDF?. His inconsistencies to me look more scummy then townie, especially when looking at how repetitive his arguments are. Who do you think is a better lynch then, kush? Grace us with a case.
I would like to know how I changed my mind twice on scumhunting. Just because someone looks scummy, we don’t need to bash their heads in with the same evidence over and over and over again. In kush’s case, Darth had gone overboard and was sufficiently bashing in kush’s head by himself. What’s the point in me picking up a club and going after him when he was afk?
In Djo’s case, I called him out for the quality of his posting. He is a newbie. I decided it was best to not attack him and let him actually get into the game. As I said, I don’t read too much into early posts.
Also, the reason why I “changed my mind” is that Z-boson was becoming a scum read to me. His OMGUS FOS set off alarms in my head. His posts since then are picking out only the mafia motivations or stating the townie motivations and instantly discarding them. It is hard to split my focus on 3 people at a time, so I’d rather worry about Z-Bo and Kush than chase a newbie around.
Alright on to another post
+ Show Spoiler +QUOTE]On September 29 2012 06:41 Z-BosoN wrote: kush this "act" you are playing is not helping you, and is not helping town. Man the fuck up and make cases against people, try to defend yourself. I'd much rather lynch debears because I find the arguments against him to be much more substantial than the ones against you, which are mostly meta-based. I disagree with a meta-based lynch when I've provided real arguments against someone else (which, incidentally you shat on. It seems like you actually want to get lynched) If you are town that is. If you are scum, go ahead and keep moaning, I'll gladly choose you over debears. [/QUOTE] Yet again, he doesn’t like the case against kush, yet one of the main parts of his scumread on me was that I defended kush. + Show Spoiler + On September 29 2012 10:28 Z-BosoN wrote:
READ
An interesting snippet from the op: Show nested quote +Play to win. This means you play your best to help your team win while you are alive and in the game. However, this does not mean that you should try to win by being a jerk to the other players so they all want to quit playing. So, read my exchange with him. I try a billion times to help him, and what does he do? Choose to mock me case and be insulting. That's not playing to win if he's town. His sudden change of attitude probably came from a mod-warning, due to what I've quoted, and I'll assume this to be true. Now I have two train of thoughts that I'm killing myself over: 1) Lynch him. He's bad to have in the endgame and is a detriment to the town, no matter his alignment. His change of attitude might have come from his scummy friends, because I sure as hell couldn't sway him. 2) Assume he is a townie. Why can we do that? Because I am almost certain that his change of attitude came from a mod-warning. If he was mafia he wouldn't have gotten a mod-warning, because his play could have very well been some schematics or whatever. However, there is no town-motivation for his play whatsoever, and the way he mocked me is a completely infant behavior that does not go with a "play-to-win" scenario. However... There is one instance where he could have gotten a mod-warning as mafia. Observe this post: Show nested quote +On September 29 2012 07:44 kushm4sta wrote: debears I saved you bro...scumteam 4 lyfe If debears is indeed mafia, he would have gotten a mod-warning for basically giving in his teammate. This makes a lot of sense, if we can assume he got a mod-warning. And SO I propose.... We lynch him. If I am correct in my assessment and he flips scum, then debears is most likely also scum and kush managed to ruin the game. If he flips town, then we are down someone who will be a detriment to the town, so I'm confident he is a good lynch for us right now. '
This post…..Not only is it an association case, it’s an association case BASED ON MOD WARNINGS and assuming a mod warning off one random post of kush’s, especially when that post references the scum team that I was on with kush in the last game…
Boson is going out of his way to pin me as scum, especially before kush even flips….I don’t get this.
Next post,
+ Show Spoiler +On September 29 2012 11:03 Z-BosoN wrote:Show nested quote +On September 29 2012 10:36 debears wrote: @kush
The ambiguous statement i made qbout you in the start of my vote post was addressed to your feeling of hoplessness despite your early enthusiasm
@k boson
You're association case is assuming way too much. Use ockhams razor. We can't assume modwarnings. That is ridiculous. Especially when using that reason to cherrypick his posts to create an association case That only adds to the fact that I already have a strong scumread of you. Whatever his alignment, I'm pushing for you next.
So he says two things here.
1) That the post he quoted “added” to his scumread. Then he makes NO MENTION of why it does.
2) He specifically states that he is going for me no matter the outcome. Why has he already done this without seeing the flip? Seems like he knows kush’s alignment and doesn’t have to consider what is going on here today…
Next post
On September 29 2012 11:32 Z-BosoN wrote: DP, did you read my exchange with him? It's pointless discussing with him. I think it would be more productive if you would read my case on debears and see if you agree with it.
I don’t understand why Boson is lobbying his case against me still. It is a weak case based on mafia assumptions only. I hate this kind of play. If your case is good, people will believe it and vote for it. He is trying so hard to have his notions confirmed.
Final part of this (thank god)
On September 29 2012 14:12 Z-BosoN wrote: They are probably just echoing the suspicion I posted earlier, concerning my assumption on mods. It's a theory I have in case he pops scum. Don't treat it as an argument. Treat my case as an argument. Everyone who’s experience knows association cases are dumb without a flip unless it’s late game. You are making an early game association case and you make a huge post about it. How is that not an argument? Now you have everyone saying “debears is likely scum”.
FOS Z-Boson
If kush did not implode this game, I would be voting for Z-Boson right now.
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On September 29 2012 16:26 Djodref wrote:@debearsso let me reformulate my question so we can understand each other better this time What is your read about me so far ? [*]town [*]null [*]scum You can use quantitative adjectives [/list][/list]
null right now. Just was working on Boson. Will look into you more though
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@zbo
I'm gonna try to do this from my phone.
EXCEPT THAT YOU HAD A FOS ON HIM!!!! Do you know what it means to be suspicious of someone? You don't follow up a case you've made against someone with: "look for coaches", they help town a lot!! You didn't say explicitly that you thought him town, but you absolutely ignore your previous post on him only to never mention it again. This reeks of an empty case, you know, the ones that mafia are forced to make.
When did i have a FOS against djo? You put this under the section against djo.
Another thing i want to address is your assumption that early d1 posts and cases carry a lot of weight. They don't.my cases against you and djo were based on the suspiciousness of your posts. They weren't full on you're scum in depth cases. Besides, people change their minds a bit on d1.
The next thing i want to address is your assumption on the weight and meaning of a fos. To me, a fos is a heads up that Im suspicious of you qnd ill be watching. It doesnt necessarily mean I'm gonna make a huge case on you.
Finally, i want to address your assumptions of what townies do d1. As a townie, i have no idea who is what. Its confusing as hell. Why wouldnt i change my mind and explore more than kush d1. There are more than 1 scum.
How am i supposed to know whether darth himself is scum trying to push an easy target (i will expand more on this tonight when i am at my computer) or whether he is a townie truly overconfident in his belief about kush being scum. A good case doesnt necessarily mean someone is town. Look at my case against thrawn last game.
Finally, why does everyone seem so damn confident in their reads? Especially on day 1?
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@DP
Alsn and Corrosion are your other two im betting.
I'm making a case on both, with corrosion first.
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@DP
My second case that I mentioned last night was going to be SDM, for his meta this game is way off from last game in terms of activity. However, his posts are solid so far. Thus, I'm not gonna waste my time when there are others that need to be addressed.
@Boson
When looking for scum after the lynch of kush, my main targets are people who voted after it was clear that he was doomed. Also, I look at who doubted the reasoning for kush's lynch before he became doomed and then suddenly switched after he was doomed. All 4 of those lurkers fall into the category of voting for him after it was clear he would be lynched. Another person to add to this list is Alsn (who I will address later).
By my count, the voting happened in this order
1)DP(cancel later) 2)Stutters 3)SDM 4)Z-Boson 5)Me 6)Omniscient 7)DP 8)RemedySC 9)Djodret 10)Corrosion 11)Alsn
In terms of the 4 lurkers you wanted me to look at, I believe Corrosion would be the most likely scum. 1) Remedy's posting has been better than last games. I don't see anything eye popping 2) Djodref - He is wish washy with his convictions and seems easily persuaded. However, his case against corrosion seems to bear weight
Those two are null reads for me atm. Now for the second two. Both come off as scummy. 3) Omniscient - His first big post
Show nested quote +On September 29 2012 01:31 Omniscient4983 wrote:On the whole Kush-scumslip ordeal... The game began, and people were stating their opinions about lurking lynching. DP notes that talk of this policy is simply a way to engage day 1 conversation, and that extended discussion of it can be suspicious. Kush then says: On September 28 2012 09:01 kushm4sta wrote:
Sorry but who appointed this asshole boss?
It's quite the arrogant remark, to be honest. DP may have been a little stern with his wording, but he certainly didn't come off as an "asshole boss" to me. In my opinion, Kush came on too strong regardless of his role--and i certainly don't like the play. People have mentioned his "scummy meta", but I don't read it as scum, just inconsiderate. This remark catapulted into the DP-Kush arguments. When Kush refers to DP as an "active townie", DP accuses him of a huge slip. On September 28 2012 11:27 DarthPunk wrote:
How do you know I am town? You are SCUM The accusation was simple reciprocation. Kush was strong with DP, and now DP is going hard on him with evidence. Fair enough. While the aforementioned scumslip could have been a townie error, I find Kush's response underwhelming, and still, a bit arrogant. On September 28 2012 20:12 kushm4sta wrote:
2. My supposed scumslip: huh? What else should I have called you? Player? Person? Maybe but to me those things sound awkward. Townie just seemed like the most non awkward word to use. Innocent until proven guilty. That's how we do it in America bro.
To me, "The most active player; the most active person" don't seem awkward to me. The excuse is weak. And the "bro" at the end is telling of people with weak defenses that need to seem confident. Those are just my thoughts on Kush so far: Reckless, overconfident, and a little suspicious.
A summary of the kush saga, no in depth analysis, he's a "little suspicious"
The next post about kush
Show nested quote +On September 29 2012 02:40 Omniscient4983 wrote: @ Z-BosoN
The narrative was intentional; both to reiterate events and to weave my thoughts into it.
My stance is pretty clear on Kush. He's definitely a possible lynch candidate in my eyes, but I wouldn't go as far as to vote him just yet.
Yet again, hasn't really stated a strong position. His only posts in terms of cases are about kush, yet doesn't really make a real read.
Finally, the vote post
On September 29 2012 09:44 Omniscient4983 wrote:Woosh, I get back from a little dinner and find Kush complaining about 2 votes and giving up on the world. From a gameplay perspective, I don't feel the whining is conveying any sort of innocence. The dramatization / apologizing is being overplayed. As debears put it, Kush is either: Show nested quote +On September 29 2012 09:08 debears wrote:
1) Mafia trying to pity your way out of being lynched. or 2) A little bitch
##Vote: Kush
He quickly turned from not being sure to voting based on my reasoning, although he is suspicious of me at this point, as shown by this post
On September 29 2012 11:48 Omniscient4983 wrote: @Kush
I found Z-BosoN's case to bear much validity, actually. It confirmed the suspicions I had when debears instantly assumed djodref was a townie. How was his case so, erm, "try harded"?
After the lynch, his posts go off a little bit.
+ Show Spoiler +On September 30 2012 06:27 Omniscient4983 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 30 2012 06:09 Djodref wrote:
I would like people to focus more on corrosion than debears because corrosion tired to cast a scummy shadow on Darth while deabears looks more genuine.
I agree we should take the focus off of Debears, as Z-BosoN did a fair job of outlining the points against him. But why Corrosion? I realize he opposed the fact that Darth was so heavily attacking Kush, but I don't think he was casting him in a "scummy shadow". His case against Darth was based on nothing, really; just the fact that he thought pursuing the scum-slip and ignoring everyone else was a poor idea. I don't read Corrosion as scum at all. And Debears in no way looks more genuine than him.
For someone suspicious of me, I do find it odd that you suddenly want to shift focus off me. Also, your defense of corrosion was odd. His posts have been scummy (bear with me on this one I am addressing Corrosion after omniscient).
This next post is the first actual, original case I've seen him post
Show nested quote +On September 30 2012 07:21 Omniscient4983 wrote:I've been reading through RemedySC's filter. I found his last post in particular a bit odd. + Show Spoiler +On September 29 2012 21:59 corrosion wrote: Let me just state the reasons that my vote is on Kush right now:
I'm sorry, but I don't believe these are reasons a town would choose to make a vote. On September 29 2012 21:59 corrosion wrote: 1) I think his explanation of the slip was poor. If he had given a good explanation, I might have believed him. So the scum slip itself doesn't give you good reason to vote for him, but his poor defense does? A mafia making a scum slip could have the best explanation in the world. That doesn't exonerate them. On September 29 2012 21:59 corrosion wrote: 2) I've been thinking about who would benefit if the result is a no-lynch. I'm thinking mafia is likely to benefit the most from a no-lynch.
So your second reason isn't even something that Kush has done. Wouldn't you also say that mafia would benefit from a mis-lynch more than from a no-lynch? Could you elaborate more on the bolded part, because you give no explanation as to how a mafia would benefit more from a no-lynch. On September 29 2012 21:59 corrosion wrote: Right now, I think that there's more than a 25 % chance that Kush is scum. Therefore, I'm voting for him. I'm not sure if any of these points are original. I'm having trouble keeping up with the thread, because I tend to get hanged up in details.
You would think a town would want to be more than 25% sure the person they are voting for is scum. You don't even have any cases made against kush. No questions asked. Very vague reasons given...I find it odd that RSC was attacking Corrosion for voting Kush. At this point in the game, RSC had already cast his vote for Kush, and his best reason was: On September 29 2012 12:14 RemedySC wrote:
You [Kush] are not creating an ideal atmosphere.
RSC doesn't really have much motivation for voting Kush, other than the fact that he's disruptive to the gameplay environment. Yet, he picks apart Corrosion for voting him. I don't understand why he'd attack Corrosion's "poor reasons" at all. Take a look at the bolded part of the spoiler. He condemns Corrosion for not having made any cases again Kush, yet RSC himself hasn't done anything of the sort. RSC hasn't posted anything in regards to Kush being scum besides the "creating a bad atmosphere" and "not posting in a pro-town manner" argument. RSC doesn't seem to be any more sure than Corrosion is about lynching Kush, yet he is condemning Corrosion for having bad reasoning. His post seems hypocritical to me. @RemedySC Why, if you had voted Kush with such little evidence, were you outing Corrosion for doing something similar? You almost seemed as if you were defending Kush for no reason in this post.I'm curious, and would like to hear your opinion on things.
I feel as though he didn't sufficiently read Remedy's arguments, which were decent. I'm not sure if Omniscient realized this but corrosion was making a case on darth, the primary attacker of kush. By refuting Corrosion's argument about DP, Remedy was actually helping the case against kush.
Show nested quote +On September 30 2012 09:10 Omniscient4983 wrote:@RemedySCAppreciate the response. I somewhat misinterpreted your goal in the post concerning Corrosion. Now that I look at it, the second reason for Corrosion's voting Kush is actually ridiculous. On a side note - are most people in this game asleep when we are able to post? Seems that way. Time differences
He seems to understand what remedy was saying.
Overall, this isn't a strong case. For that reason I'm going to wait for more posts from Omniscient.
Corrosion, on the other hand, has stronger evidence piling up.
First, his call out of remedy early in the game was unwarranted
Show nested quote +On September 29 2012 02:47 corrosion wrote: @Remedy
You made two posts without much content early on D1, and there's been nothing since then. You implied that you were going to contribute more than last game you played. So why don't you tell us about your reads so far?
He wants Remedy to post more and tell him about Remedy's reads. However, he had not posted any reads of his own at this point. It's contradicting. Something that can make him look like he's contributing.
Now, on to him post about Darth
Show nested quote +On September 29 2012 04:29 corrosion wrote:I'm just going to address the "fight" between Darth and Kush. I'm going to focus on Darth for now. Looking more closely into Kush's contribution is something I think should be done well ahead of lynch time. I'm actually going to start by telling about some thoughts I had after reading my role PM. I was trying to figure out what players town should be focusing on. I had obsed NMMXXVII, and came to the conclusion that it might be reasonable to go after any player except Kush. I figured that Kush was going to make a lot of posts anyway, so I was thinking that we could get a good analysis of him without any early pressure. One of the first things Darth did was to antagonize Kush: + Show Spoiler +On September 28 2012 08:34 DarthPunk wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2012 06:58 kushm4sta wrote: @sonic getting everyone's thoughts on lurker policy is important. Don't argue about it but share your views on the matter please.. No it's not. It is simply a mechanism to get the discussion going and allows scum to seem to participate and to potentially mislynch an inactive townie. Any more talk of policy will get you FoS'd. I'm thinking that this could easily be an attempt to start a fight that would result in derailing the thread. Kush responded the way I expected him to, and these two posters exchanged arguments back and forth. In the middle of this, Darth made a remark against lurkers, but quickly changed his focus back on Kush. On September 28 2012 10:36 DarthPunk wrote: So is everyone just going to drop their welcome posts and then afk? I don't see why he should make this comment at this time, since it wasn't going to get looked at while there was a fight going on.Shortly afterwards, Kush makes his supposed scum slip. Darth jumps on it, and shortly afterwards he posts about his previous mafia games. I 've watched the game where he played cop, and seen that he and Shady argued a lot on D1. So I was thinking that this seems to be Darth's town meta. But I also asked myself why he did post about his previous games at this point in time. Maybe this was all intentional. Suppose he suddenly remembered that game. He might not have wanted people to look at those games earlier, but now he realized that if he posted them he would be able to establish a town read on himself.I'm not sure if this is a strong case against Darth at the moment. I would like some input from the more experienced players here. If Kush hadn't made that slip, I think the derailing argument would have looked strong. Now it doesn't look so strong, because we've actually gotten new information. I'm not saying that I'm sure the scum slip is an actual slip, but if it is and it results in a succesful lynch, I think town got very lucky. Scum usually wouldn't slip in such an obvious manner.His cases against Debears and Alsn are something that might reveal useful information, but I've not studied them closely yet. I still think that Kush seems more suspicious when everything is taken into consideration but with all the focus that has been on him, I'm sure someone else can post a decent case on him before we need to consider our first lynch.
This post really raised my eyes looking back at it. First, he mentions darth's "everybody stop leaving after your intro" post. He doesn't see reason although the reason is clear at that moment: everyone was doing that.
Next, he brings up about why darth brought up darth's past games. It was pretty easy to see at that point that I asked darth for that information. This indicates to me that he(corrosion) wasn't reading the thread. He was most likely skimming. At all stages in the game, a townie must be reading and rereading the thread, since a townie has no extra information and townies have to catch the mafia. Mafia, on the other hand, don't have to do the same. They can get away with skimming since they just need to keep the town distracted.
Now, I'm going to pull out the phrase with red
I'm not saying that I'm sure the scum slip is an actual slip, but if it is and it results in a succesful lynch, I think town got very lucky. Scum usually wouldn't slip in such an obvious manner.
Notice the wording, "I think town got lucky". Not we, the town. He seems to be excluding himself from us. Not strong at all in itself, but something to notice. If he thinks that town would be lucky if kush flipped red, then it is sensible to assume that he thinks kush is town.
Next post,
+ Show Spoiler +On September 29 2012 07:17 corrosion wrote:Show nested quote +On September 29 2012 05:50 Z-BosoN wrote: corrosion, some issues with your post.
...
You're not seeing my points in the proper context. Now maybe you think my analysis is weak. I can understand that view. I haven't played in one of these before, so I'm not really good at seeing the difference between weak arguments and strong arguments. Some of the other posters in the thread encouraged new players to post, but maybe I should have waited awhile and tried to build a really solid case. Show nested quote + Who are you more inclined to vote on and why? I can't tell by the wishy-washy tone of your post
I haven't made up mind yet, so I'll be voting tomorrow. I'm thinking Kush, but I'll browse the latest developments tomorrow and see if anything has changed by then.
So he thinks kush will most likely be town, yet he is thinking about voting for him? That's not sensible.
Show nested quote +On September 29 2012 17:57 corrosion wrote:Good morning. I'm going to comment on a couple of things. + Show Spoiler +On September 29 2012 10:59 DarthPunk wrote:Addressing a few things that stood out to me. Show nested quote +On September 29 2012 04:29 corrosion wrote: Darth jumps on it, and shortly afterwards he posts about his previous mafia games. I've watched the game where he played cop, and seen that he and Shady argued a lot on D1. So I was thinking that this seems to be Darth's town meta. But I also asked myself why he did post about his previous games at this point in time. Maybe this was all intentional. Suppose he suddenly remembered that game. He might not have wanted people to look at those games earlier, but now he realized that if he posted them he would be able to establish a town read on himself. So yeah I went back through the thread to address this specifically. I was asked to post my previous mafia games. and then I did. And now that is some sort of attempt for me to use my meta to clear myself? Right. ... You're absolutely right. I see that you posted links to your previous games only a few minutes after Debears requested it. I missed this because I was just looking through your filter and didn't keep enough attention on the thread itself. My bad. I'm going to look at Stutter's case against Kush and other recent developments. For now, I'll vote as I implied in my last post. ##Vote Kushm4sta
So, the one whom he thought would be a "lucky" scum flip is now his biggest scum read? In my eyes, this sudden flip can be easily explained if he is mafia. At this point, he is the second to last person to vote for kush. Kush is doomed. If he is mafia, he realizes there is no reason and should hop on the bandwagon. Notice that his reasoning is poor in previous posts. He never had a strong indication of kush as mafia.
Furthermore, I want to point out that his only case at this point was kush. He had not done any scumhunting up to this point besides a one liner saying that I confirmed Djordref as town. You can say it's scumhunting but one line =/= a case.
Hist next post is a response to Z-Boson. His responses are in the red (it's how he formatted it in his original post).
+ Show Spoiler +On September 29 2012 18:43 corrosion wrote:Adressing your issues: + Show Spoiler +
3) You are just rambling here, I think. I take the DP/kush exchange as being genuine, unless they are both scum and agreed to flaming each other. I don't think thta's likely, due to kush's fiery meta.
The first paragraph was a mistake by me, explained in my previous post. The intention of the second paragraph, was to try to get some feedback from other posters. Right now, I don't think the case is strong at all so I actually think people should focus more on their own reads and trying to find the best lynching candidate.
4) I don't get the reasoning behind this post. You are trying to make a case on DP, and concluded that you don't feel like it and actually think that kush is a better lynch? Also, stutters has made a case on him. Why not reference that?
I wasn't as much trying to make a case as just referencing my findings. I was trying the approach of focusing on one player (suggested in one of the guides). I figured that someone else was going to post a case on Kush, so I tried to focus on a player that noone else was pressuring much. I'll admit that my attempt seems to have failed quite a bit. The reason that I didn't reference Stutters, was that he made his case 7 minutes before I posted. I did not check the thread for new posts before I posted.
This post is another one that makes me scratch my head. He has a vote on kush, who he doesn't think will flip scum, and a case on DP. He drops the case on DP, now calling it a "reference" and stating that he "wasn't trying to make a case".
Here, he finally states his reasoning for voting kush. Notice the timestamp. Way after his vote
On September 29 2012 21:59 corrosion wrote: Let me just state the reasons that my vote is on Kush right now:
1) I think his explanation of the slip was poor. If he had given a good explanation, I might have believed him. 2) I've been thinking about who would benefit if the result is a no-lynch. I'm thinking mafia is likely to benefit the most from a no-lynch.
Right now, I think that there's more than a 25 % chance that Kush is scum. Therefore, I'm voting for him. I'm not sure if any of these points are original. I'm having trouble keeping up with the thread, because I tend to get hanged up in details.
His point 1) Notice the timestamp of his vote post. Now, look at the timestamp of kush's explanation
+ Show Spoiler +On September 28 2012 20:12 kushm4sta wrote: Sup have to make this post real quick. Will read everything and post on my phone late.r
1. Why are you putting my name in red like darth? it seems like you are subliminally trying to influence people to your cause. This is a game of logic not advertising.
2. My supposed scumslip: huh? What else should I have called you? Player? Person? Maybe but to me those things sound awkward. Townie just seemed like the most non awkward word to use. Innocent until proven guilty. That's how we do it in America bro.
Corrosion's vote came way after the explanation. He had made no mention about disliking the explanation even through his vote post. The only time he brings it up is way after the vote post when he decides to suddenly explain the reasoning for his vote
On pt 2) What did the no lynch have to do with his vote on kush? A no lynch was not even in the discussion. At this point, there were 2 good candidates for lynching. Me and Kush. This is all way too odd to ignore.
And finally, the last post I will look at
+ Show Spoiler +On September 30 2012 05:16 corrosion wrote:Show nested quote +On September 29 2012 05:50 Z-BosoN wrote: corrosion, some issues with your post.
3) You are just rambling here, I think. I take the DP/kush exchange as being genuine, unless they are both scum and agreed to flaming each other. I don't think thta's likely, due to kush's fiery meta.
I considered the possibility of both being scum early on but if both were scum, I see no reason whatsoever for Kush's scumslip. So I'm now saying that Darth is close to being confirmed town. This is something town should keep in mind during N1 and D2. It would be a spectacular bus if they did this on purpose. The only reason I can see for doing that, would be if Kush had slipped earlier in the thread. I do not think so but if someone wants to look into it, go ahead. I'm not going to spend my time on that.
So he still has some suspicions in regard to DP, whom he was suspicious of d1. Yet, he says that some one else can check it out. He seems to not care about scumhunting and following his leads. He is not exhibiting townie behavior. If the town should keep it in mind, why isn't he researching it to help our cause?
Overall, I could see Corrosion as scum. He follows the trend of what I look for. He doubted the case on kush (even tried a case against DP) but then suddenly switched to kush with no reasoning until later.
His actions mostly have mafia motivations (unless I'm mistaken).
Phew. Will have Alsn's case up most likely tomorrow. These take forever.
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I only talked about the scumminess of omniscient and corrosion in thatv post. I outlined that omniscient has done questionable things, but i need more. I thought i said that corrosion would be the scummiest out of the group, in otherwords, the scum. The list is for reference on exactly where they voted
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@Djo
Read my posts. The second case I had planned was against SDM. However, SDM's posts have been well thought out with good reasoning. It would be useless and stupid to post a case based only on meta from last game.
@Darth
Seeing as the main part of the case against me is my "soft defend of kush" (actually telling you to chill out on it), I would like to explain my reasoning for telling you so d1. I asked for your previous games to examine your meta. A few things stuck out on me.
On September 28 2012 11:41 DarthPunk wrote:My previous games. NMM XXII GodfatherNMM XXIV CopTL Mafia LVII Roleblocker
NMM XXII - Godfather
Here you gave an early FOS against Mordanis as godfather
From that point on, you tunnel him pretty hard (you threw out some other accusations but nothing big)
Here you send a vote for Mordanis, the first vote on him.
I found it similar to the pattern with kush at the time.
NMM LVII - Roleblocker
In this game, you jump on Mattchew early. Pretty much all your posts revolve around him
You weren't anywhere near voting him first, but your early tunnel of him was alarming.
This one wasn't as similar, but still made me a little wary to trust you.
However, 2 things made me think you could also be town. In your two mafia games, you hardly used red text. (I think once per game both games only on one word).
In your game as cop, you used the red text a bit more than you did as mafia. One post had a bit of red around pg 4 of your filter.
Also, your post quality in this game was an improvement over your other games as mafia.
Thus, I was confused for most of day 1 about you. I wasn't willing to condemn kush based on how you attacked him. However, once kush imploded, it became apparent to me that he was, at the very least, a lost cause, at most scum.
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@Djo
If you would actually read through my posts, most of your questions are answered. There are 3 parts that are inherently wrong because you aren't reading my posts. Instead, you feel like accusing me about points that I have already addressed.
Wrong 1) The second case thing
Wrong 2) Why the pm marv post. "1) If you looked at my posts after my “PM marv for help” post, I believe corrosion instantly assumed that I confirmed him town. That is not true at all. Notice A) Djo is a noob and B) I said COACHES. The word townie was never said in the sentence. You guys are putting words in my mouth. Also, note how in one of Djo’s prior posts, he says he was going to go look at guides. I don’t understand why you guys are so eager to jump on someone trying to help a newbie.
Yet again, townie motivation: If Djo is town, it will greatly help us if he gets help. Even if he isn't, it will raise the quality of this NEWBIE game and help us all improve if he gets help."
3) "He doesn't want to give a clear answer on his read about me. What does it mean that I'm sheeping onto cases ? I think it was too dangerous for him to pronounce himself about my alignment due to his previous slip. I asked him why he directed me to marv and answer by a question because he cannot afford to be transparent on this subject."
I gave a clear answer on you
On September 30 2012 00:06 debears wrote:Show nested quote +On September 29 2012 16:26 Djodref wrote:@debearsso let me reformulate my question so we can understand each other better this time What is your read about me so far ? [*]town [*]null [*]scum You can use quantitative adjectives null right now. Just was working on Boson. Will look into you more though [/list][/list]
Sheeping means you jump on cases without making your own reasons. I have been pretty straightforward on answering these questions.
Alright, now for an interesting point that you brought up.
"He denies it right away and gives a town motivation for his post. But then he starts talking about lurkers. I think lurkers and newbies are two different things and he was trying to divert everybody with this line."
Ask Remedy about this.
On September 28 2012 06:40 RemedySC wrote: Hey,
About me This is my second newbie game. In the first game I had a good read on Kush, but I didn't post enough, or have the amount of content needed in a post to get him lynched. This time though, if I have a good read that some one is scum, they are going down.
Lurker Policy Well, like in the previous game, I think that a pure lurker lynch policy will end up hurting town and benefiting mafia as the game progresses. If we have no reasonable scum lead by the end of the day, then I think town hasn't been trying hard enough. So think fucking positive, we will find them!
Last game, he lurked and got the axe for it. He says he had a case but couldn't get the content he needed. Hapa said only thrawn got help from him last game. So, if guys like remedy had gotten help last game, what could the difference have been?
The same applies for this game. Anyone who is a nooby should get help. It increases the quality of the game and allows everyone to have an actual read on you.
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@Djo
On October 01 2012 02:09 Djodref wrote: @debears
Well I would disagree about sheeping. Nobody so far has pointed out the defense you got from kush and the posts where he implies that you are his scumbuddy. So why do you think kush was defending you ?
@everyone
Before going to bed, I would like to state that my guess for the scumteam is now debears/alsn. I think Z-BosoN has the right of it. I'm asking for a vig shot on debears !
Also Remedy is too much of a lurker. I don't think we are going to encounter lylo or mylo situations in this game but I hope that we can get something of him before this...
You have been sheeping. Look at SDM's case on you
On September 30 2012 22:03 Sonic Death Monkey wrote:And to clarify a couple of things about my case on Djo now that I'm up to date on the thread: 1. Latching on to others reads: As newbie scum it's really hard to make original cases. I had first hand experience Cubu and Imcasey in XXVI. The only case Imcasey could make was against our scum buddy Xatalos (that's quite easy because he knew he was scum). We had a similar situation with Debears in XXVII, at least in the beginning where the only case he could make was a defense of Thrawn, which is easy to do because he knew knew he was town (well, he flipped SK, but Debears couldn't know). 2. How can anyone buy into Kush's defense that easily? A newbie town is usually very suspcicious and it was a really silly defense, at the very best null. Using "player" and "people" sounds awkward? How isn't that an obvious lie? + Show Spoiler +On September 28 2012 20:12 kushm4sta wrote: 2. My supposed scumslip: huh? What else should I have called you? Player? Person? Maybe but to me those things sound awkward. Townie just seemed like the most non awkward word to use. Innocent until proven guilty. That's how we do it in America bro.
As for the other lurkers, I don't find Remedy suspicious, rather the opposite although his post count is still low. Nothing really stuck out to me the same way Djo did when reading Omn's and Corrosion's filter.
Also, the reason why no one is addressing kush's "scum for life" and "I saved you" posts to me is because the argument is pure WIFOM.
Kush was scum. For that reason, we have to look at scum motivations 1) He was giving away his partner and throwing the game away. I believe he didn't give up on the game since he was mafia. Otherwise, he would most likely be punished for his actions in the game. Also, he is experienced. He isn't a dumb noob that would give up. He was willing to take the sack as scum last game when people started reading him as scum (although it never came to that). 2) He was attempting to set up someone who had "soft defended" him so that it would lead to a mislynch the next day.This point can be easily turned into WIFOM.
Why would you believe the words of a confirmed scum? The purpose of mafia is to disrupt the the town and turn townies against each other. Number two fulfills that purpose.
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So now it's time for my case on Alsn. Z-Bo has posted a good case. Now, I want to add onto a key element that I feel Z-bo missed: Alsn's scumhunting (or lack thereof).
On September 22 2012 06:53 Alsn wrote:I think it's high time to try and get myself NK'd again. /in
Alsn's first post before the game. Everyone, if you do not know the depth of Alsn's focus and intelligence (or at least what it seems like to me) and stubborness, look at his posts from pregame and the obs qt from last game. If he was town, I would be sure that he would put his skills to work and actually attempt to be nked.
Alright, on to the posts since the start of the game.
+ Show Spoiler +On September 28 2012 17:56 Alsn wrote:Wow, upon reading the thread I realise that kush has been following the exact pattern I just now specified to be the way not to play if he wanted to absolve himself in my eyes. In fact, I could go back to my initial posts to him in NMMXXV saying almost the exact same thing. As such, I think I have no choice but to cast a: FoS kushm4stakush, in order for me to let up, I want you to stop it with your ridiculous knee-jerk play and actually point out why you think other people are scummy as opposed to why you yourself is so obviously town. While the following idiom is quite ironic in a forum game, actions speak louder than words and you defending yourself is just that, meaningless words. Start proving to everyone that you are concerned with finding scum instead of worrying about your silly streak. That being said, I think everyone else is jumping the gun here, kush is an extremely easy target to pick on, especially since he almost never seems to think before he posts. The scumslip that Darth and others pointed out can definitely be seen as damning. However, I am not inclined to agree with the following post from Darth: Show nested quote +On September 28 2012 13:46 DarthPunk wrote:I am not flaming Kush. I am legitimately scum hunting. The contrast in this situation, to the one with shiao, are so stark that there is no point even bringing it up. You will know when I am flaming when you see it, and even then it is not really that big a scum tell. I can tell the difference between Scummy town and actual scum, and it is not 'illogical' to be able to do this. Kush right now is not scummy town. He has slipped HUGELY. He is conforming to his previous scum meta. Seriously...
There is no explanation for his town read on me. The only reason he would say that is if he was scum. This last part seems to overly simplify the matter to me. The only reason? I myself can see a few reasons, but I would like kush to reply himself before I comment further as I don't want to give him an easy out. I can state for the record that unless kush shapes up considerably, I'm all in favour of lynching him. Simply because him playing like his normal self would be a liability for town later on due to his inclination to just defend himself over hunting scum. However, I definitely want to give him the benefit of the doubt and allow him to actually try and show that he has town's best interest in mind. So until then, while I definitely would like everyone to share their reads on kush so far, that is not enough for D1. We need to start exploring different possibilities because if we decide to lynch kush and he flips green, spending all of D1 talking about him will put us back at square one minus two townies. I'll make another post within an hour or two on another topic as I think I've made myself perfectly clear on where I stand on kush, but right now I need breakfast.
His point is fair and I agreed upon it. Everyone focusing on one person day 1 is usually not good. However, his later actions did not really follow this statement.
Show nested quote +On September 28 2012 21:11 Alsn wrote: Bleh, and now I realised that that's a pretty bad summary of what I wanted to say.
Summary of my case: I feel that Z-BosoN is attacking people for the sake of attacking them and in a way that seems to be discouraging healthy discussion. As pointed out by my argument he seems to want debears to just shut up and not share his thoughts.
Him attacking SDM for a post obviously made just as a "Hello, let's have a nice game" type of post before heading off to bed just reinforces this idea to me that he is accusing people for dubious reasons.
His cases against Z-Bo and DP were the only scumhunting during d1. His initial problem with Z-Bo was a point already addressed by me in terms of the post at SDM. This post in itself isn't a big deal. However, he continues to keep the argument the same and becomes stuck on the idea.
+ Show Spoiler +On September 28 2012 21:31 Alsn wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2012 21:14 DarthPunk wrote:On September 28 2012 21:11 Alsn wrote: Bleh, and now I realised that that's a pretty bad summary of what I wanted to say.
Summary of my case: I feel that Z-BosoN is attacking people for the sake of attacking them and in a way that seems to be discouraging healthy discussion. As pointed out by my argument he seems to want debears to just shut up and not share his thoughts.
Him attacking SDM for a post obviously made just as a "Hello, let's have a nice game" type of post before heading off to bed just reinforces this idea to me that he is accusing people for dubious reasons. So. Why have you not FoS'd debears then? Uh, what? For what? I admit I haven't looked all that closely on debears posting since I mostly looked at his filter to try and figure out what Z-BosoN was referring to, but as far as I can see he has done three things so far, he has pointed out that he doesn't agree with your tunneling of kush. I find that a reasonable thing to say, although not overwhelmingly useful other than as a reminder to you that there are other players in this game(which you have obviously noted by now since you are questioning me!) His other two arguments of note are against Z-BosoN which is basically the conversation line which I base my case upon, as well as calling out Djodref as someone who posts a lot but says little. The latter also seems perfectly reasonable from where I'm standing and as you must have noticed, I'm against Z-BosoN on the subject of the former.
This post was addressed to DP. Yet again, you are really just repeating points and just agreeing with my views on the matter and defending me.
+ Show Spoiler +On September 29 2012 00:24 Alsn wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2012 22:39 DarthPunk wrote:On September 28 2012 22:03 Alsn wrote:On September 28 2012 21:38 DarthPunk wrote:On September 28 2012 21:31 Alsn wrote: he has pointed out that he doesn't agree with your tunneling of kush. I find it astonishing that you 'interpret' debears' post that way in context of your view of Z-Boson. The way in which you paraphrase things whilst obscuring the truth/ put your own angle on things has me very concerned. Astonishing how? I would like you to explain what's so amazingly pro-town about tunneling kush from the very beginning. I find the risks of that approach to be very high from a town perspective. There are two scenarios: A) He flips green, and unless he during the day completely changed his character we will have almost no way of distinguishing who among the people who pushed for his lynch were scum and who were town. B) He flips scum, at this point I just don't find that likely enough to risk A) happening. That fact alone is enough for me to see that post of debears as entirely reasonable, since both of you at the time were basically calling out kush for every single post he was making(for good reason, but not if that's the only thing you are doing). I was not just looking at Kush. I was looking at the reactions to my case on kush also, Namely debears. As far as I am concerned Kush is scum and therefore it is best for town to lynch him. I like to focus on one thing at a time. Especially when he is incredibly scummy and has SCUM SLIPPED It is a common scum hunting technique and has been recommended in Several postgames. Obviously It was not to the exclusion of all others because I am now looking at you and debears. If there was nothing to go on I would have changed tac. Turns out he is scum. So I try and get him lynched. Savvy? On September 28 2012 22:03 Alsn wrote: That fact alone is enough for me to see that post of debears as entirely reasonable, since both of you at the time were basically calling out kush for every single post he was making(for good reason, but not if that's the only thing you are doing). So you don't find Kush likely to flip scum? good to know. Z -Boson hardly called out kush. I made a case. I was not tunnelling. (but I see that is the misconception you are trying to present) If by some miracle he flips green there is still a lot of info to go off. Your premise iswrong and thus your conclusions are wrong. I was calling out Kush for good reason? and at the same time Debears was entirely reasonable in shutting that down? ##FoS ALSN Given the evidence so far no, I don't, and frankly I don't see why that's so hard to believe. Given his history, it should be easy to see for anyone that while he has different town and scum metas(as pointed out by Hapahauli in the obs QT of NMMXVII), his comments so far this game is entirely in line with the way he usually posts during D1. Basically just writing up whatever is on his mind. That to me doesn't really increase or decrease the chances of him flipping either way(but the setup of the game says all else being equal, 75% of the players are green, 25% are scum) Yes, you called him out for good reason because his arguments(like so many times before this game) make little to no sense. But right now the only thing I really agree actually points to him being scum is what you call his scum slip. I just do not agree with you of just how damning that statement is. The first thing that sprang to mind when I saw you quoting that was simply that townie was an odd word to use, why not use player? But a confirmed scum slip? Come on, it's not like he said something that is entirely outside the realm of possibility for a town player to say. "Townie" wouldn't be the word I'd use, but I just can't see it as that obvious a scum slip. I'll accept that you are not necessarily wrong for thinking so however. Given that there are no other developments then sure, I'll admit that there's at least a higher chance of kush being scum than a random lurker being scum. But I would really like it if we could at least try to get better odds than that. Best case scenario for me would be actually having everyone talk, present cases and opinions and if no one else presents themselves as scummy, then and only then will I roll the dice on kush. Remember, there are 3 scum, not only one. Who knows, if he's scum as you say, he might look even scummier by lynch time.The case being what it is with kush, I can see now that what you were doing wasn't tunneling per se. However, I think you are doing the very thing you are accusing me of doing where you say debears was trying to "shut down" the case against kush. Like I've said several times now, that's not at all how I interpreted it, only that we shouldn't limit ourselves to a single discussion topic which at the time I felt debears was trying to suggest. Something that I happen to agree with. Show nested quote +On September 28 2012 22:39 DarthPunk wrote:I made a case. I was not tunnelling. (but I see that is the misconception you are trying to present) If by some miracle he flips green there is still a lot of info to go off. Your premise iswrong and thus your conclusions are wrong. This statement makes little sense to me. You say you were not tunneling, which I can now appreciate as probably true, but up until recently was not clear at all to me(and probably not to anyone else either). You had made quite a lot of posts in a row with kush as the only topic, as well as trying to convince others in the thread that he absolutely, 100%, no doubt whatsoever must be scum. I didn't find it unreasonable that someone would point that fact out to you. My "premise" was simply that if I find an argument reasonable, someone else trying to poke holes in that argument might not have the same motivations as myself, thus they are suspicious. The bolded line is ridiculous however, especially in context with the sentence before it. What makes you so sure that we would have "a lot of info to go off" in the case of everyone tunneling kush and us lynching him? My A) vs. B) scenario that you are referring to was dependent on the hypothetical scenario of everyone tunneling kush(which I already explained seemed to be where things were going at the time). I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and say that you misunderstood what I was trying to say instead of deliberately using a red herring to try and discredit me. With that in mind, based on your willingness to put yourself out there, I have a slight town read on you.
Looking at this post, let's keep in mind what Alsn has done at this point. He has defended me. He has defended Kush, playing off scumslip. His only scumhunt cases are against darth and z-bo. His case against darth is based off darth's hard tunneling of kush. His case on z-bo is Z-bo's post on SDM and Z-Bo's post on me.
Also, look at how he brings up "Everyone bring up a case and we'll look for other scummy people". Yet, he has failed to actually do the same. He now thinks Darth is town by suddenly changing his mind on the tunneling issue, even though he believes tunneling isn't good.
" I would like you to explain what's so amazingly pro-town about tunneling kush from the very beginning. I find the risks of that approach to be very high from a town perspective."
Now, I would like to move on to another topic with Alsn. He promises scumhunting and big posts. He wants everyone to make good cases about people other than kush. Yet, he doesn't actually follow through.
+ Show Spoiler +On September 29 2012 17:40 Alsn wrote:Just now caught up and saw this post. Really? I Said I'd be back about 12 hours before lynch, I've been reading the thread for an hour which makes that statement pretty much exactly right. But your own comment on the other hand is from before I even said I'd be waking up and checking the thread. You are not making yourself look any better than when I first called you out for grasping at straws. Will be posting some pretty substantial posts(I suspect, based on what I've read so far) within the next couple of hours.
Here, he promises substantial posts. These are the next three posts.
+ Show Spoiler +On September 29 2012 18:17 Alsn wrote: First, I'd like to start things with stating so far D1 has pretty much lived up to my exact nightmare scenario that I speculated about when arguing with DP yesterday. Everyone is voting kush with only very little discussion about any other topic(mainly, the debears-boson exchange).
Looking at the vote count, the last official count says 7, and now corrosion added his vote for a total of 8. With myself that would be 9, the exact number of town in this game. From my point of view, unless kushm4sta, Djodref and Lesrah are the 3 scum, there are scum pushing this lynch.
Given that, I'm really starting to dislike this lynch. I agree however that kush has been mostly concerned with defending himself against perceived injustice rather than actually trying to hunt scum, this still does not convince me that he is scum. Lynching scum with an overwhelming majority D1 just seems like way too improbably. Sure, if we had to fight tooth and nail to get 7 votes, I might buy it, but that's not the case. It seems to me there must be scum sheeping onto this lynch.
Like I've stated before I can go along with the kush lynch, but I'd rather try and lynch my top scum read at this point and with the current developments, I see a kush lynch more as a last resort than my main scum read. Unfortunately, this argument is only available to people who have yet to vote and are town, as well as to scum since other than myself only scum are aware of my alignment. For everyone else, the "unless a, b and c are scum" argument will include me.
My argument is at least enough to convince myself, so I'll be scouring the thread for the next couple of hours to see if my "gut scum reads" so far have any merit and if so push that/those case(s) instead. If it turns out that they are going nowhere, I will vote kush. But I still feel we have enough time to at least have a discussion on the topic of "just wtf is going on here?!".
This post is odd. His main points are 1)There are scum voting for kush (duh) 2) He doesn't like the kush lynch and 3) He is going to try to lynch his top scum read and "scour the thread" for others.
There is nothing of substance in this post. He's just stating the obvious and promising more scumhunting.
+ Show Spoiler +On September 29 2012 18:28 Alsn wrote: A quick addendum, I'm aware that scum pushing the lynch does not exonerate kush since they could be bussing him. However, given the assumption that kush is scum and there are active scum among the voters, I just find it more likely that they would try and find another solution than bussing, especially since it's D1. That's my main reason for not being convinced that kush is scum.
The next post is nothing better. Nothing substantial. Just speculation on what the scum would do.
+ Show Spoiler +On September 29 2012 18:29 Alsn wrote:Show nested quote +On September 29 2012 18:21 Djodref wrote: @Alsn
I also voted for Kush for your information Right, I missed that, thanks for pointing it out. That just confirms it though, from my point of view there are scum pushing for his lynch. For everyone else out there, unless me, Lesrah and kush are the scumteam, there are scum among the voters.
Yet again, he's repeating his points. Nothing substantial. His promise of something was not kept. Still no actual scumhunting.
On September 29 2012 20:02 Alsn wrote:EBWOP again: Just realized it, WIFOM what? How the hell is my analysis of the vote numbers WIFOM. It's logical that from the point of view of a townie that has voted, the only way kush is scum, is if me and Lesrah are scum too. It's simple math. Given that I have more information than all the townies that have voted so far(I know my own alignment), I can of course conclude that there must be scum that voted for kush, regardless if kush is scum or not. So could Lesrah if he turns out to be town(but as things are looking now, he will probably be replaced/modkilled so he wouldn't participate in this lynch regardless). Do you even know what WIFOM is? I did not arbitrarily keep arguing back and forth, I made a logical conclusion from the information available.
Ok. This post just repeats his earlier points.
Now comes his change of opinion
+ Show Spoiler +On September 29 2012 21:15 Alsn wrote: I've been doing some soul searching and I'm starting to agree that it's not worth it to try and push any other cases right now.
Mostly because my entire premise was that I was thinking it to be unlikely for kush to be scum. I realise that after trying to put into words why I think that is so, I have nothing other than the fact that I "feel" him to be town, which is a really stupid reason for absolving him. I thought I could back it up by saying he's been pressured to hard, there's no way he's responsible for not scum hunting. But in the end, I can't find a logical reason to forgive him if I exclude my own gut feeling from the equation.
I think now that my best option is to hold on to whatever small reads I have(because while I have some suspicions, I don't think they are rock solid) until after the lynch is over. Because at least then, we will have more information.
So for now, although my gut is screaming at me, I'll commit to voting for kush, mostly because most of what I said about BosoN has returned somewhat satisfactory answers, I really don't like the way a lot of people got away with not basically posting anything at all(I'm looking at you, Djodref, corrosion, Omniscient, RemedySC). I think that's probably what irks me the most, the thing I was most hoping would not happen, did happen.
##Vote: kushm4sta
Ok a "change of heart" changes his views on kush and scumhunting. I can understand changing his view on kush. However, he had been adamant that people push cases on people other than kush all day. Yet, it wasn't worth it anymore. Then, he says in the same post he doesn't like how those 4 got away with not posting? Why didn't he call them out if he wanted to scumhunt so bad? Why is he leaving the job up to others and just calling out people he wants to be looked at?
+ Show Spoiler +On September 29 2012 21:28 Alsn wrote: By the way, just to clarify about my vote.
I realised that my entire vote count argument falls apart if there's no compelling reason to believe kush to be town, and asking myself the following question kinda shocked me: "What has kush done for town?"
I couldn't find an answer to that question, no matter how hard I looked. As such, I can't not vote for him.
The wording in the last statement is weird. It implies that he was looking for reasons to not vote kush.
+ Show Spoiler +On September 29 2012 21:31 Alsn wrote: Seriously, I need a break from this as I'm feeling indecisive as shit at the moment while I woke up brimming with confidence that I would find some scum today. I'll be checking in on the thread all the way until lynch, so I'll reply if you need me to, but I don't think I'll be making any monster posts. Here he admits he did not scumhunt. He says he is indecisive.
+ Show Spoiler +On September 30 2012 04:39 Alsn wrote:Show nested quote +On September 30 2012 03:00 Z-BosoN wrote: I urge everyone to read this exchange. My lines are in red. He still feels the need to use the same elements he did initially: My case is OMGUS, it's weak, it's bad, etc. This post comes off to me as cornered scum trying to squirm his way out, but that could be just me tunneling him hard. Everyone please take the time to read and see if you agree with me.
I actually find some of your arguments very compelling. I agree that his 180 on Djodref looks scummy, but I don't agree with your original argument that him making that case on both you and Djodref is inherently scummy just because the cases are similar. I however think that your pressuring has yielded fruit. I happen to agree that your initial feud with debears was on pretty shaky grounds, which is why I spoke out against you at that point. It may just have been me misinterpreting your tone/intentions, but nevertheless I feel most of the early-game arguments debears put forward were relatively sound, and you weren't necessarily in the right for attacking them. His responses do seem convoluted though. To be fair, I think his "scum slip"(the one where he all but proclaimed Djod town) is pretty much the exact same type of slip that kush committed. Basically, directly suggesting that he should pm marv could be seen as him knowing djod's alignment. But I think just as with the kush slip, it's definitely not 100%. It could be a typo, he could have just been lazy and not wanted to say marv/hapa, there could be many different reasons. Anything he says himself probably won't sway anyone though. I'm actually surprised there hasn't been more of an outcry about it. So to sum up, I disagree that debears is clearly wrong for saying that your initial case was weak, however, I feel like he has some pretty scummy explanations for some of his actions, particularly wrt Djodref. I think your case has gone from pretty nit picky to a rather strong case. So I think I'll withdraw my FoS on you, your explanation for your behaviour concerning SDM earlier was satisfactory, and I will probably have to go through your case against him at least one more time before I can be sure, but it seems to be pretty solid to me. I would like to see some input from the less active players with regards to the entire debears/boson debate. Because currently I'm having pretty much null reads on all of the following: Omniscient, RemedySC, Corrosion, Djodref(someone else remind me if there's anyone I've missed please). A few of them have posted slightly scummy or slightly town, but either way it's very difficult for me to make up my mind one way or the other right now. If we assume that kush wasn't trolling us with the "I'm red" part, then we have quite some time before we ever need to worry about mylo/lylo, but I'd still like for us to get there without either being forced to lynch 4 null-reading lurkers, or to have them left in the game at that stage.
Here is another worthless post. His whole point is "Z-bo's case may have validity". Then he gives us some reads, except they are 4 null reads. No scum hunting. Not any actual contribution.
+ Show Spoiler +On September 30 2012 19:18 Alsn wrote:Show nested quote +On September 30 2012 18:50 DarthPunk wrote:On September 30 2012 18:10 Alsn wrote: Hi, just woke up, skimmed through the last couple of pages.
Not sure if you even want to know, but at the time of, as you say, act III - IV, I had a gut feeling that things were going way too easy for kush to be scum, and that made me doubt the motivations of DarthPunk, as well as the fact that I had found you pretty scummy from the day before. When I was going to make a case against either of you however, I only found the few questions I asked DP about, but which I then later found out was just him being rightfully(I thought he was out to get me for no apparent reason) suspicious of me.
Then as I went through your filter, you started to make more and more sense, just like I and everyone else has pointed out, your case against debears now has merit, which pretty much meant that I just didn't find you as scummy as I thought you would be. So yea, the two scum reads that I didn't actually have, weren't actually scummy. Trying to make a case against someone for no reason seemed like inherently anti-town, so I just gave up when I thought about just why I thought kush was town, what had he done that helped town? While I imagine being a victim like that would be pretty harsh, nothing he had done had tried to show that he really was a victim, so I went along with the lynch. I had to vote for someone.
That being said, this discussion helps no one, If you think I'm scummy, go ahead and think so, I won't be lynched for another 2,5 days either way so I'll have tons of time to make myself useful. Like I said to kush, actions speak louder than words, I don't expect anyone to judge me in any other way. I thought you had a town read on me? But after that I am one of your scum reads and you try to build a case on me? That sort of doesn't match up with the afore mentioned town read. Now you're just misunderstanding me, I had a gut scum read on you due to me feeling unjustifiably attacked. I didn't want to say that out loud while I was questioning you at the time. But like I explained when I examined your filter as well as when you replied to me, things became much clearer and thus I re-evaluated you.
Ah finally, he actually states a scum read. However, earlier he said he wanted to push a lynch for a top scum read. He didn't do that. A FOS isn't pushing a lynch. He never took a decisive "you're scum" stance day 1.
Alsn's whole day 1 was centered on kush being town, and mediating the conflict between me and Z-Bo. Where was the scumhunting? Where was the real contribution that he promised?
-----after just reading Alsn's big post---------- @Alsn
However, 1) My posting to defend myself day 1 was because I thought (and still do) that most of Z-Boson's case is dumb and confirmation bias (which you agree with me about according to your post. 2) I chose Z-Boson because they way he FOS'd me back was OMGUS to me. Djo is a noob. Z-Boson isn't. Z-Boson would know better to first, calll out a player for no reason early on and overstate that player's views. And two, FOS me with shitty reasoning. 3) My main problem with Z-Boson is that he was looking only at mafia motivations in his post (confirmation bias if he is town, if he is scum, trying to frame someone). Also, his association case about modwarnings was flat out unreasonable and follows WIFOM. Also, he was trying way too hard to lobby his case against me.
It seems the only real part of his argument that everyone agrees with is the pm marv post I addressed to Djo, which I have done my best to explain. I don't see his case as strong. Yet, he feels its the mother of all cases, calling it a "shitbomb" on me earlier. How can a townie be so sure of himself besides confirmation bias?
That said, Z-Boson has made a case against you which I agree with. He came off more reasonable today with the questions he asked me. For that, I do not have such a strong stance on him at this moment.
However, you seem a little bit too obsessed with our argument. Your post is in essence a giant summary of what happened. You state a scumread on me, which is improvement. However, I don't feel your scumhunting is original.
Your reasoning for FOS on me is problematic.
I believe I have already been called out for posting defensively. Also if "This all leads me to believe Z-BosoN is suffering from massive confirmation bias", as I stated, why wouldn't I defend myself extensively? I have been called out by Z-Bo for inconsistency. Read above this for some reasoning on choosing one over the other. And finally, you don't see my cases pointing out Z-Boson as scummy, yet you agree my cases say reasonable things? "Here he addresses debears final post, a post which like I just pointed out says reasonable things." Just because you think someone's case about someone else being scum isn't correct, if the case is reasonable, that shouldn't make you think that the accuser is scum
That reasoning doesn't make sense, based on your own conclusions.
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Sorry thrawn....forgot it was deadline
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@Corrosion
On October 01 2012 04:59 corrosion wrote: I had a look at the cases Z-boson and Debears made against me. I thought both looked messy. I still do. Now Boson didn't jump on my post immediately, and others (Darth?)say his posting fits his town meta, so I'm going to assume that his motivation was scum hunting for now. Debears case is a huge wall of text without much actual content. I think it's suspicious. Is he trying to clutter up the thread and make chaos? I can see mafia motivation behind this.
Do you mind actually reading and refuting before you accuse my cases of no content?
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@Corrosion
On October 01 2012 05:37 corrosion wrote:Show nested quote +On October 01 2012 05:13 debears wrote:@Corrosion On October 01 2012 04:59 corrosion wrote: I had a look at the cases Z-boson and Debears made against me. I thought both looked messy. I still do. Now Boson didn't jump on my post immediately, and others (Darth?)say his posting fits his town meta, so I'm going to assume that his motivation was scum hunting for now. Debears case is a huge wall of text without much actual content. I think it's suspicious. Is he trying to clutter up the thread and make chaos? I can see mafia motivation behind this. Do you mind actually reading and refuting before you accuse my cases of no content? It was a little hasty, because I wanted to post before the night ended. I'll elaborate: There's some content in your post, but you've been making huge cases against several people without following up on them. As far as I can see, all you have achieved is to clutter up the thread. The other person that I've seen that clutters up the thread is Alsn. I've not read his last post yet, because it's tiring to read his posts. I've not read your case on him either. Right now I don't see any town motivation for your behavior.##FoS Debears
So you're saying your going to jump to conclusions before reading?
Also, how is there not town motivation in making thorough cases on scum reads, especially in single posts? If you don't care to read what other people have to say, then you have a choice to not read it. It's all in one post. You can easily tell when it begins and ends and find the next post. However, if you were town, you would most likely want to read thorough cases, since they take a lot of work on the postee's side and indicate that they actually care about the game.
I most definitely followed up on Boson, since our arguments have stopped on the basis of repetitiveness. You haven't refuted my case against you. Instead, you FOS me. How can I follow it up when you don't make a defense of yourself? And Alsn hasn't looked over my case either yet or posted since then. How can I follow that case up?
Nice FOS. Nice reasoning behind it.
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@ DP and Z-Bo
What are your thoughts on my doubts about DP day 1 in terms of his meta?
Was wondering if you saw that post or not.
I feel like that is the most important point to address against me atm
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I'll be on for the next 40 minutes or so as an fyi
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First, you are wrong about the soft defend coming before reading.
Here is my FOS on kush + Show Spoiler +On September 28 2012 11:05 debears wrote:Lol. Kush already going at it. Hey guys. I'm debears. This is my second game ever of mafia. I have a couple of things to add: + Show Spoiler +Show nested quote +On September 28 2012 09:18 DarthPunk wrote:On September 28 2012 09:10 Z-BosoN wrote:On September 28 2012 08:43 DarthPunk wrote: It is not impossible to find scum on the first day. Policy lynches get you no info, you are most likely going to hit a townie, and you end up in the same position the next day minus 2 town. @Djodref your 'day plan' is unnecessary. Scum hunt, vote for your top scum read and everything else will fall into place. After LVII I'm rather liking the idea of policy lynches, in extreme cases. Killing lurkers in a lurker-infested town, for example, is something I'm inclined to agree on. If the town proves itself active, then whoever proves himself scummier will occupy the noose. Given that this is a newbie game, scums are generally more scared to post. While that is a general tendency, I don't agree with mass posters being cleared right off the bat, even if their posts seem meaningful. What I suggest in this game, is that people read. From my few games, much time is usually wasted discussing things that have not been read properly. On September 28 2012 06:56 Sonic Death Monkey wrote: Cool, we're on. Pretty bad timing though, I'm off to bed and then I've got a day at uni before I can really start posting. I hope to God when I get back we've moved past the lurker policy discussion. My message to newbies: the best way for you to clear yourself is to post a lot. Don't post just for the sake of posting though, that'll make you look like scum because posting for the sake of posting is what scum do. This is a rather useless post. Newbie towns want to scumhunt. Newbie scum want to look like they are scumhunting. That =/= posting a lot but not for the sake of posting, or whatever you meant. And please tell me, what do you mean? You say you hope to have moved past the lurker discussion, and yet you are telling people to post a lot? In my eyes you are telling people not to lurk because that will make them seem scummy. It seems to me that you are indirectly stating your views on lurkers despite openly saying you don't want to talk about them. Meh. Don't like lurker policy lynches at all. It just tells scum: Post. and your safe. I have read every post so far as scummy and I don't see SDM's post as more or less scummy than the others. But posting a lot will let people get a good read on you so you should 100% be doing this as town. And then if all the townies are posting you force scum to. Which makes it much easier to nab them also. SO. Post a lot if you are town. You make scum uncomfortable and facilitate town reads on yourself and scum reads on scum. You also clutter the thread if you just post alot. Let me specify. Post quality as often as you can. That means reread the thread and build good cases. One liners don't do much good. Cases with multiple quotes and a few sentences of explanation per quote are good (most of the time). Also, USE YOUR COACHES TOWN. Thrawn pmed Hapa over 50 times last game and he had the best town performance. That isn't a coincidence. @Kush I don't like the way you are starting off this game kush. It's eerily similar as last game when you were mafia. You mention you're deathless streak, nk, and your scummy meta without anyone bringing it up. You should know that I most likely know you're trends better than anyone else in this game. The only difference between this game and last is that you have engaged in a flame war with Darth this game, which is unhelpful to our town. FOS Kush@everyone One more thing: Feel free to accuse and build cases on anyone you want for the first 24 hours. However, let's start tunneling for the second 24 hours. Also, I would like everyone to start considering a lurker (in your head) once we hit the second 24 hours as a backup. If we get close to the lynch deadline, and there are no scummy candidates, feel free to post a good case on which lurker would be the best candidate.
Here is my very next post, which asks for your other games.
On September 28 2012 11:34 debears wrote: @Darthpunk
Do you have links to all your previous games?
I see validity in your points. However, I need to see how you've played before. You are coming off really strong really early.
and @Kush
Tunneling does not mean only looking at the people under pressure. It means that we should only post cases with substance at that point. Someone going off tangent on some stupid duck hunt with no reason and distracting the attention of the town is bad at that point. If you do feel suspicious of someone but don't have a good case, just keep it on word and save it for when evidence does come out.
Notice my wording. You came on too strong for me to not be suspicious of you. Your meta as scum follows a tunnel pattern. Also, since kush was following his scum meta, I also thought that if you were mafia, you could have just found an easy target for a mislynch. Also, you didn't tunnel anywhere near as hard as cop early game.
Once I saw that it was clear that kush was either giving up (highly doubted it) or mafia, I then found it enough to overcome my doubts about you.
Now that Kush has flipped scum, I can now say that the doubts I had about your meta are cleared.
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I made extensive cases against corrosion and alsn.
Z-Bo's most recent case against alsn was stuff I already pointed out. Look at my filter
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Oh and btw take a look at corrosion's response to my post. He failed to defend himself and instead chose to OMGUS FOS me.
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SDM - his posts have been solid so far. The one thing I didn't like about him day 1 is that he wasn't as active as he was last game. He has shown quality so I believe it is more of his schedule. Slight town read.
Stutters - he was decisive in his vote of kush and was the first one after you to vote for him. However, he hasn't made any contributions to day 2. I would hope he makes a case soon. Slight town read.
Remedy - His posting is much improved from last game. However, there hasn't been much there. He did point out some stuff about corrosion but hasn't followed it up. He's now locking on to omniscient. He's a null read still. Need to see more
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Z-Bo - his improved mannerism towards me has lightened my stance against him. Also, he had similar thinking in lines of Alsn. Null read at the least. Slight town at the most.
Omniscient - His medic point is most likely true. I would like to see more scumhunting from him. He came across scummy early though. Null leaning slightly scummy.
Djo - Hard to read. He goes back and forth. I don't like how he is latching to kush's posts about saving me and the scum team for life. He would be assuming that kush was throwing the game or he is entering a WIFOM disaster. Null but he's not helping himself
Lesrah - lol
Any1 i miss?
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@Alsn
+ Show Spoiler +On October 01 2012 21:46 Alsn wrote:Ok, reading debears case against me from yesterday I'm pretty sure I can go along with a lynch on him. I'd like to preface it by saying I've examined most players now, and so far I have yet to find a bigger scum read than what I'm now convinced I have on debears. First of all the following statement: Show nested quote +
Alsn's first post before the game. Everyone, if you do not know the depth of Alsn's focus and intelligence (or at least what it seems like to me) and stubborness, look at his posts from pregame and the obs qt from last game. If he was town, I would be sure that he would put his skills to work and actually attempt to be nked.
Yes, please do. Especially the QT. Just ask SDM how brilliant I was in that /obs, we were all over the place in that QT. We kept making wild accusations left, right and center and they were mostly wrong. Not until day three or something did we have the slightest clue who to suspect, and then partly due to the fact that keirathi had quoted marv and spoiled it for us. This just makes me feel like he wants to suck up to me in order to make me drop my suspicions. I also think however that debears was quite successful as scum last game. I particularly went to consider his case against thrawn, which is very similar to the way he has been constructing cases in this game. Massive posts pointing out inconsistencies and errors, but not much in the way of explaining what's so scum motivated by that. Show nested quote +On October 01 2012 05:37 corrosion wrote: There's some content in your post, but you've been making huge cases against several people without following up on them. As far as I can see, all you have achieved is to clutter up the thread. The other person that I've seen that clutters up the thread is Alsn. I've not read his last post yet, because it's tiring to read his posts. I've not read your case on him either. Right now I don't see any town motivation for your behavior.
This post by corrosion actually seems quite apt and I realize that I've probably been overestimating how useful it is to try and explain myself down to the very least detail. It strikes me that while corrosion said it in a pretty blunt way that suggests he doesn't want to read what people say, my posts could definitely have been shorting and more to the point.' ConclusionThere are other things I could point to in debears case, In general I get the feeling that he is doing the exact same thing to me that he did against Z-BosoN, making massive cases where if people read the entire thing, they're bound to find something they agree with. This feels like his meta from the final parts of NMMXVII, so I'm now convinced that debears is scum. ##Vote: debears
Alsn, you misunderstood what I was stating in my case against you. You have yet to make any real contribution to the thread. In the qt, you were making a scum team list constantly. You have yet to do that. The most extent you've gone so far is "debears looks scummy" up until the time you vote for me.
Your vote is based on the fact that I make long posts (which if you look at last game you could say meta, however, you have no town meta to judge). It could just be that it's my style. I want to give an indepth look at the two that look most scummy to me.
Also, I believe you and Corrosion are overlooking the fact that Z-Bo asked me for my thoughts on the four lurkers mentioned in Alsn's post. I looked over them and corrosion came off scummy. His responses aren't helping. That's why I made the case against him.
I was pretty sure I put in how your lack of scumhunting and constant talking about the exchange of Z-bo and me is mafia motivated. The mafia motivation is to look like your scumhunting without doing so. The town motivation for not scumhunting is nonexistent. And saying you have a "gut scum read" on someone then dropping it when your weak accusations fail is not scumhunting. Do you have any actual scum reads that you'd like to share besides me?
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@omniscient
What would you rather me do?
1) post nothing 2) post worthless shit spread out 3) post cases all in one post
The reason i like to make thorough cases in one post is that they are easy to find. Also, it minimizes clutter by keeping it in one section. If i spread out my cases, they become hard to follow. Reexamine your reasoning about long posts. Trying reading a guide and seeing what they say about long posts on a specific person
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On October 02 2012 08:01 Omniscient4983 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 02 2012 07:32 debears wrote: @omniscient
What would you rather me do?
1) post nothing 2) post worthless shit spread out 3) post cases all in one post
4) Be decisive. The thread doesn't need to know every thought you have. You're talking about this person, then that person, then that guy over there. It's not that these cases aren't truthful/don't hold merit. I just find all of it to be a bit excessive. I apologize if it's inherently wrong to view it in such a manner.
That's bs. I am being decisive. My cases on d1 brought Z-bo and Djo into the light. Since then I focused on Z-Bo. Now, d2, my cases are 1) a response to Z-Bo's question addressed directly at me (the case briefly talking about Djo and Remedy, then getting a little in depth about you and extensively with corrosion) and 2) A case on Alsn, who is my top scumread
Right now, I am also waiting for a response from the mods about corrosion. He is my second scum read.
If the cases are true/hold merit, what is wrong with them? Instead of going off on someone who is trying to help, you should focus your attention on people who aren't.
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@Stutters
I agree with your Alsn post. However, the arguments you made are repetitive of the cases made by SDM, Z-Bo, and me. Reread his last post about me and Z-Bo, and you'll find it contributes little more than his d1 posts.
Also, something I don't like about one of Alsn's latest post
On October 02 2012 00:21 Alsn wrote:Show nested quote +On October 01 2012 23:48 debears wrote: Alsn, you misunderstood what I was stating in my case against you. You have yet to make any real contribution to the thread. In the qt, you were making a scum team list constantly. You have yet to do that. The most extent you've gone so far is "debears looks scummy" up until the time you vote for me. That was an obs QT. I was commenting as an observer, not as a player. If you really wanted to know how I play you should check my last actual game. I never committed to anyone as scum in that game either, for the same reasons as now. I am not confident at all that I have found any scum yet. The only one's that are giving me scum vibes are you and some of the lurky posters, but having gone through their filters I keep coming up with any compelling reasons that I can't hand wave away in my head as "this guy is probably new". Right now I can only go on the fact that I find you scummier than anyone else, but I'm actually quite scared of the possibility that some of the people I think are town might really just be clever scum. I'm not all that convinced about you to be honest but if I had to wager I'd give you flipping scum something like a 40% chance. I need more information and for now I'd be content with confirming your alignment.
If you were town, you wouldn't be content with just "confirming someone's alignment". That's not scumhunting. That's an excuse and a poor excuse at that. And you bring up reasoning that you fear some who you think are town are scum. If you feel that they are scum, where are your cases against them?
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Ok guys. More analysis on Alsn!
Alsn has been flip flopping on who to target This post came right after his big post on me and Alsn, the post in which he found that I might be scummy.
+ Show Spoiler +On October 01 2012 03:55 Alsn wrote: And that took me just about 6 hours. In the end the only thing I managed to conclude was that I think we need more information. Hopefully I can find something more conclusive during the next couple of days, assuming I don't get NKd but I find that hard to believe right now.
I'll just end with the fact that I think we definitely need to focus on the people who have posted very little because I suspect there are scum to be found there. I'm just a little shocked by how little scumminess I'm reading so far but that probably just means that the people I've been focusing on aren't scum, but we'll see. I'll be checking in for another couple of hours on and off but nothing major before I sleep.
Here he wants to focus on the lurkers, stating the he doesn't think the people he is focusing on is scummy after he makes a big post on me and Z-Bo. Weird, he doesn't make any cases on lurkers. Instead, he suddenly decides to vote for me after reading my case against him.
+ Show Spoiler +On October 01 2012 21:46 Alsn wrote:Ok, reading debears case against me from yesterday I'm pretty sure I can go along with a lynch on him. I'd like to preface it by saying I've examined most players now, and so far I have yet to find a bigger scum read than what I'm now convinced I have on debears.First of all the following statement: Show nested quote +
Alsn's first post before the game. Everyone, if you do not know the depth of Alsn's focus and intelligence (or at least what it seems like to me) and stubborness, look at his posts from pregame and the obs qt from last game. If he was town, I would be sure that he would put his skills to work and actually attempt to be nked.
Yes, please do. Especially the QT. Just ask SDM how brilliant I was in that /obs, we were all over the place in that QT. We kept making wild accusations left, right and center and they were mostly wrong. Not until day three or something did we have the slightest clue who to suspect, and then partly due to the fact that keirathi had quoted marv and spoiled it for us. This just makes me feel like he wants to suck up to me in order to make me drop my suspicions. I also think however that debears was quite successful as scum last game. I particularly went to consider his case against thrawn, which is very similar to the way he has been constructing cases in this game. Massive posts pointing out inconsistencies and errors, but not much in the way of explaining what's so scum motivated by that. On October 01 2012 05:37 corrosion wrote: There's some content in your post, but you've been making huge cases against several people without following up on them. As far as I can see, all you have achieved is to clutter up the thread. The other person that I've seen that clutters up the thread is Alsn. I've not read his last post yet, because it's tiring to read his posts. I've not read your case on him either. Right now I don't see any town motivation for your behavior.
This post by corrosion actually seems quite apt and I realize that I've probably been overestimating how useful it is to try and explain myself down to the very least detail. It strikes me that while corrosion said it in a pretty blunt way that suggests he doesn't want to read what people say, my posts could definitely have been shorting and more to the point.' ConclusionThere are other things I could point to in debears case, In general I get the feeling that he is doing the exact same thing to me that he did against Z-BosoN, making massive cases where if people read the entire thing, they're bound to find something they agree with. This feels like his meta from the final parts of NMMXVII, so I'm now convinced that debears is scum. ##Vote: debears
Rereading his vote post on me, I realize that this seems way to OMGUS. He NEVER addresses the main point of my post against him, the fact that he has done zero scumhunting.
He only brought up one point of the whole post, the qt thread. The fact is, in the qt thread he made thorough cases, which he has failed to do here.
Next, he tries to automatically discredit my case with almost no refutation by saying it is similar to thrawn's case. It isn't. Thrawn's case was based on him switching back and forth on his votes after making big cases on others and also the whole mason killer thing (lol). Anyways, my case on Alsn is distinct in the fact that it points out that he hasn't scumhunted while posting quite a bit of indecisive crap, which has huge mafia motivations.
Thus, it must mean he is voting for me based on the style of my long posts. I think he mentioned his views on accusing people based on style earlier:
So to sum up, kush, I can definitely forgive you for your "style" of posting but I will not under any circumstance forgive you for posting shitty content, just like I will not forgive anyone else for doing so either. Understand that I'm not singling you out as a target, I'm using your history as an example for what I consider scummy play.
Contradiction, unless he believes my post was shitty content. In that case, why didn't he easily refute the main point of the case? He's avoiding making any kind of defense for himself and shifting the focus elsewhere.
Also, notice how he suddenly directs his refutations to a post from corrosion saying that corrosion didn't feel like reading anymore. Why is that post relevant to refutation of my post and the vote on me? It's way out of place in this post.
Then, he comes back and says my meta (large posting and the case on thrawn) is the reason for his vote for me. Really? Does he realize meta is more than just how big my posts are? Last I checked it has to do with emotion, defensiveness, voting patterns, etc. How did this suddenly justify a vote for me in his eyes? He didn't think I was scum as he stated earlier when he talked about the people he has focused on as stated above.
Finally, a post I addressed earlier, but is relevant to how he has bounced around. He now thinks that some of his town reads might be scum. What's with the back and forth?
##Vote: Alsn
The case against Alsn has multiple parts covered by Z-Bo, SDM, and me. Those cases, and the fact that I haven't seen you put up a good answer to why you aren't scumhunting and the fact that you still aren't scumhunting while being indecisive is a huge indicator of scum.
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@Darth
Bring it on
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@Darth Your case is repetitive of what has already been said multiple times.
You read too much into "golden scumslips". They are rare (or so I'm told).
Anyways, as I explained earlier. Your meta as scum threw me off such strong commitment from you about kush. Whether you believe that or not is your deal. I would advise everyone to look at my post about Darth's meta. If you look at my d1 posts about kush from that perspective it makes sense why.
1) I never discredited Darth. I told him only to calm down 2) I never actually defended kush. Never did the words come out of my mouth that anything kush said was not scummy or less scummy than anyone thought.
Think about the above hard Darth.
My "slip" is another point I have already addressed. If you want to not believe anything I say, go ahead.
Next, you cite the exchange between me and kush which you found "strange". You are overlooking the fact that I had immense respect for kush after last game (as well as jacob) because I had a lot of fun with him and he was a good teammate.
Next, the sudden change was due to pretty much an epiphony. I was having trouble deciding whether or not kush was genuinely giving up because the evidence was against him. It threw me way off his last game as scum. He did not, at all, even when considered suspicious by thrawn, act in that manner. I finally realized he must have been mafia trying to pity his way out since he his desire to win is strong.
About the aware of the situation post, it was simply a bit giving respect to kush.
And then the final part you address. You are misreading. I had 2 scumreads at that point (1-Z-Bo, 2 - SDM). I had to wait on announcing SDM (which I did after the lynch) as my second because his activity level was way different d1 of this game compared to last game although his posts had been good. His activity level has increased so I don't have concerns right now about him.
And about reluctant to be scum by association. That is a stupid argument. My problem was with Z-Bo's retarded assocation by modwarning case which others had seen as rational.
I do have a really good question for you though:
Why do you want to vote me over Alsn?
Differences between us: 1) Contribution - I have provided multiple extensive cases while Alsn has had nilch. In other words, I have actually scumhunted. Alsn said all day 1 how people should make cases and bring others to light. Instead, he focuses on the exchange between me and Z-Bo, and comes to no conclusions. 2) Defense of kush - He actually defended kush, calling kush's sips "not damning". Instead of infering what people mean you should look at what they actually say. 3) Answering Questions - I have addressed all these questions up front. Alsn has managed to dodge many questions and accusations, especially the ones about his lack of scumhunting 4) Length of "Scum actions" - a great majority of your case is based only on day 1, with no mention of anything I have done day 2. Alsn has continued to do nothing.
How long ago did you make up your mind that I was confirmed scum? Have you actually read through all my posts from n1, d2 and reevaluate your position?
Do you feel my posting has more scum motivation than Alsn's? That is probably the most important question.
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ebwop - if you want me to bring up the posts on my defense against your meta/"soft defend of kush" and the "scumslip" then I will
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Darth I'll be on for about 20 more min.
@everyone Not sure what my practice schedule is for tomorrow. Usually my practices start at @2:30, which is right before lynch time my time. I'll be at lynch if it is possible.
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Then why, if you had such enormous respect for him, would you call him a 'little bitch' in your very next post? Because you were flip-flopping and you decided to bus and wanted to make it seem genuine.
The statement implied that, if he was town, he was that. It was an emotional statement regardless. I was angry at him.
So you had an epihony? yet later you state that Kush could flip town and that I may be scum leading town astray? that does not fit at all.
That statement was in reference to why I didn't hardcore chase kush with you early. Instead, early in the game, I told you to essentially chill out. Also, you are reading out of context. It was a response to Z-Bo's accusation on my early FOS on kush, which is consistent with my confusion about my meta read on you.
+ Show Spoiler +On September 30 2012 04:58 debears wrote:@zbo I'm gonna try to do this from my phone. Show nested quote +EXCEPT THAT YOU HAD A FOS ON HIM!!!! Do you know what it means to be suspicious of someone? You don't follow up a case you've made against someone with: "look for coaches", they help town a lot!! You didn't say explicitly that you thought him town, but you absolutely ignore your previous post on him only to never mention it again. This reeks of an empty case, you know, the ones that mafia are forced to make.
When did i have a FOS against djo? You put this under the section against djo. Another thing i want to address is your assumption that early d1 posts and cases carry a lot of weight. They don't.my cases against you and djo were based on the suspiciousness of your posts. They weren't full on you're scum in depth cases. Besides, people change their minds a bit on d1. The next thing i want to address is your assumption on the weight and meaning of a fos. To me, a fos is a heads up that Im suspicious of you qnd ill be watching. It doesnt necessarily mean I'm gonna make a huge case on you. Finally, i want to address your assumptions of what townies do d1. As a townie, i have no idea who is what. Its confusing as hell. Why wouldnt i change my mind and explore more than kush d1. There are more than 1 scum. How am i supposed to know whether darth himself is scum trying to push an easy target (i will expand more on this tonight when i am at my computer) or whether he is a townie truly overconfident in his belief about kush being scum. A good case doesnt necessarily mean someone is town. Look at my case against thrawn last game. Finally, why does everyone seem so damn confident in their reads? Especially on day 1?
It is a stupid argument? you will have to do better than that. Because a.) it is not a stupid argument. And b.) I think you have trouble defending against it because it is damning.
So you think Z-Bo's modwarning assocation case is reasonable? Especially before kush even flipped? Wow. I would like to here some analysis from the coaches/mods on this post game.
Also, why wouldn't someone separate themselves from someone who is considered scum by the whole town? Eveyone had their vote on kush. A townie like me does the same shit as a mafia in case he actually does, which I was pretty convinced of atm.
Also, you honestly think I would have trouble defending myself from a stupid association case? Did you even see me as scum last game? When I was guilty of hardcore sheeping onto Thrawn all d1, I managed to fight my way out of that. Now, when I am innocent, why would I have any trouble now? This stupid case is way less damning than a early hardcore town read sheep case when the whole town is on my ass.
Because. I stated very clearly that I would vote for whoever did the most scum hunting. You then proceed to tunnell alsn like a maniac. Who also happens to be your direct lynch opponent. And alsn does not seem to want to do things which he believes are anti town to fulfil some arbitrary objective I set. But you do. Just like what I said about lurker lynches. If you give scum a goal in order to be safe. They will set out to meet this goal. I gave you both a 'goal'. you compromised and backtracked on what you previously had stated was anit town. (Tunnelling hard) Alsn did not nearly as much.
When did you state this vote thing? Also, you contradict yourself by saying it's an "objective you set" although you say you would vote for "whoever did the most scum hunting". Second, there's a reason he's a direct lynch opponent and I'm suspicious of him, it's because he is acting extremely scummy. And the Alsn doesn't want to do anti-town....what does that mean? How is him doing nothing pro town? Why is he avoiding doing any scumhunting and answering my case against him for example?
This whole "goal to be safe" for scum is WIFOM. Your an idiot. If you actually did set this "scumhunting standard", then you are a retard if you think it's a scum trap. Any actual townie would make extensive cases like I have. Now, you are damning me for what you did d1. Also, I wasn't just tunneling him early on. I had a scum read on corrosion. Unfortunately, he decided to stop posting and the mods said they were gonna release info about him soon, which they have not.
Your reasoning has blatant holes. Take off your confirmation bias goggles for a while and actually read through my filter looking at my explanations, motivations, etc from a townie and mafia perspective. Then, make a decision.
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ebwop see the most scumhunting part. the part about why a townie would do it still stands. It's what you would expect a townie to do anyways
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On October 02 2012 14:45 DarthPunk wrote:Show nested quote +On October 02 2012 14:27 debears wrote: ebwop - if you want me to bring up the posts on my defense against your meta/"soft defend of kush" and the "scumslip" then I will It should be obvious from my case against you that I have read your filter in depth. Of course I don't believe a lot of what you are saying. I think you are scum.
Ah sweet confirmation bias
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k im off to bed. cya in the morn!
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Hi Shady!!
@Alsn
To me d1 case on you isn't as strong as the d2 case.
You keep saying you don't want to defend yourself, yet you haven't scumhunted
Your vote for me was weak
+ Show Spoiler +On October 02 2012 00:21 Alsn wrote:Show nested quote +On October 01 2012 23:48 debears wrote: Alsn, you misunderstood what I was stating in my case against you. You have yet to make any real contribution to the thread. In the qt, you were making a scum team list constantly. You have yet to do that. The most extent you've gone so far is "debears looks scummy" up until the time you vote for me. That was an obs QT. I was commenting as an observer, not as a player. If you really wanted to know how I play you should check my last actual game. I never committed to anyone as scum in that game either, for the same reasons as now. I am not confident at all that I have found any scum yet. The only one's that are giving me scum vibes are you and some of the lurky posters, but having gone through their filters I keep coming up with any compelling reasons that I can't hand wave away in my head as "this guy is probably new". Right now I can only go on the fact that I find you scummier than anyone else, but I'm actually quite scared of the possibility that some of the people I think are town might really just be clever scum. I'm not all that convinced about you to be honest but if I had to wager I'd give you flipping scum something like a 40% chance. I need more information and for now I'd be content with confirming your alignment.
And the main reason you want to lynch me is that you want to get information. Oh and you don't feel anyone is more likely scum than not (40% is less than 50/50).
Can I also bring up a post from your last game on this?
+ Show Spoiler +On August 24 2012 11:59 Alsn wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2012 11:45 kushm4sta wrote:Wow you sounded really smart about lvdr he seems fishy how he constantly shifts the focus to those he knows aren't mafia. And he does it in a very non constructive way. However you suspect me for some reason which is just wrong. If I were mafia I would be super nice and would not be aggressive or defensive in any way actually. It's because im town that I'm not afraid to act like this because I have nothing to hide. Basically I think you are mistaking "bad play" for guilt. Lvdr is 85 percent mafia in my mind though. We should lynch him.
I've already warned you, this is not a game based on gut feeling and emotion. A statement such as "85% mafia" is something which needs a lot more evidence than a few one-liners this early into the game. You are providing a lot of controversy with very little thoughtful analysis. I ask that if you are truly town to take a good look at yourself and think. You most certainly do not have to blame someone else in order for yourself to look like less of a target. In fact, baseless accusation only lets scum attack you for being incoherent while in one fell swoop make themselves look like town-heroes. This with town having only to agree that you were playing very weirdly. I do believe that you are simply responding in a knee-jerk fashion to our attacks against you. Take a deep breath, take a look at what you have said, and think about if you really had good reason to say the things you did. If not, simply tell us. But if you truly suspect someone, you absolutely must provide better evidence than "waaah, he called me bad!", otherwise the rest of us can't make any sense of your suspicions.
Didn't you just use the whole percent mafia thing on me in a one-liner?
Also, you stated multiple times d1 about your gut, yet last game you didn't believe in "gut feeling" as town.
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@Z-Bo
In your "race for the lynch" case, you mentioned that you gave me the Alsn case to fall back on.
Look at the timestamp
+ Show Spoiler +On September 30 2012 17:13 Z-BosoN wrote:So I woke up a couple of hours earlier than I should have. Instead of going back to sleep, I decide to go read some filters. Sometimes I hate this game rofl. Anyways, I will agree with one thing DP said, alsn is scummy as shit. Look at his stance on kush throughout the thread. Brief timeline here: ACT I - Kush. If you are scummy like last game, I will lynch you no matter what.+ Show Spoiler +On September 28 2012 16:54 Alsn wrote:Hey everyone, just woke up and was about to check when the game was supposed to start. Imagine my surprise when it's already started! Although looking closely the game started as I went to sleep, so I wouldn't have been able to participate until now either way. So in any case, I'm Alsn, I like logic. My previous mafia games so far amount to a single one, a game where I was NKd N1 as Vanilla Townie. My filter for that game can be found here. Other than that I have only ever played SC2 Mafia in any significant amounts(a game while using the same core rules, plays extremely different due to the time constraints and limits on discussion). If you are interested, I was also active in the /obs QT discussion of NMMXXVII which can be found here. So, with that out of the way, I read the first few posts and saw that this game continues the trend of lurker policy lynching. I agree that there needs to be pressure on scum to actually post, since without scum posts to analyse all the scumhunting in the world will almost certainly only turn up townies(due to lurkers generally being null reads). That said, I followed Tl Mafia LVII wherein there was a lot of discussion about lynching "trolly meta" players and I would like to take that one step further. Kush, while I realize that you have a posting style which by its nature is very confrontational and inflammatory, I feel that unless you actually provide some concrete analysis without using almost purely OMGUS argumentation that it is in town's best interest to just straight up lynch you right away. Simply put, unless your cases actually provide substance then I think you will just be a late game liability for town, mostly giving everyone a null read and potentially forcing people to make a town or scum read on you without having much of an idea what you are. So to sum up, kush, I can definitely forgive you for your "style" of posting but I will not under any circumstance forgive you for posting shitty content, just like I will not forgive anyone else for doing so either. Understand that I'm not singling you out as a target, I'm using your history as an example for what I consider scummy play. Now, on to actually read the thread and see if I can respond to something. ACT II - It is as we feared. Kush has defiled us all. FOS Kush+ Show Spoiler +On September 28 2012 17:56 Alsn wrote:Wow, upon reading the thread I realise that kush has been following the exact pattern I just now specified to be the way not to play if he wanted to absolve himself in my eyes. In fact, I could go back to my initial posts to him in NMMXXV saying almost the exact same thing. As such, I think I have no choice but to cast a: FoS kushm4stakush, in order for me to let up, I want you to stop it with your ridiculous knee-jerk play and actually point out why you think other people are scummy as opposed to why you yourself is so obviously town. While the following idiom is quite ironic in a forum game, actions speak louder than words and you defending yourself is just that, meaningless words. Start proving to everyone that you are concerned with finding scum instead of worrying about your silly streak. That being said, I think everyone else is jumping the gun here, kush is an extremely easy target to pick on, especially since he almost never seems to think before he posts. The scumslip that Darth and others pointed out can definitely be seen as damning. However, I am not inclined to agree with the following post from Darth: Show nested quote +On September 28 2012 13:46 DarthPunk wrote:I am not flaming Kush. I am legitimately scum hunting. The contrast in this situation, to the one with shiao, are so stark that there is no point even bringing it up. You will know when I am flaming when you see it, and even then it is not really that big a scum tell. I can tell the difference between Scummy town and actual scum, and it is not 'illogical' to be able to do this. Kush right now is not scummy town. He has slipped HUGELY. He is conforming to his previous scum meta. Seriously...
There is no explanation for his town read on me. The only reason he would say that is if he was scum. This last part seems to overly simplify the matter to me. The only reason? I myself can see a few reasons, but I would like kush to reply himself before I comment further as I don't want to give him an easy out. I can state for the record that unless kush shapes up considerably, I'm all in favour of lynching him. Simply because him playing like his normal self would be a liability for town later on due to his inclination to just defend himself over hunting scum. However, I definitely want to give him the benefit of the doubt and allow him to actually try and show that he has town's best interest in mind. So until then, while I definitely would like everyone to share their reads on kush so far, that is not enough for D1. We need to start exploring different possibilities because if we decide to lynch kush and he flips green, spending all of D1 talking about him will put us back at square one minus two townies. I'll make another post within an hour or two on another topic as I think I've made myself perfectly clear on where I stand on kush, but right now I need breakfast. ACT III - DarthPunk, you are going overboard on kush. I find you using ridiculous logic. How are you so sure of this and that? Hm.... I'll go with you being townie, ya know, for throwing yourself out there.+ Show Spoiler +On September 28 2012 22:03 Alsn wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2012 21:38 DarthPunk wrote:On September 28 2012 21:31 Alsn wrote: he has pointed out that he doesn't agree with your tunneling of kush. I find it astonishing that you 'interpret' debears' post that way in context of your view of Z-Boson. The way in which you paraphrase things whilst obscuring the truth/ put your own angle on things has me very concerned. Astonishing how? I would like you to explain what's so amazingly pro-town about tunneling kush from the very beginning. I find the risks of that approach to be very high from a town perspective. There are two scenarios: A) He flips green, and unless he during the day completely changed his character we will have almost no way of distinguishing who among the people who pushed for his lynch were scum and who were town. B) He flips scum, at this point I just don't find that likely enough to risk A) happening. That fact alone is enough for me to see that post of debears as entirely reasonable, since both of you at the time were basically calling out kush for every single post he was making(for good reason, but not if that's the only thing you are doing). + Show Spoiler +On September 29 2012 00:24 Alsn wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2012 22:39 DarthPunk wrote:On September 28 2012 22:03 Alsn wrote:On September 28 2012 21:38 DarthPunk wrote:On September 28 2012 21:31 Alsn wrote: he has pointed out that he doesn't agree with your tunneling of kush. I find it astonishing that you 'interpret' debears' post that way in context of your view of Z-Boson. The way in which you paraphrase things whilst obscuring the truth/ put your own angle on things has me very concerned. Astonishing how? I would like you to explain what's so amazingly pro-town about tunneling kush from the very beginning. I find the risks of that approach to be very high from a town perspective. There are two scenarios: A) He flips green, and unless he during the day completely changed his character we will have almost no way of distinguishing who among the people who pushed for his lynch were scum and who were town. B) He flips scum, at this point I just don't find that likely enough to risk A) happening. That fact alone is enough for me to see that post of debears as entirely reasonable, since both of you at the time were basically calling out kush for every single post he was making(for good reason, but not if that's the only thing you are doing). I was not just looking at Kush. I was looking at the reactions to my case on kush also, Namely debears. As far as I am concerned Kush is scum and therefore it is best for town to lynch him. I like to focus on one thing at a time. Especially when he is incredibly scummy and has SCUM SLIPPED It is a common scum hunting technique and has been recommended in Several postgames. Obviously It was not to the exclusion of all others because I am now looking at you and debears. If there was nothing to go on I would have changed tac. Turns out he is scum. So I try and get him lynched. Savvy? On September 28 2012 22:03 Alsn wrote: That fact alone is enough for me to see that post of debears as entirely reasonable, since both of you at the time were basically calling out kush for every single post he was making(for good reason, but not if that's the only thing you are doing). So you don't find Kush likely to flip scum? good to know. Z -Boson hardly called out kush. I made a case. I was not tunnelling. (but I see that is the misconception you are trying to present) If by some miracle he flips green there is still a lot of info to go off. Your premise iswrong and thus your conclusions are wrong. I was calling out Kush for good reason? and at the same time Debears was entirely reasonable in shutting that down? ##FoS ALSN Given the evidence so far no, I don't, and frankly I don't see why that's so hard to believe. Given his history, it should be easy to see for anyone that while he has different town and scum metas(as pointed out by Hapahauli in the obs QT of NMMXVII), his comments so far this game is entirely in line with the way he usually posts during D1. Basically just writing up whatever is on his mind. That to me doesn't really increase or decrease the chances of him flipping either way(but the setup of the game says all else being equal, 75% of the players are green, 25% are scum) Yes, you called him out for good reason because his arguments(like so many times before this game) make little to no sense. But right now the only thing I really agree actually points to him being scum is what you call his scum slip. I just do not agree with you of just how damning that statement is. The first thing that sprang to mind when I saw you quoting that was simply that townie was an odd word to use, why not use player? But a confirmed scum slip? Come on, it's not like he said something that is entirely outside the realm of possibility for a town player to say. "Townie" wouldn't be the word I'd use, but I just can't see it as that obvious a scum slip. I'll accept that you are not necessarily wrong for thinking so however. Given that there are no other developments then sure, I'll admit that there's at least a higher chance of kush being scum than a random lurker being scum. But I would really like it if we could at least try to get better odds than that. Best case scenario for me would be actually having everyone talk, present cases and opinions and if no one else presents themselves as scummy, then and only then will I roll the dice on kush. Remember, there are 3 scum, not only one. Who knows, if he's scum as you say, he might look even scummier by lynch time. The case being what it is with kush, I can see now that what you were doing wasn't tunneling per se. However, I think you are doing the very thing you are accusing me of doing where you say debears was trying to "shut down" the case against kush. Like I've said several times now, that's not at all how I interpreted it, only that we shouldn't limit ourselves to a single discussion topic which at the time I felt debears was trying to suggest. Something that I happen to agree with. Show nested quote +On September 28 2012 22:39 DarthPunk wrote:I made a case. I was not tunnelling. (but I see that is the misconception you are trying to present) If by some miracle he flips green there is still a lot of info to go off. Your premise iswrong and thus your conclusions are wrong. This statement makes little sense to me. You say you were not tunneling, which I can now appreciate as probably true, but up until recently was not clear at all to me(and probably not to anyone else either). You had made quite a lot of posts in a row with kush as the only topic, as well as trying to convince others in the thread that he absolutely, 100%, no doubt whatsoever must be scum. I didn't find it unreasonable that someone would point that fact out to you. My "premise" was simply that if I find an argument reasonable, someone else trying to poke holes in that argument might not have the same motivations as myself, thus they are suspicious. The bolded line is ridiculous however, especially in context with the sentence before it. What makes you so sure that we would have "a lot of info to go off" in the case of everyone tunneling kush and us lynching him? My A) vs. B) scenario that you are referring to was dependent on the hypothetical scenario of everyone tunneling kush(which I already explained seemed to be where things were going at the time). I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and say that you misunderstood what I was trying to say instead of deliberately using a red herring to try and discredit me. With that in mind, based on your willingness to put yourself out there, I have a slight town read on you. INTERLUDE --- kush goes ape shit. Ravages town with his treachery. Denies every chance he has to be saved, and wails incessantly. The ACT I prophecy was correct. However... ACT IV - It is as I feared. Everyone is voting for kush with little discussion. I dislike this lynch. I'm ok with lynching kush, but I wanna lynch my biggest scum read. You know, the one I don't have. Also, I think that scum wouldn't just go ahead and bus. You know, they would probably most likely trying to find another solution other than bussing. You know, like the thing I'm trying to do right now.+ Show Spoiler +On September 29 2012 18:17 Alsn wrote: First, I'd like to start things with stating so far D1 has pretty much lived up to my exact nightmare scenario that I speculated about when arguing with DP yesterday. Everyone is voting kush with only very little discussion about any other topic(mainly, the debears-boson exchange).
Looking at the vote count, the last official count says 7, and now corrosion added his vote for a total of 8. With myself that would be 9, the exact number of town in this game. From my point of view, unless kushm4sta, Djodref and Lesrah are the 3 scum, there are scum pushing this lynch.
Given that, I'm really starting to dislike this lynch. I agree however that kush has been mostly concerned with defending himself against perceived injustice rather than actually trying to hunt scum, this still does not convince me that he is scum. Lynching scum with an overwhelming majority D1 just seems like way too improbably. Sure, if we had to fight tooth and nail to get 7 votes, I might buy it, but that's not the case. It seems to me there must be scum sheeping onto this lynch.
Like I've stated before I can go along with the kush lynch, but I'd rather try and lynch my top scum read at this point and with the current developments, I see a kush lynch more as a last resort than my main scum read. Unfortunately, this argument is only available to people who have yet to vote and are town, as well as to scum since other than myself only scum are aware of my alignment. For everyone else, the "unless a, b and c are scum" argument will include me.
My argument is at least enough to convince myself, so I'll be scouring the thread for the next couple of hours to see if my "gut scum reads" so far have any merit and if so push that/those case(s) instead. If it turns out that they are going nowhere, I will vote kush. But I still feel we have enough time to at least have a discussion on the topic of "just wtf is going on here?!". On September 29 2012 18:28 Alsn wrote: A quick addendum, I'm aware that scum pushing the lynch does not exonerate kush since they could be bussing him. However, given the assumption that kush is scum and there are active scum among the voters, I just find it more likely that they would try and find another solution than bussing, especially since it's D1. That's my main reason for not being convinced that kush is scum. ACT V - The resolve. I've had a vision. It is inevitable, kush must be lynched. I have realized the errors of my ways and it is imperative that kush is lynched.+ Show Spoiler +On September 29 2012 21:15 Alsn wrote: I've been doing some soul searching and I'm starting to agree that it's not worth it to try and push any other cases right now.
Mostly because my entire premise was that I was thinking it to be unlikely for kush to be scum. I realise that after trying to put into words why I think that is so, I have nothing other than the fact that I "feel" him to be town, which is a really stupid reason for absolving him. I thought I could back it up by saying he's been pressured to hard, there's no way he's responsible for not scum hunting. But in the end, I can't find a logical reason to forgive him if I exclude my own gut feeling from the equation.
I think now that my best option is to hold on to whatever small reads I have(because while I have some suspicions, I don't think they are rock solid) until after the lynch is over. Because at least then, we will have more information.
So for now, although my gut is screaming at me, I'll commit to voting for kush, mostly because most of what I said about BosoN has returned somewhat satisfactory answers, I really don't like the way a lot of people got away with not basically posting anything at all(I'm looking at you, Djodref, corrosion, Omniscient, RemedySC). I think that's probably what irks me the most, the thing I was most hoping would not happen, did happen.
##Vote: kushm4sta sup scum? anyone?
Notice when I first mention making a case on Alsn when I was guessing who Darth thought was scum. Look at the timestamp.
On September 30 2012 10:37 debears wrote: @DP
Alsn and Corrosion are your other two im betting.
I'm making a case on both, with corrosion first.
And then look at the corrosion case timestamp. Also, read the very last sentence of the post
+ Show Spoiler +On September 30 2012 11:51 debears wrote:@DP My second case that I mentioned last night was going to be SDM, for his meta this game is way off from last game in terms of activity. However, his posts are solid so far. Thus, I'm not gonna waste my time when there are others that need to be addressed. @BosonWhen looking for scum after the lynch of kush, my main targets are people who voted after it was clear that he was doomed. Also, I look at who doubted the reasoning for kush's lynch before he became doomed and then suddenly switched after he was doomed. All 4 of those lurkers fall into the category of voting for him after it was clear he would be lynched. Another person to add to this list is Alsn (who I will address later). By my count, the voting happened in this order 1)DP(cancel later) 2)Stutters 3)SDM 4)Z-Boson 5)Me 6)Omniscient 7)DP 8)RemedySC 9)Djodret 10)Corrosion 11)Alsn In terms of the 4 lurkers you wanted me to look at, I believe Corrosion would be the most likely scum. 1) Remedy's posting has been better than last games. I don't see anything eye popping 2) Djodref - He is wish washy with his convictions and seems easily persuaded. However, his case against corrosion seems to bear weight Those two are null reads for me atm. Now for the second two. Both come off as scummy. 3) Omniscient - His first big post Show nested quote +On September 29 2012 01:31 Omniscient4983 wrote:On the whole Kush-scumslip ordeal... The game began, and people were stating their opinions about lurking lynching. DP notes that talk of this policy is simply a way to engage day 1 conversation, and that extended discussion of it can be suspicious. Kush then says: On September 28 2012 09:01 kushm4sta wrote:
Sorry but who appointed this asshole boss?
It's quite the arrogant remark, to be honest. DP may have been a little stern with his wording, but he certainly didn't come off as an "asshole boss" to me. In my opinion, Kush came on too strong regardless of his role--and i certainly don't like the play. People have mentioned his "scummy meta", but I don't read it as scum, just inconsiderate. This remark catapulted into the DP-Kush arguments. When Kush refers to DP as an "active townie", DP accuses him of a huge slip. On September 28 2012 11:27 DarthPunk wrote:
How do you know I am town? You are SCUM The accusation was simple reciprocation. Kush was strong with DP, and now DP is going hard on him with evidence. Fair enough. While the aforementioned scumslip could have been a townie error, I find Kush's response underwhelming, and still, a bit arrogant. On September 28 2012 20:12 kushm4sta wrote:
2. My supposed scumslip: huh? What else should I have called you? Player? Person? Maybe but to me those things sound awkward. Townie just seemed like the most non awkward word to use. Innocent until proven guilty. That's how we do it in America bro.
To me, "The most active player; the most active person" don't seem awkward to me. The excuse is weak. And the "bro" at the end is telling of people with weak defenses that need to seem confident. Those are just my thoughts on Kush so far: Reckless, overconfident, and a little suspicious. A summary of the kush saga, no in depth analysis, he's a "little suspicious" The next post about kush Show nested quote +On September 29 2012 02:40 Omniscient4983 wrote: @ Z-BosoN
The narrative was intentional; both to reiterate events and to weave my thoughts into it.
My stance is pretty clear on Kush. He's definitely a possible lynch candidate in my eyes, but I wouldn't go as far as to vote him just yet. Yet again, hasn't really stated a strong position. His only posts in terms of cases are about kush, yet doesn't really make a real read. Finally, the vote post Show nested quote +On September 29 2012 09:44 Omniscient4983 wrote:Woosh, I get back from a little dinner and find Kush complaining about 2 votes and giving up on the world. From a gameplay perspective, I don't feel the whining is conveying any sort of innocence. The dramatization / apologizing is being overplayed. As debears put it, Kush is either: On September 29 2012 09:08 debears wrote:
1) Mafia trying to pity your way out of being lynched. or 2) A little bitch
##Vote: Kush He quickly turned from not being sure to voting based on my reasoning, although he is suspicious of me at this point, as shown by this post Show nested quote +On September 29 2012 11:48 Omniscient4983 wrote: @Kush
I found Z-BosoN's case to bear much validity, actually. It confirmed the suspicions I had when debears instantly assumed djodref was a townie. How was his case so, erm, "try harded"? After the lynch, his posts go off a little bit. + Show Spoiler +On September 30 2012 06:27 Omniscient4983 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 30 2012 06:09 Djodref wrote:
I would like people to focus more on corrosion than debears because corrosion tired to cast a scummy shadow on Darth while deabears looks more genuine.
I agree we should take the focus off of Debears, as Z-BosoN did a fair job of outlining the points against him. But why Corrosion? I realize he opposed the fact that Darth was so heavily attacking Kush, but I don't think he was casting him in a "scummy shadow". His case against Darth was based on nothing, really; just the fact that he thought pursuing the scum-slip and ignoring everyone else was a poor idea. I don't read Corrosion as scum at all. And Debears in no way looks more genuine than him. For someone suspicious of me, I do find it odd that you suddenly want to shift focus off me. Also, your defense of corrosion was odd. His posts have been scummy (bear with me on this one I am addressing Corrosion after omniscient). This next post is the first actual, original case I've seen him post Show nested quote +On September 30 2012 07:21 Omniscient4983 wrote:I've been reading through RemedySC's filter. I found his last post in particular a bit odd. + Show Spoiler +On September 29 2012 21:59 corrosion wrote: Let me just state the reasons that my vote is on Kush right now:
I'm sorry, but I don't believe these are reasons a town would choose to make a vote. On September 29 2012 21:59 corrosion wrote: 1) I think his explanation of the slip was poor. If he had given a good explanation, I might have believed him. So the scum slip itself doesn't give you good reason to vote for him, but his poor defense does? A mafia making a scum slip could have the best explanation in the world. That doesn't exonerate them. On September 29 2012 21:59 corrosion wrote: 2) I've been thinking about who would benefit if the result is a no-lynch. I'm thinking mafia is likely to benefit the most from a no-lynch.
So your second reason isn't even something that Kush has done. Wouldn't you also say that mafia would benefit from a mis-lynch more than from a no-lynch? Could you elaborate more on the bolded part, because you give no explanation as to how a mafia would benefit more from a no-lynch. On September 29 2012 21:59 corrosion wrote: Right now, I think that there's more than a 25 % chance that Kush is scum. Therefore, I'm voting for him. I'm not sure if any of these points are original. I'm having trouble keeping up with the thread, because I tend to get hanged up in details.
You would think a town would want to be more than 25% sure the person they are voting for is scum. You don't even have any cases made against kush. No questions asked. Very vague reasons given...I find it odd that RSC was attacking Corrosion for voting Kush. At this point in the game, RSC had already cast his vote for Kush, and his best reason was: On September 29 2012 12:14 RemedySC wrote:
You [Kush] are not creating an ideal atmosphere.
RSC doesn't really have much motivation for voting Kush, other than the fact that he's disruptive to the gameplay environment. Yet, he picks apart Corrosion for voting him. I don't understand why he'd attack Corrosion's "poor reasons" at all. Take a look at the bolded part of the spoiler. He condemns Corrosion for not having made any cases again Kush, yet RSC himself hasn't done anything of the sort. RSC hasn't posted anything in regards to Kush being scum besides the "creating a bad atmosphere" and "not posting in a pro-town manner" argument. RSC doesn't seem to be any more sure than Corrosion is about lynching Kush, yet he is condemning Corrosion for having bad reasoning. His post seems hypocritical to me. @RemedySC Why, if you had voted Kush with such little evidence, were you outing Corrosion for doing something similar? You almost seemed as if you were defending Kush for no reason in this post.I'm curious, and would like to hear your opinion on things. I feel as though he didn't sufficiently read Remedy's arguments, which were decent. I'm not sure if Omniscient realized this but corrosion was making a case on darth, the primary attacker of kush. By refuting Corrosion's argument about DP, Remedy was actually helping the case against kush. Show nested quote +On September 30 2012 09:10 Omniscient4983 wrote:@RemedySCAppreciate the response. I somewhat misinterpreted your goal in the post concerning Corrosion. Now that I look at it, the second reason for Corrosion's voting Kush is actually ridiculous. On a side note - are most people in this game asleep when we are able to post? Seems that way. Time differences He seems to understand what remedy was saying. Overall, this isn't a strong case. For that reason I'm going to wait for more posts from Omniscient. Corrosion, on the other hand, has stronger evidence piling up. First, his call out of remedy early in the game was unwarranted Show nested quote +On September 29 2012 02:47 corrosion wrote: @Remedy
You made two posts without much content early on D1, and there's been nothing since then. You implied that you were going to contribute more than last game you played. So why don't you tell us about your reads so far? He wants Remedy to post more and tell him about Remedy's reads. However, he had not posted any reads of his own at this point. It's contradicting. Something that can make him look like he's contributing. Now, on to him post about Darth Show nested quote +On September 29 2012 04:29 corrosion wrote:I'm just going to address the "fight" between Darth and Kush. I'm going to focus on Darth for now. Looking more closely into Kush's contribution is something I think should be done well ahead of lynch time. I'm actually going to start by telling about some thoughts I had after reading my role PM. I was trying to figure out what players town should be focusing on. I had obsed NMMXXVII, and came to the conclusion that it might be reasonable to go after any player except Kush. I figured that Kush was going to make a lot of posts anyway, so I was thinking that we could get a good analysis of him without any early pressure. One of the first things Darth did was to antagonize Kush: + Show Spoiler +On September 28 2012 08:34 DarthPunk wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2012 06:58 kushm4sta wrote: @sonic getting everyone's thoughts on lurker policy is important. Don't argue about it but share your views on the matter please.. No it's not. It is simply a mechanism to get the discussion going and allows scum to seem to participate and to potentially mislynch an inactive townie. Any more talk of policy will get you FoS'd. I'm thinking that this could easily be an attempt to start a fight that would result in derailing the thread. Kush responded the way I expected him to, and these two posters exchanged arguments back and forth. In the middle of this, Darth made a remark against lurkers, but quickly changed his focus back on Kush. On September 28 2012 10:36 DarthPunk wrote: So is everyone just going to drop their welcome posts and then afk? I don't see why he should make this comment at this time, since it wasn't going to get looked at while there was a fight going on.Shortly afterwards, Kush makes his supposed scum slip. Darth jumps on it, and shortly afterwards he posts about his previous mafia games. I 've watched the game where he played cop, and seen that he and Shady argued a lot on D1. So I was thinking that this seems to be Darth's town meta. But I also asked myself why he did post about his previous games at this point in time. Maybe this was all intentional. Suppose he suddenly remembered that game. He might not have wanted people to look at those games earlier, but now he realized that if he posted them he would be able to establish a town read on himself.I'm not sure if this is a strong case against Darth at the moment. I would like some input from the more experienced players here. If Kush hadn't made that slip, I think the derailing argument would have looked strong. Now it doesn't look so strong, because we've actually gotten new information. I'm not saying that I'm sure the scum slip is an actual slip, but if it is and it results in a succesful lynch, I think town got very lucky. Scum usually wouldn't slip in such an obvious manner.His cases against Debears and Alsn are something that might reveal useful information, but I've not studied them closely yet. I still think that Kush seems more suspicious when everything is taken into consideration but with all the focus that has been on him, I'm sure someone else can post a decent case on him before we need to consider our first lynch. This post really raised my eyes looking back at it. First, he mentions darth's "everybody stop leaving after your intro" post. He doesn't see reason although the reason is clear at that moment: everyone was doing that. Next, he brings up about why darth brought up darth's past games. It was pretty easy to see at that point that I asked darth for that information. This indicates to me that he(corrosion) wasn't reading the thread. He was most likely skimming. At all stages in the game, a townie must be reading and rereading the thread, since a townie has no extra information and townies have to catch the mafia. Mafia, on the other hand, don't have to do the same. They can get away with skimming since they just need to keep the town distracted. Now, I'm going to pull out the phrase with red I'm not saying that I'm sure the scum slip is an actual slip, but if it is and it results in a succesful lynch, I think town got very lucky. Scum usually wouldn't slip in such an obvious manner.Notice the wording, "I think town got lucky". Not we, the town. He seems to be excluding himself from us. Not strong at all in itself, but something to notice. If he thinks that town would be lucky if kush flipped red, then it is sensible to assume that he thinks kush is town. Next post, + Show Spoiler +On September 29 2012 07:17 corrosion wrote:Show nested quote +On September 29 2012 05:50 Z-BosoN wrote: corrosion, some issues with your post.
...
You're not seeing my points in the proper context. Now maybe you think my analysis is weak. I can understand that view. I haven't played in one of these before, so I'm not really good at seeing the difference between weak arguments and strong arguments. Some of the other posters in the thread encouraged new players to post, but maybe I should have waited awhile and tried to build a really solid case. Show nested quote + Who are you more inclined to vote on and why? I can't tell by the wishy-washy tone of your post
I haven't made up mind yet, so I'll be voting tomorrow. I'm thinking Kush, but I'll browse the latest developments tomorrow and see if anything has changed by then. So he thinks kush will most likely be town, yet he is thinking about voting for him? That's not sensible. Show nested quote +On September 29 2012 17:57 corrosion wrote:Good morning. I'm going to comment on a couple of things. + Show Spoiler +On September 29 2012 10:59 DarthPunk wrote:Addressing a few things that stood out to me. Show nested quote +On September 29 2012 04:29 corrosion wrote: Darth jumps on it, and shortly afterwards he posts about his previous mafia games. I've watched the game where he played cop, and seen that he and Shady argued a lot on D1. So I was thinking that this seems to be Darth's town meta. But I also asked myself why he did post about his previous games at this point in time. Maybe this was all intentional. Suppose he suddenly remembered that game. He might not have wanted people to look at those games earlier, but now he realized that if he posted them he would be able to establish a town read on himself. So yeah I went back through the thread to address this specifically. I was asked to post my previous mafia games. and then I did. And now that is some sort of attempt for me to use my meta to clear myself? Right. ... You're absolutely right. I see that you posted links to your previous games only a few minutes after Debears requested it. I missed this because I was just looking through your filter and didn't keep enough attention on the thread itself. My bad. I'm going to look at Stutter's case against Kush and other recent developments. For now, I'll vote as I implied in my last post. ##Vote Kushm4sta So, the one whom he thought would be a "lucky" scum flip is now his biggest scum read? In my eyes, this sudden flip can be easily explained if he is mafia. At this point, he is the second to last person to vote for kush. Kush is doomed. If he is mafia, he realizes there is no reason and should hop on the bandwagon. Notice that his reasoning is poor in previous posts. He never had a strong indication of kush as mafia. Furthermore, I want to point out that his only case at this point was kush. He had not done any scumhunting up to this point besides a one liner saying that I confirmed Djordref as town. You can say it's scumhunting but one line =/= a case. Hist next post is a response to Z-Boson. His responses are in the red (it's how he formatted it in his original post). + Show Spoiler +On September 29 2012 18:43 corrosion wrote:Adressing your issues: + Show Spoiler +
3) You are just rambling here, I think. I take the DP/kush exchange as being genuine, unless they are both scum and agreed to flaming each other. I don't think thta's likely, due to kush's fiery meta.
The first paragraph was a mistake by me, explained in my previous post. The intention of the second paragraph, was to try to get some feedback from other posters. Right now, I don't think the case is strong at all so I actually think people should focus more on their own reads and trying to find the best lynching candidate.
4) I don't get the reasoning behind this post. You are trying to make a case on DP, and concluded that you don't feel like it and actually think that kush is a better lynch? Also, stutters has made a case on him. Why not reference that?
I wasn't as much trying to make a case as just referencing my findings. I was trying the approach of focusing on one player (suggested in one of the guides). I figured that someone else was going to post a case on Kush, so I tried to focus on a player that noone else was pressuring much. I'll admit that my attempt seems to have failed quite a bit. The reason that I didn't reference Stutters, was that he made his case 7 minutes before I posted. I did not check the thread for new posts before I posted.
This post is another one that makes me scratch my head. He has a vote on kush, who he doesn't think will flip scum, and a case on DP. He drops the case on DP, now calling it a "reference" and stating that he "wasn't trying to make a case". Here, he finally states his reasoning for voting kush. Notice the timestamp. Way after his vote Show nested quote +On September 29 2012 21:59 corrosion wrote: Let me just state the reasons that my vote is on Kush right now:
1) I think his explanation of the slip was poor. If he had given a good explanation, I might have believed him. 2) I've been thinking about who would benefit if the result is a no-lynch. I'm thinking mafia is likely to benefit the most from a no-lynch.
Right now, I think that there's more than a 25 % chance that Kush is scum. Therefore, I'm voting for him. I'm not sure if any of these points are original. I'm having trouble keeping up with the thread, because I tend to get hanged up in details. His point 1) Notice the timestamp of his vote post. Now, look at the timestamp of kush's explanation + Show Spoiler +On September 28 2012 20:12 kushm4sta wrote: Sup have to make this post real quick. Will read everything and post on my phone late.r
1. Why are you putting my name in red like darth? it seems like you are subliminally trying to influence people to your cause. This is a game of logic not advertising.
2. My supposed scumslip: huh? What else should I have called you? Player? Person? Maybe but to me those things sound awkward. Townie just seemed like the most non awkward word to use. Innocent until proven guilty. That's how we do it in America bro.
Corrosion's vote came way after the explanation. He had made no mention about disliking the explanation even through his vote post. The only time he brings it up is way after the vote post when he decides to suddenly explain the reasoning for his vote On pt 2) What did the no lynch have to do with his vote on kush? A no lynch was not even in the discussion. At this point, there were 2 good candidates for lynching. Me and Kush. This is all way too odd to ignore. And finally, the last post I will look at + Show Spoiler +On September 30 2012 05:16 corrosion wrote:Show nested quote +On September 29 2012 05:50 Z-BosoN wrote: corrosion, some issues with your post.
3) You are just rambling here, I think. I take the DP/kush exchange as being genuine, unless they are both scum and agreed to flaming each other. I don't think thta's likely, due to kush's fiery meta.
I considered the possibility of both being scum early on but if both were scum, I see no reason whatsoever for Kush's scumslip. So I'm now saying that Darth is close to being confirmed town. This is something town should keep in mind during N1 and D2. It would be a spectacular bus if they did this on purpose. The only reason I can see for doing that, would be if Kush had slipped earlier in the thread. I do not think so but if someone wants to look into it, go ahead. I'm not going to spend my time on that. So he still has some suspicions in regard to DP, whom he was suspicious of d1. Yet, he says that some one else can check it out. He seems to not care about scumhunting and following his leads. He is not exhibiting townie behavior. If the town should keep it in mind, why isn't he researching it to help our cause? Overall, I could see Corrosion as scum. He follows the trend of what I look for. He doubted the case on kush (even tried a case against DP) but then suddenly switched to kush with no reasoning until later. His actions mostly have mafia motivations (unless I'm mistaken). Phew. Will have Alsn's case up most likely tomorrow. These take forever.
And here is the post of my alsn case. Granted, it is after your post, but it took a long ass time. Also, I had to remove the whole Alsn flipflopping on kush after seeing your case on him. Also,
+ Show Spoiler +On October 01 2012 05:06 debears wrote:So now it's time for my case on Alsn. Z-Bo has posted a good case. Now, I want to add onto a key element that I feel Z-bo missed: Alsn's scumhunting (or lack thereof). Show nested quote +On September 22 2012 06:53 Alsn wrote:I think it's high time to try and get myself NK'd again. /in Alsn's first post before the game. Everyone, if you do not know the depth of Alsn's focus and intelligence (or at least what it seems like to me) and stubborness, look at his posts from pregame and the obs qt from last game. If he was town, I would be sure that he would put his skills to work and actually attempt to be nked. Alright, on to the posts since the start of the game. + Show Spoiler +On September 28 2012 17:56 Alsn wrote:Wow, upon reading the thread I realise that kush has been following the exact pattern I just now specified to be the way not to play if he wanted to absolve himself in my eyes. In fact, I could go back to my initial posts to him in NMMXXV saying almost the exact same thing. As such, I think I have no choice but to cast a: FoS kushm4stakush, in order for me to let up, I want you to stop it with your ridiculous knee-jerk play and actually point out why you think other people are scummy as opposed to why you yourself is so obviously town. While the following idiom is quite ironic in a forum game, actions speak louder than words and you defending yourself is just that, meaningless words. Start proving to everyone that you are concerned with finding scum instead of worrying about your silly streak. That being said, I think everyone else is jumping the gun here, kush is an extremely easy target to pick on, especially since he almost never seems to think before he posts. The scumslip that Darth and others pointed out can definitely be seen as damning. However, I am not inclined to agree with the following post from Darth: Show nested quote +On September 28 2012 13:46 DarthPunk wrote:I am not flaming Kush. I am legitimately scum hunting. The contrast in this situation, to the one with shiao, are so stark that there is no point even bringing it up. You will know when I am flaming when you see it, and even then it is not really that big a scum tell. I can tell the difference between Scummy town and actual scum, and it is not 'illogical' to be able to do this. Kush right now is not scummy town. He has slipped HUGELY. He is conforming to his previous scum meta. Seriously...
There is no explanation for his town read on me. The only reason he would say that is if he was scum. This last part seems to overly simplify the matter to me. The only reason? I myself can see a few reasons, but I would like kush to reply himself before I comment further as I don't want to give him an easy out. I can state for the record that unless kush shapes up considerably, I'm all in favour of lynching him. Simply because him playing like his normal self would be a liability for town later on due to his inclination to just defend himself over hunting scum. However, I definitely want to give him the benefit of the doubt and allow him to actually try and show that he has town's best interest in mind. So until then, while I definitely would like everyone to share their reads on kush so far, that is not enough for D1. We need to start exploring different possibilities because if we decide to lynch kush and he flips green, spending all of D1 talking about him will put us back at square one minus two townies. I'll make another post within an hour or two on another topic as I think I've made myself perfectly clear on where I stand on kush, but right now I need breakfast. His point is fair and I agreed upon it. Everyone focusing on one person day 1 is usually not good. However, his later actions did not really follow this statement. Show nested quote +On September 28 2012 21:11 Alsn wrote: Bleh, and now I realised that that's a pretty bad summary of what I wanted to say.
Summary of my case: I feel that Z-BosoN is attacking people for the sake of attacking them and in a way that seems to be discouraging healthy discussion. As pointed out by my argument he seems to want debears to just shut up and not share his thoughts.
Him attacking SDM for a post obviously made just as a "Hello, let's have a nice game" type of post before heading off to bed just reinforces this idea to me that he is accusing people for dubious reasons. His cases against Z-Bo and DP were the only scumhunting during d1. His initial problem with Z-Bo was a point already addressed by me in terms of the post at SDM. This post in itself isn't a big deal. However, he continues to keep the argument the same and becomes stuck on the idea. + Show Spoiler +On September 28 2012 21:31 Alsn wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2012 21:14 DarthPunk wrote:On September 28 2012 21:11 Alsn wrote: Bleh, and now I realised that that's a pretty bad summary of what I wanted to say.
Summary of my case: I feel that Z-BosoN is attacking people for the sake of attacking them and in a way that seems to be discouraging healthy discussion. As pointed out by my argument he seems to want debears to just shut up and not share his thoughts.
Him attacking SDM for a post obviously made just as a "Hello, let's have a nice game" type of post before heading off to bed just reinforces this idea to me that he is accusing people for dubious reasons. So. Why have you not FoS'd debears then? Uh, what? For what? I admit I haven't looked all that closely on debears posting since I mostly looked at his filter to try and figure out what Z-BosoN was referring to, but as far as I can see he has done three things so far, he has pointed out that he doesn't agree with your tunneling of kush. I find that a reasonable thing to say, although not overwhelmingly useful other than as a reminder to you that there are other players in this game(which you have obviously noted by now since you are questioning me!) His other two arguments of note are against Z-BosoN which is basically the conversation line which I base my case upon, as well as calling out Djodref as someone who posts a lot but says little. The latter also seems perfectly reasonable from where I'm standing and as you must have noticed, I'm against Z-BosoN on the subject of the former. This post was addressed to DP. Yet again, you are really just repeating points and just agreeing with my views on the matter and defending me. + Show Spoiler +On September 29 2012 00:24 Alsn wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2012 22:39 DarthPunk wrote:On September 28 2012 22:03 Alsn wrote:On September 28 2012 21:38 DarthPunk wrote:On September 28 2012 21:31 Alsn wrote: he has pointed out that he doesn't agree with your tunneling of kush. I find it astonishing that you 'interpret' debears' post that way in context of your view of Z-Boson. The way in which you paraphrase things whilst obscuring the truth/ put your own angle on things has me very concerned. Astonishing how? I would like you to explain what's so amazingly pro-town about tunneling kush from the very beginning. I find the risks of that approach to be very high from a town perspective. There are two scenarios: A) He flips green, and unless he during the day completely changed his character we will have almost no way of distinguishing who among the people who pushed for his lynch were scum and who were town. B) He flips scum, at this point I just don't find that likely enough to risk A) happening. That fact alone is enough for me to see that post of debears as entirely reasonable, since both of you at the time were basically calling out kush for every single post he was making(for good reason, but not if that's the only thing you are doing). I was not just looking at Kush. I was looking at the reactions to my case on kush also, Namely debears. As far as I am concerned Kush is scum and therefore it is best for town to lynch him. I like to focus on one thing at a time. Especially when he is incredibly scummy and has SCUM SLIPPED It is a common scum hunting technique and has been recommended in Several postgames. Obviously It was not to the exclusion of all others because I am now looking at you and debears. If there was nothing to go on I would have changed tac. Turns out he is scum. So I try and get him lynched. Savvy? On September 28 2012 22:03 Alsn wrote: That fact alone is enough for me to see that post of debears as entirely reasonable, since both of you at the time were basically calling out kush for every single post he was making(for good reason, but not if that's the only thing you are doing). So you don't find Kush likely to flip scum? good to know. Z -Boson hardly called out kush. I made a case. I was not tunnelling. (but I see that is the misconception you are trying to present) If by some miracle he flips green there is still a lot of info to go off. Your premise iswrong and thus your conclusions are wrong. I was calling out Kush for good reason? and at the same time Debears was entirely reasonable in shutting that down? ##FoS ALSN Given the evidence so far no, I don't, and frankly I don't see why that's so hard to believe. Given his history, it should be easy to see for anyone that while he has different town and scum metas(as pointed out by Hapahauli in the obs QT of NMMXVII), his comments so far this game is entirely in line with the way he usually posts during D1. Basically just writing up whatever is on his mind. That to me doesn't really increase or decrease the chances of him flipping either way(but the setup of the game says all else being equal, 75% of the players are green, 25% are scum) Yes, you called him out for good reason because his arguments(like so many times before this game) make little to no sense. But right now the only thing I really agree actually points to him being scum is what you call his scum slip. I just do not agree with you of just how damning that statement is. The first thing that sprang to mind when I saw you quoting that was simply that townie was an odd word to use, why not use player? But a confirmed scum slip? Come on, it's not like he said something that is entirely outside the realm of possibility for a town player to say. "Townie" wouldn't be the word I'd use, but I just can't see it as that obvious a scum slip. I'll accept that you are not necessarily wrong for thinking so however. Given that there are no other developments then sure, I'll admit that there's at least a higher chance of kush being scum than a random lurker being scum. But I would really like it if we could at least try to get better odds than that. Best case scenario for me would be actually having everyone talk, present cases and opinions and if no one else presents themselves as scummy, then and only then will I roll the dice on kush. Remember, there are 3 scum, not only one. Who knows, if he's scum as you say, he might look even scummier by lynch time.The case being what it is with kush, I can see now that what you were doing wasn't tunneling per se. However, I think you are doing the very thing you are accusing me of doing where you say debears was trying to "shut down" the case against kush. Like I've said several times now, that's not at all how I interpreted it, only that we shouldn't limit ourselves to a single discussion topic which at the time I felt debears was trying to suggest. Something that I happen to agree with. Show nested quote +On September 28 2012 22:39 DarthPunk wrote:I made a case. I was not tunnelling. (but I see that is the misconception you are trying to present) If by some miracle he flips green there is still a lot of info to go off. Your premise iswrong and thus your conclusions are wrong. This statement makes little sense to me. You say you were not tunneling, which I can now appreciate as probably true, but up until recently was not clear at all to me(and probably not to anyone else either). You had made quite a lot of posts in a row with kush as the only topic, as well as trying to convince others in the thread that he absolutely, 100%, no doubt whatsoever must be scum. I didn't find it unreasonable that someone would point that fact out to you. My "premise" was simply that if I find an argument reasonable, someone else trying to poke holes in that argument might not have the same motivations as myself, thus they are suspicious. The bolded line is ridiculous however, especially in context with the sentence before it. What makes you so sure that we would have "a lot of info to go off" in the case of everyone tunneling kush and us lynching him? My A) vs. B) scenario that you are referring to was dependent on the hypothetical scenario of everyone tunneling kush(which I already explained seemed to be where things were going at the time). I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and say that you misunderstood what I was trying to say instead of deliberately using a red herring to try and discredit me. With that in mind, based on your willingness to put yourself out there, I have a slight town read on you. Looking at this post, let's keep in mind what Alsn has done at this point. He has defended me. He has defended Kush, playing off scumslip. His only scumhunt cases are against darth and z-bo. His case against darth is based off darth's hard tunneling of kush. His case on z-bo is Z-bo's post on SDM and Z-Bo's post on me. Also, look at how he brings up "Everyone bring up a case and we'll look for other scummy people". Yet, he has failed to actually do the same. He now thinks Darth is town by suddenly changing his mind on the tunneling issue, even though he believes tunneling isn't good. " I would like you to explain what's so amazingly pro-town about tunneling kush from the very beginning. I find the risks of that approach to be very high from a town perspective." Now, I would like to move on to another topic with Alsn. He promises scumhunting and big posts. He wants everyone to make good cases about people other than kush. Yet, he doesn't actually follow through. + Show Spoiler +On September 29 2012 17:40 Alsn wrote:Just now caught up and saw this post. Really? I Said I'd be back about 12 hours before lynch, I've been reading the thread for an hour which makes that statement pretty much exactly right. But your own comment on the other hand is from before I even said I'd be waking up and checking the thread. You are not making yourself look any better than when I first called you out for grasping at straws. Will be posting some pretty substantial posts(I suspect, based on what I've read so far) within the next couple of hours. Here, he promises substantial posts. These are the next three posts. + Show Spoiler +On September 29 2012 18:17 Alsn wrote: First, I'd like to start things with stating so far D1 has pretty much lived up to my exact nightmare scenario that I speculated about when arguing with DP yesterday. Everyone is voting kush with only very little discussion about any other topic(mainly, the debears-boson exchange).
Looking at the vote count, the last official count says 7, and now corrosion added his vote for a total of 8. With myself that would be 9, the exact number of town in this game. From my point of view, unless kushm4sta, Djodref and Lesrah are the 3 scum, there are scum pushing this lynch.
Given that, I'm really starting to dislike this lynch. I agree however that kush has been mostly concerned with defending himself against perceived injustice rather than actually trying to hunt scum, this still does not convince me that he is scum. Lynching scum with an overwhelming majority D1 just seems like way too improbably. Sure, if we had to fight tooth and nail to get 7 votes, I might buy it, but that's not the case. It seems to me there must be scum sheeping onto this lynch.
Like I've stated before I can go along with the kush lynch, but I'd rather try and lynch my top scum read at this point and with the current developments, I see a kush lynch more as a last resort than my main scum read. Unfortunately, this argument is only available to people who have yet to vote and are town, as well as to scum since other than myself only scum are aware of my alignment. For everyone else, the "unless a, b and c are scum" argument will include me.
My argument is at least enough to convince myself, so I'll be scouring the thread for the next couple of hours to see if my "gut scum reads" so far have any merit and if so push that/those case(s) instead. If it turns out that they are going nowhere, I will vote kush. But I still feel we have enough time to at least have a discussion on the topic of "just wtf is going on here?!". This post is odd. His main points are 1)There are scum voting for kush (duh) 2) He doesn't like the kush lynch and 3) He is going to try to lynch his top scum read and "scour the thread" for others. There is nothing of substance in this post. He's just stating the obvious and promising more scumhunting. + Show Spoiler +On September 29 2012 18:28 Alsn wrote: A quick addendum, I'm aware that scum pushing the lynch does not exonerate kush since they could be bussing him. However, given the assumption that kush is scum and there are active scum among the voters, I just find it more likely that they would try and find another solution than bussing, especially since it's D1. That's my main reason for not being convinced that kush is scum. The next post is nothing better. Nothing substantial. Just speculation on what the scum would do. + Show Spoiler +On September 29 2012 18:29 Alsn wrote:Show nested quote +On September 29 2012 18:21 Djodref wrote: @Alsn
I also voted for Kush for your information Right, I missed that, thanks for pointing it out. That just confirms it though, from my point of view there are scum pushing for his lynch. For everyone else out there, unless me, Lesrah and kush are the scumteam, there are scum among the voters. Yet again, he's repeating his points. Nothing substantial. His promise of something was not kept. Still no actual scumhunting. Show nested quote +On September 29 2012 20:02 Alsn wrote:EBWOP again: Just realized it, WIFOM what? How the hell is my analysis of the vote numbers WIFOM. It's logical that from the point of view of a townie that has voted, the only way kush is scum, is if me and Lesrah are scum too. It's simple math. Given that I have more information than all the townies that have voted so far(I know my own alignment), I can of course conclude that there must be scum that voted for kush, regardless if kush is scum or not. So could Lesrah if he turns out to be town(but as things are looking now, he will probably be replaced/modkilled so he wouldn't participate in this lynch regardless). Do you even know what WIFOM is? I did not arbitrarily keep arguing back and forth, I made a logical conclusion from the information available. Ok. This post just repeats his earlier points. Now comes his change of opinion + Show Spoiler +On September 29 2012 21:15 Alsn wrote: I've been doing some soul searching and I'm starting to agree that it's not worth it to try and push any other cases right now.
Mostly because my entire premise was that I was thinking it to be unlikely for kush to be scum. I realise that after trying to put into words why I think that is so, I have nothing other than the fact that I "feel" him to be town, which is a really stupid reason for absolving him. I thought I could back it up by saying he's been pressured to hard, there's no way he's responsible for not scum hunting. But in the end, I can't find a logical reason to forgive him if I exclude my own gut feeling from the equation.
I think now that my best option is to hold on to whatever small reads I have(because while I have some suspicions, I don't think they are rock solid) until after the lynch is over. Because at least then, we will have more information.
So for now, although my gut is screaming at me, I'll commit to voting for kush, mostly because most of what I said about BosoN has returned somewhat satisfactory answers, I really don't like the way a lot of people got away with not basically posting anything at all(I'm looking at you, Djodref, corrosion, Omniscient, RemedySC). I think that's probably what irks me the most, the thing I was most hoping would not happen, did happen.
##Vote: kushm4sta Ok a "change of heart" changes his views on kush and scumhunting. I can understand changing his view on kush. However, he had been adamant that people push cases on people other than kush all day. Yet, it wasn't worth it anymore. Then, he says in the same post he doesn't like how those 4 got away with not posting? Why didn't he call them out if he wanted to scumhunt so bad? Why is he leaving the job up to others and just calling out people he wants to be looked at? + Show Spoiler +On September 29 2012 21:28 Alsn wrote: By the way, just to clarify about my vote.
I realised that my entire vote count argument falls apart if there's no compelling reason to believe kush to be town, and asking myself the following question kinda shocked me: "What has kush done for town?"
I couldn't find an answer to that question, no matter how hard I looked. As such, I can't not vote for him. The wording in the last statement is weird. It implies that he was looking for reasons to not vote kush. + Show Spoiler +On September 29 2012 21:31 Alsn wrote: Seriously, I need a break from this as I'm feeling indecisive as shit at the moment while I woke up brimming with confidence that I would find some scum today. I'll be checking in on the thread all the way until lynch, so I'll reply if you need me to, but I don't think I'll be making any monster posts. Here he admits he did not scumhunt. He says he is indecisive. + Show Spoiler +On September 30 2012 04:39 Alsn wrote:Show nested quote +On September 30 2012 03:00 Z-BosoN wrote: I urge everyone to read this exchange. My lines are in red. He still feels the need to use the same elements he did initially: My case is OMGUS, it's weak, it's bad, etc. This post comes off to me as cornered scum trying to squirm his way out, but that could be just me tunneling him hard. Everyone please take the time to read and see if you agree with me.
I actually find some of your arguments very compelling. I agree that his 180 on Djodref looks scummy, but I don't agree with your original argument that him making that case on both you and Djodref is inherently scummy just because the cases are similar. I however think that your pressuring has yielded fruit. I happen to agree that your initial feud with debears was on pretty shaky grounds, which is why I spoke out against you at that point. It may just have been me misinterpreting your tone/intentions, but nevertheless I feel most of the early-game arguments debears put forward were relatively sound, and you weren't necessarily in the right for attacking them. His responses do seem convoluted though. To be fair, I think his "scum slip"(the one where he all but proclaimed Djod town) is pretty much the exact same type of slip that kush committed. Basically, directly suggesting that he should pm marv could be seen as him knowing djod's alignment. But I think just as with the kush slip, it's definitely not 100%. It could be a typo, he could have just been lazy and not wanted to say marv/hapa, there could be many different reasons. Anything he says himself probably won't sway anyone though. I'm actually surprised there hasn't been more of an outcry about it. So to sum up, I disagree that debears is clearly wrong for saying that your initial case was weak, however, I feel like he has some pretty scummy explanations for some of his actions, particularly wrt Djodref. I think your case has gone from pretty nit picky to a rather strong case. So I think I'll withdraw my FoS on you, your explanation for your behaviour concerning SDM earlier was satisfactory, and I will probably have to go through your case against him at least one more time before I can be sure, but it seems to be pretty solid to me. I would like to see some input from the less active players with regards to the entire debears/boson debate. Because currently I'm having pretty much null reads on all of the following: Omniscient, RemedySC, Corrosion, Djodref(someone else remind me if there's anyone I've missed please). A few of them have posted slightly scummy or slightly town, but either way it's very difficult for me to make up my mind one way or the other right now. If we assume that kush wasn't trolling us with the "I'm red" part, then we have quite some time before we ever need to worry about mylo/lylo, but I'd still like for us to get there without either being forced to lynch 4 null-reading lurkers, or to have them left in the game at that stage. Here is another worthless post. His whole point is "Z-bo's case may have validity". Then he gives us some reads, except they are 4 null reads. No scum hunting. Not any actual contribution. + Show Spoiler +On September 30 2012 19:18 Alsn wrote:Show nested quote +On September 30 2012 18:50 DarthPunk wrote:On September 30 2012 18:10 Alsn wrote: Hi, just woke up, skimmed through the last couple of pages.
Not sure if you even want to know, but at the time of, as you say, act III - IV, I had a gut feeling that things were going way too easy for kush to be scum, and that made me doubt the motivations of DarthPunk, as well as the fact that I had found you pretty scummy from the day before. When I was going to make a case against either of you however, I only found the few questions I asked DP about, but which I then later found out was just him being rightfully(I thought he was out to get me for no apparent reason) suspicious of me.
Then as I went through your filter, you started to make more and more sense, just like I and everyone else has pointed out, your case against debears now has merit, which pretty much meant that I just didn't find you as scummy as I thought you would be. So yea, the two scum reads that I didn't actually have, weren't actually scummy. Trying to make a case against someone for no reason seemed like inherently anti-town, so I just gave up when I thought about just why I thought kush was town, what had he done that helped town? While I imagine being a victim like that would be pretty harsh, nothing he had done had tried to show that he really was a victim, so I went along with the lynch. I had to vote for someone.
That being said, this discussion helps no one, If you think I'm scummy, go ahead and think so, I won't be lynched for another 2,5 days either way so I'll have tons of time to make myself useful. Like I said to kush, actions speak louder than words, I don't expect anyone to judge me in any other way. I thought you had a town read on me? But after that I am one of your scum reads and you try to build a case on me? That sort of doesn't match up with the afore mentioned town read. Now you're just misunderstanding me, I had a gut scum read on you due to me feeling unjustifiably attacked. I didn't want to say that out loud while I was questioning you at the time. But like I explained when I examined your filter as well as when you replied to me, things became much clearer and thus I re-evaluated you. Ah finally, he actually states a scum read. However, earlier he said he wanted to push a lynch for a top scum read. He didn't do that. A FOS isn't pushing a lynch. He never took a decisive "you're scum" stance day 1. Alsn's whole day 1 was centered on kush being town, and mediating the conflict between me and Z-Bo. Where was the scumhunting? Where was the real contribution that he promised? -----after just reading Alsn's big post---------- @AlsnHowever, 1) My posting to defend myself day 1 was because I thought (and still do) that most of Z-Boson's case is dumb and confirmation bias (which you agree with me about according to your post. 2) I chose Z-Boson because they way he FOS'd me back was OMGUS to me. Djo is a noob. Z-Boson isn't. Z-Boson would know better to first, calll out a player for no reason early on and overstate that player's views. And two, FOS me with shitty reasoning. 3) My main problem with Z-Boson is that he was looking only at mafia motivations in his post (confirmation bias if he is town, if he is scum, trying to frame someone). Also, his association case about modwarnings was flat out unreasonable and follows WIFOM. Also, he was trying way too hard to lobby his case against me. It seems the only real part of his argument that everyone agrees with is the pm marv post I addressed to Djo, which I have done my best to explain. I don't see his case as strong. Yet, he feels its the mother of all cases, calling it a "shitbomb" on me earlier. How can a townie be so sure of himself besides confirmation bias? That said, Z-Boson has made a case against you which I agree with. He came off more reasonable today with the questions he asked me. For that, I do not have such a strong stance on him at this moment. However, you seem a little bit too obsessed with our argument. Your post is in essence a giant summary of what happened. You state a scumread on me, which is improvement. However, I don't feel your scumhunting is original. Your reasoning for FOS on me is problematic. I believe I have already been called out for posting defensively. Also if "This all leads me to believe Z-BosoN is suffering from massive confirmation bias", as I stated, why wouldn't I defend myself extensively? I have been called out by Z-Bo for inconsistency. Read above this for some reasoning on choosing one over the other. And finally, you don't see my cases pointing out Z-Boson as scummy, yet you agree my cases say reasonable things? "Here he addresses debears final post, a post which like I just pointed out says reasonable things." Just because you think someone's case about someone else being scum isn't correct, if the case is reasonable, that shouldn't make you think that the accuser is scum That reasoning doesn't make sense, based on your own conclusions.
In summary, I was suspicious of Alsn 7 hours before you make your case on him, when he was not a point of discussion. My case has valid points about his lack of scumhunting, which your case didn't address. Also, I chose to do the corrosion case first since you specifically asked me a question about corrosion (which incidentally led me to rereading alsn's filter and saying, wow, he's doing scummy things).
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I'm leaving my vote on you, and that's final. I'll try and figure out who scum number two is before I get lynched, but I don't think I will be able to.
I see four guys who have done suspicious things d2 among the lurking crowd who have voted and/or said they would vote for both of us by rehashing the active's players or using dumb reasoning.
Yet, you don't see any scummy conclusions besides me? And others have noticed scummy things about the other players. SDM about Djo, Z-Bo about Stutters....you are failing to acknowledge this. Besides, we are close to lynch deadline. Why would they bring up cases out of left field and pursue them at this point when they believe they have 2 scum on their hands?
And about math's, how exactly did you settle on 40%. You said last game you didn't like it when people just state "he's __% mafia" yet you did the same. That was the main point on that argument.
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Debears lack of comments about Shady's case on me also supports this theory, because right now the pressure on him has decreased, it's in his best interest right now to make it seem like his story is consistent, and keeping up pressure on me since he made a massive case against me is probably his best bet.
Why would I bang a replacement? He made a contribution to his meta read on you with his experience from previous games that he was in. It's not like he came in being unreasonable. To accuse him of scum through only corrosion's actions is dumb.
Notice this on Darth
On September 30 2012 10:23 DarthPunk wrote: Can anyone guess who my 3 suspects are? GOGO.
On September 30 2012 10:41 DarthPunk wrote:Show nested quote +On September 30 2012 10:37 debears wrote: @DP
Alsn and Corrosion are your other two im betting.
I'm making a case on both, with corrosion first. 1/2
Notice how I was already in the process of making cases on you and corrosion before Darth even confirmed that he was suspicious of one of you.
Now for Z-Bo
Here is his original case on you. Look at the timestamp. No mention of you not scumhunting.
+ Show Spoiler +On September 30 2012 17:13 Z-BosoN wrote:So I woke up a couple of hours earlier than I should have. Instead of going back to sleep, I decide to go read some filters. Sometimes I hate this game rofl. Anyways, I will agree with one thing DP said, alsn is scummy as shit. Look at his stance on kush throughout the thread. Brief timeline here: ACT I - Kush. If you are scummy like last game, I will lynch you no matter what.+ Show Spoiler +On September 28 2012 16:54 Alsn wrote:Hey everyone, just woke up and was about to check when the game was supposed to start. Imagine my surprise when it's already started! Although looking closely the game started as I went to sleep, so I wouldn't have been able to participate until now either way. So in any case, I'm Alsn, I like logic. My previous mafia games so far amount to a single one, a game where I was NKd N1 as Vanilla Townie. My filter for that game can be found here. Other than that I have only ever played SC2 Mafia in any significant amounts(a game while using the same core rules, plays extremely different due to the time constraints and limits on discussion). If you are interested, I was also active in the /obs QT discussion of NMMXXVII which can be found here. So, with that out of the way, I read the first few posts and saw that this game continues the trend of lurker policy lynching. I agree that there needs to be pressure on scum to actually post, since without scum posts to analyse all the scumhunting in the world will almost certainly only turn up townies(due to lurkers generally being null reads). That said, I followed Tl Mafia LVII wherein there was a lot of discussion about lynching "trolly meta" players and I would like to take that one step further. Kush, while I realize that you have a posting style which by its nature is very confrontational and inflammatory, I feel that unless you actually provide some concrete analysis without using almost purely OMGUS argumentation that it is in town's best interest to just straight up lynch you right away. Simply put, unless your cases actually provide substance then I think you will just be a late game liability for town, mostly giving everyone a null read and potentially forcing people to make a town or scum read on you without having much of an idea what you are. So to sum up, kush, I can definitely forgive you for your "style" of posting but I will not under any circumstance forgive you for posting shitty content, just like I will not forgive anyone else for doing so either. Understand that I'm not singling you out as a target, I'm using your history as an example for what I consider scummy play. Now, on to actually read the thread and see if I can respond to something. ACT II - It is as we feared. Kush has defiled us all. FOS Kush+ Show Spoiler +On September 28 2012 17:56 Alsn wrote:Wow, upon reading the thread I realise that kush has been following the exact pattern I just now specified to be the way not to play if he wanted to absolve himself in my eyes. In fact, I could go back to my initial posts to him in NMMXXV saying almost the exact same thing. As such, I think I have no choice but to cast a: FoS kushm4stakush, in order for me to let up, I want you to stop it with your ridiculous knee-jerk play and actually point out why you think other people are scummy as opposed to why you yourself is so obviously town. While the following idiom is quite ironic in a forum game, actions speak louder than words and you defending yourself is just that, meaningless words. Start proving to everyone that you are concerned with finding scum instead of worrying about your silly streak. That being said, I think everyone else is jumping the gun here, kush is an extremely easy target to pick on, especially since he almost never seems to think before he posts. The scumslip that Darth and others pointed out can definitely be seen as damning. However, I am not inclined to agree with the following post from Darth: Show nested quote +On September 28 2012 13:46 DarthPunk wrote:I am not flaming Kush. I am legitimately scum hunting. The contrast in this situation, to the one with shiao, are so stark that there is no point even bringing it up. You will know when I am flaming when you see it, and even then it is not really that big a scum tell. I can tell the difference between Scummy town and actual scum, and it is not 'illogical' to be able to do this. Kush right now is not scummy town. He has slipped HUGELY. He is conforming to his previous scum meta. Seriously...
There is no explanation for his town read on me. The only reason he would say that is if he was scum. This last part seems to overly simplify the matter to me. The only reason? I myself can see a few reasons, but I would like kush to reply himself before I comment further as I don't want to give him an easy out. I can state for the record that unless kush shapes up considerably, I'm all in favour of lynching him. Simply because him playing like his normal self would be a liability for town later on due to his inclination to just defend himself over hunting scum. However, I definitely want to give him the benefit of the doubt and allow him to actually try and show that he has town's best interest in mind. So until then, while I definitely would like everyone to share their reads on kush so far, that is not enough for D1. We need to start exploring different possibilities because if we decide to lynch kush and he flips green, spending all of D1 talking about him will put us back at square one minus two townies. I'll make another post within an hour or two on another topic as I think I've made myself perfectly clear on where I stand on kush, but right now I need breakfast. ACT III - DarthPunk, you are going overboard on kush. I find you using ridiculous logic. How are you so sure of this and that? Hm.... I'll go with you being townie, ya know, for throwing yourself out there.+ Show Spoiler +On September 28 2012 22:03 Alsn wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2012 21:38 DarthPunk wrote:On September 28 2012 21:31 Alsn wrote: he has pointed out that he doesn't agree with your tunneling of kush. I find it astonishing that you 'interpret' debears' post that way in context of your view of Z-Boson. The way in which you paraphrase things whilst obscuring the truth/ put your own angle on things has me very concerned. Astonishing how? I would like you to explain what's so amazingly pro-town about tunneling kush from the very beginning. I find the risks of that approach to be very high from a town perspective. There are two scenarios: A) He flips green, and unless he during the day completely changed his character we will have almost no way of distinguishing who among the people who pushed for his lynch were scum and who were town. B) He flips scum, at this point I just don't find that likely enough to risk A) happening. That fact alone is enough for me to see that post of debears as entirely reasonable, since both of you at the time were basically calling out kush for every single post he was making(for good reason, but not if that's the only thing you are doing). + Show Spoiler +On September 29 2012 00:24 Alsn wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2012 22:39 DarthPunk wrote:On September 28 2012 22:03 Alsn wrote:On September 28 2012 21:38 DarthPunk wrote:On September 28 2012 21:31 Alsn wrote: he has pointed out that he doesn't agree with your tunneling of kush. I find it astonishing that you 'interpret' debears' post that way in context of your view of Z-Boson. The way in which you paraphrase things whilst obscuring the truth/ put your own angle on things has me very concerned. Astonishing how? I would like you to explain what's so amazingly pro-town about tunneling kush from the very beginning. I find the risks of that approach to be very high from a town perspective. There are two scenarios: A) He flips green, and unless he during the day completely changed his character we will have almost no way of distinguishing who among the people who pushed for his lynch were scum and who were town. B) He flips scum, at this point I just don't find that likely enough to risk A) happening. That fact alone is enough for me to see that post of debears as entirely reasonable, since both of you at the time were basically calling out kush for every single post he was making(for good reason, but not if that's the only thing you are doing). I was not just looking at Kush. I was looking at the reactions to my case on kush also, Namely debears. As far as I am concerned Kush is scum and therefore it is best for town to lynch him. I like to focus on one thing at a time. Especially when he is incredibly scummy and has SCUM SLIPPED It is a common scum hunting technique and has been recommended in Several postgames. Obviously It was not to the exclusion of all others because I am now looking at you and debears. If there was nothing to go on I would have changed tac. Turns out he is scum. So I try and get him lynched. Savvy? On September 28 2012 22:03 Alsn wrote: That fact alone is enough for me to see that post of debears as entirely reasonable, since both of you at the time were basically calling out kush for every single post he was making(for good reason, but not if that's the only thing you are doing). So you don't find Kush likely to flip scum? good to know. Z -Boson hardly called out kush. I made a case. I was not tunnelling. (but I see that is the misconception you are trying to present) If by some miracle he flips green there is still a lot of info to go off. Your premise iswrong and thus your conclusions are wrong. I was calling out Kush for good reason? and at the same time Debears was entirely reasonable in shutting that down? ##FoS ALSN Given the evidence so far no, I don't, and frankly I don't see why that's so hard to believe. Given his history, it should be easy to see for anyone that while he has different town and scum metas(as pointed out by Hapahauli in the obs QT of NMMXVII), his comments so far this game is entirely in line with the way he usually posts during D1. Basically just writing up whatever is on his mind. That to me doesn't really increase or decrease the chances of him flipping either way(but the setup of the game says all else being equal, 75% of the players are green, 25% are scum) Yes, you called him out for good reason because his arguments(like so many times before this game) make little to no sense. But right now the only thing I really agree actually points to him being scum is what you call his scum slip. I just do not agree with you of just how damning that statement is. The first thing that sprang to mind when I saw you quoting that was simply that townie was an odd word to use, why not use player? But a confirmed scum slip? Come on, it's not like he said something that is entirely outside the realm of possibility for a town player to say. "Townie" wouldn't be the word I'd use, but I just can't see it as that obvious a scum slip. I'll accept that you are not necessarily wrong for thinking so however. Given that there are no other developments then sure, I'll admit that there's at least a higher chance of kush being scum than a random lurker being scum. But I would really like it if we could at least try to get better odds than that. Best case scenario for me would be actually having everyone talk, present cases and opinions and if no one else presents themselves as scummy, then and only then will I roll the dice on kush. Remember, there are 3 scum, not only one. Who knows, if he's scum as you say, he might look even scummier by lynch time. The case being what it is with kush, I can see now that what you were doing wasn't tunneling per se. However, I think you are doing the very thing you are accusing me of doing where you say debears was trying to "shut down" the case against kush. Like I've said several times now, that's not at all how I interpreted it, only that we shouldn't limit ourselves to a single discussion topic which at the time I felt debears was trying to suggest. Something that I happen to agree with. Show nested quote +On September 28 2012 22:39 DarthPunk wrote:I made a case. I was not tunnelling. (but I see that is the misconception you are trying to present) If by some miracle he flips green there is still a lot of info to go off. Your premise iswrong and thus your conclusions are wrong. This statement makes little sense to me. You say you were not tunneling, which I can now appreciate as probably true, but up until recently was not clear at all to me(and probably not to anyone else either). You had made quite a lot of posts in a row with kush as the only topic, as well as trying to convince others in the thread that he absolutely, 100%, no doubt whatsoever must be scum. I didn't find it unreasonable that someone would point that fact out to you. My "premise" was simply that if I find an argument reasonable, someone else trying to poke holes in that argument might not have the same motivations as myself, thus they are suspicious. The bolded line is ridiculous however, especially in context with the sentence before it. What makes you so sure that we would have "a lot of info to go off" in the case of everyone tunneling kush and us lynching him? My A) vs. B) scenario that you are referring to was dependent on the hypothetical scenario of everyone tunneling kush(which I already explained seemed to be where things were going at the time). I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and say that you misunderstood what I was trying to say instead of deliberately using a red herring to try and discredit me. With that in mind, based on your willingness to put yourself out there, I have a slight town read on you. INTERLUDE --- kush goes ape shit. Ravages town with his treachery. Denies every chance he has to be saved, and wails incessantly. The ACT I prophecy was correct. However... ACT IV - It is as I feared. Everyone is voting for kush with little discussion. I dislike this lynch. I'm ok with lynching kush, but I wanna lynch my biggest scum read. You know, the one I don't have. Also, I think that scum wouldn't just go ahead and bus. You know, they would probably most likely trying to find another solution other than bussing. You know, like the thing I'm trying to do right now.+ Show Spoiler +On September 29 2012 18:17 Alsn wrote: First, I'd like to start things with stating so far D1 has pretty much lived up to my exact nightmare scenario that I speculated about when arguing with DP yesterday. Everyone is voting kush with only very little discussion about any other topic(mainly, the debears-boson exchange).
Looking at the vote count, the last official count says 7, and now corrosion added his vote for a total of 8. With myself that would be 9, the exact number of town in this game. From my point of view, unless kushm4sta, Djodref and Lesrah are the 3 scum, there are scum pushing this lynch.
Given that, I'm really starting to dislike this lynch. I agree however that kush has been mostly concerned with defending himself against perceived injustice rather than actually trying to hunt scum, this still does not convince me that he is scum. Lynching scum with an overwhelming majority D1 just seems like way too improbably. Sure, if we had to fight tooth and nail to get 7 votes, I might buy it, but that's not the case. It seems to me there must be scum sheeping onto this lynch.
Like I've stated before I can go along with the kush lynch, but I'd rather try and lynch my top scum read at this point and with the current developments, I see a kush lynch more as a last resort than my main scum read. Unfortunately, this argument is only available to people who have yet to vote and are town, as well as to scum since other than myself only scum are aware of my alignment. For everyone else, the "unless a, b and c are scum" argument will include me.
My argument is at least enough to convince myself, so I'll be scouring the thread for the next couple of hours to see if my "gut scum reads" so far have any merit and if so push that/those case(s) instead. If it turns out that they are going nowhere, I will vote kush. But I still feel we have enough time to at least have a discussion on the topic of "just wtf is going on here?!". On September 29 2012 18:28 Alsn wrote: A quick addendum, I'm aware that scum pushing the lynch does not exonerate kush since they could be bussing him. However, given the assumption that kush is scum and there are active scum among the voters, I just find it more likely that they would try and find another solution than bussing, especially since it's D1. That's my main reason for not being convinced that kush is scum. ACT V - The resolve. I've had a vision. It is inevitable, kush must be lynched. I have realized the errors of my ways and it is imperative that kush is lynched.+ Show Spoiler +On September 29 2012 21:15 Alsn wrote: I've been doing some soul searching and I'm starting to agree that it's not worth it to try and push any other cases right now.
Mostly because my entire premise was that I was thinking it to be unlikely for kush to be scum. I realise that after trying to put into words why I think that is so, I have nothing other than the fact that I "feel" him to be town, which is a really stupid reason for absolving him. I thought I could back it up by saying he's been pressured to hard, there's no way he's responsible for not scum hunting. But in the end, I can't find a logical reason to forgive him if I exclude my own gut feeling from the equation.
I think now that my best option is to hold on to whatever small reads I have(because while I have some suspicions, I don't think they are rock solid) until after the lynch is over. Because at least then, we will have more information.
So for now, although my gut is screaming at me, I'll commit to voting for kush, mostly because most of what I said about BosoN has returned somewhat satisfactory answers, I really don't like the way a lot of people got away with not basically posting anything at all(I'm looking at you, Djodref, corrosion, Omniscient, RemedySC). I think that's probably what irks me the most, the thing I was most hoping would not happen, did happen.
##Vote: kushm4sta sup scum? anyone?
Now for his post where he mentions you not scumhunting. Look at the timestamp
+ Show Spoiler +On October 01 2012 13:37 Z-BosoN wrote:Show nested quote +On October 01 2012 03:47 Alsn wrote:Disclaimer!+ Show Spoiler + My original post included the full spoilered quotes of their conversations. Unfortunately, TL got mad at me and said something wussy about a 100000 character post limit, pfah. For that reason, sourcing of my statements are done as links. Disclaimer!So, like I said before, I'm working under the theory that debears and Z-BosoN are either both town, or only one of them is scum. I think this because they both committed to attacking each other very early on in the game, even before it was obvious that kush was going to be lynched. They also did not stop doing this just because kush was getting lynched, which suggests to me that either both of them are convinced that it's important that people pay attention to their case, or that one of them is and the other one is just trying to defend himself. I don't see how eliminating the possibility of us both being scum is helpful right now, unless you want to push a lynch of either of us.More importantly, if both of them were scum they would be drawing attention to themselves at the same time that their final teammate was getting torn to shreds, which I can not believe to be true. With that in mind I decided to look at their feud once again to see if there were any tells that one of them was more scummy than the other. First, the entire thing begins with Z-BosoN in my view completely misrepresenting what SDM said in order to throw a FoS on debears. This as some kind of response to debears initial suspicions of Z-BosoN found here. At this point I believe that was just Z-BosoN misreading SDM, and thus finding scumminess where there was none. But it leads to a lot of discussion and material for us to analyze, so that's all well and good, I'm afraid I might have misrepresented it at the time though, not taking the time to look at what happened properly in context. Debears then responds with this post where he says SDM's opinions on lurker policy was there for anyone to see a good 2 hours before Z-BosoN misrepresented him, and also that he thought Z-BosoN was being inconsistent himself(which he was and later admits to). Again, this is merely meant to illustrate that Z-BosoN's original case on debears was in fact weak. Debears should definitely not be considered scummy based on that alone. Then we have the following post where debears again very calmly and reasonably explains to Z-BosoN that he considers his case/FoS to be weak and OMGUS. I agree with that. So far, I'm finding myself exactly on the same side of the argument as I did then. Z-BosoN was clearly out of line in criticising debears. I don't think I'm entirely at fault for thinking he was "trying to shut him up" at around that time. This is also where I have joined the debate, making Z-BosoN reply to my own comments in between their feud, I think my original case has been analyzed to death though, so I won't mention it further. At this point both of them start to also focus on kush since this is around the time when DarthPunk had made his case against kush's behaviour and his slip. Z-BosoN had responded earlier to DP saying he isn't sold on it being a scum slip, but mostly just not liking the way kush was acting. (Source)Z-BosoN then posts his first major case against debears. In it, he attacks debears for perceived inconsistencies but looking at it closely, I find that most of the arguments Z-BosoN put forward are pretty weak. Mostly due to the fact that I found the posts that Z-BosoN are referencing in his case to be very reasonable and without any obvious scum motivation. Debears also addresses this case later on. Oh? Right. I'll save this for later.Now the kush bandwagon is in full swing, both players ask kush to shape up at different stages, Z-BosoN initially, then debears when he gets back into the thread after a 5 hour gap. I don't know if this gap is significant as it did happen during debears' primetime. Which means he probably wasn't asleep but I'm unwilling to draw any conclusions at this time simply because I have no proof one way or the other. I can't find any other reason for their posting about kush at this stage other than the fact that at this point, kush was a highly uncontroversial target, most active players in the thread at this stage are all imploring kush to shape up if he is town and for good reason. Useless paragraph. Yes he was controversial, this was AFTER DP mega-power pushed for kush. That does not mean that everyone wanted him dead.Eventually, debears responds to Z-BosoN's case against him in the following post. In this post(it and Z-BosoN's eventual response are both massive, every time I read them I find out more things that are damning/exonerating about the two of them) wtf are you talking about?he again actually makes a lot of sense to me, with the major thing I don't really buy being his 180 on Djodref. That was one of the arguments I had presented on my case against him, which you just happened to say it was weak!!!Especially since I don't really consider Djodref to have posted in a way that would suggest to me that he should be excused. In my mind all of the lurky players are still somewhat suspicious, and has been from the start, at the very best they are null reads, just dropping a line about coaches and then dropping the matter seems scummy to me. Use. Less.Also, I find the fact that debears has pretty much made no comments about anyone other than Z-BosoN and kush once the wagon was started. For all his talk about not tunnelling kush, he sure seems to be tunnelling pretty hard. Or at the very least, seems intent on defending himself more than anything else. His post with regards to the lurkers came only once Z-BosoN specifically asked him to do so. He did promise a case against me however, so I guess I'll start popping the popcorn. Finally I would like to address Z-BosoN's reply to debears final defense if I can call it that. (clicky) Here he addresses debears final post, a post which like I just pointed out says reasonable things. This all leads me to believe Z-BosoN is suffering from massive confirmation bias. He has for some reason decided that debears is scum a long time ago, and now every single argument debears makes is scummy to him. I'm inclined to think Z-BosoN is town because of this, confirmation bias isn't something scum would suffer from, since they don't need to believe anything, they know. WhaaaAAaaaAaaAaAatT? Ok, this post has so much crap in it that Ima stop right here and just answer everything at once. It is however not very helpful, because even if debears is scum, him defending himself against what I consider to be unjustified criticism is hardly something he can be blamed for. I would however like to see him post more about other players than Z-BosoN, and hopefully he will have time to do so now since Z-BosoN has at least seemingly decided to let things rest for a while, which I think can only be good for us. So to end this, I would like to put a FoS on debears not based on Z-BosoN's case, but based on the following points, as hinted at above. - debears' has mainly used his posting to defend himself. This is not unreasonable on its own, especially since I myself have pointed out that he was unjustifiably attacked at some points.
- His inconsistency with regards to djodref and Z-BosoN. Neither of them really had convincing arguments to counter his initial suspicions of them, yet he went after only Z-BosoN while forgiving Djodref. I'm thinking he might have pounced on Z-BosoN's willingness to post using rushed statements along with taking the chance of free-riding on my own suspicions that I had at the time.
- His cases against Z-BosoN have not really pointed out all that much scumminess in my mind. They have just been about refuting Z-BosoN's attacks. So I must then conclude that his willingness to lynch Z-BosoN over kush is either scum motivated or some kind of involuntary OMGUS.
So to sum this up, I'm thinking that Z-BosoN is town, his play is just too emotional and full of confirmation bias to me to suggest anything else and I do not think that he would or even could fake that. Debears might be scum, but I don't think we have enough proof to say that he is scummy enough to lynch D2, not yet anyway. In my mind he still has a path to redemption and I think we should at least give him that possibility as I'm not convinced that they can't both be town. Given that, my town reads right now amount to DarthPunk for obvious reason, Z-BosoN as stated above and SDM(mostly a feel read right now, but he has made sense from what I've seen so far) and I'm leaning slightly scummy on debears. That being said, I will probably spend the next couple of days focusing on the players that I have not mentioned in this thread. Mostly because at this point, I consider the debears vs Z-BosoN case closed unless something earth shattering happens. This was one massively deluded post. I couldn't have been any clearer on my case against debears. My case presented two main arguments, and one supporting argument that includes a bunch of shit that can feasibly come from a scum. Argument 1) His stance on kush after a direct FOS. Argument 2) His 180 on Djoref. I have made these both very clear in my case. You are acting as if I didn't bring up his 180 on Djoref. Your only "original" argument that could arguably mean something includes him being defensive. That's actually the one thing he has going for him, he's defended himself and still managed to make cases, more cases than you. I started answering this post topic by topic but quickly figured out that it had so much uselessness, so much pointlessness, and so much gibberish that I simply couldn't continue answering straight up. I get emotional when I feel someone is talking too much crap, but that does not automatically make my entire case based on emotion. In this post you've managed to: a) give me a town read based on my "emotion" and "confirmation bias" while throwing my case to shit and then actually using one of it's main arguments. b) make a weaker case against debears, in what seems to be a weakass attempt to justify your vote c) not defend yourself against one certain post I made. Are you gonna say that it's confirmation biased too? This post reeks of mafia mentality. Why? You accuse me of making weak cases based on emotion and confirmation bias. You feel the need to say that this makes me townie. You are trying to discredit me, right after I've made an entire case against you.But you don't want to make it look like you are defending a high priority target like debears, so you go ahead and try to find some other things you can say against him so it can seem like you are genuinely after him. Right afterwards you try an AtE (appeal to emotion). Show nested quote +On October 01 2012 03:55 Alsn wrote: And that took me just about 6 hours. In the end the only thing I managed to conclude was that I think we need more information. Hopefully I can find something more conclusive during the next couple of days, assuming I don't get NKd but I find that hard to believe right now.
I'll just end with the fact that I think we definitely need to focus on the people who have posted very little because I suspect there are scum to be found there. I'm just a little shocked by how little scumminess I'm reading so far but that probably just means that the people I've been focusing on aren't scum, but we'll see. I'll be checking in for another couple of hours on and off but nothing major before I sleep. Basically crying about your pro-town efforts, which, ultimately, surmount to zero contribution. Also, in this post, you try to divert attention from the huge wall you've just posted, saying we should target other people who have not posted more. That is not town mentality. It shows you value very little your actually case about debears, and that you are not willing to take a stance. corrosionShow nested quote +On October 01 2012 04:59 corrosion wrote: I had a look at the cases Z-boson and Debears made against me. I thought both looked messy. I still do. Now Boson didn't jump on my post immediately, and others (Darth?)say his posting fits his town meta, so I'm going to assume that his motivation was scum hunting for now. Debears case is a huge wall of text without much actual content. I think it's suspicious. Is he trying to clutter up the thread and make chaos? I can see mafia motivation behind this. I did not make a case against you. Getting defensive? @DarthPunk I'm getting fairly busy this week, but there is one more aspect from debears that I've noticed but haven't gone over yet. His whole relation with kush is also very, very shaky. I have to go sleep, but please go control+F kush on debears filter and see what you can come up with, to see if you reach the same observations as I. At the moment, refer to my above post, Alsn is coming off as insanely scummy. He's trying very hard, it must be. In my mind I've come up with a debears/Alsn scumteam, and from what I've gathered, the latest posts give sense to this. I don't think Djodref is scum, or at least he hasn't shown it yet. He'd make a terrible day 2 lynch, imo. I still have to think whos a better day2 lynch, whether it's debears or Alsn. Gonna go sleep, gnight all.
Now for my case about you not scumhunting. Look at the timestamp.
+ Show Spoiler +On October 01 2012 05:06 debears wrote:So now it's time for my case on Alsn. Z-Bo has posted a good case. Now, I want to add onto a key element that I feel Z-bo missed: Alsn's scumhunting (or lack thereof). Show nested quote +On September 22 2012 06:53 Alsn wrote:I think it's high time to try and get myself NK'd again. /in Alsn's first post before the game. Everyone, if you do not know the depth of Alsn's focus and intelligence (or at least what it seems like to me) and stubborness, look at his posts from pregame and the obs qt from last game. If he was town, I would be sure that he would put his skills to work and actually attempt to be nked. Alright, on to the posts since the start of the game. + Show Spoiler +On September 28 2012 17:56 Alsn wrote:Wow, upon reading the thread I realise that kush has been following the exact pattern I just now specified to be the way not to play if he wanted to absolve himself in my eyes. In fact, I could go back to my initial posts to him in NMMXXV saying almost the exact same thing. As such, I think I have no choice but to cast a: FoS kushm4stakush, in order for me to let up, I want you to stop it with your ridiculous knee-jerk play and actually point out why you think other people are scummy as opposed to why you yourself is so obviously town. While the following idiom is quite ironic in a forum game, actions speak louder than words and you defending yourself is just that, meaningless words. Start proving to everyone that you are concerned with finding scum instead of worrying about your silly streak. That being said, I think everyone else is jumping the gun here, kush is an extremely easy target to pick on, especially since he almost never seems to think before he posts. The scumslip that Darth and others pointed out can definitely be seen as damning. However, I am not inclined to agree with the following post from Darth: Show nested quote +On September 28 2012 13:46 DarthPunk wrote:I am not flaming Kush. I am legitimately scum hunting. The contrast in this situation, to the one with shiao, are so stark that there is no point even bringing it up. You will know when I am flaming when you see it, and even then it is not really that big a scum tell. I can tell the difference between Scummy town and actual scum, and it is not 'illogical' to be able to do this. Kush right now is not scummy town. He has slipped HUGELY. He is conforming to his previous scum meta. Seriously...
There is no explanation for his town read on me. The only reason he would say that is if he was scum. This last part seems to overly simplify the matter to me. The only reason? I myself can see a few reasons, but I would like kush to reply himself before I comment further as I don't want to give him an easy out. I can state for the record that unless kush shapes up considerably, I'm all in favour of lynching him. Simply because him playing like his normal self would be a liability for town later on due to his inclination to just defend himself over hunting scum. However, I definitely want to give him the benefit of the doubt and allow him to actually try and show that he has town's best interest in mind. So until then, while I definitely would like everyone to share their reads on kush so far, that is not enough for D1. We need to start exploring different possibilities because if we decide to lynch kush and he flips green, spending all of D1 talking about him will put us back at square one minus two townies. I'll make another post within an hour or two on another topic as I think I've made myself perfectly clear on where I stand on kush, but right now I need breakfast. His point is fair and I agreed upon it. Everyone focusing on one person day 1 is usually not good. However, his later actions did not really follow this statement. Show nested quote +On September 28 2012 21:11 Alsn wrote: Bleh, and now I realised that that's a pretty bad summary of what I wanted to say.
Summary of my case: I feel that Z-BosoN is attacking people for the sake of attacking them and in a way that seems to be discouraging healthy discussion. As pointed out by my argument he seems to want debears to just shut up and not share his thoughts.
Him attacking SDM for a post obviously made just as a "Hello, let's have a nice game" type of post before heading off to bed just reinforces this idea to me that he is accusing people for dubious reasons. His cases against Z-Bo and DP were the only scumhunting during d1. His initial problem with Z-Bo was a point already addressed by me in terms of the post at SDM. This post in itself isn't a big deal. However, he continues to keep the argument the same and becomes stuck on the idea. + Show Spoiler +On September 28 2012 21:31 Alsn wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2012 21:14 DarthPunk wrote:On September 28 2012 21:11 Alsn wrote: Bleh, and now I realised that that's a pretty bad summary of what I wanted to say.
Summary of my case: I feel that Z-BosoN is attacking people for the sake of attacking them and in a way that seems to be discouraging healthy discussion. As pointed out by my argument he seems to want debears to just shut up and not share his thoughts.
Him attacking SDM for a post obviously made just as a "Hello, let's have a nice game" type of post before heading off to bed just reinforces this idea to me that he is accusing people for dubious reasons. So. Why have you not FoS'd debears then? Uh, what? For what? I admit I haven't looked all that closely on debears posting since I mostly looked at his filter to try and figure out what Z-BosoN was referring to, but as far as I can see he has done three things so far, he has pointed out that he doesn't agree with your tunneling of kush. I find that a reasonable thing to say, although not overwhelmingly useful other than as a reminder to you that there are other players in this game(which you have obviously noted by now since you are questioning me!) His other two arguments of note are against Z-BosoN which is basically the conversation line which I base my case upon, as well as calling out Djodref as someone who posts a lot but says little. The latter also seems perfectly reasonable from where I'm standing and as you must have noticed, I'm against Z-BosoN on the subject of the former. This post was addressed to DP. Yet again, you are really just repeating points and just agreeing with my views on the matter and defending me. + Show Spoiler +On September 29 2012 00:24 Alsn wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2012 22:39 DarthPunk wrote:On September 28 2012 22:03 Alsn wrote:On September 28 2012 21:38 DarthPunk wrote:On September 28 2012 21:31 Alsn wrote: he has pointed out that he doesn't agree with your tunneling of kush. I find it astonishing that you 'interpret' debears' post that way in context of your view of Z-Boson. The way in which you paraphrase things whilst obscuring the truth/ put your own angle on things has me very concerned. Astonishing how? I would like you to explain what's so amazingly pro-town about tunneling kush from the very beginning. I find the risks of that approach to be very high from a town perspective. There are two scenarios: A) He flips green, and unless he during the day completely changed his character we will have almost no way of distinguishing who among the people who pushed for his lynch were scum and who were town. B) He flips scum, at this point I just don't find that likely enough to risk A) happening. That fact alone is enough for me to see that post of debears as entirely reasonable, since both of you at the time were basically calling out kush for every single post he was making(for good reason, but not if that's the only thing you are doing). I was not just looking at Kush. I was looking at the reactions to my case on kush also, Namely debears. As far as I am concerned Kush is scum and therefore it is best for town to lynch him. I like to focus on one thing at a time. Especially when he is incredibly scummy and has SCUM SLIPPED It is a common scum hunting technique and has been recommended in Several postgames. Obviously It was not to the exclusion of all others because I am now looking at you and debears. If there was nothing to go on I would have changed tac. Turns out he is scum. So I try and get him lynched. Savvy? On September 28 2012 22:03 Alsn wrote: That fact alone is enough for me to see that post of debears as entirely reasonable, since both of you at the time were basically calling out kush for every single post he was making(for good reason, but not if that's the only thing you are doing). So you don't find Kush likely to flip scum? good to know. Z -Boson hardly called out kush. I made a case. I was not tunnelling. (but I see that is the misconception you are trying to present) If by some miracle he flips green there is still a lot of info to go off. Your premise iswrong and thus your conclusions are wrong. I was calling out Kush for good reason? and at the same time Debears was entirely reasonable in shutting that down? ##FoS ALSN Given the evidence so far no, I don't, and frankly I don't see why that's so hard to believe. Given his history, it should be easy to see for anyone that while he has different town and scum metas(as pointed out by Hapahauli in the obs QT of NMMXVII), his comments so far this game is entirely in line with the way he usually posts during D1. Basically just writing up whatever is on his mind. That to me doesn't really increase or decrease the chances of him flipping either way(but the setup of the game says all else being equal, 75% of the players are green, 25% are scum) Yes, you called him out for good reason because his arguments(like so many times before this game) make little to no sense. But right now the only thing I really agree actually points to him being scum is what you call his scum slip. I just do not agree with you of just how damning that statement is. The first thing that sprang to mind when I saw you quoting that was simply that townie was an odd word to use, why not use player? But a confirmed scum slip? Come on, it's not like he said something that is entirely outside the realm of possibility for a town player to say. "Townie" wouldn't be the word I'd use, but I just can't see it as that obvious a scum slip. I'll accept that you are not necessarily wrong for thinking so however. Given that there are no other developments then sure, I'll admit that there's at least a higher chance of kush being scum than a random lurker being scum. But I would really like it if we could at least try to get better odds than that. Best case scenario for me would be actually having everyone talk, present cases and opinions and if no one else presents themselves as scummy, then and only then will I roll the dice on kush. Remember, there are 3 scum, not only one. Who knows, if he's scum as you say, he might look even scummier by lynch time.The case being what it is with kush, I can see now that what you were doing wasn't tunneling per se. However, I think you are doing the very thing you are accusing me of doing where you say debears was trying to "shut down" the case against kush. Like I've said several times now, that's not at all how I interpreted it, only that we shouldn't limit ourselves to a single discussion topic which at the time I felt debears was trying to suggest. Something that I happen to agree with. Show nested quote +On September 28 2012 22:39 DarthPunk wrote:I made a case. I was not tunnelling. (but I see that is the misconception you are trying to present) If by some miracle he flips green there is still a lot of info to go off. Your premise iswrong and thus your conclusions are wrong. This statement makes little sense to me. You say you were not tunneling, which I can now appreciate as probably true, but up until recently was not clear at all to me(and probably not to anyone else either). You had made quite a lot of posts in a row with kush as the only topic, as well as trying to convince others in the thread that he absolutely, 100%, no doubt whatsoever must be scum. I didn't find it unreasonable that someone would point that fact out to you. My "premise" was simply that if I find an argument reasonable, someone else trying to poke holes in that argument might not have the same motivations as myself, thus they are suspicious. The bolded line is ridiculous however, especially in context with the sentence before it. What makes you so sure that we would have "a lot of info to go off" in the case of everyone tunneling kush and us lynching him? My A) vs. B) scenario that you are referring to was dependent on the hypothetical scenario of everyone tunneling kush(which I already explained seemed to be where things were going at the time). I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and say that you misunderstood what I was trying to say instead of deliberately using a red herring to try and discredit me. With that in mind, based on your willingness to put yourself out there, I have a slight town read on you. Looking at this post, let's keep in mind what Alsn has done at this point. He has defended me. He has defended Kush, playing off scumslip. His only scumhunt cases are against darth and z-bo. His case against darth is based off darth's hard tunneling of kush. His case on z-bo is Z-bo's post on SDM and Z-Bo's post on me. Also, look at how he brings up "Everyone bring up a case and we'll look for other scummy people". Yet, he has failed to actually do the same. He now thinks Darth is town by suddenly changing his mind on the tunneling issue, even though he believes tunneling isn't good. " I would like you to explain what's so amazingly pro-town about tunneling kush from the very beginning. I find the risks of that approach to be very high from a town perspective." Now, I would like to move on to another topic with Alsn. He promises scumhunting and big posts. He wants everyone to make good cases about people other than kush. Yet, he doesn't actually follow through. + Show Spoiler +On September 29 2012 17:40 Alsn wrote:Just now caught up and saw this post. Really? I Said I'd be back about 12 hours before lynch, I've been reading the thread for an hour which makes that statement pretty much exactly right. But your own comment on the other hand is from before I even said I'd be waking up and checking the thread. You are not making yourself look any better than when I first called you out for grasping at straws. Will be posting some pretty substantial posts(I suspect, based on what I've read so far) within the next couple of hours. Here, he promises substantial posts. These are the next three posts. + Show Spoiler +On September 29 2012 18:17 Alsn wrote: First, I'd like to start things with stating so far D1 has pretty much lived up to my exact nightmare scenario that I speculated about when arguing with DP yesterday. Everyone is voting kush with only very little discussion about any other topic(mainly, the debears-boson exchange).
Looking at the vote count, the last official count says 7, and now corrosion added his vote for a total of 8. With myself that would be 9, the exact number of town in this game. From my point of view, unless kushm4sta, Djodref and Lesrah are the 3 scum, there are scum pushing this lynch.
Given that, I'm really starting to dislike this lynch. I agree however that kush has been mostly concerned with defending himself against perceived injustice rather than actually trying to hunt scum, this still does not convince me that he is scum. Lynching scum with an overwhelming majority D1 just seems like way too improbably. Sure, if we had to fight tooth and nail to get 7 votes, I might buy it, but that's not the case. It seems to me there must be scum sheeping onto this lynch.
Like I've stated before I can go along with the kush lynch, but I'd rather try and lynch my top scum read at this point and with the current developments, I see a kush lynch more as a last resort than my main scum read. Unfortunately, this argument is only available to people who have yet to vote and are town, as well as to scum since other than myself only scum are aware of my alignment. For everyone else, the "unless a, b and c are scum" argument will include me.
My argument is at least enough to convince myself, so I'll be scouring the thread for the next couple of hours to see if my "gut scum reads" so far have any merit and if so push that/those case(s) instead. If it turns out that they are going nowhere, I will vote kush. But I still feel we have enough time to at least have a discussion on the topic of "just wtf is going on here?!". This post is odd. His main points are 1)There are scum voting for kush (duh) 2) He doesn't like the kush lynch and 3) He is going to try to lynch his top scum read and "scour the thread" for others. There is nothing of substance in this post. He's just stating the obvious and promising more scumhunting. + Show Spoiler +On September 29 2012 18:28 Alsn wrote: A quick addendum, I'm aware that scum pushing the lynch does not exonerate kush since they could be bussing him. However, given the assumption that kush is scum and there are active scum among the voters, I just find it more likely that they would try and find another solution than bussing, especially since it's D1. That's my main reason for not being convinced that kush is scum. The next post is nothing better. Nothing substantial. Just speculation on what the scum would do. + Show Spoiler +On September 29 2012 18:29 Alsn wrote:Show nested quote +On September 29 2012 18:21 Djodref wrote: @Alsn
I also voted for Kush for your information Right, I missed that, thanks for pointing it out. That just confirms it though, from my point of view there are scum pushing for his lynch. For everyone else out there, unless me, Lesrah and kush are the scumteam, there are scum among the voters. Yet again, he's repeating his points. Nothing substantial. His promise of something was not kept. Still no actual scumhunting. Show nested quote +On September 29 2012 20:02 Alsn wrote:EBWOP again: Just realized it, WIFOM what? How the hell is my analysis of the vote numbers WIFOM. It's logical that from the point of view of a townie that has voted, the only way kush is scum, is if me and Lesrah are scum too. It's simple math. Given that I have more information than all the townies that have voted so far(I know my own alignment), I can of course conclude that there must be scum that voted for kush, regardless if kush is scum or not. So could Lesrah if he turns out to be town(but as things are looking now, he will probably be replaced/modkilled so he wouldn't participate in this lynch regardless). Do you even know what WIFOM is? I did not arbitrarily keep arguing back and forth, I made a logical conclusion from the information available. Ok. This post just repeats his earlier points. Now comes his change of opinion + Show Spoiler +On September 29 2012 21:15 Alsn wrote: I've been doing some soul searching and I'm starting to agree that it's not worth it to try and push any other cases right now.
Mostly because my entire premise was that I was thinking it to be unlikely for kush to be scum. I realise that after trying to put into words why I think that is so, I have nothing other than the fact that I "feel" him to be town, which is a really stupid reason for absolving him. I thought I could back it up by saying he's been pressured to hard, there's no way he's responsible for not scum hunting. But in the end, I can't find a logical reason to forgive him if I exclude my own gut feeling from the equation.
I think now that my best option is to hold on to whatever small reads I have(because while I have some suspicions, I don't think they are rock solid) until after the lynch is over. Because at least then, we will have more information.
So for now, although my gut is screaming at me, I'll commit to voting for kush, mostly because most of what I said about BosoN has returned somewhat satisfactory answers, I really don't like the way a lot of people got away with not basically posting anything at all(I'm looking at you, Djodref, corrosion, Omniscient, RemedySC). I think that's probably what irks me the most, the thing I was most hoping would not happen, did happen.
##Vote: kushm4sta Ok a "change of heart" changes his views on kush and scumhunting. I can understand changing his view on kush. However, he had been adamant that people push cases on people other than kush all day. Yet, it wasn't worth it anymore. Then, he says in the same post he doesn't like how those 4 got away with not posting? Why didn't he call them out if he wanted to scumhunt so bad? Why is he leaving the job up to others and just calling out people he wants to be looked at? + Show Spoiler +On September 29 2012 21:28 Alsn wrote: By the way, just to clarify about my vote.
I realised that my entire vote count argument falls apart if there's no compelling reason to believe kush to be town, and asking myself the following question kinda shocked me: "What has kush done for town?"
I couldn't find an answer to that question, no matter how hard I looked. As such, I can't not vote for him. The wording in the last statement is weird. It implies that he was looking for reasons to not vote kush. + Show Spoiler +On September 29 2012 21:31 Alsn wrote: Seriously, I need a break from this as I'm feeling indecisive as shit at the moment while I woke up brimming with confidence that I would find some scum today. I'll be checking in on the thread all the way until lynch, so I'll reply if you need me to, but I don't think I'll be making any monster posts. Here he admits he did not scumhunt. He says he is indecisive. + Show Spoiler +On September 30 2012 04:39 Alsn wrote:Show nested quote +On September 30 2012 03:00 Z-BosoN wrote: I urge everyone to read this exchange. My lines are in red. He still feels the need to use the same elements he did initially: My case is OMGUS, it's weak, it's bad, etc. This post comes off to me as cornered scum trying to squirm his way out, but that could be just me tunneling him hard. Everyone please take the time to read and see if you agree with me.
I actually find some of your arguments very compelling. I agree that his 180 on Djodref looks scummy, but I don't agree with your original argument that him making that case on both you and Djodref is inherently scummy just because the cases are similar. I however think that your pressuring has yielded fruit. I happen to agree that your initial feud with debears was on pretty shaky grounds, which is why I spoke out against you at that point. It may just have been me misinterpreting your tone/intentions, but nevertheless I feel most of the early-game arguments debears put forward were relatively sound, and you weren't necessarily in the right for attacking them. His responses do seem convoluted though. To be fair, I think his "scum slip"(the one where he all but proclaimed Djod town) is pretty much the exact same type of slip that kush committed. Basically, directly suggesting that he should pm marv could be seen as him knowing djod's alignment. But I think just as with the kush slip, it's definitely not 100%. It could be a typo, he could have just been lazy and not wanted to say marv/hapa, there could be many different reasons. Anything he says himself probably won't sway anyone though. I'm actually surprised there hasn't been more of an outcry about it. So to sum up, I disagree that debears is clearly wrong for saying that your initial case was weak, however, I feel like he has some pretty scummy explanations for some of his actions, particularly wrt Djodref. I think your case has gone from pretty nit picky to a rather strong case. So I think I'll withdraw my FoS on you, your explanation for your behaviour concerning SDM earlier was satisfactory, and I will probably have to go through your case against him at least one more time before I can be sure, but it seems to be pretty solid to me. I would like to see some input from the less active players with regards to the entire debears/boson debate. Because currently I'm having pretty much null reads on all of the following: Omniscient, RemedySC, Corrosion, Djodref(someone else remind me if there's anyone I've missed please). A few of them have posted slightly scummy or slightly town, but either way it's very difficult for me to make up my mind one way or the other right now. If we assume that kush wasn't trolling us with the "I'm red" part, then we have quite some time before we ever need to worry about mylo/lylo, but I'd still like for us to get there without either being forced to lynch 4 null-reading lurkers, or to have them left in the game at that stage. Here is another worthless post. His whole point is "Z-bo's case may have validity". Then he gives us some reads, except they are 4 null reads. No scum hunting. Not any actual contribution. + Show Spoiler +On September 30 2012 19:18 Alsn wrote:Show nested quote +On September 30 2012 18:50 DarthPunk wrote:On September 30 2012 18:10 Alsn wrote: Hi, just woke up, skimmed through the last couple of pages.
Not sure if you even want to know, but at the time of, as you say, act III - IV, I had a gut feeling that things were going way too easy for kush to be scum, and that made me doubt the motivations of DarthPunk, as well as the fact that I had found you pretty scummy from the day before. When I was going to make a case against either of you however, I only found the few questions I asked DP about, but which I then later found out was just him being rightfully(I thought he was out to get me for no apparent reason) suspicious of me.
Then as I went through your filter, you started to make more and more sense, just like I and everyone else has pointed out, your case against debears now has merit, which pretty much meant that I just didn't find you as scummy as I thought you would be. So yea, the two scum reads that I didn't actually have, weren't actually scummy. Trying to make a case against someone for no reason seemed like inherently anti-town, so I just gave up when I thought about just why I thought kush was town, what had he done that helped town? While I imagine being a victim like that would be pretty harsh, nothing he had done had tried to show that he really was a victim, so I went along with the lynch. I had to vote for someone.
That being said, this discussion helps no one, If you think I'm scummy, go ahead and think so, I won't be lynched for another 2,5 days either way so I'll have tons of time to make myself useful. Like I said to kush, actions speak louder than words, I don't expect anyone to judge me in any other way. I thought you had a town read on me? But after that I am one of your scum reads and you try to build a case on me? That sort of doesn't match up with the afore mentioned town read. Now you're just misunderstanding me, I had a gut scum read on you due to me feeling unjustifiably attacked. I didn't want to say that out loud while I was questioning you at the time. But like I explained when I examined your filter as well as when you replied to me, things became much clearer and thus I re-evaluated you. Ah finally, he actually states a scum read. However, earlier he said he wanted to push a lynch for a top scum read. He didn't do that. A FOS isn't pushing a lynch. He never took a decisive "you're scum" stance day 1. Alsn's whole day 1 was centered on kush being town, and mediating the conflict between me and Z-Bo. Where was the scumhunting? Where was the real contribution that he promised? -----after just reading Alsn's big post---------- @AlsnHowever, 1) My posting to defend myself day 1 was because I thought (and still do) that most of Z-Boson's case is dumb and confirmation bias (which you agree with me about according to your post. 2) I chose Z-Boson because they way he FOS'd me back was OMGUS to me. Djo is a noob. Z-Boson isn't. Z-Boson would know better to first, calll out a player for no reason early on and overstate that player's views. And two, FOS me with shitty reasoning. 3) My main problem with Z-Boson is that he was looking only at mafia motivations in his post (confirmation bias if he is town, if he is scum, trying to frame someone). Also, his association case about modwarnings was flat out unreasonable and follows WIFOM. Also, he was trying way too hard to lobby his case against me. It seems the only real part of his argument that everyone agrees with is the pm marv post I addressed to Djo, which I have done my best to explain. I don't see his case as strong. Yet, he feels its the mother of all cases, calling it a "shitbomb" on me earlier. How can a townie be so sure of himself besides confirmation bias? That said, Z-Boson has made a case against you which I agree with. He came off more reasonable today with the questions he asked me. For that, I do not have such a strong stance on him at this moment. However, you seem a little bit too obsessed with our argument. Your post is in essence a giant summary of what happened. You state a scumread on me, which is improvement. However, I don't feel your scumhunting is original. Your reasoning for FOS on me is problematic. I believe I have already been called out for posting defensively. Also if "This all leads me to believe Z-BosoN is suffering from massive confirmation bias", as I stated, why wouldn't I defend myself extensively? I have been called out by Z-Bo for inconsistency. Read above this for some reasoning on choosing one over the other. And finally, you don't see my cases pointing out Z-Boson as scummy, yet you agree my cases say reasonable things? "Here he addresses debears final post, a post which like I just pointed out says reasonable things." Just because you think someone's case about someone else being scum isn't correct, if the case is reasonable, that shouldn't make you think that the accuser is scum That reasoning doesn't make sense, based on your own conclusions.
Wow. My thoughts were pretty original. Amazing what happens when you actually read the thread instead of making baseless accusations when under pressure
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On October 03 2012 02:01 Alsn wrote:Show nested quote +On September 29 2012 19:19 DarthPunk wrote: Stop complaining about other people scum hunting and do some yourself. Wow, why don't you look at this time stamp? It took me literally 10 seconds to find it.
So, your basing your sudden confirmation on me as scum based on 1 sentence at the very end of Darth's post about you defending kush.
Let's look at the context on why I missed this
1) The last post I had that day. Note the timestamp
On September 29 2012 15:23 debears wrote: Ugh. Pphone autocorect is screwing me. Fill in the blanks if u you must
Now for my first post of the next day. Notice the 4 hour gap before the statement you quoted from darth. Notice the 5 hour gap after it.
+ Show Spoiler +On September 30 2012 00:02 debears wrote:Alright guys, sobered up and reading to go into ass kicking mode. At this point, kush is going to be lynched. However, some of you faultily believe this “association case” linking me and kush by Boson and his case against me. I originally intended this to be a pure defense case, but after typing it out, Z-Boson comes across scummy to me. Anyways here we go. Show nested quote +On September 29 2012 05:29 Z-BosoN wrote:All right, I went through debears filter now, and I'm confident he is scum. Let's go through this more carefully now. His first post: + Show Spoiler +On September 28 2012 11:05 debears wrote:Lol. Kush already going at it. Hey guys. I'm debears. This is my second game ever of mafia. I have a couple of things to add: + Show Spoiler +Show nested quote +On September 28 2012 09:18 DarthPunk wrote:On September 28 2012 09:10 Z-BosoN wrote:On September 28 2012 08:43 DarthPunk wrote: It is not impossible to find scum on the first day. Policy lynches get you no info, you are most likely going to hit a townie, and you end up in the same position the next day minus 2 town. @Djodref your 'day plan' is unnecessary. Scum hunt, vote for your top scum read and everything else will fall into place. After LVII I'm rather liking the idea of policy lynches, in extreme cases. Killing lurkers in a lurker-infested town, for example, is something I'm inclined to agree on. If the town proves itself active, then whoever proves himself scummier will occupy the noose. Given that this is a newbie game, scums are generally more scared to post. While that is a general tendency, I don't agree with mass posters being cleared right off the bat, even if their posts seem meaningful. What I suggest in this game, is that people read. From my few games, much time is usually wasted discussing things that have not been read properly. On September 28 2012 06:56 Sonic Death Monkey wrote: Cool, we're on. Pretty bad timing though, I'm off to bed and then I've got a day at uni before I can really start posting. I hope to God when I get back we've moved past the lurker policy discussion. My message to newbies: the best way for you to clear yourself is to post a lot. Don't post just for the sake of posting though, that'll make you look like scum because posting for the sake of posting is what scum do. This is a rather useless post. Newbie towns want to scumhunt. Newbie scum want to look like they are scumhunting. That =/= posting a lot but not for the sake of posting, or whatever you meant. And please tell me, what do you mean? You say you hope to have moved past the lurker discussion, and yet you are telling people to post a lot? In my eyes you are telling people not to lurk because that will make them seem scummy. It seems to me that you are indirectly stating your views on lurkers despite openly saying you don't want to talk about them. Meh. Don't like lurker policy lynches at all. It just tells scum: Post. and your safe. I have read every post so far as scummy and I don't see SDM's post as more or less scummy than the others. But posting a lot will let people get a good read on you so you should 100% be doing this as town. And then if all the townies are posting you force scum to. Which makes it much easier to nab them also. SO. Post a lot if you are town. You make scum uncomfortable and facilitate town reads on yourself and scum reads on scum. You also clutter the thread if you just post alot. Let me specify. Post quality as often as you can. That means reread the thread and build good cases. One liners don't do much good. Cases with multiple quotes and a few sentences of explanation per quote are good (most of the time). Also, USE YOUR COACHES TOWN. Thrawn pmed Hapa over 50 times last game and he had the best town performance. That isn't a coincidence. @Kush I don't like the way you are starting off this game kush. It's eerily similar as last game when you were mafia. You mention you're deathless streak, nk, and your scummy meta without anyone bringing it up. You should know that I most likely know you're trends better than anyone else in this game. The only difference between this game and last is that you have engaged in a flame war with Darth this game, which is unhelpful to our town. FOS Kush@everyone One more thing: Feel free to accuse and build cases on anyone you want for the first 24 hours. However, let's start tunneling for the second 24 hours. Also, I would like everyone to start considering a lurker (in your head) once we hit the second 24 hours as a backup. If we get close to the lynch deadline, and there are no scummy candidates, feel free to post a good case on which lurker would be the best candidate. First of all, his "I want town to win!!" post telling town to use their coaches. He then FoS's Kush, due to the fact that he's playing a similar game as the one he was scum. He says that DP + kush flame war is bad for the town, but doesn't attack Darthpunk, probably because he finds kush to be more scummy looking. Now, from a townie perspective, what does debear want? Information in order to lynch kush, as he pointed a FOS mostly based on a meta read. But suddenly, towards darthpunk:
snip --You could also say that you are too convinced in your reasons. What I am cautious of at this point is that you stated directly before the game that you were after kush if he plays like he has in his past 3 games. I feel like that may be clouding your judgement in this situation. Our main goal is to lynch mafia. Yes, kush has said some scummy things. However, I'm not gonna go around parading this early saying "kush is scum. Kush is scum. OMFG". Also, let the man defend himself instead of trying to rally everyone active behind your cause so early. If he is scummy, the votes will come. He is defensive towards kush. That's not how townies think. While I agree that DP is a bit overboard on kush, I don't agree that he failed to give arguments as to why he thinks that is so. A townie with a FOS on someone will want to deal with the arguments first. He doesn't do that, and suddenly becomes defensive on Kush. He says, later:
I'm not defending him as much as I'm trying to tell you that you are going overboard right now. You don't have to rush in annointing him scum. He is more bothered by DPs certainty than by his actual arguments. Inconsistency #1. He then comes up with two cases. One against me, and one against Djoref: @Boson + Show Spoiler +On September 28 2012 09:10 Z-BosoN wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2012 08:43 DarthPunk wrote: It is not impossible to find scum on the first day. Policy lynches get you no info, you are most likely going to hit a townie, and you end up in the same position the next day minus 2 town. @Djodref your 'day plan' is unnecessary. Scum hunt, vote for your top scum read and everything else will fall into place. After LVII I'm rather liking the idea of policy lynches, in extreme cases. Killing lurkers in a lurker-infested town, for example, is something I'm inclined to agree on. If the town proves itself active, then whoever proves himself scummier will occupy the noose. Given that this is a newbie game, scums are generally more scared to post. While that is a general tendency, I don't agree with mass posters being cleared right off the bat, even if their posts seem meaningful. What I suggest in this game, is that people read. From my few games, much time is usually wasted discussing things that have not been read properly. Show nested quote +On September 28 2012 06:56 Sonic Death Monkey wrote: Cool, we're on. Pretty bad timing though, I'm off to bed and then I've got a day at uni before I can really start posting. I hope to God when I get back we've moved past the lurker policy discussion. My message to newbies: the best way for you to clear yourself is to post a lot. Don't post just for the sake of posting though, that'll make you look like scum because posting for the sake of posting is what scum do. This is a rather useless post. Newbie towns want to scumhunt. Newbie scum want to look like they are scumhunting. That =/= posting a lot but not for the sake of posting, or whatever you meant. And please tell me, what do you mean? You say you hope to have moved past the lurker discussion, and yet you are telling people to post a lot? In my eyes you are telling people not to lurk because that will make them seem scummy. It seems to me that you are indirectly stating your views on lurkers despite openly saying you don't want to talk about them. Boson, please try not to read too hard into a person's very first posts and make something out of nothing. It is pretty clear what sonic was saying. He wants newbies to post so that they don't get grouped under the lurker corral that usually follows up later. Last game, we had lurkers galore and it really messed up the town. Also, you mention that his post is useless. Now I will examine your two other posts in terms of uselessness. On September 28 2012 09:12 Z-BosoN wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2012 09:01 kushm4sta wrote:On September 28 2012 08:34 DarthPunk wrote:On September 28 2012 06:58 kushm4sta wrote: @sonic getting everyone's thoughts on lurker policy is important. Don't argue about it but share your views on the matter please.. No it's not. It is simply a mechanism to get the discussion going and allows scum to seem to participate and to potentially mislynch an inactive townie. Any more talk of policy will get you FoS'd. Sorry but who appointed this asshole boss? you get people's thoughts on lurker policy, so you can catch them deviating from it later and question them about it. And why are you that scared of a FOS? A one-liner. A question that really doesn't accomplish anything. In other words, a useless post. Also, your next post doesn't address his response although he responded right after and you posted within 30 minutes of his response in a pretty light thread. On September 28 2012 09:43 Z-BosoN wrote: @DP
Saying we will lynch lurkers is one thing. Deciding whether a lurker should die later at day two is another. What I said is I'm inclined to lynch a lurker if there aren't better choices, not that we will 100% lynch a lurker.
@Stutters
I'd like to see more posts from you. In XXIV you showed you were capable of making decent posts as town, so I encourage you to post eve more here.
@kush
What's your view on darthpunk? You said you don't like his coldness, but you don't like it in a "he's scum" sort of way? Yet again, nothing of substance here. You go more in depth about semantics (is that the right word I'm looking for?) about lynching lurkers and lynching lurkers at day two. Second, you call out stutters, who has already been warned by others and most likely the mods for no reason this early in the game. Finally, two sentences, two questions going on about the exact wording of kush's statements. It sounded like before the game you had stated that you have played in multiple games. Is that true? For someone who is telling other people to not post useless posts, you aren't doing a good job of it yourself. Looks more like you are trying to just be active while off the radar. In other words, you are a semi-active lurker who has bad post quality. Sounds like characteristics of a certain alignment. @Djoref+ Show Spoiler +On September 28 2012 08:51 Djodref wrote: @Darthpunk
Nevermind you look just more confident to get a scum on D1 than me.
Regarding my plan, I think we need general directions to follow because of the majority lynch. It is a way to gather everybody around 2-3 suspicious players and secure a lynch. I'm assuming everyone agree on a no-lynch to be stupid.
Djoref, I don't like that statement at all. That's the second post you bring up about the likelihood of lynching a townie d1. As town, you should never have that mentality. I would probably less likely to bring this up if you were a total nooby. However, you said you "know Kush's meta" which means you have some decent understanding of the game for a noob. By saying this, it seems that you are setting yourself an excuse to be indecisive later in the day when the lynch voting comes around. Alone, it isn't much. However, your other posts don't help. On September 28 2012 08:44 Djodref wrote: @Darthpunk
Considering that we are likely to lynch a town on D1, don't you think it's a lesser wrong to get rid of someone inactive ? Inactivity means no scumhunt and room to hide for the mafia...
After playing mafia last game, I feel like heavy lurking is a bad play for mafia. It puts too much pressure on you are as a scum. Instead, posting lightly without much substance is more mafia indicative. Yet again, I feel you are just looking like you are contributing without saying much. Especially when you already covered your thoughts in a previous post. On September 28 2012 08:36 Djodref wrote:Hello everybody ! About meThis is my first game ever on forum but I've been playing on SC2mafia and also irl. But I've been lurking on the TL Mafia forum for a while (so I know your meta kush^^) and I decided to join this newbie game. I'm also a French guy and I live in Korea so my english is not on top and it's going to ne difficult for me to be around at deadline (5.00 am KST). Lurker policyFrom the games I've seen, unless you have a golden scumslip on d1, it's very difficult to lynch a scum the very first day. So I have no problem ending up voting for the most suspicious lurker at the end of the day. I define most suspicious lurker as a semi-lurker just trying to blend in.Day PlanI don't think to be able to be around for the first deadline so I would like to propose a day plan to secure a lynch as we are using a majority vote. First 24 hours to find lynch candidates while scumhunting and next 20 hours to decide who is the scummiest. Last 4 hours to consolidate the vote or switch to a lurker. Please discuss Notice how you are just repeating points? It isn't helpful to us. Next post On September 28 2012 11:09 Djodref wrote:@Kush Was it also a joke ? How can you be so sure you are not going to be NKed ? A two sentence, two question post. I don't like these. They are worthless. Also, this question came quite a bit later after darthpunk already was asking questions about joking. You seem to be sheeping onto darth's case against kush. On September 28 2012 11:53 Djodref wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2012 11:22 kushm4sta wrote:
Because the most active townie is tunneling me?
I would also like to hear you explanations about this specific part. I don't have a read on Darth on the moment considering he has only been hard tunneling you. As you said yourself you have a scummy meta so you are an easy target for early game to put pressure on. So what makes him so much town ? Yet again, this post is just repeating what darth is saying. Another question. I don't like this. Your early posts are indicative of a semi-active scum. Sheeping, question posts, and rehashing things already said multiple times. Notice the similarity between the two. He attacks us for asking questions (later on denies that they provide any discussion whatsoever), and falls into the same "semi-active lurker" category he's sniffing about. I will ignore the quality of his arguments, which I personally think are horrible, and will look more towards their similarity. From his case against me:A one-liner. A question that really doesn't accomplish anything. In other words, a useless post. Also, your next post doesn't address his response although he responded right after and you posted within 30 minutes of his response in a pretty light thread. For someone who is telling other people to not post useless posts, you aren't doing a good job of it yourself. Looks more like you are trying to just be active while off the radar. In other words, you are a semi-active lurker who has bad post quality. Sounds like characteristics of a certain alignment. From his case against Djoref:A two sentence, two question post. I don't like these. They are worthless. Also, this question came quite a bit later after darthpunk already was asking questions about joking. You seem to be sheeping onto darth's case against kush. Your early posts are indicative of a semi-active scum. Sheeping, question posts, and rehashing things already said multiple times. See the similarity, especially the bolded part? It seems that he has this "semi-active scum" cake recipe that he is using to sniff out scum. He also calls us out on our posting quality, in my case saying it is bad. I won't address his next post towards me because I've already done so, and because it doesn't increase his scumminess , as "bad cases =/= scum" (although it pisses me off). Anyways, now to the main stuff. He has a case against me and Djoref, for pretty much the same reasoning. Yet, check out what his next post on Djoref is: On September 29 2012 01:55 debears wrote:@Djoref Show nested quote +On September 28 2012 15:22 Djodref wrote: @DarthPunk
For your information, i consider the comments of debears on my posts legitimate. Let me say that I even don't like them. Currently reading the guides and older game analysis. Please pm marv for help. The coaches are great Wtf??? What ?? Where is his case against Djoref?? He goes from a scummy-looking sheep with one liners to a "townie who should pm marv for help"? Could he have forgotten that Djoref was one of his main suspicions? Inconsistency #2
Note that I no longer think that his defense of SDM is scummy. I've gone over that a few times and I admit that it can also come from a townie perspective. To summarize, here are the main inconsistencies in his play that scream to me SCUM: 1) He had a FOS on kush, then hurried on to defend him, in the manner I've shown above. I cannot fathom for the life of me having a FOS on someone and suddenly feel like I have to address an exaggeration on that person before I actually address the case. 2) He completely absolves Djoref for absolutely no reason. Townies do not throw around suspicions only to insta-drop them.3) The other supporting arguments I've shown above.debears is SCUM!##vote debears Note the use of red in this whole thing is to clarify what I’m refuting. Inconsistency 1 1) My “want to win”, use the coaches pm has mainly townie motivation. Why wouldn't I tell everyone to PM their coaches after last game? Hapapauli specifically mentioned how Thrawn was the only one actually getting help from him. There can be some mafia WIFOM argument, but that is assuming more than the fact I want to win and the obvious townie motivation for it. 2) Next, you say that I don’t attack DarthPunk. While I never attacked DarthPunk (he had good reasoning for suspecting kush), I did tell him to cool his jets and stop trying to convince others to his argument so early in the game, especially since kush was afk at the moment darth attacked kush. Now, because of his early hardcore tunnel, we are in a situation where the lynch is one sided. That doesn’t do really any good for us unless he is mafia. If he turns town, we gave the mafia a veil to hide under. Another townie side Z-Boson failed to address. 3) From a townie perspective, I wanted more information on kush, and I wanted to spread out some focus on other people early on to avoid a one sided lynch for the reasons in 2), hence the posts directed at Djo and Z-Boson early on. 4) Then, your points about me being defensive at kush were not defenses of kush’s actions. They were attempts to tell darth to chill out and subdue some of his power trip, which I said in both quotes that you post in that section. 5) When you say a townie with a FOS will want to deal with arguments first, that is true. However, kush was afk at the moment and darth was hammering him without kush able to defend himself at a very early point in time in the game. As stated above, look at the situation we are in now if kush flips town. Inconsistency 2 1) If you looked at my posts after my “PM marv for help” post, I believe corrosion instantly assumed that I confirmed him town. That is not true at all. Notice A) Djo is a noob and B) I said COACHES. The word townie was never said in the sentence. You guys are putting words in my mouth. Also, note how in one of Djo’s prior posts, he says he was going to go look at guides. I don’t understand why you guys are so eager to jump on someone trying to help a newbie. Yet again, townie motivation: If Djo is town, it will greatly help us if he gets help. Even if he isn't, it will raise the quality of this NEWBIE game and help us all improve if he gets help. Ending 1) I want to quote something from Bosons post. “Note that I no longer think that his defense of SDM is scummy. I've gone over that a few times and I admit that it can also come from a townie perspective.” By his logic, that does not factor into my case. Also, how do the other two reasons in your post not have a townie perspective/motivation? 2) The list of 1,2,3 Boson made at the bottom. If I read the post correctly, the only other argument is that my cases against Djo and Z-Bo early one were a "scum recipe". To that, I say duh. Semi-active lurker is a place where mafia can hide to look like they are contributing without actually doing so. I noticed this last game with JacobStrangeLove. I also read some guides that state that. Why wouldn't I call you out early when there's not much to go on? Now for z-bos next post right after the post in which he attacked me (5 min after to be exact): + Show Spoiler +On September 29 2012 05:34 Z-BosoN wrote: I'm not against a kush lynch atm, but from what I gather kush's case is mostly meta-based with a side dish of not-scumhunting and also general scummy-looking posts. I think my evidence against debear is much more damning. Please read carefully his posts and my case and see if you don't agree. So he bashs me for “defending kush” (according to himself) and then infers that the evidence against kush isn’t the greatest. That’s not very consistent. On September 29 2012 05:55 Z-BosoN wrote:Show nested quote +On September 29 2012 05:46 kushm4sta wrote:On September 29 2012 05:29 Z-BosoN wrote:All right, I went through debears filter now, and I'm confident he is scum. Let's go through this more carefully now. His first post: On September 28 2012 11:05 debears wrote:Lol. Kush already going at it. Hey guys. I'm debears. This is my second game ever of mafia. I have a couple of things to add: + Show Spoiler +Show nested quote +On September 28 2012 09:18 DarthPunk wrote:On September 28 2012 09:10 Z-BosoN wrote:On September 28 2012 08:43 DarthPunk wrote: It is not impossible to find scum on the first day. Policy lynches get you no info, you are most likely going to hit a townie, and you end up in the same position the next day minus 2 town. @Djodref your 'day plan' is unnecessary. Scum hunt, vote for your top scum read and everything else will fall into place. After LVII I'm rather liking the idea of policy lynches, in extreme cases. Killing lurkers in a lurker-infested town, for example, is something I'm inclined to agree on. If the town proves itself active, then whoever proves himself scummier will occupy the noose. Given that this is a newbie game, scums are generally more scared to post. While that is a general tendency, I don't agree with mass posters being cleared right off the bat, even if their posts seem meaningful. What I suggest in this game, is that people read. From my few games, much time is usually wasted discussing things that have not been read properly. On September 28 2012 06:56 Sonic Death Monkey wrote: Cool, we're on. Pretty bad timing though, I'm off to bed and then I've got a day at uni before I can really start posting. I hope to God when I get back we've moved past the lurker policy discussion. My message to newbies: the best way for you to clear yourself is to post a lot. Don't post just for the sake of posting though, that'll make you look like scum because posting for the sake of posting is what scum do. This is a rather useless post. Newbie towns want to scumhunt. Newbie scum want to look like they are scumhunting. That =/= posting a lot but not for the sake of posting, or whatever you meant. And please tell me, what do you mean? You say you hope to have moved past the lurker discussion, and yet you are telling people to post a lot? In my eyes you are telling people not to lurk because that will make them seem scummy. It seems to me that you are indirectly stating your views on lurkers despite openly saying you don't want to talk about them. Meh. Don't like lurker policy lynches at all. It just tells scum: Post. and your safe. I have read every post so far as scummy and I don't see SDM's post as more or less scummy than the others. But posting a lot will let people get a good read on you so you should 100% be doing this as town. And then if all the townies are posting you force scum to. Which makes it much easier to nab them also. SO. Post a lot if you are town. You make scum uncomfortable and facilitate town reads on yourself and scum reads on scum. You also clutter the thread if you just post alot. Let me specify. Post quality as often as you can. That means reread the thread and build good cases. One liners don't do much good. Cases with multiple quotes and a few sentences of explanation per quote are good (most of the time). Also, USE YOUR COACHES TOWN. Thrawn pmed Hapa over 50 times last game and he had the best town performance. That isn't a coincidence. @Kush I don't like the way you are starting off this game kush. It's eerily similar as last game when you were mafia. You mention you're deathless streak, nk, and your scummy meta without anyone bringing it up. You should know that I most likely know you're trends better than anyone else in this game. The only difference between this game and last is that you have engaged in a flame war with Darth this game, which is unhelpful to our town. FOS Kush@everyone One more thing: Feel free to accuse and build cases on anyone you want for the first 24 hours. However, let's start tunneling for the second 24 hours. Also, I would like everyone to start considering a lurker (in your head) once we hit the second 24 hours as a backup. If we get close to the lynch deadline, and there are no scummy candidates, feel free to post a good case on which lurker would be the best candidate. First of all, his "I want town to win!!" post telling town to use their coaches. He then FoS's Kush, due to the fact that he's playing a similar game as the one he was scum. He says that DP + kush flame war is bad for the town, but doesn't attack Darthpunk, probably because he finds kush to be more scummy looking. Now, from a townie perspective, what does debear want? Information in order to lynch kush, as he pointed a FOS mostly based on a meta read. But suddenly, towards darthpunk: snip --You could also say that you are too convinced in your reasons. What I am cautious of at this point is that you stated directly before the game that you were after kush if he plays like he has in his past 3 games. I feel like that may be clouding your judgement in this situation.
Our main goal is to lynch mafia. Yes, kush has said some scummy things. However, I'm not gonna go around parading this early saying "kush is scum. Kush is scum. OMFG".
Also, let the man defend himself instead of trying to rally everyone active behind your cause so early. If he is scummy, the votes will come. He is defensive towards kush. That's not how townies think. While I agree that DP is a bit overboard on kush, I don't agree that he failed to give arguments as to why he thinks that is so. A townie with a FOS on someone will want to deal with the arguments first. He doesn't do that, and suddenly becomes defensive on Kush. He says, later: I'm not defending him as much as I'm trying to tell you that you are going overboard right now. You don't have to rush in annointing him scum. He is more bothered by DPs certainty than by his actual arguments. Inconsistency #1. He then comes up with two cases. One against me, and one against Djoref: @Boson + Show Spoiler +On September 28 2012 09:10 Z-BosoN wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2012 08:43 DarthPunk wrote: It is not impossible to find scum on the first day. Policy lynches get you no info, you are most likely going to hit a townie, and you end up in the same position the next day minus 2 town. @Djodref your 'day plan' is unnecessary. Scum hunt, vote for your top scum read and everything else will fall into place. After LVII I'm rather liking the idea of policy lynches, in extreme cases. Killing lurkers in a lurker-infested town, for example, is something I'm inclined to agree on. If the town proves itself active, then whoever proves himself scummier will occupy the noose. Given that this is a newbie game, scums are generally more scared to post. While that is a general tendency, I don't agree with mass posters being cleared right off the bat, even if their posts seem meaningful. What I suggest in this game, is that people read. From my few games, much time is usually wasted discussing things that have not been read properly. Show nested quote +On September 28 2012 06:56 Sonic Death Monkey wrote: Cool, we're on. Pretty bad timing though, I'm off to bed and then I've got a day at uni before I can really start posting. I hope to God when I get back we've moved past the lurker policy discussion. My message to newbies: the best way for you to clear yourself is to post a lot. Don't post just for the sake of posting though, that'll make you look like scum because posting for the sake of posting is what scum do. This is a rather useless post. Newbie towns want to scumhunt. Newbie scum want to look like they are scumhunting. That =/= posting a lot but not for the sake of posting, or whatever you meant. And please tell me, what do you mean? You say you hope to have moved past the lurker discussion, and yet you are telling people to post a lot? In my eyes you are telling people not to lurk because that will make them seem scummy. It seems to me that you are indirectly stating your views on lurkers despite openly saying you don't want to talk about them. Boson, please try not to read too hard into a person's very first posts and make something out of nothing. It is pretty clear what sonic was saying. He wants newbies to post so that they don't get grouped under the lurker corral that usually follows up later. Last game, we had lurkers galore and it really messed up the town. Also, you mention that his post is useless. Now I will examine your two other posts in terms of uselessness. On September 28 2012 09:12 Z-BosoN wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2012 09:01 kushm4sta wrote:On September 28 2012 08:34 DarthPunk wrote:On September 28 2012 06:58 kushm4sta wrote: @sonic getting everyone's thoughts on lurker policy is important. Don't argue about it but share your views on the matter please.. No it's not. It is simply a mechanism to get the discussion going and allows scum to seem to participate and to potentially mislynch an inactive townie. Any more talk of policy will get you FoS'd. Sorry but who appointed this asshole boss? you get people's thoughts on lurker policy, so you can catch them deviating from it later and question them about it. And why are you that scared of a FOS? A one-liner. A question that really doesn't accomplish anything. In other words, a useless post. Also, your next post doesn't address his response although he responded right after and you posted within 30 minutes of his response in a pretty light thread. On September 28 2012 09:43 Z-BosoN wrote: @DP
Saying we will lynch lurkers is one thing. Deciding whether a lurker should die later at day two is another. What I said is I'm inclined to lynch a lurker if there aren't better choices, not that we will 100% lynch a lurker.
@Stutters
I'd like to see more posts from you. In XXIV you showed you were capable of making decent posts as town, so I encourage you to post eve more here.
@kush
What's your view on darthpunk? You said you don't like his coldness, but you don't like it in a "he's scum" sort of way? Yet again, nothing of substance here. You go more in depth about semantics (is that the right word I'm looking for?) about lynching lurkers and lynching lurkers at day two. Second, you call out stutters, who has already been warned by others and most likely the mods for no reason this early in the game. Finally, two sentences, two questions going on about the exact wording of kush's statements. It sounded like before the game you had stated that you have played in multiple games. Is that true? For someone who is telling other people to not post useless posts, you aren't doing a good job of it yourself. Looks more like you are trying to just be active while off the radar. In other words, you are a semi-active lurker who has bad post quality. Sounds like characteristics of a certain alignment. @Djoref+ Show Spoiler +On September 28 2012 08:51 Djodref wrote: @Darthpunk
Nevermind you look just more confident to get a scum on D1 than me.
Regarding my plan, I think we need general directions to follow because of the majority lynch. It is a way to gather everybody around 2-3 suspicious players and secure a lynch. I'm assuming everyone agree on a no-lynch to be stupid.
Djoref, I don't like that statement at all. That's the second post you bring up about the likelihood of lynching a townie d1. As town, you should never have that mentality. I would probably less likely to bring this up if you were a total nooby. However, you said you "know Kush's meta" which means you have some decent understanding of the game for a noob. By saying this, it seems that you are setting yourself an excuse to be indecisive later in the day when the lynch voting comes around. Alone, it isn't much. However, your other posts don't help. On September 28 2012 08:44 Djodref wrote: @Darthpunk
Considering that we are likely to lynch a town on D1, don't you think it's a lesser wrong to get rid of someone inactive ? Inactivity means no scumhunt and room to hide for the mafia...
After playing mafia last game, I feel like heavy lurking is a bad play for mafia. It puts too much pressure on you are as a scum. Instead, posting lightly without much substance is more mafia indicative. Yet again, I feel you are just looking like you are contributing without saying much. Especially when you already covered your thoughts in a previous post. On September 28 2012 08:36 Djodref wrote:Hello everybody ! About meThis is my first game ever on forum but I've been playing on SC2mafia and also irl. But I've been lurking on the TL Mafia forum for a while (so I know your meta kush^^) and I decided to join this newbie game. I'm also a French guy and I live in Korea so my english is not on top and it's going to ne difficult for me to be around at deadline (5.00 am KST). Lurker policyFrom the games I've seen, unless you have a golden scumslip on d1, it's very difficult to lynch a scum the very first day. So I have no problem ending up voting for the most suspicious lurker at the end of the day. I define most suspicious lurker as a semi-lurker just trying to blend in.Day PlanI don't think to be able to be around for the first deadline so I would like to propose a day plan to secure a lynch as we are using a majority vote. First 24 hours to find lynch candidates while scumhunting and next 20 hours to decide who is the scummiest. Last 4 hours to consolidate the vote or switch to a lurker. Please discuss Notice how you are just repeating points? It isn't helpful to us. Next post On September 28 2012 11:09 Djodref wrote:@Kush Was it also a joke ? How can you be so sure you are not going to be NKed ? A two sentence, two question post. I don't like these. They are worthless. Also, this question came quite a bit later after darthpunk already was asking questions about joking. You seem to be sheeping onto darth's case against kush. On September 28 2012 11:53 Djodref wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2012 11:22 kushm4sta wrote:
Because the most active townie is tunneling me?
I would also like to hear you explanations about this specific part. I don't have a read on Darth on the moment considering he has only been hard tunneling you. As you said yourself you have a scummy meta so you are an easy target for early game to put pressure on. So what makes him so much town ? Yet again, this post is just repeating what darth is saying. Another question. I don't like this. Your early posts are indicative of a semi-active scum. Sheeping, question posts, and rehashing things already said multiple times. Notice the similarity between the two. He attacks us for asking questions (later on denies that they provide any discussion whatsoever), and falls into the same "semi-active lurker" category he's sniffing about. I will ignore the quality of his arguments, which I personally think are horrible, and will look more towards their similarity. From his case against me:A one-liner. A question that really doesn't accomplish anything. In other words, a useless post. Also, your next post doesn't address his response although he responded right after and you posted within 30 minutes of his response in a pretty light thread. For someone who is telling other people to not post useless posts, you aren't doing a good job of it yourself. Looks more like you are trying to just be active while off the radar. In other words, you are a semi-active lurker who has bad post quality. Sounds like characteristics of a certain alignment. From his case against Djoref:A two sentence, two question post. I don't like these. They are worthless. Also, this question came quite a bit later after darthpunk already was asking questions about joking. You seem to be sheeping onto darth's case against kush. Your early posts are indicative of a semi-active scum. Sheeping, question posts, and rehashing things already said multiple times. See the similarity, especially the bolded part? It seems that he has this "semi-active scum" cake recipe that he is using to sniff out scum. He also calls us out on our posting quality, in my case saying it is bad. I won't address his next post towards me because I've already done so, and because it doesn't increase his scumminess , as "bad cases =/= scum" (although it pisses me off). Anyways, now to the main stuff. He has a case against me and Djoref, for pretty much the same reasoning. Yet, check out what his next post on Djoref is: On September 29 2012 01:55 debears wrote:@Djoref On September 28 2012 15:22 Djodref wrote: @DarthPunk
For your information, i consider the comments of debears on my posts legitimate. Let me say that I even don't like them. Currently reading the guides and older game analysis. Please pm marv for help. The coaches are great Wtf??? What ?? Where is his case against Djoref?? He goes from a scummy-looking sheep with one liners to a "townie who should pm marv for help"? Could he have forgotten that Djoref was one of his main suspicions? Inconsistency #2
Note that I no longer think that his defense of SDM is scummy. I've gone over that a few times and I admit that it can also come from a townie perspective. To summarize, here are the main inconsistencies in his play that scream to me SCUM: 1) He had a FOS on kush, then hurried on to defend him, in the manner I've shown above. I cannot fathom for the life of me having a FOS on someone and suddenly feel like I have to address an exaggeration on that person before I actually address the case. 2) He completely absolves Djoref for absolutely no reason. Townies do not throw around suspicions only to insta-drop them. 3) The other supporting arguments I've shown above.debears is SCUM!##vote debears Hi z bozon. Inconsistencies do not make someone scum. Also it's quite funny how you are so certain this early in the game. To summarize this awesome post: your case is not strong. you are overconfident in your scumread. But oh they can. Scum can't genuinely scumhunt, and will usually make mistakes in doing so. This early in the game, debears has managed to quickly change his mind about pursuing scum not once, but twice. Him just forgetting all about Djoref and basically assuming him to be town was just ??SDFG ?A?SDF?A?SDF?. His inconsistencies to me look more scummy then townie, especially when looking at how repetitive his arguments are. Who do you think is a better lynch then, kush? Grace us with a case. I would like to know how I changed my mind twice on scumhunting. Just because someone looks scummy, we don’t need to bash their heads in with the same evidence over and over and over again. In kush’s case, Darth had gone overboard and was sufficiently bashing in kush’s head by himself. What’s the point in me picking up a club and going after him when he was afk? In Djo’s case, I called him out for the quality of his posting. He is a newbie. I decided it was best to not attack him and let him actually get into the game. As I said, I don’t read too much into early posts. Also, the reason why I “changed my mind” is that Z-boson was becoming a scum read to me. His OMGUS FOS set off alarms in my head. His posts since then are picking out only the mafia motivations or stating the townie motivations and instantly discarding them. It is hard to split my focus on 3 people at a time, so I’d rather worry about Z-Bo and Kush than chase a newbie around. Alright on to another post + Show Spoiler +QUOTE]On September 29 2012 06:41 Z-BosoN wrote: kush this "act" you are playing is not helping you, and is not helping town. Man the fuck up and make cases against people, try to defend yourself. I'd much rather lynch debears because I find the arguments against him to be much more substantial than the ones against you, which are mostly meta-based. I disagree with a meta-based lynch when I've provided real arguments against someone else (which, incidentally you shat on. It seems like you actually want to get lynched) If you are town that is. If you are scum, go ahead and keep moaning, I'll gladly choose you over debears. Yet again, he doesn’t like the case against kush, yet one of the main parts of his scumread on me was that I defended kush. + Show Spoiler + On September 29 2012 10:28 Z-BosoN wrote:
READ
An interesting snippet from the op: Show nested quote +Play to win. This means you play your best to help your team win while you are alive and in the game. However, this does not mean that you should try to win by being a jerk to the other players so they all want to quit playing. So, read my exchange with him. I try a billion times to help him, and what does he do? Choose to mock me case and be insulting. That's not playing to win if he's town. His sudden change of attitude probably came from a mod-warning, due to what I've quoted, and I'll assume this to be true. Now I have two train of thoughts that I'm killing myself over: 1) Lynch him. He's bad to have in the endgame and is a detriment to the town, no matter his alignment. His change of attitude might have come from his scummy friends, because I sure as hell couldn't sway him. 2) Assume he is a townie. Why can we do that? Because I am almost certain that his change of attitude came from a mod-warning. If he was mafia he wouldn't have gotten a mod-warning, because his play could have very well been some schematics or whatever. However, there is no town-motivation for his play whatsoever, and the way he mocked me is a completely infant behavior that does not go with a "play-to-win" scenario. However... There is one instance where he could have gotten a mod-warning as mafia. Observe this post: Show nested quote +On September 29 2012 07:44 kushm4sta wrote: debears I saved you bro...scumteam 4 lyfe If debears is indeed mafia, he would have gotten a mod-warning for basically giving in his teammate. This makes a lot of sense, if we can assume he got a mod-warning. And SO I propose.... We lynch him. If I am correct in my assessment and he flips scum, then debears is most likely also scum and kush managed to ruin the game. If he flips town, then we are down someone who will be a detriment to the town, so I'm confident he is a good lynch for us right now. ' This post…..Not only is it an association case, it’s an association case BASED ON MOD WARNINGS and assuming a mod warning off one random post of kush’s, especially when that post references the scum team that I was on with kush in the last game… Boson is going out of his way to pin me as scum, especially before kush even flips….I don’t get this. Next post, + Show Spoiler +On September 29 2012 11:03 Z-BosoN wrote:Show nested quote +On September 29 2012 10:36 debears wrote: @kush
The ambiguous statement i made qbout you in the start of my vote post was addressed to your feeling of hoplessness despite your early enthusiasm
@k boson
You're association case is assuming way too much. Use ockhams razor. We can't assume modwarnings. That is ridiculous. Especially when using that reason to cherrypick his posts to create an association case That only adds to the fact that I already have a strong scumread of you. Whatever his alignment, I'm pushing for you next. So he says two things here. 1) That the post he quoted “added” to his scumread. Then he makes NO MENTION of why it does. 2) He specifically states that he is going for me no matter the outcome. Why has he already done this without seeing the flip? Seems like he knows kush’s alignment and doesn’t have to consider what is going on here today… Next post On September 29 2012 11:32 Z-BosoN wrote: DP, did you read my exchange with him? It's pointless discussing with him. I think it would be more productive if you would read my case on debears and see if you agree with it. I don’t understand why Boson is lobbying his case against me still. It is a weak case based on mafia assumptions only. I hate this kind of play. If your case is good, people will believe it and vote for it. He is trying so hard to have his notions confirmed. Final part of this (thank god) On September 29 2012 14:12 Z-BosoN wrote: They are probably just echoing the suspicion I posted earlier, concerning my assumption on mods. It's a theory I have in case he pops scum. Don't treat it as an argument. Treat my case as an argument. Everyone who’s experience knows association cases are dumb without a flip unless it’s late game. You are making an early game association case and you make a huge post about it. How is that not an argument? Now you have everyone saying “debears is likely scum”. FOS Z-BosonIf kush did not implode this game, I would be voting for Z-Boson right now. [/QUOTE]
So your best argument against me is pointing out 1 sentence which was stated at a time I was inactive(sleeping) and using it out of context to confirm your thought that I'm scum. Your whole argument is that I copied an idea that Darth didn't expand on and expanded on it. An idea that was one sentence, which could be easily missed with the focus on kush.
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Also, my case on corrosion had distinctly different ideas from Z-Bo's
Z-Bo wanted him to explain his accusations on Darth.
I wanted him to explain his vote and his terrible reasoning which came way after, besides the other scummy stuff he had done.
I guessed that DP was suspicious of corrosion because I was and the corrosion case had evidence. That's WIFOM
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Ah you're right on that one. Compare my case to remedy's. Still different points, especially corrosion's statment about the "town getting lucky".
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FYI guys
Won't be here for the last 30 min before lynch
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@Djo
Notice how he doesn't address the defense of kush to comment only on the WIFOM. He really cannot mention or comment on that point. It incriminates him too much. And on a side note, I came at him with pure WIFOM arguments and he doesn't even have the decency of OGMusing me ? My guess is that he cannot build a case against me for two reasons:
his scumslip about me being town. When I get lynch and turns out town, people are going to remember this scumslip. he doesn't want to be called mafia for OMGusing. But I would totally deserve it honestly. If someone was tunneling me as much as I tunnel debears, I bet I would have do some OMGus.
It seems your whole case is based on WIFOM with kush's statements and then me not OMGUSing you after your continual WIFOM. Your also forgetting that your a noob. I can easily see you making the mistake of using WIFOM in the case of noobie town. I can also see you as mafia using a WIFOM argument to lynch someone. It's a null read.
The noobie town explanation is the exact reason I got away with a big defense case on thrawn early game and sheeping on him later. It's hard to distinguish from mafia motivation.
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@Djo There are 3 possibilities I see from a mafia side.
1) The mafia planned a bus and stuck with the plan 2) The mafia was afk at the time the case started to really build up 3) The mafia were afraid of starting a counter wagon
The most likely one to me are 2 or 3, but speculating is just WIFOM. We don't know.
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Also, the part about him cracking under pressure. Yet again, WIFOM
For anyone cracking, there are 3 explanations
1) He actually cracked as town 2) He actually cracked as mafia 3) He faked cracking to seem like a town cracking
Since kush is now confirmed, only 2 or 3 apply
I would say 3 is more likely, after seeing him play last game. He stated multiple times he was willing to take a bus but that he would still hard counter any cases Jacob and I made against him. He never showed signs of cracking last game.
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I'll be delighted if he turns scum
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.@djo
If you assume he was trying to win, trying to associate himself wi th me wiuld be perfect sense. Kush would want to save as much of the situation as he could. Framing me would be a good idea to cause a mislynch. .on't believe the words of a confirmed scum. It never works out
Posting from phone. Can't correct spelling well
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@Alsn
Thanks for playing. I hope to play with you more soon!
And yeah inactives seem to have hurt back to back newbie games :/. Doesn't exactly help the improvement process.
I'm going to go over every filter again, definitely have to reevaluate all my reads with both flips.
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@Djo
On October 03 2012 11:30 Djodref wrote:Good morning everybody ! [joke] Please have a look at my last post about Lesrah. I've just corrected the formatting I think I deserve some town credit for this post. I also was the one asking the most for news about Lesrah in this game ! [/joke] On a serious note, I think it adds more weight to my explanations about kush state of mind and why he exploded. Could you imagine yourself win a game when you have two votes and serious scumslip against you, your partner has also one vote and the last one is just the lurkiest player you have ever seen (all this in the first 24h of the game) ? I'm almost sure he was genuinely cracking now. He was so proud of his unkilled, undefeated streak. That made him gamethrow and give away his partner. So, debears, how about you concede now ? This game is kinda lame anyway... @AlsnI'm sorry, I should not have been sheeping like this. Rest in peace !
I will keep repeating my points against your case Djo. 1) WIFOM 2) Believing the words of a confirmed scum
Players throwing the game like that would most likely lead to harsh punishment for that player. Kush has played through plenty games, and I'm sure he wants to play more based on the time he puts in (look at the length of his filters from previous games). Also, throwing the game like that would ruin his rep with other players on the forum. Do you actually believe he do this because he cracked?
If you really believe I'm scum, then vote for me. Then, in the meantime, disregard everything I say (in other words, completely ignore me) and post other cases while you wait for me to be lynched. If you keep tunneling me so hard, you are going to be a day behind in finding the last mafia member.
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@Shady
On October 03 2012 10:01 Shady Sands wrote: Alright, since Lesrah wasn't posting through D2 then that means that if debears was the other scum there was no other scum trying to stop his lynch. Hence the lack of opposition to his lynch becomes less of a town-tell to me. This, coupled with the earlier case on him (which he hasn't adequately responded to, imo) makes me view him as scum.
## Vote debears
Heading out for the night. If I don't make it back by daypost, cop please check omni or remedy and remember it is possible GF is last mafia. That's all, glhf.
If you believe I'm the last scum, why wouldn't you nightcheck me?
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Ah. good point about not needing it to get me lynched
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btw. did any1 actually get rbed last night?
If no one did, then its pretty safe to assume the last mafia member is either a framer or godfather.
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ebwop
combined with the facts that the first 2 members were goons.
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Lol djo
@possible vig Don't waste your nightkill on me. Just get me lynched instead.
I would highly doubt that kushs bus was planned that early, especially considering that one of the mafia did not show up. Why would they mafia out one half of their team d1 (planned that is)
It was a legitmate question. Something i didn't understand. I never said he was cop. I was wondering what his line of thinking as cop would be.
Finally, blue sniping? Please. If i was mafia I'd be so busy defending myself i wouldnt be worried about that shit.
Anyways, I'm going to spend the next 48 hours or so going over every filter, including all metas. I will most likely post my top scumread before i am lynches. Anything i post will be to help the town as best i can
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Hey guys, through meta research and research of posts from this game,
I have concluded that Darth and SDM are about as town as you can get without being 100% confirmed. Stutters is also pretty town after research. All three have trends that follow their town meta. Darth was also the first one to push kush hardcore. With lesrah not even making an appearance, it is unlikely darth would push his own teammate so hard early d1 if he was mafia. I'd say the same for SDM and Stutters.
I have not looked in Z-Bo yet.
Shady doesn't have enough posting to really make a read.
The rest are noobie/lurking.
Also, I want to address the misbelief that there is a jk. First, townies are supposed to claim after being rbed, which we get notifications of from a jk or rb this game
If you are targeted by a roleblocker or a jailkeeper then you get a message about this the following day simply saying "You were roleblocked".
Since no one claimed rb, it either means there was no rbing (likely), or the last mafia got rbed and didn't claim. If there is the jk and he rbed someone d1, we should have him claim right? That most likely means the last mafia was rbed n1. And that means the jk would know who he is.
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ebwop:
if no one claimed, and assuming that a scum did not get rbed night 1, then there is no jk.
Please tell me if i need to clarify
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Thats what Im saying, if scum got rbed, then jk knows who and gg
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also, jk don't claim until after n1, just block the same person if you exist
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ebwop n2 :/ I'm mega fail right now
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@Darth Thanks for playing. I realized that you were town too late, when it was staring me in the face the whole time. Hope to play with you again soon!
@Z-Bo
The problem with just attacking omni with the town read is a problem. Djo and others have done the same (I know djo has stuck up for other newbies, citing them as newbie town). They are having a problem of reading too much into each other's noobieness. Imo, it's one of the worst things you can do as noobieness.
Also, Djo has used his noobieness as an excuse multiple times. After I check your meta and ur filter z-bo I'll work on everyone else. Gotta make sure the last of the contributors are what I think they are
@Shady Can you post some more please, scumhunting-wise?
You must realize the person you took over for was fairly scummy himself and we need to get some actual reads on you.
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Alright guys I will be back later tonight/early tomorrow at the latest with my thoughts on Z-Bo and the 2 noobies (Omni and Djo and RemedySC)
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@Z-Bo
after looking at your meta, and combining it with the posting from this game, I'm having a town read on you atm (I took a long hard look lol....wait til post game where you see my notes)
I will examine the remaining four now
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Yeah. I looked at Djo's whole filter. I can post my findings if you want. I'd say they're inconclusive and rely on too much speculation. It's long
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Right now, my order is most likely from most to least scummy. I'll take a quick glance at omni's filter. There isn't much to say on shady since he hasn't posted much since being replaced
1) Omni 2) Shady 3) Djo 4)Remedy
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ebwop
shady at 2 is explained by corrosion's post and shady's lurking.
Djo has seemed to care about the game and the town's decision (at least in respect to lynching me)
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I'm pressed on time. I have a midterm at 12 and practice at 2. I'm doing what I can :/
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Alright, from what I see on omniscient:
1) He doesn't seem to care too much who the town lynchs 2) His post quality is low, often concentrated on the town read of another or insignificant matters (such as nk analysis, who's available for posting in his time zone) 3) His statement that long posts are bad
One thought though He has completely vanished. He is most likely at threat of a modkill. If he comes back at last second before lynch and casts a vote, I say lynch him. If not, we might as well let the mods deal with him.
If he doesn't post of vote before deadline, I feel like shady would be more justified. Or me lol
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hahahahahaha. i was like wtf???
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Alright Sonic,
On Djo 1) Eager to ask for town credit for asking kush a question 2) Playing the newbie card 3) His statement early game about confident that we would mislynch day 1, then being so confident in kush being scum later, although he agreed with kush early and then later switched to kush after all the votes were piled on. -in this case, the last mafia would not want to bus kush with lesrah being totally afk. Would make sense that mafia would wait to vote kush 4) Eagerness to jump on kush's WIFOM statments on me (I find that mafia would be most likely to use the advantage that kush gave him) 5) Never really addressing the Alsn case (he did after the lynch but odd that he didn't do it during the lynch). All he said was that he was ok with lynching Alsn----shows signs of not caring that much 6) Stated that he wanted to drop discussion of me today yet continues to bring me up 7) Him bringing up lesrah multiple times. Seemed to worried about how lesrah would be handled 8) Him FOS corrosion day two, then in one post unFOSing corrosion, giving a town read on corrosion, then accusing me of trying to mislynch corrosion 9) Asking for a vig to nk me when I could be easily lynched today. Would be a wasted bullet 10) Trying to start the newbie town read on the other noobies so that he fits in with them. For someone so active he seems quite determined to mark himself as a newbie 11) This quote
On October 02 2012 19:22 Djodref wrote: EBWOP: I'm not going to be here for the lynch deadline so I'm not going to be able to check if I can safely stay on debears or not
Notice the wording. Townies don't care about looking "safe" with their votes. The care about lynching their biggest scumread.
That's pretty much it. All of them (if not most) can be considered newbie town mistakes. I left out some of the speculation stuff. It shouldn't play a role against him.
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I'll be back after my midterm
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Why did djo head off like that?
I thought I was his top scumread???????
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ebwop:
nvm....i thought lynch was today....that confused me so much.
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After I looked through Omni's filter one by one, I do still think he is the most scummy looking player
I'm going to point out some main posts that I don't feel have been addressed.
+ Show Spoiler +On October 02 2012 08:01 Omniscient4983 wrote: Show nested quote +
4) Be decisive.
The thread doesn't need to know every thought you have. You're talking about this person, then that person, then that guy over there. It's not that these cases aren't truthful/don't hold merit. I just find all of it to be a bit excessive. I apologize if it's inherently wrong to view it in such a manner. On September 29 2012 00:46 Omniscient4983 wrote: Sorry for making my introduction then disappearing. The game began late at night, and I had to sleep + attend university this morning. I'm reading up on all of this and will make my conclusions shortly.
In these two posts, notice the defensive, apologetic feel to them. He accuses me and then says "I apologize if my views are wrong" (not confident, a pretty neutral, laid back accusation). In the second, he refers to the one liner that DP posted about people leaving after intro posts.
Here's darth's post
On September 28 2012 10:36 DarthPunk wrote: So is everyone just going to drop their welcome posts and then afk?
Notice the time stamp. He brought that up over 12 hours before Omni made that post. It was a statement that DP, nor anyone else pursued. Yet, Omni went out of the way, at a time when kush was being grilled, to apologize.
and finally
On October 02 2012 05:10 Omniscient4983 wrote: Show nested quote +
I'm not jumping the wagon--I've always thought Debears would be a candidate for lynch. There are many points against him, including the association / defense of Kush, townie reference, meta-based arguments, etc... the only thing as of late that erks me is all the different cases. It seems as if he's diverting attention / spreading chaos to make the case against him seem insignificant as compared to those of others. Z-BosoN made an extensive case against him--reference it if you'd like. The long cases don't so much confirm the suspicion as they do add to it.
He uses Z-Bo's extensive case against me and my use of extensive cases against me (contradiction yes?). He claims I was spreading chaos, although he found the content of the posts acceptable. It seems he didn't like that someone might snoop up his alley.
He never even addressed my case on him. He just said that extensive cases are bad....
He brought up a big post on DP that was a summary of Kush's and DP's argument timeline. He gave a close to neutral read (he said "slightly suspicious" on kush)
He brought up the n1 nk WIFOM (Z-Bo I recall that you did this when you were scum in an earlier game. I think you'll agree that this is something scum can do to look like contributing).
He has been more concerned with giving lurkers newbie town reads.
He hasn't pushed a case. He just votes and scoots. He says that other's arguments are good but he doesn't explain why he thinks so.
I would quote more but his filter is small.
So, when I go down to basic thinking, I am looking at a few questions.
Is he scumhunting? No. (pointing out 1 supposed scumslip, aka mine, does not make up for the rest of his posts) Is contributing anything to the main discussion points in a positive manner? No. Have his actions indicated that he is trying to actively help the town? No.
Looking at his filter, I don't see much, if any, townie motivation for his posts.
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@remedy
That feels like too many assumptions. It doesnt explain his filter
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That is a possibility I'd consider.
As town, he could simply be trying to push harder on the three he think are scum.
As i said, the mafia motivation is what i see is more likely due to his filter
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That doesnt really affect his motivations either way djo. As mafia, i was more inclined to give town reads. Look at z-b os filter of his scum day. I saw him say multiple times that someone is town. Mafia are generally more comfortable doing so since they know that someone is town.
That said, he has said other newbies look town to him. Its weird since its hard to distinguish newbie town from newbie scum (the very reason i got away d1 last game with an obvious scumslip)
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It does Sonic.
My main point on it is that it's something that looks like he is contributing. Instead, he is stating the obvious then trying to turn it into a WIFOM-go-round (or something like that).
Ultimately, it's not a post that helps town in any way
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@Shady
On October 03 2012 10:01 Shady Sands wrote: Alright, since Lesrah wasn't posting through D2 then that means that if debears was the other scum there was no other scum trying to stop his lynch. Hence the lack of opposition to his lynch becomes less of a town-tell to me. This, coupled with the earlier case on him (which he hasn't adequately responded to, imo) makes me view him as scum.
## Vote debears
Heading out for the night. If I don't make it back by daypost, cop please check omni or remedy and remember it is possible GF is last mafia. That's all, glhf.
What did you mean by I did not adequately respond? Can you point out specific things about the case against me that I did not address?
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@Djo
I appreciate the answers. As I said before, we have more pressing suspects right now. I'm not too worried about you being scum at this point.
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@Shady
I had some of my own doubts about Z-Bo through most of this game. But, after looking through his filter and his meta, I felt that he is town. What I would like to ask you about your examination on the Z-Bo kush relationship.
What was strange about it? Was it exclusively mafia motivated?
And what do you mean "without any commitment"? I would say him throwing a vote on me and then switching to Omni still shows commitment, just not commitment at one person.
If you could expand on this, especially with the amount of posts Z-Bo has, that would be great.
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@djo
I would like you to read through zbos other games and then read through his filter once again.
Tell me what you think of his meta.
If you are serious with your fos of him, please follow up
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@Djo
Considering you were third on my scum list, and numbers 1(Omni) and 2 (SS) aren't sensible lynches atm, you are now my top scumread. Omni will most likely get modkilled. SS has posted a case using a similar line of thinking that I did earlier. Also, he took head on the most/2nd most townie person here. What kind of scum would do that when the scum could focus on me, omni, you, or stutters and get easy mislynches?
You, on the other hand, sheeped onto his case, which would be easy for mafia to do, as SS would take the blame. You just repeat Shady's reasoning, and now when Z-Bo attacks you, you instead just transfer back to me after FOSing Z-Bo. Your actions don't make sense from a townie perspective. They make plenty from mafia perspective.
That, considering the rest of your actions this game, give me a strong mafia read.
##Vote: Djodref
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Also
@Shady and SDM
Would you like to see my notes on Z-Bo in terms of meta?
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@SDM
SS dropped in with a vote for me then left. He hadn't posted much, so I had to use corrosion's posts as a baseline.
If Omni does make an appearance, thus ending his threat of mk, I will vote for omni.
If Omni doesn't make an appearance, and he is mafia, then the modkill will handle him.
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is shady not coming back?
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and btw i will be gone for the hour before the lynch. Approx 10 min before lynch I can check on my phone and consolidate if we don't feel the djo is suitable/can't consolidate enough votes.
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......lurkers + majority lynch....What shall we do here
In the event that Stutters and Omni don't make an appearance, can we change the number of majority votes required?
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I pmed thrawn about changing the number of required votes in case of the 2 super lurks not showing up....waiting until then to decide the best course of action
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@Z-Bo
I agree about Djo. Your points are similar to ones I had in my notes plus you add a few more. Remember that last game I suddenly turned on thrawn, the most townie person, when I was scum to secure a mislynch. This feels similar to that with Djo.
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Stutters! Where have you been?
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If omni comes back, I will vote switch to him
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ok. well. this is news. any counter claims?
Also, if you were cop and you were smart enough to breadcrumb, why did you play the noob card so hard?
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Also, Djo
Why did you check remedy and not me or darthpunk or z-bo n1?
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Yeah you're right SDM
If mafia claimed cop, and they were godfather, they would know there's a cop.
If mafia was a framer, they would know there's a cop.
If mafia was a goon, they would be risking a claim on the fact that there would not be a cop when there still could be
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No. I don't see a 100% scenario
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His breadcrumbs go back to d1 when he wasn't under any real pressure. I'd say its way more likely legit than not
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Well here are my lynch rankings right now based on a legit believed rc
1) Omni (if he shows up) 2) Me 3) ??? (Stutters, Z-Bo, SS
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Also, the rc came early enough for us to gather ourselves and make an informed decision. It makes alot of sense.
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Yeah I would agree with that Djo, either that or a framer.
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@SDM
How so? I could see it if we were talking 2 scum left. Is this under the assumption that there isn't a godfather and instead a framer or goon lefT?
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Alright guys. I have to go take my midterm. I will check after to see where votes are headed. I'm guessing I'll be the one lynched. In that case, I am leaving my thoughts on Z-Bo from looking at his case in terms of meta and this game.
Reasons I feel he is scum: 1) He avoided the kush case d1 until the kush "I don't care implosion". 2) He defended kush himself by saying the slip wasn't really a slip and that meta is bad to use for cases 3) He attacked me for "soft defending kush" despite him actually defending kush 4) He wanted me lynched instead of kush although he said he felt like kush was scummier (after early statements saying kush wasn't that scummy) 5) Wanted me lynched over Alsn although he felt Alsn was way scummier (He said along the lines of 10X more scummy than me although he was so indecisive all d2 about us) 6) He said he would make sure I got lynched d2 despite kush's alignment, and especially so using his mod warning association case. 7) D2 comes and he wants to stop the arguments between us for a while 8) D2 he says he will get me lynched d3 no matter what Alsn flips 9) Now, d3 is here and he instead wants to push someone else, suddenly seeing the townie motivation in my previous posts and using meta to defend me, although I don't see a situation in which I don't get lynched. 10) His main argument against me day one was inconsistency on who I scumhunted and then consistency in my arguments against them. That's the same exact reasoning I used on thrawn last game!!!!!!!! Also, he noticed that kush and Alsn didn't actually do scumhunting, yet he saw me as scummier.
Let me break up the scum and townie motivations as I see them 1-4) Townie - He actually thought his case was that great against me and thought I was actually scum. Mafia - Lesrah was a no show. Kush is under heat. He doesn't have to directly support kush. Instead, he can push another lynch candidate. Finds it too hard, and instead bandwagons before the deal is sealed 5-8) Townie - His opinion changed quickly each day as he saw better evidence against others and realized he was wrong Mafia - He wants to keep me around as a fall back and seem like he is decisive and after someone. He wants to use me as an excuse for the nks til he can find someone else 9) Townie - Sees that I most likely am not mafia and will actually try to help me (If I see a in depth case actually defending me I would more likely believe this) Mafia - Wants town cred knowing that I will very likely be lynched. 10) Townie - Confirmation Bias Mafia - Attack an easier active target with a believable case (set me up when kush did the "I saved you debears" and "scumteam 4 lyfe"
Btw - It's pretty obvious that kush was trying very hard to set me up. I have been thinking of why. I have to read through the whole d1 before I come to my main conclusion on that.
I will probably look over this list later to see if it really still says which is greater.
In terms of meta, I'm still having trouble noticing stuff (maybe I don't really know what to look for - any suggestions there?)
As town in LVII - 1) was much more indecisive. 2)Addressed everyone all the time it seemed. 3) Made only a couple of big cases. 4)Didn't use much red text at all (should I be considering that in meta reads?) and definitely not repeatedly on the same person. 5) He did get on Hapa early d1 for defending someone else (not saying that I'm hapa but maybe I'm on the right track ) 6) He stresses not scumhunting in his main cases (in other words, doesn't worry so much about who and the exact basis of the arguments as long as they are sound) 7) Later in the game, he starts defending others more often 8) His main concern is differentiating between bad town play and scum play (his main concern this game has been looking only really at mafia motivations and disregarding townie motivations) 9) Got defensive when called out for being suspicious without reasoning.
As scum in NMM XXIV 1)He's aggressive with calling other's scum (using red text with that) 2) He says he wants reads shared (he asked me for all of mine this game) 3) He didn't want to bus 4) He read too much into posts, trying to nitpick and exaggerate arguments (kinda like this game with SDM early and then the emotions wording with Alsn) 5) His flip flops on his top scumreads (saying one moment they are confirmed scum then saying they aren't that scummy) 6)He worried about the reasoning behind nk (none of that this game) 7) Main scum reads were on inconsistencies/those playing badly (sounds like my case) 8) He makes long posts but has little substance in them His makes a clear effort in calling a person scum in these posts. For instance, saying scumslip? Is he scum wanting us to believe that? (does the same in his main case against me) 9) Gets defensive and flames when he is accused (sounds like him after I made an early case on him. He immediately tried to discredit me)
This was alot of research. But I feel like he has mixed his town meta with his scum meta well. That, and the fact that I've been suspicious of him all game, is driving me nuts. There is both scum and town motivation is his posts, and he is following patterns from both games.
Add on to this, in his scum game he wasn't quite as invested in terms of time. However, he had 2 other scum with him til late in the game. In this game, mafia would have to be active to keep mislynches open.
Also, about SS
I thought about the motivations behind corrosion asking for a replacement. It doesn't make much sense from a mafia perspective. He said he didn't have time to read through everything. A townie has to read through everything. It would make sense for a townie to ask for a replacement. A mafia, however, does not actually have to read everything in detail. They can take quicker looks at stuff and keep the game going on as before.
And finally,
SDM is my strongest town read besides Djo at this point. I'd say trust those two to the rest of town
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##vote z-boson
Posting from my phone. Have practice and can't read. Axe omni if he posts befoee lynch
This will at least give power to swing. I feel like he is less town than we feel ss and djo both have seen what i have seen from him.
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On October 06 2012 06:52 Z-BosoN wrote:Oh lol. Thought there was. Anyways, forgot about this one. From my POV n1, me and DP were the most likely hit targets. This is me trying to bait it towards me: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/postmessage.php?quote=445&topic_id=370487It makes more sense than for scum to have shot DP twice. Scum prob thought the medic was saving me. My view on Djodref's claim is, unless we get to mylo where things get nasty, we should encounter it as legit. Shady Sands, in my eyes, is the only one who has a fair chance of being scum. We lynch debears, we lynch SS, we should be fine. Please don't be retarded and still find me scum after this. DP had a town meta read on me, and he's played in all my games. Much more trustworthy than a debears "lololol scum ZB posts in red!1" one. Now that the pressure is off, read my filter carefully and try to think why in the godamn hell would I take so muhc trouble to switch between townies, when it's 100 times easier (and safer) for me to stick with one. Also read my cases and tell me how in a million years they can even be compared to the ones on debears. Also, my claim makes a lot of sense. It's why I've been more aggressive and confident this game. There's this one other post I recall where I stated I had my own reasons for going after debears, but I can't find it, don't remember what to control+F and I don't think it's worth the trouble. My original plan was to claim having been shot n1 and using that as an argument to go full throttle against debears, whom I've been tunneling during day 1, but then I had decided this was a pretty bad argument and would lose my ticket to not being nk (I was thinking that there could be SK). Anyways, we should be good now. If debears or shady sands is medic, claim and seal the game 100%. Otherwise, just stick with debears and we should be fine.
Why would you say you were vote switching among townies when you think I'm certain scum or shady is?
Definite scumslip
##vote z-boson
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But if you arent scum, you just called me townie when you think I'm scum
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Odd how your play style is suddenly changing. Suddenly calling everyone stupid and flaming. Reminds me of when you were scum.
Lol you are using wifom to defend yourself by saying scum wouldnt do that. Terrible defense reasoning. You totally disregard how suddenly d3 comes and you don't want to lynch me until you are under pressure
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I'm not the one with two votes. How am i squirming?
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I rescind my arguments. ##unvote ##vote shadysands
Got him. Jumped way too easily on that fake scumslip claim
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My argument was illogical. You jumped on it.
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But how do you explain the lack of a nk day 1? You don't believe his claim? There arent any kind of counter claims of a medix protect or another vet.
You make an illogical statment about his veteran claim and jump on an illogical scumslip.
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Since there was no nk n1, and there is no medic claim, that confirms that Z-Bo is town. The only scenario where that is false is one in which mafia did not send in a nk n1. So, based on what has happened so far, Z-Bo is confirmed. His statements make sense. His posts indicate a vet's thinking.
On October 06 2012 07:49 Shady Sands wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2012 07:15 Z-BosoN wrote: However, we still have three lynches till defeat. debears -> shady -> Djodref should seal us the game. I cannot for the life of me view SDM and RSC as scum right now. If one of you is, well, well played, win deserved. Now all it takes is for town to put on reality goggles, realize why it is dumb for me to be scum, and seal the deal. Why are you pushing for lynch trains already when no one on your list has flipped yet? All that does is give scum an easy way to NK people who everyone thinks is confirmed townie to setup the best LYLO situation possible. On the RCs: A cop RC is barely worth more than a Mason/Confirmed Townie RC at this point, since it's likely the last remaining scum is GF/Framer. Likewise, a vet RC is essentially a null tell, because if there is a GF/Framer, there is no reliable way to check ZB. (If there is a GF, Z-Boson might be a false negative; if there is a Framer, ZB might be a false positive). What seals the deal in terms of ZB's further scumminess is how he thinks Debears and or me are the last medic, and are inviting us to claim. That just smells to me like a blue-sniping attempt. Remember at this point scum have to kill the medic fast, or else the game is over for them.Finally, I am deeply dissatisfied with a no-lynch. In a situation where the last scum is trying to stay hidden, no-lynching is exactly what they want since they never have to "put their money where their mouth is" in terms of losing towncred by pushing a mislynch. I am going to repeat this to everyone: at this point I do not see how you can a) assign any weight to ZB's vet claim or b) view the rest of his filter as anything but scum. ##Vote Z-Boson
Here's the deal though, the medic, if he does not claim, allows Z-Bo to become confirmed town. If he believes that Z-Bo is indeed town, then thats fine. But if he believes Z-Bo is scum, as you think so, then not claiming would allow a scum to hide. See what I mean? After night, the medic should probably claim and give the scum a hard decision on who to shoot on the next night, if the game even goes that long.
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@SDM
Why did you not vote for me before lynch? You, of all players, should know that we needed a lynch there, especially me, since I came off scummy d1 and have since been at the forefront of attention because of it.
You were there.
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@djo
If there's mylo btw me, sdm, and rsc, something really random would have to happen. I would like sdm to address my question though. His refusal to change votes onto me was weird
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Actually if zbo is town, you are likely the last scum shady : p
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And djo
I still find it weird that he would park his vote on a to be modkilled person when I'm sitting there with 4 votes. He should have out the last vote on me if he is town
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@Djo
actually, not lynching me works in good favor of mafia, especially since they know I'm town. I am the scummiest looking player. If they don't have to lynch me, they can get away with another nk, while everyone thinks its me.
I was a lynch that should have happened. Now, we are allowing the last mafia to get another nk while I live until I'm lynched.
That's why I find it suspicious.
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And seriously
stop with this concede bullshit. A competitor will never concede. You are going to sound like an idiot for saying it so many times when I flip town
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Lol. Prepare for the worst then . Anyways, since I am going to be lynched, I will get to know who this last damn mafia is early...I'm dieing to know lol
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@shady
Um your constant attacks on him? You voted for me early d3 (that's the previous day right?) and then just disappeared. Then, you vote Z-Bo and disappear again. You don't seem to care too much about who gets lynched. Your most contributing post was a meta read on Alsn that ended up being wrong. Also, you refuse to believe Z-Bo's rc but believe Djos. Z-Bo's rc is extremely likely to be true with the lack of a medic claim and the lack of a nk night1. Z-Bo's actions and words have indicated a veteran's mindset.
When I pointed out his "scumslip", you were way too eager to jump on it.
On October 06 2012 08:22 Shady Sands wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2012 08:10 debears wrote:On October 06 2012 06:52 Z-BosoN wrote:Oh lol. Thought there was. Anyways, forgot about this one. From my POV n1, me and DP were the most likely hit targets. This is me trying to bait it towards me: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/postmessage.php?quote=445&topic_id=370487It makes more sense than for scum to have shot DP twice. Scum prob thought the medic was saving me. My view on Djodref's claim is, unless we get to mylo where things get nasty, we should encounter it as legit. Shady Sands, in my eyes, is the only one who has a fair chance of being scum. We lynch debears, we lynch SS, we should be fine. Please don't be retarded and still find me scum after this. DP had a town meta read on me, and he's played in all my games. Much more trustworthy than a debears "lololol scum ZB posts in red!1" one. Now that the pressure is off, read my filter carefully and try to think why in the godamn hell would I take so muhc trouble to switch between townies, when it's 100 times easier (and safer) for me to stick with one. Also read my cases and tell me how in a million years they can even be compared to the ones on debears. Also, my claim makes a lot of sense. It's why I've been more aggressive and confident this game. There's this one other post I recall where I stated I had my own reasons for going after debears, but I can't find it, don't remember what to control+F and I don't think it's worth the trouble. My original plan was to claim having been shot n1 and using that as an argument to go full throttle against debears, whom I've been tunneling during day 1, but then I had decided this was a pretty bad argument and would lose my ticket to not being nk (I was thinking that there could be SK). Anyways, we should be good now. If debears or shady sands is medic, claim and seal the game 100%. Otherwise, just stick with debears and we should be fine. Why would you say you were vote switching among townies when you think I'm certain scum or shady is? Definite scumslip ##vote z-boson Wait, I didn't see this coming in. Wow. Yeah, everyone who is still on the fence about ZB: READ THE ABOVE TEXT PLEASE
You didn't even let him explain himself. Instead, you hoot and holler at everyone. Your actions are scummy, the scummiest out of anyone here.
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@Djo
I would say I'm the best lynch to clarify my alignment for a possible mylo. Other than that
1) SS - his actions indicate scum 2) RSC - I gotta look through his filter again but he hasn't been too active 3) SDM - His refusal to vote for me for the lynch is weird as I said before. He is less confirmed due to the two rc's. It would make sense that we don't have a super strong scumread at this point if SDM is indeed scum. However, it would be infering that SDM played lights out. It's still possible though. 4) Djo - you have used the noobie card to shade your scummy actions, but it makes sense from a cop perspective to keep a target off your back. However, this is no actual way to prove your claim (the lack of a counterclaim is good support though). 4) Z-Bo - confirmed town to me unless a medic claims
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Djo did you vote him yet?
Also spoilers would be appreciated
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The post i mentioned earlier incoming.
Getting back from drinking fortunately i wrote the post when i was sober!
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Aright guys, I'm gonna put something new into the thread. Considering that Djo and Z-Bo are pretty much confirmed at this point, I was wondering why we are having so much trouble this game with finding the last mafia. My conclusions: The last mafia is playing a hell of a game. Looking at this, I've been wondering who is capable of this. At this point, I'd see Z-Bo, SDM, and SS. Z-Bo is confirmed. SS has said some scummy things and is at threat of being lynched.
However, one person has managed to avoid the spotlight throughout the whole game. He has not had anyone actually attack (besides Z-Bo day 1, but that was an argument over the validity of my defense of SDM early).
That person is SDM. Recently, his refusal to vote me in the lynch set off some alarms in my head. I've looked through his filter and found some things that don't make townie sense.
The Association with Kush
After SDM hardcore shut down kush and voted kush, pointing out multiple scumslips, this is all that kush had to say to him
+ Show Spoiler +On September 29 2012 06:33 kushm4sta wrote: sdm you make no sense. I tried hard not to make scumslips last game. this game I did not. because I am not scum.
I don't know if any of you guys have had this experience but when everyone wants to lynch you and you are definitely going to get lynxhed, it just feels like why am I going to waste my time writing cases and making arguments for this shitty town. that's gonna kill me anyway. I'm actually starting to hope I get lynched to teach town a lesson.. all scums put your votes right here. easiest d1 ever I hope you guys win.
Notice how kush does not flame, OMGUS, or insult SDM in any manner here. This is the only time kush addresses Sonic, and he does it in a neutral manner. Compare that to the reactions of kush to Dp (town), Z-Bo (town), and Stutters (town) when they all accused him. To me, Kush made a defense. The only neutral reaction he had to his early accusers is SDM. What this indicates to me is that kush was expecting SDM to attack him, making his post not a reaction but a response to an accusation he knew knew was coming.
Overconfidence
On September 30 2012 04:59 Sonic Death Monkey wrote:In my mind these are good reasons to be suspicious of Debears. We most certainly need to push for more information from other players as well though. If XXVII thaught me anything it was that I have a tendency to get way overconfident in my reads.
This is actually wrong. If anything, it should have taught SDM to be more confident in his reads. He had me pinned down but let me off the hook last game. He stopped pursuing me because of a misunderstanding of thrawn's lynch the last lurker comment.
On October 04 2012 01:46 Sonic Death Monkey wrote: Yeah I agree. I don't think it's guaranteed, overconfidence is a bitch, but it looks like a good start.
Another quote talking about overconfidence. This is about not getting too confident in the endgame and losing because of it. The weird thing is that SDM disappeared after the lynch, on a weekend when he should have more time than the week. Yet, he hasn't posted anything. Is he overconfident? Seems like it. I don't know why either since the whole town has been spinning around in circles since the kush lynch.
Time and Indecision
Recently, SDM has been saying that he hasn't had time to look over filters
+ Show Spoiler +On October 05 2012 23:18 Sonic Death Monkey wrote:D2 voting: Debears by Darth 1-0 Debears by Djo 2-0 Alsn by Darth 1-1 Debears by Alsn 2-1 Debears by Omni 3-1 Alsn by SDM 3-2 Alsn by Debears 3-3 Debears by Boson 4-3 Alsn by Shady 4-4 Unvote + BotN by Boson 3-4 Alsn by Remedy 3-5 Alsn by Djo 2-6 Alsn by Stutters 2-7 Alsn by Boson 2-8 I'd need my conspiracy goggles on to see Boson pushing Alsn here. Read the links, it doesn't looks like Boson tries to nudge the decision in Debears favor. The case doesn't necessarily hinge on this, but it makes it considerably weaker. I'd need more time to read filters...
For someone who has a pretty large filter, time doesn't seem to be a problem for SDM. He continued to post during this time, although he needed more to look at filters.
+ Show Spoiler +On October 05 2012 21:55 Sonic Death Monkey wrote:Show nested quote +On October 05 2012 20:46 Shady Sands wrote:On October 05 2012 20:39 Sonic Death Monkey wrote: But it still makes no sense to me. You assume Boson is scum, thus Debears can't be scum and thus Boson must be scum. Your assumption is your conclusion. No I know Alsn is town. I know ZB is trying to avoid pushing hard for a Debears lynch D2/3 even though he pushed a Debears lynch D1. Thus ZB's case on Debears feels insincere. Thus most of the case on Debears gets thrown out by me. At the same time, I ask why ZB would want to push for a D1 Debears lynch even over Kush. Answer: Save Kush since Lesrah is AFK. I also ask why ZB would suddenly back away D2/D3. Answer: Avoid having town realize that the D1 push on Debears was a mislynch, accrue towncred, survive till endgame. I cannot find any townie motivation why ZB would flip from pushing Debears over Kush D1 to accepting Alsn D2 and FoSing half the town over Debears D3. That's actually an interesting case. It's true Boson ignored the Kush case d1. He had a good case on Debears imo, so I didn't really find it weird he was pushing his own case (we all tend to be biased towards our own cases, at least that's true for me). I need to go back and look up his filter myself. He did switch to Alsn and I can't remember his reasonings. I feel like the individual pieces of evidence you have are not that strong, but they paint an interesting picture. One question I have right off the bat, if it was all a big master plan, why did he initially vote for Debears d2? Seems like it could've caused the noose battle to become one-sided. Anyway, I'll go back and check his filter, I'm not 100% sure of those events. What do you think of the Omni case? Having to read both of your filters I doubt I'll have time to make up my mind on this and I still like it.
Yet again, he says he won't be able to make up his mind on stuff since he doesn't have time. Notice the indecisive tone of those posts.
On October 05 2012 23:34 Sonic Death Monkey wrote:Show nested quote +On October 05 2012 22:55 Z-BosoN wrote: EBWOP lynch him the next day if we decide he is scum. Also, sdm. Save my filter for the night. If you don't have enough time, decide between SS and djodref. This idea to bring up a ridiculous case on me in late day 3 when I'm not even a lynch choice is typical shady's dumb thinking, which mostly manifests itself when he is town. Also, doint ignore the fact he ignored your case. Anyways, I'm leaning slight town on him (plus, corrosion bothered writing a list before he left, as if he genuinely wants to help town. I feel if he were scum, he would just abandon this game and not care). omni seems scummy but is a wasteful lynch if he gets nodkilled, so that only leaves djodref, from my pov. Now that, from a skim of his filter, I can definitely see him as sxum, I want to lynch him atm. I have no idea what to make out of all this. It doesn't look like a bad case but I'm having a feeling the more I look into it, the more farfetched it becomes. Or you are fucking genius. I mean, both the d1 against Debears and the d2 case against Alsn are good. All of us found them so good we voted at least one of them. I'm still leaning Omni, since he's both very scummy and a complete lurker. but I still got a few more minutes to read filters.
More indecisiveness. At this point, SDM seems to be falling apart for no reason.
There are more of them...I'm putting them in a spoiler right here if you want to read the rest
+ Show Spoiler +On October 05 2012 20:49 Sonic Death Monkey wrote: I need to grap some food and reread all this stuff, my head is spinning. For now...
##Unvote On October 05 2012 20:23 Sonic Death Monkey wrote:Show nested quote +On October 05 2012 16:41 Z-BosoN wrote: This is very intriguing... Thanks for that post SS, it brought out some very interesting reactions. Of course, your case is laughable, as usual. Of course, as scum, I would want to switch my vote towards a townie, in favor of, let's see, another townie. I will definitely bother producing a fuckton of text just for that. Anyways, djodref managed to be even worse. Please reread your points against me, and think of how they could come from me as scum. Think about what your FOS accomplishes for town here today. I'll be accepting donations to make up for you making my eyes bleed. If Omni doesn't answer, it's either debears/djodref/SS imo. Pointless lynching a modkill. Will decide come tomorrow, I gotta go sleep. SDM, I'd love to know your input on who you'd rather lynch save Omni. I'm sleepy as hell and will go to sleep, but probably during class tomorrow I'm gonna make up my mind. RSC, same thing. Gnight!
Not sure, Shady was my second pick until my brain just recently exploded. Djo's FOS was totally of the blue but I don't necessarily see a strong mafia motivation. If he's mafia maybe he wanted an easy wagon on you and backed off once Debears and I replied? Seems kind of unlikely. On October 05 2012 15:39 Sonic Death Monkey wrote:Show nested quote +On October 05 2012 14:30 Sonic Death Monkey wrote: Is this the point where you disappear again? Confirmed. I'll just say right away I'm not jumping a late Boson wagon, at least not if those are the arguments. Shady's post is a joke, what does this even mean? Show nested quote +On October 05 2012 14:19 Shady Sands wrote: his unvote of Debears and transfer to Alsn is also wierd I have no idea what's going on here. On October 05 2012 13:53 Sonic Death Monkey wrote: I'm pretty thrawn suggested in XXVII that scum is more likely to be talking about the NK rationale of scum. I don't think I've seen that myself though so I'm not sure whether it's true. Probably not, night actions seems like a rather common talking point in newbie games.
Open Ended Answers
There are posts where SDM just goes on an explanation and doesn't settle on an opinion. Scum like using these kinds of post to make it look like they are actually saying something when they aren't
+ Show Spoiler +On October 03 2012 20:43 Sonic Death Monkey wrote: I don't know what to make of Debears post-d2 posts because it's putting me in total WIFOM mode and I should probably just ignore it.
But disregarding his last posts which obviously could be the result of leveling, is his case stronger than the one I just made? Maybe it's the excitement of novelty, but really? At least I'd say Debears play has been way more pro-town. He has his scummy-looking inconsistneies for sure, but at the same time he was aggressive d1. He tried making cases, get the thread started. He took attention because he was willing to, compare that to Omni who's just cruising by. At least I encourage you to pop out of the Debears bubble we've all been in to look at it.
Also, to Debears benefit, does scum really hang on this long when faced by pages and pages of accusations? I know I gave in quickly in XXVI because it seemed pointless. And look at Kush's reaction. That's the only examples I have myself from experience, maybe Debears is different. And maybe you can question if a townie would hang in this long. At least Alsn did. On October 05 2012 13:46 Sonic Death Monkey wrote:Show nested quote +On October 05 2012 13:04 RemedySC wrote:On October 01 2012 05:56 Omniscient4983 wrote:Thoughts on night actions:On October 01 2012 05:14 DarthPunk wrote: LOL. Seems scum really went for it. Nice medic save! I'm guessing scum targeted Darth, and the medic saved him. He was the obvious candidate for NK, but the mafia tried to kill him anyway despite there being a high chance that a medic would be on him. This means that scum is desperate to get Darth out of the game. Why? Not only was he correct about Kush, but he gave his 3 top scum reads during the night in this order: Debears Djodref AlsnFrom my perspective: since scum targeted Darth, one of his three reads has a high likelihood of being correct. If he was headed in the wrong direction with these reads, scum would have taken out someone else and let him lead us astray. Attempting to NK Darth was a huge risk, but I believe it's one scum had to take because he was so on track, and having him alive would spell their doom in the end.What does everyone else think? Why have such an out of the blue description of what could have happened? He seems to know a lot about what scum would have done in this situation. For mafia motivation I can see him trying to lead us to three lynches, which we've already done one. I know Drazak slipped his medic role in XXVI after his night action and Xatalos picked up on it (that's why I don't really like blue role discussions after night actions). This is not how he slipped though, Drazak slipped it by talking about the rationale of the medic. I feel like this could easily just be scum trying to passively suggest three mislynches (we should lynch Debears, Djodref and Alsn, not because I want to but because Darth wants to) or just a green speculating. Or possibly a medic, but the risk of him being medic AND missing to save Darth seems rather low to me. You need two rather low probability events to coincide for that to be true.
Basically I just don't make much out of this post.
Notice how in both posts, SDM just revolves around an idea, citing it from each perspective and then jsut sayiing all of them are equally as likely. No actual insight
Contributions
Going back through SDM's thread, I considered what were his unique cases and scumreads?
The only one I actually found was Djo's case. However, SDM quickly dropped the case once suspicion on Djo picked up
+ Show Spoiler +On October 01 2012 22:09 Sonic Death Monkey wrote: My main focus for today will be Debears, Djo and Alsn. Djo has already responded to the case presented yesterday. The individual evidence presented earlier matches the actions of how I would expect newbie scum to play, but for whatever it’s worth my “feel read” is that he’s coming off as quite genuine. I’ve also been going through his recent posts and can’t seem to find any obvious contridictions or inconcistencies in his explanations. It’s all newbie based explanation that could be made up ex-post but a newbie scum is likely to have fucked up at least some part of the defense, so if this is an innocent newbie charade he’s playing it off rahter well.
I’m feeling a bit uneasy going for a Djo lynch and for now I’m leaning towards Alsn or Debears being the better candidates. Both have been posting a metric shit ton lately so I've got my hands full going through everything. I’m looking to complete that half-finished thought I threw out on Alsn yesterday and have a better idea of which lynch I’m liking later today.
So, instead of going for his main case, he decides to turn onto me and Alsn, the easy cases. Let's look at his contribution to the Alsn case.
+ Show Spoiler ++ Show Spoiler +On October 02 2012 04:04 Sonic Death Monkey wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On October 01 2012 02:36 Sonic Death Monkey wrote: I tried to collect my thoughts regarding the Alsn case and I realized when I first commented my perception of the timeline of events was off.
On my first read through of the thread, I found Alsn being generally suspicious of everything (overall a town trait) and he had been fucking up with regards to some of the information (perhaps not what I'd expect of Alsn given what I've seen of him before, but I don't find it too weird). Alsn was pretty much a null read to me. Anyway, I went back to look at Alsn's filter.
In his first post, which happens around 11 hours after the start of the game, he makes a long ass post about his thoughts on Kush. This in itself might be suspicious to some people, but having played with Kush in XXVI and XXVII he was probably the one player I was thinking the most about who to handle pre-game so I don't find it too weird. In his next post, one hour later, he has read up on the thread and recognizes that Kush has been playing like he Alsn had been afraid he would. He FOS Kush but says he's not convinced.
Anyway, when I said I wasn't convinced of the case, I had messed up the timeline of events. I thought Alsn's posts indirectly defending Kush happened not long before Kush completely blew up. If that was the case, I would've found it weird for Kush to blow up soon after his scum buddy showed him support. It seems now that Kush blew up at a later stage when Alsn wasn't around the thread, so that nullifies the argument I thought I had against the case.
I felt it was best to put it out there because if I happen to get killed off I don't want to leave with the impression I had some well thought out objection to the Alsn case. I still need to finish reading Alsn's filter and look at the case again, but I won't have time to do it until tomorrow. So yeah, not only did this turn out not to be an argument in favor of Alsn, but the timings makes sense for him being scum. Kush’s posts are actually most reasonable when Alsn is around and he later blows up after Alsn leaves with this post: + Show Spoiler +On September 29 2012 03:50 Alsn wrote: Would just like to say that I'm going to bed a little early today. Will be up in the morning(~12-14 hours before lynch) and making some posts and then on and off until lynch but without major "leaves of absence". Here's hoping that no one is still lurking when I wake up. This in itself isn’t necessarily incriminating but worth noting. Anyway, I’ll focus more on your reasoning for defending Kush. I don’t think it’s been fully covered and reading your filter this is something that doesn’t make sense to me. Intro: + Show Spoiler +When Alsn makes his first post Kush is taking heat from Darth. The Kush case hadn’t really been built yet, but the information is there. This is something Alsn acknowledges in his second post. On September 28 2012 17:56 Alsn wrote: Wow, upon reading the thread I realise that kush has been following the exact pattern I just now specified to be the way not to play if he wanted to absolve himself in my eyes. The OMGUS, the aggression, the flaming, the scum slip. Despite this, he’s going back on what he just said in his first post: On September 28 2012 16:54 Alsn wrote: So to sum up, kush, I can definitely forgive you for your "style" of posting but I will not under any circumstance forgive you for posting shitty content And instead posts: On September 28 2012 17:56 Alsn wrote: However, I definitely want to give him the benefit of the doubt and allow him to actually try and show that he has town's best interest in mind. So until then, while I definitely would like everyone to share their reads on kush so far, that is not enough for D1. We need to start exploring different possibilities because if we decide to lynch kush and he flips green, spending all of D1 talking about him will put us back at square one minus two townies.
I'll make another post within an hour or two on another topic as I think I've made myself perfectly clear on where I stand on kush, but right now I need breakfast. So he leaves saying he’s undecided on Kush, trying to steer the discussion in a different direction and if not, him having an easier bus decision (again, not incriminating in itself, but not my main point). Your main arguments for defending Kush is 1) his meta supporting his play and 2) the scum slip not being severe. To me that’s a really weird conclusion to make. Show nested quote +On September 29 2012 00:24 Alsn wrote:On September 28 2012 22:39 DarthPunk wrote:On September 28 2012 22:03 Alsn wrote:On September 28 2012 21:38 DarthPunk wrote:On September 28 2012 21:31 Alsn wrote: he has pointed out that he doesn't agree with your tunneling of kush. I find it astonishing that you 'interpret' debears' post that way in context of your view of Z-Boson. The way in which you paraphrase things whilst obscuring the truth/ put your own angle on things has me very concerned. Astonishing how? I would like you to explain what's so amazingly pro-town about tunneling kush from the very beginning. I find the risks of that approach to be very high from a town perspective. There are two scenarios: A) He flips green, and unless he during the day completely changed his character we will have almost no way of distinguishing who among the people who pushed for his lynch were scum and who were town. B) He flips scum, at this point I just don't find that likely enough to risk A) happening. That fact alone is enough for me to see that post of debears as entirely reasonable, since both of you at the time were basically calling out kush for every single post he was making(for good reason, but not if that's the only thing you are doing). I was not just looking at Kush. I was looking at the reactions to my case on kush also, Namely debears. As far as I am concerned Kush is scum and therefore it is best for town to lynch him. I like to focus on one thing at a time. Especially when he is incredibly scummy and has SCUM SLIPPED It is a common scum hunting technique and has been recommended in Several postgames. Obviously It was not to the exclusion of all others because I am now looking at you and debears. If there was nothing to go on I would have changed tac. Turns out he is scum. So I try and get him lynched. Savvy? On September 28 2012 22:03 Alsn wrote: That fact alone is enough for me to see that post of debears as entirely reasonable, since both of you at the time were basically calling out kush for every single post he was making(for good reason, but not if that's the only thing you are doing). So you don't find Kush likely to flip scum? good to know. Z -Boson hardly called out kush. I made a case. I was not tunnelling. (but I see that is the misconception you are trying to present) If by some miracle he flips green there is still a lot of info to go off. Your premise iswrong and thus your conclusions are wrong. I was calling out Kush for good reason? and at the same time Debears was entirely reasonable in shutting that down? ##FoS ALSN Given the evidence so far no, I don't, and frankly I don't see why that's so hard to believe. Given his history, it should be easy to see for anyone that while he has different town and scum metas(as pointed out by Hapahauli in the obs QT of NMMXVII), his comments so far this game is entirely in line with the way he usually posts during D1. Basically just writing up whatever is on his mind. That to me doesn't really increase or decrease the chances of him flipping either way(but the setup of the game says all else being equal, 75% of the players are green, 25% are scum) Yes, you called him out for good reason because his arguments(like so many times before this game) make little to no sense. But right now the only thing I really agree actually points to him being scum is what you call his scum slip. I just do not agree with you of just how damning that statement is. The first thing that sprang to mind when I saw you quoting that was simply that townie was an odd word to use, why not use player? But a confirmed scum slip? Come on, it's not like he said something that is entirely outside the realm of possibility for a town player to say. "Townie" wouldn't be the word I'd use, but I just can't see it as that obvious a scum slip. I'll accept that you are not necessarily wrong for thinking so however. Meta: I’m curious about this post because I disagree. I made a post later regarding how I think it didn’t match his town meta, a post you didn’t reply to (basically I think he has shown to be more aggressive, inflammatory and posted more pure crap as scum). Show nested quote +On September 28 2012 17:56 Alsn wrote: There is no explanation for his town read on me. The only reason he would say that is if he was scum.
This last part seems to overly simplify the matter to me. The only reason? I myself can see a few reasons, but I would like kush to reply himself before I comment further as I don't want to give him an easy out. Scum slip: Now that Kush is lynched, could you explain what those easy outs you thought of were? I’m really not seeing what easy outs you'd see for Kush straight up calling his attacker townie. Not only do I find your reasons for defending Kush weird, but to me they seem contradictory. Particularly when you claim that he is “basically just writing up whatever is on his mind” (which I think is true to a certain extent). If that’s your meta read on Kush, it would make all sense in the world that the scum slip is an actual scum slip. Typing what’s on your mind is exactly what results in a scum slip like that. So you’re using his meta to make null read on Kush's aggressive and nonsensical posts (which I disagree with) and you downplay his scum slip although it contradicts your meta read. To me this seems like slips in logic in made in order to defend Kush, a defense I now realize is both direct and indirect .
Notice how a half of his case is a poorly reasoned argument about the timing of Alsn's departure and kush's implosion. It is an argument based on assumptions. Next, he found it weird that Alsn defended kush (which had already been explained a bunch). However, he finds Alsn guilty of something that he had found me innocent of. Alsn had stated multiple times that he was trying to keep the whole town from tunneling kush, which is something that I also said. However, SDM only used that argument to clear me.
Notice how all his cases except Djo: (Omni, me, Alsn, SS/Corrosion) are points already brought up. Most of the time he just differently words an argument that has already been presented.
The Lynch or Lack Thereof
The events leading up to the lynch are a major scumslip in my book on SDM, He shriveled up into an indecisive shell at last moment. Yet, he wanted it that way.
On October 02 2012 19:55 Sonic Death Monkey wrote:Show nested quote +On October 02 2012 18:10 DarthPunk wrote: Also. We need to consolidate on Either Alsn or Debears. I am happy with either. Would mildly prefer a debears lynch. But I think both are scummy as shit.
So. Who are we going to Consolidate onto? Z- Boson? SDM? thoughts?
I'm leaning Alsn and I'm hoping to have time to explain why with a good amount of time to the lynch. I agree about the consolidating, but I don't think we're in a hurry. With an early concensus it's easier for scum to blend in, whereas if we wait they'll potentially face the pressure of a bus or save situation (or wait until the last minute to make a decision, which is scummy looking).
. However, when it comes to the situation he wants, a last minute switch, he refuses to lynch me to gain information based on the sudden vote changes, which could immensely help the town.
1) It clears the confusion over me being scum or town 2) It gives a better indication of who is scum based on the reaction to the sudden voteswing.
Let's start with the beginning of the confusion
On October 06 2012 01:41 Sonic Death Monkey wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2012 01:25 debears wrote: @Djo
Considering you were third on my scum list, and numbers 1(Omni) and 2 (SS) aren't sensible lynches atm, you are now my top scumread. Omni will most likely get modkilled. SS has posted a case using a similar line of thinking that I did earlier. Also, he took head on the most/2nd most townie person here. What kind of scum would do that when the scum could focus on me, omni, you, or stutters and get easy mislynches?
You, on the other hand, sheeped onto his case, which would be easy for mafia to do, as SS would take the blame. You just repeat Shady's reasoning, and now when Z-Bo attacks you, you instead just transfer back to me after FOSing Z-Bo. Your actions don't make sense from a townie perspective. They make plenty from mafia perspective.
That, considering the rest of your actions this game, give me a strong mafia read.
##Vote: Djodref Consider that we need to consolidate 5 votes on one player. If Stutters and Omni doesn't show up and Shady doesn't return, the only ones we can consolidate on seems to be Stutters and Omni. Obviously Stutters isn't an option, which leaves Omni. And Omni is a cancerous lurker and scummy as hell.
But if Stutters and Omni doesn't show up they might be modkilled anyway. Or is this even guaranteed? What a fucked up situation.
I don't understand this post. Instead of talking about whether a player is scummy, he starts rambling on whether others will show up Instead he latches onto Omni, a target we were pretty sure would be modkilled.
On October 06 2012 03:03 Sonic Death Monkey wrote: I just finished reading his filter and I basically found same case I posted n1 and then him all acting indecisive today. Fuck, I don't know, these last minutes switches make me uneasy. I was starting to get more of town vibe from him until today.
More indecisiveness, although this was the exact scenario he wanted so he could get some reads on voting.
On October 06 2012 03:07 Sonic Death Monkey wrote: ##Vote Djodref
On October 06 2012 03:12 Sonic Death Monkey wrote: Meh, I still like Omni better though. What if he comes back back, how many are willing to switch?
##Unvote
He unvotes Djo, citing that he liked Omni better. We had already discussed the scenario of voting for Omni if he comes back. Yet, SDM still acts confused.
On October 06 2012 03:23 Sonic Death Monkey wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2012 03:21 debears wrote: Yeah you're right SDM
If mafia claimed cop, and they were godfather, they would know there's a cop.
If mafia was a framer, they would know there's a cop.
If mafia was a goon, they would be risking a claim on the fact that there would not be a cop when there still could be I've seen setups with miller without a rolechecker in earlier newbies (or some game on TL, not sure what), don't think you can reason this way. Seem like a high % legit claim, is there any way to be 100%?
This was about the cop claim. SDM brings up a distracting, pointless question that he knows the answer to. The only way to be 100% on a cop claim is 1) a lynch of the cop 2) a scum lynch that the cop points out. Since 2) was not an option due to no red reads, lynching Djo would've been the only answer. SDM knows this. He is a good player that does not suddenly go full retard like this unless its for a reason.
On October 06 2012 03:50 Sonic Death Monkey wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2012 03:39 debears wrote: @SDM
How so? I could see it if we were talking 2 scum left. Is this under the assumption that there isn't a godfather and instead a framer or goon lefT?
If you work with probabilities it means the chance is lower, but of course you never know. Kind of like when you play poker and hit a pretty good hand, the chance of you winning is higher but you never know. Worst analogy ever.
Next, he keeps the topic off who to lynch. he keeps talking about the probability of the claim being true, which is a moot point at that time. Notice how he keeps avoiding the topic of who we should lynch
On October 06 2012 04:22 Sonic Death Monkey wrote:How many are still around? And wtf happened to Boson? He dropped a huge ass case and then poof. Still nothing on who we should lynch. Just asking if people are around. Show nested quote +On October 06 2012 04:16 RemedySC wrote: Well Z-bo or Debears would probably give us the most information, since Omni is likely to be modkilled.
What do you think SDM? My biggest scum read is set up for a modkill. Shady just got peeked and I wasn't entirely convinced before hand either. Next on my list would be Debears but I haven't given him much thought today until all this happened. Wasn't convinced about the Boson case and my state of mind isn't optimal for great decision making right now. I wouldn't mind a no lynch.
Look hard at this post. Look really hard. He knows his biggest scum read is going to get modkilled at this point, yet his still wants to vote for him. He says he doesn't know on Shady. And finally, HE HASN"T GIVEN LYNCHING ME MUCH THOUGHT AFTER I WAS A HEADLINE ALL GAME IN THE SCUMREADS UNTIL RIGHT BEFORE LYNCH????
That is bs. Total bs. He is definitely lying there.
On October 06 2012 04:29 Sonic Death Monkey wrote: If no one's here and want to push anything other than a no lynch I'm going to sleep. I'm really really tired.
On October 06 2012 04:56 Sonic Death Monkey wrote: Wtf is happening.
On October 06 2012 04:58 Sonic Death Monkey wrote: Gah, unvote.
On October 06 2012 05:21 Sonic Death Monkey wrote: WTF
Alright. Let's summarize his lynch thoughts 1) Indecisive 2) Wants a No lynch 3) Becomes extremely confused 4) Disappears right after his WTF post
Now, let's look at townie and mafia motivations 1) Town - He is actually confused. He believes that SS and Me might be town. He believes that Omni may still pop up. Problems with this thought - We all said we would be willing to switch back to Omni if he suddenly showed up to avoid modkill. But btw SS and me, town has to lynch one of us! SS might be town or might be scum. Either way, we need to clarify his alignment. The same is for me (from your guy's angle, I am town). SDM knows this. By taking out one of us, it would have led to more information for town at a stage where we can afford a mislynch. I needed 1 more vote for a lynch. Yet, SDM sits there, suddenly becoming the most indecisive player in the world despite what appeared to be a very good game in which everyone saw him as town. 2) Mafia - By keeping, SS and me(especially me) around, a mafia has the opportunity to take advantage of the confusion it will create for town. He can get away with nks that will easily be blamed on me and SS until our alignments are cleared up. He can act on the confusion in the thread and hide behind not forcing a vote (despite the fact that he stated earlier that he wanted a last minute vote situation).
SDM, you're looking pretty scummy right now
##unvote ##vote: Sonic Death Monkey
All I ask from all the town that is left is to look at this case multiple times. Read SDM's filter. After I get lynched, I feel that SDM is the most likely scum. JUST READ WITH TOWNIE GOGGLES FOR NOW. VOTE ME. LYNCH ME. AND THEN TAKE HIM DOWN.
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@Z-Bo
Don't be a retard. Read the case. Start assuming that I'll flip town. You haven't won this. Your apathy towards the end game is really annoying if you are actually town. If you are mafia (very slight chance to me), then I hope the other town catch on this.
Your acting arrogant. You aren't as good as you think (none of us are). Seriously, figure it out. At least SDM doesn't ride around on a pompous horse telling everyone that they're bad.
Try to improve. Try to actually reevaluate your reads. This is the hardest part of the game for town. This is where you can make improvements.
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Is there a way we can fast forward the day? Like if everyone agrees to it?
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Lol z-bo you are so gonna look the fool after this game.
Can we make a bet?
If i flip scum, you can name what you want from me. If i flip town, you auto lynch sdm
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Lol. If i was scum, i would have ez pushed for your lynch after your slip with shadys influence. You really think i would act as a. Retard and accuse everyone? Look at ny last game. I locked onto my targets as scum. I didn't bounce around with my votes. You are being stupid by acting that you know what scum would do. Every scum is different. Every situation is different
Besides, did you even read my case on Sdm? I've already conceded that i will be lynched. At the point that i realized your vet claim seemed confirmed, i decided to do something stupid so that i would get decisively lynched, whicj would be the best move for town, not counting an sdm lynch. Sdms bus on kush wouldn't be a mastermind play. It would be a smart play. Kush was under immense pressure, regardless of dps vote withdrawal. Eith lesrah not showing up, the smart play would be to gain town cred while not starting the bus. By the point that stutters voted, it was pretty certain that kush would be lynched
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On October 08 2012 04:52 Z-BosoN wrote: I read your bullet points and found they were pretty weak, but of course, I'm under the bias you are scum. The only correct thing there is the assumption you are getting lynched. What, you want me to switch just because you pulled a "I acknowledge I'm getting lynched, but I nevertheless I want to sacrifice myself and make sure SDM dies after me?" I'm doing exactly what you said. Lynching you. Then if by some miracle you aren't scum I'll reevaluate and think outside the box for my last remaining night.
This is all i ask from you z-bo. Make sure i get lynched. Vote me. Until i get lynched, work under the assumption that I'm town. In other words, i am confirmed town until i am lynched. If i am mafia, what i say wont matter since itll be end of game if I'm town, it gives us another opinion.
So reread my sdm case under the assumption I'm townie before u get rushed. Ill post some more thoughts here soon once i get back to my computer
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First, SDM
SDM, you suddenly found me to be a townie after d2's lynch. Let me go back and examine why.
+ Show Spoiler +On October 03 2012 01:34 Sonic Death Monkey wrote:About the Debears case: My argument for wanting to lynch Alsn instead of Debears is that between the two of them, I think Debears' motivations are less clearly scummy. While I feel like Debears has been acting like I would expect scum to act in a lot of the situations he’s been in, that doesn't make his motivations exclusively scummy. As an example, I've found Debears smoothly jumping Kush's wagon to be suspcious, but reading Debears' filter I don't end up convinced that's the case. For this to be suspicious, it requires the assumption that he had dropped his initial suspicions. Looking back at his posts around that time, I don't think that's clear: + Show Spoiler +On September 28 2012 13:24 debears wrote: Our main goal is to lynch mafia. Yes, kush has said some scummy things. However, I'm not gonna go around parading this early saying "kush is scum. Kush is scum. OMFG".
Also, let the man defend himself instead of trying to rally everyone active behind your cause so early. If he is scummy, the votes will come.
Anyhow. I see two others who have suspiciously posted.
I'm pretty sure I've made similar arguments myself, that we gain more information by focusing on multiple suspects. The same can be said for him dropping his suspicion on Djo. Throwing out light suspcicions early on in order to get things started isn't really anti-town. Looking back at his original case, he doesn't seem to push it that hard and honestly I don't find the inconsistency of dropping it as weird as a lot of others seem to: + Show Spoiler +On September 28 2012 13:24 debears wrote:@DjorefShow nested quote +On September 28 2012 08:51 Djodref wrote: @Darthpunk
Nevermind you look just more confident to get a scum on D1 than me.
Regarding my plan, I think we need general directions to follow because of the majority lynch. It is a way to gather everybody around 2-3 suspicious players and secure a lynch. I'm assuming everyone agree on a no-lynch to be stupid.
Djoref, I don't like that statement at all. That's the second post you bring up about the likelihood of lynching a townie d1. As town, you should never have that mentality. I would probably less likely to bring this up if you were a total nooby. However, you said you "know Kush's meta" which means you have some decent understanding of the game for a noob. By saying this, it seems that you are setting yourself an excuse to be indecisive later in the day when the lynch voting comes around. Alone, it isn't much. However, your other posts don't help. Show nested quote +On September 28 2012 08:44 Djodref wrote: @Darthpunk
Considering that we are likely to lynch a town on D1, don't you think it's a lesser wrong to get rid of someone inactive ? Inactivity means no scumhunt and room to hide for the mafia...
After playing mafia last game, I feel like heavy lurking is a bad play for mafia. It puts too much pressure on you are as a scum. Instead, posting lightly without much substance is more mafia indicative. Yet again, I feel you are just looking like you are contributing without saying much. Especially when you already covered your thoughts in a previous post. Show nested quote +On September 28 2012 08:36 Djodref wrote:Hello everybody ! About meThis is my first game ever on forum but I've been playing on SC2mafia and also irl. But I've been lurking on the TL Mafia forum for a while (so I know your meta kush^^) and I decided to join this newbie game. I'm also a French guy and I live in Korea so my english is not on top and it's going to ne difficult for me to be around at deadline (5.00 am KST). Lurker policyFrom the games I've seen, unless you have a golden scumslip on d1, it's very difficult to lynch a scum the very first day. So I have no problem ending up voting for the most suspicious lurker at the end of the day. I define most suspicious lurker as a semi-lurker just trying to blend in.Day PlanI don't think to be able to be around for the first deadline so I would like to propose a day plan to secure a lynch as we are using a majority vote. First 24 hours to find lynch candidates while scumhunting and next 20 hours to decide who is the scummiest. Last 4 hours to consolidate the vote or switch to a lurker. Please discuss Notice how you are just repeating points? It isn't helpful to us. Next post Show nested quote +On September 28 2012 11:09 Djodref wrote:@Kush thank you now I won't be nk Was it also a joke ? How can you be so sure you are not going to be NKed ? A two sentence, two question post. I don't like these. They are worthless. Also, this question came quite a bit later after darthpunk already was asking questions about joking. You seem to be sheeping onto darth's case against kush. Show nested quote +On September 28 2012 11:53 Djodref wrote:On September 28 2012 11:22 kushm4sta wrote:
Because the most active townie is tunneling me?
I would also like to hear you explanations about this specific part. I don't have a read on Darth on the moment considering he has only been hard tunneling you. As you said yourself you have a scummy meta so you are an easy target for early game to put pressure on. So what makes him so much town ? Yet again, this post is just repeating what darth is saying. Another question. I don't like this. Your early posts are indicative of a semi-active scum. Sheeping, question posts, and rehashing things already said multiple times. Basically I think a lot Debears actions look scummy, but it's not farfetched to see various possible motivations in them. You can argue for a convergence of evidence type case, that when a lot of weaker evidence is pointing in the same direction, there’s often something to it. I think that’s a valid argument and barring scum slips like Kush’s that’s often how scum is found, but I don't think Debears’ story is as incoherent as Alsn’s. I think both have perfectly reasonable “scum stories”, but I find Debears' "town explanations" more believable.If I look at Debears’ story, I can see reasonable explanations for his actions. If I look at Alsn’s story, I just don’t see how I’d ever reach his conclusions. He’s defending Kush with arguments I find weird and I think those can easily be the result of artificially searching them (scum) rather than just naturally reacting (town). Alsn is also more clearly contradicting himself in my opinion. Particularly the part where, despite his introduction post d1, he’s still not liking a Kush lynch on d2 (aka Act IV).
Then, your next post that talks about me more than one line.
+ Show Spoiler +On October 03 2012 20:43 Sonic Death Monkey wrote: I don't know what to make of Debears post-d2 posts because it's putting me in total WIFOM mode and I should probably just ignore it.
But disregarding his last posts which obviously could be the result of leveling, is his case stronger than the one I just made? Maybe it's the excitement of novelty, but really? At least I'd say Debears play has been way more pro-town. He has his scummy-looking inconsistneies for sure, but at the same time he was aggressive d1. He tried making cases, get the thread started. He took attention because he was willing to, compare that to Omni who's just cruising by. At least I encourage you to pop out of the Debears bubble we've all been in to look at it.
Also, to Debears benefit, does scum really hang on this long when faced by pages and pages of accusations? I know I gave in quickly in XXVI because it seemed pointless. And look at Kush's reaction. That's the only examples I have myself from experience, maybe Debears is different. And maybe you can question if a townie would hang in this long. At least Alsn did.
Ok let's summarize your reasons for me seeming town. 1) I was aggressive d1 2) Scum doesn't hang on that long faced with pages of accusation
Two pretty piss poor reasons to view me as town, especially when you say that I definitely have my scummy looking inconsistencies.
Also, based on your argument earlier, right now I am town. I am being extremely aggressive and active. I have the spotlight. And I am hanging on and contributing what I can before I get lynched while looking scummy. Contradiction no?
Here is the main thing that showed me that SDM is scum. The rest of the my original case is stuff I found looking back hard at his filter.
The Lynch or Lack ThereofThe events leading up to the lynch are a major scumslip in my book on SDM, He shriveled up into an indecisive shell at last moment. Yet, he wanted it that way. Show nested quote +On October 02 2012 19:55 Sonic Death Monkey wrote:On October 02 2012 18:10 DarthPunk wrote: Also. We need to consolidate on Either Alsn or Debears. I am happy with either. Would mildly prefer a debears lynch. But I think both are scummy as shit.
So. Who are we going to Consolidate onto? Z- Boson? SDM? thoughts?
I'm leaning Alsn and I'm hoping to have time to explain why with a good amount of time to the lynch. I agree about the consolidating, but I don't think we're in a hurry. With an early concensus it's easier for scum to blend in, whereas if we wait they'll potentially face the pressure of a bus or save situation (or wait until the last minute to make a decision, which is scummy looking). . However, when it comes to the situation he wants, a last minute switch, he refuses to lynch me to gain information based on the sudden vote changes, which could immensely help the town. 1) It clears the confusion over me being scum or town 2) It gives a better indication of who is scum based on the reaction to the sudden voteswing. Show nested quote +On October 06 2012 04:22 Sonic Death Monkey wrote:How many are still around? And wtf happened to Boson? He dropped a huge ass case and then poof. Still nothing on who we should lynch. Just asking if people are around. On October 06 2012 04:16 RemedySC wrote: Well Z-bo or Debears would probably give us the most information, since Omni is likely to be modkilled.
What do you think SDM? My biggest scum read is set up for a modkill. Shady just got peeked and I wasn't entirely convinced before hand either. Next on my list would be Debears but I haven't given him much thought today until all this happened. Wasn't convinced about the Boson case and my state of mind isn't optimal for great decision making right now. I wouldn't mind a no lynch. Look hard at this post. Look really hard. He knows his biggest scum read is going to get modkilled at this point, yet his still wants to vote for him. He says he doesn't know on Shady. And finally, HE HASN"T GIVEN LYNCHING ME MUCH THOUGHT AFTER I WAS A HEADLINE ALL GAME IN THE SCUMREADS UNTIL RIGHT BEFORE LYNCH????That is bs. Total bs. He is definitely lying there. Alright. Let's summarize his lynch thoughts 1) Indecisive 2) Wants a No lynch 3) Becomes extremely confused 4) Disappears right after his WTF post Now, let's look at townie and mafia motivations 1) Town - He is actually confused. He believes that SS and Me might be town. He believes that Omni may still pop up. Problems with this thought - We all said we would be willing to switch back to Omni if he suddenly showed up to avoid modkill. But btw SS and me, town has to lynch one of us! SS might be town or might be scum. Either way, we need to clarify his alignment. The same is for me (from your guy's angle since you think I'm scum, I am town). SDM knows this. By taking out one of us, it would have led to more information for town at a stage where we can afford a mislynch. I needed 1 more vote for a lynch. Yet, SDM sits there, suddenly becoming the most indecisive player in the world despite what appeared to be a very good game in which everyone saw him as town. 2) Mafia - By keeping, SS and me(especially me) around, a mafia has the opportunity to take advantage of the confusion it will create for town. He can get away with nks that will easily be blamed on me and SS until our alignments are cleared up. He can act on the confusion in the thread and hide behind not forcing a vote (despite the fact that he stated earlier that he wanted a last minute vote situation). Finally,
@SDM
WHY DID YOU NOT GO OVER MY FILTER AT ALL DURING ALL OF DAY 3 WHEN YOU SAID MY ACTIONS WERE SCUMMY AND I WAS THE OTHER MAIN LYNCH CANDIDATE?
WHY DID YOU NOT VOTE ME RIGHT BEFORE LYNCH, THEN DISAPPEAR AFTER A MOVE THAT WOULD BE STUPID FOR A TOWNIE TO MAKE? WHY WAS YOUR VOTE PARKED ON OMNISCIENT WHO WE KNEW WOULD GET MODKILLED?
Remember, Z-Bo, SS, and RSC, mafia make mistakes too. I feel that this was a HUGE scumslip by SDM. Look at his rebuttal post. HE DOES NOT MENTION THE MAIN POINT OF MY ARGUMENT AGAINST HIM. Why? BECAUSE HE IS SCUM AND HE KNOWS I'M RIGHT. HE HAS NO DEFENSE.
+ Show Spoiler +On October 08 2012 04:23 Sonic Death Monkey wrote:I'm up to date again. Seriously Debears, wtf? Your case reeks of desperation. I don't get how on earth you end up getting me associated with Kush. It seems to me Kush was less inflammatory against people not cursing at him or telling him he was scum in bolded, red versals. That might have something to do with it, I don’t know. What a weird argument coming from someone who tried to avoid pushing Kush despite him looking scummy as hell. Overconfidence: I'm not sure you understood what made me suspicious of you in XXVII. XXVII stuff in here: + Show Spoiler +One part was because you made a lengthy defense of thrawn for no real reason. I think this was the legit part. The other part was something I still think was a genuine misunderstanding (thrawn's intentions), which was why I thought the case was made weaker. My #1 scum read d1 was Sharrant. I really liked that case and it had 2-3 good motivations behind it. After I was killed off n1 I just followed the game in the Obs QT. On d2 I was confident Stutters was scum. On d3 I was confident Atreides was scum. So basically all my 3 strongest reads in XXVII turned out wrong. You couldn't know this because you were still in the game so I'll give you a pass on this one, but this is all in the XXVII Obs QT. Time and indecision: Shady's post on Boson pissed me off at first because he had been dodging my questions for a long while. I responded barely reading his case because given the quality of his earlier cases I was sure it was complete crap. When Shady started replying I realized I had to go back to understand wtf he was talking about, as anyone can see my attempts in replying to him were just messed up at first. Open-ended answers: Seriosuly, what kind of argument is this? In the first bolded part it's clear I think (based on my experience) it's less likely for scum to hang on for this long. But since my experience is limited to two games I was looking for opinions from others as well. The second bolded part, I just don't think the argument they were making held much weight and it made sense to point that out. Contributions: I thought Djo came off scummy d1/n1 and I pointed it out. In the end I thought Boson's cases made more sense. Considering the validity of other cases kind of seemed to be a good idea. And I don't get why you'd say my Omni case wasn't original or at least added a lot of weight to it with new argumetns. About Alsn, wtf? My arguments against him wasn't based on him pointing out that focusing on others would be good for town, but that he was directly defending him (read my post again) using weird arguments. I by no means "cleared" you because you suggested focusing on others, but at least it could have town motivations. Indecisive again: I was being indecisive here for sure. How on earth wouldn't I be? If you go read my d3 filter I basically never considered you for lynch d3. I was highly suspicious of Omni and Djo, quite suspicious of Shady and had moments of doubts wrt Boson. In the end Omni was likely to head for modkill, Djo just claimed cop, Shady had been peeked and I decided the Boson case was weak. All of a sudden all my d3 considerations had gone out the window. And at this point you expect me to me mr decisive? Last time I pushed a last minute switch I hadn't thought over I caused the mislynch of Drazak. When i got back all hell had broken loose. The only thing I had time to react to was that Boson had seemingly become a lynching target and claimed vet. Lynching him made no sense at all. And somewhere you also argue that my recent absence from the thread is somehow scummy? Gah, how is all this not just an act of desperation? ##Vote Debears
I have made big cases on every single person in this game besides Lesrah and RSC. I have not shared most of them with you guys. Why? Because I only present ones that make the most sense to me.
OUT OF ALL MY CASES THIS GAME, THIS ONE MAKES THE MOST SENSE.
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As an FYI, I am done defending my actions. I will be lynched. I don't care. I'm in full attack mode.
On October 08 2012 05:40 Sonic Death Monkey wrote: Steaming off a bit I have no idea what your town motivations would be, Debears. How did you switch so fast between SS being scum and onto me? Your case against starts with you saying both of us are likely scum and somehow ends with you being willing to bet anything on me being scum. It makes no sense unless it's a scum desperation move.
That's a lie. Let me quote the beginning of my case against you.
+ Show Spoiler +On October 07 2012 16:23 debears wrote: Aright guys, I'm gonna put something new into the thread. Considering that Djo and Z-Bo are pretty much confirmed at this point, I was wondering why we are having so much trouble this game with finding the last mafia. My conclusions: The last mafia is playing a hell of a game. Looking at this, I've been wondering who is capable of this. At this point, I'd see Z-Bo, SDM, and SS. Z-Bo is confirmed. SS has said some scummy things and is at threat of being lynched.
However, one person has managed to avoid the spotlight throughout the whole game. He has not had anyone actually attack (besides Z-Bo day 1, but that was an argument over the validity of my defense of SDM early).
That person is SDM. Recently, his refusal to vote me in the lynch set off some alarms in my head. I've looked through his filter and found some things that don't make townie sense.
In no way do I say Z-Bo is likely scum. I say he is confirmed town. YOU ARE LYING
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On October 08 2012 09:48 Sonic Death Monkey wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2012 09:04 debears wrote:As an FYI, I am done defending my actions. I will be lynched. I don't care. I'm in full attack mode. On October 08 2012 05:40 Sonic Death Monkey wrote: Steaming off a bit I have no idea what your town motivations would be, Debears. How did you switch so fast between SS being scum and onto me? Your case against starts with you saying both of us are likely scum and somehow ends with you being willing to bet anything on me being scum. It makes no sense unless it's a scum desperation move. That's a lie. Let me quote the beginning of my case against you. + Show Spoiler +On October 07 2012 16:23 debears wrote: Aright guys, I'm gonna put something new into the thread. Considering that Djo and Z-Bo are pretty much confirmed at this point, I was wondering why we are having so much trouble this game with finding the last mafia. My conclusions: The last mafia is playing a hell of a game. Looking at this, I've been wondering who is capable of this. At this point, I'd see Z-Bo, SDM, and SS. Z-Bo is confirmed. SS has said some scummy things and is at threat of being lynched.
However, one person has managed to avoid the spotlight throughout the whole game. He has not had anyone actually attack (besides Z-Bo day 1, but that was an argument over the validity of my defense of SDM early).
That person is SDM. Recently, his refusal to vote me in the lynch set off some alarms in my head. I've looked through his filter and found some things that don't make townie sense. In no way do I say Z-Bo is likely scum. I say he is confirmed town. YOU ARE LYING Where in God's name did I say you thought Boson was scummy?
Um how about you read the quote i posted in my post in the spoiler. Its in the red. Duh
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Ebwop nested quote is what its in
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+ Show Spoiler +On October 08 2012 09:45 Sonic Death Monkey wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2012 09:00 debears wrote:First, SDM SDM, you suddenly found me to be a townie after d2's lynch. Let me go back and examine why. + Show Spoiler +On October 03 2012 01:34 Sonic Death Monkey wrote:About the Debears case: My argument for wanting to lynch Alsn instead of Debears is that between the two of them, I think Debears' motivations are less clearly scummy. While I feel like Debears has been acting like I would expect scum to act in a lot of the situations he’s been in, that doesn't make his motivations exclusively scummy. As an example, I've found Debears smoothly jumping Kush's wagon to be suspcious, but reading Debears' filter I don't end up convinced that's the case. For this to be suspicious, it requires the assumption that he had dropped his initial suspicions. Looking back at his posts around that time, I don't think that's clear: + Show Spoiler +On September 28 2012 13:24 debears wrote: Our main goal is to lynch mafia. Yes, kush has said some scummy things. However, I'm not gonna go around parading this early saying "kush is scum. Kush is scum. OMFG".
Also, let the man defend himself instead of trying to rally everyone active behind your cause so early. If he is scummy, the votes will come.
Anyhow. I see two others who have suspiciously posted.
I'm pretty sure I've made similar arguments myself, that we gain more information by focusing on multiple suspects. The same can be said for him dropping his suspicion on Djo. Throwing out light suspcicions early on in order to get things started isn't really anti-town. Looking back at his original case, he doesn't seem to push it that hard and honestly I don't find the inconsistency of dropping it as weird as a lot of others seem to: + Show Spoiler +On September 28 2012 13:24 debears wrote:@DjorefShow nested quote +On September 28 2012 08:51 Djodref wrote: @Darthpunk
Nevermind you look just more confident to get a scum on D1 than me.
Regarding my plan, I think we need general directions to follow because of the majority lynch. It is a way to gather everybody around 2-3 suspicious players and secure a lynch. I'm assuming everyone agree on a no-lynch to be stupid.
Djoref, I don't like that statement at all. That's the second post you bring up about the likelihood of lynching a townie d1. As town, you should never have that mentality. I would probably less likely to bring this up if you were a total nooby. However, you said you "know Kush's meta" which means you have some decent understanding of the game for a noob. By saying this, it seems that you are setting yourself an excuse to be indecisive later in the day when the lynch voting comes around. Alone, it isn't much. However, your other posts don't help. Show nested quote +On September 28 2012 08:44 Djodref wrote: @Darthpunk
Considering that we are likely to lynch a town on D1, don't you think it's a lesser wrong to get rid of someone inactive ? Inactivity means no scumhunt and room to hide for the mafia...
After playing mafia last game, I feel like heavy lurking is a bad play for mafia. It puts too much pressure on you are as a scum. Instead, posting lightly without much substance is more mafia indicative. Yet again, I feel you are just looking like you are contributing without saying much. Especially when you already covered your thoughts in a previous post. Show nested quote +On September 28 2012 08:36 Djodref wrote:Hello everybody ! About meThis is my first game ever on forum but I've been playing on SC2mafia and also irl. But I've been lurking on the TL Mafia forum for a while (so I know your meta kush^^) and I decided to join this newbie game. I'm also a French guy and I live in Korea so my english is not on top and it's going to ne difficult for me to be around at deadline (5.00 am KST). Lurker policyFrom the games I've seen, unless you have a golden scumslip on d1, it's very difficult to lynch a scum the very first day. So I have no problem ending up voting for the most suspicious lurker at the end of the day. I define most suspicious lurker as a semi-lurker just trying to blend in.Day PlanI don't think to be able to be around for the first deadline so I would like to propose a day plan to secure a lynch as we are using a majority vote. First 24 hours to find lynch candidates while scumhunting and next 20 hours to decide who is the scummiest. Last 4 hours to consolidate the vote or switch to a lurker. Please discuss Notice how you are just repeating points? It isn't helpful to us. Next post Show nested quote +On September 28 2012 11:09 Djodref wrote:@Kush thank you now I won't be nk Was it also a joke ? How can you be so sure you are not going to be NKed ? A two sentence, two question post. I don't like these. They are worthless. Also, this question came quite a bit later after darthpunk already was asking questions about joking. You seem to be sheeping onto darth's case against kush. Show nested quote +On September 28 2012 11:53 Djodref wrote:On September 28 2012 11:22 kushm4sta wrote:
Because the most active townie is tunneling me?
I would also like to hear you explanations about this specific part. I don't have a read on Darth on the moment considering he has only been hard tunneling you. As you said yourself you have a scummy meta so you are an easy target for early game to put pressure on. So what makes him so much town ? Yet again, this post is just repeating what darth is saying. Another question. I don't like this. Your early posts are indicative of a semi-active scum. Sheeping, question posts, and rehashing things already said multiple times. Basically I think a lot Debears actions look scummy, but it's not farfetched to see various possible motivations in them. You can argue for a convergence of evidence type case, that when a lot of weaker evidence is pointing in the same direction, there’s often something to it. I think that’s a valid argument and barring scum slips like Kush’s that’s often how scum is found, but I don't think Debears’ story is as incoherent as Alsn’s. I think both have perfectly reasonable “scum stories”, but I find Debears' "town explanations" more believable.If I look at Debears’ story, I can see reasonable explanations for his actions. If I look at Alsn’s story, I just don’t see how I’d ever reach his conclusions. He’s defending Kush with arguments I find weird and I think those can easily be the result of artificially searching them (scum) rather than just naturally reacting (town). Alsn is also more clearly contradicting himself in my opinion. Particularly the part where, despite his introduction post d1, he’s still not liking a Kush lynch on d2 (aka Act IV). Then, your next post that talks about me more than one line. + Show Spoiler +On October 03 2012 20:43 Sonic Death Monkey wrote: I don't know what to make of Debears post-d2 posts because it's putting me in total WIFOM mode and I should probably just ignore it.
But disregarding his last posts which obviously could be the result of leveling, is his case stronger than the one I just made? Maybe it's the excitement of novelty, but really? At least I'd say Debears play has been way more pro-town. He has his scummy-looking inconsistneies for sure, but at the same time he was aggressive d1. He tried making cases, get the thread started. He took attention because he was willing to, compare that to Omni who's just cruising by. At least I encourage you to pop out of the Debears bubble we've all been in to look at it.
Also, to Debears benefit, does scum really hang on this long when faced by pages and pages of accusations? I know I gave in quickly in XXVI because it seemed pointless. And look at Kush's reaction. That's the only examples I have myself from experience, maybe Debears is different. And maybe you can question if a townie would hang in this long. At least Alsn did. Ok let's summarize your reasons for me seeming town. 1) I was aggressive d1 2) Scum doesn't hang on that long faced with pages of accusation Two pretty piss poor reasons to view me as town, especially when you say that I definitely have my scummy looking inconsistencies. Also, based on your argument earlier, right now I am town. I am being extremely aggressive and active. I have the spotlight. And I am hanging on and contributing what I can before I get lynched while looking scummy. Contradiction no? Here is the main thing that showed me that SDM is scum. The rest of the my original case is stuff I found looking back hard at his filter.The Lynch or Lack ThereofThe events leading up to the lynch are a major scumslip in my book on SDM, He shriveled up into an indecisive shell at last moment. Yet, he wanted it that way. On October 02 2012 19:55 Sonic Death Monkey wrote:On October 02 2012 18:10 DarthPunk wrote: Also. We need to consolidate on Either Alsn or Debears. I am happy with either. Would mildly prefer a debears lynch. But I think both are scummy as shit.
So. Who are we going to Consolidate onto? Z- Boson? SDM? thoughts?
I'm leaning Alsn and I'm hoping to have time to explain why with a good amount of time to the lynch. I agree about the consolidating, but I don't think we're in a hurry. With an early concensus it's easier for scum to blend in, whereas if we wait they'll potentially face the pressure of a bus or save situation (or wait until the last minute to make a decision, which is scummy looking). . However, when it comes to the situation he wants, a last minute switch, he refuses to lynch me to gain information based on the sudden vote changes, which could immensely help the town. 1) It clears the confusion over me being scum or town 2) It gives a better indication of who is scum based on the reaction to the sudden voteswing. On October 06 2012 04:22 Sonic Death Monkey wrote:How many are still around? And wtf happened to Boson? He dropped a huge ass case and then poof. Still nothing on who we should lynch. Just asking if people are around. On October 06 2012 04:16 RemedySC wrote: Well Z-bo or Debears would probably give us the most information, since Omni is likely to be modkilled.
What do you think SDM? My biggest scum read is set up for a modkill. Shady just got peeked and I wasn't entirely convinced before hand either. Next on my list would be Debears but I haven't given him much thought today until all this happened. Wasn't convinced about the Boson case and my state of mind isn't optimal for great decision making right now. I wouldn't mind a no lynch. Look hard at this post. Look really hard. He knows his biggest scum read is going to get modkilled at this point, yet his still wants to vote for him. He says he doesn't know on Shady. And finally, HE HASN"T GIVEN LYNCHING ME MUCH THOUGHT AFTER I WAS A HEADLINE ALL GAME IN THE SCUMREADS UNTIL RIGHT BEFORE LYNCH????That is bs. Total bs. He is definitely lying there. Alright. Let's summarize his lynch thoughts 1) Indecisive 2) Wants a No lynch 3) Becomes extremely confused 4) Disappears right after his WTF post Now, let's look at townie and mafia motivations 1) Town - He is actually confused. He believes that SS and Me might be town. He believes that Omni may still pop up. Problems with this thought - We all said we would be willing to switch back to Omni if he suddenly showed up to avoid modkill. But btw SS and me, town has to lynch one of us! SS might be town or might be scum. Either way, we need to clarify his alignment. The same is for me (from your guy's angle since you think I'm scum, I am town). SDM knows this. By taking out one of us, it would have led to more information for town at a stage where we can afford a mislynch. I needed 1 more vote for a lynch. Yet, SDM sits there, suddenly becoming the most indecisive player in the world despite what appeared to be a very good game in which everyone saw him as town. 2) Mafia - By keeping, SS and me(especially me) around, a mafia has the opportunity to take advantage of the confusion it will create for town. He can get away with nks that will easily be blamed on me and SS until our alignments are cleared up. He can act on the confusion in the thread and hide behind not forcing a vote (despite the fact that he stated earlier that he wanted a last minute vote situation). Finally, @SDM WHY DID YOU NOT GO OVER MY FILTER AT ALL DURING ALL OF DAY 3 WHEN YOU SAID MY ACTIONS WERE SCUMMY AND I WAS THE OTHER MAIN LYNCH CANDIDATE? WHY DID YOU NOT VOTE ME RIGHT BEFORE LYNCH, THEN DISAPPEAR AFTER A MOVE THAT WOULD BE STUPID FOR A TOWNIE TO MAKE? WHY WAS YOUR VOTE PARKED ON OMNISCIENT WHO WE KNEW WOULD GET MODKILLED? Remember, Z-Bo, SS, and RSC, mafia make mistakes too. I feel that this was a HUGE scumslip by SDM. Look at his rebuttal post. HE DOES NOT MENTION THE MAIN POINT OF MY ARGUMENT AGAINST HIM. Why? BECAUSE HE IS SCUM AND HE KNOWS I'M RIGHT. HE HAS NO DEFENSE. + Show Spoiler +On October 08 2012 04:23 Sonic Death Monkey wrote:I'm up to date again. Seriously Debears, wtf? Your case reeks of desperation. I don't get how on earth you end up getting me associated with Kush. It seems to me Kush was less inflammatory against people not cursing at him or telling him he was scum in bolded, red versals. That might have something to do with it, I don’t know. What a weird argument coming from someone who tried to avoid pushing Kush despite him looking scummy as hell. Overconfidence: I'm not sure you understood what made me suspicious of you in XXVII. XXVII stuff in here: + Show Spoiler +One part was because you made a lengthy defense of thrawn for no real reason. I think this was the legit part. The other part was something I still think was a genuine misunderstanding (thrawn's intentions), which was why I thought the case was made weaker. My #1 scum read d1 was Sharrant. I really liked that case and it had 2-3 good motivations behind it. After I was killed off n1 I just followed the game in the Obs QT. On d2 I was confident Stutters was scum. On d3 I was confident Atreides was scum. So basically all my 3 strongest reads in XXVII turned out wrong. You couldn't know this because you were still in the game so I'll give you a pass on this one, but this is all in the XXVII Obs QT. Time and indecision: Shady's post on Boson pissed me off at first because he had been dodging my questions for a long while. I responded barely reading his case because given the quality of his earlier cases I was sure it was complete crap. When Shady started replying I realized I had to go back to understand wtf he was talking about, as anyone can see my attempts in replying to him were just messed up at first. Open-ended answers: Seriosuly, what kind of argument is this? In the first bolded part it's clear I think (based on my experience) it's less likely for scum to hang on for this long. But since my experience is limited to two games I was looking for opinions from others as well. The second bolded part, I just don't think the argument they were making held much weight and it made sense to point that out. Contributions: I thought Djo came off scummy d1/n1 and I pointed it out. In the end I thought Boson's cases made more sense. Considering the validity of other cases kind of seemed to be a good idea. And I don't get why you'd say my Omni case wasn't original or at least added a lot of weight to it with new argumetns. About Alsn, wtf? My arguments against him wasn't based on him pointing out that focusing on others would be good for town, but that he was directly defending him (read my post again) using weird arguments. I by no means "cleared" you because you suggested focusing on others, but at least it could have town motivations. Indecisive again: I was being indecisive here for sure. How on earth wouldn't I be? If you go read my d3 filter I basically never considered you for lynch d3. I was highly suspicious of Omni and Djo, quite suspicious of Shady and had moments of doubts wrt Boson. In the end Omni was likely to head for modkill, Djo just claimed cop, Shady had been peeked and I decided the Boson case was weak. All of a sudden all my d3 considerations had gone out the window. And at this point you expect me to me mr decisive? Last time I pushed a last minute switch I hadn't thought over I caused the mislynch of Drazak. When i got back all hell had broken loose. The only thing I had time to react to was that Boson had seemingly become a lynching target and claimed vet. Lynching him made no sense at all. And somewhere you also argue that my recent absence from the thread is somehow scummy? Gah, how is all this not just an act of desperation? ##Vote Debears I have made big cases on every single person in this game besides Lesrah and RSC. I have not shared most of them with you guys. Why? Because I only present ones that make the most sense to me. OUT OF ALL MY CASES THIS GAME, THIS ONE MAKES THE MOST SENSE. Jesus, read my filter. The second post of mine is arguing why I think Omni is more suspicious, not proclaiming you as town. I also said we needed to focus on others because we had been discussing you for a week. Show nested quote +On October 04 2012 20:59 Sonic Death Monkey wrote: We've been discussing the Debears case for almost a week now, it's about time we focus on others. I'll get back with thoughts when we're getting closer to EOD. I never did, because when Shady stumbles into the thread with all kind of messy posts, I got more suspicious of him. Show nested quote +On October 05 2012 20:44 Sonic Death Monkey wrote: Besides I'm more suspicious of this Shady guy than I am of Debears atm. I also had to make up my mind on Boson because the final Shady case made kind of some kind of sense (so i checked the d2 voting and after that considered it weak). Djo came off as weird as well d3, I didn't know what to make of him jumping on the Shady's silly ideas instantly. And he was being quite insistant on his town read on Omni eventhough I found that case really good (finally giving in and voting on him because it'd make him post better). I didn't know what to make of that and closer to EOD I checked Djo's filter as suggested by Boson. This is where my focus was. When it all finally blew up with the cop claim, I had put no focus on you whatsoever and was quite happy to make sure my #1 scum read would get killed off. If he didn't flip red we'd still be in a good d4 situation where we actually could think things over instead of having a repeat of the Drazak fuck up. And I addressed this in my last post, I just didn't spell it all out in detail because it's all in my fucking filter that you've supposedly read.
This is a bs excuse. You thought my actions were scummy, yet you never in d3 looked at my filter? What kind of scumhunting is that? The only reason i don't check someones filter at least once a cycle is if i am pretty sure they are town.
Why in the hell would you not check my filter if you are town, if you found me scummy, and if you are actually scumhunting.
Hell even when i had a town read on you i checked your filter from this game and other games.
You're argument makes no sense from a townies perspective. You're no lynch makes no sense from a townie perspective.
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Ebwop read vers mafia xxx analysis. When someone does things that don't make sense from a townie perspectice, THEY AREN'T TOWN
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[QUOTE]On October 08 2012 09:48 Sonic Death Monkey wrote: [QUOTE]On October 08 2012 09:04 debears wrote: As an FYI, I am done defending my actions. I will be lynched. I don't care. I'm in full attack mode.
[QUOTE]On October 08 2012 05:40 Sonic Death Monkey wrote: Steaming off a bit I have no idea what your town motivations would be, Debears. How did you switch so fast between SS being scum and onto me? Your case against starts with you saying both of us are likely scum and somehow ends with you being willing to bet anything on me being scum. It makes no sense unless it's a scum desperation move.[/QUOTE]
Where in God's name did I say you thought Boson was scummy?[/QUOTE]
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Nice attempt to lie and get away with it. Luckily I'm not retarded and I'm not desperate
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On October 08 2012 12:20 Sonic Death Monkey wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2012 12:06 debears wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On October 08 2012 09:45 Sonic Death Monkey wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2012 09:00 debears wrote:First, SDM SDM, you suddenly found me to be a townie after d2's lynch. Let me go back and examine why. + Show Spoiler +On October 03 2012 01:34 Sonic Death Monkey wrote:About the Debears case: My argument for wanting to lynch Alsn instead of Debears is that between the two of them, I think Debears' motivations are less clearly scummy. While I feel like Debears has been acting like I would expect scum to act in a lot of the situations he’s been in, that doesn't make his motivations exclusively scummy. As an example, I've found Debears smoothly jumping Kush's wagon to be suspcious, but reading Debears' filter I don't end up convinced that's the case. For this to be suspicious, it requires the assumption that he had dropped his initial suspicions. Looking back at his posts around that time, I don't think that's clear: + Show Spoiler +On September 28 2012 13:24 debears wrote: Our main goal is to lynch mafia. Yes, kush has said some scummy things. However, I'm not gonna go around parading this early saying "kush is scum. Kush is scum. OMFG".
Also, let the man defend himself instead of trying to rally everyone active behind your cause so early. If he is scummy, the votes will come.
Anyhow. I see two others who have suspiciously posted.
I'm pretty sure I've made similar arguments myself, that we gain more information by focusing on multiple suspects. The same can be said for him dropping his suspicion on Djo. Throwing out light suspcicions early on in order to get things started isn't really anti-town. Looking back at his original case, he doesn't seem to push it that hard and honestly I don't find the inconsistency of dropping it as weird as a lot of others seem to: + Show Spoiler +On September 28 2012 13:24 debears wrote:@DjorefShow nested quote +On September 28 2012 08:51 Djodref wrote: @Darthpunk
Nevermind you look just more confident to get a scum on D1 than me.
Regarding my plan, I think we need general directions to follow because of the majority lynch. It is a way to gather everybody around 2-3 suspicious players and secure a lynch. I'm assuming everyone agree on a no-lynch to be stupid.
Djoref, I don't like that statement at all. That's the second post you bring up about the likelihood of lynching a townie d1. As town, you should never have that mentality. I would probably less likely to bring this up if you were a total nooby. However, you said you "know Kush's meta" which means you have some decent understanding of the game for a noob. By saying this, it seems that you are setting yourself an excuse to be indecisive later in the day when the lynch voting comes around. Alone, it isn't much. However, your other posts don't help. Show nested quote +On September 28 2012 08:44 Djodref wrote: @Darthpunk
Considering that we are likely to lynch a town on D1, don't you think it's a lesser wrong to get rid of someone inactive ? Inactivity means no scumhunt and room to hide for the mafia...
After playing mafia last game, I feel like heavy lurking is a bad play for mafia. It puts too much pressure on you are as a scum. Instead, posting lightly without much substance is more mafia indicative. Yet again, I feel you are just looking like you are contributing without saying much. Especially when you already covered your thoughts in a previous post. Show nested quote +On September 28 2012 08:36 Djodref wrote:Hello everybody ! About meThis is my first game ever on forum but I've been playing on SC2mafia and also irl. But I've been lurking on the TL Mafia forum for a while (so I know your meta kush^^) and I decided to join this newbie game. I'm also a French guy and I live in Korea so my english is not on top and it's going to ne difficult for me to be around at deadline (5.00 am KST). Lurker policyFrom the games I've seen, unless you have a golden scumslip on d1, it's very difficult to lynch a scum the very first day. So I have no problem ending up voting for the most suspicious lurker at the end of the day. I define most suspicious lurker as a semi-lurker just trying to blend in.Day PlanI don't think to be able to be around for the first deadline so I would like to propose a day plan to secure a lynch as we are using a majority vote. First 24 hours to find lynch candidates while scumhunting and next 20 hours to decide who is the scummiest. Last 4 hours to consolidate the vote or switch to a lurker. Please discuss Notice how you are just repeating points? It isn't helpful to us. Next post Show nested quote +On September 28 2012 11:09 Djodref wrote:@Kush thank you now I won't be nk Was it also a joke ? How can you be so sure you are not going to be NKed ? A two sentence, two question post. I don't like these. They are worthless. Also, this question came quite a bit later after darthpunk already was asking questions about joking. You seem to be sheeping onto darth's case against kush. Show nested quote +On September 28 2012 11:53 Djodref wrote:On September 28 2012 11:22 kushm4sta wrote:
Because the most active townie is tunneling me?
I would also like to hear you explanations about this specific part. I don't have a read on Darth on the moment considering he has only been hard tunneling you. As you said yourself you have a scummy meta so you are an easy target for early game to put pressure on. So what makes him so much town ? Yet again, this post is just repeating what darth is saying. Another question. I don't like this. Your early posts are indicative of a semi-active scum. Sheeping, question posts, and rehashing things already said multiple times. Basically I think a lot Debears actions look scummy, but it's not farfetched to see various possible motivations in them. You can argue for a convergence of evidence type case, that when a lot of weaker evidence is pointing in the same direction, there’s often something to it. I think that’s a valid argument and barring scum slips like Kush’s that’s often how scum is found, but I don't think Debears’ story is as incoherent as Alsn’s. I think both have perfectly reasonable “scum stories”, but I find Debears' "town explanations" more believable.If I look at Debears’ story, I can see reasonable explanations for his actions. If I look at Alsn’s story, I just don’t see how I’d ever reach his conclusions. He’s defending Kush with arguments I find weird and I think those can easily be the result of artificially searching them (scum) rather than just naturally reacting (town). Alsn is also more clearly contradicting himself in my opinion. Particularly the part where, despite his introduction post d1, he’s still not liking a Kush lynch on d2 (aka Act IV). Then, your next post that talks about me more than one line. + Show Spoiler +On October 03 2012 20:43 Sonic Death Monkey wrote: I don't know what to make of Debears post-d2 posts because it's putting me in total WIFOM mode and I should probably just ignore it.
But disregarding his last posts which obviously could be the result of leveling, is his case stronger than the one I just made? Maybe it's the excitement of novelty, but really? At least I'd say Debears play has been way more pro-town. He has his scummy-looking inconsistneies for sure, but at the same time he was aggressive d1. He tried making cases, get the thread started. He took attention because he was willing to, compare that to Omni who's just cruising by. At least I encourage you to pop out of the Debears bubble we've all been in to look at it.
Also, to Debears benefit, does scum really hang on this long when faced by pages and pages of accusations? I know I gave in quickly in XXVI because it seemed pointless. And look at Kush's reaction. That's the only examples I have myself from experience, maybe Debears is different. And maybe you can question if a townie would hang in this long. At least Alsn did. Ok let's summarize your reasons for me seeming town. 1) I was aggressive d1 2) Scum doesn't hang on that long faced with pages of accusation Two pretty piss poor reasons to view me as town, especially when you say that I definitely have my scummy looking inconsistencies. Also, based on your argument earlier, right now I am town. I am being extremely aggressive and active. I have the spotlight. And I am hanging on and contributing what I can before I get lynched while looking scummy. Contradiction no? Here is the main thing that showed me that SDM is scum. The rest of the my original case is stuff I found looking back hard at his filter.The Lynch or Lack ThereofThe events leading up to the lynch are a major scumslip in my book on SDM, He shriveled up into an indecisive shell at last moment. Yet, he wanted it that way. On October 02 2012 19:55 Sonic Death Monkey wrote:On October 02 2012 18:10 DarthPunk wrote: Also. We need to consolidate on Either Alsn or Debears. I am happy with either. Would mildly prefer a debears lynch. But I think both are scummy as shit.
So. Who are we going to Consolidate onto? Z- Boson? SDM? thoughts?
I'm leaning Alsn and I'm hoping to have time to explain why with a good amount of time to the lynch. I agree about the consolidating, but I don't think we're in a hurry. With an early concensus it's easier for scum to blend in, whereas if we wait they'll potentially face the pressure of a bus or save situation (or wait until the last minute to make a decision, which is scummy looking). . However, when it comes to the situation he wants, a last minute switch, he refuses to lynch me to gain information based on the sudden vote changes, which could immensely help the town. 1) It clears the confusion over me being scum or town 2) It gives a better indication of who is scum based on the reaction to the sudden voteswing. On October 06 2012 04:22 Sonic Death Monkey wrote:How many are still around? And wtf happened to Boson? He dropped a huge ass case and then poof. Still nothing on who we should lynch. Just asking if people are around. On October 06 2012 04:16 RemedySC wrote: Well Z-bo or Debears would probably give us the most information, since Omni is likely to be modkilled.
What do you think SDM? My biggest scum read is set up for a modkill. Shady just got peeked and I wasn't entirely convinced before hand either. Next on my list would be Debears but I haven't given him much thought today until all this happened. Wasn't convinced about the Boson case and my state of mind isn't optimal for great decision making right now. I wouldn't mind a no lynch. Look hard at this post. Look really hard. He knows his biggest scum read is going to get modkilled at this point, yet his still wants to vote for him. He says he doesn't know on Shady. And finally, HE HASN"T GIVEN LYNCHING ME MUCH THOUGHT AFTER I WAS A HEADLINE ALL GAME IN THE SCUMREADS UNTIL RIGHT BEFORE LYNCH????That is bs. Total bs. He is definitely lying there. Alright. Let's summarize his lynch thoughts 1) Indecisive 2) Wants a No lynch 3) Becomes extremely confused 4) Disappears right after his WTF post Now, let's look at townie and mafia motivations 1) Town - He is actually confused. He believes that SS and Me might be town. He believes that Omni may still pop up. Problems with this thought - We all said we would be willing to switch back to Omni if he suddenly showed up to avoid modkill. But btw SS and me, town has to lynch one of us! SS might be town or might be scum. Either way, we need to clarify his alignment. The same is for me (from your guy's angle since you think I'm scum, I am town). SDM knows this. By taking out one of us, it would have led to more information for town at a stage where we can afford a mislynch. I needed 1 more vote for a lynch. Yet, SDM sits there, suddenly becoming the most indecisive player in the world despite what appeared to be a very good game in which everyone saw him as town. 2) Mafia - By keeping, SS and me(especially me) around, a mafia has the opportunity to take advantage of the confusion it will create for town. He can get away with nks that will easily be blamed on me and SS until our alignments are cleared up. He can act on the confusion in the thread and hide behind not forcing a vote (despite the fact that he stated earlier that he wanted a last minute vote situation). Finally, @SDM WHY DID YOU NOT GO OVER MY FILTER AT ALL DURING ALL OF DAY 3 WHEN YOU SAID MY ACTIONS WERE SCUMMY AND I WAS THE OTHER MAIN LYNCH CANDIDATE? WHY DID YOU NOT VOTE ME RIGHT BEFORE LYNCH, THEN DISAPPEAR AFTER A MOVE THAT WOULD BE STUPID FOR A TOWNIE TO MAKE? WHY WAS YOUR VOTE PARKED ON OMNISCIENT WHO WE KNEW WOULD GET MODKILLED? Remember, Z-Bo, SS, and RSC, mafia make mistakes too. I feel that this was a HUGE scumslip by SDM. Look at his rebuttal post. HE DOES NOT MENTION THE MAIN POINT OF MY ARGUMENT AGAINST HIM. Why? BECAUSE HE IS SCUM AND HE KNOWS I'M RIGHT. HE HAS NO DEFENSE. + Show Spoiler +On October 08 2012 04:23 Sonic Death Monkey wrote:I'm up to date again. Seriously Debears, wtf? Your case reeks of desperation. I don't get how on earth you end up getting me associated with Kush. It seems to me Kush was less inflammatory against people not cursing at him or telling him he was scum in bolded, red versals. That might have something to do with it, I don’t know. What a weird argument coming from someone who tried to avoid pushing Kush despite him looking scummy as hell. Overconfidence: I'm not sure you understood what made me suspicious of you in XXVII. XXVII stuff in here: + Show Spoiler +One part was because you made a lengthy defense of thrawn for no real reason. I think this was the legit part. The other part was something I still think was a genuine misunderstanding (thrawn's intentions), which was why I thought the case was made weaker. My #1 scum read d1 was Sharrant. I really liked that case and it had 2-3 good motivations behind it. After I was killed off n1 I just followed the game in the Obs QT. On d2 I was confident Stutters was scum. On d3 I was confident Atreides was scum. So basically all my 3 strongest reads in XXVII turned out wrong. You couldn't know this because you were still in the game so I'll give you a pass on this one, but this is all in the XXVII Obs QT. Time and indecision: Shady's post on Boson pissed me off at first because he had been dodging my questions for a long while. I responded barely reading his case because given the quality of his earlier cases I was sure it was complete crap. When Shady started replying I realized I had to go back to understand wtf he was talking about, as anyone can see my attempts in replying to him were just messed up at first. Open-ended answers: Seriosuly, what kind of argument is this? In the first bolded part it's clear I think (based on my experience) it's less likely for scum to hang on for this long. But since my experience is limited to two games I was looking for opinions from others as well. The second bolded part, I just don't think the argument they were making held much weight and it made sense to point that out. Contributions: I thought Djo came off scummy d1/n1 and I pointed it out. In the end I thought Boson's cases made more sense. Considering the validity of other cases kind of seemed to be a good idea. And I don't get why you'd say my Omni case wasn't original or at least added a lot of weight to it with new argumetns. About Alsn, wtf? My arguments against him wasn't based on him pointing out that focusing on others would be good for town, but that he was directly defending him (read my post again) using weird arguments. I by no means "cleared" you because you suggested focusing on others, but at least it could have town motivations. Indecisive again: I was being indecisive here for sure. How on earth wouldn't I be? If you go read my d3 filter I basically never considered you for lynch d3. I was highly suspicious of Omni and Djo, quite suspicious of Shady and had moments of doubts wrt Boson. In the end Omni was likely to head for modkill, Djo just claimed cop, Shady had been peeked and I decided the Boson case was weak. All of a sudden all my d3 considerations had gone out the window. And at this point you expect me to me mr decisive? Last time I pushed a last minute switch I hadn't thought over I caused the mislynch of Drazak. When i got back all hell had broken loose. The only thing I had time to react to was that Boson had seemingly become a lynching target and claimed vet. Lynching him made no sense at all. And somewhere you also argue that my recent absence from the thread is somehow scummy? Gah, how is all this not just an act of desperation? ##Vote Debears I have made big cases on every single person in this game besides Lesrah and RSC. I have not shared most of them with you guys. Why? Because I only present ones that make the most sense to me. OUT OF ALL MY CASES THIS GAME, THIS ONE MAKES THE MOST SENSE. Jesus, read my filter. The second post of mine is arguing why I think Omni is more suspicious, not proclaiming you as town. I also said we needed to focus on others because we had been discussing you for a week. Show nested quote +On October 04 2012 20:59 Sonic Death Monkey wrote: We've been discussing the Debears case for almost a week now, it's about time we focus on others. I'll get back with thoughts when we're getting closer to EOD. I never did, because when Shady stumbles into the thread with all kind of messy posts, I got more suspicious of him. Show nested quote +On October 05 2012 20:44 Sonic Death Monkey wrote: Besides I'm more suspicious of this Shady guy than I am of Debears atm. I also had to make up my mind on Boson because the final Shady case made kind of some kind of sense (so i checked the d2 voting and after that considered it weak). Djo came off as weird as well d3, I didn't know what to make of him jumping on the Shady's silly ideas instantly. And he was being quite insistant on his town read on Omni eventhough I found that case really good (finally giving in and voting on him because it'd make him post better). I didn't know what to make of that and closer to EOD I checked Djo's filter as suggested by Boson. This is where my focus was. When it all finally blew up with the cop claim, I had put no focus on you whatsoever and was quite happy to make sure my #1 scum read would get killed off. If he didn't flip red we'd still be in a good d4 situation where we actually could think things over instead of having a repeat of the Drazak fuck up. And I addressed this in my last post, I just didn't spell it all out in detail because it's all in my fucking filter that you've supposedly read. This is a bs excuse. You thought my actions were scummy, yet you never in d3 looked at my filter? What kind of scumhunting is that? The only reason i don't check someones filter at least once a cycle is if i am pretty sure they are town. Why in the hell would you not check my filter if you are town, if you found me scummy, and if you are actually scumhunting. Hell even when i had a town read on you i checked your filter from this game and other games. You're argument makes no sense from a townies perspective. You're no lynch makes no sense from a townie perspective. I'm getting tired of this. I don't have the time to check everyone's filter every cycle. Who the fuck has the time to do that? I try to focus on what is important, which was peolpe we hadn't discussed for a week straight. I'm trying to look at townie motivations for what you're doing, but I can see none. If you really are townie, where the hell did your SS suspicions go? The trap you set? Or the fact that he was completely missing from the last minute lynch talk? Him leaving his vote on Boson then disappearing, nearly causing a mislynch, convinced you he was townie?
Another "i don't have time excuse". Its not that hard to loom over a persons filter and have a base judgement on whether they are acting scummy or not. Why do you keep making poor excuses for your lack of effort to look at someone that almost everyone thought was scummy? You know who do that? Mafia.
As i said earlier, I'm getting lynched. I don't care and I'm not explaining my actions. You are scum and yiu need to be lynched after i am for town to win
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O.o that was ss. Ill conced on th zbo thing. However, ss will be in th spotlight, considering he is the other main lynch candidate. But you haven't had it. And your scum defense of not looking at my filter and not voting me are terrible
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Wow shady. Are you even reading the thread?
You dont find sdms actions suspicious at all?
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Really? The zbo part yeah. Not the part about the scumhunting and the no lynch suggestion.
Have you guys forgotten there isn't a medic? So the less lynches the mafia has to commit to, the more easy nks they get?
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If I could save time in a bottle The first thing that I'd like to do Is to save every day Till Eternity passes away Just to spend them with you
Just a pre death thought I wanted to share with all of you.
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Its null leaning scummy. He said early in the game he wasnt going to lurk. Then he went ahead and did it anyways
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Gg guys. Ill explain why i went ape shit today after the game.
Gl town
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@SDM
Hell of a game as scum. Yeah if you lynched me d3 you would've most likely had it in the bag. I was actually afk during the last 10-20 minutes of that lynch (or hour and 20) so I was fully expecting to be lynched. When it was you that didn't put in the final vote, everything just clicked cuz I know you are way better than that as town
Also, the open ended answers thing was something I believed I notice in ver's XXX analysis. On the posts I quoted you just ran in a circle with your thought and didn't really make a statement. I might be wrong on this. Marv or Hapa any input on that point?
@everyone
GG! GJ DP (I'm still pissed at myself since you caught onto kush way before me :/ Hell of a job with the d1 lynch), Z-Bo (way to close it out), and the rest of town!
Thanks to prplhz and thrawn for hosting. Thanks marv for the advice!
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Awww rly? I just signed up for bugs mini
Maybe ill just concentrate less on the newbie
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On October 11 2012 00:17 Sonic Death Monkey wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2012 22:19 marvellosity wrote: I would like to note that SDM's bus of kush isn't as 'obvious' as it may seem in hindsight.
Especially in newbie games, scum players have a really hard time bussing players decisively (or at all). And even in relation to non-newbie games, the early timing of the bus was impressive and something many scum players aren't capable of.
Good scum play is often fast thinking and decisive, like that bus. The beautiful flip side to this is SDM's actions at the no-lynch where he was confused and indecisive and got caught for it. Yeah, my bus probably wasn't too bad. After I get caught doing something really stupid d3 it's easy to go back and make up a good scum rationale for everything I did. I feel like it's equal part logic and confirmation bias, kind of like how Debears and Boson interpreted my absence from the thread: 1) Debears used it to argue I was really scared2) Boson used it to argue I was really confidentThey make the same observation, their analyses of it are polar opposite but their conclusions are still the same: I'm scum. In reality I never avoided the thread on purpose (at least not for the long stretches of time in question).
I wasn't (at least intentionally) saying that you were scared. I found it awkward (if you were town) to suddenly disappear after a giant amount of confusion without explaining why you did what you did, especially when Z-Bo called you out for bad town play.
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And yeah the whole town cred for the vote is just inexperience.
I figured early on that the first 3 voting for kush (first 2 considering darth revoked his vote) wouldn't have decided to bus kush so early since kush could play off it as his meta
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A Second case on Djo
Since my first case, Djo hasn't done much to help my read on him. In fact, after rereading his filter again, I'd say my scumread on him is even stronger.
Points in the original case/cases
1) Stated and Acted as though he had a town read on me day 1, then denies it when pressured by Rad 2) His two scumslips (slips as he calls them) - Dau0d town comment and the slip when talking about Alsn's fOS 3) Wanting me to "Take care of Rad" day 1
The Day 1 lynch
First, I want to point out his indecisiveness and apparent apathy to who he wanted lynched.
Djo's first actual pursuit was Inig. He was pressing on Inig pretty well. However, when asked who he would want to lynch, he says Sylver (with his vote on Inig)
On October 27 2012 00:51 Djodref wrote:Show nested quote +On October 27 2012 00:42 kushm4sta wrote: More on daoud: He seems much more careful about what he says this game than last game. Last games his posts were like WTF is this weird guy talking about. This game they look like he doesn't want to catch anyone's attention.
Why we shouldn't lynch djodref today: He does look pretty scummy. But I don't see how anyone can have a lot of certainty in that read. Combination of high activity and low certainty means he should not lynch him. Also realize that djodref is in a position where he NEEDS to evolve his meta whether he is town or scum. His first game he played as a noob, understandable because it was his first game. His second game, he pretended to be a noob as a scum strat. I think showing that he is better than the newb he pretended to be last game would be the natural play for town djodref, and also scum djodref trying to appear as town djodref.
Djo: who out of the active players seems scummiest to you? Also why did you bring up how you want to lynch a lurker without even trying to pressure your scumreads? @KushDebears and Rad are looking quite ok. I'm leaning town for both of them. I'm waiting for Cheese to post what he has to say about me because I'm still null on him. I didn't like some posts from sylver but he had some nice reactions during our latest fight. I need some time to look at dandel. I didn't like the way he voted Inig, but he said he was not sure even. I would say sylver right now... But I've been spending too much time defending myself. I need to calm down and re-read some filters for a while.
A couple of posts later, he unvotes and states why he doesn't want to lynch Inig suddenly.
On October 27 2012 01:03 Djodref wrote: Regarding an Inig's lynch, I'm not comfortable with it...
In my opinion, he had a positive response after my case against him. I doubt that he could be a scum after that. His role claim was looking really sincere. If he can improve his presence in the thread and his scumhunting, I don't want to lynch him. I'm going to unvote him. I would cast my vote on Roco or imcasey if they magically reappear. I'll wake up early tomorrow to see if the bandwagon is still against me or not.
If you are town, do not sheep and cast your vote against me. Read my filter and make your own opinion by yourself. You are going to feel some heat if you cast your vote too lightly because I'm going to flip green.
I'm sorry but I need some sleep guys
## Unvote
That's quite the turnaround after the pressure and vote
On October 27 2012 08:20 Djodref wrote: @debears
No, I'm not comfortable with any of the lynches to be honest. I'm looking at their filter over and over again and try to find some little clues... Regarding Inig, I should vote him if I was only a rational machine (no scumhunting at the beginning, wishy washy on Cheese, voting imcasey unexpectedly, the slip you have found, etc...) but I feel him as sincere in his posts.a
Not sure why he claimed though.
Regarding daoud, I have no reasons to vote for him at the exception of his hasty vote.
His only reason for not voting Inig was that Inig seemed "sincere". In fact, he said that it would be rational to lynch Inig based on his posting. That one post is a huge contradiction. Notice how during his time, he puts suspicion on Sylver.
Also, notice the timing of the unvote. He unvoted when there were other people agreeing with his case. That's really weird combined with the "he's sincere" reasoning on Inig.
Djo's approach on Dau0d
Despite Djo's suspicions on Inig and Sylver, he ends up voting Dau0d. Why? Lets see
On October 27 2012 08:56 Djodref wrote: ## Vote daoud
Because his involvement in this game has not been great so far...
Not the greatest reasoning. He does provide some reasoning right after though.
On October 27 2012 08:56 Mr. Cheesecake wrote:Show nested quote +On October 27 2012 08:46 debears wrote: Bad word choice on my part. Bad = weak in my post.
And the same points on inig and dauod. 1) semi lurker 2) town reads/ percent town reads 3) generally blending in
Give me Allow me to ameliorate for you, sir. 1.) Inig was a semi lurker to begin with. As of late, he has been posting more and with greater content. Da0ud, on the other hand, has contributed much less and is still lurking. 2.) Let's look at both of their percentage town reads. Inigs:Show nested quote +On October 26 2012 16:17 Inigmaticalism wrote: I would label Djo as like 70% town. Hes been consistent and contributing. I think hes gone after me too long to be mafia. He has talked an awful lot though. Its probably more likely, with all his questions and style of scumhunting, thats hes a vigi or SK or something like that, seeing who he can get lynched (who he thinks is scum if hes vigi, etc), and then who he cant hes found his night targets. Just a thought.
Da0ud's:Show nested quote +On October 26 2012 22:41 da0ud wrote: Talking about smileyDjo he has put a lot of pressure on people. Asking open questions etc. For having played a game with him where he played to nice lovable newbie card, I believe he is trying to step up and actually be a leader for town. I put him 90% town.
Inig has more reason for considering Djo town, and puts it at 70% (leaning town). He says he's been consistent, obviously posting alot, and going after him of all people. He likes this, and even offers some counter-roles that he could be instead of mafia. Da0ud on the other hand only says "hey, he's asking questions, must be 90% (almost definitely town)" I find Da0uds reasons for thinking Djo town less plausible than Inigs, and he almost considers him town. 3.) Inig has been more distinguished in asking questions / contributing. His theory on Dandel is intriguing and unique, and something I may want to follow up on in the future. His vote of imcasey and Dandel is anything BUT blending in.
Notice his reasoning. It's literally almost the same for Inig. Yet, he feels that Inig was "more distinguished in asking questions/contributing". I don't get it. Also, he didn't think Dau0d's meta was different than Dau0d's town game when he posted this earlier.
On October 27 2012 00:53 Djodref wrote: Regarding daoud, I don't want to lynch him because he has reacted quite fast and naturally to my slip. Him posting some nonsense about the possibility of a SK just after totally fits his meta.
He needs to post a lot more though...
He flip-flopped onto Dau0d after kush's case while spreading suspicion onto 2 other plays (slyverfyre and Inig). His reasoning for moving his suspicion around was poor at the best. To me, it seems like he didn't care who got lynched
Hammering CheeseCake for the Switched Vote
This was posted after the lynch
On October 27 2012 17:53 Djodref wrote:Show nested quote +On October 27 2012 08:20 Mr. Cheesecake wrote: Okay I just got back, and will be here pre and post lynch.
My thoughts on the current state of affairs. It seems the lynch is in favor of Inig, but Da0ud following close behind. My vote on Djo is obviously not doing any good. I still consider him suspicious, and he is by no means off the hook. My efforts right now are better spent deciding who is a better lynch candidate: Da0ud or Inig.
/snip
@ CheeseAt this point, were you considering that daoud and Inig were better candidate than me ? You have been suspecting me for quite a long time D1 and you suddenly prefer to lynch daoud because some replacement came in and told you he was scummy ? You alsmost didn't consider him at all until that point yet you have no problem with lynching him instead of your top scumread (which was me) ? I'm pretty surprised that you didn't try to push my lynch.
Isn't this similar to what Djo did? Yet Djo is calling him out for it? Djo had no considerations of Dau0d until the kush case was posted.
On October 27 2012 23:19 Djodref wrote:"That being said, you were my best scum read at the time; but there was no chance of you being lynched." @ CheeseHere is a quote from you. Show nested quote +On October 26 2012 12:50 Mr. Cheesecake wrote: /snip The constant asking for info on Ingi / diverting attention, his useless "are you mafia?" question that I pointed out earlier, the inability to adequately answer some of the accusations/questions thrown at him. It doesn't add up. Actually, it does add up. I'm thinking he's scum. I've had a FoS on you for quite some time now, Djodref. Time to upgrade it.
##Vote: Djodref As you can see, I was a little more than your best scumread. Nevertheless, you gave little to no protest about lynching daoud or ini over me. Big scumtell in my book. Have a look at debears reactions when people started to vote daoud. He was trying to push his case until the end.This commitment is a big towntell. Where was your reaction when you came back to thhe tread and realized that a lynch on me was "not possible" ? No protest, no comments about other people being stupid or whatever, not trying to push my lynch. And you proceeding to compare the percentage daoud and Ini were giving for their townread on me to decide who to lynch between the two... do you have any comments to do on this ? FoS Cheese
Yet again, a FOS for hypocritical reasoning. Not only did Djo drop his top scumread for poor reasoning, he voted for Dau0d for poor reasoning. And now he's spreading suspicion on CheeseCake.
This post, however, is the kicker
On October 27 2012 08:00 Djodref wrote: @ Cheese
What the fuck are you doing with your vote still on my back ? Come in the thread and choose who you want to lynch today between daoud and Ini. Tell us your reasons about it !
Djo told him to change his vote in the first place!!!!!!!!!! Then, he tries to accuse Cheese of scum since Cheese did it???? Wow.
Meta
Djo has little meta to go on with only 2 games. However, there are differences from his town game and scum game. These differences, related to this game, are not damning by any means, but do support that Djo could be scum.
1) Djo is capable of being active as scum. His filter was roughly 9 pgs as scum in Looney
2)His case format this game compared to his other games
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=372945¤tpage=58#1147 - Game as scum http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=374466¤tpage=23#441 - this game
Look at the shocking similarities. Now, this could be how he likes to post now, since this is only his 3rd game.
However, in looking at his first newbie as cop, no posts have the same format (Correct me if I'm wrong on this Djo)
3) Personality - Djo's personality this game is similar to his other games as cop and mafia. Take out the newbie card play, and he sounds the same in all 3. Thus, his personality is a null tell, but it mean that he can be mafia
A Common Fallacy
I think this game has fallen into the trap of activity = town. That is not always the case. Take a long hard look at Djo's filter and this case. His filter is huge and it was a bitch to go through. Mafia can hide in a big filter.
Djo is my number 2 scum read besides Dandel right now. I still need to see if Dandel even comes back (and defends himself properly + has something to contribute) before I would think of voting Djo.
Let me know if you need clarification on anything. Reading Djo's filter + writing out the case = sucks
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omg i did it tooo...fuck me sideways
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